Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

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ramana
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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby ramana » 04 Jan 2013 05:09

A BJP spokesman in Delhi writes in Pioneer

http://www.dailypioneer.com/columnists/ ... belly.html

The Delhi underbelly
Author: Sanjay Kaul

An aseptic, self-delusionary analysis of the ‘whys’ of persistent rape in Delhi will not help — its time to face the stark reality of life here

The headless chicken-ry around the grotesque case of the gang-rape in Delhi has reached its nadir. Opinions have ranged from summary executions, to torture, to flogging and castration — as if we were in the badlands of Kandahar - to more sanguine solutions like instructing children from school level, sensitising youth, gender equality classes and just ho-hum improvement in policing.

Some controversy has been generated — not on account of poor policing and the critical disconnect from law and order among the state functions — but a tiff between the Chief Minister and the Lt Governor over the sacking of the Police Commissioner. Lost in translation is the real reason why this sort of thing happens, and why Delhi has earned the sobriquet of the rape capital of India.

It is nobody’s case that law and order and policing is a prime culprit in this case, but the equal truth is that Delhi has comparatively better policing than other cities and capitals. The real reasons are therefore not to be found where we are looking. They lie in the collapse of governance in the capital. If one were to join the dots, it would take us through a complex web of governance hot spots to unravel the cause of this horrific incident and the graph would have to go through the issues of education, migration, poverty, unemployment, civic segregation, over population, transportation, cultural dis-assimilation, entitlements, ownership and social alienation, and finally, law and order.

The hasty mind rushes about trying to fit all this into a convenient template so that fast-track justice could be dispensed: A hanging that could satisfy the crowds, maybe; or hang them all, maybe. Anything so that we do not have to deal with the contours of the real dilemma of how and why this sort of thing happens - repeatedly. But there are good reasons why rapes, and other crimes will continue to have an inordinate prominence in cities like Delhi. Rape gets more attention for its double violation, but if you put the statistics together you will notice a corresponding uptick in crime in general.

Statistically speaking, crime in Delhi is directly proportional to the areas that are underserved by governance in terms of health, education, employment and inter alia, policing. Here, access to justice is in perverted conjugation with poverty, hygiene, space, general social conditions and a serious cultural misfit. That interlocks with the phenomenon of migration; that in turn, points to hovels and slums; that to poverty and that to overpopulation to the extent of living six to a room. Alcoholism, unemployment, hard conditions of labour and existence, hygiene so bad the gutter is your neighbourhood and sanitary conditions so poor women wait for dusk to relieve themselves.

Now, let’s talk about shame in the elegant language of civil engagement on women’s rights, gender equality and more esoteric subjects!

In a south Delhi slum where some of my volunteers were working, a meeting was arranged for me to intervene and see what we could do to ameliorate their situation. I pointed out that I would focus on only one thing and so asked them to tell me the one thing they needed most which we could fix. I expected them to ask for water, or toilets or roads or even regularisation of their illegal hutments but they confounded me by asking for a policeman for the area. Why? Because, every night is a night of violation for their women; every evening a drunken brawl, a gambling sport and nobody’s sister, wife or daughter is really free from the claws of depraved humanity.

Was it just an accident that this rape was committed by youth from such clusters? Or was the rape more heinous to bear because it compromises class distinctions, on some level. Was the middle class awakening laced with angst at one of their own violated by one of ‘them’? Nothing is an excuse. But the truth is not be excused either. The fact remains that the abnormalities of a poorly governed city are all over to see.

At another level, let us examine the more fundamental aspects of such behaviour when juxtaposed in the cultural context. Often told that north India suffers this sort of behaviour more than other states, we slumber into thinking it has to do with the aggression normally linked to the north and north-west belts as against the more sombre south or the relatively matriarchical eastern belt, but statistics from West Bengal and Tripura taking the lion’s share of crimes against women makes us revisit the theory. Cultural homogeneity too is no guarantee and we must come back to issues of governance.

It was no accident too that the genesis of this crime had to do with a transport issue. Underserved areas with non- existent bus networks, almost zero investment in state-run buses and out of control corruption in the handing out of licences to private parties are all manifestations of the state’s failure. For a regime that has been in control of the administration for the last fourteen years uninterrupted, the inability of the state to provide a safe and reliable bus transport network are prime basis for such crimes to fester.

This brings us to the conclusion that rapes happen because on the one hand there is the breakdown of civil arrangements of existence in cities and on the other hand a breakdown in control and deterrence, or inadequate policing. The gender aspects may all be real and right but at the end of the day a crime is a crime and if it were not that people had a general sense of being able to escape punishment, there would not be the flagrant violations we see today.

To examine why this is so only needs a cursory look at the political interconnection between statehood and policing in the capital. Unlike other states, the state of Delhi does not control the police, which is a central subject. This is a serious abnormality in a democratic milieu where taxpayers cannot demand from their law makers, law and order. In a travesty of representation of people, those we anoint have no power, or indeed reason, to protect us. The absence of a vested interest for the political class to engage with our security creates the fault lines of the situation we see before us today. You cannot vote them out for failing to protect you.

So with the victim now out of the way, and the Commissioner Police in the crosshairs, the Chief Minister of the state remains absolved of all guilt — a situation she has enjoyed for close to three terms in what has to be termed as the ultimate aphrodisiac — power without responsibility.

(Sanjay Kaul is a spokesperson for the BJP in Delhi)


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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby Sanjay » 04 Jan 2013 06:14

All of Sanjay Kaul's comments are correct.

While no fan of the UPA, I will ask (without detracting from the truth of Kaul's comments) the BJP and NDA to make the first move by denying tickets to every member of the party charged with a criminal offence. Take the lead on this subject

However, at this stage India needs to look at the following steps - regardless of party affiliation:

(a) A system of volunteers to provide a visible point of safety for women facing difficulty and who would accompany them to the police if necessary

(b) Creation of a network of rape/harassment/molestation assistance centres for survivors of such crimes to avail themselves of succor/ accompaniment to medical treatment and the police

(c) A campaign of awareness to get women and girls and crimes to report crimes, if not directly to the police, to such NGOs as are available who can then take the matter up with the police.

(d) Further awareness is also needed to encourage children to recognize inappropriate conduct from others and to report the same. This will take time as crimes against children tend to be well-hidden.

While the State has certainly failed women and vulnerable sections of Indian society, it must also be recognized at society - the citizens themselves (and men in particular) - have failed.

The State should not have to teach people good behaviour or that harassing a woman is wrong.

India can change and will change but this is a cathartic moment for the Nation and if properly grasped, with or without the government, India can make a huge leap forward.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby SaiK » 04 Jan 2013 06:34

Kids in USA get sex education basically on the awareness of appropriate behavior while they attain puberty, AIDS, abstinence (not sure about certain states), help lines, etc.

Still, one can't rule out any sort of forced act, assault or crime. But the fact is they have covered are doing what needs to be done for the bare minimum.

Perhaps we need along with Moral Science, Sex Education, an education about our legal-police-political setup actualities and realities would benefit the young minds.. They get aware, 'cause none of these school going kids get to watch news or be aware of the certain needed details of situation around them. Social Environment studies is also important.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby SwamyG » 04 Jan 2013 06:45

I have said it numerous times in BRF, yatha praja thatha raja. Now kanchan Gupta feels the same : http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/0 ... 97998.html

Yet, it would be in order to caution our unhearing politicians who think paying lip service to popular disquiet and reading out prepared texts drafted by self-serving bureaucrats, as a feckless Prime Minister did in the name of addressing the nation without even once lifting his eyes and ending with a “Theek hai?”, that their little tricks do not impress any more. People are tired of vacuous promises and worn clichés; they want to see Government exercising its authority and politicians serving the interests of the people, not the other way round. Having said that, it would also be in order to remind those condemning the Government and the political class of something I have often said in these columns: Yatha praja, tatha raja – as the people, so the rulers. Yes, the Congress-led UPA Government has proved to be an unmitigated disaster. Yes, internal security, of which policing is a major component, is in a shambles. Yes, corruption taints every act of Government. But this regime did not parachute into power, it was voted to office by the same middle-classes which are now chanting “Hai-hai”.


The society requires some serious rethinking and reform. In a country where laws are broken willy nilly by both praja and raja, the solution cannot be just in the sphere of justice. Deterrence from a societal perspective is must.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby lakshmikanth » 04 Jan 2013 07:19

The end-picture (not solution) as far as seeing women as equals contains the following

1) Women are as productive as males and get compensated equally, this would liberate them from any sort of bondage.
2) Women and men explore each other freely and consensually with society keeping its nose out of that. This would prevent repression and perversion. Sexual repression manifests as violence and perversion in males (goat seks, rape seks etc). I believe (out of my musharraf theory) that repression also makes women more sly and manipulative than normally needed.

#1 above is slowly happening in India. But Industrialization is not happening at a fast enough pace to even employ our young males. Undoubtedly UPA is asleep at the wheel here. Hopefully it atleast gets the house clean in this department sooner or later.

#2 will happen only if caste based arranged marriages go away. Or more importantly caste and religion do not occupy the primary spot in the national consciousness and discourse.

I dont care so much about the existence of arranged marriage, but the current caste based version must die and become a fossil to be examined and never to be replicated.

Here is why: Arranged marriage is a way to "Keep-it-in-the-family". Its a way to preserve something. That something might be wealth, "caste-purity", religious market share, "virginity", honor and dignity and what not. How does one do that in a patriarchal society (our scriptures primarily are patriarchal)???

In a patriarchal society, the female assumes the weaker role and she moves from one family to the other in case of marriage. The whole concept of "keeping-it-in-the-family" is lost if a female is "free" to chose whom she wants to marry. Also if the female is free to have "seks" then it also dilutes her 'virginity" and makes her unacceptable to another family, hence the loss of honor and dignity.

The solution for keeping honor and dignity and also keeping it in the family is simple: Control women. Prevent them from having seks. Prevent them from losing virginity by not having seks, or in other words strict segregation of man and woman.

Hence a requirement for caste/community based arranged marriage would necessitate the need for segregation.

This would be ok if the males were trained to be docile and obedient like our last generation. This is not the case anymore, we have bollywood, pukeywood and all other woods showing off what lies on the other side to males. We have online p()rn, where ones wildest fantasies is being performed by a few folks right infront of ones eyes. In such an environment it is difficult to maintain sanity. The result is what we have in our society. The extreme version is what we have in the baki society. Sorry to draw an equal equal, the largest number for searches for "goat seks" was from Bakistan. The second largest was from India.

Now coming to the practical solution, if you are below 40 and in India. Get an arms license and learn how to manufacture and use weapons. You are going to need it. The prognosis is grim, but I dont see any solution to such a broken system. It needs a reboot after cleaning out all the filth.

Last but not the least, I hope I am wrong in my prognosis :-?

EDIT: Data point on goat seks: http://www.google.co.in/trends/explore#q=goat%20sex
Last edited by lakshmikanth on 04 Jan 2013 07:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby SriKumar » 04 Jan 2013 07:22

RajeshA wrote:There are many streams for looking for solutions. One stream is "street justice". I'd like to look at that.

Those who do rape or just less serious "sexual harassment" need to feel fear, the fear of society. This fear of society is gone.

What this involves is "the courage of citizens to intervene" in favor of a harassed woman. Any miscreant taking liberties with women need to first be beaten up by the crowd around and then delivered to the police. What one needs is for youth groups to "patrol" the streets and buses and public places, and when they see something untoward happening, they should intervene. Somebody needs to act as the catalyst for the rest of the crowd. Somebody needs to act first. This does not always come easy. One needs to mentally prepare for such situations. One needs to physically prepare for such confrontations.

So all those young people, who have shown an interest in protesting as well as others should organize themselves in "workshops" where training for such intervention is given.
Good idea to look at multiple streams. Why call the above 'street justice'...let's call it 'community involvement', right? :) After all, any good citizen would be interested in seeing that the weak are not terrorized by bullies and criminals in the society? I think the above suggestion has some merit in reducing 'eve-teasing' cases (not sure about more serious types of assault- people intervening might get hurt/killed). The response of the concerned citizens need not be violent i.e. no beating required....verbal or even un-spoken pressure (as in, a group of people verbally warn the eve-teasers to stop) might be sufficient in the 'benign' cases. Now, this can get dangerous for the good samaritans if the eve teasers are goondas or have political connections. I dont know what can be done in such cases other than to, perhaps, video tape the people and submit the tape to the police and have them take action (and they might not; but there is a chance the police will take action if the goondas are not politically protected). Even snapshots from phone cameras can serve the purpose of documenting (and later identifying) the eve-teasers. For this to happen, one has to form a group of sorts in a gali/mohalla, or within a college. Perhaps NCC cadets in a college might have the group cohesivity to do something about this, atleast discuss a few benign steps?

I think for eve-teasing, right-thinking people (commons) have to get involved, if even to talk about it and convey that 'eve teasing' is not harmless fun (=cultural sensitization). Having women police definitely helps and we should have more women police, but I think it will difficult to police every trouble-spot in a given city 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. Police need help from the average citizens too (just like the BRF forum mods cannot police every thread and every post, they have a 'report' button and expect the posters to report offensive posts!)

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby SriKumar » 04 Jan 2013 07:38

Sanjay wrote:All of Sanjay Kaul's comments are correct.

While no fan of the UPA, I will ask (without detracting from the truth of Kaul's comments) the BJP and NDA to make the first move by denying tickets to every member of the party charged with a criminal offence. ......
India can change and will change but this is a cathartic moment for the Nation and if properly grasped, with or without the government, India can make a huge leap forward.
Agreed on all counts. Both parties have MPs (or atleast they had candidates) with pending rape charges. When asked about it on TV (Arnab's show?) one of them said 'well, they were voted in by the people'. And he probably forgot to add 'all are innocent until proven guilty'. So why would we expect such MPs to enact and vote a fast-track legislation into a law that might help incarcerate them at a later stage? Only the current public pressure might have any chance of effecting this change, as in, not giving tickets to people with rape charges. It is unbelievable that they cannot find an alternative person to represent their party.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby krisna » 04 Jan 2013 08:42

viewtopic.php?p=1386565#p1386565
(E) Endemic mass lewdness, stalking, harassment, groping culture prevalent

This is a major reason for women to feel unsafe in India. Reason are as simple as it can be. population and crowds.
This is not a major factor in western world relatively. viewtopic.php?p=1385771#p1385771. good post by saravana.
will not eleborate on the western world-- employment and cars and less crowds for women to be groped etc. self explanatory.
How to solve it --
1) Improve economic conditions--very common by youngsters who are unemeployed. By reducing the free time to loiter it can be reduced enormously but not completely
. educational reforms so that many youngsters will have job oriented courses etc.by creating job opportunities -- This alone will reduce women crimes to a great extent. Younsters have abundant enthusiasm in their prime life if harnessed properly we can be a great nation or it will descent into chaos.
Western nations fear younsters and make sure their employment levels do not dip considerably as choas can result with uprooting of the system. All revolutions come from the youngsters. they are foot soldeirs for good or bad to happen.

2) On a whole Indian males do less rapes than western counterparts for all sophistry and arguments. Indian male is still respects women far better than western ones. Bollywood types take their skills from western coungterparts with suitable Indianisation. They are copycats in everything. Why leave this part out of so called sexual liberation.
This is will change with changing societal mores. Not too much concerned. Producers want profits, they do what sells to the mass market.

3) arranged marriages vs love marriages-- OMG-- never ends for some. love marriages came "accidentally" into western societies due to economic reasons mainly not due to some brilliant person or work or system over time. western countries have high rapes due to love marriages-- sexual liberation, mingling of sexes have contributed to this sad situation. It has gone far extreme. It is often said that there are less virgin girls after 18 years in west. That is every girl is raped ( per unicef definition). they have 2 or more relations with dissatiscation, beatings, fights, repeated rapes etc before they settle into a mature relation ship later. Over 1/3 and above have this issue. unicef documents that younger age of child marriage more violence in developing countries-- this is also the case with westren society. but the data is not clubbed with non white societies. Among other societies we dont have proper data related to middle east where it is sanctioned by mullahs. No news about china.
arranged marriages have their strenghts and weakness, Indians have continually devised innovative ways to make the best of it. Indians have a very old robust civilisation hence surviving still due to its systems changing with times. others have withered to father time.
Personal experience-- A co worker(pure khanite) recently had a boy. Just talking, she said it bettre to have a boy than a girl as I informed about our due arrival later. She matter of fact said " you dont know what it is to be a girl particluarly as a teenage one here". The same was told in different ways by at least 3 other people(all pure khanites). 2 of them said they would like the Indian style of searching for their children marriage- particluarly the arranged cum love marriage types which is becoming fashinable now in India. they want some sort of control over their children.
4) feminine liberalism has gone off to extreme in west - one of the many factors leading to high divorce rates and sexula promiscuity, high STDs, teenage pregnancy(rape) etc. in fact IIRC feminine liberalism has some of its genesis from Indian history of treatmet of women. This was U turned later in khanland. I believe this was stated by RM with examples.

5) The brutality of rape directly correlates with lawlessness of the city. This more likely to happen when there is poor economy, large unemployed youth population loitering in streets worsens the situation. lawlessness breeds more violence as criminals have a free run. youngsters join the crowd to have fun intially later become part of it by experience. Similar things have happened in west which got reduced with better policing and economy.

Overall the solutions are simple but not implemented due to politics obviously---

1) Improve economy to bring the down unemployment. will reduce loitering and groping to great extent.
2) Improve basic infrastructure- roads, power, traffic, education, nutrition of girl child, gender sensitisation etc etc in general
3) streamline the police with sensitisation to women crimes-- everyone has said it. women should not feel they have been raped a second time.
4) streamline the judiciary- again the same as above.
5) Mass politicians with spine-- current crop of duffers have no spine. MMS and others are not elected ones but selected to keep seat warm for the biggest duffer of all. mass based politicians in general quickly sense the pulse better than selected ones. they also show better spine. sheila at least ahd the temerity to meet the protestors where they were agitating. MMS was tv studios. sg and rg the worst of all despite being elected.
Here mass politicans with good heart like NaMo can do wonders with improving the above all the points. Gujarat is definitely a better example of the all what is wrong with congis rule.
6) last but not the least -- people should take part whole heartedly in elections which come sonce in 5 years and not sit with their a*ses at home.

Overall I do not believe that society/culture is bad, has to change and all that bunkum. It is pure unadulterated BS.
do the above as everyone has commented, things will naturally change.

3) and 4) can be down on war footing
1) and 2) taking few years to achieve.
5) and 6) it is upto people to bring up such politicans into ruling govts.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby Arjun » 04 Jan 2013 11:53

SriKumar wrote: Only the current public pressure might have any chance of effecting this change, as in, not giving tickets to people with rape charges.

How is this issue handled in the US and Western democracies ? Are folks who have criminal charges filed against them, but which are as yet unproven, disallowed to contest in elections ?

While I appreciate the thought process behind the idea- isn't India also a country where parties would go to any extent to win and therefore not be averse to dirty tricks aimed at filing false charges ?

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby PrasadZ » 04 Jan 2013 12:44

krisna wrote:http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1386565#p1386565
(E) Endemic mass lewdness, stalking, harassment, groping culture prevalent

This is a major reason for women to feel unsafe in India. Reason are as simple as it can be. population and crowds.


Cities by population density show Manila, Ahmedabad and Chennai with high populations and high density comparable to Delhi. Yet, none of them have either the reputation nor the stats of Delhi when it comes to
(E) Endemic mass lewdness, stalking, harassment, groping culture prevalent

krisna, your broken windows postwas spot on, would love to hear more on that !

krisna wrote:How to solve it --
1) Improve economic conditions--very common by youngsters who are unemeployed. By reducing the free time to loiter it can be reduced enormously but not completely. educational reforms so that many youngsters will have job oriented courses etc.by creating job opportunities

agreed, prosperity reduces crime by disincentivising and also, by making policing affordable

krisna wrote:2) On a whole Indian males do less rapes than western counterparts for all sophistry and arguments. Indian male is still respects women far better than western ones.

Heck No, IMO :shock:
Indian men are no worser or better than those of any other nation or culture.

krisna wrote:3) arranged marriages vs love marriages-- OMG-- never ends for some. love marriages came "accidentally" into western societies due to economic reasons mainly not due to some brilliant person or work or system over time.

Given the wide prevalence of love marriages, arranged marriage is, clearly, an agricultural society construct. Indic societies have memories of other methods but I guess a lot of the railing against it goes to the same point you make
arranged marriages have their strenghts and weakness, Indians have continually devised innovative ways to make the best of it.
One of the innovations is "free will matches" or "arranged love" matches. But these need young couples to be allowed to meet the opposite sex and that remains anathema in far too many cultures in India. Sad, when you realise that Indic cultures do not have a religious sanction (unlike others) for arranged marriages; in fact, this, itself, was an innovation to meet changed circumstances.

krisna wrote:It is often said that there are less virgin girls after 18 years in west. That is every girl is raped ( per unicef definition).

In the child abuse study posted earlier, there is a table on page 8 that shows child marriage under a different row to rape. Excluding them doesnt make a significant difference to the numbers. Clearly, prevalence of child marriage does not reduce rape statistics.


krisna wrote:unicef documents that younger age of child marriage more violence in developing countries-- this is also the case with westren society.
Ummm, i dont see where UNICEF equates child marriage to rape in this document. It seems to me that they make the case against child marriage purely in the context of human rights - that a child is just not able to enter knowingly and willingly into a life long contract. But maybe i missed it .. ?

krisna wrote:but the data is not clubbed with non white societies. Among other societies we dont have proper data related to middle east where it is sanctioned by mullahs. No news about china.

True :evil:
But I dont think that provides much comfort. In the same doc, you could use Vietnam as a proxy for China and Yemen as a proxy for the wider middle east. India is better than Yemen, worser than Vietnam. I know I dont care about being better than middle east, they are not a useful metric for Indic society anyway.

krisna wrote:arranged marriages have their strenghts and weakness, Indians have continually devised innovative ways to make the best of it. Indians have a very old robust civilisation hence surviving still due to its systems changing with times. others have withered to father time.
Personal experience-- A co worker(pure khanite) recently had a boy. Just talking, she said it bettre to have a boy than a girl as I informed about our due arrival later. She matter of fact said " you dont know what it is to be a girl particluarly as a teenage one here". The same was told in different ways by at least 3 other people(all pure khanites). 2 of them said they would like the Indian style of searching for their children marriage- particluarly the arranged cum love marriage types which is becoming fashinable now in India. they want some sort of control over their children.
4) feminine liberalism has gone off to extreme in west - one of the many factors leading to high divorce rates and sexula promiscuity, high STDs, teenage pregnancy(rape) etc. in fact IIRC feminine liberalism has some of its genesis from Indian history of treatmet of women. This was U turned later in khanland. I believe this was stated by RM with examples.

If friends can help in finding or choosing a match, so can family.

krisna wrote:5) The brutality of rape directly correlates with lawlessness of the city. This more likely to happen when there is poor economy, large unemployed youth population loitering in streets worsens the situation. lawlessness breeds more violence as criminals have a free run. youngsters join the crowd to have fun intially later become part of it by experience. Similar things have happened in west which got reduced with better policing and economy.

Couldnt agree more !
I only disagree where you posit BJP or NaMo as a panacea to the country's ills in your list

krisna wrote:Overall the solutions are simple but not implemented due to politics obviously---

1) Improve economy to bring the down unemployment. will reduce loitering and groping to great extent.
2) Improve basic infrastructure- roads, power, traffic, education, nutrition of girl child, gender sensitisation etc etc in general
3) streamline the police with sensitisation to women crimes-- everyone has said it. women should not feel they have been raped a second time.
4) streamline the judiciary- again the same as above.
5) Mass politicians with spine-- current crop of duffers have no spine. MMS and others are not elected ones but selected to keep seat warm for the biggest duffer of all. mass based politicians in general quickly sense the pulse better than selected ones. they also show better spine. sheila at least ahd the temerity to meet the protestors where they were agitating. MMS was tv studios. sg and rg the worst of all despite being elected.
Here mass politicans with good heart like NaMo can do wonders with improving the above all the points. Gujarat is definitely a better example of the all what is wrong with congis rule.
6) last but not the least -- people should take part whole heartedly in elections which come sonce in 5 years and not sit with their a*ses at home.

Overall I do not believe that society/culture is bad, has to change and all that bunkum. It is pure unadulterated BS.
do the above as everyone has commented, things will naturally change.

3) and 4) can be down on war footing
1) and 2) taking few years to achieve.
5) and 6) it is upto people to bring up such politicans into ruling govts.

But this is an excellent post and I thought it would help to quote extensively from it

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby Sanku » 04 Jan 2013 13:31

Strongly disagree with both.

lakshmikanth wrote:The end-picture (not solution) as far as seeing women as equals contains the following

1) Women are as productive as males and get compensated equally, this would liberate them from any sort of bondage.


I find the above very sexist frankly. The end-picture should be of seeing women "higher" rather than equally -- and for the same, the first thing that is needed is to learn to value the traditional roles that a woman brings to the table.

We do a great disservice to women by trying to say "women are equal to men if they are like men" Women value need to be understood and celebrated in ways which are inherently women centric. Not to try and force fit into some "man" format.

The above is a US/West (over 60s to now) corrupted world view, born out of west inability to understand more than a SINGLE narrow well defined model of "this is right otherwise it is wrong" -- coupled with Xism basic misogynist focus and second class status of women roles in post Constantine Europe.

This has given the west today a dysfunctional society, dysfunctional marriages, dysfunctional parenthood, dysfunctional birth rates.

In short a society headed for hell -- and on steroids. I have no wish to have India make all the mistakes that the west did and is trying to figure out solutions for.

I would very much rather have a system where we truly understand and celebrate such things as motherhood, women's role in family building and instead of inherently seeing it as secondary (like you have done) -- build a value system which values and celebrates the same.

2) Women and men explore each other freely and consensually with society keeping its nose out of that.

#2 will happen only if caste based arranged marriages go away. Or more importantly caste and religion do not occupy the primary spot in the national consciousness and discourse.


Again death wishes, at least in the form mentioned. The above is a "individual is responsible for individual, society has no place" meme is another of the drains that the west is going down in.

The point to understand is that every human interaction has a societal impact and every societal move and results on individual human level.

A boy is not only a boy, he is a son, often a father, brother, etc etc... Explore freely and consensually and god damn the consequences (because oh there are always emotional, mental and physical consequences) -- is a selfish, shortsighted and is the way to date rapes (often unreported and unaddressable, primarily because no one gives a damn), teenage pregnancies etc.

So net net -- thanks, but no thanks, these are solutions worse than the problems.
Last edited by Sanku on 04 Jan 2013 13:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby Sanku » 04 Jan 2013 13:37

ramana/Sanjay Kaul wrote: Underserved areas with non- existent bus networks,


Sanjay Kaul as a BJP member on ground, obviously shows insight an clarity missing from the chatterati class, and therefore nails the problem to a great extent.

I would however like to extend his argument--

The genesis of governance deficiency starts even a step before, a number of these areas, are actually "off the map" literally. They are often squatter colonies, built by huge influx of population into cities, before civic system could react (some time it is slow, but that is not the only reason) -- often housing illegal immigrants, often in violation of every possible town/zoning laws (which will be fixed 30 years later be regularizing them), often by INC to settle vote banks.

The core is unversed large populations being used as vote banks (regardless of religion)

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby PrasadZ » 04 Jan 2013 14:15

Sanku wrote:I would however like to extend his argument--

The genesis of governance deficiency starts even a step before, a number of these areas, are actually "off the map" literally. They are often squatter colonies, built by huge influx of population into cities, before civic system could react (some time it is slow, but that is not the only reason) -- often housing illegal immigrants, often in violation of every possible town/zoning laws (which will be fixed 30 years later be regularizing them), often by INC to settle vote banks.

The core is unversed large populations being used as vote banks (regardless of religion)


Similar migrations have occured and continue to occur in Mumbai and Chennai - "vote banking" has been noted in these cities as well but both cities have tended to be safer for women (note that I mean "safer" by Indian standards and I do not believe a comparison to LA or NY is useful in this context, even if they do have hispanic migration).
My question is : Is mass transit run by private networks, like in Delhi, more likely to end up in the hands of corrupt politicians and compromise public safety ? If yes, maybe, we should be ranking political parties on whether they are willing and able to set up and efficiently run a half decent public transport network.

We are not America and all Indians will not their own automobiles in my lifetime. Mass transit is necessary to Indian conditions and those who provide it must be rewarded IMO. Long before it became "rape capital", Delhi was notorious for their bus fatalities (old timers would remember the regular reporting of delhi buses. Perhaps, street safety has a positive correlation to the extent of government provided road transport services in the Indian context .. ?

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby lakshmikanth » 04 Jan 2013 14:19

Sanku wrote:Strongly disagree with both.

lakshmikanth wrote:The end-picture (not solution) as far as seeing women as equals contains the following

1) Women are as productive as males and get compensated equally, this would liberate them from any sort of bondage.


I find the above very sexist frankly. The end-picture should be of seeing women "higher" rather than equally -- and for the same, the first thing that is needed is to learn to value the traditional roles that a woman brings to the table.

We do a great disservice to women by trying to say "women are equal to men if they are like men" Women value need to be understood and celebrated in ways which are inherently women centric. Not to try and force fit into some "man" format.


The bolded part is Utopia, and also assumes that such a value system will exists only if men allow for it (since women already know the value they bring to table), which I find sexist. I dont know about you, but I am done with Utopian solutions and I am in search of a practical solution, which is to empowering women ALONG with educating the male. In no way should she be dependent on the male.

Here is why I call your solution utopia: Even if the 99% of the males think of her dependence on them as a great service to her duty, there will be the 1% who think that her dependence on males as weakness. In such a case it is prudent to arm women to be independent, which requires her to be as productive as males. Let her be different, but she should be independent.

Sanku wrote:
Again death wishes, at least in the form mentioned. The above is a "individual is responsible for individual, society has no place" meme is another of the drains that the west is going down in.

The point to understand is that every human interaction has a societal impact and every societal move and results on individual human level.

A boy is not only a boy, he is a son, often a father, brother, etc etc... Explore freely and consensually and god damn the consequences (because oh there are always emotional, mental and physical consequences) -- is a selfish, shortsighted and is the way to date rapes (often unreported and unaddressable, primarily because no one gives a damn), teenage pregnancies etc.

So net net -- thanks, but no thanks, these are solutions worse than the problems.


Human's are animals, animals have carnal desires which formed early on in their evolution and hence are part of the lower (involuntary) brain. Sex is one such desire. Suppressing that will only cause perversion (and violent agression in males). The more you try to control the desires the more perversion you will get. Infact in uppity Britainnia of the 1600 sex with goats was very common, coz sex again was very repressed. It is a scientific fact that lower brain functions (sexual desire, anger, fight or fight etc ) cannot be suppressed by upper brain activities (like thoughts, discipline) and what not.

You can try to resist, it will only be futile.

I would anyday prefer a sexually adjusted, mature society rather than a repressed, sexually tense one (such as India).

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby Arjun » 04 Jan 2013 14:58

PrasadZ wrote:Heck No, IMO :shock:
Indian men are no worser or better than those of any other nation or culture.

Why is this a matter of opinion ? Shouldn't the answer be determined based on statistics?

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby Sanku » 04 Jan 2013 15:41

PrasadZ wrote:Similar migrations have occured and continue to occur in Mumbai and Chennai - "vote banking" has been noted in these cities as well but both cities have tended to be safer for women


No not Chennai, not by far. Mumbai yes, but not Chennai. You will have to go to Delhi and Chennai to see the difference in variety and scale of influx, and the effect of NCR on Delhi.

You can also look up the stats
http://itpi.org.in/files/oct3_11.pdf

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... mk&cad=rja

15 Mar 2012 – After recording a staggering 47 per cent growth in population between 1991 and 2001, Delhi's decadal pace of population growth has slowed ...


Also the other cities in India are not necessarily different than Delhi, Delhi gets a lot of bad rap, but again statistics show that Delhi is not particularly worse than other cities. However Delhi being the capital, gets more eyeballs and is held to higher standards

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby Sanku » 04 Jan 2013 15:51

lakshmikanth wrote:The bolded part is Utopia, and also assumes that such a value system will exists only if men allow for it (since women already know the value they bring to table), which I find sexist


No it assumes no such thing, in fact you have assumed that women already know the value they bring to the table, IMVHO that is not true.

Further more this is not utopian at all, this is basic and is necessary, your arbitary characterization of what should be true is the root of the problem.


I dont know about you, but I am done with Utopian solutions and I am in search of a practical solution, which is to empowering women ALONG with educating the male. In no way should she be dependent on the male.


The above for example is both morall and ethically wrong, (trying a segerated society of the mind) but is also simply impractical, in no way either men or women are going to be independent of each other or others of their own sex. The whole idea is wacky science fiction from Asimov (look it up)

Here is why I call your solution utopia: Even if the 99% of the males think of her dependence on them as a great service to her duty, there will be the 1% who think that her dependence on males as weakness. In such a case it is prudent to arm women to be independent, which requires her to be as productive as males. Let her be different, but she should be independent.


Okay since when does the tail wag the dog? Since when does the overall 99% of the society make rules and live according to what 1% want it to?

This is bizzaree.

Human's are animals, animals have carnal desires which formed early on in their evolution and hence are part of the lower (involuntary) brain. Sex is one such desire. Suppressing that will only cause perversion (and violent agression in males). .


Okay may be you didnt get the memo, but humans have been trying to be "more than the lowest common denominator in animal instincts" since about 100,000 years now since first societies were formed and humans stopped by hunter gathers.

Maybe your solution would work just right for them, since there were no relationships, no society to uphold, no crimes (other than of passion), no concept of laws other than that of the jungle etc etc.

In a society, humans learn to deal with balancing primal forces with rules and responsibilities in give and take -- and no a solution of the problems of society is not to become animals again.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby PrasadZ » 04 Jan 2013 16:44

Sanku wrote:Also the other cities in India are not necessarily different than Delhi, Delhi gets a lot of bad rap, but again statistics show that Delhi is not particularly worse  than other cities. However Delhi being the capital, gets more eyeballs and is held to higher standards


This is an old blog post, Sanku, that i was guided to by BRF and i had bookmarked.
Andhra Pradesh has figured consistently in 2008, 2009 and 2010 as the state with highest incidences of crime against women; and Delhi, similarly has figured as the city with highest incidences of crime against women in the years 2008, 2009 and 2010.


Delhi is an outlier in india for the extent of its street violence. 

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby Arjun » 04 Jan 2013 16:57

Sanku wrote:Also the other cities in India are not necessarily different than Delhi, Delhi gets a lot of bad rap, but again statistics show that Delhi is not particularly worse than other cities.

I don't think that's true...Delhi is much worse than any other major metro in terms of per capita rape statistics or for that matter most other crime statistics.

But what is true is that per capita crime seems to be fairly high across the cities of North-Central India and North East India. There IS something different about either law enforcement or culture in those parts.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby SaiK » 04 Jan 2013 19:33

The equality is in freedom, common civil rights, social and family values, wealth distribution, etc. Equality is not in terms of physical strength, mental strength, and other biological traits. Any thing that is by nature, is nature. Take it at that real/actual values.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby Sanjay » 04 Jan 2013 19:50

Saravana's post is very interesting and informative. I would add an additional point regarding the physical molestation of women - if I am not mistaken (and please somebody correct me if I am wrong) this is endemic on crowded public transport. It is not the lone assailant attacking a woman on a quite bus or train carriage (that happens too) but the anonymity of the crowd and the close contact provides the opportunity for these men
.
However, what about the verbal harassment ? Comments of the most disgusting nature are leveled at women just walking by.

In the 1960s my mother was subjected to both physical and verbal abuse by Indian men in Mumbai and Delhi.

That was then. Now we have got to the point where women are afraid to do their daily tasks.

Is any city less prone (forget rapes for a moment) to this verbal abuse and molestation of women ?

The unfortunate thing about this entire discussion is that we have not found any solutions.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby SaiK » 04 Jan 2013 20:03

To tackle crowded bus, we need to increase the number of buses. And restrict the number of standing passengers to not more than 10 or 15. Only front doors are open, and driver/conductor controls entries aided by electronic counters and ticket issuing system. Still, this is only a structural correction for safe public travel.

For example, my mother was chain snatched by a woman criminal standing next to her in public transport.. could have avoided if people get some space and freedom to move and see things around while traveling.

small steps, but reaps comprehensive big values in terms of prevention of crime and increase safety.

bottom: We need to increase personal safety space. Numero Uno point for all citizens.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby prahaar » 04 Jan 2013 20:39

Posting the video of Mohan Bhagwat's speech:


URL http://youtu.be/aGu8nNLfpyE in this thread, since I though it may be more relevant in this thread to dissect the speech.

Verbatim translation apart: the take for me is that people need to have proper sanskar at home (at the minimum) to have better behavior in society in general and with women in particular. There was no mention of "no rapes in villages versus rapes only in cities".

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby chaanakya » 04 Jan 2013 21:21

quote/

Rising incidences of crimes against Women is deep cause of concern to every concerned citizens of India as violence against Women is a violation of the fundamental right to life as guaranteed by the Constitution. It is seen that Women bear the brunt of violence disproportionately, and are less empowered to effectively avoid/resist the risk of violence. The most specific points which need to be focused upon is the mindset of violence and bias against Women and delayed ineffective response by law enforcement agencies. Mindset of violence is deep rooted in traditions along with social, moral and cultural beliefs tangled with economic dimensions. Violence is the outcome of these intertwined attitudinal and beliefs problems coupled with perceived subordinate position of these vulnerable sections in the society. Equally striking is lack of effective response of Criminal justice System in preventing and combating these crimes. Despite having number of legislations and signing of many international agreements, very marginal comprehensive progress has been made which can be attributed to weak implementation of existing legislations. There is also urgent need for sensitization of law enforcement agencies and development of specific SOPs to address some of the core issues relating to problems in attitudes, values and beliefs to prevent them from being insular and biased towards the distortions of society as well as change their professional approach and make them more sympathetic and compassionate to cases against women.

Crime against women has been on the rise in-spite of provisions in IPC, Cr.P.C and specific legislations for protection of women. NCRB data shows rise in rape cases was 9.2% more than 2010. The cases of cruelty to married women and dowry related deaths reported during 2011 also showed an increase of 5.4% and 2.7% respectively.

One reason for continued occurrences for such crimes can be absence of fear of laws. This may be due to reasons such as improper investigation, coupled with judicial delays. Some of the statistics regarding delays in disposal of cases are highly disturbing. During the year 2011, only 16 percent of the rape cases pending for trial could be completed and at the end of the year about 79,468 cases were still pending for trial at various courts. It is the same story in respect of other crimes viz. 13% disposal rate in cases of kidnapping and abduction of women and children, 16% in dowry deaths, 10% in cases relating to cruelty by husband and relatives etc. There is huge backlog of cases in various categories. For e.g., 29,669 pending cases in respect of dowry deaths; 3,39,902 cases in cases of cruelty by husband and relatives, 17,468 cases under Dowry Prohibition Act etc. there is an urgent need for a concerted effort to minimise judicial delays through special courts, fast tracking of such cases etc.

The low conviction rate may be yet another reason for the increase in crime against women. The NCRB data for the year 2011 shows a conviction rate of 26.4% for cases of rape, 27.7% for cases of molestation and 45.8% for cases of sexual harassment. Effective and timely investigation leading to conviction in a timely manner may act as a deterrent in such crimes.

Steps that need to be taken to provide a greater measure of protection to the women and in particular to prevent incidents of crimes against them :

• Adopt appropriate measures for swift and salutary punishment to the persons found guilty of violence against women

• No delay in registration of FIRs

• Improve the quality of investigations

• Minimize delays in investigations of crime against women, especially in heinous crimes like rape

• Setting up of Rape Crisis Centres (RCC) and Sexual Assault Treatment Units (SATUs)

• Establishment of Women Help Line

• Increase Women Police Stations and setting up of Mahila/Children help desk in each police station

• Increase percentage of Women Police upto 33% in State Police

• Appointment of Dowry Prohibition Orders at all police Stations


• Set up ‘Crime against Women Cells’ in districts

• Advised to undertake gender sensitization of the police personnel and special women courts.

• Increase the number of beat constables;

• Increase the number of police help booths / kiosks, especially in remote and lonely stretches;

• Increase police patrolling, especially during nights;

• Posting police officers especially women, fully equipped with policing infrastructure in crime- prone areas in adequate number


Civic administration can make the public spaces safe for women through a number of measures. It is only when safety is seen as an integral part of the city functioning that there will be an impact in reducing crime and violence; therefore safety needs to be an integral part planning, management and governance of the city. Some of the factors which contribute to such spaces being unsafe for women are


• Public transport including bus stops/stations etc

• Use of drugs and alcohol in the vicinity

• Poor infrastructure (street lights, poorly maintained public parks etc).

• Absence of effective policing Steps which can be taken to address the above issues include:

• Improved infrastructure at bus stops, metro stations and subways: Enhanced lighting, electronic signage and audio announcements at major bus stops.

• Clear written and audio announcement of helpline numbers.

• Electronic messaging on women’s safety inside buses and at bus stops, as well as billboards outside buses .

• Visible police presence: Increased visible presence of marshals or police personnel at busy bus stops and metro stations, supplemented by plainclothes policemen and women. PCR vans to be parked near busy public transit points, especially during rush hours, and at night..


• Autos and taxis: Making the display of auto and taxi drivers’ identification, service standards and helpline numbers mandatory, with random checks by mobile teams to enforce the same.

• Women- and youth-led Committees to monitor responses to violence and crime, and encouraging greater involvement of female elected officials and urban professionals, produce results.

In the long run change in the mindset of the society is crucial for addressing the issue of crime against women. It is the patriarchal attitude and stereotyping of women which has led to the normalisation of violence against women in society. As schools and other educational institutions are effective platforms for creating awareness of such laws among children of our country, States would need to include material on issues of crimes against women and related laws in the school curriculum.


The Code of Criminal Procedure (Amendment) Act 2008 has led to the incorporation of section 357 relating to Victim Compensation Scheme wherein “Every State Government in co-ordination with the Central Government shall prepare a scheme for providing funds for the purpose of compensation to the victim or dependents who have suffered loss or injury as a result of the crime and who requires rehabilitation”. Only 11 States have effectively set up the Victim Compensation Scheme.

Challenges in combating Crime Against Women

Various forms of crimes and violence against women has increased and requires urgent and comprehensive measures to prevent and combat it

Main Concerns are :

• Increase in Total Crimes and Violence Against Women

• Increasing in no. of rapes and sexual assault cases

• Growing perception amongst women for insecurity, threat to freedom, curtailing of mobility and no gender insensitivity of Law Enforcement Agencies and other redressal mechanisms


• Preventive Measures
• Under-reporting of Crimes


• Delay in Registration of Crimes and then Poor and delayed investigations

• Delay in Filing of Charge-sheets in Courts

• Low conviction rate in cases of violence against women

• Mindset of Violence in Society towards Women

• Skewed sex ratio

• Female Foeticide and under reporting of these cases

• Poor Institutional Mechanisms like Mahila help desk, help lines all women police stations etc

• Poor representation of women in police force

• Attitudinal and Awareness issues in Society and Law enforcement agencies

• Capacity building of law enforcement agencies

• Ineffective Implementation of existing Legislations and penal provisions

• Need for creating more safe spaces, transport etc. for women

Strategies to eliminate violence against women


• Understanding Mindset of Violence in Society and Taking Measures to change deep rooted biases and stereotypes by debates, discourse and awareness in Society through interventions like gender sensitivity issues in Educational Curricula, Using Media, Positive Role Models and Brand Ambassadors.

• Enhancing And Facilitating Accessibility to Police Stations

• Confidence building measures by police so as women register cases of crimes

• No delay in registration of FIRs

• Speedy and quality investigations


• Enhancing Infrastructures like Al women police Stations, Helplines, better police patrolling, more mobile police vans

• Recruiting more women in police

• Effective Enforcement of Existing Legislations and other provisions

• Increasing conviction

• Time bound action

• Fast Track Courts

• High visibility of deterrent punishments

• Higher Penalties

• Protocols for police and investigative agencies, medical functionaries, legal aid agencies

• Swift compensation and rehabilitation schemes for victims of rape

• Monitoring and evaluation of implementation of laws for women

• Creating safe public spaces for women

• Using technology innovations by planners and law agencies

• Sensitization and awareness generation among Police and Administrative machinery

• Sensitization of judiciary and lawyers


The Prioritization of steps to be focused on are :

Sensitization and awareness are the primary measures that are needed to counter the growing incidences of crime against Women, Children and other vulnerable sections of the society. these steps must be two pronged, one targeted towards Police and Administrative machinery, other towards increasing public awareness.

Police : It is strongly advocated to undertake intensive gender sensitization programme in Police forces so as to raise their sensitivity and awareness to the issues of Women. The National Commission for Women have been undertaking visits to various States to review the status of women and has observed that filing of FIRs even in heinous cases continues to be a problem. Some other specific points raised are :

• Sensitizing the law enforcement machinery towards crime against women by way of well structured training programmes, meetings and seminars etc., for police personnel at all levels as well as other functionaries of the criminal justice system. Such programmes may be incorporated in the syllabus of various Police Training Academies at all levels.

• Concrete steps to be taken to increase awareness in the administration and among the police in particular, regarding crime against women, and take steps not only to tackle such crimes but also deal sensitively with the ensuing trauma.

Public : It is also advocated to engage public and NGOs to spread awareness.

• For improving general awareness on legislations, mechanisms in place for safety and protection of women, the concerned department of the State Government must, inter-alia, take following steps:

a. Create awareness through print and electronic media;

b. Develop a community monitoring system to check cases of violence, abuse and exploitation and take necessary steps to curb the same;

c. Involving the Community at large in creating and spreading such awareness; and

d. Organize legal literacy and legal awareness camps.

e. Take up with the Education Departments for the introduction of gender sensitivity into the general curriculum

• Explore the possibility of associating NGOs working in the area of combating crime against women. Citizens groups and NGOs should be encouraged to increase awareness about gender issues in society and help bring to light violence against women and also assist the police in the investigation of crime against women. Close coordination between the police and the NGOs dealing with the interests of women may be ensured.

• Appointment of Brand Ambassadors : Carry out mass media campaigns of sensitization of gender related issues through a targeted approach using eminent personalities/role models for advocacy of these issues to the various targeted groups of public due to their appeal.



Improving Conviction Rate :
Conviction rate should be increased through methodical and systematic investigation of cases followed up with time bound judicial action resulting in conviction. Justice should not only be done but also should be seen as delivered in quickest possible time so as to serve as a deterrent. Court monitoring can be taken up from the time an FIR is filed through an IT based court management system as has been done in Andhra Pradesh which has led to a quantum in the quality of police performance in the courts which in a pilot in Vijayawada Commissionerate saw a jump in conviction rate from 24% to 58% within 6 months alone. This will improve the ownership of the SHOs and increase their contact with the Prosecutors and public involved and reduces manpower required.

COMMUNITY POLICING :

• To provide for improved community support for the maintenance and enforcement of law and order in the community.

• To prevent crimes and to provide security to the community by assisting in patrolling at night in crime prone areas.

• To educate the public about crime prevention strategies and basic steps for their safety and security.

• To ensure timely flow of crime related intelligence from the community to the police and set the law into motion in the case of unreported crimes.

• To ensure communal harmony through collective efforts particularly during festivals, religious processions, public functions, meetings etc.

• To co-ordinate and collaborate with the existing peace committees, NGOs and other agencies functioning for maintenance of peace and tranquility and community empowerment in the local area.

• To attend to petty quarrels/disputes and try to resolve them amicably for reducing tension and violence in the locality so that these do not aggravate into serious problems.

• To create awareness against crime and atrocities on women and children, awareness against narcotics drugs and illicit liquor etc.

• To provide volunteers to attend to the natural calamities, communal riots and help victims of crime etc.

• To assist in locating and reporting to the police strangers in the locality and other persons of doubtful character.
• Rendering necessary help to the police in traffic control.

• To assist police in launching drives for tenant verification, servant verification etc.

Some Common Measures


• Improved infrastructure at bus stops, metro stations and subways: Enhanced lighting, electronic signage and audio announcements at major bus stops.

• Clear written and audio announcement of helpline numbers.

• Electronic messaging on women’s safety inside buses and at bus stops, as well as billboards outside buses.

• Visible police presence: Increased visible presence of marshals or police personnel at busy bus stops and metro stations, supplemented by plainclothes policemen and women. PCR vans to be parked near busy public transit points, especially during rush hours, and at night.

• Autos and taxis: Making the display of auto and taxi drivers’ identification, service standards and helpline numbers mandatory, with random checks by mobile teams to enforce the same.

• Women- and youth-led Committees to monitor responses to violence and crime, and encouraging greater involvement of female elected officials and urban professionals, produce results.

• In the long run change in the mindset of the society is crucial for addressing the issue of crime against women.

It is the patriarchal attitude and stereotyping of women which has led to the normalisation of violence against women in society. As schools and other educational institutions are effective platforms for creating awareness of such laws among children of our country, they should include material on issues of crimes against women and related laws in the school curriculum.

unquote

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby chaanakya » 04 Jan 2013 22:13

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 888066.cms



Central and state governments failed to evolve a consensus on death penalty for rape convicts on Friday even as they seem to have agreed on the definition of juvenile by bringing down the age bar to 16 from 18 years.

The day-long meeting of chief secretaries and DGPs, convened by the Centre in the wake of the gang rape of a girl in Delhi, discussed threadbare various ways to check crime against women and agreed to take steps for protection of women and initiating speedy trial and conviction of criminals.

"There is no consensus on amending the law to include capital punishment for rape. One or two chief secretaries have suggested but majority kept mum on the issue," said a senior officer who attended the meeting.


Home minister Sushilkumar Shinde said all suggestions, including death penalty for rape, put forward by the chief secretaries and DGPs would be considered by the central government.

The representatives of state governments and top home ministry officials said rape convicts should be sentenced to life till death without any leniency or parole.

Government had in December 4, 2012, introduced a bill in Parliament seeking to amend the Indian Penal Code, 1860, the Code of Criminal Procedure, 1973, and the Indian Evidence Act, 1872, by replacing the word 'rape' by the words 'sexual assault' to make the offence of sexual assault gender-neutral and also widening its scope. It proposes to enhance the punishment from the present seven years jail to life.

There was a general consensus on the definition of juvenile by bringing the age bar to 16 from 18 years in the conference.


One of the six accused in the Delhi gang rape case was juvenile and many people fear that he may escape punishment for the crime because of his juvenile status.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby chaanakya » 04 Jan 2013 22:21

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 890809.cms




"I wish I could have saved her,"
the friend, who was with the young woman on the fateful night, told Zee News.

The channel also identified him as Avaindra Pratap Pandey.


The 28-year-old, who is a software engineer, said that no one came forward to help them as they were dumped on the roadside semi-clad and bloodied.

"We were lying in the cold night for 20 minutes
. We had no clothes. Many cars and auto-rickshaws came and passed by us but no one stopped to offer us help. Even though I was crying for help," he said.

He also blamed police and hospital authorities.


"Three PCR (Police Control Room vans) came and they left. In the hospital, no one even thought of giving us a quilt," he added.
So much for DP PCR taking victim promptly to Hospital.

Recounting the brutal attack, the young man said the attackers also tried to "crush" them under the wheels of the bus.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby ramana » 04 Jan 2013 22:37

The fear is incorrect and is a red herring. The juvenile is also accused of the murder and not just the rape.
So what is the sentence for murder for a juvenile?
Chaankya I need to rely on you for this.


Folks I think a lot of secondary matters like culture and what Mohan Bhagwat said, who by the way has zilch impact on the framing of the law as BJP is not in power in the Center nor in any position to inflence the law being framed. The minute the minority BJP takes up a poistiong the secular brigade will oppose it even if its the right thing.


Lets focus on the particulars of the case:
- The girl was gangraped repeatdely in a moving private bus operating in Delhi streets with tinted windows and lights off.
- Bus was identified from the 'hafta' diary of a police constable
- Bus was repeatedly cited for violating the traffic police norms and repeatedly let off after paying a pittance of Rs 2000 as fine.

- Once the police were on the case they got their criminals in record time and the case is filed per due process of the law: adults charge in fast track court and juvenile in the juvenile court.
- For once the police have field a succint charge sheet and did not hit the court with dossas as the MHA is wont to do since the UPA took over.

------------------

Delhi Bullice brutality, political catterpillars tardiness, reluctance to show their accountability, Delhi CM trading charges etc are all secondary to the case at hand.
All these are political and need political soultions.
Awareness of "violence against women" has increased all over the country but some elements havent gotten the message eg. the Assam MLA.
We need to make women and men feel more safe in Delhi and all over India and this requires short term and long term remedies.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby Sanjay » 04 Jan 2013 23:28

chaanakya, that series of recommendations, has it been sent to Justice Verma ? His e-mail is justice.verma@nic.in

A bit of polishing would turn it into a viable set of recommendations for consideration. Very impressive.

As far as the lack of consensus on the death penalty for rape is concerned, I don't think that should be a hasty decision but a considered one.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby lakshmikanth » 04 Jan 2013 23:29

Sanku wrote:...snip...
This is bizzaree.
...snip....


Ok. Lets agree to disagree. Ty.

Theo_Fidel

Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby Theo_Fidel » 04 Jan 2013 23:59

Chanakya,

That is a excellent series of points. Should be a chapter in civics. Did you write it up?
If so one item I would add is

- increase police visibility.
- During night patrol police should have a flashing light car/man to increase visibility.
- Need proper mega-phones for beat cops.
- Need security cameras in all public areas.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby Sanku » 05 Jan 2013 00:00

Arjun wrote:
Sanku wrote:Also the other cities in India are not necessarily different than Delhi, Delhi gets a lot of bad rap, but again statistics show that Delhi is not particularly worse than other cities.

I don't think that's true...Delhi is much worse than any other major metro in terms of per capita rape statistics or for that matter most other crime statistics.
.


Folks, I am always very careful in making a statistical statement. I believe BRFites would vouch that my statements are usually quite accurate.

http://gurgaon.com/2012/11/05/how-do-in ... womenrape/

Image

http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2012 ... ot-really/

India’s “crime capital” turns out to be tourist hotspot Kochi which experiences 1,636 incidents for every 100,000 residents. In 2011, Delhi, was ranked 26 out of 53 cities, with a far lower rate of 289 incidents of crime per 100,000 residents.


In fact, in 2011, none of India’s biggest cities was in the top 10 for crime rates: Bangalore was at 17, Chennai at 35, Kolkata at 53, and Mumbai at 44.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby chaanakya » 05 Jan 2013 00:12

Theo_Fidel wrote:Chanakya,

That is a excellent series of points. Should be a chapter in civics. Did you write it up?
If so one item I would add is

- increase police visibility.
- During night patrol police should have a flashing light car/man to increase visibility.
- Need proper mega-phones for beat cops.
- Need security cameras in all public areas.

No, just being part of it. Though important to share with you all. May be some of my recommendations ( as I got from brf thanks to thread by harbans) may go into the final set/action
What all is being discussed here finds echo there.

Words are not enough, though.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby chaanakya » 05 Jan 2013 00:22

Sanjay wrote:chaanakya, that series of recommendations, has it been sent to Justice Verma ? His e-mail is justice.verma@nic.in

A bit of polishing would turn it into a viable set of recommendations for consideration. Very impressive.

As far as the lack of consensus on the death penalty for rape is concerned, I don't think that should be a hasty decision but a considered one.

Rape is still viewed s a Socially deviant behaviour. The possibility of misuse of death sentence is too high and esp politicians need to fear that. Hence the reluctance.
My idea is that when Rape ( gang rape) leads to death and permanent debilitation or incapacitation then it should lead to death.
Other convicts should get sentence of varying degree without premature release or remission etc. That is discussed. Expect many changes. We would get a New Law covering various aspects of sexual assault. Harbans idea of catagorisation would be done , not in the same way as he put it.
J. Verma has given Vishaka Judgement. He would take into account all these and finaal and distilled set of legislative recommendations would reach him in due course.
Other things would get into funded schemes.

The only thing we might never know why this incident happened. It was not rape simpliciter.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby chaanakya » 05 Jan 2013 00:37

ramana wrote:The fear is incorrect and is a red herring. The juvenile is also accused of the murder and not just the rape.
So what is the sentence for murder for a juvenile? None
Chaankya I need to rely on you for this.

He will be sent to Special Homes and kept under observation for the period till board thinks he is fit to integrate into the society.

Juvenile Justice Act amended in 2000 to increase the age from 15 to 18 for very valid reasons. but since when law is not misused.

10. Apprehension of juvenile in conflict with law.- (1) As soon as a juvenile in conflict with law is apprehended by police, he shall be placed under the charge of the special juvenile police unit or the designated police officer who shall immediately report the matter to a member of the Board.
(2) The State Government may make rules consistent with this Act,-
i. to provide for persons through whom ( including registered voluntary organisations) any juvenile in conflict with law may be produced before the Board;
ii. to provide the manner in which such juvenile may be sent to an observation home.

11. Control of custodian over juvenile .- Any person in whose charge a juvenile is placed in pursuance of this Act shall, while the order is in force have the control over the juvenile as he would have if he were his parents, and shall be responsible for his maintenance, and the juvenile shall continue in his charge for the period stated by competent authority, notwithstanding that he is claimed by his parents or any other person.

12. Bail of juvenile.- (1) When any person accused of a bailable or non-bailable offence, and apparently a juvenile, is arrested or detained or appears or is brought before a Board, such person shall, notwithstanding anything contained in the Code of Criminal Procedure, 1973 (2 of 1974) or in any other law for the time being in force, be released on bail with or without surety but he shall not be so released if there appear reasonable grounds for believing that the release is likely to bring him into association with any known criminal or expose him to moral, physical or psychological danger or that his release would defeat the ends of justice.

He will not be given bail, that is for sure as there would be danger to his life, not only from angry people but from his masters.

(2) When such person having been arrested is not released on bail under sub-section (1) by the officer incharge of the police station, such officer shall cause him to be kept only in an observation home in the prescribed manner until he can brought before a Board.

(3) When such person is not released on bail under sub-section (1) by the Board it shall, instead of committing him to prison, make an order sending him to an observation home or a place of safety for such period during the pendency of the inquiry regarding him as may be specified in the order.



Board is likely to order inquiry into his age. thereafter any decision to try him as adult or juvenile would be taken.

13. Information to parent, guardian or probation officer.- Where a juvenile is arrested, the officer incharge of the police station or the special juvenile police unit to which the juvenile is brought shall, as soon as may be after the arrest, inform-
(a) the parent or guardian of the juvenile , if he can be found, of such arrest and direct him to be present at the Board before which the juvenile will appear; and
(b) the probation officer of such arrest to enable him to obtain information regarding the antecedents and family background of the juvenile and other material circumstances likely to be of assistance to the Board for making the inquiry.

14. Inquiry by Board regarding juvenile.- Where a juvenile having been charged with the offence is produced before a Board, the Board shall hold the inquiry in accordance with the provisions of this Act and may make such order in relation to the juvenile as it deems fit:
Provided that an inquiry under this section shall be completed within a period of four months from the date of its commencement, unless the period is extended by the Board having regard to the circumstances of the case and in special cases after recording the reasons in writing for such extension.



15. Order that may be passed regarding juvenile.- (1) Where a Board is satisfied on inquiry that a juvenile has committed an offence, then notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained in any other law for the time being in force, the Board may, if it thinks so fit,-

(a) allow the juvenile to go home after advice or admonition following appropriate inquiry against and counselling to the parent or the guardian and the juvenile;
(b) direct the juvenile to participate in group counselling and similar activities;
(c) order the juvenile to perform community service;
(d) order the parent of the juvenile or the juvenile himself to pay a fine, if he is over fourteen years of age and earns money;

(e) direct the juvenile to be released on probation of good conduct and placed under the care of any parent, guardian or other fit person, on such parent, guardian or other fit person executing a bond, with or without surety, as the Board may require, for the good behaviour and well-being of the juvenile for any period not exceeding three years;

(f) direct the juvenile to be released on probation of good conduct and placed under the care of any fit institution for the good behaviour and well-being of the juvenile for any period not exceeding three years;


(g) make an order directing the juvenile to be sent to a special home,-
i. in the case of juvenile, over seventeen years but less than eighteen years of age for a period of not less than two years;


ii. in case of any other juvenile for the period until he ceases to be a juvenile :

Provided that the Board may, if it is satisfied that having regard to the nature of the offence and the circumstances of the case it is expedient so to do, for reasons to be recorded, reduce the period of stay to such period as it thinks fit.



Now you see why others would try to prove that it was he who committed the most serious gruesome act. I think it was Ram singh /Mukesh who was using spanner.

However the following provisions may be used.

16. Order that may not be passed against juvenile.-(1) Notwithstanding anything to the contrary contained in any other law for the time being in force, no juvenile in conflict with law shall be sentenced to death or life imprisonment, or committed to prison in default of payment of fine or in default of furnishing security :

Provided that where a juvenile who has attained the age of sixteen years has committed an offence and the Board is satisfied that the offence committed is of so serious in nature or that his conduct and behaviour have been such that it would not be in his interest or in the interest of other juvenile in a special home to send him to such special home and that none of the other measures provided under this Act is suitable or sufficient, the Board may order the juvenile in conflict with law to be kept in such place of safety and in such manner as it thinks fit and shall report the case for the order of the State Government.



(2) On receipt of a report from a Board under sub-section (1), the State Government may make such arrangement in respect of the juvenile as it deems proper and may order such juvenile to be kept under protective custody at such place and on such conditions as it thinks fit :
Provided that the period of detention so ordered shall not exceed the maximum period of imprisonment to which the juvenile could have been sentenced for the offence committed
.
Last edited by chaanakya on 05 Jan 2013 00:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby Arjun » 05 Jan 2013 00:48

Sanku wrote:Folks, I am always very careful in making a statistical statement. I believe BRFites would vouch that my statements are usually quite accurate.

http://gurgaon.com/2012/11/05/how-do-in ... womenrape/

Image

Yes, so in per capita rapes, Delhi is at least twice as high as any of the other top 6 metros.

The rest of your statistics relate to overall crimes against women- which include less serious 'eve teasing' types... If you take rape alone - Delhi beats the rest of the major metros hands down.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby Sanku » 05 Jan 2013 00:56

Arjun wrote:The rest of your statistics relate to overall crimes against women- which include less serious 'eve teasing' types... If you take rape alone - Delhi beats the rest of the major metros hands down.


Couple of things,

1) I do not see 2x difference between Delhi and Mumbai for rapes as hands down. Worse yes but not hands down.
2) Less serious crimes? What happened to the "broken glass" principle? Werent we discussing overall safety.

No Delhi has lesser per captia crime compared to other large cities, and has higher rapes compared to metros, but still much lesser compared to Kollams and Bhopals of the world.

This is another case of perception vs reality, with "safe" ChGardh being next to Delhi in reality.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby Sanjay » 05 Jan 2013 01:03

Does anyone have anything indicating the extent to which rape and/or other crimes against women are under-reported in India ?

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby member_20317 » 05 Jan 2013 01:03

Sanku ji, one of the P-sec on TV mentioned how a huge number of homeless children make their home in bigger cities like Delhi and what exactly they have to go through in terms of personal safety. His figure was 80000 kids.

OTOH in areas like Durg Bhilai or Bhopal not a soul would be visible after dark in most parts of the city.

Your comparisons are for unequal cities.

The crime situation in Delhi NCR is indeed very bad.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby member_20317 » 05 Jan 2013 01:06

Sanjay wrote:Does anyone have anything indicating the extent to which rape and/or other crimes against women are under-reported in India ?



You realise that would be entirely a set of perceptions, right?

How can anybody report on what is not reported. Mis-reporting perhaps with some due diligence but under-reporting can be anything one wants it to be.

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Re: Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Postby ramana » 05 Jan 2013 01:07

Sanjay, Somewhere in this thread a Judge was quoted about the statistics of reporting, charging, convictions. Please do look it up.


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