Understanding Islamic Society

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KJo
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by KJo »

ramana wrote:What is Imam Bhukari fulminating about when his flock is being led away! Demanding votes for his patron Italian Sonia Gandhi?
In India, Christians are more dangerous than Muslims. They have to be brought back to civilized dharmic fold from thei barbaric ways.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

ramana wrote:Wahab-> Deoband-> Pakistan> Taliban & Al Qeeda->Jihad

The Arabs are mere tools in this Deobandi jihad to control Islam.

RajeshA & RamaY,

Just like Urdu, Deobandi Islam is blowback to the Sunni world.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

Agnimitra,

Leslie Hazelton's bookAfter the Prophet pdf about the Shia-Sunni split.

Recommended by R Narayanan.

Agnimitra this is nice but think about my post above this.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Agnimitra »

ramana wrote:Just like Urdu, Deobandi Islam is blowback to the Sunni world.
ramana ji, I don't understand the analogy - how is Urdu blowback?
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Agnimitra »

Agnimitra wrote:
ramana wrote:Just like Urdu, Deobandi Islam is blowback to the Sunni world.
ramana ji, I don't understand the analogy - how is Urdu blowback?
Never mind, got it.
ramana
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

8)

I figured once give time you will get it.

One book review from the Book Review thread by Ronyji:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1666708

God's Terrorists: The Wahhabi Cult and the Hidden Roots of Modern Jihad by Charles Allen
An important study of the little-known history of the Wahhabi, a fundamentalist Islamic tribe whose teachings influence today's extreme Islamic terrorists, including the Taliban and Osama bin Laden.

In today's post-9/11 world, the everyday news shows us images of fanatic fighters and suicide bombers willing to die in holy war, martyrs for jihad. But what are the roots of this militant fundamentalism in the Muslim world? In this insightful and wide-ranging history, Charles Allen finds an answer in the eighteenth-century reform movement of Muhammed ibn Abd al-Wahhab and his followers--the Wahhabi--who sought the restoration of Islamic purity and declared violent jihad on all who opposed them, Moslems and pagans alike.

As the Wahhabi teaching spread in the nineteenth century, first, to the Arabian peninsula, and then, to the region around the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, their followers brought with them a vicious brand of political ideology and militant conflict. The Wahhabi deeply influenced the rulers of modern Saudi Arabia and their establishment of a strict Islamic code. A more militant expression of Wahhabism took root in the mountains of Afghanistan and Pakistan, where fierce tribes have waged holy war for almost two hundred years. The ranks of the Taliban and al-Qaeda today are filled with young men who were taught the Wahhabi theology of Islamic purity while rifles were pressed into their hands for the sake of jihad.

God's Terrorists sheds shocking light on the historical roots of modern terrorism and shows how this dangerous theology lives on today.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

In mid 80s one Iranain (family high up in the shah's time) came with folded hands and apologised for nadir Shah's sack of Delhi.
He called Khomeini as Hindusthan's revenge.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by RoyG »

The problem is Shia's are enemies of dharma, just like Sunnis. They are more "open minded" than their sunni counterparts however they still do adhere to the core tenets of Islam. I do not believe Pakistan will remain as is forever. A break-up of the state will happen and the Iranians will move in, especially in Balochistan. The Shia's will be at our doorstep then. We have to make sure that they remain occupied with the Sunnis. This will take the pressure off of us.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

Islamic Society is like a wild jungle with predators and prey. The prey have subsumed all noble humane instincts to survive to live another day. The predators are the ruling elite: rulers, mullahs etc and the prey are the common folks who can't escape the predators clutches. The worst part is Anglo-Saxon West ensures the predators rule over the prey and talk about Westphalian nation state laws that prevent them from acting for humanity.

The West has failed Jesus.

The consequence is they will become prey eventually.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

X-post...
Paul wrote:Foggy bottom on the side of the Islamists versus the DOD (Army) supporting the Mamelukes who are on the backfoot throughout the ME. Interestingly, the Wahabis who are the original Islamists are supporting the mamelukes against the Islamists in Egypt and Pakistan but are for the Islamists (ISIS) in Iraq as the Mamelukes there (Baathists) have been put of business by Paul Bremmer.

To simplify - I submit there are two parties struggling for supremacy in the Sunni world - Egypt, Turkey, Iraq and Pakistan. The Mamelukes (Army) and the Islamists (Erdogan/ISIS/MB/TTP).

Prize is the crown of Kabila sardar in these regions. Shia-Sunni dispute is a separate subject, hence Syria does not count. Wahabis will collaborate with Islamists against Shias if working with Mamelukes is not an option like Syris/Iraq.

Will make a good flowchart.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Paul »

Thanks for posting here Ramana. Hope it makes sense. Please let me know your thoughts on this.

This is a pattern recognition exercise.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

Paul, SD supports Islamists because the other alternative in West Asia is Arab Nationalists.

The AN will overthrow existing sheikdoms and bring in elected rulers.
The next step will be Palestine statedom.


Islamists on other hand will export jihad to lands where they could get exhausted and give space to unkil.

In your model Mamelukes are Arab Nationalists.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

Bji and Agnimitra, The Prophet's rule about four witnesses to a rape, is it an Islamic version of Roman law of fractional proof to get around the possibility of lying by witnesses? Off course it got perverted later to demand four people need to witness the crime for a conviction.

If one witness only is required its possible to has him either telling truth or lying. Now bring in four witnesses it adds more numbers.
However due to the a laws of probability, even four one-halfs dont make a whole!!!


Am can you look at Roman law of evidence and trace the orogons of Big Mo's requirement for four witnesses?
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Paul »

Ramana, I refer to nationalists as the Iraqi Baathists only and possibly the Turkish army in its present avatar as they were truely secular and even anti Islamist. Turkish army is turning Islamist too. Egyptian Army went Islamist during Sadat's time when he started getting Green certificate from MB to legitimize his rule. Mubarak was no different. Hence I would not prefer to them as nationalist (they along with Pakistani army are present day mamelukes.....descendents of Baybars who took up the sword to defend's Islam's H&D from the crusaders). Hope you see the distinction.


Secondly, I believe there is a triangle in Islam - Kabila Sardar , The army , and the Ulema ( Islamists). Usually the Ulema get together with the army to subvert the Sardar as will be the case in Pakistan, and the way it happened in Iran.

In Mughal India, the Sardar outflanked this potential alliance by bringing in the Rajputs and by Aurangzeb's time the Ulema had coopted the Army to edge out the Rajputs.

In SA, the Saudis have co-opted the wahabi ulema through a dyanastic alliance with Ibn Wahab's tribe and have managed to get the greenest of green certificate from them .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Abd_al-Wahhab
Muhammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab (Arabic: محمد بن عبد الوهاب‎; 1703 – 22 June 1792)[3] was an Arabian Islamic Salafi[citation needed] scholar and founder of the Islamic movement, or "mission" of "Wahhabism".[4] His pact with Muhammad bin Saud helped to establish the first Saudi state[5] and began a dynastic alliance and power-sharing arrangement between their families which continues to the present day in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.[6] The descendants of Ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab, the Al ash-Sheikh, have historically led the ulama in the Saudi state,[7] dominating the state's clerical institutions.[8]
If ISIS or any other greener group comes to SA, Saudis will not have this dynastic alliance with them and hence are like ripe lamb for the slaughter.

In Pakistan, the Pakistan army 1 is propping up the JUD/LET as the ulema and gets the green certificate from them, but the TTP/LEJ are upsetting the equation as JUD is not overlty anti Shia. You have to be anti shia to be greenest green, Ottomans went to war with the safavids to get this qualify or the certificate and the saudis are doing the same now.

Thus the TTP/LEJ has the snob value will always be looked up as greenest green in the eyes of the common abdul. Once the TTP has full control over the Ulema, the army 1 loses the greenest green certificate and the nukes pass to the hands of the Army 2 (as they will be the ones to get greenest green certificate from the new Ulema).

Turkey is behind the curve and we have to see how the Ulema shapes up in the time to come. The change here will probably come from the army.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by KJo »

My Muslim friends on FB are bombarding FB with videos and pictures of poor poor Muslim kids being hurt by evil evil Yahudis. :((
Of course, when their Muslim "brothers" kill Hindus or Christians, they pretend not know and look the other way. If you ask them about it, they just say those people are not Muslims. Case closed as far as they are concerned. H&D of Islam protected.
Hard to feel any kind of sympathy for such people. :roll:

Green on Green violence in Iraq etc is the best thing for the rest of the world. Get them to fight among themselves will hopefully reduce their ever increasing numbers.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by JE Menon »

^^post a couple of links boss...
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Agnimitra »

ramana wrote:Bji and Agnimitra, The Prophet's rule about four witnesses to a rape, is it an Islamic version of Roman law of fractional proof to get around the possibility of lying by witnesses? Off course it got perverted later to demand four people need to witness the crime for a conviction.

If one witness only is required its possible to has him either telling truth or lying. Now bring in four witnesses it adds more numbers.
However due to the a laws of probability, even four one-halfs dont make a whole!!!

Am can you look at Roman law of evidence and trace the orogons of Big Mo's requirement for four witnesses?
ramana ji, my impression is that, while the Prophet Muhammad did experiment with what were at that time more "liberal" criteria for proof, he ultimately defaulted to the legal modes of the time (which were mainly Roman in that area). BUT, while the standards and structure were similar to Roman law, the "logic" or psychological underpinnings were of tribal Arab notions of what constitutes crime - which are based on tribal authority and threats to that (somewhat insecure) authority.

For instance, there is a hadith by Abu Dawood that the Prophet awarded capital punishment to a man on charges of rape, where there was only one witness - and that, too, a woman. As it turned out, the lady had identified the wrong man. So according to many, in circumstances of normalcy, this hadith only serves to turn the "logic" of fiqh around and is taken as proof that female witness is not as reliable as male witness. This discrimination was already codified in Roman law, which also considered the witness of people with the wrong religious affiliation, less educated people, people of disrepute, etc to have lesser or no value than a "sajjana" in good standing. So clearly, Islamic law adopts many of the modes of contemporary Roman law and social attitudes. In fact, there are indications that Muhammad tried to tone down some of the elitist discrimination inherent in archaic Roman law, and make it more egalitarian, with some of the close sahabah setting an example or two to impress all of creation. But as we shall see, in sub-normal circumstances there is another more significant angle to the above hadith case - one of exerting authority while fearing challenge, and using any number of witnesses as sufficient to make a show of power.

In a condition of normalcy, it is noteworthy that the "4 witness" requirement only applies to the "hadd" (maximum limit) punishment, i.e., death. Where 4 witnesses are not available, lesser evidence can have the accused rapist tried and sentenced to "ta'azeer" punishments, which can range from a fine, to flogging and even more sadistic treatment like amputation or crucifixion. IOW, it falls into the same category as thievery or other acts of force, provided some evidence exists. Thus, the hudood and the ta'azeeraat are two classes of crime and punishment.

But even here, the notion of "force" is based on Arab tribal ideas or at least Muhammedan ideas. The really severe punishments are reserved for potential political rivals or alternate power centers who may decide to make a mockery of the law and order under the Caliph's government. This is when a crime is committed, both, as a result of possessing overwhelming power and when it is done in full public view without any attempt to conceal the use of force - and the perpetrator is nabbed before he makes any sort of confession of guilt. This is pure, wanton, arrogant "hirabah", and such a criminal is a muhaarib - one who makes war on Allah (and his representative on Earth). This is the severest case. The rape of a woman in full public view would qualify in this category, and that's where the "4 witnesses" fall into the scheme of things - even if the rapist muhaarib brags about his act to others, according to some. Such a blatant public rape is a show of power and a challenge to the Caliph's monopoly on violence and women, according to the Islamic cultural view, and so is punishable by death.

Apart from the muhaarib, all other crime is relatively petty. Normally rape is NOT treated as hirabah, though some Islamic women's activists like to take those cases out of context and argue that it should be treated as such in all cases, 4 witnesses or not. There are degrees in the severity of crime - and these degrees are based not on the consequences of premeditated actions, but on the attitude in doing so w.r.t. the H&D of the "security-seeking state" (to use UnFair's term) of the Caliph. Stealing with stealth is called sirqah, daylight robbery with much less stealth and much more exhibition of power is called nahab, and neither of these is necessarily hirabah in normal circumstances. Most such acts are supposed to be precluded by Islamic social customs that are supposed to be enforced, such as segregation of the sexes, a woman not displaying herself among strangers and non-mahram males, etc. Breach of these social rules invites rape, according to this mentality, and bears partial responsibility for the rape. The evidentiary criteria for rape is about the same as for zina (adultery), for rape is called zina bil jabr (coercive zina). Nevertheless, there are still punishments for rape as an act of momentary loss of moral bearings by the perp. But in most cases, without the act threatening the Caliphate's dispensation, most rapists would get off relatively lightly without 4 witnesses. The argument is advanced that if the perp is an influential man, then the mere fact of a trial would soil his H&D in society, thus serving him right and humiliating him. It all depends on where the Islamic government senses threat - in Iran/Saudi, even street drug peddling is categorized as hirabah and punishable by swift death sentence (because in Iran it is common knowledge that the Paki smuggler works for the Sunni axis to hollow out their society from within via drug peddling; and in Saudi they think the same about the Shi'a axis). But if even the government doesn't feel threatened, or if the rape is committed by a mahram male, then perhaps it is best for all the pious to be satisfied that the needle of suspicion has tainted the accused's reputation, and to patiently wait for true justice to be served on the day of Qayamat.

OARN, "hirabah" is from the same root as "harb", as in dar-ul-harb. Thus, only in those kuffaar societies where the government or social discourse is weak, the pious are encouraged to commit criminal acts of hirabah to flout the law of that land and make a mockery of it (while kuffaar societies that are more redneck about strangers are not classified as dar-ul-harb). The more blatant the flouting of law and order or their social sensibilities, the better it is - as only that qualifies as true hirabah. This is useful to understand what sometimes seems like "self-exposing" behaviour of the momineen living in oil droplets suspended in "liberal" kuffaar societies.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

Thanks for the exposition on Islamic law.
Now to my real question. If Mo had to rely on Roman law to get his wife off suspicion by Ali, then how divine is the Koran and the Hadits.

And why dont willing or conniving tools like Hazelton etc point out the Egypto-Greco-Roman origins of Islamic hadits.
Where does Hammurabbi fit in all this? After all they were the big cheese for centuries in the region.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Agnimitra »

ramana wrote:And why dont willing or conniving tools like Hazelton etc point out the Egypto-Greco-Roman origins of Islamic hadits.
Where does Hammurabbi fit in all this? After all they were the big cheese for centuries in the region.
Islamic sources are themselves not embarrassed to admit that Islam picks up on several older traditions of religion, law, etc. But they claim that those were improved upon, their faulty parts abrogated. The Qur'an itself says so in Surah 2. Even the veil is suposedly taken from the "aristocratic" customs of certain nearby societies, or so it is claimed.
ramana wrote:If Mo had to rely on Roman law to get his wife off suspicion by Ali, then how divine is the Koran and the Hadits.
The explanation would be that every circumstance in Prophet Muhammad's "leela" on Earth was preordained in order to occasion divine revelation or words of prophetic wisdom. In this case it was to bring out the wisdom of certain laws and their applicability.

Also note that the notion I mentioned in the previous post - that if an "influential male" is even tried and absolved for lack of evidence, his H&D takes a hit and so he supposedly pays for even putting himself in that situation of being alone with the non-mahram woman. Ali's case with Hazrat Ayesha would fit the bill, at last according to his detractors.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

Do those jihadis get raisins if they get contaminate in any way? Reason is the 9/11 hijackers resorted to some unusual practises prior to their end run.

Suppose invading jihadis get hit with forbidden material and die. Do they get the promised raisins?

I have lard as an example material.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Mihaylo »

ramana wrote:Do those jihadis get raisins if they get contaminate in any way? Reason is the 9/11 hijackers resorted to some unusual practises prior to their end run.

Suppose invading jihadis get hit with forbidden material and die. Do they get the promised raisins?

I have lard as an example material.

I think if their face is burnt they don't get raisins or something to that effect. Somebody in the know told me that he faces of all the 26/11 'mischief makers' were deliberately burnt.

-M
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by member_28638 »

Adityanath again: Blames Muslims for riots in UP

Express News Service

August 31, 2014

BJP MP Yogi Adityanath has intensified his attack on Muslims, blaming the community for all the riots that have taken place in Uttar Pradesh, where his party is gearing up for bypolls in 11 seats.

Adityanath, who is among the three party leaders entrusted with leading the BJP campaign for the upcoming bypolls in Uttar Pradesh, said on Aap Ki Adalat programme on India TV that there are three categories of places where communal riots occur.

In places where there are 10 to 20 per cent minorities, stray communal incidents take place. Where there are 20 to 35 per cent of them, serious communal riots take place and where they are more than 35 per cent, there is no place for non-Muslims,” he said.

Justifying his provocative speeches in the past, in which he said if a Hindu is killed 10 Muslims will be killed in retaliation, the Gorakhpur MP said, “Whatever I had then said was conditional. If the other is a danav (devil), not a manav (human), then one has to reply. If I have a mala (rosary) in one hand, I also carry a bhala (javelin) in the other. As a sanyasi, I can also punish the evil elements.”

The BJP MP has been under attack after two CDs recently surfaced in which he is shown making inflammatory speeches. “If you (minorities) kill one of us, do not expect that you will remain safe. If the other side doesn’t stay in peace, we’ll teach them how to stay in peace in the language they understand,” he said.

His party leaders refused to comment on the remarks. One BJP leader, however, said Adityanath’s comments would “embarrass” the party leaders. “One has to draw a line somewhere,” he said.

Interestingly, Adityanath, who has been vocal on the party’s campaign against “love jihad”, attributed the origin of the term to Communist veteran and former Kerala CM V S Achuthanandan. “Everyone knows that love jihad is a part of the strategy to turn India into a Muslim country,” he said.

Adityanath asked if any Muslim priest can celebrate Diwali or Holi. “If you want to live here, you will have to respect Indian culture and traditions. You cannot have your body here but mind in Pakistan.”
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by KJo »

Adityanath is right. He may sound extreme, but we need some people like him to strike fear in the hearts of those who follow the Peaceful religion. That is the only they stay in control. If Hindus GUBO and play nice, they will declare Jihad.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by KJo »

I think Modi should have the Army cremate the dead Pakis and maybe even have a poojari chant Hindu prayers as a form of shuddhi.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Agnimitra »

Documentary film: The Bazaar of the Sexes

About different forms of male and female sexual "rights" in Islamic culture
Language: Farsi, with English subtitles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-6yEfmD5yY

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

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Saudis risk new Muslim division with proposal to move Mohamed’s tomb


One of Islam’s most revered holy sites – the tomb of the Prophet Mohamed – could be destroyed and his body removed to an anonymous grave under plans which threaten to spark discord across the Muslim world.

The controversial proposals are part of a consultation document by a leading Saudi academic which has been circulated among the supervisors of al-Masjid al-Nabawi mosque in Medina, where the remains of the Prophet are housed under the Green Dome, visited by millions of pilgrims and venerated as Islam’s second-holiest site. The formal custodian of the mosque is Saudi Arabia’s ageing monarch King Abdullah.

The plans, brought to light by another Saudi academic who has exposed and criticised the destruction of holy places and artefacts in Mecca – the holiest site in the Muslim world – call for the destruction of chambers around the Prophet’s grave which are particularly venerated by Shia Muslims.

The 61-page document also calls for the removal of Mohamed’s remains to the nearby al-Baqi cemetery, where they would be interred anonymously.

There is no suggestion that any decision has been taken to act upon the plans. The Saudi government has in the past insisted that it treats any changes to Islam’s holiest sites with “the utmost seriousness”.


But such is the importance of the mosque to both Sunni and Shia Muslims that Dr Irfan al-Alawi warned that any attempt to carry out the work could spark unrest. It also runs the risk of inflaming sectarian tensions between the two branches of Islam, already running perilously high due to the conflicts in Syria and Iraq.

Hardline Saudi clerics have long preached that the country’s strict Wahhabi interpretation of Islam – an offshoot of the Sunni tradition – prohibits the worship of any object or “saint”, a practice considered “shirq” or idolatrous.

Dr Alawi, director of the Islamic Heritage Research Foundation, told The Independent: “People visit the chambers, which are the rooms where the Prophet’s family lived, and turn towards the burial chamber to pray.

“Now they want to prevent pilgrims from attending and venerating the tomb because they believe this is shirq, or idolatry. But the only way they can stop people visiting the Prophet is to get him out and into the cemetery.”

For centuries Muslim pilgrims have made their way to Mecca in order to visit the Kaaba – a black granite cubed building said to be built by Abraham, around which al-Masjid al-Haram, or the Grand Mosque, is built, and towards which every Muslim faces when they pray.

This pilgrimage, or hajj, is a religious duty that has to be carried out at least once in a lifetime.

Many go on to make their way to the nearby city of Medina to pay their respects at the Prophet’s tomb.

Muslims waiting to pray at the tomb of the Prophet at al-Masjid al-Nabawi in Medina Muslims waiting to pray at the tomb of the Prophet at al-Masjid al-Nabawi in Medina (Reuters)

Al-Nabawi mosque around the tomb has been expanded by generations of Arabian rulers, particularly the Ottomans. It includes hand-painted calligraphy documenting details of the Prophet’s life and his family. Dr Alawi said the plans also call for these to be destroyed as well as the Green Dome which covers the Prophet’s tomb.

The Prophet is venerated by both branches of Islam, Sunni and Shia. The strict Wahhabi sect is a branch of the Sunni faith, however, and removing the Prophet could further inflame tensions between the two groups .

The current crisis in Iraq has been blamed on the Shia former Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki’s sectarianism, which alienated the Sunni, leading to the uprising. Isis, also known as Islamic State, which holds swathes of Iraq and Syria, and which murdered the American journalist James Foley, is a Sunni organisation.

Mainstream Sunni Muslims would be just as aghast at any desecration of the tomb as the Shia, Dr Alawi said.

The Independent has previously revealed how the multibillion-pound expansion of the Grand Mosque has, according to the Washington-based Gulf Institute, led to the destruction of up to 95 per cent of Mecca’s millennium-old buildings. They have been replaced with luxury hotels, apartments and shopping malls.

King Abdullah has appointed the prominent Wahhabi cleric and imam of the Grand Mosque, Abdul Rahman al-Sudais, to oversee the expansion project – necessary to cope with the huge number of pilgrims who now visit each year.

Dr Alawi says the consultation document for the al-Nabawi mosque in Medina, by the leading Saudi academic Dr Ali bin Abdulaziz al-Shabal of Imam Muhammad ibn Saud Islamic University in Riyadh, has been circulated to the Committee of the Presidency of the Two Mosques.

Several pages of the consultation document have just been published in the presidency’s journal. They call for the destruction of the rooms surrounding the tomb – used by the Prophet’s wives and daughters, and venerated by the Shia because of their association with his youngest daughter, Fatima.

The document also calls for the Green Dome, which covers the tomb and these living quarters, to be removed, and the ultimate removal of the Prophet’s body to a nearby cemetery.

The al-Baqi cemetery already contains the bodies of many of the Prophet’s family, including his father who was removed there in the 1970s, Dr Alawi said. In 1924 all the grave markers were removed, so pilgrims would not know who was buried there, and so be unable to pray to them.

“The Prophet would be anonymous,” Dr Alawi added. “Everything around the Prophet’s mosque has already been destroyed. It is surrounded by bulldozers. Once they’ve removed everything they can move towards the mosque. The imam is likely to say there is a need to expand the mosque and do it that way, while the world’s eyes are on Iraq and Syria. The Prophet Mohamed’s grave is venerated by the mainstream Sunni, who would never do it. It is just as important for the Shia too, who venerate the Prophet’s daughter, Fatima.

“I’m sure there will be shock across the Muslim world at these revelations. It will cause outrage.”

The Independent was unable to contact the Saudi Arabian embassy, but it said in a statement last year: “The development of the Holy Mosque of Makkah al-Mukarramah [Mecca] is an extremely important subject and one which the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, in its capacity as custodian of the two holy mosques, takes with the utmost seriousness. This role is at the heart of the principles upon which Saudi Arabia is founded.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 05120.html
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Aditya_V »

Well the Saudis have destroyed many more mosques than say a Babri Masjid, but the entire Muslim world keeps quiet, it seems they cannot question the Saudis.
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Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Peregrine »

From The Economist - A subscription Site - Posting in full.

Why India’s Muslims are so moderate

ON SEPTEMBER 3RD Ayman al-Zawahiri, al-Qaeda's chief, released a video message in which he promised to "raise the flag of jihad" across South Asia. Many analysts responded with little more than a shrug. The extremist group looks increasingly desperate. Since Osama bin Laden was killed in 2011, al-Qaeda’s impact has been limited. It is overshadowed by the brutal Islamic State in Syria and Iraq, which draws volunteer fighters from a wide range of countries and has said that Afghanistan and Pakistan will be brought under its yoke too. Yet the biggest reason for scepticism about al-Qaeda’s threat is that neither it, nor the IS, are likely to get support from more than a tiny handful of Muslims in India.

India’s Muslims are numerous, but moderate. Though barely 15% of the total, at some 180m they roughly number the same as Pakistan’s entire population. Many are disaffected. In the only Muslim-majority state, Kashmir, residents are embittered by years of heavy-handed rule by Indian security forces, and protests frequently erupt. Occasional terrorist attacks take place in Indian cities, blamed on a home-grown group, the Indian Mujahideen. In February 2013 a bomb attack in Hyderabad killed 16. But these attacks have been growing less frequent and less deadly, possibly because support from Pakistan has waned. Bursts of deadly religious violence, when Muslims and Hindus clash, also take place, most notably last year near a northern town, Muzaffarnagar, when at least 40 people were killed. India’s Muslims generally have reasons for some gloom: they endure lower levels of education, income, political representation or government jobs than the majority Hindus. And yet India’s Muslims, almost across the board, have remained moderate, tolerant, quick to condemn religious violence and ready to engage members of other religions. The contrast with the sectarian bloodletting, growing radicalism and deepening conservatism in Pakistan next door, for example, is striking.

A combination of factors explains it. Islam in South Asia has a long history, over 1,000 years, but was long dominated by Sufis who integrated closely with non-Muslim Hindus, sharing many cultural practices. In Pakistan, decades of large-scale migration to the Gulf along with close political ties to Saudi Arabia saw harder forms of Sunni Islam adopted, notably the spread of Wahhabi and Deobandi mosques, madrassas and beliefs. By contrast many Indian Muslim migrants to the Gulf, for example from Kerala, have proved less effective at reimporting harder-line forms of Islam on a large scale. Indian madrassas appear to be under more watchful eyes of the state. It is crucial, too, that India—unlike Pakistan and many other countries with large Muslim populations—has long remained as a robust and lively democracy.
A secular constitution and the electoral clout of a sizeable minority helps give Muslims in India a stake in the political system. Many are also intensely proud to be Indian, even if a few support Pakistan’s cricket team. Targeted government welfare schemes to assist "backward" Muslim groups may help too. The election this year of Hindu nationalist, Narendra Modi, as prime minister has not cheered Indian Muslims. But his promise to treat the secular constitution as his "bible" helps to put a limit on anxiety. Perhaps as important, as Indian Muslims are widely dispersed around the country, they are in a small but not insignificant minority almost everywhere: that fact encourages both majority Hindus and Muslims mostly to rub along together, since extremism would prove disruptive for just about everyone.

Such moderation is obviously a boon, and prevents more communal violence. Even troubled Kashmir has for the past three years seen relative calm. A handful of Indian recruits have reportedly joined up with IS in the Middle East but because they are from a population of 180m that hardly looks significant (more worrying are reports of several young men joining the IS from increasingly hardline, Sunni-Islam Maldives). Yet moderation today is not a guarantee that extremism will not arise tomorrow in India. One additional reason at times given for India’s Muslims remaining moderate is that literacy rates and incomes have been low, leaving them relatively isolated from those global forces—such as jihadist websites and news of atrocities against Muslims in the Middle East—that help to spread rage elsewhere. Rising literacy, an ever-more urban population and growing wealth and information may yet encourage more extremist factions to emerge. Large migration flows to the Gulf might yet help to bring back more conservative Islamic beliefs and funds for Wahhabi mosques and madrassas. Similarly, if Hindu nationalists in power were to grow heavy-handed, a backlash and a rise in extremism are easy to imagine. The stability in India is a remarkable achievement. With luck, zealots and murderers such as al-Zawahiri will therefore fail in their desperate ambitions. But preserving stability will be a task for everyone.

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ramana
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

Let KSA go dig that tomb. They wont find anything there.

MO is like Jesus.
Never was there.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by member_22733 »

That economist article shows a very poor understanding of Islam and India. Makes me curious about the jackass who wrote it.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Agnimitra »

X-posting from Islamism & Islamophobia thread:

JohneeG ji, interesting compilation.

I recall reading in old Arab Islamic texts describing the process of "Arabization" that the original Arab race is dark, whereas the conquered mawaliyoon were light-skinned. The mu'arrabeen (Arabized mawalis) were often referred to by colour and racial terms, in reverse order to the colour-coded race terms used by Euro colonialists in later times, such as white, black, mulatto, etc.

"Red (al-hamra’) refers to non-Arabs due to their fair complexion which predominates amongthem. And the Arabs used to say about the non-Arabs with whom white skin was characteristic, such as the Romans, Persians, and their neighbors: ‘They are red-skinned (al-hamra’)…” al-hamra’ means the Persians and Romans…And the Arabs attribute white skin to the slaves." (Ibn Manzur [Lisan al-arab IV: 209, 210])

Al-Mubarrad (d. 898), the leading figure in the Basran grammatical tradition, claimed: "The Arabs used to take pride in their brown and black complexion (al-sumra wa al-sawād) and they had a distaste for a white and fair complexion (al-ḥumra wa al-shaqra), and they used to say that such was the complexion of the non-Arabs." Ibn Abī al-Ḥadīd, Sharḥ nahj al-balāghah, V:56.

Lisan El-Arab (an old Arabic dictionary) mentions Shamar’s explanation of the hadiths that say that the prophet Mohamed (pbuh) said that he was sent to the blacks and the reds. Shamar explains the hadiths as follows:

قال شمر: يعنـي العرب والعجم والغالب علـى أَلوان العرب السُّمرة والأُدْمَة وعلـى أَلوان العجم البـياض والـحمرة،

"He means (by the blacks and the reds) the Arabs and the non-Arabs and the complexion of most Arabs is brown and jet-black and the complexion of most non-Arabs is white and red."

Shams El-Din Mohamed ibn Ahmed ibn Othman El-Dhahabi (died1374 A.D.) explains the hadith that mentions that a man was “red-skinned as if he was one of the slaves” as follows:

يريد ألقائل أنه في لون ألموالي ألذين سبوا من نصارى ألشام وألروم و ألعجم

"The speaker means that the man was the color of the slaves who were captured from the Christians of Syria and from the Romans and the Persians." Thus, it was common for the Arabs of the past to describe a light-skinned person as having the color of the slaves. This is a known fact. Ibn Mandhor (1232-1311 A.D.) says in his book Lisan El-Arab:

سبوطة الشعر هي الغالبة علـى شعور العجم من الروم والفرس. و جُعودة الشعر هي الغالبة علـى شعور العرب

"Non-kinky hair is the kind of hair that most non-Arabs like the Romans and Persians have while kinky hair is the kind of hair that most Arabs have."

Ibn Mandhor says in his book Lisan El-Arab:

والعرب إِذا قالوا: فلان أَبـيض وفلانة بـيضاء فمعناه الكرم فـي الأَخلاق لا لون الـخـلقة، وإِذا قالوا: فلان أَحمر وفلانة حمراء عنوا بـياض اللون؛

"When the Arabs said that a man or a woman was ‘white’, they meant that the person was honorable. They weren’t talking about his/her complexion. When they (the Arabs) said that a man or a woman was ‘red’, they meant that his/her complexion was white."

I will have to dig up the other quotes from the books, but I found these online: Link

Moreover, this black-white competition and hatred is also recorded in political texts celebrating the conquests of the 'white' Levant and ME by black-skinned Muslims. They mock their captives and cheer Allah for showing them how 'blacks' can conquer 'whites' also.

But curiously, throughout Islamic history, there has been an attempt to portray the Prophet himself as 'white', not 'black'. The intellectual and later military takeover of Islam by Arabized Syrians, then later Persians and then Turks, etc. seems to have caused a deliberate attempt to strike a race-related note in Islam. Eventually, the typical Islamic compromise is to say that Muhammad was 'white' and his cousin 'Ali was 'short, stocky and dark'. Perhaps Arabs were a mixed race like many Indian groups - where one sibling is light and the other is dark. But still, there has been a long-running and definite attempt to show that the "pure" and "original" Arabs were some sort of 'white'. Similar to India and its "Aryan" nonsense.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by symontk »

ramana wrote:Let KSA go dig that tomb. They wont find anything there.

MO is like Jesus.
Never was there.
Lets keep bigotry away. lets have good discussions
ramana wrote:Thanks for the exposition on Islamic law.
Now to my real question. If Mo had to rely on Roman law to get his wife off suspicion by Ali, then how divine is the Koran and the Hadits.

And why dont willing or conniving tools like Hazelton etc point out the Egypto-Greco-Roman origins of Islamic hadits.
Where does Hammurabbi fit in all this? After all they were the big cheese for centuries in the region.
Islam grew in Arab but their laws are taken from Jewish sources. After the muslim invasion of Egypt, they got the Christian scholars from Alexandria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquest_of_Egypt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_cent ... ty#Antioch

That was what destroyed Islamic thought process. I will explain why. In Christianity, there were several power centers like Rome (political), Jerusalem (spiritual), Antioch (Theological), Alexandria (scripture)
By the end of the era, Alexandria, Rome, and Antioch were accorded authority over nearby metropolitans.....Some postulate, however, that Alexandria was not a center of Christianity, but of Christian-based Gnostic sects
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catechetic ... Alexandria
It was one of the two major centers of the study of biblical exegesis and theology during Late Antiquity, the other being the School of Antioch
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_Antioch
While the Christian intellectuals of Alexandria emphasized the allegorical interpretation of Scriptures and tended toward a Christology that emphasized the union of the human and the divine, those in Antioch held to a more literal and occasionally typological exegesis and a Christology that emphasized the distinction between the human and the divine in the person of Jesus Christ.
Once Muslims got hold those intellectuals in Alexandria, who excelled in Textual criticism, the same was applied for Islamic texts. That is how Quaran became unchangeable and what was written was given more value and shorn off the context. You need typological exegesis to have the context

Added to that, Gnosticism was incorporated into Islamic thoughts
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by member_28640 »

RoyG wrote:The problem is Shia's are enemies of dharma, just like Sunnis. They are more "open minded" than their sunni counterparts however they still do adhere to the core tenets of Islam. I do not believe Pakistan will remain as is forever. A break-up of the state will happen and the Iranians will move in, especially in Balochistan. The Shia's will be at our doorstep then. We have to make sure that they remain occupied with the Sunnis. This will take the pressure off of us.
Jot for a moment Saar not for a moment.. If you look at the anti israel terrorism done upto Osama bin laden you will find Shia names like Abu hamza etc...
In fact a book by a reputed author decries Shia as the more violent group..
The authors name is robyn something and I forget the books name
Ps after 9/11 the book was re written to focus more on Sunni extremism
ramana
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

Good to see mainstream media in US coming around go real core problems in Islam.
e.g. Bill Maher triggered a discussion ably Islam last week when his guests Sam Harris and Ben Afflec sparre
d over Islam.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Agnimitra »

Toronto Star:
India’s prostitute brides: Girls raped as temporary wives
In Hyderabad, young girls are sold as virgin brides, only to be raped and then abandoned — a de facto child prostitution supermarket.
rich men from Arab and lately African countries arrive in Hyderabad, marry young girls and sign divorce papers at the same time. The divorce papers are dated for a week or two after the marriage. They take the girls to posh hotels and when it is time for the men to leave, the girls are sent home. (Islam forbids prostitution; these short-term “marriages” circumvent that.)
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Agnimitra »

X-post:

Below is an excerpt from the writings of Sheikh Ahmad Sirhindi, known famously as Imam Rabbani. This should properly dispel any ignorance or denial of discrimination and the prevalence of untouchability in Islamic societies for centuries. Please note - across the Sunni world, Imam Rabbani is considered "mujaddid alf e thaani" in Islam - the second greatest expositor of Islam after Imam Ghazali. Rabbani was born and died in medieval India. Today, from the Gulenist Turks to all of Pakistan, they consider themselves disciples of Rabbani. The grandfather of modern Turkish Islamism, Said Nursi, said he had a vision of Rabbani who gave him gyaan.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by SBajwa »

"The accursed Kafir" in the translation above is the Fifth Guru Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Arjan

He was martyred for not converting to Islam. So Jahangir's head mullah told him that Guru ji needs to be shown the place where Kaafir's go for not converting to Islam. So! As mullah explained the different tortures (all using up heat since Hell is suppose to fire/hot/etc) to jail authorities.

So this was done!! In month of June at Lahore., all Gurdwaras have annual "Chhabeel" for this.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by RajeshA »

Continuing from "Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct 2014" Thread
SSridhar wrote:TTP Splintering - Editorial, DT
Wide cracks seem to be appearing in the once impenetrable facade of the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP). According to reports, the spokesman of the TTP, Shahidullah Shahid, has been unceremoniously booted out of the terror organisation for his remarks pledging allegiance to the caliph of the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. Just to clarify, the TTP has always pledged its loyalty and devotion to the leader of the Afghan Taliban, Mullah Omar. The fact that Shahidullah Shahid and five other leaders had the gall to deviate from the TTP’s oath is quite telling of the fact that all is not well within the militant organisation. Since the death of Hakeemullah Mehsud, the bloodthirsty leader of the TTP in a drone strike last year, the TTP has been seeing an exodus of some of its commanders and leaders of different cells going off to form splinter groups such as the Jamaatul Ahrar. The *deleted* in the TTP’s armour have been growing and this latest piece of news is not therefore too surprising.

ISIS has been in the media spotlight for a few months now for its savagery and successive victories in conquering territory in Syria and Iraq. This has made it a natural magnet for terror groups in many parts of the world looking to get in on the ISIS’s ‘glory’. Some members in the TTP are no different. That is why the leadership of the TTP — its leader Mullah Fazlullah is comfortably nestled in Afghanistan — has taken a harsh stand against Shahidullah Shahid’s public allegiance to Baghdahi instead of Omar. This is a good development for those who wish to see the menace of the TTP rooted out. The fact that the TTP is fracturing because of differences in its ranks augurs well for us, seeing that the militants are also being pounded by the Pakistan army during Operation Zarb-e-Azb still raging on in North Waziristan. Getting a beating at both ends will serve to push them further against the wall.

However, one word of caution. The Pakistan army needs to make sure that these operations — Zarb-e-Azb is now being followed by Operation Khyber-I — are not just piecemeal measures. The exodus of people that is beginning from Bara, Khyber Agency, will add to the devastating internally displaced persons (IDP) situation at hand. While Lashkar-e-Islam militants are compelling people there to stay because they need human shields, there is no hiding the fact that the IDPs need our protection and the militants are getting desperate. We cannot afford any complacency now that the militants are splintering. It is time to redouble efforts and annihilate them while the iron is hot.
This is what OBL referred to that people always follow the stronger horse.

This is also what I referred to on Page 3 of this thread.
RajeshA wrote:There can be no Wolves if there aren't constant kills on the Kufr most preferably but also on other rival Wolf Packs. If a Wolf is not steadily showing off his insatiable appetite towards others, he will lose his status and respect in society, and another Wolf will take over.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by RajeshA »

Continuing from "Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 10 Oct 2014" Thread
SSridhar wrote:
VikasRaina wrote:Is this a message to Brother Islamic mulk of Iran due to Iranian raid inside Paki borders few days back.
I do not know. Killing Shi'a is a work-in-progress for the last 67 years. It is also a national pastime. This is also a sort of initiation ceremony for the new recruits. It could well be a retaliation as well, but it is difficult to say because killing a Shi'a or an Ahmedi does not need any particular reason in Pakistan.
Just highlighting the obvious!

There are many different initiation game levels in Islam before a Puppy becomes a Dog and a Dog becomes a Wolf.⁽¹[Disclaimer: No disrespect intended]

You have Muslim children showing up at demonstrations with head scarfs calling "Death to India", to eve-teasing Kufr girls, to raping Kufr women, to picking a fight with other Kufr kids, to cursing and using vulgarity towards Kufr in general, to watching goats and cows being slaughtered, to trying out the Halal method themselves, ultimately progressing to other game levels like killing Shi'a and Ahmedis!

A Muslim kid is taught to be a real a**hole from a really young age as part of his training to becoming a good Muslim Momeen! There are of course always Muslim families who are corrupted by Kufr culture and Humanism and decide against imparting this essential training or go for a much watered down training course!
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