Understanding Islamic Society

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby member_28638 » 24 Jun 2015 13:29

Islam is a peaceful and non-violent religion!

========================

Islamic State: Militants drown, decapitate 'spies' in brutal new video


The Islamic State group has released a video showing the jihadists murdering 16 men by drowning some in a cage, decapitating others with explosives, and firing a rocket-propelled grenade into a car.

The video, apparently shot in Iraq's Nineveh province, was one of the most brutal yet in a series released by the terrorists of killings of opponents in areas under IS control.

IS has executed hundreds of people by gunfire, dozens by beheading, stoned some to death, thrown others from buildings and burned a captured Jordanian pilot alive.

Videos of the killings are a key propaganda tool of the jihadists, used to shock and terrify their enemies as well as to draw in new recruits seeking the most brutal and active militant group.

The men killed in the latest video are said to be "spies", with some of them making recorded "confessions".

First, the militants lead four men to a car and close the doors, after which one fires a rocket-propelled grenade under the vehicle, setting it alight.

A militant is later shown locking five men inside a metal cage, which is then lifted by a crane and submerged in what appears to be a dirty swimming pool.

Two cameras affixed to the outside of the cage show the men's deaths in the murky water.

The last killings show a militant looping blue detonating cord around the necks of seven kneeling men, after which the explosives are set off and some of the men are decapitated.
...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-06-24/i ... eo/6568650

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby ramana » 26 Jun 2015 02:47

X-Post...
Vipul wrote:How Saudi funded Rs 1,700 crore for Wahabi influence in India.

Last year violence broke out near a Mosque in Bommanhalli, Bengaluru and what was being termed as minor tiff was in fact a case of some youth trying to impose the Wahabi preachings. When the seniors in the administration of the Mosque opposed these youth, there were clashes in which 4 persons were injured seriously.

In another incident that occurred in Maharashtra, Wahabi scholars bribed some members of the Mosque and attempted taking over the administration. While the Muslims in many states have opposed the Wahabis tooth and nail, success for the Saudi Arabia sponsored Wahabis was highest in Kerala.

These are instances that could be read with the recent Wikileaks documents which suggested that Saudi Arabia is worried about the growing influence of Iran over India and the outreach by Tehran to the Shia community was worrying. The Muslim World League also requests Saudi Arabia to establish Wahabi centres in India to counter the threat from the Shias. How Saudi Arabia set up Wahabi centres in India?

Saudi Arabia realizes that the Shias in India are a threat to the dominance of the Sunni community. India houses a large number of Shias and this according to the Saudis gives Iran an upper hand in India. However for Saudi the Sunnis in India have not followed the violent Wahabi style of Islam and there are many seniors in the Muslim community who will not allow that to happen.

The only way Saudi could instill a radical thinking in the minds of the Sunni Muslims in India was by the establishment of Wahabi centres. The Wahabis are an extremely orthodox set of Sunni Muslims. There are several Muslims in India who subscribe to the Wahabi view. As a first step, Saudi sent in several Wahabi preachers into India an Intelligence Bureau report states.

The years 2011 to 2013 alone saw a record number of 25,000 Wahabis coming to India and conducting seminars in various parts of the country. With them they brought in Rs 1700 crore in several installments and used it to propogate the Wahabi style of Islam.

Wahabism found success in Kerala: The drive by Saudi to impose the Wahabi culture in India has not been entirely a success. The highest rate of success that they have witnessed is in Kerala.

This is a lot to do with the fact that there is a large population of people who go to Saudi in search of employment. Many in Kerala have welcomed with open arms the Wahabi style of preaching and this has let the Saudi controlled lot take control over nearly 75 Mosques in the state.

The newer Mosques that are coming up in Kerala are also constructed in the manner in which they done in Saudi Arabia. This is just one small indicator of how much people of the state are willing to follow the radical style preached by the Wahabi scholars. Moreover the inflow of funds into Kerala from Saudi is the highest when compared to any other part of the country.

It was in Kerala that one got to see posters mourning the death of Osama Bin Laden and also a prayer for Ajmal Kasab after he was hanged. Intelligence Bureau officials tell OneIndia that a large number of youth appear to be attracted to this radical style of Islam, but also add that there are some elders who are trying to oppose it. The Wahabi rule book in India:

Each time a Wahabi preacher comes to India, he comes in with a rule book. What they intend to do is ensure that the rule book is circulated in the Mosques.


However when the administration of the Mosques have opposed this it has led to clashes. The rule book has a set of guidelines which need to be adhered to failing which the horrific Sharia law would be imposed. Here are a couple of guidelines that have been set as per the Wahabi rule book:
• Shrines shall be forbidden
• Every Muslim woman should wear purdah or be subject to severe punishment
• Men have to compulsorily grow beards • Women should not be allowed to work. Exception can be made only if the family is in need.
• Men and women should not mingle together in public.
• No weeping loudly at funerals.
• Abide by the Shariat law; every offence committed shall be punishable under this law.
• All men should wear trousers which are above their ankles.
• No laughing loudly or listening to music; no dancing or watching television.

Wahabi universities being set up:
The Saudi sponsored Wahabis are aiming to set up their own education system in India as well. Out of the total Rs 1700 crore that has been earmarked for the cause, Rs 800 crore is being spent on setting up Universities in different parts of the country. One such university was seen in Andhra Pradesh as well. Over all they propose to set up 4 such universities which will only cater to Wahabi preachings. With the take over of the existing Mosques becoming extremely difficult, they have earmarked Rs 400 crore to set up 40 Mosques adhering only to Wahabi preachings in different parts of the country. A sum of Rs 300 has been been earmarked to set up Madrasas while the remaining Rs 200 crore has been set aside as miscellaneous costs which also would include bribes to paid off to Mosque authorities as was seen in Maharashtra.

The birth of the Jamiat Ahl-e-Hadith:
The birth of the Jamiat Ahl-e-Hadith took place in India in the state of Jammu and Kashmir. As a first step they wielded their influence on the various Mosques which began preaching the Sharia law as mandated by the Wahabis.

The next stop was Maharashtra and Uttar Pradesh following which they began wielding influence heavily in Kerala. The Jamiat Ahl-e-Hadith was the umbrella body which oversaw the flow of Wahabi scholars into India. The same outfit is also making efforts to spread their ideology into Andhra Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh, Bihar and until last year Karantaka.



Note the ISIS/ISL have same Wahabi guidelines.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby ramana » 01 Jul 2015 19:22

The rise of ISIS means the post colonial monarchial Arab states are in jeopardy. The old post colonial order based on sheikhs and sultans and kings is on its way out. And is being swept away by religion inspired fundamentalist revolutionary movement.
Its return to old normal in the Middle East.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby ramana » 08 Jul 2015 23:06

http://indiafacts.co.in has a series of articles of "Analyzing Quran through Dharmic Perspective" by M Chatterjee.
It is a translation of "Who is Allah?" by late Satyananda Saraswati in Bengali.

Please post here for completeness.

http://indiafacts.co.in/analysing-the-q ... roduction/

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Agnimitra » 26 Aug 2015 05:30

Here is a storified set of tweets about LGBT rights and practice within Islamic Caliphates, which have been cherished and persecuted simultaneously, because of their esoteric sexual nature within Islam.

History of LGBT rights cherished within Islam

In order to highlight the history of tolerance for LGBT within subtle Islam, this has been shared (tweet here) with the currently trending twitter hashtag #Muslims_Are_Not_Drag_Queens started against the movement lead by British Pakistani transexual Asifa Lahore:

Muslim Drag Queens

In modern times, the friction is about outrage over the veil being lifted from the strange, esoteric value attached to it, as a forbiden fruit restricted only to Islamic paradise (Jannah). There is no doubt that LGBT - and even institutional pedophilia - has flourished within the Muslim Middle East from its earliest times. However, it was always treated as either a sexually esoteric taste, or as a display of power and dominance by the nobility or wealthy.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby ramana » 10 Sep 2015 22:19

Agnimitra please document the series of tweets you have on the message thread.

Thanks,

ramana

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Agnimitra » 13 Sep 2015 11:02

ramana wrote:Agnimitra please document the series of tweets you have on the message thread.

The discussion was about the Adhidaivika (subtle powers that influence natural phenomena, events of past, present and future, etc) versus the Adhibhautika (purely physical) and Adhyatmika (psychological and spiritual). The discussion was about whether or not Adhidaivata (AD) potentials could be used in defensive or offensive acts for the sake of a civilization.

One discussant said, "Islam is a Pishacha-upasana...so placating Djinns comes naturally to them." Beyond this, it was assumed that there is no Adhidaivika realm in the Abrahamic religions. However, this is not true.

Discussion wrote:The Qur'an mentions the angels Harut and Marut who had taught the faithful AD tricks to vanquish enemies, but warns that that was only for the sake of self-defence and not to be pursued for their own sake. The names Harut and Marut are definitely of Zoroastrian origin.

A lot of it goes back to Kabbalah and Zoroastrianism. In some schools of Islam, when pone is introduced to the kalmah, 5 points are laid out that need to be accepted - one of these being something like - "the existence of angels in the cosmos - the physical Sun has a corresponding angel associated with it", etc.

They believe in hierarchies of beings in the Unseen - so its not all just "paishacha" only. Of course even revelation comes from the Archangels - Gabriel in Muhammad's case.

Whether Daivi or Asuriya... AD is definitely there. I am not clear yet on all the differences...but the difference is in the form of an undercurrent - externally there is a superficial correspondence between both sides at all levels. Even on the non-Abrahamic 'Dharmic' side - Tibetan Budhism has its own AD - with many Asura names.

Also, I think AD should also include methods of mass mobilization or hypnotism - fundamental parts of some types of priestcraft. A lot of AD is based on a gradient on a scale of Agreement. Generating mass appeal or "faith" is part of that. It is also directly related to political outcomes.

Continuing - in Islam (not just Sufi variety but also mainstream), meeting with AD figures like Khidr / Khizr are considered almost crucial steps on the path. Some propaganda artists among the Islamics sometimes try to show that Buddha was an incarnation (yes they have that concept) of Khidr/Khizr (probably in order to poach on Buddhist spirituality in the West, and also the significant attraction of Buddhism in Islamic countries).

The question was raised: "Will advent of ISIS, what is is prospect of Islamic AD survival? Isn't Wahabism antithesis to AD?"

It depends. Wahabism is like an Arya Samaj to Islamic AD - could actually enhance focus by rubbishing the bhautik *symbols*...OR it could have a negative impact. I find that many highly focused entrants to Sufism have been through a "Wahabi phase". So these days, one important point that Sufi Sheikhs emphasize is that the mureed should learn to be comfortable with the fact that the Unseen has a variety of beings who can and do communicate with humans. Not be solely focused on an abstract unitary "Allah". Yet, many of these Sufi masters "connive" with Wahabism by saying "it is part of what is prophesied". This is because Wahabism should be seen as a "phase".

But, "Arya samaj is definitely antithesis (to large extent) to Deshi AD."
Well, if Arya Samaj serves as a "portal" to Mimamsa and Yoga, then it can be seen in a different light. By itself it is "antithesis" - but in concert with thesis it can yield a positive spinoff.

On a tangential note - Western churches with a more obvious infusion of their gnostic traditions, such as Mormonism, are also big on AD. The church has clairvoyants and others who can tell you all about your past and presage the future, like astrologers. They also assign members into one of the "12 tribes of Israel" - a sort of social division based on basic nature. But in the Protestant Christian West, most AD streams have been stereotyped as diabolical.

In the Islamic world today, most Islamism is a political concert between Sufism and Wahabism, with the former being the senior partner. They are not totally at war, as is often portrayed. Both, their concert and their friction, are seen as necessary by Islamic thinkers. It is a well-known hadith that Muhammad prophesied at the End Of Times,the rulers of Najd (Saudi heartland) will lead a movement exactly like Wahabism today. It sets off a sort of psychological dynamic by an implosion at the core.

It seems that the Christian West understands this internal dynamic. Imam Ghazzali had brokered the formal marriage by fusing these two innate strands of Islam into a Jarasandha-like powerful being. The West is trying to selectively upset the balance and tear these apart and put them at cross purposes with one another. [Ref. blogpost "Owais and Owaisi: Two halves of Jarasandha"]

Naqshbandi and other Sufis understand this Western game and are always establishing supportive channels with Wahhabis. Some act as the glue to hold it together. In Pakistan, see the role of "Islamist Sufis" like Ghamidi - who shift their goalposts depending on the situation.

Many stories of Islamic savants using AD powers to influence forces of nature, etc. E.g., case of the famous mathematician and astronomer (cum Islamic scholar) Jamshid Kashani, who meditated and then lead communal prayers and thereby supposedly ended a drought, causing massive downpours that cleaned the city's water system and thereby ended the cause for a water-borne epidemic.

Several ahadith (especially current among Sufi tariqats) about Muhammad himself influencing weather patterns and other events. A significant chunk of such ahadith is about his connection with weather, lightning, rain, dawn, dusk, etc.

As regards trikala-jnana, it is a standard part of Islamic spirituality - not just Sufism. Called "firasat" in Naqshbandi tariqah.

Several authentic ahadith seem related to AD aspects. There is actually a separate, distinct type of salat (namaz) for almost every 20 minute period of the day/night. The 5 basic types of namaz are only for laymen. For actual sadhakas, there are umpteen. Several savants who lived in forests, hills, etc often practiced the different types of namazes around the clock.

Question: "where does dharmik AD come in here? What are the fundamentals of Abrahmic AD? In dharma, it is basically karma-siddhanta and methods of tampering it (either communally or in person-specific manner)."

I feel that some of these were stolen from Indic tantra systems (and then attributed to Muhammad via some hidden line of transmission - as is usual). The reason is that some of the most copious literature on these AD type round-the-clock namazes were written by Islamic converted savants in places like present-day Bangladesh. And we know that Bengal has been a center of tantra for long.

The tantra of AD often involves alignment of one's psychological sense of time with chronological and cosmic time. So these practices are pointers.

Now if one reads the works of even modern Islamist philosophers like Said Nursi (who was a Turkish "shatavadhani") - one can see a lot of material exactly like karma-siddhanta. A lot of his corpus - Rusale Nur - talks about how to change destiny, though he himself felt that the demolition of the Ottoman Empire was karmically *necessary* - and he explained it to the Russians who once imprisoned him.

As regards personal targeting - Islam definitely has a lot of this about spells, drishti (buri nazar), etc - about protecting oneself from it, but also attacking (though this part is not public).

Regards fundamentals of Abrahamic AD (which is fused with older Greek 'pagan' AD) - they differentiate "black", "grey" and "white" magic. The black is related to influencing others materially. White is about influencing solely one's own spiritual path by removing spiritual obstacles by wisely investing one's own material karma. The "grey" tries to make a combination of both. In terms of sexual practices related to these 3 types, the differentiation is based on types of sexual celibacy or practice.

My hunch is that a lot of the karma-siddhanta of the Abrahamics goes back to the "Khaetvodatha" concept in Avestan Gathas - and how one's personal life trajectory puts one in contact with an environment at the intersection of the human, animal, plant and mineral kingdoms - and by modulating one's habits and enjoyment/abstinence from these in combination with one's Daena (deen) and its access to the Yazatas (gods) one can effect certain changes.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Agnimitra » 17 Sep 2015 17:56

More on the Adhidaivika and Islam -

First a news item - Since the beginning, there are 'loopholes' in Shari'ah to permit the use of entheogenic substances, even though alcohol consumption is generally banned:

Senior Iranian Ayatollah rules in favor of entheogens

Interesting that the couple who lobbied the Iranian government for this legislation is well-connected with the international entheogen community.

Entheogenic Islam – On Haoma and Ayahuasca
“The ḥarmal does not grow, whether from a tree, a leaf or a fruit, without there being an angelic guardian spirit attached to it.” Muhammed (a.s)

“I believe that Shiism is the only school which has preserved for ever the link of the divine guidance between God and the creatures and has kept alive the rule of the divine authority. I believe that all religions pursue a fact but it is only the Shia school which has preserved this fact believing that this characteristic remains for ever between the human and divine world.” Henry Corbin

The starting point of my excursions into Islam’s relationship with plant medicines and psychoactive plants, is this interview in Reality Sandwich with my husband, Wahid Azal. My husband, together with brothers, obtained in 2014 a Fatwa (legal ruling) by Grand-Ayatollah Rohani in Iran concerning the permission to use psychoactive plants (including Ayahuasca) for purposes of treatment and spiritual growth.

Quote from the interview:
“To make a long story short, after well over a year and a half of back and forth discussions and correspondences between my friend (and one other individual) with the office of Grand Ayatollah Sayyed Mohammad Sadeq Hussaini Rohani in Qom, Iran; in mid March 2014, via email, the Grand Ayatollah issued a formal legal ruling (that is, afatwa) determining the use of entheogens and psychoactive substances to be licit and thus permissible (ḥalāl) for Shi’i Muslims provided it be under the direction and supervision of qualified experts (ahl al-ikhtiṣāṣ), and that, moreover, such plant substances as a rule do not impair the mind.”

...

This ruling is very encouraging in many aspects. It is a further step to reclaim Islamic and Iranian traditional medicine, identity, spirituality and the communion with the “plant spirit world” for humans and for holistic treatment. I have personally little experience with Haoma but study the world of herbs, flowers, grass and plants and I am a enthusiastic gardener and communicator with the “subtle plant realms”. It is further very encouraging to find that the prophet Mohammed (pbuh) himself endorsed the use of a spiritual plant medicine such as the Harmal/Esfand/Syrian Rue:

“As far as the evidence in the Islamic period is concerned: in his monumental 110 volume collection of Islamic traditions and narrations attributed to the holy Islamic figures (i.e. the Prophet Muḥammad and the holy Imāms), and entitled The Oceans of the Lights (biḥār al-anwār), the Safavid narrator-traditionist and polymath Muḥammad Bāqir Majlisī (d. 1659) devotes an entire chapter of his 59th volume to the sayings of the Islamic holy figures regarding both the Syrian Rue and Olibanum (frankincense). Let me quote one of these here:

The Messenger of God [i.e. the Prophet Muḥammad] said: the ḥarmal [i.e. Syrian Rue/Esfand] does not grow, whether from a tree, a leaf or a fruit, without there being an angelic guardian spirit attached to it, until it reaches whosoever it reaches, or turns to waste. In both its root and its branches there is a talisman. In its seeds there is a cure for seventy-two maladies, so treat yourselves with it, as well as with the olibanum [i.e. frankincense], for purposes of healing. (…)”


The Fatimiya Sufi Order and Ayahuasca

There's nothing unique about this new Sufi order - such substances have been used for a long time within Islam - and obviously have pre-Islamic use as the name "Haoma" (Avestan for Soma) suggests.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby ramana » 17 Sep 2015 23:04

Good job Agnimitra.

Also can you see if you can relate the Sufis to Turkic Buddhist tribes/orders?

I see it strange that the locations coincide.

IOW are the Sufis former Buddhist monks who have reconciled to Islam dominance and worked with it?

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Agnimitra » 21 Sep 2015 05:10

ramana wrote:Also can you see if you can relate the Sufis to Turkic Buddhist tribes/orders?

I see it strange that the locations coincide.

IOW are the Sufis former Buddhist monks who have reconciled to Islam dominance and worked with it?

That's true of all Sufism originating from Balkh (N. Afghanistan) - from where "Rumi", etc. are - and further north into C. Asia. There was active Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Manichean syncretism in those areas.

In other parts of Central and Western Iran, there was mainly Zoroastrian, Mithraic and Manichean influence.

Further West, there was mostly Hebrew Kabbala and Greek influence.

Further east from Afghanistan, it was Hindu influence, culminating (ironically) in Imam Rabbani.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Agnimitra » 20 Oct 2015 04:22

Useful to follow ideas that are floating around, causing alliances to form:

This eminent sheikh Imran Hosein's speeches have been interesting to folow for the last few years. His specialty is eschatology. Here is the latest - and this time its not to an audience of the faithful, but to a group of Westerners, including Orthodox Russians. Clearly, Russia also understands his use in moulding mass opinion in the Islamic world:

Islam, Petro-Dollar & Russia's Tryst with Destiny - Sheikh Imran Hosein


Salient points:

1. In current phase, the Dajjal wants to diminish US' power and exalt Israeli suzerainty. Part of the tactic has always been to cause Shi'a-Sunni civil war. ISIS is also part of that.

2. Surprisingly, he talks of "the evil essence of the Ottoman Empire" - apparently a Dajjal conspiracy to keep the true Muslims from uniting with their Eastern Orthodox Christian brothers.

3. Says that from Qur'anic indications, Eastern Orthodoxy will be the ally of true Islam during End of Times - but not before a nuclear war and re-conquest of Constantinople.

4. Says BRICS is primary threat to Dajjal West.

5. Also repeats an idea floating around, that Greece was subverted and destroyed financially as part of Dajjal war against Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

Pretty warm reception with several Russian Orthodox people in attendance, as Russia pummels Daesh.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby devesh » 20 Oct 2015 08:23

interesting twists and turns. the amount of "conditioning", and careful distortions in the above guy's narrative would be amusing if it wasn't so deceptive.

The Islamist "process" has already entered the next phase. The collapse of Islamic empire in India (18th century) started a phase in Islamism which ended with the death of the Ottomans. Before that, the retreat of Islam from Spain and parts of East-Europe (Late 15th/early 16th century) also heralded the previous phase of Islamism.

In the wake of their "loss" of Hindusthan, Islamists have been experimenting with a variety of techniques since 20th century. In modern phase, Democracy is now an ally of Islamism. BD, Iran (the initial phase, and even now a warped 'democracy'), Malaysia, Indonesia, and Mauritius are simply the more prominent examples of how democracy can be manipulated by Islamism.

What ISIS is doing now is forcing the democracy experiments to quickly move to the next phase.

this also means that all those forces and structures that have deep penetration or "alliance" with Islamics will also show erratic tendencies in their political choices and actions. This will also effect India - we are not free from the Islamist virus (India is very much part of the Islamist networks that survived the 18th century assault by Indics, and have now rebuilt under Brit and Secular India's protection).

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby member_29089 » 20 Oct 2015 12:10

cross posting

GunterH wrote:


This is a classic propaganda by the British (or west) to slyly suggest that Mo plagiarized the crap. If Oxford wanted to prove one predates the other they would have compared fragments from BOTH and then declare the results. For example along with the fragment of Koran they should have carbon dated one of following; a fragment of a love letter written by Mo to Ayesha (or Rehana, Maria, or any of 13 official wives). A fragment of wick from the grenade from the turban. Or even a fragment from the white wing feathers of the horse. By simply dating a fragment from only one piece and declaring one predates the other sounds like a cheap shot at one of the great religions of the world. I bet if fragments from BOTH are compared then the dates will match precisely. Just my two dinars.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby ramana » 18 Nov 2015 04:29

Feel sorry for the baby who was killed right after birth.
Also for the mother who killed her.
She is a child too.
And wonder what Islam does to parents.

XX wrote:Bure Baki teen gets pregnant and kills baby.

Teen dropped her newborn from high-rise after hiding pregnancy: Prosecutors
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... story.html
An Uptown woman dropped her newborn girl from an eighth-floor window late Wednesday, killing the baby, because she feared discovery by her family, prosecutors said Saturday.

Mubashra Uddin, 19, was ordered held without bail on a first-degree murder charge Saturday after a hearing in Cook County Bond Court. The newborn, now being called Baby Jane Uddin in police reports, was found in the grass outside a high-rise in the 800 block of West Eastwood Avenue about 11:45 p.m. Wednesday, according to authorities.

Uddin did not appear in court Saturday because she is hospitalized.

Donna Pedraza straightens up a bear on Nov. 14, 2015, that had been blown over by the wind as stuffed animals, flowers and cards surround a tree in the grassy area where prosecutors say Mubashra Uddin, 19, dropped her newborn girl from an eighth-floor apartment window on Nov. 11, 2015, killing the baby. The incident occurred in the 800 block of block of West Eastwood Avenue in the Uptown neighborhood of Chicago. (Anthony Souffle / Chicago Tribune)

When Uddin became pregnant by her boyfriend and took a pregnancy test, she told her boyfriend and a friend, but did not tell her family, because she knew her Pakistani Muslim parents would not approve, said Assistant State’s Attorney Patrick Turnock. Judge Peggy Chiampas said that Uddin’s family circumstances would be important in the case, and would be considered.

During her pregnancy, Uddin, a student at Devry University, wore clothing to help hide the pregnancy and kept it a secret from her family, Turnock said.

On Wednesday, Uddin went into labor at the eighth-floor apartment she shares with her parents and younger sister, in the bedroom she shares with a sister, Turnock said. She gave birth about 11:20 p.m. to a full-term, 7 pound, 11 ounce girl.

After the baby was born, Uddin heard her mother approaching the bedroom, so Uddin opened a bedroom window and dropped the girl out, Turnock said.

The baby fell 8 stories and landed on a grassy area near the apartment building. A man found her naked and bloody, but still breathing, and alerted security at the building to call 911, Turnock said.
Baby found in Uptown

Chicago police investigate the discovery of the body of a baby girl in the Uptown neighborhood late Nov. 11, 2015. (WGN-TV)

The man wrapped the baby in shirts and went back to his own home and retrieved two baby blankets for the girl, then waited for paramedics to arrive, Turnock said.

The girl was taken to Weiss Memorial Hospital, where she died at 12:25 a.m. Thursday from her massive injuries, Turnock said.

The girl suffered complex skull fractures, a fractured spine, a broken left shoulder, fractured left and right ribs and a lacerated aorta, lacerated liver and lacerated bowel and suffered from blood in the abdomen, Turnock said. The Cook County medical examiner's office later declared the death a homicide by blunt-force trauma.

After the baby was found, police canvassed the area and learned from people they talked to that they thought Uddin might have been pregnant, Turnock said. They also figured out that Uddin’s apartment was directly above where the infant was found.

When police went to Uddin’s family’s apartment, they found blood in several places in the bedroom and bathroom, as well as bloody sheets and a bloody scissors, Turnock said. When investigators interviewed her, Uddin at first denied she had anything to do with the infant, but made “multiple admissions” on video.

Uddin is scheduled to appear in Cook County Violence Court on Monday for a bond review hearing.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby wig » 21 Nov 2015 11:44

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... urism.html

Teenager exposes India's 'one month wives' sex tourism

A 17-year-old girl has exposed the scale of Islamic sex tourism in India where Muslim men from the Middle East and Africa are buying 'one month wives' for sex.

Campaigners for Muslim women's rights said while short term 'contract marriages' are illegal in India and forbidden in Islam, they are increasing in Hyderabad, in southern India, where wealthy foreigners, local agents and 'Qazis' – government-appointed Muslim priests – are exploiting poverty among the city's Muslim families.

The victim, Nausheen Tobassum, revealed the scale of the problem when she escaped from her home last month after her parents pressurised her to consummate a forced marriage to a middle aged Sudanese man who had paid around £1,200 for her to be his 'wife' for four weeks.

She told police she had been taken by her aunt to a hotel where she and three other teenage girls were introduced to a Sudanese oil company executive. The 'groom', Usama Ibrahim Mohammed, 44 and married with two children in Khartoum, later arrived at her home where a Qazi performed a wedding ceremony.
According to Inspector Vijay Kumar he had paid 100,000 Rupees (around £1,200) to the girl's aunt Mumtaz Begum, who in turn paid 70,000 Rupees to her parents, 5,000 Rupees to the Qazi, 5,000 Rupees to an Urdu translator and kept 20,000 Rupees herself. The wedding certificate came with a 'Talaknama' which fixed the terms of the divorce at the end of the groom's holiday.

"The next day he came to the house of the victim girl and asked her to participate in sex but she refused. She is a young girl and the groom is older than her father," Inspector Kumar told The Telegraph.
Her parents reassured him they would persuade their daughter and told her she would be punished if she did not. Instead she ran out of their tiny one room home in Hyderabad's Moghulpuri neighbourhood and was rescued by a police patrol. The police arrested the groom, the victim's aunt and the Qazi, and issued a warrant for her parents' arrest – Nausheen is a minor under Indian law and cannot marry until she reaches 18. Her parents are now in hiding but will be charged with arranging a child marriage, 'outraging the modesty' of a woman, and criminal conspiracy.

Inspector Kumar said there are dozens of illegal short term contract marriages in the city, and that the Sudanese man they arrested had come to Hyderabad after a friend in Khartoum told him he had taken a '40 day wife' during an earlier visit.

"If a Sudanese wants to have sex, he has to pay three times more [in Sudan] because there are far fewer girls there, or he takes a second wife. In India the girls are coming for a cheaper rate and they are beautiful. Even if they are only staying for a few days they are doing this kind of illegal marriages for sex," he said.

He said the visitors want to marry because they believe prostitution is forbidden under Islam. Poor families agree to contract marriages because they have many daughters and cannot afford to pay for all their weddings.

Instead, they have a series of one-month contract 'marriages' to fund their own genuine wedding.

Shiraz Amina Khan of Hyderabad's Women and Child Welfare Society, said there were up to 15 'contract marriages' in the city every month and that the number is rising.

"They come to Hyderabad because it has maximum downtrodden families. Thirty to forty per cent of families are going for the option of contract marriages to relieve their poverty. It has to be stopped," she said.

Nausheen Tobassum, who is now living in a government home for girls said in an interview before she was placed in care, that she had filed a complaint to stop the same thing happening to other girls.

"I didn't know what was happening and I agreed in ignorance. They forced me. They changed my date of birth certificate and made a fake one, where I was shown as 24 years old. They exploit girls and that's why I went to police. I had to show courage to go to police against my parents. I don't want to go back to my home, I am scared," she said.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby RoyG » 21 Nov 2015 19:14

devesh wrote:interesting twists and turns. the amount of "conditioning", and careful distortions in the above guy's narrative would be amusing if it wasn't so deceptive.

The Islamist "process" has already entered the next phase. The collapse of Islamic empire in India (18th century) started a phase in Islamism which ended with the death of the Ottomans. Before that, the retreat of Islam from Spain and parts of East-Europe (Late 15th/early 16th century) also heralded the previous phase of Islamism.

In the wake of their "loss" of Hindusthan, Islamists have been experimenting with a variety of techniques since 20th century. In modern phase, Democracy is now an ally of Islamism. BD, Iran (the initial phase, and even now a warped 'democracy'), Malaysia, Indonesia, and Mauritius are simply the more prominent examples of how democracy can be manipulated by Islamism.

What ISIS is doing now is forcing the democracy experiments to quickly move to the next phase.

this also means that all those forces and structures that have deep penetration or "alliance" with Islamics will also show erratic tendencies in their political choices and actions. This will also effect India - we are not free from the Islamist virus (India is very much part of the Islamist networks that survived the 18th century assault by Indics, and have now rebuilt under Brit and Secular India's protection).


I'll be alive to see the 2nd partitioning of India. Tufail recently revealed an interesting statistic at Ideas. We are going to have the largest Muslim population in 2050 (~33%). It will be interesting to see how we deal with this and how much territory they annex. The arc of fire will run from Kashmir to Bangladesh.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby ramana » 04 Dec 2015 15:21

Three x-posts and my comments:

1) Shiv in TSP thread after San Bernardino shooting in USA by a Pakistani origin man and his wife.

shiv wrote:America is too secular to study Islamic upbringing as an explanation. They will beat about the bush and compare themselves with terrorists and say "We are rich. We are innovative. they are not. That makes them angry"

Any person with a clear mind would look at what is perfectly well known. An Islamic upbringing lays very clear borders from childhood. Muslims are good. Non Muslims are bad. Non Muslims ill treat Muslims '. When they do that they can be punished. When this is the basic information a person has in his head - he can carry on with life under certain circumstances - mostly when he is surrounded by fellow Muslims in an oil droplet or among others as long as he is not reminded of all the injustices being done by dar ul harb. If you do that and give him a weapon, he wiill kill.

This information has been available in India for centuries. But the problem is American piskology because they think they know it all and have it all and think that people who get an American life have no reason to be upset except when tornadoes come. The US will never pin the blame on Islam because the "diagnosis" is too close to what Christianity also says and American Christians can be just as humane as Islamists



2) Gus replied

Gus wrote:What shiv says is true. There really is not much analysis into the why - beyond crude explanations like "they hate our freedom." And then the apologists step in with their "hush don't be islamophobic"

If you fill somebody with a strong sense of identity and also a deep grievance that his entire community has been wronged and victimized and it is ok to kill for this and not just ok, but heavenly rewards as well and even if such a person lives the "American Dream" - it is not impossible to "radicalize" that person..the basic dots are all there and somebody skilled in jihadi rhetoric can make him connect dots and come to the conclusion - kill kafirs


3) Shiv wrote...
shiv wrote:By definition the idea of Pakistan is an idea of victimhood of Muslims and a refuge for Muslims. Pakistan may be unlivable hell but non islamic places are murderous. Piety in being Muslim is the only protection. This is not mullah to mard info. It is parents to children info. Take such a guy and put him in America, he will thank Allah for his success there. He will know that he is living among bad people but his piety protects him. Give him access to social media that inform him that the US is killing Muslims, and he will be upset at the injustice.

Such a guy is ripe for recruitment. Money and US. luxuries are easy come easy go, but greatness is in wreaking revenge against those who kill Muslims. This theme is so common it makes me laugh to see the US struggling to see it. Or they do not want to see, so convinced are they that being American is being in heaven except for the occasional tornado. Too much is made of the joy and security of being American so people wonder how anyone can be upset inheaven. The answer is invariaby garbage. GIGO.


I bolded the most important observations in the three posts. My view is Abraham is the root of this ideology. His idea of his own personal God who travels with him in his travels to various kingdoms that have presiding deities is the root meme of Islam. Fortunately Judaism did not allow conversions and limited the numbers of adherents. The Old Testament is a litany of grievances and imagined insults that are carried to extreme ends. Paul took Jesus teachings of reform Judaism and made conversions possible. Early Christians had the same grievance meme in full on mode as they could increase their numbers.

Muhammad took the conversion idea from Christians and appended it to Abrahmic grievance liturgy. So shiv and Gus's observations are grounded in the history of the Abrahamic cults.

In India we see that seculars who are a product of the colonised mind have the same takleef/grievance meme driving them. They outrage over some imagined insult and deprivation of some illusory right.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby ramana » 04 Dec 2015 19:20

Two X-posts that follow each other. One is the theory and second is example that matches the theory.

shiv wrote:Like India has always worn "secularism" on its forehead the US has always pushed itself as a "melting pot" where everyone become American no matter where he comes from. I guess the US faces the same thorny political issues blaming a particular ethnic group or nationality. There is no internal group in the US that has experienced violence from Islam - unlike India which has strong civilizational memories that enable these things to be discussed despite suppression of truth. I think that sort of discussion bubbling to the top enables social adjustments to be made among different groups - but please don't ask me to prove this by examples - this is just a sort of impression I have.

I call your attention to the following 2 images that I had created a long time ago to describe Islamic societal structure while living with an excess of non Muslims

The shooter in San Bernadino was described by his father as a good Muslim and he had described himself as a Muslim. So although he probably passed off as what I have called "Muslim world citizen" in the melting pot of the US he was actually sitting on the cusp between core Islamist and "assimilated Muslim". He just tipped over into core Islamist and went apeshit

The point is that it is possible to have a free exchange between core Islamist and assimilated Muslim. You will not see the difference if behaviour is one of assimilated Muslim but he suddenly goes off the deep end and does something violent after hiding his core Islamist belief

ImageImage
https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/665831774392422401



and
{quote="Falijee"}Pakistani-origin couple kept tight lid on plans for San Bernardino shooting
SAN BERNARDINO, CALIFORNIA:
Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik met online and married two years ago, after he presented himself on a Muslim dating site as a devout young man who liked to fix cars and memorize the Quran. They registered at Target when Malik became pregnant, with a cheery newlyweds’ catalog of wishes: a car seat, diapers and safety swabs.

Outwardly Amrikhan, inwardly "green as ever" :mrgreen:
But for all the outward signs of suburban normality, this couple, according to the police, used their comfortable home in a middle-class community near here to stockpile weapons and build pipe bombs. And on Wednesday morning, they left their 6-month-old daughter with her grandmother before heading to a holiday party with Farook’s co-workers where, the police say, they killed 14 people and wounded 21 others. A few hours later, they died in a crush of bullets in a brutal face-off with the police.

More like them will "surface" in the near future, if the "right" condition present themselves .
As investigators puzzle over their motives, the couple — the husband born in Illinois and raised in southern California, the wife born in Pakistan and recently residing in Saudi Arabia ( the ideological HQ of world terrorism) — have emerged as one of the most perplexing pairs in the recent history of mass homicide. Their lives, and motives, remain mysteries to investigators, who are looking at possible ties to international terrorism (100% percent ) but have not ruled out the possibility that this was the bloody culmination of a workplace dispute. (zero percent )

Farook and Malik were highly devout Muslims, described by friends as quiet and unobtrusive. Farook, 28, who was a lanky six feet tall and had a full beard during long periods of his life, graduated from California State University, San Bernardino, with a degree in environmental engineering. He worked for the San Bernardino County health department, checking food surfaces at restaurants and bakeries and chlorine levels in public swimming pools.

Far less is publicly known about Malik, 27, who lived with Farook and his mother in Redlands, about five miles from where the attack took place. Farook brought her to the United States in July 2014, with a Pakistani passport and a K-1 visa, which designated her his fiancée. He applied for a permanent resident green card for her in September 2014, and she was granted a conditional card last July after passing a background check.

In registering for one of two dating services he used, Farook said he spoke Urdu, though friends said the couple spoke to each other in English. Farook, in a posting on one of the dating services, said he was open to dating a woman of any faith but was looking for “someone who takes her religion very seriously and is always trying to improve her religion.”[/quote](appears he found the "right mate")
Farook grew up in Riverside; his parents were born in Pakistan. His father could be a violent and alcoholic father, capable of lashing out at his wife and children, according to statements his mother, Rafia Farook, made in a series of divorce proceedings beginning in 2006. The father, also named Syed Farook, called his wife names, screamed at his children, hurled home appliances and, at the worst moments, grew so combative that his children had to step between him and his wife, she asserted.

How did this Paki get immigration to US in the first place?
A neighbor, Victor Venegas, said that the elder Farook had worked for him driving trucks until 2003 and would come around looking for money. “He would sometimes come over without calling,” Venegas said, and ask, “ ‘Can I have $10 to buy cigarettes?’ ”
Around Christmas one year, Venegas recalled, the father asked where he could buy a goat; he especially wanted a pregnant animal, saying that goat fetus was a delicacy. Venegas helped him get two. They ate one, and the family kept the other alive in the backyard, along with some chickens, where neighbors heard it bleating.

Keeping a goat in the back yard !!!!
Farook’s father frequently dressed in traditional Pakistani attire, with a white robe and a head wrap, even when he was driving the truck, and his mother usually kept her head covered, neighbors said. But the children dressed in Western clothes. Roseman said that Syed did not talk about his faith or pray openly at school. “He never mentioned his religion,” Roseman said.
{/quote}

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Lalmohan » 04 Dec 2015 19:26

sounds more like standard american psycho with a green flavouring

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby johneeG » 04 Dec 2015 19:33

While, its interesting to go into these analysis, I think there is always a danger of over-estimation of a problem. Some people suggest that jihadi terrorism and islamic extremism is a unique and dangerous threat without any solution. I think jihadhi terrorism is just another regular extremist problem. At a security level, the main idea should be to go after the people who give weapons and money to these terrorists. At social level, extremism has to be tackled for long-term benefit and there should be mechanism so that ideologies don't become regressive or extremist. All extremism can be solved by debate-criticism-reform(evolution)-debate-criticism-reform cycle. Any ideology which stops internal debate and external criticism ends up being stagnating which results in social problems when applied to society at large. So, the main idea should be to open up ideologies to internal debate and external criticism by establishing proper systems in place by the state.

So-called liberals only attack majority religion while giving a free-pass to minority religions. That strengthens the conservatives of the minority religions and weakens the true liberals of these minority religions. Too much of anything results in diminishing returns. And thats exactly what is happening with this wrong method.

There may be many people within Islamic societies who may support modern reforms. Their voice is stifled by the conservatives in islamic society. The state and liberals needs to support them, so they can openly air their views and get the internal debate started. Similarly, external criticism should be allowed by all religions, so they can debate and evolve. Bhaarath used to have this great tradition of organized debate & criticism which allowed Bhaarath to come up philosophy like Vedhantha.
Last edited by johneeG on 04 Dec 2015 19:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Lalmohan » 04 Dec 2015 19:42

the french journalist who was held by daesh for 10 months recently spoke about daesh being quite deranged and that any event in the world can be interpreted to support their belief system in the end of days and the great battle to end the world and how everything is moving in that direction. he is of the view that support for daesh came about because of the huge civilian casualties being caused by the regime in syria but now everyone is stuck between a rock and a hard place and the loonies are in charge of the asylum. daesh only have to recite the hoko to back up their claim (standard operating procedure for past 1000 years)

he believes that a political solution between the regime (assad and the iraqi shias) and the sunnis (aka baath party saddam hardliners) will see stability return quickly and that daesh will evaporate away. (or as i said a few days back, the wizards will change colours and the orcs will be hunted down by the rohirrim)

he made a passing reference to how the west and particularly america are so totally blind to daesh's mindset

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby johneeG » 04 Dec 2015 19:52

Lal Mullah saar,

these jihadhis are all same same only. Just take away their weapons and money to castrate them. Then, open up the internal debate and external criticism. Automatically, it will become normal. Perhaps, it will even come up with great philosophy or innovative science.

But, the question is: who is providing these people with weapons and money? And why?

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby johneeG » 04 Dec 2015 20:13

There has been a simple game going on in malsic society through out history: conservatives support any regime as long as they support conservativeness. Generally, a new regime needs stability and this is the time when the conservatives make deals with the new regime. As the conservatives gain power, they use it to monopolize power and run their own fiefdom. The conservatives realize that when a regime becomes strong and stable, the regime can then turn their screws on conservatives as well. So, it suits these conservatives to not have any stable and strong regime.

And when the conservatives gain social power, they first shut down the internal debate and external criticism by quoting some religious text. Once the internal and external opposition has been silenced or coerced, then they get to consolidate power. And absolute power leads to absolute corruption.

Conservatives and liberals have to act as checks and balances in a society. If either one of them gains total power and shuts the other down, then that society will become one-sided and lead to all kinds of social problems. So, the solution is to restore balance.

But, followers of an ideology tend to have some common ideas(even if some of them are flawed) whether they are conservatives or liberals. Who will point out the flaws in the ideas if both sides(conservatives and liberals) agree to these flawed ideas? This is where external criticism comes in. Internal debate and external criticism together are quite powerful.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby A_Gupta » 06 Dec 2015 03:50

The document at this link is the al Qaeda Recruiting Manual.
"A Course in the Art of Recruiting"
https://archive.org/details/ACourseInTh ... edJuly2010

Analysis by the piskologists would be most appreciated.

PS: After the first course above is done, the next course is this:
THE GLOBAL ISLAMIC RESISTANCE CALL
https://archive.org/details/TheGlobalIs ... stanceCall

Analysis by the piskologists would be most appreciated.

IMO, one of the key points to figure out is how to help people break out of the cycle that are being initiated by the methods in this book.

PS: Some MEMRI backgrounder/analysis of this material:
http://www.memri.org/report/en/print5395.htm

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby ramana » 11 Dec 2015 21:56

The early formulation of how jihadi inner core Islamist regenerate in Islamist society.

shiv wrote:
ramana wrote:
On the Pakistani side, the TTP has a four-way split and considerable leaders pledged their support to the IS. In mid-January 2015, the IS formally announced the leadership team of its Khorasan unit. This borrowed heavily from the split TTP. But, beyond that nothing has happened. Of course, Tahir Yuldashev's IMU also pledged support to IS and moved to the Afghan-Tajikitan borderlands as a result of Zerb-e-Azb operations. However, IMU's support to IS is doubtful at this point.
<snip>
As for the integrated, unified Sunni jihad, I very much doubt such a proposition. These people are too fractious for that. That is an interesting idea though.

:lol:
Just had an "aha" moment reading this

Let us look at the facts
Fact 1: IS is greener (more Islamic) than TTP, which is more Islamic than LeT/JeM, which is more Islamic than the Pakistani army

Fact 2:
    a.Pakistani army have killed tens of thousands of Hindus an Muslims in a genocide in Bangladesh and they have killed shias, Baluchis and Pakhtuns
    b.LeT/JeM are known murderers who take their orders from the Pakistani army
    c.TTP are good and Islamic, but they are variably shaded, They kill everyone including Paki army
    d.IS - These are the best. Currently they are taking orders from Saudia and Turkey

They are all Islamic and all murderers.

We need to recall that it is the "less green" ones who have killed the most Indians. The more green ones are deeper within dar ul Islam and are involved with killing Muslims as well as anyone else. The less green ones seek acceptance as good Muslims because of their propensity to murder non Muslims. But the greener ones tend to be found deep inside dar ul Islam among Muslims. The deep green core Muslims would all be arrested or killed soon if they appeared among non Muslims. But because they are so pious they survive in dar ul Islam and they do their murderous stuff inside Islamic countries.

The role of the less green ones is to appear moderate and secular and survive close to the edges of dar ul Islam or inside dar ul harb. Their role also prepares the ground for the more green ones. The less green ones are always complaining that they are being discriminated against and when they get a chance they will kill non Muslims and create areas of Muslim predominance. Inside those areas of Muslim dominance the more green ones start thriving.

There is a biological model which is an exact analogy of this. Bacteria can come in two flavours. Aerobic bacteria need oxygen to survive. Some anaerobic bacteria (those that cause Gas Gangrene and Tetanus) actually die (or will not grow) in the presence of oxygen. What can happen is that a wound can get infected with aerobic bacteria that cause damage and use up all the oxygen and create the conditions for anaerobic bacteria to grow and cause the toxicity to kill.

The biologic analogy is important because radical Islam incubates within a community of less green "moderate" Islam. Tackling radical Islam alone is utter GIGO and bound to fail. So called "moderate islam" creates the conditions for radical Islam by eliminating and opposing non Muslims based on concession they demand for their religion. Laws that make everyone equal, with no mollycoddling along with laws that disallow violence that is used commonly in Islam are all required to be put in place among the so called "moderates" to check the incubation of radical Islam. ISIS survives because Pakistan and Saudi and Turkey are mollycoddled and allowed to maintain murderous but less green militias.

Is this Islamophobia? Bullshit. It is self preservation


SSridhar wrote:
shiv wrote:The role of the less green ones is to appear moderate and secular and survive close to the edges of dar ul Islam or inside dar ul harb. Their role also prepares the ground for the more green ones. The less green ones are always complaining that they are being discriminated against and when they get a chance they will kill non Muslims and create areas of Muslim predominance. Inside those areas of Muslim dominance the more green ones start thriving.

There is a biological model which is an exact analogy of this. Bacteria can come in two flavours. Aerobic bacteria need oxygen to survive. Some anaerobic bacteria (those that cause Gas Gangrene and Tetanus) actually die (or will not grow) in the presence of oxygen. What can happen is that a wound can get infected with aerobic bacteria that cause damage and use up all the oxygen and create the conditions for anaerobic bacteria to grow and cause the toxicity to kill.

The biologic analogy is important because radical Islam incubates within a community of less green "moderate" Islam. Tackling radical Islam alone is utter GIGO and bound to fail. So called "moderate islam" creates the conditions for radical Islam by eliminating and opposing non Muslims based on concession they demand for their religion. Laws that make everyone equal, with no mollycoddling along with laws that disallow violence that is used commonly in Islam are all required to be put in place among the so called "moderates" to check the incubation of radical Islam. ISIS survives because Pakistan and Saudi and Turkey are mollycoddled and allowed to maintain murderous but less green militias.

Brilliant analysis & analogy.

just one more point, if I may. the least green know that they will be overrun remorselessly by the greenest eventually and yet they are willing to put themselves in harm's way



Aditya_V wrote:To add to what Docji is saying

I have a slightly different take after seeing recent Shiv-Docji theory on Europe. What the Islamists did was send the Sufis and others as "prosecuted Muslims" from evil "Radical" Muslims to Bengal and Kashmir, once the Islamists grew in numbers say 100 years, some forcible conversions plus driving out of Non Muslims made these Muslim lands. It is a 3 step process

1. Prosecuted Moderate and Sufi muslims arrive. Non muslims gave shelter to these Muslim victims of radical muslims and live peacefully. The build up numbers over 3 generations

2. Radicalization happens it becomes Muslims VS Non Muslims.

3. The Neighbouring Radical Muslims and now local muslims team up against the Non Muslims

4. Some members of the Non muslims flee, some non muslims are killed, some non convert with the result there are no non muslims in the land.

This 4 step process seems to have repeated a 100 times over the last 1000 years from what is West Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kashmir and Now Assam, WB.

As docji says it is the Less green ones who act as Missionary types moving to new areas.



ramana wrote:Shiv, Mulling over, your theory is more correct. Its the non-radical Muslim that need to be tamed to prevent most green jihadis in their midst.


So far I have been advocating that the moderates have to be forced to expel the jihadis among them. Sort of aborting the green yolk.

What your theory says is a new yolk/inner core will be created again from among the moderates. The more radical among the moderates will coalesce to form a new jihadi core.

Its a self regenerating jihadi mechanism.
Again a biological analogy.
So how to spread this understanding?


First diagram shows the traditional three circle diagram of Muslim World citizens, Assimilated Muslims, inner core Islamists.
Second diagram without the inner core Islamists,
third diagram with droplets from assimilated Muslims forming a new inner core.

Explains the Mughal dynasty from Akbar thru Jahangir thru Shah Jahan to Aurangzeb!!!


Narender Luther in his book "Hyderabad" wonders on how a London educated well off Muslim lawyer upon return soon starts wearing fez and grows a beard.


We have an example of a world citizen/assimilated Muslim turning core Islamist in just a decade.


And then we have the biggest example of pork eating, whiskey swilling Jinnah!!!!

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby panduranghari » 13 Dec 2015 23:18

From STFU thread


In slide no 19. from the first slide show, you have written - Re-establish the primacy of purer islam. Go back to the the period of the ' 4 pious caliphs' when islam was monolithic and driven by arabs. This is arabism heavy, while arab nationalism was arab lite.

Does the above statement mean - the 7 countries that Gen. Wesley Clark mentioned in the levant thread are the elements where arab nationalism was thriving?

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby ramana » 14 Dec 2015 04:32

Yes Clark's seven countries were Arab Nationalists due to exposure to modernism.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Haresh » 15 Dec 2015 17:01

"Company selling 'fake hymens' to Muslim women in Germany - which burst with fake blood to trick husbands into thinking they are virgins - sees sales surge as migrant influx spikes"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pikes.html
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby SSridhar » 15 Dec 2015 17:15

ramana wrote:And then we have the biggest example of pork eating, whiskey swilling Jinnah!!!!

Yes, paradoxically. But he was the lightest green (difficult to even classify him as a green for he did not know the kalima, diddn't know how to offer a dua, never prayed, opposed caliphate, forgot Ramadan fasting, loved dogs etc) and yet invoked Islamist symbolism. Had he not been consumed by TB & lung cancer, he would have been by the Ahrar perhaps.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby SBajwa » 15 Dec 2015 19:57

by Agnimitra
This is also why during the freedom struggle, an Islamic scholar and leader (I forget his name) said of Gandhi ji - he is a saintly kind of man, but by the Qur'an and Hadith I have to say that he is still lower than a Muslim criminal and rapist because he has not taken the shahadah (oath of allegiance to Allah and Muhammad).\


That was maulana Shaukat Ali (From the Arun Shourie book "The world of Fatwas") one of the Ali brothers who were with Mohandas Gandhi during the Khilafat movement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khilafat_Movement

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby ramana » 04 Mar 2016 00:29

shiv and SS, I am working on a graph of the ummah nations.
the +ve x-axis is strong/stable state and -ve axis is weak/unstable state.
The +ve Y axis is Shia state and -ve axis is Sunni.

So I want to map most of the ~ 70 Islamic countries on this map and see what pops up.

One can add geographic location also.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby SSridhar » 04 Mar 2016 10:21

ramana, that is interesting. But, there are some countries like Saudi Arabia (at least in my reckoning) that may 'appear strong and stable', but are actually rotten to the core internally. A blow at the right place would shatter them. The trouble in many Islamic countries is that Islamists are waiting for an opportune moment. Their tribe has increased enormously and dangerously especially after the Al Qaeda phenomenon and its successor, Daesh. IMO, a theocratic country, especially of the Islamic variety, is already weak and unstable, whether it is Iran or Qatar.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby ramana » 04 Mar 2016 10:31

Actually I would have rated them as Sunni and unstable for the same reasons. Morocco would be Sunni and stable.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Prem » 04 Mar 2016 22:04

Sunni=Socially Undesired Nobba Nobed Inbreds.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Lilo » 27 Mar 2016 10:08

X-posted from GDF
Islam has no future.
When the post oil economy rolls into middleeast(either due to oil drained Arabia or oil free world) , only saudia will manage to subsist on its Haj based tourist bloodsucking.
UAE will collapse (Dubai cannot sustain w/o oil money of abudabhi which would have dried up).

Only america has the strategic inclination to financially prop up an crumbling islamic economy - which it cannot do wellenough as most will be spent in barely propping the ME dictators (as the ME population would have ballooned to the levels that they will be importing food grains by the shiploads).Nothing much will be left to glorify Islam over other religions in the rest of the world as Saudia's petrodollars used to do few decades back.

In the meantime dharmics should keep growing their economy,keep improving their security apparatus , keep our western neighbours internally busy.
Form more and varied national and international networks Sangh pasand but not Sangh affiliated. Control the national economy(reduce the black portion)and orient it for dharmic use,restrict the money to internal Islamic funding and organising (relentlessly target smuggling,drugs,trafficking and black money and hawala and benamis,mafia,gangs).Curtail their organization.
And most importantly reverse the last 60 years of sikular media propaganda for bringing dharmics back to their element through a saffronised media .
All is possible with just two more terms of Congress mukt rule of modi or some other karmayogi .

The the potency of malsi qaum is a joke when they are hailing gaandus like owaisis as their leaders and obviously with their ghetto minds cannot find better leaders.Useless leaders powerless qaum.Ghar wapsi to dharma is the only logical outcome of a deflated ideology.

Islamic ideology will wither away once the financial chokehold and the ideological chokehold are applied by dharmics.
All those fearing for loss of more territory will be surprised when India accepts POK from pakis.

Challenge is the ej threat and USA's support for it as a tool of subversion - becoming immune to massa's ideological invasion is an imperative .

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby ramana » 27 Mar 2016 10:34

Very correct identifying real threat. Same time Trump election might reduce EJs.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Lilo » 28 Mar 2016 18:09

X-post

abhischekcc wrote:To understand what the impact of the end of oil money will have on the world, we should first look at the impact currently of oil money, and then try to imagine a world without such cash flows. In no particular order, this is where oil money flows:
1. First and foremost, Saudi royal family uses oil money to buy off and placate internal rivalries, both in the government and within the tribes of that country. Lose of oil money will mean internal rivalries will intensify, destabilizing an already unstable regime and society. This instability will attract a whole bunch of jihadis from across the world to bring the jihad back to KSA. (Silver lining).

2. Second, the money is used to pacify an increasingly restive population. Saudi people do not have any real skills to maintain their current lifestyles. Once oil money is gone, the mass of unemployed youth (and there is a serious male overpopulation among the youth in ME) will find it impossible to regain their lifestyles. An important point to keep in mind is a restive young male population is always associated with revolution. The possibility of internal civil war in KSA is very real.
These two are the most important factors. Others are:

3. Whatever surplus money Saudi has is (or used to be) invested in the US stock market. Once they lose the surplus, US stock market will lose the most important external source of funding. At the time of 9/11, KSA had $700 billion in the US stock market, and KSA royals are the only family other that US presidents' that is protected in the US by US secret service. One of the factors behind US stock market weakness is the weakness in oil prices. IIRC, KSA had a $98 billion deficit this year.

4. KSA buys influence in the western countries by buying weapons. What happens is this: their ability to make large purchases means western officials (both civilian and military) are always falling over each other to curry favour with KSA. Because if an officer makes one large deal with KSA means that he is set for life. This is the reason why you hear stories of KSA buying western weapon systems that they do not have the ability to use. By holding out the promise to buy large amounts of weapons, they ensure that western defence officials will always try to keep in their good side. Lose of oil money will mean this promise cannot be made, hence western defence will no longer provide a shield.

5. Money that non-arab muslims earn in the arab countries has given them a lot of purchasing power in their home countries, including India. This has enabled muslim to muscle in on properties from non-muslims. This will stop and possibly reverse, because lose of oil money means expats will be thrown out the arab countries (to provide jobs for the locals), and the returning expats will have to find jobs in India or liquidate their assets.

6. And lastly. Oil money funds terror. Lose of oil money will not end terror, because their are several millions crazy muslims, trained and indoctrinated for nothing except war. Where will they go? Some of them will become mercenaries, and justify their pillaging in the name of Islam. Some of them will return to KSA, etc and bring jihad home. Some of them will setup localised dictatorships. This will ensure the collapse of every state (muslim or non muslim) between the western border of Iran till Atlantic ocean. Also AfPak. Meaning Iran has the potential to become the last muslim state standing if they find a way to survive low oil prices.

Among other muslim countries:
1. In UAE, only Abu Dhabi has the wherewithal to survive, because its money comes largely from natural gas (which is a growing market) and not from oil.
2. All other muslim oil countries are likely to collapse or at least lose influence (domestically and in foreign).

Among non-Muslim countries:
1. The recent shenanigans of muslims in Europe means the rise of fascism is now a real possibility.
2. Indian demographics are against Hindus/Sikhs/etc. We need to arm up. The only silver lining (for now) is that muslims are also mostly without weapons.
3. America? With or without Trump - that is the question. But their economy is the biggest weakness. They have reasons to both support and oppose muslim countries. Which way they will go depends on whether Trump wins or not. (I will welcome Trump and her husband to occupy the white house though :mrgreen: )

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby RajeshA » 13 May 2016 13:47

Nations have many institutions to advance its interests - Diplomatic Corps, Army, Navy, Air Force, Businessmen, etc.

So too does Islam.

Depending on nature of challenger to Islam, Islam deploys different strategies:

1) Sympathetic law-and-order force of Kafirs: This could be in some towns or West-Bank or in Kashmir, Islam always sends its children out to do the protesting and stone throwing. Islamics know that either the Kafir law & order force would hesitate to do anything against the children, and if they do, it would make great propaganda.

2) Bad image among the Kafirs: Then it is mostly well-dressed good-looking young Muslim girls who take the stage. Since the ire of Kafir society is mostly directed at the Muslim men, it is thought prudent to show Muslim girls doing the PR espousing the interests of Muslims, and of course both sexes of the Kafirs feel an affinity to 'girls'.

Here are some examples:

  • For example, in any town-hall-type meetings on Islam where there is a panel of experts criticizing Islam, there will always be Muslim girls who would stand up and talk in favor of Islam and whine about Islamophobia. One sees such scenes often in BBC shows also.



  • Then there was the #MyJihad Campaign

    Image

  • Then there was the video against Donald Trump's proposed temporary ban on Muslim immigration and visas into USA. #AskAMuslimGirl


3) Aftermath of an Jihadi Attack: Whenever there is a Benghazi or Muhammad Cartoon attacks, etc., one would see a host of "Moderate Muslims" parachuting into TV studios, showing themselves as very "Moderate", partly condemning the attacks but at the same time warning Kafir society against Islamophobia and about resolving underlying issues of poverty, unemployment, among Muslim youth. Basically they come to say, either gimme more cake which I can share with "misguided" Islamics or there will be more attacks. This is a soft-blackmail. These "Moderates" are there to give hope to the Kafir, that there is a constituency among the Muslims willing to criticize the radicals and fight against it, and that all this "moderates" constituency needs is some more "resources" to sway the vast majority of Muslims to the "peaceful" way of coexistence, and that this is the better, more cost-effective and less bloody way to solve the problem. That is the carrot of "hope and wisdom" these Moderates are supposed to dangle in front of the Kafirs and Kafirs easily fall for it.

4) Constant Propaganda: Otherwise, when nothing is going on, there is a constant "political correctness" propaganda from Dhimmi surrogates of Islamics. These may be from Greens, Left-Liberals, Progressives, Seculars, Marxists, or some other group, but it is always there telling others not to ruffle feathers and to always remain politically correct.

The point is that Islam has now instrumentalized their children, their chics, their "moderates" and their Dhimmis. These are mere PR tools. Sufis were already a tool long time ago, useful for infiltration and building beachheads.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby RajeshA » 22 May 2016 02:34

I have seen mainstream so-called "Moderate" Muslims when talking with non-Muslims, trying to hector the other, that the

- other is Islamobhobic,
- whether other is afraid of Muslims like him

The right way to respond to that is that

- one is not afraid of individual Muslims

- one is concerned about the vitriolic Kufrophobia in Islam
- one is concerned that Islam does not allow integration of Muslims into other cultures, which includes appreciation and pride in other cultures
- one is concerned that Islam is an expansionary ideology
- one is concerned that Islam's sense of ethics is in conflict with with the ethics of other societies, in particular the prescribed and empiric treatment of non-Muslims and women

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby RajeshA » 01 Jun 2016 12:06

Crossposting from "Islamism & Islamophobia Abroad - News & Analysis (9-8-2014)" Thread

Kufrophobia

Islamophobia is an accusation used by Muslims and Left-Liberals used at the slightest of criticisms. However nobody really speaks of Kufrophobia among Muslims, which is Islam's intrinsic hatred for non-Muslims, which often expresses itself violently. Why is that?

It is important that the word "Kufrophobia" be popularized.

The word "Kufrophobia" should be used, because:

- the word Kufr comes from Islam itself, and thus the audience is forced to look at what Islam prescribes for Kufr, and not at some Left-Liberal propaganda about how nice Muslims are towards non-Muslims.

- the word "Kufrophobia" is partly ancient Greek "phobos", and thus it is a word which has been raised to the same "intellectual" level of Left-Liberal verbiage.

- it needs to be pointed out that Kufrophobia is mostly intrinsic and violent whereas Islamophobia is mostly reactive and peaceful.


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