Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

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devesh
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby devesh » 02 Dec 2012 06:02

Johann,

the Punjabi and Bengali Islamics were not "late comers" and certainly not "reluctant". how can you call them "reluctant" when they engaged in some of the most blood-curdling atrocities against non-Muslims? there was no hint of reluctance to committing those crimes against Hindus and Sikhs. the promise of fertile land, wealth, and many a times, women, was enough to lure the Islamics to engage in Jihad - both in Punjab and Bengal, and in other places across the Gangetic belt, and even places like Hyderabad and Kerala.

and even the "late comer" status is questionable. the competing elite struggle between Jinnah+ML and some of the Punjabi Mussalman hotshots is often claimed as evidence of "Punjabis not interested in Jihad, and so they were late comers" theory, but if we really dig and try to understand exactly what the points of contention were, we see that the use of Islamic tactics and Jihad as a legitimate weapon (in the Islamic psyche) were never really questioned or contested by the Punjabi Mussalmans. It was simply a power struggle between the Tall, Fair Punjabi pretenders and the Gangetic based "traditional" Islamic power centers. the former were worried of being swept away by the later.

there never was any "conflict" on the question of using Jihad against Hindus and Sikhs. the only point of argument was who would retain the post-British political power and inherit the State-apparatus. in this struggle, the Deobandis and a section of the Gangetic Islamic elite were apprehensive about letting the Hindus consolidate on one side of the border. they were tactically shrewd and strategically far sighted enough to understand that any such notions as population transfer or any plans which would sequester the Muslims within their zones would immediately and logically also result in a similar process of "isolating" the Hindus and Sikhs within their own zones of dominance. This, in turn, would allow the Hindu to develop the psychological "separateness" and hence the political and ideological space opens up for consolidation based on cultural assertion.

it was to prevent that, and to retain the Islamic penetration of the fertile Gangetic Valley that a significant section decided to hedge their bets and refused to go all in with the Pakistan experiment. It would be wrong to say that the Gangetic Islamics were the sole cause behind Pakistan. The elites realized that they were still negotiating from a relative position of weakness b/c the old Islamic Empires were crushed and the Muslim was "equal" with the Hindu, and so in classic Islamic fashion, they decided to hedge and bet on all the options available, distributing their investments in both the Pakistan basket, and also the supposedly "patriotic, unifying vision" of one India basket. the result is the appearance of mysterious "late comers" and "patriotic stayers" and "reluctant participants" and "the real Islamics" and "more Islamic than common Muslims" and "more patriotic than the small segment of Jihadis", and so-on and so-forth.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Prem » 02 Dec 2012 06:18

devesh wrote:Johann,

it was to prevent that, and to retain the Islamic penetration of the fertile Gangetic Valley that a significant section decided to hedge their bets and refused to go all in with the Pakistan experiment. It would be wrong to say that the Gangetic Islamics were the sole cause behind Pakistan. The elites realized that they were still negotiating from a relative position of weakness b/c the old Islamic Empires were crushed and the Muslim was "equal" with the Hindu, and so in classic Islamic fashion, they decided to hedge and bet on all the options available, distributing their investments in both the Pakistan basket, and also the supposedly "patriotic, unifying vision" of one India basket. the result is the appearance of mysterious "late comers" and "patriotic stayers" and "reluctant participants" and "the real Islamics" and "more Islamic than common Muslims" and "more patriotic than the small segment of Jihadis", and so-on and so-forth.


Devesh Man.
Just recently ,I had discussion with Acharya San on similar line. Indians still dont have the instinct to figure out their real enemy, both domestic and foreigner.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Prem » 02 Dec 2012 06:25

SBajwa wrote:
by varunkumar
Nehru had the light bulb moment about China on his death bed, Gujaral had his on Pakistan. Both kicked the bucket afterwards. These kind of people spend their whole life living in delusions.
Exactly! it is because Indian politicians get power only after they are over 70 years of age (Nehru had a delusions/schizophrenia that normally happen when you are over 80 in his 50s due to him being in jail most of his life and his british/communist overpowering beliefs) and by then it is too late to follow the current geo political realities!!So!! Young educated folks should enter the politics!! from everywhere (military preferred) and then you will see totally different Ram Rajya!!


Chacha Laa Naam ley Kar , rainy Weekend ko barbaad naa karo. Bearing WKK curse is the last pennance we must do for our sin of carlessness. The line have started moving fast on them and soon they will all be Allah ke Pyare.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Baikul » 02 Dec 2012 08:31

ravi_g wrote:
Baikul wrote:I mean come on, the asymmetry of the exchange is astonishing. Some jerk-off is threatening you that “.............Your rivers, mountains, cities, will all be on fire, a fire of the kind you cannot imagine, and on the first day itself.” and, as a national leader, your response if “Aisi baatein na karein toh achcha hai, Yakub sahib... kyunki humne bhi unheen daryaon ka paani piya hai jinka aapne...”?

Humne bhi unheen daryaon ka...FFS? Staggering weak response.


Ready to be corrected but I am surprised (rather pleasantly) that IKG said that. IMHO that is the right way of managing a school bully without getting to his level.

Difference, observable difference should be present even in exchange of threats.

I am sure IKG also had enough in his hands by way of deterrent and he knew how it is only an onerous asset.

What would your suggestion be. What words would better reflect your message if you are in exact same position. Words only not anything on the ground. Things on the ground will find their day some day.


At the risk of being off topic.

Well, when one says "hamne bhi unheen daryon ka jinka aapne..." it's saying we are as strong, purposeful, vengeful as you. This is an implicit equal-equal that I dislike. Perhaps this is my personal peeve, but the more I think of this equal-equal the more irritated I get.

"Ham un daryon pe peshab karte hain jinse aap paani peete gain..." would be how I'd think of it!

However, my response (you said words only, not anything on the ground) , had someone threatened my country like that, would be to lay out in precise language, coldly stated, what we would do to theirs - kill every living thing in the state of Pakistan, whether by raining radioactive fire that takes out tens of millions, or by hanging those leaders that survive, killing them and their children as we find them, for they and their families must take direct, personal, responsibility. That would be just for starters.

SBajwa wrote:
by Baikul
In short, the Pakjabi mind looks at the world, rejects it and proceeds to divorce it- often violently. From 1947 (Indic roots) to the Times Square bomber (US society), the process is inevitable for that country and its citizens both. 1971, then the violence on Shias and Ahmadis was/is the society looking at itself, rejecting and divorcing important segments. The TTP, the the green on green infighting- are most dangerous for them because they indicate Pakjabis looking inwards and rejecting what they see there. I found that when I think of Pakjabis in this way it helps me to explain a lot of their behaviours.



Baikul!! It is a very astute observation! I 100% agree and would like to add that only way to fix them is to thoroughly defeat them (economically, militarily, culturally, etc) in all ways possible.


Thank you saar. In fact the logical extension of my framework is that as we defeat them in all spheres, as you propose, they will (and already are) continue to turn inwards in self-hate in an ever increasing spiral of green on green violence. More separation and divorce onlee.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby sadhana » 02 Dec 2012 08:48

Johann wrote:I think its precisely the historical perspective of inter-communal relations in Punjab before the Pakistan movement that fueled his hope. Wasn't there a feeling that the real support for Pakistan was in Muslim minority provinces like UP, not Bengal and Punjab which were reluctant late comers? That in the much same way that India could build bridges with Bangladesh, it could also build bridges with a Pakistan where Punjabis were now dominant? In short I get the feeling that he felt the idea of Pakistan was a passing phenomenon and Pakistan might become a normal country where development, ethnicity and culture counted as much as conflict and religion, especially if there was encouragement for it.


Punjab was not a late-comer, it was the earliest comer. As early as 1927, Punjab Muslim politicians felt they did not need to lose out with an all-India compromise with Hindus simply for the sake of their Gangetic-plain coreligionists:

David Page, Prelude to Partition: The Indian Muslims and the Imperial System of Control 1920-1932, page 162
As a result of the clash between provincial and all-India interests, the Punjabis decided to cut themselves adrift from
their co-religionists elsewhere and to stake a claim for themselves less in relation to the subcontinent as a whole and more in relation to the Muslim North-West. Sir Malcolm Hailey narrated this change of mood to Sir Arthur Hirtzel, Permanent Secretary at the India Office, in a letter which shows how far this separatist trend had progressed:

"They see they can never have quite the same interests as Muslims in the provinces with large Hindu majorities and they seriously think of breaking away from the All India Muslim League and starting a Federation of their own. This will seek to embrace the Punjab, parts of the U.P., the North West Frontier, Baluchistan and Sind; it is part of the programme to secure Sind for the Punjab and to give up to Delhi some of our Hindu districts in the South East of the province. [T]hey openly say that this in itself is only a preparation for a larger Federation which shall embrace Afghanistan and perhaps Persia."

This was far-reaching enough. But, to complete the picture, Hailey made plain also the very significant attitude of the Punjabis to their brethren in Bengal: 'You will notice that the dream of the future to which I had alluded does not include Bengal. For the moment, the Northern India Moslem has given up his coreligionist in Bengal as hopeless and seems to expect no assistance from Bengal in the cause of Islam'[Hailey papers, 11B:Sir Malcolm Hailey to Sir Arthur Hirtzel, 15 Dec. 1927]. Twenty years before the creation of Pakistan and forty-five years before the creation of Bangladesh, these were prophetic insights.


Post-partition Punjabi Hindus and Sindhi Hindus have forgotten their own history and prefer to indulge in delusions of their own(with due respect to them). In complete contrast, their forefathers in the period 1920s-1930s were very alive to the threat of being left stranded by separatism of the Muslim majority provinces and Punjabi/Sindhi Hindu politics at every juncture was shaped by that consciousness.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby johneeG » 02 Dec 2012 09:06

Jhujar wrote:
devesh wrote:Johann,

it was to prevent that, and to retain the Islamic penetration of the fertile Gangetic Valley that a significant section decided to hedge their bets and refused to go all in with the Pakistan experiment. It would be wrong to say that the Gangetic Islamics were the sole cause behind Pakistan. The elites realized that they were still negotiating from a relative position of weakness b/c the old Islamic Empires were crushed and the Muslim was "equal" with the Hindu, and so in classic Islamic fashion, they decided to hedge and bet on all the options available, distributing their investments in both the Pakistan basket, and also the supposedly "patriotic, unifying vision" of one India basket. the result is the appearance of mysterious "late comers" and "patriotic stayers" and "reluctant participants" and "the real Islamics" and "more Islamic than common Muslims" and "more patriotic than the small segment of Jihadis", and so-on and so-forth.


Devesh Man.
Just recently ,I had discussion with Acharya San on similar line. Indians still dont have the instinct to figure out their real enemy, both domestic and foreigner.


Yatha raja, thatha praja...

Although, it seems like the 'raja(s) know the 'enemy' and deliberately keep the 'enemy' alive and kicking, while simultaneously misguiding the 'praja'.

---
I don't believe the stated reasons for pappi-jhappi with 'enemy' nor do I believe the so called 'realization' on deathbed. I think both are planted info to manage the image of the 'raja'. But, nevertheless, it provided a good propaganda material against future pappi-jhappi by arguing,"look, even the previous iconic pappi-jhappist confessed that he was misguided, so why are you continuing to make the same mistake?"

In my mind, I have no doubt that pappi-jhappi was initiated despite intimate knowledge about the nature of enemy and the eventual result of the pappi-jhappi(loss to India). Ironically, the more charitable explanation is that the 'raja' is a puppet/dummy being controlled by the invisible forces(hostile to Indians) and that these forces also control the system on the whole. So, 'raja(s)' was powerless. I say this is a charitable explanation because according to this theory the 'raja' is not villain(or evil, per say), but rather impotent(in fact, the 'raja' is chosen for being an impotent). So, it is not really his fault, because he was just being a puppet... (if he rebelled, then he would have been removed from power).

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby chetak » 02 Dec 2012 09:09

berkin babe and the contents of her berkin bag........ :)

Give proof of LeT chief role in 26/11: Hina Rabbani Khar
SLAMABAD: Pakistan will take action against LeT founder Hafiz Saeed - the mastermind of the 2008 Mumbai attacks - if India provides evidence against him that stands in court, foreign minister Hina Rabbani Khar said in an interview to a news channel on Saturday.

"Hafiz Saeed was in custody and the evidence against him could not hold in a court of law. We have said even now that we will be happy to look at any evidence against him that holds in a court of law," she said. Asked if Pakistan will act if India provides evidence against Saeed, she replied: "Yes, there will definitely (be action). He was already in custody. The evidence was not enough and he was released."

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby chaanakya » 02 Dec 2012 10:09

Rental Raja@ PM on Kalabagh dam verdict: Judicial order not enough to launch project
“Projects of national import are executed only after thrashing out a consensus of all stakeholders,” Raja Pervez Ashraf said in reply to a question about the Lahore High Court’s verdict ordering the federal government to go ahead with the construction of dam.



“Perception doesn’t always match reality. The government’s expenditure has risen by just seven per cent over the past few years,” an emphatic Raja Ashraf retorted.

The federal government had curtailed its expenditure, but the provinces had increased theirs after receiving more funds under the seventh National Finance Commission award, he contended.



In reply to a question about carving out of a province in southern Punjab, Raja Ashraf said it was not merely a political or election slogan, but a genuine demand of the people.



Regarding the dispute over a Turkish rental power plant, he said the government would approach the apex court in the hope of getting an “investor-friendly decision”


So now it is officially confirmed that Rental Raja charges 7% a whooping three percent less than Dus percenti.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Anindya » 02 Dec 2012 10:16

It was only a few years ago, that Indian doctors were fixing Pakistani children's hearts with Indian charity and money, while Pakistanis were using their money to help the LeT blow up children's school buses in India.

The basics are still the same - the same day that Pakistanis decide that Indians should not feature in ads in their country...
Pakistani panel calls for ban on ads with Indian models

that very same day, we have a feature about Pakistanis with big plans of making money in Bollywood....
Pakistani actresses eye Bollywood

The parameters have changed a little bit, but the story is still the same....the pettiness and bigotry of the Pakistani is cultural.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby chaanakya » 02 Dec 2012 10:19

http://yawn.com/2012/12/02/election-con ... ith-india/
Election considerations hold up border trade with India
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has missed a self-imposed deadline for allowing all tradable items through land routes from India because of stiff resistance from land-owning elite in the federal cabinet.

The two countries had agreed in September to open the Wagah border and other land routes for trade in all commodities, including agricultural produce, by the end of October.

Dawn has learnt that the cabinet is reluctant to take up the summary on the issue owing to resistance from its members and parliamentarians.

An official said it appeared to be a very difficult decision for the government at a time when it was going to complete its tenure in the next few months.

The general election will most probably be held in May........



The commerce ministry had submitted a summary seeking approval of the decision allowing India to export more than 5,600 items by land, especially through the Wagah border, as against the current list of a mere 100 items allowed to enter Pakistan.

India also missed the deadline set for it to reduce the sensitive list by 30 per cent under the South Asia Free Trade Agreement (Safta) last month. The products placed in the sensitive list are allowed for trade, but the flows are restricted through tariff.

Contrary to this, Pakistan has 1,209 items on the negative list, disallowing their trade through any route from India.

NEGATIVE LIST: Pakistan also set a deadline to phase out the negative list by Dec 31 as part of the trade liberalisation programme.

India had agreed to phase out the negative list by April next year and confine the sensitive list to 100 items.

“I don’t see these commitments being honoured in the present circumstances,” the official said.

In reply to a question, he said the government was not backtracking from its decision, putting down the delay to “procedural hiccups”.

A commerce ministry official said the agricultural lobby was trying to sabotage the liberalisation process. “We have enough safeguards to protect our major sensitive products like sugar, wheat and cotton from any cheap imports,” he said.

Pakistan has a nominal trade with India in other agricultural products. Fruits and vegetables are imported from India when the need arises.
The official said the concerns of feudal lords in parliament had no economic justification.

He said there was no opposition from the industrial sector to the moves under consideration.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Raja Bose » 02 Dec 2012 11:03

Apparently Pakis have decided that Gerrard Street in Toronto downtown should be called "Little South Asia" instead of Little India. :rotfl:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby CRamS » 02 Dec 2012 11:11



Does the alliance for secular "south asia" have anything to say about this?

Also, its been a while, but I have been to Jerald street in Toronto, ON, Canada, but can't recall too many TSP places there, but I could be wrong because as I said, its been a while. So on what basis are TSP pukes demanding that it be called little "south asia"?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby chaanakya » 02 Dec 2012 11:22

xposted here


http://tribune.com. p k/story/473838/soldier-bazaar-temple-razed-in-hurried-operation/
Alleged encroachment: Soldier Bazaar temple razed in hurried operation
KARACHI:

In a hurried operation on Saturday, a builder demolished a century-old temple in Soldier Bazaar while the Sindh High Court was hearing a petition seeking a stay order.

Apart from razing down the pre-partition Shri Rama Pir Mandir, the private builder also demolished three or four houses located next to it. Nearly 40 people became homeless as a result.

“They destroyed our mandir and humiliated our gods,” said an angry Prakash, pointing towards the huge debris of concrete, stones and walls of the temple. The demolishing team did place the statues of four Hindu deities on the side but the residents accused them of taking away their gold jewellery and crowns.



Angered by the builders’ actions, the crowd demanded the government arrange tickets to India for them. “If you don’t want us, we will go to India,” screamed a woman. Another man added that, “our temple is as sacred to us as your mosque is to you.”

For their part, the police denied the existence of the temple completely. The police maintained that they had orders to remove the encroachments. DSP Pervaiz Iqbal of Nabi Buksh police station said, “There was no temple there. There were just Hindu gods present inside the houses and we made sure that they were safe.”



Military Lands and Cantonment director Zeenat Ahmed insisted that the temple was “untouched” and denied that it was demolished. The operation was against illegal occupants, she said, adding that temples are old grant property (evacuee property). “The builder had possession of the place since years and these people were encroachers, and encroachers have no religion,” she added.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby SSridhar » 02 Dec 2012 12:11

chaanakya wrote:http://yawn.com/2012/12/02/election-considerations-hold-up-border-trade-with-india/
Election considerations hold up border trade with India

If election considerations hold up liberalized trade, then it punctures the theory that Pakistani Abduls were all for closer trade relationship with India.

Election is just a ruse. Pakistan got what it wanted, liberalized visa for access to India. They said that liberalized trade was impossible without a liberalized visa and India walked into the trap. We knew MFN and trade liberalization would not happen except for cosmetic purposes to get what Pakistan desperately wanted.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby SSridhar » 02 Dec 2012 12:23

Victory of Religious Control - Op Ed in DT
The unequal battle between the depleting ranks of secularists and the growing band of Islamists in Pakistan is all but over. The dream of a progressive, democratic and pluralistic society is in tatters.
It was under their influence that Pakistan got a somewhat balanced 1973 Constitution with cosmetic and vague Islamic content. Mr Bhutto under pressure from the Islamists soon started to tinker with it. His end came at the hands of the very obscurantist elements that he tried to appease.
Benazir Bhutto and Mian Nawaz Sharif who came after Zia did little to reverse the tide of fundamentalism and the exploitation of Islam for personal benefit continued. In fact, the emergence of the Taliban and profusion of the fundamentalist elements were the landmarks of their rule.
The main fault of organised religion is the reliance on violence rather than on the trust in its own truths.
Religious control will inevitably lead to despotism, not democracy, because it privileges power over reason. This should have been reason enough for opposing the efforts of Islamists to enter and seek to seize control of the state and the political marketplace. However, a clear unified lobby who are strong proponents of religious domination, and who provoke attacks on those who value their own autonomy and political choice, are in the driver’s seat. On the other side, there is just a silent populace that has lost its nerve through decades of internal harassment by the ruling forces aligning themselves with the fundamentalists. This one-sided struggle assures victory for those elements that want to ram through their agenda of religious control of state and society.

So, realization is becoming increasingly clear that all hopes are lost for ever now in the Land of the Pure as it moves within striking distance of becoming the Land of the Purest.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby menon s » 02 Dec 2012 12:45

Thirty-seven years in UAE and looking forward to more
http://dawn.com/2012/12/02/thirty-seven ... um=twitter

Agha Hassan Abedi, founder of BCCI who had a strong influence on the Arab leaders, was clearly instrumental in bringing UAE and Pakistan closer. He taught his people how to deal with the Arabs, how to talk, dress and present themselves to the outside world. As far as I remember, every single Arab had an account in BCCI and always took pride in dealing with the Pakistani bankers.
This was followed some years later by the debacle of the BCCI which completely shattered the Arab world, which lost all trust and faith in Pakistan. Over the years, the Pakistani work force greatly reduced and was substantially replaced by the Indians and Far Eastern workers.

I live in a gated community comprising families from several countries and right now as I write I can see the glow of Diwali lights in my neighbours house. Our closest friends are the Indians who have stood by us at every stage. Unless the Pakistanis come out of their shell and learn to mix around and interact with other communities, they will lose their identity.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby kmkraoind » 02 Dec 2012 12:56

India to erect floating fence along Sir Creek border with Pakistan - Economic Times

Posting in full.

NEW DELHI: India will soon erect a 'floating fence', anchored by submerged metallic meshes, along the disputed Sir Creek border area with Pakistan.

The 96-km strip in the Rann of Kutch marshes is notorious for illegal crossings and smuggling of narcotics and arms and is patrolled round-the-clock by BSF marine commandos.

Top sources involved in the project said after mulling over various options, the Union Home Ministry entrusted the CPWD and NBCC to install an all-weather 'gabion box' fence along the stretch.

While the National Buildings Construction Corporation will erect the fence on about 75 km of the watery strip, the Central Public Works Department has already started work in the rest of the area, sources said.

A 'gabion box' is a meshed metallic box-like structure with hexagonal wire nettings and it is lowered down the bed of the water body after big stones are filled inside it.

"The fence would be erected on the 'gabion boxes' which will have the usual all-weather concertina wires and poles. The Sir Creek area is characteristic with shallow and slushy water and these boxes would be the best material to be sunk under water considering the difficulty of the terrain to execute such a difficult project," an official privy to the development said.

The 'gabion box' is a regular technology used for flood water control and prevention of rock breaking along coasts by the impact of the saline ocean water.

India and Pakistan are continuously in talks with regard to the maritime boundary dispute in this area.

Sources said the fence would be erected, despite the ongoing talks, in order to safeguard Indian security interest.

Officials said a number of other plans, including erecting a pontoon fence, were also discussed with engineering experts but the Home Ministry found the 'gabion box' technique apt for this project.

The entire project, sources said, would have an estimated cost of about Rs 1,200 crore and the financial sanctions in this regard would be granted soon to the executing agencies.

The Sir Creek area, including a particular stretch called 'harami nala', vulnerable for infiltration, will also be covered by the fencing.

A number of instances of the Border Security Force apprehending Pakistani fishermen and trawlers are reported from the Sir Creek area regularly and hence the border guarding force has raised and deployed a special unit called 'crocodile' commandos in the marshy territory.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby SSridhar » 02 Dec 2012 13:00

Jinnah & Secularism - Op Ed in DT
However, even after Jinnah became the supreme leader of the Muslim separatist movement, in his personal life, he continued to adhere to his enjoyment of the brew that refreshes and his occidental dietary preferences reportedly continued as well. {Afraid of saying liquour & pork}
However, when someone asked him if he was prescribing a secular state, Jinnah retorted dismissively that India was a secular state and he surely did not have in mind any such ideal.
Moreover, soon after August 11, 1947, Jinnah reiterated that the Sharia would be a major source of law for Pakistan. There is of course the record contrary to that as well. He denied that Pakistan would be a theocracy. To western journalists and media especially, he presented Pakistan as a progressive Muslim nation, democratic and inclusive.
However, when he was leaving Delhi someone asked him what message he had for those Muslims who would be left behind in India. He said they should become loyal Indian citizens and he expected India to treat them well. Earlier he had vehemently argued that it was impossible for a state ruled by Hindus to be fair to its minorities.
The most sympathetic guess is that he took his cue from the Aligarh school of Muslim modernism, which emphasised Islam as a civilisation and culture instead of a rigid system of law that the fundamentalists idealised. However, it does not follow from this that he wanted to establish a secular-democratic state. Historically there is no evidence that a Muslim state ever treated non-Muslims as equal citizens. This controversy about Jinnah and secularism is likely to persist ad infinitum.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby SSridhar » 02 Dec 2012 13:09

Zardari asks PRC to invest more in Pakistan
“Pakistan-China friendship is time tested, long standing with strong feelings, higher than mountains and sweeter than honey. China is always kind to Pakistan”, President Zardari said

Aren't they simply too tired of these worn-out cliches ?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby arun » 02 Dec 2012 13:31

X Posted from the Oppression of Minorities in Pakistan thread.

The routine oppression meted out to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s Non-Mohammadden populace:

Alleged encroachment: Soldier Bazaar temple razed in hurried operation

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby partha » 02 Dec 2012 14:15

Image

Online protest :lol: This is how powerful and brave the RAPEs are. Remember how RAPEs announced anti blasphemy rally and had to downhill ski and cancel it following threats? But outrage and protests against Babri masjid demolition, Bangladesh fire, Israel, Rohingyas are easy and safe, no?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Charlie » 02 Dec 2012 14:24

^^^

Motorma secular liberal lives in US where it is safe to demonstrate against Pakistaniyat. Wonder why she chose a symbolic "Online Only" protest. It would be great if she can assemble other South Asia luminaries like Anagana Chatterjee, Vijay Parsad etc to protest infront of white house against Shia, Ahmedi Genocide.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby krishnan » 02 Dec 2012 14:36

SSridhar wrote:Zardari asks PRC to invest more in Pakistan
“Pakistan-China friendship is time tested, long standing with strong feelings, higher than mountains and sweeter than honey. China is always kind to Pakistan”, President Zardari said

Aren't they simply too tired of these worn-out cliches ?


When did they change the official line ??

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby arun » 02 Dec 2012 14:38

X Posted from the Oppression of Minorities in Pakista thread.

In the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, a country claimed to have been created as a safe haven for the Mohammaddens of the Indian Sub-Continent, members of minority Shia sect of Mohammaddenism are finding out that it is no such thing as they are killed by their fellow Mohammaddens belonging to the majority Sunni sect:

80 Shiites killed in Pakistan in Nov: MWM

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby arun » 02 Dec 2012 14:56

X Posted from the "Border Fencing and Border/Strategic Roads" thread.

India to erect floating fence along Sir Creek border :

PTI via Hindustan Times

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby ArmenT » 02 Dec 2012 14:59

krishnan wrote:When did they change the official line ??

It's old hat by now. Their ex-PM Gilani already said China-Pak friendship was "...taller than the mountains, deeper than the oceans, stronger than steel, sweeter than honey" some time ago.

See relevant entry in BRF dictionary for details.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby shiv » 02 Dec 2012 16:21

arun wrote:X Posted from the Oppression of Minorities in Pakista thread.

In the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, a country claimed to have been created as a safe haven for the Mohammaddens of the Indian Sub-Continent, members of minority Shia sect of Mohammaddenism are finding out that it is no such thing as they are killed by their fellow Mohammaddens belonging to the majority Sunni sect:

80 Shiites killed in Pakistan in Nov: MWM


No use. They missed those responsible for Pakistan's epic fail missile launch.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Chinmayanand » 02 Dec 2012 17:01

The missile failure was a shia-ahmedi-baloch-pakhtun-sindhi conspiracy to malign the martial missiles of pakistan.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Johann » 02 Dec 2012 18:04

SSridhar wrote:I thought we were talking of circa 1996, by which time it should have been very clear to any lay Indian what Pakistan was up to vis-a-vis India, leave alone a Foreign Minister of the country and who had held some important portfolios in the Union Government earlier. India had overcome massive terrorism in the Indian Punjab, supported by TSP and especially the Pakistani Punjab. The bridge-building process with Bangladesh had also collapsed by that time. Indian intelligence were already picking up the nexus between jihadi terrorists of TSP and BD.

For a person who has been praised as an intelligent Prime Minister after his death, it appears too naive for him to have reposed faith in culture and ethnicity to make Pakistan a normal country when jihadi terrorism, Islamist extremism, sectarian violence, hatred were at an all-time high with complete support to the Taliban who had just usurped power brutally from Najibullah. India was aware of Op. Topaz, the idea of strategic depth, and nuclear blackmails. And yet, it is strange that a foreign policy of 'unilateral accommodation' was coined just because a Punjabi thought of his long-lost proximity to another Punjabi from the enemy nation ? West Punjab, had by then become a terrorist den and every Pakistani Prime Minister supported terror.

It was in the early stages after Partition that there was an expectation among certain Indian leaders that 'the idea of Pakistan' was a temporary phenomenon and would revert to India unable to stand up by itself. But, very soon that expectation was buried when India realized the full enormity of support from the British Government ( and the Americans later on) for Pakistan and its illegal occupation of and claim on J&K. By the time CENTO, SEATO and the Mutual Defence Agreement had been sealed by c. 1954, no realist Indian politician would have entertained such hopes. Besides, Pakistan was on a continuous downward spiral from inception in terms of Islamism and to expect it to become a normal country was becoming increasingly difficult. Such expectations would have completely evaporated after ZAB & Zia-ul-Haq islamized the state irrevocably. It, therefore, doesn't speak highly of an 'intelligent PM' to entertain such hopes in 1996-1997 of India influencing the West Punjab, especially when he also ordered RAW to wind-up all activities there.

More mysteriously, within a few years afterwards, realization dawned on Mr Gujral that every Pakistani was a terrorist. A realization that completely overwhelmed his long held belief of five decades ?


Having to face the real possibility of nuclear war, or even a series of conventional wars is something that pushes decision-makers in the country with something to lose to try and find an alternative through engagement on whatever basis.

The reality is in a nuclear tinged long-term confrontation you need a mix of containment and engagement to manage the risks.

There are people - especially those who are diplomatic by personal nature - who consistently shy away from using containment at all.

Sometimes those people take a very long time to recognise that the political system on the other side is simply too paranoid or too well served by confrontation to ever really be willing to embrace peace no matter how hard you try to engage. That's the moment when you realise that containment has to be part and parcel of the approach.

Its not surprising that some retired men change not just their views -thats normal when you no longer have to toe the party line- but their held views. The more thoughtful kind take the chance to look back and reflect on what it all meant, and why things happened the way they did, where you got it right or were hopelessly wrong.

I have no idea if IK Gujral gave up on the idea of people to people contacts and Punjabiyat as having any value, but it does sound like at the very least he recognised the Pakistan Army's enduring role in sustaining confrontation and enmity.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby abhijitm » 02 Dec 2012 19:58

^^ fine but that is not a valid reason for asking RAW to wind up in pakistan. I suspect there was something more in it.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby abhijitm » 02 Dec 2012 20:11

India to erect floating fence along Sir Creek border with Pakistan
India will soon erect a 'floating fence', anchored by submerged metallic meshes, along the disputed Sir Creek border area with Pakistan.

The 96-km strip in the Rann of Kutch marshes is notorious for illegal crossings and smuggling of narcotics and arms and is patrolled round-the-clock by BSF marine commandos.
India and Pakistan are continuously in talks with regard to the maritime boundary dispute in this area.

Sources said the fence would be erected, despite the ongoing talks, in order to safeguard Indian security interest.

Officials said a number of other plans, including erecting a pontoon fence, were also discussed with engineering experts but the Home Ministry found the 'gabion box' technique apt for this project.
The Sir Creek area, including a particular stretch called 'harami nala', vulnerable for infiltration, will also be covered by the fencing.

A number of instances of the Border Security Force apprehending Pakistani fishermen and trawlers are reported from the Sir Creek area regularly and hence the border guarding force has raised and deployed a special unit called 'crocodile' commandos in the marshy territory.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Rishi » 02 Dec 2012 20:37

Off-topic, will remove shortly, but X-posting from a China thread:

From a stellar investigative article on CIA (and the killing of one of their bankers):

http://www.salon.com/2012/12/02/better_ ... nick_deak/

But the company’s most important client was always the CIA. From its founding until the late 1970s, Deak’s firm was a key financial arm of the U.S. intelligence complex. Because it carried out the foreign-currency transactions of private entities, Deak and Co. could keep track of who was spiriting money into and out of which countries.

In 1962, for example, Deak warned the CIA that China was planning to invade India after his company’s Hong Kong branch was swamped with Chinese orders for Indian rupees intended for advance soldiers. Deak’s offices were more than observation posts.


:eek: Has this been chronicled elsewhere? Indian jurnos on the board?

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6283&p=1371178#p1371178

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby chaanakya » 02 Dec 2012 20:46

Rishi wrote:Off-topic, will remove shortly, but X-posting from a China thread:

From a stellar investigative article on CIA (and the killing of one of their bankers):

http://www.salon.com/2012/12/02/better_ ... nick_deak/

But the company’s most important client was always the CIA. From its founding until the late 1970s, Deak’s firm was a key financial arm of the U.S. intelligence complex. Because it carried out the foreign-currency transactions of private entities, Deak and Co. could keep track of who was spiriting money into and out of which countries.

In 1962, for example, Deak warned the CIA that China was planning to invade India after his company’s Hong Kong branch was swamped with Chinese orders for Indian rupees intended for advance soldiers. Deak’s offices were more than observation posts.


:eek: Has this been chronicled elsewhere? Indian jurnos on the board?

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6283&p=1371178#p1371178


UK must have noticed as it was administering HK

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Comer » 02 Dec 2012 23:18

ArmenT wrote:
krishnan wrote:When did they change the official line ??

It's old hat by now. Their ex-PM Gilani already said China-Pak friendship was "...taller than the mountains, deeper than the oceans, stronger than steel, sweeter than honey" some time ago.

See relevant entry in BRF dictionary for details.


I was reading a book on North Korea and posting this verbatim from the book:

In the past, the Chinese who provided three quarters of North Korea's fuel and two thirds of its food imports, used to say they were close as "lips and teeth" to North Korea; now they wanted cash up front.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby eklavya » 03 Dec 2012 01:07

Violence in Pakistan: Escalation

Article says that there are 30 million Shias in Pakistan that are at the receiving end of violence from the Taliban and other sectarian terrorist groups. Also says that the sectarian groups killing the Shias enjoy state patronage and protection. Also, no evidence of organised Shia resistance to the onslaught.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby RajeshA » 03 Dec 2012 01:18

Through third parties, India should provide massive amounts of weaponry to Pakistani Shias, Ahmedis and MQM, and also get them trained. No group in Pakistan should be able to get the upper hand.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby lakshmikanth » 03 Dec 2012 01:42

partha wrote:Image

Online protest :lol: This is how powerful and brave the RAPEs are. Remember how RAPEs announced anti blasphemy rally and had to downhill ski and cancel it following threats? But outrage and protests against Babri masjid demolition, Bangladesh fire, Israel, Rohingyas are easy and safe, no?


There is another question to ask the sekoolar sauth asian motorma is the following: What about the Hindu Genocide in Bakistan, and the latest display of which was achieved by razing Hindu temple to the ground?

Crimes against Hindus do not matter, because motorma hates herself for being born one and hence cannot empathize. She is truly sekoolar! Jai Ho!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby Anujan » 03 Dec 2012 01:47

partha wrote:Image

Online protest :lol: This is how powerful and brave the RAPEs are. Remember how RAPEs announced anti blasphemy rally and had to downhill ski and cancel it following threats? But outrage and protests against Babri masjid demolition, Bangladesh fire, Israel, Rohingyas are easy and safe, no?


She will stand up and shout slogans while browsing the net from the US :mrgreen:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby member_22872 » 03 Dec 2012 02:00

I thought she is an Indian, but no, I was wrong. "Beena Sarwar is a leading journalist, artist and filmmaker from Pakistan", says wiki. She is just being a Paki, you cant expect anything more from her can you?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Oct 4 2012

Postby partha » 03 Dec 2012 07:24

Shri B Raman on IKG

Image


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