Understanding Islamic Society

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JE Menon
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by JE Menon »

JohneeG your post has been deleted out of sheer exasperation. Kindly format and indicate which part of the post is not a quote (I had to read the whole thing to find out what was what... And resize pictures before posting, or better just provide a link). That single post of yours took up as much space as a whole page normally does.
ramana
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

Looks like Winston Churchill wanted to convert to Islam. He was best friends with our buddy Wilfrid Scawen Blunt.

I guess he wanted to lead the faith fools as pasha to bring them in allegiance to British Empire!
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by KJo »

It looks like neo-Muslims in rural areas are just Hindus who pray to this new God called Allah. They are not Arabized yet. Converting them back to Hinduism is easy as not much changes for them.

Image
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Agnimitra »

X-post from UK thread:

Tommy Robinson speaks at the Oxford Union, about why the EDL was formed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyzGayfI400

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Prem »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4SRBqalMWQ
Christian Prince vs Muslim " Adult Only Watch This Debate "-

Christian Prince vs Dr Zakir Naik !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jARPWaR5OWg
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by johneeG »

JE Menon wrote:JohneeG your post has been deleted out of sheer exasperation. Kindly format and indicate which part of the post is not a quote (I had to read the whole thing to find out what was what... And resize pictures before posting, or better just provide a link). That single post of yours took up as much space as a whole page normally does.
JE Menon sir,
I didn't understand what you mean by 'indicate which part of the post is not a quote' because I had put quote tags around the quotes. If I had missed to put quote tags around some quote, then its a mistake on my part. But, as far as I remember, I had tried to put quote tags around all my quotes.

About pics: I admit that those pics were messing up the page size and I am sorry for that but I thought they were relevant. I had posted them, because I thought they were relevant to the point I was trying to make. Similarly, the quotes were also quoted because I thought they were relevant to my point.I had already reduced the size of the pics and I thought that further reducing the size would have made the pics not clear. If the policy is to not allow posting pics directly on the forum, then I'll post links. Please specify if that is the moderator policy.

As for the length: I don't know if there is rule about the length of the post. If there is a rule, then please specify it and I'll adhere to it.
JE Menon
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by JE Menon »

^Use common sense boss. If the post is as long as a whole page normally is, something is wrong. If it contains 10 quotes and quotes within quotes, and about 10 lines of new commentary in the whole thing, something is wrong. Organise it so admins don't have to trawl through it to find out whether some rule has been broken or not... Believe it or not, some of us read every single thread/post on this forum.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Agnimitra »

Sushupti ji tweeted an excerpt from this today.

Altaf Hussain Hali (1837–1914) is the author of an epic Urdu poem "Madd o Jazr e Islam" - "The Ebb and Flow of Islam". He wrote it in a poetic meter called "musaddas", so the poem is called "Musaddas e Hali". It was written at the request of Sir Syed Ahmad Khan. Hali was a disciple of Ghalib, and grandfather of film script writer K.A. Abbas.

In the poem, which promises that there will be a new tide of Islam after the current "ebb", clearly points out the last wall Islam hit - the unfinished business of Hindu India:

وہ دین حجازی کا بیباک بیڑا
نشان جس کا اقصاۓ عالم میں پھنچا
مزاحم ہوا کوی خطرہ نہ جس کا
نہ عمان میں ٹھٹکا نہ قلزم میں جھجکا

کۓ پے پر جس نے ساتوں سمندر
وہ ڈوبا دھانہ میں گنگا کے آکر

woh deen-e-Hijazi ka be-baak beRaa
nishaan jis ka aqsaa-e-aalam mein pahuncha
muzaahim hua koi khatra na jis ka
na Oman mein ThiTkaa na Qulzum mein jhijka

kiye pai par jis ne saato.n samandar
woh Dooba dahaneh mein Ganga ke aakar


"That fearless fleet of the Religion of Hijaz (western Saudi Arabia)
Whose ensign reached the extreme limits of the World
Which no obstacle could endanger
Which did not falter in the Gulf of Oman or in the Red Sea

That which crossed the seven seas
It drowned in the mouth of the Ganges"

He bemoans that militarily and mystically, Islam succumbed to or was not strong enough for Hinduism at that time.

The last 2 times Islam had a high tide, the classical civilizations were in ebb and decadent.
What will happen if Islam's coming tsunami coincides with the other civilizations -- especially the Hindu -- rising out of torpor?

Here's Pakistani crooner Junaid Jamshed singing the lyrical verses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2Hl81Gtk0o
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by abhik »

^^^
That was also quoted by NaMo in one of his election rallies (in Patna I think). Though he incorrectly said that it was about Alexander (an not Islam). Though I don't know if it was a genuine mistake or psyops. :twisted:
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by johneeG »

JE Menon wrote:^Use common sense boss. If the post is as long as a whole page normally is, something is wrong. If it contains 10 quotes and quotes within quotes, and about 10 lines of new commentary in the whole thing, something is wrong. Organise it so admins don't have to trawl through it to find out whether some rule has been broken or not... Believe it or not, some of us read every single thread/post on this forum.
I'd like to clarify that when I quote myself I do it so as to avoid typing the same content. I like to use mine or anybody else's posts to convey the point. Generally, when I quote my own posts, I am merely avoiding to type the same content all over again.

I could have copy pasted it instead of quoting it but quoting it seemed a better thing to do because it gives the original context in which it was posted.

I like to reply or post everything in one post, so the posts end up becoming long. For example, generally, I reply to many posters in post. Others tend to split up their posts or replies into multiple posts. I find it convenient to post or reply to everything in one post. Perhaps, long posts are a hassle for surfers who use tablets or mobiles. In that case, I apologize.

But, as I said, I'll stick to the admin policy of the length of the size. Please specify if there is some policy regard to length of the post, quotes and pics.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by vishvak »

That fearless fleet of the Religion of Hijaz (western Saudi Arabia)
The first line reminds me of Hijaz when I read these messages:
https://twitter.com/KekHamo/status/550761647271604227

The apparent racism that ISIS has is nothing new, all Caliphates were racist, pure blood Arabs were always superior.

. By the way, the word "Caliphate" was never used by prophet of the Muslims, in fact the Caliphates were to secular for orthodox Muslims.

. Basically they hoped to return to the true Islam. After that many Caliphs did same thing, just like ISIS is doing now.

. ISIS might not be "true Muslims", but their behaviour is not much different as many Caliphates in the past, this is just happening now.

. @ImYrPresent I agree, but what I'm saying is that this is nothing new in history of Middle East, ppl should stop glorifying the past.

..
https://twitter.com/KekHamo/status/550763241023221760
By the way, when I say "pure blood Arab Muslim" I'm talking about those from Hijaz. Syrians, Iraqis, Egyptians... were not "pure blood". #PT
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Agnimitra »

Wishing all members a contemplative Milad-un-Nabi.

On this occasion, MP Asaduddin Owaisi says that all babies are born Muslim, but non-believing parents conspire to turn them towards other religions. Therefore, real Ghar Wapasi is to "revert" to Islam:

Embracing Islam will be real home coming: Asaduddin Owaisi
The MP from Hyderabad said that every child is born as a Muslim but his parents convert him to other religions. "The real home coming will be when people of other religions embrace Islam," he said, addressing a public meeting on the eve of 'Milad-un-Nabi' on Saturday night.
However, the Qur'an itself and earliest Islamic sources depict a very different kind of Ghar Wapasi phenomenon:

The earliest commentary by Ibn Kathir on the Qur'an has this to say about the ayat 3:110: "You, Muslims, are the best nation among peoples, and you bring the people tied in chains on their necks (capture them in war) and they later embrace Islam."

Moreover, this verse in the Qur'an alludes to the same directly in Allah's (swt) words:

إِنَّا جَعَلْنَا فِي أَعْنَاقِهِمْ أَغْلاَلاً فَهِيَ إِلَى الأَذْقَانِ فَهُم مُّقْمَحُونَ

36.8 "We have surely put chains around the necks (of the unbelievers among your people), right up to their chins, so that their heads are forced up."


The Islamic form of Ghar Wapasi had the tone of a final, enraged response from Allah and Fitrah against the deviant people who were too stubborn to submit to the one true religion - Islam. Islamic Ghar Wapasi, by its fundamentals, threatened chains around necks.

Compare Buddhist missionaries who converted entire civilizations without sending a single soldier, with the above Qur'anic boast about the clanking of shackled necks.

The conversion experience is fundamental to natural human spiritual awakening. Some spiritual paths capitalize on that to make the human more human, able to relate to all living entities. Some religions misuse it to devour souls in a cult-like fanaticism and supremacist exclusivism.

This could promote greater contemplation by dialogue this with fanatic tableghis who call for "reverting" to Islam, often accompanied by ridiculing other religious cultures or expressing hatred for them - with little knowledge of them.

To give another view, this is an essay by a Muslim convert to Vedic Hinduism: "I am not Arab"
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Agnimitra »

Khan Abdul Ghafar Khan (Bacha Khan) on the Palestine issue, and similar trends among Pashtuns:

Image
In 1926 after performing the Hajj, I went to Palestine. Seeing the situation of Arab Muslims there, I found that just like Pashtuns, the maulvis have made them sit in anticipation of the Mahdi, waiting for him to come and fix everything. I would roam around in Jerusalem, taking stock of the situation, and have conversations in the hotels and cafes with Arabs and Palestinians, discussions on the future of Arabs and Palestinians. One day I was discussing with a few Palestinians. I told them, 'Look, you folks are making a big mistake by selling your lands to the Jews. And the Jews settle on these lands (that they buy from you). Why can't you yourselves do the same? Wherever I have seen land here that is beautifully settled, with a bungalow, garden and water management, I have found that land is settled by Jews; and the land that remains barren belongs to Muslims. The Jews have set up small, small beautiful villages; but you Arabs are deep in the sleep of ignorance.' One Arab among them replied that this 14th century (Hijri - by Islamic calendar) is the last century. We are selling our lands to the Jews because at the end of this century the Imam Mahdi will arrive and these lands will once again belong to the Muslims. That's when I realized that the maulvi has made the Palestinians sit down in expectation of the Mahdi, just like the Pashtuns. These people were so ignorant that, forget about the Mahdi, when nations did not abide by prophets they failed to accomplish their goals.

Now sometimes I think that I should go back to those Arabs and ask them that the 14th century has now completed (it was completed in 21 November 1979 C.E.); whose are those lands now? Jews' or Muslims'? The nation that does not protect its interests and lands, there the rule of darkness/oppression will prevail."
Looks like Baluchistan, Pashtun Afghanistan, etc were all being primed for the end-of-times advent of the Mahdi from Khorasan for at least 120 years. It was supposed to happen by the end of 14 centuries of the Islamic calendar, but the date has passed.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Prem »

WATCH FROM 1140
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Manny »

It would be good if we have a thread "Understanding evangelical christian supremacist society". Could the powers to be open such a thread.

IMO, Muslim society is not all that bad. Neither are christian societies..they too are good and wonderful for the most part.


If I were to compare Islamists (radical Muslims) to Evangelicals (radical christians), Islamists are less of a threat to Hindus and Indians relative to evangelical christians. (with the exception of the Pakistanis where their liberal left scotch drinking Pakies are far more evil than any right wing Islamists. They hide behind the naive radical Muslims to do their evil against India)
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by sanjaykumar »

Islamists are less of a threat to Hindus and Indians relative to evangelical christians. (with the exception of the Pakistanis where their liberal left scotch drinking Pakies are far more evil than any right wing Islamists. They hide behind the naive radical Muslims to do their evil against India)


Perceptive, and the Islamists are easy to identify and pre-empt.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

Manny EJ Christianity is a political doctrine just as Islamism is. GDF has a thread for long time.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by A_Gupta »

http://www.theislamicmonthly.com/isis-i ... f-sunnism/
An interesting article on the failure of Sunni Islam, but I for one am not able to fit Pakistan into this picture.
The fundamental problem that has given rise to both Islamophobia and ISIS is that in the modern age, after the collapse of the authority of Sunni madhahibs, Sunni theologians continue to claim that Islam provides the moral grounds for the regulation of Muslim societies, but they have lost the ability and ambition to make this claim effective. As a result, a radical legal pluralism has taken root in the Sunni world, particularly in its Arabic-speaking regions, where every individual has become entitled to express an interpretation of the content of Islamic law. In the absence of a modern Islamic theory of the legitimacy of the state, law and democracy, it is no surprise that Muslims and non-Muslims repair to pre-modern texts when seeking to determine what the normative Islamic baseline on any particular issue is. When this normative vacuum is combined with the profound failure of the Arab state system to produce citizens willing and capable of cooperation in the context of a common political project, it should not be surprising that some Muslims take up interpretations of Islam and Islamic law that are apocalyptic in their scope and claims as an answer to the catastrophic failures of those states.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by pankajs »

I an unable to decide if this belongs here or the other thread on Islamism. Mods pls move is needed.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 841001.cms

Terror attacks cannot save Islam's 'honour'
Soon after the terrorist attack on Charlie Hebdo, Islamist sympathizers on social media unleashed familiar rhetoric. Al Qaida and ISIS supporters used Arabic language hashtags like "our revenge for the messenger (Muhammad)", "Paris is the messenger (Muhammad)", "Paris is Burning", "Paris under Fire" and "Lions of Tawheed (monotheism)". One self-styled jihadi tweeted, "This is the first reaction. You'll not live in safety again." Another said: "This proves that the Islamic State can strike deep in Europe whenever it wishes." Someone styling himself as Abu Sari alIraqi put up a graphic of the Islamic State's black flag on the Eiffel Tower, with the slogan in French: "We are everywhere."

Such bombast reflects the emptiness of the Islamist dream. The killing of unarmed cartoonists and journalists is hardly an act of courage. Paris did not, in fact, burn and this latest act of terrorism mobilized the French against the jihadis just as terrorist attacks in New York, London and Mumbai had united people against them in the past.

More important, terrorism is unlikely to dissuade anyone so inclined to refrain from insulting Islam, its prophet or Muslims. Like followers of any other religion, Muslims do not like insults to their faith or to their prophet. But threats and actual attacks of the type witnessed in Paris last week have been limited to Islamists.

Contrary to the assertion of some, such violence has nothing to do with recent wars or the policies of great powers in Iraq, Afghanistan or Syria. A man named Alam Din from Lahore was proclaimed a 'ghazi' for killing a Hindu publisher of a book insulting Prophet Muhammad in 1929.Salman Rushdie's 'Satanic Verses' prompted fatwas and violent protests 50 years later. These incidents cannot be attributed as reaction to US military intervention.

Of course, not all of the world's over one billion Muslims react to real or perceived insults to their religion in the same manner. Believers in different deities and prophets have often slandered each other's faiths. Islam has endured its share of criticism and abuse over the centuries, especially from Christians, against whom they fought the Crusades and the Ottoman wars.

But in earlier times, Muslims responded to religious affronts by pointing out flaws in other religions and outlining their own perfect faith. Their armies were violent but so were the armies of others. When Muslim emperors ruled over large non-Muslim populations, preachers and Sufi mystics worked to win converts to Islam. There is no record in those days of targeted attacks in retaliation for blasphemy against the prophet or Islam in distant lands.

The phenomenon of violent outrage over insults to Islam seems to have started during western colonial rule, with Muslim politicians seeking issues to mobilize their constituents. Contemporary jihadism seems to have grown out of the slogan 'Islam in Danger', which has been periodically invoked as a rallying cry for Islamist politics.

Ironically, it is the Islamists who draw attention to otherwise obscure attacks on Islam and then use those to muster popular support. The reaction makes more people aware of a book like Rushdie's or a film like 'The Innocence of Muhammad'. Charlie Hebdo regularly published only 45,000 copies but will likely be read by hundreds of thousands now.

The violence over 'Islam's honour' is a function of the collective Muslim narrative of grievance. Decline, weakness, impotence, and helplessness are phrases most frequently repeated in the speeches and writings of today's Muslim leaders. The view is shared by Islamists, who consider Islam a political ideology , and other Muslims who don't. The terrorists are just the most extreme element among the Islamists. As a community , Muslims are obsessed with their past pre-eminence, which stands in stark contrast with their current weakness. The bravado of beheading blasphemers and thinking a terrorist attack can change the global order are ways of reclaiming a glory that is vividly recalled but not seen by Muslims in recent centuries.

Like all national and community narratives, this one has elements of truth. But it is equally true that Muslims have made no serious effort to understand the causes and remedies of their decline over the past 300 years. Outrage, resentment and violence -and the conspiracy theories that inform them -serve as palliatives for an Ummah that reads little, writes even less, hasn't invented much in recent centuries, and wields little political or military power in the contemporary world. Dealing with the causes of Muslim decline, not random or orchestrated acts of terrorism, would be the real way forward in saving Muslims from dishonour.

(The writer is former Pakistan envoy to the US)
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by A_Gupta »

Speaker: Maulana Abdul Jabbar
Location: Jamia Masjid Ahle Hadith Habibpura, Sialkot
Sect: Ahle Hadith
Language: Urdu
Time: May 2010
http://imams.mashalbooks.org/?p=468
One of the rejecters of hadith is Sir Syed Ahmad Khan whom people at times go to the extent of calling a hero. Sir Syed was born in 1817 and was dead in 1898. He was greatly enamoured of the West and liked its ways. People will remember that he set up Aligarh University to convert Muslims into angrez (Englishmen). No one remembers that he also wrote a tafseer (exegesis) of the Quran.

When Sir Syed’s tafseer was presented to Abul Kalam Azad he said it is not a tafseer of the Quran but its rebuttal (rejection). Sir Syed rejected all miracles and said he did not believe in miracles (mujaza). He did not believe in Paradise and Hell. Nor in angels and the jinn. Thus all that is stated in the Quran he rejected. He also rejected hadith.

Sir Syed thus played an important role as an enemy of Islam.
The 7th group of the deniers or rejecters of hadith is called the Chakralwi Group. Its founder Chakralwi was an inhabitant of Gurdaspur. He not only rejected the hadith – listen to this carefully – he said hadith is ‘shirk’ (adding someone to the Oneness of Allah). He rejected the miracles, he rejected the pain of the grave and rejected intervention (shafaat) and denied that the Prophet PBUH was the last Prophet.

The 8th group of rejecters are those who say the entire faith is a game. They say religion has to be changed according to times and the muftis should carry out the duty of suiting religion to times. According to them beard and shalwar over the ankles was a way of the Companions centuries ago. Jihad and Zakat too was the order of the Companions and is no longer relevant. Likewise purdah is irrelevant today. Today’s issues are different and religion must find solutions to them by changing itself. Make a new religion so that people can accept it in our times. The leader of this gang was Ghulam Ahmad Pervaiz who died in 1985 in Lahore. Today’s zinda laash (walking corpse) Javed Ahmad Ghamidi is another of these rejecters who has a made a game out of religion and has tried his best to distort it.

I will dwell on Ghamidi next week or the week next but let me tell you about the 9th group that rejects the hadith and that is the one led by Masududdin Usmani. He says he does not reject hadith but any hadith that clashes with the Quran is rejected. My question is can hadith be against the Quran? :((

Those who reject hadith say hadith is not wahi (voice of Allah) but in Sura Yunus verse 15 it is said that Allah follows wahi and the Prophet too follows wahi. This proves that hadith too is wahi. Sura Nisa verse 113 tells us that Allah sent down Quran and hadith both. Sura Najm says the Prophet PBUH does not speak on his own therefore hadith is wahi. And Sura Qiyamat says Quran was sent down by Allah and He also explains it through hadith; therefore hadith is wahi.

They also say that hadith is against reason (aql) but I say it is against your personal aql, it cannot be against reason. Only Hindus, Christians and Jews are against reason. What is hadith but the sayings of the Prophet PBUH? And the Prophet PBUH is the highest point of reason in the Creation. How can hadith be against reason?

And if hadith is against your reason then you should also deny the Quran. The Quran says Hud-Hud and Ant can talk among themselves. The Quran talks about miracles. They are also things that defy reason. Those who deny the hadith deny also the Quran.

There is objection that hadith is against science. The fact is that hadith is not against the sciences. The truth is that the sciences are against the sciences. Scientist appeared among humanity and declared first that the earth is static and does not move. Then another group came and said the earlier scientists made a mistake and the earth actually moves. Some said the sky is non-existent and later some said as far as the eye can see it is the sky. The truth is that the science that we have manufactured is pitted against itself. It is also against hadith but hadith can never be against reason.

The Quran in Sura Kahf says Zulqarnain went in the direction of the West and saw the sun set. Science says the sun never sets. If the sun never really sets then the Quran is against science. (That is the position.) O those who reject hadith do also reject the Quran! The Quran and hadith are the Kalam of Allah and the sayings of the Prophet PBUH. We can reject the sciences but not the Quran and hadith.

The objection is that hadith goes against history. The fact is that some history has come down with authentic sources. Hadith will never be against history if history is given with proof. And if you say that hadith goes against history then the Quran too is against history. The Quran says Azar was the father of Hazrat Ibrahim and man-made history says Azar was his uncle. Whom should we believe, the Quran or history? We cannot go along with history; we cannot reject hadith and the Quran.

Then the objection is that hadith has contradictions but the fact is that there is no contradiction in hadith. If you insist on contradiction then the fact is that Quran too has contradictions. Should we then reject the Quran? Sura Baqara verse 234 says if a husband dies his widow will have four months of iddat (waiting) but verse 240 says the period is one year.

Does this mean that the Quran is contradictory? No the truth is that one order is replaced with another order of Allah. The Quran says Allah replaces one earlier order with a later order (mansookh). Sura Infaal verse 65 says if you are 20 and confront 200 enemy you will overcome. Then the Quran says if you are 100 you will overcome 200 of the enemy. Does this mean the Quran contradicts itself? This first order came in light of the virtues of the Muslims and the second order came in the light of their weaknesses.

Hadith and the Quran have no internal contradictions.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

Any more follow-ups?
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Prem »

These guys are worst than animal

[youtube]bcNVMmhmzH4&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Rishirishi »

In my entire life, i have never seen anything more disturbing.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Prem »

Rishirishi wrote:In my entire life, i have never seen anything more disturbing.
I took few hours for me to calm down. These inhuman people deserve no mercy . I sincerely hope some trace this family and teach them good lesson reversing the situation.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Gus »

johneeG wrote: I'd like to clarify that when I quote myself I do it so as to avoid typing the same content. I like to use mine or anybody else's posts to convey the point. Generally, when I quote my own posts, I am merely avoiding to type the same content all over again.

I could have copy pasted it instead of quoting it but quoting it seemed a better thing to do because it gives the original context in which it was posted.

I like to reply or post everything in one post, so the posts end up becoming long. For example, generally, I reply to many posters in post. Others tend to split up their posts or replies into multiple posts. I find it convenient to post or reply to everything in one post. Perhaps, long posts are a hassle for surfers who use tablets or mobiles. In that case, I apologize. .
clicking on the URL next to the subject in your post give you the URL to your post, like this

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1774008

Yes, your long posts is a hassle for mobile readers like me so I usually skip your posts when it is too long. No apologies :P I do that to most long posts..
ramana
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

Transcript of Fresh Air interview of Majid Nawaz a former Islamist in UK.

http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript ... =377442344

It confirms many of our conclusions.....
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by A_Gupta »

X-Post from Islamophobia thread.

A very clear passage from Dr. Bill Warner, who is also author of the Statistical Islam paper.
http://www.politicalislam.com/product/f ... ersuasion/

emphasis added.
THE GOOD MUSLIM

There is an attempt to make the problem of Islam go away. It is the “good Muslim” who will save the day. Everybody seems to know a “good Muslim” who is a friend at work.

What is a good Muslim? A good Muslim is one who seems non-violent.

But that point of view is not Islamic. Islam is the one and only basis of determining what a good Muslim is.
An apologist’s opinion of “good” is not relevant to anyone, except to the apologist and his friends. Islam says that a good Muslim is one who follows the Koran and the Sunna. That is the one and only criteria of being a good Muslim.

Apologists think that good Muslims are a proof of a “good” Islam and that the doctrine makes no difference. Oddly enough, Muslims do not agree with this. Muslims have one and only one definition of what a “good Muslim” is, one who has submitted to Islam and follows the Sunna. The cause is Islam; the effect is Muslim. Apologists think that Islam submits to Muslims, but apologists are ignorant, so they are free of facts, and in the soil of ignorance, any fantastic flower grows.

The problem in talking about Muslims as a group of people is that there are three kinds of Muslim.

The first kind is the Meccan Muslim. A Meccan Muslim is primarily a religious person without the jihadic politics.

A Medinan Muslim is a political Muslim.

Then there is the Muslim who follows the Golden Rule, instead of Islamic ethics.

At this point a voice can be heard: “I know this Muslim and he is a good person. There are good Muslims.” Notice the shift from Islam to a person. Yes, he may be a good person, but that is different from being a good Muslim. His goodness is due to his following the Golden Rule and treating a Kafir as a human being. A Golden Rule Muslim is one who is an apostate to some degree.

Maybe the Golden Rule Muslim drinks beer or doesn’t go to the mosque.All Muslims have some Kafir in them. The Kafir civilization has much to offer: freedom, wealth, friendship, women who do not wear a bag for a garment and great entertainment. Some Muslims prefer Kafir civilization to Islamic civilization in many ways.

Since every Muslim can have three parts, it is hard to nail him down. There is a shifty quality that goes with the territory. Which center of gravity is he coming from? Is he religious, political, or friend? If religious or political, then he is not your friend, but a deceiver. But if he is your friend, then he is following the Golden Rule and is a Kafir. But how do you ever trust him? When is he Kafir? When is he Muslim?
The Qaid-e-Azam Jinnah was never a Meccan Muslim. The story of his life is his transition from being a Golden Rule Muslim to being increasingly a Medinian Muslim.

The Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb was a Meccan + Medinian Muslim. AFAIK he was never a Golden Rule Muslim.

The Mughal Emperor Akbar went from being a Medinian Muslim in his very young age to being almost completely a Golden Rule Muslim, so much so that the Islamic orthodoxy execrates him.
A_Gupta
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by A_Gupta »

More Dr. Bill Warner:
So the Trilogy is the Koran, Sira and Hadith. The Koran is the smallest part of Islam’s “bible”. If we count the words in each text we find that Islam is 16% Allah and 84% Mohammed.
The importance of Mohammed can be found in the religion of Islam.

Most Kafirs think that you become a Muslim by worshiping the God Allah, but this is not true. You can worship the God Allah and still not be a Muslim. What it takes to be a Muslim is to worship Allah exactly like Mohammed did, and we know exactly how he worshiped his God.

The further importance of Mohammed can be found in this: there is not enough in the Koran to enable you to practice the religion of Islam. For instance, the Koran says to pray, but does not tell how to do Islamic prayer. That information comes from the Hadith. All of the details of how to be a Muslim are found in Mohammed’s example, not from the Koran.

There are Five Pillars of Islam which we will study in the next lesson, but there is not enough information in the Koran to practice even one of the Five Pillars. You cannot worship in an Islamic way without imitating Mohammed. Mohammed’s way of doing things is so important that it has a very special name: the Sunna, which means the Way.

It is in Mohammed that we find right and wrong, except right and wrong as we think of it in a moral sense is not used within Islam. Instead the concept is: “What is permitted” and “What is forbidden.” What is permitted is what Mohammed did. What is forbidden is what he said not to do, or he himself didn’t do, so the Sunna of Mohammed is what dictates Islam.

To know Islam we have to study Mohammed.

One of the ways that you can tell how much someone knows about Islam is if they mention Mohammed or not. Sometimes you run into people who want to explain Islam on the basis of the Koran. When this happens, you can be sure you have run into a person who does not really understand Islam or is a deceiver. The Koran is not remotely enough to explain Islam, since it is incomplete.

Let’s take a very small item. Have you ever been watching a news broadcast and there’s some Islamic leader from the Middle East and he’s talking and he’s angry, perhaps he’s shouting. Why do they do this? One simple reason: Mohammed was easily angered. This is recorded in both the Sira and the Hadith, so when you see a Muslim who is quick to anger, he is simply imitating Mohammed.
ramana
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

The Medinan or the political Muslim comes in two forms:

Islamist
Jihadi/terrorist.

An Islamist wants to reestablish the Caliphate all over again everywhere. You see them in many forms: agitating for special favors, halal food, separate schools for Muslims, prayers rooms in business buildings, etc.

A jihadi/terrorist is outraged by the Kafir world and resorts to violence as decreed by Muhammad. The Paris attacks are by these types.
ramana
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

A_Gupta also explains the rage at ridiculing Muhammad.

A trick question if Koran is what God revealed to Muhammad what are the hadits? How can they be extra revelations not in Koran?
ramana
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

RamaY wrote blog post on his take on how Abrahmism evolved.
gandharva
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by gandharva »

ramana wrote:A_Gupta also explains the rage at ridiculing Muhammad.

A trick question if Koran is what God revealed to Muhammad what are the hadits? How can they be extra revelations not in Koran?
That's Quran in action. As per emic view of Islam, Mohammad understood Allah's message ie Quran best and lived his life according to that. Quran is meaningless and without context in the absence of Sunnah ie Hadith.
gandharva
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by gandharva »

A_Gupta wrote:More Dr. Bill Warner:
So the Trilogy is the Koran, Sira and Hadith. The Koran is the smallest part of Islam’s “bible”. If we count the words in each text we find that Islam is 16% Allah and 84% Mohammed.
The importance of Mohammed can be found in the religion of Islam.

Most Kafirs think that you become a Muslim by worshiping the God Allah, but this is not true. You can worship the God Allah and still not be a Muslim. What it takes to be a Muslim is to worship Allah exactly like Mohammed did, and we know exactly how he worshiped his God.

The further importance of Mohammed can be found in this: there is not enough in the Koran to enable you to practice the religion of Islam. For instance, the Koran says to pray, but does not tell how to do Islamic prayer. That information comes from the Hadith. All of the details of how to be a Muslim are found in Mohammed’s example, not from the Koran.

There are Five Pillars of Islam which we will study in the next lesson, but there is not enough information in the Koran to practice even one of the Five Pillars. You cannot worship in an Islamic way without imitating Mohammed. Mohammed’s way of doing things is so important that it has a very special name: the Sunna, which means the Way.

It is in Mohammed that we find right and wrong, except right and wrong as we think of it in a moral sense is not used within Islam. Instead the concept is: “What is permitted” and “What is forbidden.” What is permitted is what Mohammed did. What is forbidden is what he said not to do, or he himself didn’t do, so the Sunna of Mohammed is what dictates Islam.

To know Islam we have to study Mohammed.

One of the ways that you can tell how much someone knows about Islam is if they mention Mohammed or not. Sometimes you run into people who want to explain Islam on the basis of the Koran. When this happens, you can be sure you have run into a person who does not really understand Islam or is a deceiver. The Koran is not remotely enough to explain Islam, since it is incomplete.

Let’s take a very small item. Have you ever been watching a news broadcast and there’s some Islamic leader from the Middle East and he’s talking and he’s angry, perhaps he’s shouting. Why do they do this? One simple reason: Mohammed was easily angered. This is recorded in both the Sira and the Hadith, so when you see a Muslim who is quick to anger, he is simply imitating Mohammed.

ba khuda diwana bash o ba Muhammad hoshiyar
(have fun about Allah but be careful when it comes to Muhammad).

This seems to be a very apt warning because in the belief system that is Islam, Allah has been replaced by his prophet. One cannot be a Muslim merely by believing in Allah as the only God; one has to believe in Muhammad also as the Last Prophet. In fact Allah is not and cannot be known or even approached except through Muhammad. Allah has spoken through Muhammad in the Quran and acted through him in the Hadis.

http://voiceofdharma.org/books/foe/ch06.htm
ramana
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by ramana »

Since Islam is a mind game the counter also has to be a mind game which frees the reptilian survival brain.

The mind has to be set free.
JE Menon
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by JE Menon »

While there are a bunch of lunatix cutting loose, we need to keep the outliers in mind as well:

Dhiyaa Al Musaawi (judging by his turban, a sayyid): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZRuH21JTak
Here he debates an Al Azhar scholar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUbziweqSgQ

Ibrahim Al Buleihi (a member of the Saudi Shura council): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joOi-uTcKWg
Also an opportunity for BRFites to hear what real Arabic sounds like :D

Sayyed Ayad Jamal Al Din (former Iraqi MP): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbUUNonUgE8
On the separation of religion and state - he starts at about 2:15
BRF is familiar with him, as his views on youtube have been posted before. Be patient and watch him. The guy is brutally honest and courageous. I'm a fan. He's a highly rational individual, all things considered. Would fit in neatly with the RSS.

Shaikh Abd Al Hamid Al Ansari, former Dean of Islamic Law at Qatar University: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAPKYKhTp8U

Egyptian author Sayyid Al Qimni: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XuPWvsbxfI

We need to know what is going on, the kind of discussions that are happening...
JE Menon
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by JE Menon »

And this just for fun: Saudi King Abdullah threatens Qadhafi with the grave after the latter criticises the kingdom at an Arab League meeting I think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYY_ws6axKo
Paul
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Paul »

Image

Mahmud of Ghazni with his lover Malik Ayaz
KJo
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by KJo »

Why do so many Beacefool people get the ghey? Is it because they put their wimmens in shuttlecock burqas so they need something to get a release, so go for TFTA mens? I thought ghey-ness was haraam in Izlaam.

Man, how horrible to live in a world where you don't get to admire nature's most beautiful creation.
Agnimitra
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by Agnimitra »

A dekho into the intra-community politics in "vanguard" Islamist colonies, such as those in Londonistan:

Row breaks out over Harrow Central Mosque elections

A Wahhabi gang trying to mount a takeover of a Barelvi mosque whose younger members of the congregation are mostly Deobandis critical of the Barelvis but embarrassed by Wahhabis.

This kind of news is fairly common, and a subject of heated discussion and frequent intra-community "campaigns" - the mafia-like takeovers of masjids or other social service tanzeems.

The linked article also doesn't mention certain things about this particular case - details which are also typical of such incidents:

- The Wahhabi gang tried to physically steal the keys to the masjid, change the locks, and commandeer the pulpit for Friday khutbah. But mounting such a "coup", they hoped to establish a new dispensation in true jihadi style. The fact that they could get the keys, etc is an indication of the penetration they have within the mosque's congregation itself.

- The election organizing body of the mosque is itself implicated in colluding with the Wahhabi gang. This is in conspiracy against the Barelvi body composed of aging Pakistanis. The point here is not just the sectarian Wahhabi-Barelvi schism, but also the generational gap within the congregation: The younger generation, even of Pakistani worshipers, seem embarrassed by the Barelvi elders and their practices considered unorthodox by proper Muslims. The Wahhabis and others often float a "peer conspiracy", alluding to the veneration of "peers" and other teachers of mysticism. This causes immense khujli among the young, ideologically keen nanha mujahids. To counter this, the Barelvis have also entered the takfiri space - making an ideology out of certain "sufi" practices and declaring that those who attack those beliefs are un-Islamic.

- The third major factor is the introduction of diversity into such congregations. Once a mainly Pakjabi congregation, this one (like others) became filled with African Muslims, Arabs, and white converts. That has a double effect on the young Pakjabi worshiper - he finds himself unable to defend the 'traditional' subcontinental flavour of Islam when questioned by the superior Arab, neo-convert white, or even African Muslims (Somalis and others can be very scholarly - with many haafizes). Secondly, the demand for more suave, modern, English-speaking and educated Imams or PR persons for the masjid increases, preferably with some PhD alphabet soup trailing behind his name.

If such a person is found, the congregation takes a turn towards "sufisticated" pan-Islamism - no less vicious towards the kuffar, but far more sophisticated in its injection into the intellection bloodstream of the host society, and more able to win better quality converts. If such a person is not found, or not good enough, then the masjid falls to a more Wahhabi gang. In this way, the propaganda centers, fortresses, listening posts and property waqf of the oil drop are constantly a battle-ground for intra-community politics.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Post by vishvak »

Thank you for this post, Agnimitra ji. Reminded me of this link. A few observations about majority/minority and its affect. And others are just to believe that things are just perfect and hunky dory within!
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