Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby pgbhat » 01 Dec 2012 11:03

Among the Non-Believers
At the Gurdwara Dera Sahib in Lahore, a similarly clad official comes and stands next to me while I have a conversation with 17-year-old Mahinder Pal Singh, a first year pre-medical student of Lahore’s Government College. He has got this far because he opted out of the local Urdu medium school and joined the English-medium Al Muarif Higher Secondary School. He secured admission through a 5 per cent quota in colleges for minorities. He has been provided free accommodation by the Gurdwara; it has over 30 rooms for Sikh students who need a place to stay in Lahore to pursue higher education. Only three are occupied. He has barely begun talking about the difficulties of his friends in seeking admission under the quota when the man in white appears. “It is Allah’s grace that Sikhs and Hindus are treated so well in Pakistan,” says Mahinder Pal suddenly, alerting me to the intruder’s presence.
Sham has never been to school. Nor have his siblings. But he earns well, Rs 9,000 a month, of which he gives Rs 500 to St Paul’s Church in Green Town, nearly an hour’s drive from Gulberg. There is a bigger cluster of Muslim homes in Raiwind further away from the city towards Kasoor. Sham says he mingles with people of his community on Sundays, but his friends are mostly Muslims, “by Allah’s grace”, he repeats. He faces trouble for not being Muslim, he says, only when he is found out. “Then they say I should convert, they don’t want to break bread with a non-Muslim. But I usually never let anyone know I am not Muslim,” he says and leaves.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby SSridhar » 01 Dec 2012 11:19

putnanja wrote:The nuclear threat by Shahibzada to Gujral ...


From the link above ...

...
But at one point, many years later, after a great deal of cajoling and pleading, Gujral admitted to having had a curious conversation with his Pakistani counterpart Sahibzada Yakub Khan. Sahibzada had come to India ostensibly to defuse tensions. But he said, as they walked down the South Block corridor, “Gujral sahib, this will not be like any of the decent, clean wars we have fought in the past. Your rivers, mountains, cities, will all be on fire, a fire of the kind you cannot imagine, and on the first day itself.” Gujral admitted he was taken aback. But he said he gathered his wits and replied: “Aisi baatein na karein toh achcha hai, Yakub sahib... kyunki humne bhi unheen daryaon ka paani piya hai jinka aapne...” The closest translation would be, keep these threats to yourself, because you will be paid back in kind.

Shahibzada Yaqub Khan did not just stop with threatening IK Gujral, thereby showing him how his 'policy of unilateral accommodation', popularly called Gujral Doctrine, lay in tatters; but, Yaqub Khan also went ahead with issuing the same threat to the Indian PM VP Singh himself during the same visit. Thus, the threat of retaliation delivered by IK Gujral had no effect on Yaqub Khan. Of course, we know the bluster of the Pakistanis but the timid approach by Indian leaders, such as Panchsheel and the five pillars of the Gural Doctrine (Why this fetish with number 5 for us Indians ? Why not 7 or 10, for a change ?), encouraged the Pakistanis not to take the threats seriously. Of course, when they went too far, they were smacked; but that's another issue altogether.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby partha » 01 Dec 2012 11:22

MurthyB wrote:The biggest fragment weighing 187 kilograms fell on a ground in Allah Jurio Lund village, 30 kilometres from Dadu. Other pieces fell on Pir Mashaikh, Shehak Rodnani and Khandhani villages.

Clarification from ISPR -

http://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/main.asp?o ... r_link2209

A spokesman of ISPR has said that the Hatf V (Ghauri) missile test conducted on Wednesday was a complete success. The missile during its flight remained within the designated flight path and corridor. The metal parts found in a remote area of Dadu, as reported in media today, were part of the motor body, which separated from the missile as planned, well within the safety corridor.

8)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby pgbhat » 01 Dec 2012 11:28

SSridhar wrote:Shahibzada Yaqub Khan did not just stop with threatening IK Gujral, thereby showing him how his 'policy of unilateral accommodation', popularly called Gujral Doctrine, lay in tatters; but, Yaqub Khan also went ahead with issuing the same threat to the Indian PM VP Singh himself during the same visit. Thus, the threat of retaliation delivered by IK Gujral had no effect on Yaqub Khan. Of course, we know the bluster of the Pakistanis but the timid approach by Indian leaders, such as Panchsheel and the five pillars of the Gural Doctrine (Why this fetish with number 55 for us Indians ? Why not 7 or 10, for a change ?), encouraged the Pakistanis not to take the threats seriously. Of course, when they went too far, they were smacked; but that's another issue altogether.


speaking of Yakub Khan...from here
Asghar Khan was invited and he turned up. Unexpectedly Cowasjee, who was staying at Asghar Khan’s house for a brief visit to Islamabad, came with him.

Cowasjee was dressed in a long robe with a dazzling red hat. Together with his cane, which appeared like a spear, he looked like the Roman emperor I had seen in Ben Hur as a kid.

Cowasjee spotted Sahibzada Yaqub Ali Khan, who was chatting with another guest, and suddenly froze.

Cowasjee pointed his cane at Sahibzada Yaqub Ali Khan and said: "Yeh sala maader&@@d kaisay ata hai idhur. yeh sala to zia ka aadmi hai...uss ka chumcha tha, washington main baith kay sala aisa jhoot bolta tha aur logon ko marwata tha".

[How come this mother&@@@ dare come here. This Sala was Zia’s man…was his pawn, used to sit in Washington telling lies and would orchestrate murders here]

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Baikul » 01 Dec 2012 11:32

SSridhar wrote:
From the link above ...

...
But at one point, many years later, after a great deal of cajoling and pleading, Gujral admitted to having had a curious conversation with his Pakistani counterpart Sahibzada Yakub Khan. Sahibzada had come to India ostensibly to defuse tensions. But he said, as they walked down the South Block corridor, “Gujral sahib, this will not be like any of the decent, clean wars we have fought in the past. Your rivers, mountains, cities, will all be on fire, a fire of the kind you cannot imagine, and on the first day itself.” Gujral admitted he was taken aback. But he said he gathered his wits and replied: “Aisi baatein na karein toh achcha hai, Yakub sahib... kyunki humne bhi unheen daryaon ka paani piya hai jinka aapne...” The closest translation would be, keep these threats to yourself, because you will be paid back in kind.



I'm assuming that the information above is true. If so, I think that Pakistani leaders may have judged some of our political masters as effete/ ineffectual based on their exchanges, leading to perpetuation of the 'weak Yindoo' myth in that s*it-for-brains country. And hence trouble down the line in the form of, among other things, misadventures.

I mean come on, the asymmetry of the exchange is astonishing. Some jerk-off is threatening you that “.............Your rivers, mountains, cities, will all be on fire, a fire of the kind you cannot imagine, and on the first day itself.” and, as a national leader, your response if “Aisi baatein na karein toh achcha hai, Yakub sahib... kyunki humne bhi unheen daryaon ka paani piya hai jinka aapne...”?

Humne bhi unheen daryaon ka...FFS? Staggering weak response.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby menon s » 01 Dec 2012 11:47

IK Gujral------------------ Did have a change of heart vis a vis Pakistan- says Kuldip nayyar!
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/i ... 151362.ece
His tenure as Prime Minister, although only for one short year, shows how he went out of the way to accommodate neighbouring countries. Towards the end of his life, he was disillusioned with Pakistan. He said that he wasted his life pursuing the mirage of building bridges with Islamabad and had realised rather late in the day that Pakistani leaders were anti-India to the core, never wanting to bury the hatchet.


Perhaps on the day the poor bloke died, lets have a litle empathy for person who was born in 20`s in Lahore. His thought process imagined, love and a reconcilliation with a culture thats sadly non existent in todays Pakistan.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby devesh » 01 Dec 2012 11:51

^^^
in American parlance, these miraculous changes of heart which only happen after one is out of power and safely tucked into retirement, are called "legacy matters". actions are what matter. these so called "regretful realizations" are useless and meaningless in judging a leader's legacy when he was in charge. because they have no bearing on what he/she did when they were in power.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Anujan » 01 Dec 2012 12:12

Baikul wrote:I'm assuming that the information above is true. If so, I think that Pakistani leaders may have judged some of our political masters as effete/ ineffectual based on their exchanges, leading to perpetuation of the 'weak Yindoo' myth in that s*it-for-brains country. And hence trouble down the line in the form of, among other things, misadventures.

I mean come on, the asymmetry of the exchange is astonishing. Some jerk-off is threatening you that “.............Your rivers, mountains, cities, will all be on fire, a fire of the kind you cannot imagine, and on the first day itself.” and, as a national leader, your response if “Aisi baatein na karein toh achcha hai, Yakub sahib... kyunki humne bhi unheen daryaon ka paani piya hai jinka aapne...”?

Humne bhi unheen daryaon ka...FFS? Staggering weak response.


I dont know how much of that is true, but let us not give it a lot of importance. My argument is two fold:

1. Whether India possesses overwhelming superiority or not, Pakis are still going to claim 1 TFTA = 10 SDRE. This is after we twisted their chaddis in 48, 65 and 71 (I am not counting Kargil, this episode was pre-Kargil). Whether our leaders dhoti shiver or not, it is in the Paki mind that they are central asian arabs who rode in horses. Reality does not matter to them -- if they were as honorable as the Japanese, the top generals who lost the 71 war would have unsheathed their swords and committed harakiri and died with honor -- rather than setting up lorry companies, breakfast cereal brands and sugar factories for cushy retirement. But still the Paki army talks about H&D. That ought to be the world's biggest joke ever.

2. Whether they accept Indian superiority or not, it is in the Paki mind to hate and train terrorists. I am increasingly convinced that they dont hate India is a special way -- they just hate everyone including themselves and we are closest to them. Well, technically they are closest to themselves and technically Pakistan perpetrated violence is worst in Pakistan, followed by Afghanistan, followed by India. The farther you go from Pakistan, lesser Pakistani terrorism becomes -- but even South Korea, US, Australia, Russia and Norway (yes Norway) are recipients of Pakistaniyat. It is not a question of how much they hate them, it is just a question of how easy it is to go there.

So in essence: Donot associate dhoti shivering with Paki bravado, and do not associate Paki bravado with Paki terrorism.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby johneeG » 01 Dec 2012 12:15

devesh wrote:^^^
in American parlance, these miraculous changes of heart which only happen after one is out of power and safely tucked into retirement, are called "legacy matters". actions are what matter. these so called "regretful realizations" are useless and meaningless in judging a leader's legacy when he was in charge. because they have no bearing on what he/she did when they were in power.


Saar ji,
I agree with you in general but these 'realizations' are not 'useless and meaningless'. They are quite a good propaganda material waiting to be used. For instance, MMS should be told that even Gujral finally realized pakis cannot live peacefully with India, but his delayed enlightenment proved very costly to India. So, MMS must not travel in the same path.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
- Albert Einstein


Of course, this 'realization' will not be used in that way. Instead, this bit will be used to resurrect Gujral as a misguided statesman(I have a feeling that MMS will follow the same trajectory).

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby SSridhar » 01 Dec 2012 12:27

menon s wrote:. . . lets have a litle empathy for person who was born in 20`s in Lahore. His thought process imagined, love and a reconcilliation with a culture thats sadly non existent in todays Pakistan.

Menon ji, that is what intrigues me. He had seen better days and he had also seen the worst days of Partition. He himself came as a refugee, didn't he ? After that, he should have followed the Pakistani perfidy closely as the decades went by. As he became an MP and assumed positions in the INC, he has seen in close quarters, as part of Ms. Gandhi's cabinets, later under VP Singh and then as the PM all the duplicitous nature of Pakistan. Do you mean to say that as a modern day avtar of Buddha or Jesus, he showered love and affection on a country that had inflicted so much misery on us, just because, and only because, his place of birth happened to be that wretched country ? Was he an Indian Prime Minister or a Corporator of Lahore ? And, it took him so long, almost sixty years to understand Pakistan's infinite hatred and enduring hostility with Hindu India ?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Dec 2012 12:36

johneeG wrote:
devesh wrote:^^^
in American parlance, these miraculous changes of heart which only happen after one is out of power and safely tucked into retirement, are called "legacy matters". actions are what matter. these so called "regretful realizations" are useless and meaningless in judging a leader's legacy when he was in charge. because they have no bearing on what he/she did when they were in power.


Saar ji,
I agree with you in general but these 'realizations' are not 'useless and meaningless'. They are quite a good propaganda material waiting to be used. For instance, MMS should be told that even Gujral finally realized pakis cannot live peacefully with India, but his delayed enlightenment proved very costly to India. So, MMS must not travel in the same path.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
- Albert Einstein


Of course, this 'realization' will not be used in that way. Instead, this bit will be used to resurrect Gujral as a misguided statesman(I have a feeling that MMS will follow the same trajectory).


To even think that MMS has such independence to make decesions is a folly, he does as he is ordered and is a compliant beuracrat who takes the blame. And MMS family is in the USA, and has shown emotional attachment only to Pakistani Punjab and not say Assam where is elected to the Rajya Sabha. so he is going to hardly care if his decesions prove costly to the nation.

Heck the nation reversed POTA in 2004 and yesterday passed amendments to the Terrorist Act yesterday which give far more power to Anti - terror investigators. Does anyone in this nation care how many people have lost limbs and lives and how many families shatterred by the 2004 decesion and proganda associated with it that has helped in the formation of 2 Central Govts.

I think the basic problem is the lack of transperency on the reasons why our Elite and leaders want this people to people contact with pakistan, I suspect it because many of them don't share a vision of strong, independant and happy India which the Aam Aadmi in India envisions but are more driven by private interests.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Baikul » 01 Dec 2012 13:34

Anujan wrote:I dont know how much of that is true, but let us not give it a lot of importance. My argument is two fold:

1. Whether India possesses overwhelming superiority or not, Pakis are still going to claim 1 TFTA = 10 SDRE. This is after we twisted their chaddis in 48, 65 and 71 (I am not counting Kargil, this episode was pre-Kargil). Whether our leaders dhoti shiver or not, it is in the Paki mind that they are central asian arabs who rode in horses. Reality does not matter to them -- if they were as honorable as the Japanese, the top generals who lost the 71 war would have unsheathed their swords and committed harakiri and died with honor -- rather than setting up lorry companies, breakfast cereal brands and sugar factories for cushy retirement. But still the Paki army talks about H&D. That ought to be the world's biggest joke ever.

2. Whether they accept Indian superiority or not, it is in the Paki mind to hate and train terrorists. I am increasingly convinced that they dont hate India is a special way -- they just hate everyone including themselves and we are closest to them. Well, technically they are closest to themselves and technically Pakistan perpetrated violence is worst in Pakistan, followed by Afghanistan, followed by India. The farther you go from Pakistan, lesser Pakistani terrorism becomes -- but even South Korea, US, Australia, Russia and Norway (yes Norway) are recipients of Pakistaniyat. It is not a question of how much they hate them, it is just a question of how easy it is to go there.

So in essence: Donot associate dhoti shivering with Paki bravado, and do not associate Paki bravado with Paki terrorism.


We agree on the Pakistani mindset; several months ago I had proposed a 'Separation' and 'Divorce' framework as a tool to analyze it, well the Pakjabi mindset at least. In short, the Pakjabi mind looks at the world, rejects it and proceeds to divorce it- often violently. From 1947 (Indic roots) to the Times Square bomber (US society), the process is inevitable for that country and its citizens both. 1971, then the violence on Shias and Ahmadis was/is the society looking at itself, rejecting and divorcing important segments. The TTP, the the green on green infighting- are most dangerous for them because they indicate Pakjabis looking inwards and rejecting what they see there. I found that when I think of Pakjabis in this way it helps me to explain a lot of their behaviours.

However, on the subject of this discussion, I do think that their leadership does not easily learn lessons because their structures (political, bureaucratic etc) allow them to avert responsibility. The mistakes of the past are committed time and again because they do not learn to be wary. And if their society does not teach their leaders lessons, surely we can try. And if we can't do that, which is possible, at the very least we should not reinforce their prejudices with inane/ weak responses such as the one Gujral gave. Yakub Khan may have forgotten what happened at Kargil; but I'm sure he would not have forgotten how he "told off" a baniya Indian leader, and passed that on to the next generation of macho Pakis all ready to go.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Anujan » 01 Dec 2012 13:41

Reminds me of a story from panchatantra. A scorpion wants to cross a river and asks a frog for help. The frog refuses and says : what if you sting me ? The scorpion says: if I sting you, both of us will drown and die. Convinced, the frog takes the scorpion on its back. In the middle of the river, while crossing, the scorpion stings the frog. As they both are drowning, the frog asks: why did you sting me? Now we both will die. The scorpion replies: it is my nature.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby member_23629 » 01 Dec 2012 14:39

devesh wrote:^^^ in American parlance, these miraculous changes of heart which only happen after one is out of power and safely tucked into retirement, are called "legacy matters". actions are what matter. these so called "regretful realizations" are useless and meaningless in judging a leader's legacy when he was in charge. because they have no bearing on what he/she did when they were in power.


This is called wisdom on death bed -- it is of no use to anyone because by then, these dudes would have already spent their lives creating havoc on their own people. Nehru had the light bulb moment about China on his death bed, Gujaral had his on Pakistan. Both kicked the bucket afterwards. These kind of people spend their whole life living in delusions. Strangely, this kind of surreal detachment from reality occurs only to Hindus, never to others. It is a mystery why these Hindus remain so blind to the obvious -- but they are masters at manoevering themselves into influential positions using every trick in the book (like Chacha used Gandhi as godfather to promote his personal interests).
Last edited by member_23629 on 01 Dec 2012 14:44, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Kashi » 01 Dec 2012 14:41

I wonder when will Kuldip Nayyar (if he will ever) have his moment of epiphany.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Dec 2012 15:03

varunkumar wrote:
devesh wrote:^^^ in American parlance, these miraculous changes of heart which only happen after one is out of power and safely tucked into retirement, are called "legacy matters". actions are what matter. these so called "regretful realizations" are useless and meaningless in judging a leader's legacy when he was in charge. because they have no bearing on what he/she did when they were in power.


This is called wisdom on death bed -- it is of no use to anyone because by then, these dudes would have already spent their lives creating havoc on their own people. Nehru had the light bulb moment about China on his death bed, Gujaral had his on Pakistan. Both kicked the bucket afterwards. These kind of people spend their whole life living in delusions. Strangely, this kind of surreal detachment from reality occurs only to Hindus, never to others. It is a mystery why these Hindus remain so blind to the obvious -- but they are masters at manoevering themselves into influential positions using every trick in the book (like Chacha used Gandhi as godfather to promote his personal interests).


Worse see the Foreign office thread, Gujaral had full knowledge of pakistani Perifidy in 1990 and yet followed the doctrine in 1997, I suspect again he was more of order follower like MMS not a decesion maker.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby JE Menon » 01 Dec 2012 15:57

>>it is in the Paki mind to hate and train terrorists. I am increasingly convinced that they dont hate India is a special way -- they just hate everyone including themselves and we are closest to them. Well, technically they are closest to themselves and technically Pakistan perpetrated violence is worst in Pakistan, followed by Afghanistan, followed by India. The farther you go from Pakistan, lesser Pakistani terrorism becomes -- but even South Korea, US, Australia, Russia and Norway (yes Norway) are recipients of Pakistaniyat. It is not a question of how much they hate them, it is just a question of how easy it is to go there.

A very useful observation and masterfully put. Simple language and easily understandable. I cannot see any reason why this clipping of text shouldn't find its way to various applicable fora, newspaper comments, etc :) - provided Anujan is OK with it.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby SSridhar » 01 Dec 2012 16:08

Anujan wrote:. . . but even South Korea, US, Australia, Russia and Norway (yes Norway) are recipients of Pakistaniyat.

This Terror Map has not been updated for a while, but it captures the above.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Johann » 01 Dec 2012 16:30

SSridhar wrote:
menon s wrote:. . . lets have a litle empathy for person who was born in 20`s in Lahore. His thought process imagined, love and a reconcilliation with a culture thats sadly non existent in todays Pakistan.

Menon ji, that is what intrigues me. He had seen better days and he had also seen the worst days of Partition. He himself came as a refugee, didn't he ? After that, he should have followed the Pakistani perfidy closely as the decades went by. As he became an MP and assumed positions in the INC, he has seen in close quarters, as part of Ms. Gandhi's cabinets, later under VP Singh and then as the PM all the duplicitous nature of Pakistan. Do you mean to say that as a modern day avtar of Buddha or Jesus, he showered love and affection on a country that had inflicted so much misery on us, just because, and only because, his place of birth happened to be that wretched country ? Was he an Indian Prime Minister or a Corporator of Lahore ? And, it took him so long, almost sixty years to understand Pakistan's infinite hatred and enduring hostility with Hindu India ?


I think its precisely the historical perspective of inter-communal relations in Punjab before the Pakistan movement that fueled his hope. Wasn't there a feeling that the real support for Pakistan was in Muslim minority provinces like UP, not Bengal and Punjab which were reluctant late comers? That in the much same way that India could build bridges with Bangladesh, it could also build bridges with a Pakistan where Punjabis were now dominant? In short I get the feeling that he felt the idea of Pakistan was a passing phenomenon and Pakistan might become a normal country where development, ethnicity and culture counted as much as conflict and religion, especially if there was encouragement for it.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby SSridhar » 01 Dec 2012 16:50

ISPR may say anything about the HATF-V parts falling on populated places, but DAWN is certainly concerned.
MAN has always looked heavenwards for answers but on Wednesday night, disconcerted residents of Dadu district in Sindh had more than the normal vexations of life to quiz the higher powers about when large chunks of unidentifiable equipment dropped out of the sky over an area spanning several villages. That no one was hurt and no property damaged can only be termed a miracle, for the pieces were far from small. The biggest fragment weighed some 187 kilograms, while a former nazim of the area described a piece of iron as being five feet long and two feet wide.

Military authorities soon took possession of the remains and Pakistanis were left speculating whether the unidentified equipment was a bird, or a plane. Or, going beyond the Superman terminology, a dismembered satellite perhaps? Or even a missile? The last theory gained currency rapidly. Earlier on the same day, ISPR had reported that the army had successfully test-fired its nuclear-capable Hatf-V Ghauri ballistic missile. Following this line of reasoning, a few wary souls started wondering whether or not the huge amount of public funds spent on missile-system development produce stable results. Fortunately for the future of defence-system development, military authorities issued a statement yesterday saying that the objects constituted the part that separates in the normal course of a rocket launch; the missile reached its destination, so the test had been successful. That will no doubt come as a relief to the nervous, sky-gazing residents of Dadu, and other citizens, too, who may fear finding themselves in the flight path of a missile at any time after this incident. We can only wish that such tests would be conducted in more remote areas and with much more care. Surely working out which regions are populated is no rocket science.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby SSridhar » 01 Dec 2012 17:25

Johann wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Menon ji, that is what intrigues me. He had seen better days and he had also seen the worst days of Partition. He himself came as a refugee, didn't he ? After that, he should have followed the Pakistani perfidy closely as the decades went by. As he became an MP and assumed positions in the INC, he has seen in close quarters, as part of Ms. Gandhi's cabinets, later under VP Singh and then as the PM all the duplicitous nature of Pakistan. Do you mean to say that as a modern day avtar of Buddha or Jesus, he showered love and affection on a country that had inflicted so much misery on us, just because, and only because, his place of birth happened to be that wretched country ? Was he an Indian Prime Minister or a Corporator of Lahore ? And, it took him so long, almost sixty years to understand Pakistan's infinite hatred and enduring hostility with Hindu India ?


I think its precisely the historical perspective of inter-communal relations in Punjab before the Pakistan movement that fueled his hope. Wasn't there a feeling that the real support for Pakistan was in Muslim minority provinces like UP, not Bengal and Punjab which were reluctant late comers? That in the much same way that India could build bridges with Bangladesh, it could also build bridges with a Pakistan where Punjabis were now dominant? In short I get the feeling that he felt the idea of Pakistan was a passing phenomenon and Pakistan might become a normal country where development, ethnicity and culture counted as much as conflict and religion, especially if there was encouragement for it.

I thought we were talking of circa 1996, by which time it should have been very clear to any lay Indian what Pakistan was up to vis-a-vis India, leave alone a Foreign Minister of the country and who had held some important portfolios in the Union Government earlier. India had overcome massive terrorism in the Indian Punjab, supported by TSP and especially the Pakistani Punjab. The bridge-building process with Bangladesh had also collapsed by that time. Indian intelligence were already picking up the nexus between jihadi terrorists of TSP and BD.

For a person who has been praised as an intelligent Prime Minister after his death, it appears too naive for him to have reposed faith in culture and ethnicity to make Pakistan a normal country when jihadi terrorism, Islamist extremism, sectarian violence, hatred were at an all-time high with complete support to the Taliban who had just usurped power brutally from Najibullah. India was aware of Op. Topaz, the idea of strategic depth, and nuclear blackmails. And yet, it is strange that a foreign policy of 'unilateral accommodation' was coined just because a Punjabi thought of his long-lost proximity to another Punjabi from the enemy nation ? West Punjab, had by then become a terrorist den and every Pakistani Prime Minister supported terror.

It was in the early stages after Partition that there was an expectation among certain Indian leaders that 'the idea of Pakistan' was a temporary phenomenon and would revert to India unable to stand up by itself. But, very soon that expectation was buried when India realized the full enormity of support from the British Government ( and the Americans later on) for Pakistan and its illegal occupation of and claim on J&K. By the time CENTO, SEATO and the Mutual Defence Agreement had been sealed by c. 1954, no realist Indian politician would have entertained such hopes. Besides, Pakistan was on a continuous downward spiral from inception in terms of Islamism and to expect it to become a normal country was becoming increasingly difficult. Such expectations would have completely evaporated after ZAB & Zia-ul-Haq islamized the state irrevocably. It, therefore, doesn't speak highly of an 'intelligent PM' to entertain such hopes in 1996-1997 of India influencing the West Punjab, especially when he also ordered RAW to wind-up all activities there.

More mysteriously, within a few years afterwards, realization dawned on Mr Gujral that every Pakistani was a terrorist. A realization that completely overwhelmed his long held belief of five decades ?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Rony » 01 Dec 2012 17:47

Two Pakistan-born brothers arrested in Florida on terrorism charges
Two Pakistan-born brothers living in Florida have been arrested on charges of providing support to terrorists and conspiring to use a weapon of mass destruction within the United States, authorities said on Friday.

The accused were identified as Raees Alam Qazi, 20, and Sheheryar Alam Qazi, 30. They were arrested on Thursday in Fort Lauderdale and made an initial appearance in federal court on Friday.


--------------------------

Links between violent sectarian groups and the Pakistani Taliban are growing
The new venom in 2012 is a result of both the growing ties between Sunni militants and also the reverberations from the broader Shia-Sunni confrontation in the Middle East.

The desire to have proxies, as well as pressure from Saudi Arabia, a vital ally, to allow Sunni groups to operate in order to counter the perceived influence of Shia Iran, means that Pakistan tolerates some extremist groups, while it is at war with others

Shias are being alienated from their own country. Of those who can, many are fleeing for safer shores.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Dec 2012 18:50

SSridhar wrote:ISPR may say anything about the HATF-V parts falling on populated places, but DAWN is certainly concerned.
Military authorities soon took possession of the remains and Pakistanis were left speculating whether the unidentified equipment was a bird, or a plane. Or, going beyond the Superman terminology, a dismembered satellite perhaps? Or even a missile? The last theory gained currency rapidly. Earlier on the same day, ISPR had reported that the army had successfully test-fired its nuclear-capable Hatf-V Ghauri ballistic missile. Following this line of reasoning, a few wary souls started wondering whether or not the huge amount of public funds spent on missile-system development produce stable results. Fortunately for the future of defence-system development, military authorities issued a statement yesterday saying that the objects constituted the part that separates in the normal course of a rocket launch; the missile reached its destination, so the test had been successful. That will no doubt come as a relief to the nervous, sky-gazing residents of Dadu, and other citizens, too, who may fear finding themselves in the flight path of a missile at any time after this incident. [b]We can only wish that such tests would be conducted in more remote areas and with much more care. Surely working out which regions are populated is no rocket science.[/b]


The author is really putting his life at risk here, reading the last para, every average adbul will understand the missile failed. I expect him/ her to be Wajib -ul -Cutlet, job done by PA and responsibility taken by TTP.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Suppiah » 01 Dec 2012 20:09

Kashi wrote:I wonder when will Kuldip Nayyar (if he will ever) have his moment of epiphany.


What we call as belated realisation is simply explanation for treachery camouflaged as "useful idiocy" when the lies become too huge to be buried in clever verbiage.....when the likes of Gujral say "oh my God! I have been fooled" it is not them, it is those that believed their fake secular camouflage that are the fools...

Mind you, it is not even the gujrals admitting they have been fooled, it is other pro jehadi fake liberal scum issuing certificate of innocence on their behalf, secure in the knowledge that their statements can't be verified...if gujral had stood and said " I have been a fool and a idiot, forgive me" that is a different matter...when a Marxist yellow lies on his behalf, simply to yellow wash his legacy, don't believe it..

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Gagan » 01 Dec 2012 21:00

After getting moderately enlightened about 4th Generation War from Hazrat Jahil Hamid (Piss be upon him), here is the next step by this Al-Harward ejjucated biradher, who is a lawer in the land of the pure.
Fifth-generation war
Fourth-generation warfare wasn’t about states fighting states or armies fighting armies within bounds set by the law of international armed conflict. Here combatants (who didn’t formally represent the state) used non-conventional strategies and targets to fight conventional military forces.

So what then is fifth-generation warfare? It is loosely organised networks practicing violence and attacking nation-states in the name of a unified cause, while being empowered by contemporary political, economic, social and technological changes. Whether the emergence of Al-Qaeda or our indigenous jihadi groups of various hues – TTP, LeT, LeJ, Jaish etc. – is fourth-generation or fifth is a moot point. Semantics do not matter for our purpose. What is clear is that non-state actors are no longer mere proxies of state but the prime threat to it. So fourth and fifth-generation warfare are ‘pre-Westphalian’, in the sense that they mark the end of the nation-state’s monopoly over violence.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Gagan » 01 Dec 2012 21:13

Good News at last
Worldwide travel ban on Pakistanis recommended
ISLAMABAD: The Independent Monitoring Board (IMB) of the Global Polio Eradication Initiative (GPEI) has recommended the imposition of international travel restrictions on every child or adult travelling out of polio-endemic Pakistan, Afghanistan and Nigeria so that they do not carry the risk of polio with them to imperil the hard-earned status of countries that are now free of the crippling virus.



“No country should allow a citizen from any endemic polio state to cross their border without a valid vaccination certificate,” recommends the sixth IMB report, which has just been released.

August company that Pakistan keeps, are these 3 of the members of the D-8 hain ji?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Gagan » 01 Dec 2012 21:16

Even more Good News
Pakistan forex reserves fall nearly 2pc to $13.575 bn
KARACHI: Pakistan’s foreign exchange reserves dropped nearly 2 percent to $13.575 billion in the week ending Nov 23, from $13.814 billion in the previous week, the central bank said.Remittances from Pakistanis abroad rose 15.04 percent to $4.964 billion in the first four months, July to October, of the 2012/13 fiscal year, from $4.315 billion in the same period last year.

Err,
How many hundred times is India's Foreign exchange reserves compared to Pakistan's hain ji?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Aditya_V » 01 Dec 2012 21:19

Gagan- In my humble question is not what is ours , even 1 dollar is too much and why does not 3.5 friends allow it to go negative and have defaults happen. Pakis can then official beggers

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby saip » 01 Dec 2012 21:40

Gagan wrote:Good News at last
Worldwide travel ban on Pakistanis recommended
ISLAMABAD: The Independent Monitoring Board (IMB) of the Global Polio Eradication Initiative (GPEI) has recommended the imposition of international travel restrictions on every child or adult travelling out of polio-endemic Pakistan, Afghanistan and Nigeria so that they do not carry the risk of polio with them to imperil the hard-earned status of countries that are now free of the crippling virus.



“No country should allow a citizen from any endemic polio state to cross their border without a valid vaccination certificate,” recommends the sixth IMB report, which has just been released.

August company that Pakistan keeps, are these 3 of the members of the D-8 hain ji?


Hope the pigs that are coming to watch kirriket are carrying vaccination certs.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Anujan » 01 Dec 2012 21:45

JE Menon wrote:>>it is in the Paki mind to hate and train terrorists. I am increasingly convinced that they dont hate India is a special way -- they just hate everyone including themselves and we are closest to them. Well, technically they are closest to themselves and technically Pakistan perpetrated violence is worst in Pakistan, followed by Afghanistan, followed by India. The farther you go from Pakistan, lesser Pakistani terrorism becomes -- but even South Korea, US, Australia, Russia and Norway (yes Norway) are recipients of Pakistaniyat. It is not a question of how much they hate them, it is just a question of how easy it is to go there.

A very useful observation and masterfully put. Simple language and easily understandable. I cannot see any reason why this clipping of text shouldn't find its way to various applicable fora, newspaper comments, etc :) - provided Anujan is OK with it.


By all means Menon-ji. This should be spread far and wide.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby harbans » 01 Dec 2012 21:49

Hope the pigs that are coming to watch kirriket are carrying vaccination certs.


No way they will. India and the WKKs are laying a red carpet, visa free entry for a lot of the scum. India's effort not only curtailing terror, Polio may come to a big nought, but also visa free travel privileges we ourselves have acquired in many nations may come into question if we allow scum from there to enter visa free. Many will disappear, and get Indian ration cards then make visa free entry into other nations and disappear..thus endangering our own privileges we enjoy. It's completely foolish to allow Paki's to enter India when other nations even on the Paki friends list are taking more than adequate precautions to prevent the inbred from entering..

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Anujan » 01 Dec 2012 21:55

It is worth pointing out that Sajid Mir, one of the people on the phone on 26/11 surveyed targets in India on a cricket visa in 2005.

http://www.hindu.com/2011/05/31/stories ... 091300.htm

Some people never learn.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby vishvak » 01 Dec 2012 21:58

pgbhat wrote:..
speaking of Yakub Khan...from here
Asghar Khan was invited and he turned up. Unexpectedly Cowasjee, who was staying at Asghar Khan’s house for a brief visit to Islamabad, came with him.

Cowasjee was dressed in a long robe with a dazzling red hat. Together with his cane, which appeared like a spear, he looked like the Roman emperor I had seen in Ben Hur as a kid.

Cowasjee spotted Sahibzada Yaqub Ali Khan, who was chatting with another guest, and suddenly froze.

Cowasjee pointed his cane at Sahibzada Yaqub Ali Khan and said: "Yeh sala maader&@@d kaisay ata hai idhur. yeh sala to zia ka aadmi hai...uss ka chumcha tha, washington main baith kay sala aisa jhoot bolta tha aur logon ko marwata tha".

[How come this mother&@@@ dare come here. This Sala was Zia’s man…was his pawn, used to sit in Washington telling lies and would orchestrate murders here]

"International" world politics onlee, showing shades of world government etc etc
which Cowasjee described in Hindi along with a few choicest of abuses

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby member_20317 » 01 Dec 2012 22:09

Baikul wrote:I mean come on, the asymmetry of the exchange is astonishing. Some jerk-off is threatening you that “.............Your rivers, mountains, cities, will all be on fire, a fire of the kind you cannot imagine, and on the first day itself.” and, as a national leader, your response if “Aisi baatein na karein toh achcha hai, Yakub sahib... kyunki humne bhi unheen daryaon ka paani piya hai jinka aapne...”?

Humne bhi unheen daryaon ka...FFS? Staggering weak response.


Ready to be corrected but I am surprised (rather pleasantly) that IKG said that. IMHO that is the right way of managing a school bully without getting to his level.

Difference, observable difference should be present even in exchange of threats.

I am sure IKG also had enough in his hands by way of deterrent and he knew how it is only an onerous asset.

What would your suggestion be. What words would better reflect your message if you are in exact same position. Words only not anything on the ground. Things on the ground will find their day some day.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Gagan » 01 Dec 2012 22:37

IKG:

He did tell Pakistan on multiple occasions that they are wasting their 'asla' in Kashmir. That they will not achieve anything going down that route.

I think his strategy was to try and get down with the pakistanis at the Punjabi to punjabi level and tell them to concentrate on their progress instead of terrorism. The problem with our leadership is that they think that the Pakistani Politicians, civilians run that country - which they don't.

Our netas don't talk to the Pak fauj - and I agree with that, no point 'bhains ke aage been bajana' (playing a flute in front of a buffalo expecting it to appreciate music)

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby KJo » 01 Dec 2012 23:44

vishvak wrote:"International" world politics onlee, showing shades of world government etc etc
which Cowasjee described in Hindi along with a few choicest of abuses


Oh wow, Cowasjee died... :eek: RIP
Poor man stuck in the wrong country.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Chandragupta » 02 Dec 2012 00:00

putnanja wrote:X-Posting from Indian Foreign Policy ,

The nuclear threat by Shahibzada to Gujral ...



From the link above ...

...
THERE was one significant and scary juncture in India’s foreign policy under his charge that he has left unexplained. In fact, the eternal debate is about just how scary that moment was. It was during V.P. Singh’s government in the summer of 1990, when India and Pakistan came close to war over Kashmir. Benazir Bhutto, feeling pressured by her army, was making speeches of the kind that would make Hafiz Saeed look relatively moderate. She was threatening to cut Jagmohan, then governor of Kashmir, into little pieces: jag-jag, mo-mo, han-han, she said making chopping motions from one hand on the other arm at a Muzaffarabad rally. She repeated her late father’s favourite rant of waging a 1,000-year war against India. V.P. Singh responded in Parliament by asking if Pakistan would last 1,000 hours. It’s an aside, but I made a semi-facetious calculation in India Today (in partnership with defence expert Ravi Rikhye) to show how expensive a 1,000-hour (nearly 45-day) war would be, and even if India won decisively, how little it would achieve. But this story really opened up much later.

First, Seymour Hersh claimed (“On the Nuclear Edge”, The New Yorker, March 29, 1993) that Pakistan had indeed threatened to start that war with a nuclear attack against India and that threat had been conveyed to South Block by Bob Gates, then deputy national security advisor, who was the US president’s emissary to the subcontinent. This was immediately denied. But a much more detailed description of those perilous days appeared in a subsequent book (Critical Mass: The Dangerous Race for Superweapons in a Fragmenting World, William E. Burrows and Robert Windrem, Simon & Schuster, 1994). Again, there were denials. But now they sounded thin.

The story, that Gates brought the warning to New Delhi, was never conclusively established. But at one point, many years later, after a great deal of cajoling and pleading, Gujral admitted to having had a curious conversation with his Pakistani counterpart Sahibzada Yakub Khan. Sahibzada had come to India ostensibly to defuse tensions. But he said, as they walked down the South Block corridor, “Gujral sahib, this will not be like any of the decent, clean wars we have fought in the past. Your rivers, mountains, cities, will all be on fire, a fire of the kind you cannot imagine, and on the first day itself.” Gujral admitted he was taken aback. But he said he gathered his wits and replied: “Aisi baatein na karein toh achcha hai, Yakub sahib... kyunki humne bhi unheen daryaon ka paani piya hai jinka aapne...” The closest translation would be, keep these threats to yourself, because you will be paid back in kind.

I did persist with researching this over the years. That the Pakistanis threatened to begin the war with a nuclear attack is a fact. It is, truly, the first example of a nuclear blackmail. Did it work? That question is not fully answered yet. The one key witness who was most directly in the picture, Air Chief Marshal S.K. “Polly” Mehra, was the most forthcoming. He confirmed the threat and recounted how he was called by V.P. Singh and nervously asked, in front of Gujral, if he could prevent a Pakistani plane from delivering that “bomb”. Mehra said no air force could guarantee that. He could reasonably make sure, though, that the intruder wouldn’t go back. But, if such a thing happened, we need to retaliate, he said, and then asked an important question: “If the IAF has to deliver something in retaliation, can we at least see what it looks like? We can then figure out on which platform to put it, and how to deliver it. What are its aerodynamics, and so on.” Mehra said while this conversation was on, he saw Gujral in some sort of a panic, almost sprinting in and out of the room carrying fresh sheets of paper, obviously cables of some kind, and showing them to V.P. Singh. This much I was able to confirm with V.P. Singh himself, on the record. The implicit, and shocking story is, that if India did have a credible, deliverable deterrent then, its armed forces had not even seen it. More likely, India did not. We can say with certainty that this is when India finally dropped all notions of nuclear ambiguity and embarked on full-fledged weaponisation. Whether the Pakistani nuclear blackmail then worked, whether it intimidated V.P. Singh’s truly weak government, and if so, into what, is what we do not yet know. It is one of the most important questions Gujral has left unanswered.

...


Gujral should have got this gatar ka goonda Yakup arrested & slapped around by Delhi pandoos. We would have seen what Pakistan could have done.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Charlie » 02 Dec 2012 03:03

Century Old Temple demolished in Karachi

Image
Image

KARACHI:
In a hurried operation on Saturday, a builder demolished a century-old temple in Soldier Bazaar while the Sindh High Court was hearing a petition seeking a stay order.
Apart from razing down the pre-partition Shri Rama Pir Mandir, the private builder also demolished three or four houses located next to it. Nearly 40 people became homeless as a result.
“They destroyed our mandir and humiliated our gods,” said an angry Prakash, pointing towards the huge debris of concrete, stones and walls of the temple. The demolishing team did place the statues of four Hindu deities on the side but the residents accused them of taking away their gold jewellery and crowns.
Pointing to the bruises on his arms, Lakshman said that, “they hit me with their guns when I tried to stop them. I told them to kill me instead of destroying our holy place.”
Banwri recalled that the demolition teams arrived around 11 in the morning. She was preparing breakfast when she heard the thundering noise of a bulldozer. She rushed outside, only to receive instructions to bring her bed, cupboard and other essential items outside the house. “I watched my house go down in just minutes and I couldn’t do anything.”
She added that, during the demolition, the area was cordoned off by the police and Rangers with tents put up all around. Outsiders were not allowed to enter, she added.
Saveeta was among those 40 people who lost her house. “The dowry that I had given to my daughter for her wedding is all buried here,” she said with tears. With her husband out of station, she and her three children would be spending the night under the open sky.

There are around 150 Hindus in the neighbourhood and nearly four families live in each of the houses that were destroyed, according to an elderly resident, Kaali Das. “People were living in cramped houses, separated only by curtains. Over here, we live like animals,” he said, adding that some of these houses were as high as three storeys.
Angered by the builders’ actions, the crowd demanded the government arrange tickets to India for them. “If you don’t want us, we will go to India,” screamed a woman. Another man added that, “our temple is as sacred to us as your mosque is to you.”
For their part, the police denied the existence of the temple completely. The police maintained that they had orders to remove the encroachments. DSP Pervaiz Iqbal of Nabi Buksh police station said, “There was no temple there. There were just Hindu gods present inside the houses and we made sure that they were safe.”
The people were given plenty of time to remove their belongings out of the house, he said. “We did not injure anyone. In fact those people threw stones on us and our SHO Abid Hussain Shah was injured.”
The residents managed, however, to fish out a plaque of the temple from under the debris. Maharaj Badri, who lived inside the temple, also denied that the land was encroached upon. “Our ancestors have been living here way since independence. We are not encroachers,” he said.
Military Lands and Cantonment director Zeenat Ahmed insisted that the temple was “untouched” and denied that it was demolished. The operation was against illegal occupants, she said, adding that temples are old grant property (evacuee property). “The builder had possession of the place since years and these people were encroachers, and encroachers have no religion,” she added.
Published in The Express Tribune, December 2nd, 2012.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby SBajwa » 02 Dec 2012 05:31

by Baikul
In short, the Pakjabi mind looks at the world, rejects it and proceeds to divorce it- often violently. From 1947 (Indic roots) to the Times Square bomber (US society), the process is inevitable for that country and its citizens both. 1971, then the violence on Shias and Ahmadis was/is the society looking at itself, rejecting and divorcing important segments. The TTP, the the green on green infighting- are most dangerous for them because they indicate Pakjabis looking inwards and rejecting what they see there. I found that when I think of Pakjabis in this way it helps me to explain a lot of their behaviours.



Baikul!! It is a very astute observation! I 100% agree and would like to add that only way to fix them is to thoroughly defeat them (economically, militarily, culturally, etc) in all ways possible.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby SBajwa » 02 Dec 2012 05:37

by varunkumar
Nehru had the light bulb moment about China on his death bed, Gujaral had his on Pakistan. Both kicked the bucket afterwards. These kind of people spend their whole life living in delusions.


Exactly! it is because Indian politicians get power only after they are over 70 years of age (Nehru had a delusions/schizophrenia that normally happen when you are over 80 in his 50s due to him being in jail most of his life and his british/communist overpowering beliefs) and by then it is too late to follow the current geo political realities!!

Thus Indians is always catching up the to times and will never lead! We must have young leaders!! and the best leaders are those who are trained and have led from the front i.e. from military!

We have leaders who first lead "Goondas" in their student life in university (Lallo, Mulayam, etc) and then they reward all these "goondas" with more political power!

So!! Young educated folks should enter the politics!! from everywhere (military preferred) and then you will see totally different Ram Rajya!!


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