Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

[chaanakya]

Just make the accountable by setting stiff targets.

How can a magistrate he held accountable? Is there any procedure for this in the normal course of their work (not talking about the new reality with the outrage). For example, does the current procedure have a reprimand, or for more serious things, a transfer.

Also, is there any provision in Indian legal procedure where, a law passed by Lok Sabha is re-assessed for its goals and the actual consequences that come about, say 1 or 2 years from the time of passing? Can one build in an automatic provision that brings it up for discussion and public comment, and alteration, if necessary? The 498a case is an example. I hear that judges themselves are calling for changes due to misuse of the law, but no one seems to be able to do anything to modify it, even in a minor way. Fast-tracking, putting time limits, with limited resources is a guarantee that some innocent people will be found guilty. This issue must be addressed or written into the current system, but I am not for waiting till there is perfection; simply because we've waited for long enough (MHO). Some of this has to be handled after establishing the new courts and fast-track procedures and people have a chance to see how the system actually worked (cruel as this will be to the innocent people who get snared in the interim). This is one reason why it makes eminent sense to have an automatic assessment of a new law, some time after its passing.

About 498A , that discussion is a separate issue.

Regarding making Judiciary accountable, I had two things in mind. Changes in CPC and CrPC. to streamline the whole investigation and proceedings/trial of civil and cirminal cases respectively.

The causes of delays have been identified. The required amendments are being carried out in piecemeal manner since any speeding up the process is met with stiff resistance from Advocates lobby. unfortunately bar councils and associations have failed to perform their role as regulatory and ethical body of professionals. There are recommendations which are fairly critical of them.Lawyers as a community failed to live up to the aspirations of Independent India though pre independent India they played a seminal role. It calls for self introspection.

The second point about accountability in other ways. How magistrates are accountable? True that in proceedings and trials they have their full independence within the ambit of the code. But they are subject to administrative control of High Courts. Registrar of High Court functions as administrative authority with Chief Judge and a collegium of senior judges overseeing their performance. They are also subject to vigilance. HC has dismissed many a corrupt magistrates.Constitutional protection is offered only to HC and Sc justices. The Lower Judiciary gets rapped if they transgress. but one can understand the limits as well. Ordinary citizens dont get a voice or have very limited interface with judiciary if they face a wayward judge, whose number, unfortunately, is increasing. The High courts can and have issued instructions for speedy disposal of cases. The need is to set administrative norms and fix responsibility. Several magistrates face disciplinary actions and even termination is ordered by the Collegium. but by and large they tend to protect their own brethren.

HC can set up monitoring cells to assess the rate of disposals. One Vijayawada example is quoted in my earlier post. Monitoring of cases must be computerised and Govt has already initiated E-Courts programme and like everything else it is taking its own sweet time. SO far judgements and cause lists have come online. Need is to bring the whole system on Comouterised filing and disposal system.

The public should get a structured gateway to complain against the judges if they delay frivously and grant adjournments. Right now litigants have to approach higher courts for a direction. This could be handled administratively and also when procedures are simplified and vagueness is removed they would have less freedom to delay the proceedings.

The conduct rules and Subordinate Judicial Services Rules need to be changed to reflect some of the ideas which may be brought up in the discussion.

[Sanjay]

Chaanakya, that incredibly helpful list at http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... e#p1387518 - I am sure you had a major role in its drafting (or sole role) - is it complete or is there more to it found elsewhere ?

[Theo_Fidel]

This is the reason I have always said this is Indias #1 problem. The women get their revenge on us by social and economic damage their relative weakness inflicts on our nation. There will always be a limit how far we can get as long as our women are second class.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wor ... omic-toll/

India’s rape problem is already taking an economic toll

[svinayak]

Rape in US
Leads to slower economic growth and depression in US
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/vide ... OeHQ-TAfD8

Disturbing Video Leaked in Steubenville, Ohio Rape Case
(Image source: YouTube/Mark Bacchus)

BY LOGAN TITTLE

A cell phone video leaked last week by hacktivist group Anonymous has added fuel to the fire surrounding an alleged rape in an Ohio town.

A group of high school football players is accused of raping and kidnapping a 16-year-old girl, who was allegedly drugged, taken to numerous parties, assaulted and urinated on last August.

Now a new piece of evidence in the case shows the teens laughing and joking about the alleged events—and we must warn you, it might make you uncomfortable.

“You don’t have foreplay with a dead girl...She’s deader than a doorknob...He raped her harder than that cop raped Marcellus Wallace in Pulp Fiction...”

The video was allegedly posted on YouTube the night of the incident, along with Twitter posts and pictures taken by those who were at the parties where the girl was being dragged.

The Daily Mail explains the Ohio town is torn by the case, with some supporting the girl in her accusations and others taking the sides of the players, claiming she made up the horrific events to hurt the football program.

So far, two football players, Trent Mays and Ma’lik Richmond, have been charged with rape and kidnapping.

http://www.newsy.com/videos/disturbing- ... deos+Feed)

[devesh]

This is the reason I have always said this is Indias #1 problem. The women get their revenge on us by social and economic damage their relative weakness inflicts on our nation. There will always be a limit how far we can get as long as our women are second class.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wor ... omic-toll/

India’s rape problem is already taking an economic toll

sounds like a shit argument. no need to put an economic price.
we need better circumstances for women as an end, in and of itself. not as a means to some other end.
we should be appalled and disgusted regardless of economic consequences.
we've gotten so used to commoditizing that we now have to put a price on sexual abuse of women to understand the horror.

[prahaar]

The concept of making cost (both profit and loss) as the prime mover for prioritizing issues/problems is a typical mercantile mentality. Even in Sweden/Norway/Finland, they talk about health care for elderly in the context of cost to government, not in terms of maintaining emotional and physical health of the elderly. I am not saying cost should not be a concern, but certain things like woman's dignity should never be accounted in terms of cost.

[ramana]

This is the reason I have always said this is Indias #1 problem. The women get their revenge on us by social and economic damage their relative weakness inflicts on our nation. There will always be a limit how far we can get as long as our women are second class.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wor ... omic-toll/

India’s rape problem is already taking an economic toll

Theo, The UPA gov failure to govern has led to free fall in the rupee value and the economic growth is back to Nehruvian highs. And you want to blame the rape problem for this?

Please do think before posting.

[Theo_Fidel]

Ramana, I know what you are trying to do and I will not play this game.
Don't politic with this issue or you will find it going the AH way.... ..same applies to LILO... ..wise to keep all of India on your side.

[RamaY]

A simple law and order issue is analyzed from every angle but law and order.

A rapist will always look for conditions and weak for rape. It is the role of law and order machinism to prevent such events if possible and catch & punish the perpetrator ASAP if the event happens.

The law and order is the responsibility and authority of the government. The society is paying taxes to finance all the necessary infrastructure. The successive C-System governments failed in this basic responsibility miserably while diverting thos tax revenues to buy votes from poor thru welfare schemes.

Individuals can self-provide or purchase civic infra like education, health care and even retirement schemes. But they cannot and are not authorized to take law in to their hands.

Theoji's root cause analysis and solutions reflect the foolish and anti-national line of thought propagated by the c-system for more than half-a-century after taking control from their British masters.

There is no need for Bharatiyas to be inclusive of such fools and anti-nationals.

[Sanjay]

Look can we keep partisan politics out of this ? Not a single political party has had the courage to deny tickets to those with criminal charges pending against them - including rape.

UPA/NDA - have failed Indian women and children (let us not forget them) thus far and so have failed India. Time for them to redeem themselves and neither group is beyond redemption.

[disha]

UPA/NDA - have failed Indian women and children (let us not forget them) thus far and so have failed India. Time for them to redeem themselves and neither group is beyond redemption.

I would not dispute the above, but what was Shiela Dikshit government doing since last 12 years in Delhi? They could have fixed the transportation mafia? What was Sonia Gandi's government doing since last 8 years in Center? Fiddling while Delhi burns?

C'mon, the current government is responsible for the law and order issue and if they should not be hauled over coals and made example of - how will you initiate change? And what is with this posters who get their posteriors in twist and never raise a finger against sonia mao? Not even a word of outrage and out come their explanations of how Hindus are bad, how the bharatiya culture is bad, how the NDA did not take care of law-and-order (heck they have been booted out since last 8 years from center and 12 years from state)!!

Added later: It is stupid to just say politicians are all bad. Why are they protecting sonia mao's backside? Should not she be asked questions since it is her (and her party's) government running at the center and the state. Further, delhi gets far more pampering since it is India's capital than the rest of the nation - and it is the rape capital of India! What gives?

[Theo_Fidel]

Meanwhile a fair commentary....

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/magazine/a ... 269070.ece

A letter to young men who protested against rape

It is good that you protested against a homicidal rape. I will not call it a “brutal rape”, because that would imply some rapes are not brutal. All rapes are equally brutal. It is not often that you have stopped to think of so many other rapes that take place in India (and in other countries too), but it is good you stopped to think this time. And you protested with real conviction. Let me reiterate it once more: It is good you protested for a change.

But protesting against this homicidal rape was easy. Now, before you, lie a number of acts which will prove far more difficult. For instance, you will have to learn to decline when your mother serves you food before she serves your sisters. Actually, to be honest, you will have to anticipate your mother and serve food yourself. You will need to help, equally, with the cooking, cleaning, washing up. What about the laundry? You probably have an ayah or a part-time servant, but still, you might have noticed that your mother and sisters do a lot of the domestic chores too. I won’t be so radical as to ask you to help the over-worked ayah — though that is something to consider too — but surely you need not watch TV or go off to the cricket club when your mother is putting away the dishes or stacking the clothing.

You will need to work very hard on it — not as a favour but as a habit. And believe me, such habits are not easy to cultivate when you have been brought up with decent Indian middle-class values.

But why should I target Indian values in particular? I have seen young men in places like England, Italy, France and even Denmark expecting their mothers — though less often their sisters — to take care of domestic chores. Do not, because you have grown up reading most books in English, assume that patriarchy is a problem only for India.

I recall seeing on Facebook, in the days when you were out on the streets protesting against the homicidal rape in Delhi, that you disliked the suggestion by a famous Indian writer that your passionate protests were motivated by class bias. I will not enter this complex matter here. It is sad that you have been deaf to so many rapes in remote, overlooked corners of our country, but that does not mean you do not deserve full credit for protesting this time. It is good you protested this time, at least.

But let not your protest be confined to middle class affinities. It is not true, as some of you wrote on Facebook, that the famous writer was wrong because it is middle-class women who smoke, drink and are accused of wearing sexy clothes anyway. No, middle-class women are strongly controlled by the forces of propriety in India. Some might react to this and smoke or drink, but this is very rare even in the big cities of India outside cosmopolitan circles.

Actually, it is working-class women in India who have traditionally smoked — and openly imbibed fermented drinks. You do not see them. They usually belong to the aboriginal tribes and the “scheduled castes”, and many of them have been “cured” out of such habits by missionary as well as middle-class propriety in the last few decades. But if you really look, you will still find some of them smoking bidis on your streets.

You see you have fallen into the same trap as your opponents. There are frightened men (and women) who want to control women and inhibit their spaces in the name of protecting them. They say that Indian women do not smoke or drink. They are wrong: millions of Indian women have been smoking and drinking for centuries, and lakhs still do. As for “sexy clothes”, well, “sexy” is a strange word in a country where millions of women do not have enough clothes to wear. The fact is that Indian women, like Indian men, have traditionally worn a more varied assortment of clothes than the men and women of any other country!

You see, for centuries these “working” women have also been raped — by people like you, by people like me — for partly that reason. They were raped because their different lifestyles were considered a moral and social defect, which somehow “called for” such a brutal form of exploitation. They were raped because they were not given the right to say “no”.

So, yes, stand up for equal space for all women; their right to say no or yes; their right to wear saris or shorts. Do not stop your sister from going out in the evenings, if you yourself would go out in the evenings. Do not use fear as a weapon to control her. This takes effort too. Because finally, “rape” is a weapon that is brandished over the heads of all women who simply wish to have the space to live as fully as men do. Do not use it as an argument to curtail the lives of the women around you.

It was good to see you protest for women, and not just for yourself. But let it not end here. Look around you. Look into your families and do what you can there. Look into your neighbourhoods, and do what you can there. And forgive me if this sounds preachy, but I am talking from experience. It took me time to learn to iron my own clothes, wash my own dishes, and to cook for my family. It takes effort even today. I was not born with such habits. But I make an effort because I know that it is an example I can hand on to my son and, indirectly, my daughters.

Rape is the monstrous face of ordinary domestic injustices. Do not fall into the easy trap of blaming politicians for a flaw that exists in almost every home.

[disha]

^^^ Pathetic farticle. The issue has been outsourced to every Indian home now., heck they have to be blamed and hang their heads in shame. Expected that. Ask the writer to go to a "minority" community and campaign for human rights for women first before lecturing others on what to do or not and where to hang their heads.

But where is the author's exhortion to demand better governance and responsive law and order? Nah that does not come out - interesting.

[disha]

There is no need for Bharatiyas to be inclusive of such fools and anti-nationals.

+1

[RamaY]

Look can we keep partisan politics out of this ? Not a single political party has had the courage to deny tickets to those with criminal charges pending against them - including rape.

UPA/NDA - have failed Indian women and children (let us not forget them) thus far and so have failed India. Time for them to redeem themselves and neither group is beyond redemption.

Read again what I said. Read it till you understand it.

[ramana]

Ramana, I know what you are trying to do and I will not play this game.
Don't politic with this issue or you will find it going the AH way.... ..same applies to LILO... ..wise to keep all of India on your side.

So tell me what I am trying to do? So for I have been seeing it as a law and order situation made worse by an absentee/checked out govt.

[svinayak]

We have seen culture, religion, politics, India, being Indian , foriegn countries, modernism, shame, being posted as analysis for this law and order issue. It is as if India never existed before and has to be taught how to live in this world.

[Manny]

Anyone here read that article written by that JNU ahole in The Hindu..with a photo of Vivekananda saying

Vivekananda is the problem.. It didn’t take long for the rascals to come out of the wood work. What next? Gandhi’s shirtless Masculine body that is the impetus for the India’s rape cultre?

CELEBRATING MANHOOD: Swami Vivekananda’s masculine photographic-pose is revealing of how Indian nationalism encouraged a deeply masculine notion of modernity. Photo: R. Shivaji Rao

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/t ... 266007.ece

Man..I am seething with utter hatred for the desi lefties and JNU university buggers. I hate these JNU lefties a 1000 times worse than any Islamists from Pakistan.

[RamaY]

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/magazine/a ... 269070.ece

A letter to young men who protested against rape

idiotic farticle of Paki verity.

This moron tells us preparing and serving food is somehow inferior. s/He doesn't understand that we are what we eat (if not sure, try consuming poisonous food, alcohol, drugs etc., and see the effects or try eating healthy food and see the positive effects).

And try help the Ayah? Then what about HER job security? Now if we all do what women does, then what jobs women will do? Isn't having women as receptionists, air-hostesses, marketing/sales executives, models, movie actresses, ambassadors, spies etc sexist, presuming it gives them some advantage or disadvantage being women?

Only fools follow such stupid intellectuals. What next? Ask men to bear children?

[Prem]

Ramana, I know what you are trying to do and I will not play this game.
Don't politic with this issue or you will find it going the AH way.... ..same applies to LILO... ..wise to keep all of India on your side.

India or Indians ? Many Non Indians reside and are in ruling elite circle.

[Arjun]

Look can we keep partisan politics out of this ?

Delhi has always had a bad reputation as regard rape, Mister....More than enough time for a Chief Minister who's been around a decade to do something about it.

[archan]

Theo ji & rahulm ji why dont you guys get the rapes in your own adopted countries sorted out before you tell us Indians to do what we need to do?

Do not use other users' geographical location as a point to support your argument. There may be a situation where it might be unavoidable but this is not one of those. An NRI if expressing concern about the security situation in India and discussing ways to improve it does not imply that their adopted country is perfect.

open fly torn shirt: so what if my shirt is torn, but you look at your open fly first.

That his fly might be open does not make your torn shirt OK. The shirt is still torn!

Who stops you from commenting on the shooting of little children in USA?

I hope I don't see any more of your comments reported.

[Yudhajit]

We have seen culture, religion, politics, India, being Indian , foriegn countries, modernism, shame, being posted as analysis for this law and order issue. It is as if India never existed before and has to be taught how to live in this world.

All these are mere distractions, if I may submit most humbly.

The real and only issue is that we have failed to implement the concept of Praja Aadheen Raja in our country. And probably we will not be able to anytime in the near future.

[Prasad]

I know we're trying to provide solutions. But this article shows a few things that are wrong. Any measure in correcting something starts with identifying what is the current state and what is wrong with it.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 906753.cms

An auto driver threatens a reporter. She tries to file a complaint but is given the run-around by all concerned. For a simple complaint. Procedural changes will have to be made to avoid making people approach law enforcement this difficult.

[Prasad]

Arguments that mock religious belief systems and people for holding such beliefs that are in direct contradiction to bad day-to-day happenings will always be there. Targetting of "culture" as promoting rape will be done in all societies.

To cite the example of the US, birth control pills are a major point of contention among the religious right, since according to them this leads to promiscuity, while totally ignoring the genuine need many people have for these pills for other purposes. Similarly, there will always be people who will take potshots at temples like that idiot butt but that shouldn't detract us from realising that a lot of this "oh they have strayed from our culture by going out at night with other men, living with men when unmarried, wearing clothes that reveal what shouldn't be revealed, becoming westernised, drinking, smoking blah blah blah are the reasons why women are being raped. If only they were all wearing pavadai thavani and sticking to making delicious food for their husbands, they wouldn't get raped since they would be equated to devi mata" sort of victim blaming and justifications are still being given, even today.

Take that dolt who said women should behave, if not well even Sita was punished. I could cry at the lack of brains in that dolt. I hope we all do see the sordid side too. (Yes, I know most here do. I'm talking about society at large, not just brf junta). We need better education and not just in terms of degrees but better understanding of issues that relate to people, women, and our own culture as it actually means and not idiotic interpretations by people with their own agenda or worse, none at all!

[ramana]

I know we're trying to provide solutions. But this article shows a few things that are wrong. Any measure in correcting something starts with identifying what is the current state and what is wrong with it.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 906753.cms

An auto driver threatens a reporter. She tries to file a complaint but is given the run-around by all concerned. For a simple complaint. Procedural changes will have to be made to avoid making people approach law enforcement this difficult.

DELHI: I might have passed this over as a routine risk that women in Delhi live with. But now I think the story should be told, especially after Nirbhaya's friend has revealed that none of the 50-odd auto-rickshaws at the Saket malls agreed to take Nirbhaya and him to their destination. If one of them had, they wouldn't have taken that deadly bus and Nirbhaya might have been alive.

My story is just two days old. On Thursday at around 6 pm, I was waiting for an auto-rickshaw at Badli Mor near Rohini with my sisters. After about ten minutes, one auto-rickshaw stopped. We wanted to go to Model Town. But the driver didn't want to go there. But as it was getting dark and we were anxious to reach home, we told him, "You can't say 'no'. We can file a complaint against you."

The driver changed tack. He demanded a large amount for the trip. We told him to go by the meter and charge 50% more. He simply refused. Once again we warned him - that we would complain to the police about his behaviour and his arbitrary demands.

Suddenly the driver whipped out his cellphone, turned around, and clicked our picture. His gruff voice turned menacing: "Tu complaint to kar, mai batata hun (You just try filing a complaint, I'll show you what I can do.)" An argument followed and I called the police control room at 100.

I informed 100 that the driver of the auto-rickshaw with the registration number 'DL 1RM 9979' had abused us, and on protesting, had taken our pictures and threatened us with dire consequences. The voice at the other end gave me another number - 27854799 - and said that the area I was in came under the jurisdiction of the police who would attend to my call.

I tried calling up this number several times but the line kept on beeping. I tried the women's helpline, 181, but it went on ringing. We had, in the meantime, flagged down another auto-rickshaw. He agreed to take us to Model Town. The earlier driver, now visibly angry, rushed towards us. His threat was chilling: "Agar meri complain kari to main tere ko kahin ka nahin chhodunga (If you complain against me, you won't be in a position to face anyone after that.)"

I stay with my sisters away from my family. And the threat really shook me to the core. We were going home, but decided to head towards a friend's place in Kamla Nagar, scared that the threatening driver might follow us home.

When I called 100 once again, a lady told me that the police coming under the Badli Mor jurisdiction could take any action in this case. I waited and some time called again to verify the auto-rickshaw's registration number to the control room.

After 30 minutes, I got a call from a PCR van. The policeman asked me, "Madamji, could you please tell me in which direction the auto-wallah went?" "How will I know," I said. "We left Badli Mor 30 minutes ago." I told him that my complaint should be registered, but the policeman said only after the driver is challaned, would I be able file an FIR against him.

Finally at 8.30 pm I got a call from a traffic police officer in Rohini. He told me: "The number I have complained against is not registered. But we still will try to trace him."

Great! The driver of a public transport vehicle threatening me with the worst kind of violence, was traceless. This was the last call I received from the police. When I tried calling the traffic officer back on the number I had received the previous call from, it went on ringing.

I made another call to 181. This is the response I got: "Go to the Delhi Police website, to the transport section, and first file a complaint there." The person who answered the call didn't bother to ask me any further details, let alone ask for the registration number of the auto-rickshaw.

I know I live in a very unsafe city.

Didnt the Home Secretary RK Singh, make pious requests to all the Inspector Generals and Chief Secys of India that not registering a police complaint is a violation of law?
Or is Delhi Bullice exempt from their own boss's request?

i still think Delhi Police has to be demobilised and rebuilt from gground up.

Transfer all the officers and dismiss the beat cops who are most likely on the take.

Bring in police from TN and Kerala till the a new force is raised.


I am not saying Andhra as folks might think I am biased.

[Yudhajit]

Procedural changes will have to be made to avoid making people approach law enforcement this difficult.

No amount of procedural changes will ever work unless the police chief knows he can be kicked (and most peacefully) out of his job directly by the public the day a significant portion of them decide this fellow has had enough time to come up with whetever solutions.

Expect only latth until then.

[ramana]

The Indian police service is an government civil service and not a law enforcement agency.

They keep in service at the pleasure of the President whose son claimed the victim was "painted and dented"

[Arjun]

Arguments that mock religious belief systems and people for holding such beliefs that are in direct contradiction to bad day-to-day happenings will always be there. Targetting of "culture" as promoting rape will be done in all societies.

Maybe you are seeing something I am not, Prasad.

I would be really interested in any data you might have to back up these statements of yours.

Can you provide examples of media articles in the US that have talked about American or Christian culture as being responsible for the high level of rapes out there? Or Christian culture being responsible for the disgraceful yearly school shootings ? How much of such talk is there in mainstream media or forums in the US, or even in non-mainstream media for that matter?

[Bade]

Arjun, this is not the right thread for this, but as you would very well know that American culture in popular thoughts is basically Christian values and this is understood implicitly by all Americans. Non-christian "values" are something new and too small in numbers to worry about at this point in the US. So in the media when they talk about American values it is interchangeable in everyone's mind. Now gun culture is not central to the majority religious view, but there has been enough debate on that central American value/right after each shooting incident.

Yet nothing gets done about it either, even after the football gets passed every 4 or 8 years between just two parties.

[Prasad]

Arguments that mock religious belief systems and people for holding such beliefs that are in direct contradiction to bad day-to-day happenings will always be there. Targetting of "culture" as promoting rape will be done in all societies.

Maybe you are seeing something I am not, Prasad.

I would be really curious to get into some real data to back up these statements of yours.

Can you provide examples of media articles in the US that have talked about American or Christian culture as being responsible for the high level of rapes out there? Or Christian culture being responsible for the disgraceful yearly school shootings ? How much of such talk is there in mainstream media or forums in the US, or even in non-mainstream media for that matter?

Let me make myself clearer. Tons of people get off by targetting what is essentially the biggest target in the room. In India, there isn't any one single dominant elephant-in-the-room entity other than our culture. You could call it hinduism, but I think its far more than just 1 of our great religions. By trying to discredit it, they try to eat it away from inside. Case in point - our mainstream media by itself and its pandering to greats such as dotty roy and her ilk. There will be genuine problems in some of our cultural traits. There will always be because nobody is perfect and ours is as syncretic and evolving any or better than any such belief system in the world. It has after all survived and flourished for millenia.

In the US, the targetting of the christian faith and the christian right is pretty open. By many in the pro-womens movement and anti-racist sections, the white christian male specifically is targetted for having caused most of the evils in the country. I am too lazy I admit, to dig up articles to back it up. Trawling through gawker media for one, should be enough for that though.

What, in my opinion is different though, is that the people who see through a destructive agenda in our country and speak for it vociferously without getting sidelined in the mainstream are very few since the whole setup is engineered to lean the other way. Once the majority of our young folk awaken to that, we will see these lackeys running for cover. Prime example? - Twitter. Check out the number of take-downs every single tweet the mutt and the ghost receive. Heck somebody brought up a 2 yr old tweet of the ghost and a 15 year old article by her husband claiming that dawood was a patriot and she cowered and claimed that she can't believe people are jobless enough to bring up such old items. She doesn't get that its just a simple search away. That is the power we have.

Heck, that became a rant and got sidetracked like hell. Apologies.

[Arjun]

Arjun, this is not the right thread for this, but as you would very well know that American culture in popular thoughts is basically Christian values and this is understood implicitly by all Americans. Non-christian "values" are something new and too small in numbers to worry about at this point in the US. So in the media when they talk about American values it is interchangeable in everyone's mind. Now gun culture is not central to the majority religious view, but there has been enough debate on that central American value/right after each shooting incident.

Bade, I have some comments on the relationship between 'American values' and 'Christian values' - but before that, can you provide links to any articles that provide the link between 'American values' or 'Christian values' and rape incidents over there ? Also with regard to the gun culture.

Frankly, I just don't think there is similar level of mainstream debate out there...but then I am willing to be proved wrong.

[Arjun]

In the US, the targetting of the christian faith and the christian right is pretty open. By many in the pro-womens movement and anti-racist sections, the white christian male specifically is targetted for having caused most of the evils in the country. I am too lazy I admit, to dig up articles to back it up. Trawling through gawker media for one, should be enough for that though.

I definitely don't see it in mainstream media...so I would have to disagree until I see more evidence.

If there is an alternate thread where we can get into inter-cultural comparisons, we can continue there.

[Prasad]

A quick word on another aspect in this sad affair. The fact that the friend of Jyoti said that nobody came forward to help her, isn't really restricted to the problem in india of nobody coming forward to help someone who is obviously in need of help. Named the bystander effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_ ... e_examples) the wiki article also shows examples of it occurring in the supposedly better west too.

[Bade]

Arjun, Regarding rape in the US, the perception is different than in perhaps India or for that matter other Asian countries as well. With women's liberation, free sex, dating, pre-marital sex etc. this aspect has been decoupled already from the mainstream religious values of abstinence till marriage, no? So what is the point of such debates in the media here, as such values as the source for rape incidents. It has been always been treated as a legal issue (forced non-consensual sex) at least for the last few decades.

Now, you could debate the rapes as arising out of liberal values itself, as many outside of the US have pointed fingers at. Some immigrants too hold this view and say so openly in their own circles.

Rapes get the attention in India, but the lesser crime of molestation is prevalent everywhere. Addressing that socially with also help from the law will help in reducing the rapes too. They are all related in that as the sample size of molestation cases increases, it has a direct bearing on the number of rapes itself, and the rarest or rare ones with brutality like the one in Delhi pops its head more frequently than one would like to hear about.

[Bade]

Wanted to make a quick point on the relative incidents in urban vs rural from the stats posted. I was looking at Kerala stats in the link posted earlier, and find the normalized numbers (or ranks) for each of the cities were much lower than for the entire state. The odd ball was only Kollam, and it is the smaller of all cities in the state. So most the crimes are happening in rural settings at least in Kerala, and even getting reported.

[Arjun]

Arjun, Regarding rape in the US, the perception is different than in perhaps India or for that matter other Asian countries as well. With women's liberation, free sex, dating, pre-marital sex etc. this aspect has been decoupled already from the mainstream religious values of abstinence till marriage, no? So what is the point of such debates in the media here, as such values as the source for rape incidents. It has been always been treated as a legal issue (forced non-consensual sex) at least for the last few decades.

Bade, I am surprised that an IIT MTech like yourself actually buys into such obvious snake-oil !!

Estimates of Evangelical population in the US is anywhere between 35 - 50%, and this does not even account for those that are religious but not evangelical....obviously there is a huge section of the population that is deeply influenced by religion and more specifically by dogma.

India has a majority religion that is non -dogmatic and does not even have a concept of 'congregation' where values or dogmas are enforced. And you have bought into the snake-oil that US rapes need only be linked to either liberalism or legal / enforcement issues - while for India it is very much a 'cultural' issue ?? Seems to me to be the absolute heights of nonsense.

[Bade]

Arjun, you are having serious trouble understanding simple statements made as I perceive the American population views itself.

I am even more surprised you have bought in IIT and other non-relevant matters into it. So much for your objectivity and statistics quest. Sorry sir, you got to do better than this.

All I have said is the sense of shame attached to rape in the west is much lower than say in India or other Asian countries. This is related to liberal values as perceived by Americans themselves. What I believe or not is not the issue. I hope someone who holds himself to such high scholarship as yourself would be able to decipher that much.

Please wrap your head around the statistics already posted in this thread and present your analysis before you go witch-hunting messengers, even though the numbers are not enough as there are no clear efficiency numbers for reporting biases and differences across different regions or of a diverse culture that India is, as in lower reporting of crimes related to women do not necessarily mean lower crimes are actually being committed. But this cannot be resolved anyways.

[Arjun]

Arjun, you are having serious trouble understanding simple statements made as I perceive the American population views itself.

I am even more surprised you have bought in IIT and other non-relevant matters into it. So much for your objectivity and statistics quest. Sorry sir, you got to do better than this.

All I have said is the sense of shame attached to rape in the west is much lower than say in India or other Asian countries. This is related to liberal values as perceived by Americans themselves. What I believe or not is not the issue. I hope someone who holds himself to such high scholarship as yourself would be able to decipher that much.

Bade ji, I understand what you are saying.

You are saying (a) that there is a difference in how the US media connects rapes to certain causal factors and the Indian media connects rapes to certain other causal factors and (b) that there is a justification from the US POV as to why this differentiation exists.

I am saying that while I understand your logic, the fact that you don't take a moral stance on this very explicit inconsistency between US and Indian media would seem to indicate that you agree with the US justification, in some sense. If you don't agree with this inconsistency - well then, please do make it clear and say that you don't like it.

[Bade]

Saar, I think I made it very clear and my opinion on what US does has no relevance.

If you think the US has an issue with rape (maybe it does not, as I see no mass protests here regarding it even though clearly it is happening regularly and getting reported as well) then please do suggest what they should do to improve the situation.

If I understood you, your peeve is that it is recommending something to Indians, that is not acceptable to you. Please elaborate what is it that you find objectionable in what is being suggested that is a cultural affront to India ? Some of it by Indians themselves in the media.