Understanding Islamic Society

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AbhiJ
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby AbhiJ » 17 Mar 2013 18:59

Why would EJs kill their allies?

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby pankajs » 19 Mar 2013 07:36

Apologies if this has been posted before.
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Three Stages of Jihad

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby pankajs » 19 Mar 2013 13:37

Marriage contract in Islam


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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Agnimitra » 19 Mar 2013 23:33

(Sunni) Islam’s Structure in Religious Authority
Islam is a religion that recognizes no authoritative source of doctrinal interpretation like the Pope. The lack of an authoritative source of doctrinal interpretation means that Islam lacks a hierarchal structure like the Catholic Church and (theoretically) anyone can interpret the Quran and other religious scriptures anyway they like.


Not quite true. Islam's interpretation is from just one authoritative source and is frozen in time - in the life of the Prophet and the 1st four Caliphs. Subsequent innovation mostly tries to align with that. But it believes the truth is locked in that historical time-capsule.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby ramana » 19 Mar 2013 23:43

Carl, There are six authorities on the hadiths which are accepted now. The common theme is the writer interviewed a lot of the early Muslims and gathered the various hadiths and made an assessment to see which are authentic. The number gives in ~300,000 hadiths were boiled down to ~ 7000 hadiths which were authentic. And even among these there are contradictions.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Brad Goodman » 24 Mar 2013 02:19

question for learned maulans here. What inspires muslims to always advertise their faith as panacea to any one in distress? Few days back a lady at my work place was a little distressed. I had heard her story too we spoke and my response was yes things are bad but hey keep faith things will turn for better soon .... just regular stuff like every one goes thro good and bad times just keep working. Now there was this bangladeshi guy in the team who started giving her virtues of "malsi". I dont know the details but he also took her to mosque to visit and stuff.
The question I have is we as hindus or even most westeners never go around singing virtues of our faith. What is so different with ropers? I thought deep down they would be jealous of kafirs who dont have to live a suffocating and hypocrite life like them. Instead they are actively poarching people. Any insight into the line of thought?

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby mehroke » 24 Mar 2013 05:10

There is an old proverb.
"Misery loves company"
They cant get out-so they entice more people in.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Brad Goodman » 24 Mar 2013 06:30

so you mean they are psychologically deranged and turned sadistic to core

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby akashganga » 24 Mar 2013 07:05

pankajs wrote:Apologies if this has been posted before.
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Three Stages of Jihad

Kool. Stealth Jehad, Defensive Jehad, and Offensive Jehad. We should add one more jehad which is Penis Jehad to mass produce children to increase their populations in kafir majority nations. :rotfl:

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Prem » 24 Mar 2013 09:27

mehroke wrote:There is an old proverb.
"Misery loves company"
They cant get out-so they entice more people in.


One stupid jealous and retard has his nose cut by equally stoopid, jealous and extra retard . The retard started this rumor that one sees better, smell better and mind is at ease if the nose is missing from the face. Thus started the chain and nose less Moorkhas unable to smell the shit keep telling people that shit is actually made of perfume but only the people without Nose can smell it.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Brad Goodman » 24 Mar 2013 19:36

looks like does not take much for some to drop their guard

People tell me that I have become an Indian: Veena Malik



Actress Veena Malik has completely taken a desi avatar and got submerged in the colours of her Karmabhoomi. Therefore, you are not surprised when she tells you: "People tell me that I have become an Indian and I tend to agree. I have fallen in love with all things Indian!"

I love Indian festivals
I am totally fascinated with the ethnic flavours of India and especially its festivals. You know, I had got Ganapati home for the first time for a day last Ganesh Chaturthi, and it was an emotional experience, taking the Lord for visarjan. Now I'm looking forward to the amazing festival of Holi. And this time, I have learnt the tricks of the trade to evade the barrage of colours coming from my friends' pichkaris. They better watch out! I'm going to drown them in colour this time!"

Bhang time
Ask her if she has any plans to enjoy the bhang, which is an intrinsic part of the festival of colours, and pat comes the reply: "Yes, I'm going to have bhang this Holi, hopefully! And the countdown has already begun!"
:mrgreen:

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Agnimitra » 27 Mar 2013 04:00

In the wake of events such as the recent reported killing of Sheikh Ramadan al-Bouti in a masjid in Damascus, a certain predominant cultural meme comes to the surface in Islamic society. It is a meme that is in every society including our own - but Islamic society is the only one to invest it with the crown of spiritual potential in a particular way... One therefore often sees Moslem youth, even in the West, become part of the subculture of war that is anyway always there in the West:

Chris Hedges' "War is a force that gives us meaning"

"Sarajevo in the summer of 1995 came close to Dante’s inner circle of hell. The city, surrounded by Serb gunners on the heights above, was subjected to hundreds of shells a day, all crashing into an area twice the size of Central Park. Ninety-millimeter tank rounds and blasts fired from huge 155-millimeter howitzers set up a deadly rhythm of detonations.

Multiple Katyusha rockets – whooshing overhead – burst in rapid succession; they could take down a four- or five-story apartment building in seconds,
killing or wounding everyone inside. There was no running water or electricity and little to eat; most people were subsisting on a bowl of soup a day. It was possible to enter the besieged city only by driving down a dirt track on Mount Igman, one stretch directly in the line of Serb fire. The vehicles that had failed to make it lay twisted and upended in the ravine below, at times with the charred remains of their human cargo inside.

Families lived huddled in basements, and mothers, who had to make a mad dash to the common water taps set up by the United Nations, faced an excruciating choice – whether
to run through the streets with their children or leave them in a building that might be rubble when they returned.

The hurling bits of iron fragmentation from exploding shells left bodies mangled, dismembered, decapitated. The other reporters and I slipped and slid in the blood and entrails thrown out by the shell blasts, heard the groans of anguish, and were, for our pains, in the sights of Serb snipers, often just a few hundred yards away. The latest victims lay with gaping wounds untended in the corridors of the hospitals that lacked antibiotics and painkillers.

When the cease-fires broke down, there would be four to five dead a day, and a dozen wounded. It was a roulette wheel of death, a wheel of fire that knew no distinctions of rank or nationality.

By that summer, after nearly four years of fighting, forty-five foreign reporters had been killed, scores wounded. I lived – sheltered in a side room in the Holiday Inn, its front smashed and battered by shellfire – in a world bent on self-destruction,a world where lives were snuffed out at random.

...

I learned early on that war forms its own culture. The rush of battle is a potent and often lethal addiction, for war is a drug, one I ingested for many years. It is peddled by mythmakers, historians, war correspondents, filmmakers, novelists, and the state – all of whom endow it with qualities it often does possess: excitement, exoticism, power, chances to rise. above our small stations in life, and a bizarre and fantastic universe that has a grotesque and dark beauty. It dominates culture, distorts memory, corrupts language, and infects everything around it, even humor, which becomes preoccupied with the grim perversities of smut and death.

Fundamental questions about the meaning, or meaninglessness, of our place on the planet are laid bare when we watch those around us sink to the lowest depths.

War exposes the capacity for evil that lurks not far below the surface within all of us. And this is why for many war is so hard to discuss once it is over.

The enduring attraction of war is this: Even with its destruction and carnage it can give us what we long for in life. It can give us purpose, meaning, a reason for living. Only when
we are in the midst of conflict does the shallowness and vapidness of much of our lives become apparent. Trivia dominates our conversations and increasingly our airwaves.

And war is an enticing elixir. It gives us resolve, a cause. It allows us to be noble. And those who have the least meaning in their lives, the impoverished refugees in Gaza, the disenfranchised North African immigrants in France,even the legions of young who live in the splendid indolence and safety of the industrialized world, are susceptible to war’s appeal.


I have noticed that among British and American converts to Islam, they share this taste and were anyway part of the subculture of war or its effects in Western society, such as Goths, etc. before they converted.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby ramana » 27 Mar 2013 21:45

The biggiest thing to understand is that Islam is a Middle Eastern reaction to Romanisation of Christianity. Next just as Christianity it also denigrates Judaism. The Koran is replete with examples of this twin hatred. The Koran and the Hadiths are legendary elaborations of the Arab manhood/tribal myth. Just as US lumber jacks who destroyed the pristine forests of Western US, and came up with legendary lumber jack Paul Bunyan or legendary cowboy Pecos Bill so did the Arabs who suddenly became masters of the ancient Middle East!

Same way Muhammad is a legendary Arab prophet who is used to justify and Arabise the world. If you read the Koran or the ahdtish throug these prism then it becomes clear.

Once the Arabs won their victory against the declining Sassanids in Persia and Byzantines of Constantinopole and a ineffective rulers of Egypt already decimated with Greek and Roman invasions and Christianity, they need to come up with a legendary founder and dogma that empahsises their new "Choseness" and their mission to Arabise the world. And all this started after the first hundred years of the mythical hijra!

They didn't know how successful their mantra is in keeping the system alive even past the Modern age.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Agnimitra » 28 Mar 2013 05:23

^^^ ramana ji I agree that a lot of mythology has been added on, but I don't believe the existence of Prophet Mohammad is itself a myth.
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Wasn't sure whether to post this on the Islamophobia thread or here. But I have observed something - while every sect tends to disagree with other sects in every culture, I see that in Islamic social circles it is far more common for people to believe and repeat the most ridiculous, humiliating or horrific things about non-Moslems - including their own pre-Islamic ancestors. It is far more common and very easy for even 'moderate' Moslems to lightly 'joke' or ridicule some non-Moslem tradition, often in an obscene way -- and I always noted that the very same person would not take too kindly to the same kind of ridicule or obscenity directed at Islam's sacred idols. The use of ridicule and deliberate exaggerations about the horrors and injustices of non-Moslems is very, very common and prominent in Islamic society. In terms of casting the other in a horrific light, they prefer to do it in a self-directed way - 'they hate us and hurt us'. Once an Iraqi American kid told us in halaqah (Qur'an study circle) that he had heard that the long red tilak the Hindus wear on the head symbolizes the blood of Moslems.

Islam’s Outrageous Obscenities
Islamic TV personality, Abu Islam—the man who made international headlines when he insulted Christianity and tore a Bible on camera to screams of “Allahu Akbar!” and later incited Muslims to rape female protesters—unwittingly insulted Islam’s prophet Muhammad in a way that would have caused much of the Islamic world to riot and call for his death (if he was a non-Muslim).

This occurred during one of Abu Islam’s recent TV shows, which revolved around attacking Egyptian commentator and comedian Bassem Youssef, whose popular jabs frequently target Islamists, including President Morsi. In retaliation, Abu Islam spent a large segment of his show insulting Youssef. Yet, unlike the latter’s well-received jokes which are primarily based on wit and innuendo, the cleric relied on hurling ugly obscenities). Among other things, Abu Islam swore to Allah that according to Sharia law, because Youssef is a “pretty boy,” he is required to wear a niqab, or face veil, to cover himself up like a woman.

Abu Islam hurled even worse insults on the comedian, which he tried to justify by referring to the teachings of Islam. He told Muslim viewers who would condemn his use of vile language, “Shame on you Muslims; learn your religion well. The Koran itself curses them, curses the likes of Bassem Youssef, those before him and after him.”

He went on to give examples, quoting verses Koran verses that refer to infidels as “dogs,” “donkeys,” and “cattle.” “Are these curses or not?” asked the cleric. “Well, it’s your lord who curses, who insults…. Cursing and insulting is from Allah almighty, praise and glory to him.”

Next Abu Islam moved to the Sunna—along with the Koran, the second pillar of Sunni Islam, the words, deeds, and recommendations of Islam’s prophet, Muhammad, and his companions as documented in hadiths. Said Abu Islam:

Now hear the words that the prophet counsels me to use against people like you [Bassem Youssef]. He tells me to tell you “Bite your father’s penis, and do not whitewash.” In other words, I’m supposed to tell you to go bite your father’s male member, but I’m supposed to use the real word [“penis”] without whitewashing. The prophet orders me to mention your father’s male member, but without whitewashing [instead of saying “male member” he should say “penis”]. You see how well-mannered I am—I cannot even bring myself to use the words the prophet commanded me to use on you. I just can’t do it!

As for Muhammad’s closest companions, he quoted Abu Bakr, Islam’s first “righteous caliph,” telling someone, “Go suck on al-Lat’s clitoris!” Al-Lat was a pre-Islamic goddess of Mecca, whose image was subsequently destroyed on Muhammad’s orders.

When Abu Sufyan finally converted to Islam and asked Muhammad what he should do about the large idol statue of al-Uzza, another pre-Islamic female goddess of Arabia, Islam’s second “righteous caliph,” Omar al-Khittab, responded, “Go take a sh*t on it!”

Abu Islam is not the only popular Muslim cleric to justify his foul mouth by referring to Islam and its founders. Here, for example, is popular Sheikh al-Huwaini—who likens the face of women to their vulvas—also quoting and explaining the “Bite your father’s penis” hadith in graphic detail.

Likewise, Al Azhar graduate and professor of Islamic interpretation Sheikh Abdullah Badr is also on record trying to justify his use of foul language by referring to the same hadiths (he got in trouble when he publicly referred to a popular Egyptian actress as a “whore.”) Ironically, he is also the same sheikh who publicly swore to Allah to cut the tongue out of the mouth of anyone who insults Islam and its Sharia.

As a more moderate cleric pointed out in a TV show dealing with Sheikh Badr’s claims that the prophet and his companions were cursers and insulters, “If one of Islam’s opponents made such assertions, the whole world would have stood up in objection to such words.”

Indeed, while non-Muslim YouTube videos portraying Muhammad as warlord prompt riots, deaths, and groveling from Western politicians, Muslim portrayals of the prophet and his companions as vulgar and foul-mouthed pass in silence.

Which leads to the greatest irony of all—a sort of “strike back” from the God of the Bible: the same Abu Islam who tore and desecrated the Bible, unwittingly went on to tear into and desecrate the image of his beloved prophet Muhammad. Recall that, after he quoted Muhammad’s words “Bite your father’s penis, and do not whitewash,” Abu Islam insisted that he could not bring himself to say “penis,” but did whitewash, constantly using the word “male private member.” As he put it: “You see how well-mannered I am—I cannot even bring myself to use the words the prophet commanded me to use on you. I just can’t do it!”

The meaning of this is clear: the foul-mouthed, rape-advocating, Bible-tearing Muslim cleric, Abu Islam, actually sees himself as more moral and “well-mannered” than his prophet.

Is this not a greater insult to Muhammad than a movie made by non-Muslims who may be expected to be irreverent?

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby RajeshA » 28 Mar 2013 15:14

The 3 Islamic Sacrifices

Carl ji,

thanks for pointing out the built-in endorsement to obscenity in Islam.

My understanding of Islam is that in society there are certain sacrifices one has to make to Islam:

  1. First Sacrifice - Intellect: It is not simply a question of not questioning the tenets of Islam, for all that is there. So it is a sacrifice not only of freedom of thought, but really a sacrifice of intellect itself. It encompasses a far greater level of imposed aversion to education, especially in cultural history of the world and natural sciences. As such there are no restrictions against applied sciences or technology or language, but the general absence of enthusiasm for knowledge also affects these fields. Often it is not a direct aversion to knowledge, but a much different emphasis and priorities for life. Even if one proceeds to acquire knowledge it has to be done through the Islamic filter and often it is done keeping the "cause" in mind. The ritual, social, political and historical spheres are endeavor are so all-encompassing that there is little room left for knowledge. Almost all debate takes place from solely these prisms.

  2. Second Sacrifice - Free Will: There are some who say that Free Will is itself a myth. I think it is a matter of gradation, and for points of interest for the individual it sometimes become a boolean value - either he may do it or he may not. Often people choose not to make certain decisions into test cases for if one is not allowed to follow one's desire it can lead to dissatisfaction, so people allow themselves to be conditioned to stay within the limitations of the system. But every system irrespective of authoritarianism and determinism still retains an amount of arbitrariness due to which sometimes people do get tempted to test their limits. So even in the dark corners of authoritarianism, there are sparks of Free Will.

    Limits are put in place either due to law, due to doctrine or due to rationale of social stability. In Islam, perhaps law and doctrine collapse into one. However if a rival social system can show an ideal level of social stability despite giving its members a far higher level of freedom, then the excuse of social stability collapses. Then only doctrine remains as an excuse but not its application - social stability. So in an environment of competitive doctrines, the one which provides higher level of social stability with lesser level of restrictions on individual freedoms can be considered the winner, however as often is the case, a lack of statistics makes everything foggy.

    Coming back to 'Free Will', allowing oneself to be conditioned to accept a higher level of restrictions of individual freedoms with respect to say another society which offers a similar or higher level of social stability is indeed a sacrifice of 'Free Will'!

    In Islam however there are restrictions but there are also avenues of 'liberation', where one is allowed full freedom to impose one's (assumed) will, often of aggression and entitlement, onto another who does not belong to the 'brotherhood'.

    Perhaps the most glaring restriction on individual liberty is death for apostasy.

  3. Third Sacrifice - Conscience: This in fact is the most important of sacrifices. Every human in fact has the innate ability to empathize with another human being for the mind is able to project the situation afflicting the other onto oneself, i.e. until one becomes hardened by the repetitiveness of the situation and it stops registering strongly. But if this is not the case one has a natural inclination for empathy and sympathy. A higher form of this phenomenon is mercy. It is the innate ability not to want to cause harm to the others. So basically empathy and mercy are forces of human nature which could induce one to act against one's imposed programming, e.g. religious brainwashing. So emotions like empathy and mercy are considered a threat to the doctrine. And if they are to be shown, it has to be done while remaining within the confines of Islam, i.e. one can show empathy to fellow Muslims and work in Dawa, or one comes to another Muslim's help, or mercy is shown to a Kafir only after he recites the Shahādah and submits to Islam.

    As such often in Islam people are exhorted to purge these emotions. One would notice that even in childhood, children are encouraged to watch on as animals are halaaled, especially on Eid. Also public stoning or lynching are spectacles people are encouraged to visit and partake in. It is also one reason why the reaction of Muslims to non-Muslims can be so violent, sometimes for the most minor of faults. Aggressiveness becomes a means to purge empathy and mercy.

    Basically every time a Muslim does something totally horrifying e.g. the case of the Saudi cleric sexually brutalizing his daughter to death, he is allowed to explain it off as it being for reasons of his faith. He is allowed to "offer his deed as a sacrifice for Islam"! Basically one would find example after example where deeds other would consider horrible are explained off as being for Islam's glory and in its cause. The British Pakistanis involved in the Rochdale sex trafficking gang would have similarly no compunctions in what they did. They do not need to have a guilty conscience. The Dark Knight killer James Holmes converted to Islam in prison so that he does not have to face any guilty conscience.

    Coming to your wonderful example: "Islam’s Outrageous Obscenities", one notices how even Abu Islam finds it difficult to live up to demands of sacrifice instituted in Islam. He has difficulty pronouncing, “Bite your father’s penis, and do not whitewash.” It follows the demands of Islam to make the sacrifice of one's conscience. For only when one can make this ultimate sacrifice, can Islam trust the Muslim that he would abide by his allegiance to Muhammad and not let his conscience come in the way!

If one will, one can call these as Islamic rights of passage or 'The 3 Islamic Yajnas'.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby akashganga » 28 Mar 2013 19:39

RajeshA wrote:The 3 Islamic Sacrifices

Carl ji,

thanks for pointing out the built-in endorsement to obscenity in Islam.

My understanding of Islam is that in society there are certain sacrifices one has to make to Islam:
..
..


Well said. The fundamental problem with islam is that they are brainwashed to look for answer in Koran/Hadith for answers. They are not allowed to look within themselves for answers. Unfortunately their holy book has lots of barbaric happenings from the 7th century arabia. Every time they talk about their prophet they say peace be upon him. They never say peace for everyone.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby RamaY » 28 Mar 2013 19:48

ooops Sorry!
Last edited by RamaY on 28 Mar 2013 20:02, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby RajeshA » 28 Mar 2013 19:59

Please always keep the limitations posed by the first post in mind! Thank you!

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby member_19686 » 28 Mar 2013 22:30

Islam can become a cocaine. It makes you high. You go to that mosque and you get high. And when you get high everything that happens is Allah's will.

- Indonesian official to V.S. Naipaul, Among the Believers, 1981

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Agnimitra » 29 Mar 2013 00:08

Surasena wrote:Islam can become a cocaine. It makes you high. You go to that mosque and you get high. And when you get high everything that happens is Allah's will.

- Indonesian official to V.S. Naipaul, Among the Believers, 1981

Its funny I was thinking about just this point recently. Added to RajeshA ji's post about "sacrificing" the intellect and conscience, etc., its making sense. There is a strange behavior in Moslem society w.r.t the feeling of shared commonality with non-Moslems, friendship with them, honesty and acknowledging differences. I have Pakistani friends - pious Moslems - who are very friendly towards Indians in a genuine sense. Yet they subscribe to the two-nation theory, which they don't expect the unfaithful to understand, because it is a matter of 'destiny' as willed by the Creator.

Of late I have been spending time with some Pakistani friends on a one-to-one basis, one of whom was getting to hang out with 'desi' company after a long time. Spending time with him brought to mind very starkly certain things I have noted for a long time among Moslems in general. This friend, like several other Moslem friends of mine (Indian, Pakistani, Middle Eastern) was a pious person from a high family. He was a straight talker and said what was on his mind. In that sense, he was very 'honest' and a reliable friend - he said what he thought and did what he said. The interesting thing for me to observe, however, was how that mind itself produced things due to its own internal partitions.

He was pious, and tried his best to observe all restrictions regarding purity and perform all obligatory duties. He wasn't an "ayyaash" with kafirs/kafirahs either (and he often pointed out with sadness how they, and other non-pious Moslems, were "ayyaash" and did not follow the sunnat), and tried always to set a self-conscious example of uprightness, cleanliness, warm hospitality and generosity. He was pious, yet he was also fun-loving and 'moderate'. For instance he admitted openly that he was helplessly addicted to music - though he respected those who disapproved of it.

He was very talkative - press the right button about a known passion or fear and he would talk a lot about it...usually the exact same things that is part of indoctrination from known sources. He would repeat that indoctrination with the appropriate passion and mood of excitement and optimism, or disapproval and moral superiority. E.g. he spent time in the Pak defence forces and then had to leave. So a lot of that ideology of TSP, Jinnah's great personality, Allama 1Ball and other Zaid Hamid fetishes are evident. Among Urdu writers his mother told him not to read Sa'adat Hassan Manto because he had said a lot of "beyhoodah" things. His mom also discouraged speaking Punjabi because 'Punjabi badtameezon ki zubaan hoti hai', he explained with a chuckle - he still loves Punjabi culture and often breaks out into a Punjabi phrase or two...but clearly the language is a naughty, humorously rustic or colloquial spice to the main Urdu course. He was proud to say pretty early that he had studied Arabic from a young age and could follow a conversation in some dialects. He is totally invested in the ideology of TSP, and is a passionate supporter of ImDaDim. Yet he is very friendly with Indians and points out how his hero Im gets a lot of support and donations from Indians.

He sometimes laments that South Asians here stick to their own linguistic groups instead of always intermingling and being 'one'. I told him we don't consider that necessarily a bad thing in India, regional languages and cultures have their own sub-identities and we even encourage those identities because they don't conflict with our identity as Indians, and everyone often comes together for different occasions. But he couldn't see any logic in that and wondered with shame what the goras must be thinking when they see us South Asians separated into groups. At another time, he expressed pain and disapproval for the anti-Christian and anti-Shi'a pogroms in TSP, but later also explained to me why Shi'ism is shirk. Yet, he also told me that he disapproves of Salafi/Wahabi types who are takfiris, and even expressed concern that he had met Indian Moslems from Hyderabad (AP) who were very Salafi and fanatical.

He had clear-cut ideas about everything - even about being 'moderate'. There is no sense of, or capacity for, or comfort with, ambiguity. And while he had such clear-cut ideas like this, he said that his father had always advised him not to get into arguments over religious matters unless one has deep knowledge. And since he is not an 'aalim and does not have deep knowledge, he doesn't get into arguments after stating his beliefs and making known differences. But he also wasn't making any special effort to understand others and gain knowledge, because there was so much to learn within Islam itself, that it could take one's whole life. Yet he was appreciative of good things in others: E.g. he loves the work ethics of Americans, and said that apart from the fact that they had not read the kalimah and did not follow the sunnah, they were currently better Moslems than Pakistanis. He would also sadly express disapproval for their shortcomings, the fact that America is controlled by Jews (who are very intelligent), and also for similar problems in India, such as the crores of bhooke-nange people we call shoodars while we watch saas-bahu teleserials where people talk of lakhs of rupees (unlike Pakistani teleserials which capture reality - and the Pakistani media which has been widely rated by even Americans as the "most vibrant media" in the world). I would always acknowledge all Indian shortcomings, and also acknowledge that I did find Pakistani telefilms to be very good, though I have neither watched Paki nor Indian teleserials. Like this, the conversation contained so many nuggets that are familiar to most here on BRF.

In general he was very friendly towards Indians and said we were the same people, but flatly expressed no desire to become one country again and reverse partition...shaking his head compassionately to indicate that I wouldn't be able to understand the reasons and significance of Pakistan. It was something deep and beyond my understanding, he seemed to think, because I did not share the faith and its structures. He was genuinely concerned that I would misunderstand his take on this and feel hurt by it, and he wanted to allay those negative feelings by talking about the great positives of Islam and Pakistan's separate destiny.

Among the pious Moslems:
1. At a personal level, they say what they think and generally do what they say.
2. But there is an obsession with image and "us versus them".
3. They are friendly at a personal level, and they are NOT consciously pretending it.
4. But they "know" that what those who do not share the faith don't understand is that there is a supernatural force that moves history, and they cannot disobey that.

Thus, they are 'honest' and friendly in terms of saying what they think and doing what they say, but they frankly cannot be apologetic for what has been prophesied. There is something strange with that 'honesty '. It contains no part of that introspection in the sense of drg-drshya viveka. Any 'introspection' is very superficial, about who is ayyash and makkaar, and who isn't.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Agnimitra » 29 Mar 2013 00:10

A good recent example of the overuse of ridicule, obscenity and demonization of the other:



Egyptian Islamist Politician: The Founders of America Would Eat the Flesh of the native Indians.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Prem » 29 Mar 2013 01:02

Sacrifices are made for good cause only, the above Teen are not sacrifices but the founding pillars of the Deen. Now you know why they call is final, nothing worth humanity left afterward. These three are not the conditions to join the group but the grouping of the specimen with these 3 Gunas or lack of it. Now we know why there is no intellectual tradition in Islam, free will condomed as Bidda and till now have not produced a single genuine conscience objector in last one and half hajar saal.M ka Chella, Na koi Gandhi Na koi Mandela. Naa hua Einstein, naa Koi Bose .All it produced is Big Gobar Ka Phose: Shikwa Ikball ka, Kanhi Ootha Matt Dena , accha hai ki jannat Khwabo mey, parre rahe Behosh.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby RajeshA » 29 Mar 2013 15:40

Jhujar ji,

I must say, that is very good poetry. Ershad!

Jhujar wrote:M. ka Chella,
Na koi Gandhi Na koi Mandela.
Naa hua Einstein, naa Koi Bose.
All it produced is Big Gobar Ka Phose:
Shikwa Ikball ka; Kanhi Ootha Matt Dena,
Accha hai ki Jannat ke Khwabo mey, parre rahe Behosh!

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby RajeshA » 29 Mar 2013 16:56

Carl wrote:Thus, they are 'honest' and friendly in terms of saying what they think and doing what they say, but they frankly cannot be apologetic for what has been prophesied. There is something strange with that 'honesty '. It contains no part of that introspection in the sense of drg-drshya viveka. Any 'introspection' is very superficial, about who is ayyash and makkaar, and who isn't.


Carl ji,

Basically a community would continue to use certain categories for discourse which come from within its own ideological framework. Terms like "ayyash", "makkar", etc. originate in their own religious framework.

Normally one is not driven to think in other categories external to one's language, for after all one's thoughts are often prisoners of the language we use to express them. With learning new terms we expand our universe! But knowledge of new terms in itself does not cause "introspection" or "cognitive dissonance" for that matter. It is the emotionality generated by new terms that causes people to deal with those terms.

So even as Islamics learn new terminology in a different language or are confronted with new terms, they can always choose to ignore these. Islamics confronted with say Western philosophy, value systems, etc. can either ignore these or can overwhelm and conquer these. Often ridicule, accusations of hypocrisy, projections of undesirable consequences, deliberate misinterpretation, distortions through unrelated concepts, etc. are used to undermine the strength of the concepts and categories of other ideological traditions. It is not Purva Paksha as we understand it, but a planned discrediting that is undertaken.

Be as it may, Islam too is forced to deal with concepts and categories originating in other ideological systems even if it is for discrediting them. However this too creates an opening for engagement, as it allows one to provide counter-arguments.

The emotionality resulting with introduction of various terms can be increased if it is shown that these terms could challenge the tenets of Islam or Islamic society. The higher the emotionality, less is the chance that a category would be ignored.

As such it is possible to introduce various concepts and categories from outside Islam into the Islamic discourse. For example Pakistani society has to deal with "secularism". Indian Muslims too deal with "secularism" again in their own way! But basically it is a term originating outside the realm of Islam.

Secularism is e.g. a threat to Pakistani Islam because it demands a separation of religion and politics which runs totally counter to the Islamic system which sees a unified system of religion and state. In fact in Islam it is the spiritual aspect which is a secondary adjunct to the primary aspect - the political. So there can be no secularism. But mostly "secularism" in Pakistan is also more of an intellectual issue than a burning political issue, as any "secularists" in Pakistan have no power.

In India, for Indian Muslims "secularism" means something totally different. It means that the state would not favor the majority community, the founding civilization of the Rashtra, and thus give Islam a broad leeway to flourish, even as on the ground level, in electoral politics, Islamic society would continue to treat politics as a natural extension of their religion.

"Secularism" however as we see from Pakistan, is more of a challenge, which is already successfully vanquished, at a political level but not at doctrinal level. It was just an example.

But what is to say of challenges which are at a doctrinal level?! As of now there are only some protestations here and there - e.g. with respect to Jihad, equality for women, human rights, etc. but all of these are also sociopolitical challenges! One could consider "evolution" to be a challenge for Islam at doctrinal level, but here Islam has support from other religions like Christianity, Judaism, etc. and in a society with too little science, the society would also not feel threatened by something which is mostly discussed in remote academic and intellectual circles.

Continued here!

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby RajeshA » 29 Mar 2013 19:49

By Muqtedar Khan
Islam, Hinduism and Truth

An Indian Muslims from Hyderabad working in US writes on Islam.

Glocal Eye: His Blog

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby ramana » 29 Mar 2013 19:51

An Algerian writes:


Mohamed Habib-Zahmani, "The End of Islamism"


2013 | ASIN: B00BKP671K | 324 pages |

In the first half of the 20th century, the emergence of the Islamist (or Islamic then) movement was truly a historical event. It had an intrinsic ability to change its surrounding world; yet the movement went relatively unnoticed. Today not a single day passes without an Islamist organization being in the headlines in one way or another. But despite its permanent presence in the media, Islamism is historically irrelevant and socially impotent.

The Islamist movement today looks rather like a discarded plastic bag carried away by the winds of political events, flying in a chaotic trail towards nowhere. Following a long and exhausting ideological kermis, the Islamist bag is carried away in empty streets with other ideological rubbish of the last century... nothing left but disenchantment and hangover. Whereas the West is entering the post-democratic society –a terrifying police state of total surveillance and control; we are already in the post-Islamist era.

The real failure is not being out of government, but when a social movement loses its soul and its historical purpose. All losses and failures are reversible except the loss of meaning. The real crisis of the Islamist movement is not therefore a question of organizational strength or weakness. Sometimes alienation is creative; and political weakness cultivates inner strength. The Islamist crisis is not of a quantifiable order; it touches the essence of the movement. The hyper-politicization of the latter has been accompanied by loss of historical meaning, ethical corrosion, creative impotence, and intellectual dead-end... the death has been total.

The Islamist movement was a cycle, and the cycle reached its end in the 1990s –although the downfall had started well before. It will continue making noise; it might even become part of the political establishment in some countries; but certainly it will not be the driving force of civilizational change. Islamism would continue making events but it will not produce history.

This book provides an under-surface view, which is more crucial for understanding Islamism than the political bubbling above the surface. It examines its major mental and cultural components, and its social evolution. In other words, this is a postmortem examination of the Islamist movement that focuses on the roots of the malaise, rather than the ‘malaise in action’. The main purpose of the book is neither guiding nor attacking, it is about gaining an overall and complete understanding of what was until recently the biggest social movement in the world.

The book is divided into five chapters. The three middle chapters constitute the core of the postmortem. The latter shows that Islamism was not a truly religious phenomenon but a by-product of the western culture. “Islamic state” might be its motto, but modernity has been its main quest. It was also the by-product of the west by being a nationalist reaction. More generally, Islamism would not have emerged had the west (as we know it) not existed. This means that Islamism doesn’t represent a cultural continuity in Muslim societies; it is rather a historical rupture. In this respect, there is no fundamental difference between Islamists and secularists (in the Muslim world) despite their continuing political and ideological conflicts. Both are cultural ruptures; both are by-products of the west, in different ways though.

This book is a cliché-free, ideology-free and unbiased attempt to understand Islamism. It provides new ways of looking at it. The other originality of the book is that, unlike other studies on the subject, it is not placed in a western or secular framework of analysis. Reason and Religion, supported by the author’s direct observations in different countries, are the bases of the book.

Without being a typical Islamist, the author actively sympathized with the Islamist idea during school and university years throughout the 1980s in his native Algeria. His Islamist phase ended in 1994/95.


Any of you recall my critique of "Arab Nationalism and Islamist Fundamentalism" in 2005 in Paso Robles!!!

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Brad Goodman » 29 Mar 2013 23:14

question for maulanas? What is the obsession with friday afternoon namaz? Why is every muslim male so obligated to make it a point to goto mosque on friday afternoon. Its a nuisence to say the least when all muslim team members are missing from 1:00 PM - 2:00 Pm and the way they conduct they make you feel guilty if you have any meetings set at that time.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Prem » 29 Mar 2013 23:26

RajeshA wrote:By Muqtedar Khan
Islam, Hinduism and Truth
An Indian Muslims from Hyderabad working in US writes on Islam.

Underhand legitimacy to the Illegtimate
He seeks to validate his own religious theory using Indian traditions. Indians cannot be burdened and helf back from entering new era because few fond of living medieval life happened to live there. How deftly he introduced Muhamamd in the guise of Dharmaraja.Islam gave India mortal wound and if Indian civilization have survived and now emerging back on global scene, its thanks to sacrifics made by the millions who died resisting , protecting its from the babrbarians and imperialists. Indian system must be based on Indian soil based value system, not imported from Arabia or Vatican. No piggy back ridding for those who carry the knife used in stabing Mother Indian for over many centuires.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Agnimitra » 29 Mar 2013 23:34

Brad Goodman,

Congregational Jumu'ah prayers for Dhuhr (noon prayer) are considered obligatory in most madhabs of Sunni Islam. Offering salaat (namaz) along with fellow Moslems is always considered better and it brings more barakah (blessings), no matter which day of week or time of day. But Friday Dhuhr is considered obligatory, as long as a mosque exists within a reasonable distance. Even if not designated obligatory by any madhab, it is definitely sunnah (tradition from Prophet's time and the first 4 Caliphs).

In some madhhabs, missing Friday prayers at the local mosque 3 times in a row means one has to take shahadah (oath of loyalty to the Mohammedan credo) once again in front of witnesses in order to be considered a Moslem in good standing.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby RajeshA » 29 Mar 2013 23:35

Brad Goodman ji,

what is the worth of an ant or bee drone? It is all a derivation of its worth to the collective!

In Science Fiction, there are actually many such collectives - The Borg of Star Trek, The Ori of Stargate, Universal Church of Truth of Marvel Universe, etc.

In Islam everybody is pushed to show how much each Muslim loves Islam and Muhammad. Show of Love of Allah/Muhammad is all that Islam is all about. This "Love" is not a result of conviction in the doctrine, but rather an essential obligation on the Muslim. If the Muslim does not come forward with an open display of love, he loses respect and trust in society. Everybody is then asked to move away from him. That is why every now and then each Muslim has to come forward and make a demonstration of his undying love.

One hears how Rehman Malik would himself go and kill somebody or the other who humiliates Islam. Nobody is really excused from this obligation.

Visit to the Mosque is the most public way of demonstrating one's piety, one's love for Islam.

As far as making others feel guilty for not allowing them to do this obeisance, that is just the natural entitlement one sees everywhere.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby RajeshA » 30 Mar 2013 01:17

Actually in order to ensure this model of all drones, faith batteries to nourish the ideology, the mechanism used is quite simple. If one has a few wolves among a herd of dogs who prod the dog here and there to show obedience to a focal point - say to heed the call of the mosque, then everybody starts herding the others in society to do likewise.

One reason is that it allows a dog to feel like a wolf and thus need not feel the burden of shame that he was coerced. Secondly each feels why must he be the only one who has to undertake an obligation, others should also share this obligation with him!

In this way, a small number of wolves can in fact effect a whole society to heed an obligation.

One fundamental requirement for such a model is egalitarianism however - a dog must be allowed to feel like a wolf. Otherwise the model does not work. It would not function in say a society which has formalized labelled social divisions like e.g. the Hindu Samaj.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby member_23629 » 30 Mar 2013 21:52

Chasing a Mirage: The Tragic Illusion of an Islamic State.
Award-winning book by Canadian writer Tarek Fatah on the shallowness of the Islamist Agenda for an Islamic State that is the driving force behind today's Islamist movements ranging from the Muslim Brotherhood to the Taliban, Al-Qaeda and the numerous North American fronts of these jihadi movements.


Click on the link to read the book online.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby ramana » 31 Mar 2013 20:26

Bob Schieffer of CBS News on his show Face the Nation said;



Forces that shape human events


March 31, 2013 10:57 AM



Schieffer on the forces that shape human events


By
Bob Schieffer

(CBS News)

(CBS News) I have been a working reporter for more than half a century, and the other day someone asked me what all those years had taught me.

What I've learned, I think, and am convinced, is there are four powerful forces in the world, and human events come down to which one prevails.

Those forces are love, knowledge, ignorance and ha
te.

There is no more powerful force than love -- a parent's love for a child may be the most powerful force of human nature.

Yet hate is also powerful, and has always been with us. I have never quite come to terms with how Hitler could have come to power, not hundreds of years ago but in my lifetime. How did civilized people let that happen?

What I do know is that hate is the product of ignorance and intolerance. Love is strengthened by knowledge.

On this weekend, which is a time of reflection for so many on the purpose of life, I recall what the historian Will Durant once wrote: "Barbarism, like the jungle, does not die, but only retreats behind the barriers that civilization has thrown up against it, and waits there always to reclaim that which civilization has taken from it."


Knowledge, tolerance and understanding are civilization's barriers, and they remain in place only so long as the forces of good are there to maintain them.





I think Islam provides the sanctuaries in the form of kabila or gathering/barriers where these forces can retreat and sally forth to ravage civilization.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Agnimitra » 05 Apr 2013 01:17

"Haroon Yahya" is a pseudonym used by a Turkish author or group of authors that has published numerous glossy Islamist books over the last couple of decades. Their books are popular across the Moslem world, from Bangladesh to Western Moslems. One theme they talk about a lot is Mahdi. Here's a Turkish documentary clip with some interesting insights into typical ways of thinking and typical conversational themes in Moslem circles.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_ezZQNsjRo

Not really sure what the dolled up Oiropeanized females are meant for on the set.
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby ramana » 05 Apr 2013 01:28

Isnt Mahdi a Shia concept? And what are the TUrks talking about Mahdi for? Or are these Shia Turks like those who ended up in Deccan?

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Agnimitra » 05 Apr 2013 01:33

^^ ramana ji, Mahdi is not only a Shi'a concept! It is there in all Islam. Its just that in Shi'ism the Imam e Zaman (last Imam in occultation) is a very central theme.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby RajeshA » 05 Apr 2013 01:35

Carl wrote:Not really sure what the dolled up Oiropeanized females are meant for on the set.


Well Islam is the religion of Oirope and all that ...! It is a totally sexy and cool religion! And liberalism and women's emancipation are its hallmarks.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby Prem » 05 Apr 2013 01:43

RajeshA wrote:
Carl wrote:Not really sure what the dolled up Oiropeanized females are meant for on the set.

Well Islam is the religion of Oirope and all that ...! It is a totally sexy and cool religion! And liberalism and women's emancipation are its hallmarks.


The Bimbos are the symbo of the the coming together of Oir-Open and Urinasian Crescents. Maah- Dii Man will need that V sign to descend and rule on earth.

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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby member_22872 » 05 Apr 2013 01:46

^^^ Interesting that the program is about Islam, but they have beautiful babes on display that too with some cosmetics done. Couple of his programs that I saw now on youtube too have these sculptured babes on display. Why this fascination for vanity when 72 are waiting beyond life?
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Re: Understanding Islamic Society

Postby ramana » 05 Apr 2013 01:48

Carl,

Oh! Yes Sudan was the last claim of Mahdi sighting. That led to the Battle of Omdurman.

Have you read Green Mantle a pot boiler by John Buchan about a WWI plot by the Germans to give a Mahdi figure to make them rebel?


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