Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

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Sanjay
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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby Sanjay » 03 Jan 2013 03:41

At the end of the day, get the conviction rate up. Speed up the trials.

SaiK - do you mean if they escaped from police custody ? Before I answer, let me know what you are trying to get at.

SaiK
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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby SaiK » 03 Jan 2013 04:09

Do not know their criminal history or convictions.

What I am saying is if they are not convicted, it does not mean they have not committed any crime. So, there exists "criminal nature" in these people [nexus-gangs-leading all the way to some MLA/MP-cop-perhaps paki, et al] which must be investigated to the core.

Sanjay
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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby Sanjay » 03 Jan 2013 05:41

Legally it kind of does ! Innocent until proven guilty and all that. It be comes a post-event issue.

To expect even a diligent employer to do that might be much before employing them.

However, if any suggestion of evidence exists of the same, the police must investigate this angle. In that respect you are correct.

On the other hand, I would like to unfortunately state that this type of evil need not have a link to gangs, politics or anything.

We have to accept that there is a section of Indian men (as is the case in any country) that is criminal.

What is disturbing is not so much the rape issue (although that is bad enough) but the casual sexual harassment and molestation that women endure.

Can anyone tell me if Delhi is particularly bad and other areas are better in this respect or is it a nationwide scandal ?

There is one thing I would like to add - there are things we can learn from the West.

Despite the conviction rate being as low as it is, victims are treated with a bit more care, sensitivity and respect. This was not always the case and the improvements they have made have eased the trauma for the victims.

Also, laws against casual harassment are more effectively enforced so despite problems, women do feel safer to use public transport (for example) in the West.

That being said, the stark fact is the more sensitive treatment of rape victims and an apparently more responsive police force makes the abysmal conviction rate all the more surprising.

Maybe the whole process sugar-coats failure ?

The sad thing about this poor girl's death is the lack of global introspection. Here in Trinidad despite the press portraying the people's movement as a positive, anti-Indian racists hijacked the comments section to engage in India-bashing (not to mention the flurry of racist diatribes in the Western newspapers).

However, we have nothing to be proud of here. About 1 rape in 9 is reputedly reported and we had 1020 sexual offences (rape and incest included) in 2012. This in a population of 1.3 million. Our conviction rate on reported offences of this nature hovers between 1 and 3%.

http://www.trinidadexpress.com/woman-ma ... 99069.html

I had the experience of being involved in a case dealing with the rape/ sexual assault of a 14 year old girl with Downs Syndrome. She was uncommunicative and the police refused to get an interpreter. They never charged the perpetrator.

In addition, the perpetrator was a 16 year old relative who then offered the girl's family money to drop the private prosecution they initiated.

What was the most disgusting part of this was the defence lawyer - the nephew of a then serving judge - showing off photographs of the girl indicating that she consented.

In the end, the case was dismissed and the perpetrator went on to join the Fire Service.

Who are we to preach to anyone about rape or any other sexual offence ? Yet we do.
Last edited by Sanjay on 03 Jan 2013 06:38, edited 1 time in total.

deepan gill
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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby deepan gill » 03 Jan 2013 06:28

I don't know what it is about this case that has stood out among countless other horrible crimes. These things are still happening, even a one year old girl was thrown off from the roof by her father. But there is something about this case.

I forgot the name of the market in New Delhi, but I actually saw with my own eyes are ears, dirty remarks against females that were accompanied with men, in broad day light. I brush it aside as rowdiness.

Sexual overtones are all over India selling products, from hair oil to car batteries. Well, I brush that aside since there is no panel to govern advertisement and commercials in India. This panel consists of "civil society" self declared know it all.

I saw the children in New Delhi specifically New Delhi where so called neo-middle class push their children to be aggressive, both physically and verbally. Shit, F, such words do not attract any discipline nor reaction from their parents. I sensed that aggressiveness is seen as western I guess. I brushed it aside as lack of parenting. How would I have known, I didn't have my Arihant then.

I also experienced a type of social breakdown of family values in India. Example, Valentine Day. I see a pressure to have a boy friend, girl friend. And then you have a self styled righteous brigade that went around beating up couples. This was wrong also. Clearly rights of a citizen are being violated by few and many. Here in US, Steven Baldwin protested an Adult Store in his neighborhood. When nothing happened, he decided to sit in his car and take pictures of people visiting this store. Perfectly within the law and the store is no longer there. Thus, Indians lack civility. They think by sticks you can bring a change. It will never happen.

Crowd in India is an excuse to unleash the animal inside us. Rioting, burning buses, cars etc. I wonder how many incidents of harassment took place during protests at India Gate?

Now lets come to Indian mentality and remember that cop or that politician did not cross the border and took this job, he/she is product of the society that you are in. One question to Indians, do you think a prostitute can be raped or file a complaint of rape? Society in India needs to change and it will change by what we teach our children.

Now lets talk about the law or the system as we call it. We as Indians are proud of our Constitution, we are proud as men, women in olive uniform take oath to it to protect us. However, has anyone read this document? Do we know the background to this document? Our Constitution is nothing but mixture of French, US, English and Irish Constitutions. We took their laws and somehow incorporated them to solve our problems. We always wonder why is it that law seems to work in the west but not India. Well here is the answer

1] People in the West respect law. They respect authority and demand an order in society.
2] Law in the West has an end point. Example, Supreme Court. This court decides if law was unconstitutional or not. Beyond this is verdict of god, period.

This #2 is lacking in India. We do not trust politicians who make the laws. Now if we challenge the law in Supreme Court, the politicians do not trust the court so even if the law is rejected by the court, Parliament will pass an Amendment and it becomes the law.

So in the spirit of the countless unheard and silent victims in India, I am sorry. Death penalty in this case will not end your everyday battle on the streets of India. You are open prey. My only advise is to use the only weapon you have, vote, and vote for an individual and not a party. Demand that your interests are made an election issue. The media will play you like a circus animal, the so-called civil society will use you only to gain media coverage. None of these two have done anything for past 60 years. May god with you.

Ending my rage and counting the days before Indian media gets a new story to chase.

SaiK
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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby SaiK » 03 Jan 2013 06:43

We need to a list of prioritized items. What is unique in this case (per my understanding reading so far), is that it has gang rape, murder, plus intention to show the world how cruel they can be by pulling out the intestine and playing with it. That is just not murder.. but real monster who has no business to being alive in this Earth.

Of course, the other rapes and murder is sidelined here because of Cops+Courts+Politics, and not because of the intention to be ignored. People are being disgusted with various crimes, and those crimes that gets shade lower priority should not be considered as less important, but within the zone of crime, dealt with severely and punished, within the critical period of time.

The court system is pathetic, and as pathetic as Cops, and their security setup. It is also not something new about Cops and their relationship with Babooze. Rowdies+Cops+Babooze makes an evil bunch is more monsterilla than that juvenile guy. I am only ashamed that we billion planet can't control this crap out of this place, having a history of dharma+karma and what not.

Get the act straight, and pull up the sleeves. Get those extraneous elements out of the living space. By this, we can change all the three groups of evil in one shot. Cops, Politics and Criminals. Black money markets like RE and other areas are other strong point for this evil group setup. Smash that as well.

This handle is enough to start a bigger wave than Ramdev or Hazare can do. They both become nothing, when a billion planet raises up for corrections.

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby ramana » 03 Jan 2013 06:56

Sanjay, What do you think of IPC reform posted in the other solutions thread.

Apparently by mixing lesser and more egregious crimes the defendants are getting away.

viewtopic.php?p=1386604#p1386604

krisna
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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby krisna » 03 Jan 2013 07:07

One of the crucial aspects being neglected in all these are -

1) understaffed police forces
2) inadequate representation of women in law and order
3) understaffed lawyers and courts for a huge country like India with over 1 billion people.

For the conviction rates to go up, there should be more personnel and technology to go hand in hand to improve the conviction.

Supreme court in 2006 in a landmark judgement asked all the govts to implement the police force reforms.
None of them complied. Again in october 2012, supreme court has asked the govts again about the status of the implementation.
Amongst the state govts, TN force has done the maximum relative to other state police forces but also inadeqate overall.

Kerala police did get some operational idependence but corruption has risen in the force with independence.
There has to be checks and balances to streamline the forces.

Hoping that Supreme court forces the rapid implementation of the reforms by state govts. This may reduce the crimes against everyone including women folks.

politicians did nothing in this aspect. they were sitting tight . Due to efforts of Prakash Singh former DG of police who filed a case for it in Supreme court, this has come to light.

Some of the police laws date back to Indian war of Independence to suppress Indian population.(around 1860-1880s) :(
even today politicans/police forces think citizens as 2nd class.

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby Philip » 03 Jan 2013 08:37

Reform is required everywhere.A holistic approach is needed.Uraban and rural crimes against women often have different socio-economic reasons behind them.Therefore,every district in the country,a[rt from metros and large cities, should have a CAW (crimes against women) centre,with a hotline and afully equipped staff drawing upon the arms of the law (women's police wing),medical assistance,judiciary,NGOs etc.,to immediately follow up cases,give relief to the victims and their families and see that justice is meeted out asap.

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby Advait » 03 Jan 2013 09:41

The girl's father has said that the juvenile should be hanged and not spared because of his age. If it turns out that he is a double minor (member of minority community whose sentiments should not be hurt), then he will probably be let off with a slap on the wrist.

Why else is his name not being released? If he is going to be hanged, then what's the big deal regarding revealing his real name.

Anybody have a link to the chargesheet that has been filed?

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby krisna » 03 Jan 2013 10:17

Delhi's Broken Windows
How do you keep your home clean--
From the poorest family in a slum to the richest in mansions, all Indian families share a common practice; we clean our house every single day. There can be those rare days which are exceptions but we do sweep and mop the floor every single day. We do this routine in our offices too. This is one of the routines of our lives as with other hygiene ones. It’s one thing common between the rich and the poor. If we don’t, dust accumulates. If dust accumulates disease follows or possessions rot. As simple as that!


How about crime--
Crime prevention is not very different. Keeping cities free of crime is a daily routine. And when crime does happen we expect justice will follow and swiftly. The recent incident of the Gangrape of a 23-year old woman and her death brought people out on to the streets. The response of the govt and police merely indicate that they aren’t following the daily routines. Lathi-charges, water-cannons, shutting down metro-rail, buses and barricades are all responses in a ‘contagion’. Although this Gangrape acted as a trigger people weren’t really out in anger for that alone. Delhizens are simply fed up to their necks with the frequent crimes in the city-state. This is a long story, in multiple parts, and not to do with the media alone.


some examples like in an airport--
The ‘moment of truth’ as I call it is when a guest or visitor first comes in contact with a city or a service. When a flight is cancelled or delayed beyond tolerance, irate passengers don’t call up the Chairman of the airline to scream at; do they? They usually crowd around the hapless check-in girl and give her a harrowing time (see image and also see video on Youtube). The poor girl has absolutely nothing to do with the aircraft, cancellation, delays or flights except checking you in. Yet, she is the one facing the brunt of public anger. She is the ‘window’ of the airline. She is the ‘moment of truth’, the first point of contact.

In Delhi--
For most visitors to Delhi that first moment of truth or point of contact is a Taxi or an Auto. The behaviour of some of them is quite uncivil and makes you feel unwelcome. To top it all they don’t run on meters even till this day; 65 years after independence. Isn’t it astonishing, that those who claim to be in charge of law and order, crime-prevention and justice haven’t managed to get taxis and autos run on simple meters? Why in the world should Delhi airport have a system of ‘prepaid’ fares for yellow taxis which should just flag down their meters? This is true for all metros with the exception of Mumbai and for most other large cities in India. Lately, private taxis run on meters and even issue receipts.


Crime doesn’t start with tragic rape and murder cases. It starts with failure in daily house-keeping.


The lowest one in the rank faces the brunt of attack--

As frequent as eve-teasing has been in Delhi, this daily hygiene issue doesn’t seem to be getting the daily treatment in requires. In buses or on the streets, a woman being teased or molested doesn’t seem to be seen as a symptom. Like that poor airline check-in girl who is your first point of contact? Yeah, he’s the nearest cop on the street or at the police station. The lowest one in the rank! Do you want to meet this cop in your worst nightmare? Most people dread the experience and contact a policeman only in very compelling circumstances. If eve-teasing is allowed to pass, it becomes the dust that gathers into a contagion called rape. This poor cop, like the check-in girl, is the lowest rung of the ladder, the Police Commissioner is the lowest rung in the political order and currently the PM and the ministers are the lowest rung of the dynastic order. :( The same poor cop faces the brunt of public ire during protests. One of them collapsed and died. The pic of PM and his ministers lining up for a guard of honour usually reserved for PMs, Presidents or State-Heads says a lot. And where are you, the people? We are the lowest fish in the whole food chain. Ironically, you should be the BOSS! You are the ones who either vote these people and/or pay their salaries. Yet, you are in a system where you, as the customer, come last.


Failure of law and order--
In Bangalore autos have a picture of the driver, his license details in a large enough frame behind the driver’s seat. It’s something every passenger can read and note and lodge a complaint if the driver breaks traffic rules, cheats or is lawless. It also tell you whether the license is valid and whether the real, licensed driver is the behind the wheel and not a proxy. Now, does that take some extraordinary intelligence or judicial panel to do? We don’t find this in Delhi or many other cities. Why should Delhi autos or taxis which don’t run on meters be on the streets? Why shouldn’t drivers of such vehicles have a deterrent of 5-10 years in prison if they don’t follow rules? Nothing! Unfortunately, it is one such bus which wasn’t street-worthy, which wasn’t licensed to be on the streets in which this terrible Gangrape happened. It’s that window through which the criminals sneaked in. That window wasn’t fixed.


Read about Broken windows theory

Broken windows theory in practice--
Ahmedabad and Delhi law and order
The theory of broken windows above quite explains the phenomenon of the crime culture in Delhi and neighbouring states. Ask yourself a question. If you leave your car in a public place in Delhi and another one in a public place in Ahmedabad, where do you think chances of it being stolen are higher?


New York city--
Rudy Guiliani and his police chiefs partly used the ‘broken window’ theory and test to fight crime in New York. Guiliani was successful in dramatically reducing crime in NY. How? He didn’t stop with thugs and Mafia-gangs; he also dealt with small offences like graffiti on public walls.


Some crimes affect ordinary people directly some don’t. Insecurity in public places affects all. This is the reason Delhizens came out in numbers to protest. At the same time, not only Delhizens but people in many other cities in India do not demand performance from public service operators


Lawlessness in Delhi and poor governanace in Delhi--
In Delhi it’s not just the public transport but every sphere of public life, be it medical shops, small restaurants, hotels, police stations, govt departments you will find it. Delhi also has the reputation of producing the most number of duplicates of branded products and even pirated IP products. There was a joke once that a Delhi trader was an outcast if he hadn’t bounced at least one cheque in a month. Encroachments, land smuggling, illegal extensions are all crimes and windows that are broken every single day in our cities. Rapes and murders are just a lot more dramatic; some more brutal than the others. Not surprisingly, when 9/11 happened, Rudy Guiliani was among the first-responders. He was with his people and his city. He was managing fire fighters on the ground and also talking to his citizens directly and through TV. In contrast, what did our leaders in Delhi do? They were mostly on TV and some were the ‘last responders’. Having gotten nowhere with justice for 26/11 (except for hanging the captured Kasab) our govt is now playing Cricket with Pakistan. That says a lot, doesn’t it?


congi political rulers---
Sheila Dikshit was tear-jerking on TV. Sushil Kumar Shinde was explaining why it makes no sense to meet protesters. Sonia Gandhi meets hand-picked ‘honey-bunnies’ in private. The PM makes a limp statement on TV days later to a comic finish with ‘Theek Hai’. Rahul Gandhi, the Congress party’s super-hero future PM, is the last responder with a typical text-book statement. And Oh, who was the first one with the soundbites? Of course, the intellectual bank of the party, Renuka Chaudhary. She was telling the world rapists shouldn’t be allowed to open bank accounts and shouldn’t be given insurance policies. I suppose banks and insurance companies can easily tell which customer is a potential rapist before opening an account. There are other MPs(President's son Abhsishek Mukherji) who found protesting women to be “dented and painted” and media morons (barkah dutt)who found “lumpens” among them.


DDM
And our media? Oh they get all types to give us a running commentary with strange people. They even bring in Bollywood divas. Shabana Azmi was on TV from 6am in the morning on December 29 till about 10 in the night. The most pathetic and filthy response was, obviously, from the filthy ubiquitous Bollywood spokesman in the media, Mahesh Bhatt. He wants temples to be shut down. This comes from a man who regularly produces soft-porn movies and lip-kisses his own daughter. This is the broken window in Bollywood and our media. The response of Kartikeya Tanna (who often writes for FirstPost) quite sums up Bhatt’s stupidity. Even in a tragic crime of rape and murder Mahesh Bhatt spews hatred for Hindu culture or religion. And these are the guttermouths leading protests. You know where security and justice is headed.


Duct taping broken windows--
On the night of December 27, Thursday the Delhi govt suddenly decided to shift the rape victim to Singapore for better treatment. The news broke around midnight and naturally people were suspicious. The woman was critical all through and chances of survival seemed thin. So it was indeed surprising why such a decision was taken. The media was cleared from the Safdurjang hospital. However, around midnight only one media celeb was allowed to report from the hospital area; not hard to guess who. There are now reports that the victim was in an irreversible coma and I personally believe doctors may not have given her long to survive. It just seems the govt didn’t want her to die on their “turf”. That would have turned a calamity into a complete disaster. So they shipped her off to Singapore, brought her dead body back and cremated her quietly in a hush-hush manner. These tweets from Minhaz Merchant, a media consultant and regular columnist, say it all. Instead of handling the truth and showing the courage to face people with reality, our govt was fixing the broken window with duct-tape. How long will that Band-Aid last?


Harish Salve lawyer on rape laws--
The only person I could see who made any sense in the clutter was Harish Salve, the noted lawyer. He mentioned strongly that there was no need for new laws but that laws simply needed implementation and justice delivered faster. He stated that the punishments need to be the fullest under the law.


Prathibah Patil, former president--
The media even got former president Pratibha Patil to lament. She is the one who commuted the death sentence of around 35 criminals, some of whom were sentenced to death for rape and murder. Some of their victims were as young as 5-6 year old girls.

Political parties--
The political parties are yet to sack any of their MPs/MLAs who have rape or murder cases against them to prove to the people they are willing to act. RPN Singh, (husband of sonia singh from undie stable)the very honourable minister, stated GOI will create a database of rape convicts. I wonder what he will do with it. Aren’t rape convicts anyway supposed to be in jail? All it needs is to sentence for longer terms or to death, if there is murder as well.


Blame game as usual for incompetent governance--
Sheila Dikshit blamed immigrants for increased crime in Delhi. P. Chidambaram had made a similar comment in the past. Whether immigrants or not, how they license buses and drivers is Delhi’s own turf. This is not a question of law or making more laws. It’s about really turning public servants to ACT as public servants. They need to do the daily sweeping and mopping to clean the dust. Windows will be broken every day and will need to be fixed every single day. Every politician in the govt who spoke after the Gangrape has shown absolutely no real intelligence on how they are going to clean up Delhi. Nothing! Except for changing the distress call number to 181, which was reportedly busy during a mishap this morning. This is also true for other cities and not Delhi alone. Carried away with all the attention and TRP-getting shows, the media too won’t honestly assess the crime situation. None even protested Manish Tiwari’s threat to curb telecast of the protests. A govt that has been too busy with scams and at election-time dishes out the regular doles is not going to fix much. Duct-taping can only hold for a while. Appeasement of Some and justice for None!


Brilliantly put article on the causes of the crimes.
Hope some posters realise that simply dissing the society/culture as a whole is not the problem or solution.


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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby member_20317 » 03 Jan 2013 10:30

Sanjay ji, Ramana ji. Great thought provoking posts on Page 14. Thanks.

Sanjay ji, rapes are about power play. Got nothing to do with sexual urges. If it had anything to do with sex then the occasion for rape would not arise simply because low risk sex is available for cheap in virtually all societies. In India the fount of this power play is the political set up which is heavy on hypocrisy. The basic culture of MC/BC cussing has more to do with personal politics and frustrations of such personal politics.

In cultures like US a rape can only be expected. They are the ones who specialise in the fungibility of rape. Indians actually are followers of US and such likes for this kind of behaviour.

But I do not understand about Trinidad. Is your country also undermined on the simple benchmark of rational thought.

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby Advait » 03 Jan 2013 10:53

ravi_g wrote:.Sanjay ji, rapes are about power play. Got nothing to do with sexual urges. .


ravi, rapes often just about satisfying sexual urges, done by men who have no empathy and self control.

To pretend otherwise is just denying reality.

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby Sushupti » 03 Jan 2013 10:59

highly toxic(secular) content

Taking the aggression out of masculinity

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/t ... 266007.ece

Image

Last edited by Sushupti on 03 Jan 2013 11:07, edited 1 time in total.

Anantha
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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby Anantha » 03 Jan 2013 11:07

Advait wrote:The girl's father has said that the juvenile should be hanged and not spared because of his age. If it turns out that he is a double minor (member of minority community whose sentiments should not be hurt), then he will probably be let off with a slap on the wrist.

Why else is his name not being released? If he is going to be hanged, then what's the big deal regarding revealing his real name.

Anybody have a link to the chargesheet that has been filed?


The wiki page says the "juvenile"'s name is Mohammed Afroz. It is strongly suspected that this guy may not be a juvenile and tests may be doctored to prove that he is under 18.
I have not seen a copy of the charge sheet, but Times-now has a copy. It may be on their or in a related website

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby krishnan » 03 Jan 2013 11:51

So the guy who does the most horrific thing ends up being a minor...very coincident ...really.

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby sum » 03 Jan 2013 11:59

Taking the aggression out of masculinity

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/t ... 266007.ece

Wanted to post the same!

My eyes virtually fell out of their sockets when i saw this in today's print edition. Wonder if Poor Swami Vivekananda had dreamt that posing for a photograph would have him labelled as Hindu communalist showing his masculinity a century later!
Last edited by sum on 03 Jan 2013 15:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby krisna » 03 Jan 2013 12:09

Some news regarding rape laws.
Though child marriages are declining, child marriage is rape -- does not matter if it there is consent or not according to world bodies like unicef etc and others.
India is a signatory to these laws.
child marriages is 47% according to unicef in 2010 before age 18.
So all these are classified as rapes and caused by a known person!!.

This does boost the statistsics to account for 90% rapes by known people.

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby member_20317 » 03 Jan 2013 12:25

Advait wrote:
ravi_g wrote:.Sanjay ji, rapes are about power play. Got nothing to do with sexual urges. .


ravi, rapes often just about satisfying sexual urges, done by men who have no empathy and self control.

To pretend otherwise is just denying reality.




Advait ji, following is the train of thoughts that you have used to understand rapes:

1. sexual urges
2. men
3. no empathy and self control

If you observe carefully

Sexual urges is a natural phenomena, men also have sexual urges. You and I too.
Men are the only ones who can rape in any practical sense. Surely nobody can ban men.
The only operative part that remains is empathy and self control.

Bade ji has, amongst other links, posted the following very clearly understandable link. And I repost it here with thanks to Bade ji. Please meditate on the significance of the figure on Page 4. Internet hindus like myself would readily understand it. Shows a clear link between the criminal tendecies and politics of tustikaran. Actually for the part of India that I am most familiar with, the observation gets accentuated even further and all this when the first page itself suggests the framework that is being used to interpret and present data.


http://ncrb.nic.in/CD-CII2011/cii-2011/Chapter%205.pdf

Collectors item. Show how truth cannot remain hidden for long muddai lakh bura chahe. One just needs the will to drill down.

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby Jaeger » 03 Jan 2013 13:15



RB, this is horrifying... but not surprising. There is an entrenched "don't give a f***" attitude to what's happening with the tribal peoples across India. They are impediments and obstacles to "our" progress, to be broken, crushed, brushed away. They are children to be "educated" - that is the brown man's burden. They are Reds. They are Evanjehadis. See this Gladson Dungdung trying to convert this girl by offering her support. That is the real outrage obviously.

There is a "haq se" attitude we have towards the "lesser" types. See the picture of the man stamping down/kicking on her private parts in the article. That is the perfect representation of the attitude. She is an animal being teased for entertainment.

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby PrasadZ » 03 Jan 2013 13:26

ravi_g wrote:Bade ji has, amongst other links, posted the following very clearly understandable link. And I repost it here with thanks to Bade ji. Please meditate on the significance of the figure on Page 4. Internet hindus like myself would readily understand it. Shows a clear link between the criminal tendecies and politics of tustikaran. Actually for the part of India that I am most familiar with, the observation gets accentuated even further and all this when the first page itself suggests the framework that is being used to interpret and present data.

http://ncrb.nic.in/CD-CII2011/cii-2011/Chapter%205.pdf

Collectors item. Show how truth cannot remain hidden for long muddai lakh bura chahe. One just needs the will to drill down.


Bihar's crimes against women stats are at 9.9, UP is at 11.3 while the neighboring city of Delhi (with large populations from these states) has 31.2 ! It seems suggestive of massive under reporting in Bihar even above the low reports that we take for granted from Delhi.

Kerala has 33.8 compared to TN's 9.6 ?!! Many posters from TN have recounted personal experiences that run counter to these numbers. I have only been in either state as a tourist and my wife has always thought Kerala was safer (i admit there may be a selection bias in my experience since Kerala may just have more/better tourist infrastructure than TN and lived experience is, perhaps, different).

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby Sanku » 03 Jan 2013 13:31

Prasad wrote: You practically called theo a drain inspector. And by association nri's even if you didnt explicitly state that. Thassal.
!


Thats absolutely not all Prasad-ji, you have, and I repeat it, chosen put words in my mouth, based on your selective reading and interpretation.

For the record, I absolutely do not appreciate this, I have nothing more to say on the topic than to request that more care be shown in future please.

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby Sachin » 03 Jan 2013 15:10

PrasadZ wrote:Kerala has 33.8 compared to TN's 9.6 ?!! Many posters from TN have recounted personal experiences that run counter to these numbers. I have only been in either state as a tourist and my wife has always thought Kerala was safer (i admit there may be a selection bias in my experience since Kerala may just have more/better tourist infrastructure than TN and lived experience is, perhaps, different).

Kerala any day would beat TN hands down when it comes to harassment of women :). This 100% literacy bull-$hit is not going to save the skin of the state. Passing lewd comments, or groping (especially in buses) etc. are pretty much common *. Sex rackets are also found all across the state, even though in some cases the women would have agreed to do the job. The most scandalous ones reported in the recent past was a father pimping his daughter to many people, and in another case a girl who was raped by the father, brother and a handicapped uncle as well. The general opinion of the various intellectuals (in the state) is that the very restrictive environment in which boys and girls mingle, or the strict compartmentalised social gatherings etc. are what causes these problems. Even to this day, you would not find many schools (even lower primary) which allow a girl and boy to sit on the same bench. There was a good feature (prepared by three women journalists) in one of the Malayalam news papers. This was about the harassment they had to face once the sun goes down and darkness set in (and when they were travelling).

*: In a recent such incident in Thrissur, the accused drunkard was meted out an unique punishment. The local police sub-inspector took him around each bus parked in the bus stand, and asked him to first tell every one what crime he did, and then apologise to the women community. This was even shown in TV. Did not know if the PSI was harassed by the human right-wallahs.

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby Arjun » 03 Jan 2013 15:26

Swami Vivekananda’s masculine photographic-pose was only one aspect of the cult of masculinity encouraged and tolerated by nationalism.

:roll: I am waiting for the day when the Red Queen ruling India and her demented son, along with media cohorts - declare all logic to be 'fascist', 'polarizing' & inciteful of a 'nationalistic cult of masculinity'.

Am confident there is no escaping the advanced dementia that India is slipping into...

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby sum » 03 Jan 2013 15:30

Am confident there is no escaping the advanced dementia that India is slipping into...

^^ +1.

Somehow have this feeling that even worse days are to come and we are going in reverse direction, despite the optimism in BRF that things will turn around.

2014 will see UPA-3 in action and things will keep going downwards

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby Neela » 03 Jan 2013 15:49

sum wrote:
Am confident there is no escaping the advanced dementia that India is slipping into...

^^ +1.
Somehow have this feeling that even worse days are to come and we are going in reverse direction, despite the optimism in BRF that things will turn around.
2014 will see UPA-3 in action and things will keep going downwards


Saar natural cycle. Worse days means more polarization and opposing parties take well-entrenched positions. Just observed that a site called mediacrooks.com had more than 14 Lakh page views . A year or so back, the number of views was much,much lesser. So there, isn't that a clear indication that the tide is slowly swelling against perceived unjust actions.

Unbridled power -> Unjust actions -> More people affected -> Opposition grows stronger and louder -> .....

Congress aka GoI has unbridled power that they used on the "lumpens" ( just kidding ) and on the rape victim ( airlifting to SG) ..all unjust actions. The demonstrators were lathi charged and the nation saw how fellow citizens were treated. The opposition to these actions have grown stronger. It will / has to manifest.

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby sum » 03 Jan 2013 15:58

^^ Somehow the HP results deflated whatever little hope i had rising in me about any change happening. The results never seem to manifest on ground other than 2-3 day rallies.

Lets see, maybe things might straighten out but somehow, i have my doubts.

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby member_23629 » 03 Jan 2013 16:05

ramana wrote:Question can the bus operator also be charged? Insn't there an implict understanding between passengers and owners for safety from bu operators? Was the bus owner unaware of the criminal nature of his driver(s)?


He has already been arrested for providing a fake address in the permit papers of the bus, and all transport deptt. permits of his buses and a taxi have been cancelled.

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby Sanjay » 03 Jan 2013 16:16

Ramana, I will revert later today on this.

I want to agree with the Broken windows concept. Little things matter.

Will ask this again - what about other cities ? Is there any city where a woman is significantly less likely to be harassed or molested (leave rape out of this for a moment) ?

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby PrasadZ » 03 Jan 2013 16:17

Reuters' experts poll showing India worst country to be a woman
Rudradev had posted and commented on this poll a while back saying it was unrepresentative. I agree. Its a poll of gender experts, not a statistical study. But even those who think studies like this are cultural weapons have to contend with the choice of weapon. This is a weak spot in Indian culture.

Here is a link to a UNICEF study on early marriage.
Domestic violence is more common among women who had been married as children. India has the highest levels of domestic violence among women married by 18 with a rate of 67 per cent, compared to 45 per cent of women who had not experienced violence.


Study on Child Abuse by GOI
This study, which is the largest of its kind undertaken anywhere in the world, covered 13 states with a sample size of 12447 children, 2324 young adults and 2449 stakeholders. It looked at different forms of child abuse: Physical Abuse, Sexual Abuse and Emotional Abuse and Girl Child Neglect in five different evidence groups, namely, children in a family environment, children in school, children at work, children on the street and children in institutions.


1. 53.22% children reported having faced one or more forms of sexual abuse.
2. Andhra Pradesh, Assam, Bihar and Delhi reported the highest percentage of sexual abuse among both boys and girls.

Bihar, however, appears quite low in the rate of crime against women study linked earlier on this thread. Strange if its only children who are targeted in Bihar and not the women.
Tamil Nadu is not included in this study so no ready comparison can be made against Kerala but Sachin's comments about Kerala look right (i will have to update my mental models :cry: ). Also look at the %age of girls reporting sexual abuse on page 75.

This is a :(( post even though I put in some facts to back the :((
Unfortunately, I get the uneasy feeling there is cultural backing and acceptance for gender violence in India. Maybe, there are similar issues in other cultures but our culture can only be set right by us.

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby darshhan » 03 Jan 2013 16:18

krisna wrote:Some news regarding rape laws.
Though child marriages are declining, child marriage is rape -- does not matter if it there is consent or not according to world bodies like unicef etc and others.
India is a signatory to these laws.
child marriages is 47% according to unicef in 2010 before age 18.
So all these are classified as rapes and caused by a known person!!.

This does boost the statistsics to account for 90% rapes by known people.


Krisna ji, My Grandfather was no rapist. :)

Child marriage is more a cultural thing than criminal. It is unfair to portray all the child marriage practitioners as rapists. By this definition even Gandhi ji would have qualified as a rapist

Therefor fukk UN/UNICEF. We should never let UN decide our lives.

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby darshhan » 03 Jan 2013 16:26

sum wrote:
Taking the aggression out of masculinity

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/t ... 266007.ece

Wanted to post the same!

My eyes virtually fell out of their sockets when i saw this in today's print edition. Wonder if Poor Swami Vivekananda had dreamt that posing for a photograph would have him labelled as Hindu communalist showing his masculinity a century later!


The author " Sanjay Srivastava" sounds like a faggot and I mean no disrespect to gays. Pathetic fag dhimmi using the name of Swami Vivekanand to further his nefarious political agenda.Most probably another leftist scum who pretends to be an intellectual.

If anything men of today have forgotten what it is to be a man. They are a confused lot. Far from losing aggression, they actually need it more than ever before. I.e focussed aggression.

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby Surya » 03 Jan 2013 19:50

a series of articles from the west

First Emer O toole takes to task the commentators who have used this to demonise and show their cultural superiority

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ape-damini


Purves's article claims that we in the west are "looking eastward in disgust". I believe that disgusted parties would do well to turn their judgmental gazes on their own societies. Let's look east in solidarity and support for India's urgently necessary women's rights movement; let's keep talking about the social discrimination Indian women face, which affluent westerners do not. However, it is both prejudiced and completely fantastical to talk as though sexual violence is some kind of Indian preserve. We might have comparatively better women's rights in the UK, but this is due, in large part, to the social services that our wealth allows. Colonial history helped to create and global capital continues to sustain low standards of living in India. We would do well to be cognisant of our historically inscribed privilege before complaining that this horrific event has destroyed our pretty colonial fantasies.


Owen Jones from the Independent writes another balanced article

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/com ... 33445.html

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby chaanakya » 03 Jan 2013 21:17

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 873340.cms

Earlier, Chief Justice of India (CJI) Altamas Kabir inaugurated a fast-track court at Saket court complex in Delhi last evening. The gang rape and murder of a 23-year old physiotherapy student in Delhi will be the first case to be heard in this court.

Strongly advocating for courts to act as a deterrent in the future to check crimes against women, CJI Kabir on Wednesday said, "a serious message needs to be sent in dealing with such heinous crimes".


The five accused — Ram Singh, his brother Mukesh and their accomplices Pawan Gupta, Vinay Sharma and Akshay Thakur — have been charged for the offences of murder, gang rape, attempt to murder, kidnapping, unnatural offences, dacoity, hurting in committing robbery, destruction of evidence, criminal conspiracy and common intention under the Indian Penal Code.

The sixth accused, who is thought to be a juvenile, will be charged separately. His bone density are being analyzed now to ascertain if the sixth accused is a juvenile or an adult.

Theo_Fidel

Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby Theo_Fidel » 03 Jan 2013 21:32

krishnan wrote:So the guy who does the most horrific thing ends up being a minor...very coincident ...really.


Actually this is not usual. At 16/17 the brain is still developing and emotions such as empathy and self control and controlling ones hysteria are not very mature. It would not surprise me to learn that he was the most eager to please and very good at following the 'mood' of the crowd.

Some doctors types can elaborate on this.

There is a reason all the guerilla groups from Jaffna to Nepal to Cambodia to central America selectively recruit children into their 'armies'.

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby Sanjay » 03 Jan 2013 21:40

Ramana, those IPC changes look sensible. The question is will legislative time be made for them ?

I would note also that UPA/NDA politics has no place right now.

The fact is that this is not about a rape or rape in India as isolated subjects. There is something seriously wrong with the way women are treated by men.

It is not religious. It is not "Indian culture" or "family patriarch". All of these are have their own flaws and are in need of reform. Rather it is a staggering upsurge not in discrimination against women (it was much worse when girls could not even get schooling) but in physical, verbal and psychological violence against women.

What causes that and how is it stopped ?

Theo_Fidel

Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby Theo_Fidel » 03 Jan 2013 21:42

The bail at 14 years sounds particularly untenable any more. Esp. not having the victims input. People are living into their 80's now.

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby ramana » 03 Jan 2013 22:26

I liked the fact that the fast track court was setup quickly in Delhi. At same time I was nonplussed by the CJI's comments about hurried justice. He could have said it in a different location and not reduced the impact of the setting up of fast track court.

varunkumar, Thanks for the info.


All,
Can we have an actions taken after the gangrape post? I would like to cover the bus operator and his permits, the police constable(s), the ACPs etc. The MHA daily taskforce, hafta guidelines, bus operating conditions, and so on and so forth....

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby IndraD » 03 Jan 2013 23:45

The high point of his life was when he thrust his tightly clenched right fist into the womb of the bruised and battered 23-year-old on the night of December 16. Nothing beat the excitement he felt when he heard her muzzled screams, saw her writhe in extreme pain and watched the blood spurting from her young body

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/crim ... 39847.html

Is this Rahul same as Md Afroz, the so called minor?

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Re: Delhi Rape Victim Dies-Express your outrage.

Postby member_23629 » 04 Jan 2013 00:17

IndraD wrote:
The high point of his life was when he thrust his tightly clenched right fist into the womb of the bruised and battered 23-year-old on the night of December 16. Nothing beat the excitement he felt when he heard her muzzled screams, saw her writhe in extreme pain and watched the blood spurting from her young body

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/crim ... 39847.html

Is this Rahul same as Md Afroz, the so called minor?


This makes sickening reading. A gang of blood thirsty animals in human form. In medieval times, these beasts would have been tortured with equal severity. They deserve hanging at the minimum.

During the attack, it was Rahul who is said to have suggested the use of an iron rod to not only beat the woman but shove it into her. "After shoving it up her body, they pulled it out forcefully," says the lead investigator. That pulled out her intestines and left them hanging from the body. "After a point, the more the woman screamed in pain, the better they felt, particularly Rahul and Ram Singh," says the lead investigator.

Even the most hardened of policemen, who see blood and gore often, sound shattered at the brutality of the rape. But perhaps the growing dark underbelly of urban India is not yet done with stories that will scar the nation's soul.
Last edited by member_23629 on 04 Jan 2013 00:21, edited 1 time in total.


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