Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 29 Dec 2012 20:40

ManjaM wrote:There is a person by name Prakruthi Banvasi who lives around the Jayanagar area in Bangalore. Over the last decade he has become someone of a small legend by chasing and nabbing eve teasers around the Jayanagar area and handing them over to the police. He has even published a small ebook with his experiences in dealing with the issue. He was somewhat of an idol for me during my college days and remains to this day.
http://www.banwasi.com/html/ete1.html

I can only hope that among the thousands of protestors and candlelighters, there will be atleast 10 who take up direct action like Banwasi and clean up their respective localities.

Saar, I am interested in knowing what happens to these goons after they are arrested. How long are they locked up? I don't really trust the cops, they might just be letting them go after a "warning" and some hafta.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 29 Dec 2012 20:43

Let me note a small item here. The bald statistics say that women are raped in much higher numbers in the West than in India. All of us know this is not true. As a society we can't even be bothered to record the instances of rape that occur. If we are not outraged by that how can anyone expect us to deal with things like the status of women. We havn't even taken the first simple steps.

The other Elephant in the room is domestic rapes, violence against women begins at home. This culture of disrespect then spreads high and low, till the Police officer can laugh at a woman and tell her she needs to move on after a rape.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 29 Dec 2012 20:48

Two points which are of immediate concern are
1. Reform in Judicial system
2. Reform in Police system

Both comes under broader system of Criminal Justice System.

There are several reforms commission on both aspects. Most of the suggestion that could be made are made and lying buried under tons of other reports in GOI.

National Police Commission was set up by GOI in 1977 under Dharam Veera and it gave 8 reports lying somewhere in GOI.
The Govt set up a committe to examine its recommendations.
Here is an excerpt from Police Reforms Committee headed by none other than Sri Julio Rebeiro

Referring to its recommendations about the constitution of State Security Commission (SSC) the Committee suggests that this is not “to be taken as substituting our judgement for that of theworthy and wise men who were instrumental in making most profound and useful recommendations. If their intentions have to be achieved, their objectives attained and their goal realised, then some compromises and adjustments have to be made in public interest.”4

We do not agree. The present functioning of the police system in this country has been the result of all types of ‘compromises and adjustments’, which have been made with what is absolutely necessary to bring about police reforms. Compromises have been made not in public but private interests. In fact, three main pressure groups have obstructed police reforms in this country- the politicians, bureaucrats and in many cases the police officers themselves.

The Committee has referred to the “concern of the successive Ministers in the Ministry of Home Affairs, Government of India about the implementation of the NPC Report…”7 This concern, according to the Committee, is reflected in the letters sent by Shri Rajesh Pilot, Minister of State in the Ministry of Home Affairs in July, 1994; Shri Inderjit Gupta, Union Home Minister in April 1997 and by Shri L.K.Advani, Union Home Minister in May 1998 to the
Chief Ministers of all States/Union Territories, urging them to take action on the recommendations of the NPC. The Committee has tried to convey an impression as if the Central Government has been keen to bring about police reforms on the lines suggested by the NPC, but the State Governments have not shown even an inclination to consider the subject. This impression is ill founded.

While the State Governments have been stoically and consistently indifferent towards the recommendations of the NPC and even of their own State Police Commissions, the Central Government, except for occasional outbursts of sudden enthusiasm, has been equally lackadaisical in pursuing the subject with the State Governments.

So Srikumarji, your impression is not ill founded at all. But still we need to outline what is needed to be done and how best tom implement it.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 29 Dec 2012 20:52

KJoishy wrote:
ManjaM wrote:There is a person by name Prakruthi Banvasi who lives around the Jayanagar area in Bangalore. Over the last decade he has become someone of a small legend by chasing and nabbing eve teasers around the Jayanagar area and handing them over to the police. He has even published a small ebook with his experiences in dealing with the issue. He was somewhat of an idol for me during my college days and remains to this day.
http://www.banwasi.com/html/ete1.html

I can only hope that among the thousands of protestors and candlelighters, there will be atleast 10 who take up direct action like Banwasi and clean up their respective localities.
Saar, I am interested in knowing what happens to these goons after they are arrested. How long are they locked up? I don't really trust the cops, they might just be letting them go after a "warning" and some hafta.

ManjaM:
Did this person's activity have any positive effect on the incidence of eve-teasing in Jayanager area?

I feel this man is a man of action (and not words). More people like him would make this world a better place. Note that he acted irrespective of what the police finally did with the eve-teasers. If we see eve-teasing in our vicinity, as a group right-thinking people have to feel some responsibility to oppose it, like this man did. It cannot just be someone else's law-and-order problem.

One caveat: opposing eve-teasing can end up getting one killed, like it happened in Punjab 2 weeks ago where a policeman (SI?) got shot and killed for opposing persistent harassment of his sister (?). So, there are limits in what the average abdul can do. But this man from Jayanagar is a karamyogi.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 29 Dec 2012 20:56

This was from the Fourth Report of NPC

Fourth Report:
Registration of FIR:

Victims of crimes are sometimes turned away from a police station on the mere ground that the reported crime has occurred in the jurisdiction of some other police station and it is for the victim to go there and make his complaint. This works to the disadvantage of ignorant people and weaker sections in society. The NPC has recommended an important
amendment to Section 154 Cr.P.C. which would make it incumbent on a police station to register an FIR whether or not the crime has taken place in its jurisdiction and then transfer the FIR to the concerned police station, if necessary.

But in the instant case this aspect did not come into picture at all.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 29 Dec 2012 20:56

Statistics from delhi on harassment of women.

http://jagori.org/wp-content/uploads/20 ... 3_2011.pdf

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 29 Dec 2012 20:58

SriKumar wrote:

One caveat: opposing eve-teasing can end up getting one killed, like it happened in Punjab 2 weeks ago where a policeman (SI?) got shot and killed for opposing persistent harassment of his sister (?). So, there are limits in what the average abdul can do. But this man from Jayanagar is a karamyogi.

Same thing happened in Mumbai.

However one remembers DeathWish series of Movie with main protagonist played by Charles Bronson. Vigilante Justice, is it the solution.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 29 Dec 2012 21:13

Fifth Report of NPC says

Victims of Crime:
The criminal justice system shows no concern for the victim of crime at any stage. The legislation of a Criminal Injuries Compensation Act is recommended.

And that is so true. Please remember this includes judiciary and Police and NHRC etc. All cater to criminals not to the Victims.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 29 Dec 2012 21:15

Eighth Report of NPC says

Withdrawal of Protection:
Sections 132 and 197 of the Cr. P.C. 1973 provide protection to various categories of public servants against any prosecution brought against them relating to performance of official duties. The protection available to the police officers under these sections should be withdrawn so that the private complainant is free to press his complaint against police official for a judicial pronouncement without there being a provision to obtain prior permission of the competent authority for such prosecution.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 29 Dec 2012 21:19

SriKumar wrote:One caveat: opposing eve-teasing can end up getting one killed, like it happened in Punjab 2 weeks ago where a policeman (SI?) got shot and killed for opposing persistent harassment of his sister (?). So, there are limits in what the average abdul can do. But this man from Jayanagar is a karamyogi.

Little correction the girl was his daughter and the shooter was a local Akali leader.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 29 Dec 2012 21:28

KJoishy wrote:
ManjaM wrote:There is a person by name Prakruthi Banvasi who lives around the Jayanagar area in Bangalore. Over the last decade he has become someone of a small legend by chasing and nabbing eve teasers around the Jayanagar area and handing them over to the police. He has even published a small ebook with his experiences in dealing with the issue. He was somewhat of an idol for me during my college days and remains to this day.
http://www.banwasi.com/html/ete1.html

I can only hope that among the thousands of protestors and candlelighters, there will be atleast 10 who take up direct action like Banwasi and clean up their respective localities.
Saar, I am interested in knowing what happens to these goons after they are arrested. How long are they locked up? I don't really trust the cops, they might just be letting them go after a "warning" and some hafta.

Joishy saar,
From my limited experience, rarely do the bad guys get locked up. The response of the police vary ranging from a verbal lashing to roughing up the perps. Unfortunately (from my limited experience) i can say that every time the victim herself has disappeared or the family members have driven her away leaving good samaritans and the bad guys to slug it out. There is unfortunately also a caste and a local/non local angle to it. I have seen one incident on Wadia road, near KrishnaRao park where public forcibly released a guy who was caught by the victims brother because the victim and her family were brahmins and looked like rural people.
You are correct though, that the guilty were seldom punished, though the fault is not entirely with the police.
Please take an hour and go through Banwasi's booklet, its very informative.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 29 Dec 2012 21:32

All these solutions are fine but how can a women be saved if the attacker is known to her which seems to be in most of the cases.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 29 Dec 2012 21:43

The Law Commission in its report on Review of Rape Laws had suggested , in the year 2000, many changes. Some of those implemented. But they have failed to get the desired response.

I am posting the link to that report. Please review and see what changes could be made in IPC and CrPC.

http://www.lawcommissionofindia.nic.in/rapelaws.htm

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 29 Dec 2012 21:52

Sagar G wrote:All these solutions are fine but how can a women be saved if the attacker is known to her which seems to be in most of the cases.

That is what we all want to know.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 29 Dec 2012 22:11

Theo_Fidel wrote: The bald statistics say that women are raped in much higher numbers in the West than in India. All of us know this is not true.

Who is this "All of us"?

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 29 Dec 2012 22:13

chaanakya wrote:
Sagar G wrote:All these solutions are fine but how can a women be saved if the attacker is known to her which seems to be in most of the cases.
That is what we all want to know.

I think instilling strong moral values in children's since school can help, our moral compass has gone southwards. Making them know about the importance of the other gender, how we should engage with them, do's and don'ts, what to do in a crisis situation, how to avoid a crisis situation, self defence. In addition to this girls should specifically be taught to look at themselves as capable individuals and that they are equal to men. I don't know why women's tend to blame themselves even if it is not there fault. Like in this very case where a woman agricultural scientist blamed the victim for resisting and said she should have given in. If women start to talk like this then ghanta any change can be expected in mens.

Advait · Post by **Advait** » 29 Dec 2012 22:15

Practical solutions:

1) All, esp. women, should learn self-defense. Krav Maga,Karate, kung-fu, tae kwon do etc. Whichever of these is available and most convenient, learn that. Don't have time. Then make time. Cut down other activities. Reduce or stop singing/dancing class/tennis class and do this. Those activities can be started later on.

2) Purchase at least nonlethal self defense weapons such as pepper spray, bear spray, taser. Have multiple options if possible.

3) Look into purchasing a gun. In this climate if enough women get together and demand guns, maybe government will reduce the tax on it to make it a little cheaper, provide it under "some "Indira Gandhi Mahila Suraksha Scheme". As long as women can afford it, let Cong/gov take credit. Either way, seriously consider this option. Better and more useful than buying jewellery.

4) Buy a car, especially if your studies/job involve traveling at night and/or going through deserted areas. Again, a big expense, but makes it easier to run away/mow down attackers.

5) Realize life is not fair. Not blaming the victim. Just asking all to be "preppers". It is what it is, it ain't what it ain't.

Plan for the worst and hope for the best.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 29 Dec 2012 22:16

Theo_Fidel wrote:The bald statistics say that women are raped in much higher numbers in the West than in India. All of us know this is not true.

We don't know jacksh*t about anything until we have the data. First priority is to mount a campaign to get rape victims to register cases...Then we can make sense of where regions stand on a comparative basis.

What we do know is that what is happening is NOT good enough per our own standards - and that is more than enough to take action on.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 29 Dec 2012 22:30

mount a campaign to get rape victims to register cases

This is a good start but IMO very little will change without stringent application of existing laws. It is a sad fact but "society" is an aimless entity by itself and needs judicious application of "danda" to show the way. But first, we need to make the danda itself clean and healthy so not only is the justice delivered swift, fair and painful but is also respected. This is absolutely not the case now. In order to fix judiciary and enforcement:

1. Make it possible to record and enter a case of rape into the justice system bypassing the police if the police have not taken reasonable action within a stipulated time (ie. no FIR lodged, lackadaisical investigation etc).

2. Publish record of rape instances along with police and legal action taken and outcome on a local level. This will show who is doing the right things and who is lagging.

3. Tie improvement or deterioration over time directly to police and judiciary actions. IOW, make both clearly accountable and tie promotions, demotions, disciplinary action to progress or lack thereof.

A society's attitude towards women is an indicator of the mental health of that society and it is quite obvious that things need to change. To point to other countries and say "they also are like that onlee" is excusing away the excreta on our kitchen floors just because others have it.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 29 Dec 2012 22:45

On Thursday I was at a client site and they had two desi ladies in their staff, one of whom has been here recently (6 months)

Predictably the talk turned at some point to women in India and the Project manager (a lady ) asked what they though of it. Both said they felt much safer here in khanland (this was in MSP).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Dec 2012 22:54

Surya, Is that an apt example to throw some mud at members? No need for that. Make your point without slinging some at forum members.
--------------

Folks get into a paroxysm when I bring in "moral compass" and leave in a huff.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 Dec 2012 22:54

SriKumar wrote:
KJoishy wrote:
Saar, I am interested in knowing what happens to these goons after they are arrested. How long are they locked up? I don't really trust the cops, they might just be letting them go after a "warning" and some hafta.
ManjaM:
Did this person's activity have any positive effect on the incidence of eve-teasing in Jayanager area?

I feel this man is a man of action (and not words). More people like him would make this world a better place. Note that he acted irrespective of what the police finally did with the eve-teasers. If we see eve-teasing in our vicinity, as a group right-thinking people have to feel some responsibility to oppose it, like this man did. It cannot just be someone else's law-and-order problem.

One caveat: opposing eve-teasing can end up getting one killed, like it happened in Punjab 2 weeks ago where a policeman (SI?) got shot and killed for opposing persistent harassment of his sister (?). So, there are limits in what the average abdul can do. But this man from Jayanagar is a karamyogi.

He made the mistake of doing it all alone and without proper planning. This can only be pulled off if you take the cold decision to eliminate the source of the problem forever. Plan for it with a closely knit band of friends, and take steps by which the guys eliminate themselves as much as possible. Lead them into situations where they will auto-destruct. Accidents always happen. All the time.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 Dec 2012 23:01

ramana ji,
its about "perceptions onlee". Those who are talking of feeling safe as women in khanland are also doing so base don their "perceptions", and I can understand why they feel so - because in most common situations there would be less of the overt ogling/touching stuff. They have to face the attacks at home, returning at odd hours, in different pasrt of the same city, and in different cities of khanland over a decade to change their "perceptions".

I similarly asked my female students whom I had sent off to somewhere near the capital in desh, how unsafe they are feeling, and both replied that they saw not great difference. They found men to be generally less come-on-ish. They have been advised not to visit certain parts at odd hours of the night or to take certain precautions while movinga round. According to both, I had over-cautioned them - as they face much more in their European homeland.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 29 Dec 2012 23:03

ramana wrote:Surya, Is that an apt example to throw some mud at members? No need for that. Make your point without slinging some at forum members.
--------------

Folks get into a paroxysm when I bring in "moral compass" and leave in a huff.

That is the bloody is-style on this forum with a wah-wah crowd around it.

saip · Post by **saip** » 29 Dec 2012 23:04

Sagar G wrote:Also stop blaming others for your shitty thinking and Rape is already a non bailable offence.

Just because it is non bailable, it does not mean you cannot get bail. If you have money or influence you will out in a few days if not the next day. Can you make totally non bailable no matter what -- I doubt.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 29 Dec 2012 23:08

saip wrote:
Sagar G wrote:Also stop blaming others for your shitty thinking and Rape is already a non bailable offence.
Just because it is non bailable, it does not mean you cannot get bail. If you have money or influence you will out in a few days if not the next day. Can you make totally non bailable no matter what -- I doubt.

Posted about the bail thing in the first page itself do read it.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 29 Dec 2012 23:09

ramana edited as requested

the example direct with no reference to the others here.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 29 Dec 2012 23:15

brihaspati wrote:ramana ji,
its about "perceptions onlee". Those who are talking of feeling safe as women in khanland are also doing so base don their "perceptions", and I can understand why they feel so - because in most common situations there would be less of the overt ogling/touching stuff. They have to face the attacks at home, returning at odd hours, in different pasrt of the same city, and in different cities of khanland over a decade to change their "perceptions".

I similarly asked my female students whom I had sent off to somewhere near the capital in desh, how unsafe they are feeling, and both replied that they saw not great difference. They found men to be generally less come-on-ish. They have been advised not to visit certain parts at odd hours of the night or to take certain precautions while movinga round. According to both, I had over-cautioned them - as they face much more in their European homeland.

Oh no brihaspati ji. You are just another MITI type. You just do not know anything. To know about India, just coming for a vacation will not tell you anything. you have to stand in the queue for ration card and try getting it without paying bribe to know the plight of safety in India. This could be just a coincidence. The morality and all is bullshit. There are lot more morals and decency in other parts of the world but India is classic case of overflowing shit. Just try to learn about India before getting to conclusions. In fact I have started doing that.

saip · Post by **saip** » 29 Dec 2012 23:18

Harbansji,

You gave 10 cases of rape but you omitted an important category -- rape of a wife. To me a rape is a rape no matter that woman is married to that person. When she married she never gave her consent for sexual violence. This is where reformation should start -- at home. When kids watch routine violence against women at home, they seem to think it is OK and when they grow up they accept it as common practice -- in the case of boys to be violent and in the case of girls acceptance of that violence without protest.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 29 Dec 2012 23:28

Arjun wrote: First priority is to mount a campaign to get rape victims to register cases..

I am betting you have never been inside a police station.

We have problems with people approaching police stations and how things proceed once you enter a station. And then we have problems with how society looks upon raped women (social interactions, marriage etc). We have this fetish with 'virginity' that puts a taboo on marrying such women. So, why would a raped women come fwd and make it public, to seek help that is not forthcoming in police station and court.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 29 Dec 2012 23:33

Expand on the ban type solution - extend that to the nonsense of harrasing couples on valentines day - and by definition to stop poking your nose into other peoples personal consensual affairs. Its just an extension to indulge in other lewd behaviour

also remove primitive practices of temples, functions banning women for certain reasons. all these contribute to the second class position of women. Else stop going to these temples.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 29 Dec 2012 23:38

Muppalla wrote:To know about India, just coming for a vacation will not tell you anything.

Actually Yes.

You don't live in India as its common people do, then you don't know their India. At least not as much as those people living their lives as such.

If you haven't made three trips to a goddamn milk card distributing office, because you won't pay money and you are told excuses like come before 1 PM, come by 10th of the month etc..then you don't know how much corruption at lower level can affect a person's life.

You come in and you have money and bribe your way (or your people bribe for you) and you imagine an India that is shining.

You drive around in cars to malls where you see short skirts and you imagine moral degradation and go on a 'blame the victim' trip. I don't know what your problem is. You have been on and on about this, posting about how Swaziland has banned short skirts as a reaction to rape. Swaziland..yeah that's our aspiration and moral beacon.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 29 Dec 2012 23:41

Advait wrote:Practical solutions:

1) All, esp. women, should learn self-defense. Krav Maga,Karate, kung-fu, tae kwon do etc. Whichever of these is available and most convenient, learn that. Don't have time. Then make time. Cut down other activities. Reduce or stop singing/dancing class/tennis class and do this. Those activities can be started later on.

2) Purchase at least nonlethal self defense weapons such as pepper spray, bear spray, taser. Have multiple options if possible.

3) Look into purchasing a gun. In this climate if enough women get together and demand guns, maybe government will reduce the tax on it to make it a little cheaper, provide it under "some "Indira Gandhi Mahila Suraksha Scheme". As long as women can afford it, let Cong/gov take credit. Either way, seriously consider this option. Better and more useful than buying jewellery.

4) Buy a car, especially if your studies/job involve traveling at night and/or going through deserted areas. Again, a big expense, but makes it easier to run away/mow down attackers.

5) Realize life is not fair. Not blaming the victim. Just asking all to be "preppers". It is what it is, it ain't what it ain't.

Plan for the worst and hope for the best.

You realize that none of these are practical for vast majority of our women - considering money, time, facilities etc.

Buy a car..now why don't everybody think of that

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 29 Dec 2012 23:45

good point gus

here is what I mean - even in the midst of this horror this is how the two brothers of the victim responded

“Didi has always made us proud. Aisa kabhi nahin hua ki hamein unki wajah se kuchh sunna pada. Woh hamare parivar ka garv hai (We never had to hear anything on account of her. She is our family’s pride),” say the two brothers (18 and 20 years old respectively) of the girl

The fundamental problem of a intrusive society which makes people think like this.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 29 Dec 2012 23:46

Theo_Fidel wrote:Let me note a small item here. The bald statistics say that women are raped in much higher numbers in the West than in India. All of us know this is not true. As a society we can't even be bothered to record the instances of rape that occur. If we are not outraged by that how can anyone expect us to deal with things like the status of women. We havn't even taken the first simple steps.

The other Elephant in the room is domestic rapes, violence against women begins at home. This culture of disrespect then spreads high and low, till the Police officer can laugh at a woman and tell her she needs to move on after a rape.

BS. who is this "all of us"? don't include me in that list. the "feeling" of security in the West is primarily b/c the overt 'secretive' groping is less of a problem. but the instances of rape and the pressure on women to "go along with it" is as high in the West as in India. whatever differences there are will be confined to some geographic locations. but for most part, the pressure to not speak up is still very high in the West. in the cities, if you go anywhere outside of the "business districts", the environment is very different. the "feeling of security" is primarily a feature in the suburbs, which, as you know, is a very distinctly small portion of America, both geographically and demographically. once you leave the suburbs, the pressure on women to go along is as high as in India. this is fact, not fiction.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 29 Dec 2012 23:49

Gus wrote:
Muppalla wrote:To know about India, just coming for a vacation will not tell you anything.
Actually Yes.

You don't live in India as its common people do, then you don't know their India. At least not as much as those people living their lives as such.

If you haven't made three trips to a goddamn milk card distributing office, because you won't pay money and you are told excuses like come before 1 PM, come by 10th of the month etc..then you don't know how much corruption at lower level can affect a person's life.

You come in and you have money and bribe your way (or your people bribe for you) and you imagine an India that is shining.

You drive around in cars to malls where you see short skirts and you imagine moral degradation and go on a 'blame the victim' trip. I don't know what your problem is. You have been on and on about this, posting about how Swaziland has banned short skirts as a reaction to rape. Swaziland..yeah that's our aspiration and moral beacon.

You know very well about me that I did the above things? Why because you are my in-law or what? Just stop trying to paint people as some aliens. You have zero idea of what I am.

You have the problem in reading. Go back all those posts and I did not even talk about morality. Some one else did. I did not even complain about anything. Swaiziland is a news report that is in the context of rape. I posted it and did I prescribe that for India? In fact the arguments started even before rape sensation. Mere mention of moral-compass or dress codes and other social perceptions (not solutions but just mention) is bringing a Newton's third law type reaction on this forum. All I said was in context with school shooting that a lot of life in western society is plastic with no emotion. You jumped on to me telling about how bad India is. I am learning becuase appanrently I have no better connectivity to so-called-crap-on-earth called as India.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 Dec 2012 23:52

Devesh ji,
No, I am still searching for the optimal path to the future. I have long been convinced of the need to leave the current system behind, because it carries over entrenched power networks that developed with the worst surviving collaborator mentalities combined with genocidic, primitive and sadomasochistic imperialist ideologies from to the west of our nation.

We never had a cleansing. We never dropped the system that was basically an Anglo-Mughal imperialist-syndicalist rashtryia exploitative system designed to perpetuate pseudo-mafia lineages at the top of the pyramid. We should have built the whole system up from scratch with fresh people.

I therefore see that intense ideological work needs to be done among the upcoming generations. We have to wait until another 20-25 years as the current youth combined with those to come up in that time window in the future - become roughly 50-60% of the population. That is the point when tipping happens.

Meanwhile, the youth must organize - outside of normal or traditional political organizational models. Social networking is a way to bypass regular political party systems. The danger of party systems is because they are themselves perpetuating mechanisms, wheras we need changes and overthrow of these party systems as they exist and build up new movements and organizations.

As afirst step : at least boys and girls can get together to form watch-groups, where they confront and take out bands/groups/ in overwhelming numbers. The first signs of aggression/sneaking/teasing should be crushed then and there.

As for bribes - again, thats a direct legacy of the Sultanate and Mughal setup - which legetimized the nazrana culture. We did not change the state apparatus and were keen to maintain the British repressive system. So we preserved the police as a special, detached from people, lords of batons and sticks and insertion of rods into human crevices enthusiasts - force, who knew that as long as they took care of the enemies of the ruler, they could indulge in their own hot fantasies and fill their pockets too.

I have travelled widely in desh, by train, by horse, by bullock cart, on foot. I have seen far less incidence of bribe asking by train ticket checkers in the southern section of the country than in the north. Why? I have had to threaten to terminate/hold hostage one from a gang of would be teasers/rapists while accompanying a mixed mountaineering team - and I have had several incidents specifically in western Bihar to UP to Chandigarh sector of journeys. I have faced such incidents much less in the east and almost none in the south.

If we shut our eyes to the systemic components that have perpetuated the Mughal/Sultanate societal atrocities - we will never be able to correct them.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 29 Dec 2012 23:56

brihaspati

As afirst step : at least boys and girls can get together to form watch-groups, where they confront and take out bands/groups/ in overwhelming numbers. The first signs of aggression/sneaking/teasing should be crushed then and there.

thats an excellent point. I had previously asked if we had the Guardian angels type group in India - does not look so but maybe a good way to start

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 Dec 2012 23:57

I have quoted reports about UK rape-response from legal, media, police in the other thread. All that we are lambasting Indian system for, are there too. It is perhaps a shared legacy. Safety will not be ensured by depending on the police alone, although the pressure should be maintained. Some concrete demands that should be taken care of is actually - bringing in a significant amount of women police officers and patrols to man the streets and camps/stations at night. Arm them and empower them lethally - to shoot to kill if necessary. Women officers are a must for night duties at police station.

Of course they will then still be used by the longest entrenched political grouping in rashtryia power to eliminate enemies - but still there is a greater chance of deterrence for the vanilla rapist or teaser.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 30 Dec 2012 00:04

surya ji,
one system that worked I know, is such a setup. But with targeted elimination. The tactic was to lure, push the culprit into situations where he would finish himself. Most people could be taken care of by laying down evidence and case staright before the parents - if theyw ere around/available.

Getting a large group together as a network and backup for the public ocnforntation is crucial. Also threats cannot be seen to be empty. If they fail to stay within limits or correct, they have to be given what they had been promised if they deviate. I know many boys were packed off and sent out of the country by their families because of what was done.

But intervention will come from the local, entrenched party apparatuses. Not only because the boys say were cadre, or potential cadres, but also because parties think of such initiatives as a threat to their own absolute control over the populations. Police are especially angry over such initiatives. Good to involve the womenfolk of police households, especially younger women.

Warning the parents, forcing the family to confront their son's deeds - as early as possible - is a good social intervention measure.

I am not so sure about your stance on "no intrusion" line. I have faced this most frequently to defend what goes on between couples. Intrusion has to be judged based on values and legitimacy of what is being intervened into. Personal, consensual stuff should not be intervened into - and I do not support the intervention into "Valentine day" stuff. The underlying cultural jihad has to be waged in a different and much more effective way. However, when a woman or girl is being teased or abused, beat the crap out of the guy or guys.

Both my parents had inspired me by their examples. Mom was famous in her own hometown for leading a group that systematically laid low aspiring teasers using hockey sticks [she used to play the game]. Her families hsitory made her untouchable for the police. So in that sense not everywoman will have similar advantages. but we need to see how we can emulate this. Dad's stories outlined how to arrange for elimination. His was a shrewder and ruthless one. Both used social shaming, direct shaming of families as a tool. Youngistanis can think of their own way based on the hints.