Solutions to Making India a Safer Place

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 31 Dec 2012 16:18

The top states / UTs on the basis of per capita rapes, as per 2011 statistics: Arunachal Pradesh, Assam, Chattisgarh, Kerala, Madhya Pradesh, Meghalaya, Mizoram, Tripura, Delhi.

Cities (out of the 35 largest urban centers) that Top in per capita rapes: Agra, Bhopal, Delhi, Durg, Faridabad, Gwalior, Indore, Jabalpur, Jodhpur, Jaipur, Kollam, Vishakapatnam

The primary problem seems to be with North-Central India and North-East regions...though Kerala & Vizag are the odd ones outside of these regions that also figure.

yogendra · Post by **yogendra** » 31 Dec 2012 16:33

Looking at the data from the National crime bureau, some points that jump out to me are that
a) In most states(barring a handful) the no of complaints received to cases registered is 100%
b) Delhi has 80% of it complaints received over Distress call to 100 (numbering 14lakh complaints). It also has the worst ratio for complaints/cases registered after Chandigarh.
c) Mumbai/Chandigarh also have the same anomaly.

Is this data trustable enough to judge the ground realities even empirically? I think not.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 31 Dec 2012 16:42

yogendra wrote:Looking at the data from the National crime bureau, some points that jump out to me are that
a) In most states(barring a handful) the no of complaints received to cases registered is 100%
b) Delhi has 80% of it complaints received over Distress call to 100 (numbering 14lakh complaints). It also has the worst ratio for complaints/cases registered after Chandigarh.
c) Mumbai/Chandigarh also have the same anomaly.

Is this data trustable enough to judge the ground realities even empirically? I think not.

Yogendra, In which page are these statistics of complaints / case registered you refer to ?

yogendra · Post by **yogendra** » 31 Dec 2012 16:49

It is the first table on page 21 from your linked report.

Look at the column names. Col 7 is total complaints received and Col 9 is total cases registered under IPC+SLL.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 31 Dec 2012 17:29

Theo_Fidel wrote: The police are reluctant to file FIR's because so much junk cases are filed by people. My cousin who is DCP says that 80%-90% of FIR's are false. About half have to do with vendetta's over property disputes. Police have a hard time sorting out the genuine from the fake.

The point is valid but should we make it difficult to file an FIR because of the above reason? In any case, a follow-up investigation (if done properly) will clear it up. (I grant that a proper follow-up can be done only if police is properly staffed, and this is a huge hurdle). My point is that we should not hold ourselves hostage to brilliant analysis that shows problems at step 2 when step 1 has not even been taken. Also, filing false cases is more do-able only in some situations, e.g. where physical evidence is low; but with rape, it is a different story. Doctors will get involved, and in most cases, there will be physical evidence.

If we want to change the cultural mind-set, what steps should be taken for it? Let's stop the Theorizing and put some thought into execution. What do you propose? Cultural senstization for kids from 14 through 17; or upto 22 years of age? How will this be achieved? Put a moral science-type class in the curriculum with one class a week? (Am not being sarcastic- just looking into the mechanics of execution here). So what will this entail: adding a class to CBSE and state syllabus but with no impact on the Board exam results? What about B.Sc/B.E/B.A. level courses? As I see it, cultural sensitization will mean some form of instruction to a group of youths, formally or informally. If you can, please provide an execution path and specifics for 'mind-set and cultural change'. (Note that I am not against this idea, I think is a fundamental approach, but we are seeing this as an either-or situation, and, we have to understand the timeframe of any proposed solution.).

An analogy: when a patient is suffering from a heat-attack, the need of the hour is some short-term relief, as in going to an emergency room, taking nitroglycerine pills etc. to save the patient's life (applies to rape+murder cases literally). A prescription on changing dietary practices to reduce cholesterol, while a good fundamental solution, is not going to help. We need both, but the short-term has to be addressed first (IMHO). If one says that both can be done in parallel, I am fully supportive. Please provide some specifics on the execution of your favorite plan-whatever it is

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 Dec 2012 17:41

OK. Since you asked for it.

End arranged marriage. We will be 50% of the way there. All else is piff paff...

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 31 Dec 2012 17:42

Theo_Fidel wrote:OK. Since you asked for it.

End arranged marriage. We will be 50% of the way there.

And how long will this take to achieve in the Indian society? And what are the steps to take to get there?
Specifics.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 Dec 2012 17:44

It can happen remarkably quick. So. Ko. went from arranged marriage to personal responsibility from 1940's to 1970's. One generation.

yogendra · Post by **yogendra** » 31 Dec 2012 17:49

Theo_Fidel wrote:OK. Since you asked for it.

End arranged marriage. We will be 50% of the way there. All else is piff paff...

Can you explain how it would get us 50% of the way there?

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 31 Dec 2012 17:51

Theo_Fidel wrote:It can happen remarkably quick. So. Ko. went from arranged marriage to personal responsibility from 1940's to 1970's. One generation.

Is happening and will happen here too. Arranged-love marriages are not uncommon anymore in the SEC A1 urban classes. Nor are love marriages themselves per se.

This change will happen in its own time - i.e. two generations maximum. Govt can only do so much about it. Can't force it at gun-point.

Still, there will be holdouts - the muslim community for instance, who will resist this fiercely. Reactionary instinct will push them further into a closetted ghetto with greater segregation and veils. Only.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 31 Dec 2012 17:52

Theo_Fidel wrote:OK. Since you asked for it.

End arranged marriage. We will be 50% of the way there. All else is piff paff...

Indeed you asked for it was absolutely the right description for this "advice"

Theo-ji; why do you put forth your pet peeves as one liners? These are serious topics, no need to take a opinionated approach on these things.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 31 Dec 2012 17:53

yogendra wrote:Is this data trustable enough to judge the ground realities even empirically? I think not.

We probably need to go by the (not very unreasonable) assumption that cases registered / actual number of incidences is more or less the same across India. I wouldn't rely so much on the numbers per se, but only use it to draw conclusions of the type 'Region X has a higher per capita rate for crimes against women than Region Y', which in turn could lead to valid speculation on underlying factors that drive this regional variation.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 31 Dec 2012 17:54

ramana, our firang product loving crowd will need many jolts - I am sure many industrialists and marketers would be ever listening to these for indeginzation.. perhaps these gizmos are already available or can be imported. Now, first all NRI should buy a few of them and spread such usage in desh at every opportunity given. Once, people see value in such devices and its use, it becomes ubiquitous.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 31 Dec 2012 17:55

Theo_Fidel wrote:It can happen remarkably quick. So. Ko. went from arranged marriage to personal responsibility from 1940's to 1970's. One generation.

Thanks for the specific. I will not ask you for details of why this is a good idea, it will derail the thread for sure (the idea
was discussed quite a bit, about a 1-2 months ago).

My objection to this, Theo, is that the timeframe for this is not right.
30 years is too long for women to wait to get relief. Even 10 years is too long.

How many rapes will happen while we wait half or one full generation? (for a 50% solution)?

We are looking for a solution that provides atleast *some* relief immediately. Say, 1, 3, 6 and 9 months from now, if not 1 week from now. Any solutions in this timeframe? (anyone?).

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 Dec 2012 17:58

Sanku saan,

Why do you refuse to face the facts.

Take a look at communities. Check out the difference between communities who bring up their children to exercise personal choices and responsibility and those who don't. Night and day.
--------------------------------------------------

It took women in USA 60 years to get the vote.
Communities in India that have something approaching gender equality have taken centuries to get there. We will be lucky with 30 years.
Still need to focus and make it a priority right now.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 31 Dec 2012 18:02

One needs to see the situation of women in so-called uber-equal Scandinavia. Although they have 55% women cabinet ministers, 50% women MPs, 40% top women managers, etc etc, when you talk about the large portion of women, they have a horrible situation. A single mother carrying around 3 kids from different "fathers", with one brother despising the other one because his father caused his mother to leave his father, etc, etc.

I am not exaggerating this, the situation is so painful to women (physically due to violence and mentally due to fragmented households). I know personally one such family and the child asks his mother, why the other sibling's father takes her for father's day but his does not.

We need to be sure that while breaking old/current shackles, the replacement should be available without causing huge harm to common masses who are just pawns in the social experimentation.

Comparing N.Europe versus India I see the following different issues:
-In India the social network comprising of family/extended-family exerts maximum pressure on individuals whereas in N.Europe, it is peers, who in turn are indoctrinated by the state propaganda.

I see many Indian middle class families have come to a more agreeable (since I do not know what is ideal) balance between individual freedom versus family expectations. For the purists it might be BAD (from either end of the spectrum), but I certainly do not subscribe to going with the western model as seen by me in N.Europe.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 31 Dec 2012 18:04

Theo_Fidel wrote:Sanku saan,

Why do you refuse to face the facts.

Take a look at communities. Check out the difference between communities who bring up their children to exercise personal choices and responsibility and those who don't. Night and day.

Are you talking of love marriages reducing rape, Theo ? Can you back it up with any data whatsoever ?

Let me share one datapoint with you...Mizoram, which is predominantly Christian and where almost all marriages are love marriages, has the highest rape statistics per capita in the country (much higher than Delhi or North Central India).

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 31 Dec 2012 18:13

Theo's suggestion boils really down to reducing segregation. Consider the fact that a person who has hardly said a Hi to a girl, 23 years of his life, how difficult it is for him to find a mate. Not that it does not happen, but society found a way through this by arranging marriages. Arranged marriage structures by themselves are not causes for rape. it is enforced segregation at early stages, gender groupism, adda/ herding mentality, lack of outlets whereby respectful interactions can take place. Lets take Indians in the US. 2 million or so Indians who went there, i think most have had arranged marriages. Yet they and their children have the lowest convicted sexual assault rates in the US.

Looking at it another way: If we reduce segregation, increase avenues of respectful and safe interaction between opposite genders, increase such outlets where people can have fun and interact then automatically lots of people will not be going for arranged marriages. And the segregation would be reducing regression and frustration in society. So speaking yes, rape rates should come down under such circumstances.

Increasing avenues of interaction can start in weeks. One can see the effects in months. These avenues should be in school, college. They should be monitored to some extent for guidance. Then comes for the young working folks who would like after work some fun time. This should not be restricted to elites in 5 star hotels. Every town and city can have streets where good internal and police monitoring of recreational interaction for middle to lower incomes can be monitored and people feel safe. This is not too difficult to achieve.

SOKO went from arranged to modern systems in less than a generation because of the creation of environments, clubs, areas and avenues of interaction between genders. Reduction of the arranged marriage percent was a result of reduced segregation. Not the prime driver.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 Dec 2012 18:18

harbans wrote:Theo's suggestion boils really down to reducing segregation. Consider the fact that a person who has hardly said a Hi to a girl, 23 years of his life, how difficult it is for him to find a mate. Not that it does not happen, but society found a way through this by arranging marriages. Arranged marriage structures by themselves are not causes for rape. it is enforced segregation at early stages, gender groupism, adda/ herding mentality, lack of outlets whereby respectful interactions can take place. Lets take Indians in the US. 2 million or so Indians who went there, i think most have had arranged marriages. Yet they and their children have the lowest convicted sexual assault rates in the US.

Yes, I can go for that.

I would not go with the NRI arranged marriage dhandha how ever. One of the continuing sources of shame and crass disastrous marriages in USA for Indians.

Not giving folks an out with arranged marriages. Force the genders to have to deal with each other early and often.

You can see the difference between the victim and the criminals in this case. Girl, having selected someone was out on a movie night with boyfriend. Louts in bus waiting for arranged marriage with some helpless girl in village. I realize this is over simplistic but we should recognize these patterns.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 31 Dec 2012 18:22

My first post on this thread:

I have always believed that girls from very small age need to be trained in the martial arts, irrespective of religion. When they are 15, 16 they would be in a position to give a good beating of any male, who still has not got the message.

Males will never again make transgressions, and if they do, they can be sure that they will have to pay dearly for a nose operation.

Also Indian men would have to follow suit if they wish to retain some modicum of self-respect for their manhood. Only bullies and ubermachos will have no place to go!

As a father, this is what I would wish for my daughter!

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 31 Dec 2012 18:25

post deleted to reduce confusion from Theo's post below. Reposted below Sanku's post.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 Dec 2012 18:26

What nonsense. I hear this all the time in India however.

As a father I would never advocate violence from children. What kind of society is that. I can guarantee that for every criminal you accost there will be an innocent there as well. I know I have been at receiving end of such false accusations.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 31 Dec 2012 18:31

Theo_Fidel wrote:Sanku saan,

Why do you refuse to face the facts.

Take a look at communities. Check out the difference between communities who bring up their children to exercise personal choices and responsibility and those who don't. Night and day.

I see all facts Theo-ji, I have absolutely no clue as to what you are saying here. First you make a huge leap from arranged marriage == children not being responsible to ==> safety for Indians.

I see no relation what so ever, in fact, (not that I think is the reason) -- if you see the poor safety standards in US despite everything (yeah I know that statistics can not be trusted and the "I think this is the case" is a more valid indicator etc etc, but I am slightly stupid, I look at facts as captured on the ground) --> we should say that we should be more like Saudi Arabia, because as far as crime is concerned the Barbaria is better off.

We have to get rooted, lurching after every mirage that pops up is hardly a solution.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 31 Dec 2012 18:31

harbans wrote: Increasing avenues of interaction can start in weeks. One can see the effects in months. These avenues should be in school, college. They should be monitored to some extent for guidance. Then comes for the young working folks who would like after work some fun time. This should not be restricted to elites in 5 star hotels. Every town and city can have streets where good internal and police monitoring of recreational interaction for middle to lower incomes can be monitored and people feel safe. This is not too difficult to achieve.

harbans, I am a bit sceptical that your above proposal will show any immediate results (as in weeks, months). One could argue that this is most open that the Indian society has ever been and yet the crimes are getting worse and more heinous. More interation is needed? (I not saying less interaction is better, what I mean is that other things have to done first).

On a related note, I would be curious if women agree with your above prescription that more interaction with the opposite sex will reduce eve-teasing, groping and rape. (genuinely curious).

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 31 Dec 2012 18:33

Theo_Fidel wrote: You can see the difference between the victim and the criminals in this case. Girl, having selected someone was out on a movie night with boyfriend. Louts in bus waiting for arranged marriage with some helpless girl in village. I realize this is over simplistic but we should recognize these patterns.

Actually the prime rapist had lost his wife 2 years back and since then become violent. Also the boy was girls fiancee, most prob arranged marriage given the background.

What is your "take a random incident and make it theory" now since the facts are slightly better now?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 31 Dec 2012 18:35

SriKumar wrote: On a related note, I would be curious if women agree with your above prescription that more interaction with the opposite sex will reduce eve-teasing, groping and rape. (genuinely curious).

Well given that US has high volume of rape, and they are mostly by people which interact and know the victim well (in fact 80-90% of rapes fit that case worldwide too) -- I am of the opinion that all the "cultural" theories floating around, are in fact either just have no correlation with reality, or actually are contra-indicative.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 31 Dec 2012 18:39

^^^I agree. Not hard to notice the strain of thinking that automatically conflates moderization with westernization of culture, practice, religion and then makes a leap to hence its == better for Indians.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 Dec 2012 18:48

Well we are still discussing how to make India safer for women, arn't we...

Every woman I know tells me she feels infinitely safer in the west. So now what.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 31 Dec 2012 18:50

Sanku wrote:
Well given that US has high volume of rape, and they are mostly by people which interact and know the victim well (in fact 80-90% of rapes fit that case worldwide too) -- I am of the opinion that all the "cultural" theories floating around, are in fact either just have no correlation with reality, or actually are contra-indicative.

Also, it is estimated that about 54% of rape crimes do not get reported the US. http://www.rainn.org/get-information/st ... ting-rates. In a lot of cases, the victim knows the perpetrator. There's even a classification of rape called 'date-rape', as in, your date did it. Google it. The under-reporting rate for UK is 75% and 95% per a 2007 study (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_stati ... _reporting).

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 31 Dec 2012 18:56

Theo_Fidel wrote:Well we are still discussing how to make India safer for women, arn't we...

Every woman I know tells me she feels infinitely safer in the west. So now what.

Could it have something to do with police presence and the fact that there is actual enforcement of law? And how long do rape cases take to get tried? Years or decades? It takes weeks or months at the most, generally speaking. And this is for all cases- civil or criminal, not just rape. Comlicated, high-profile cases like Madoff, or a Mafia ring prosecution etc. take a year to two. There's good police procedure, in the form of investigations (this was my pet peeve with the Aarushi murder case: the first investigation from the police read like a story from Bollywood script) and things get taken to completion. There's a serious emphasis on implementation of law in the US, and we need something along those lines here. If cases take years or decades to settle, it quite literally lets the perpetrator go scott-free. (I dont know how eye-witnesses in India provide testimony after 5 and 10 years. I forget even important details of events in a year or 2. I have to believe that eye-witness testimony after 5 years has part fantasy in it. Cases just cannot go on for that long just to 'ensure that procedure is followed).

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 31 Dec 2012 19:00

Theo_Fidel wrote:Every woman I know tells me she feels infinitely safer in the west. So now what.

Most rapes are by acquaintances even in the West....the 'safety' factor you refer to relates to how women feel about strangers on busy city roads.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 31 Dec 2012 19:05

Theo_Fidel wrote: Every woman I know tells me she feels infinitely safer in the west. So now what.

Very difficult to comment on that. Most Indians I know who go to US from India are google eyed, "wow we have made it" types who make washing their dishes a virtue and learn the value of "doing it yourself" even if the self same person goes back and need people to help him/her get a glass of water. They are all fairly clueless people who do not have the first understanding of either India or US, being neither here nor there and live in their bubbles in both US and in India.

But of course no one can challenge me on the above, since, "that is my experience"

So anecdotal evidence clearly would not mass muster, and if it did, we have all our versions.

In any case Indians in US are hardly the US society and representative of US experience, for any numbers of reasons (demographics, place of residence, cultural values, jobs etc etc...) -- even is assuming those evidence really counted for something (which they do not for above discussed reasons) -- the reasons why those experiences are not the US experience is also obvious.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 31 Dec 2012 19:06

Hari Seldon wrote:^^^I agree. Not hard to notice the strain of thinking that automatically conflates moderization with westernization of culture, practice, religion and then makes a leap to hence its == better for Indians.

This is the whole game and agenda pushing going around. Any event including pet cat's stools being hard is all because of India's culture. One has to start with dismantling the devi's inside temples, all the temple going rues have to be changed, every one should compete and become a ***** start. The society then becomes a heaven.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 31 Dec 2012 19:07

harbans, I am a bit sceptical that your above proposal will show any immediate results (as in weeks, months). One could argue that this is most open that the Indian society has ever been and yet the crimes are getting worse and more heinous. More interation is needed? (I not saying less interaction is better, what I mean is that other things have to done first).

On a related note, I would be curious if women agree with your above prescription that more interaction with the opposite sex will reduce eve-teasing, groping and rape. (genuinely curious).

In Delhi for example, there are no outlets for lower to middle class adults to interact or close to zilch. In Gurgaon there are many open till 3 am or more. Gurgaon with a population of 2 million registered some 20 odd rape cases in a year. Delhi 500 plus. And the 20 odd rape cases in Gurgaon it is unknown how many would involve those who spilled over from Delhi.

However by reducing segregation in schools, involves respectfully guided interaction between genders, possibly one class a week or something like that. Cannot just talk about the specific modalities. Let youngsters know too the opposite gender is exactly like us except in form. Cops and Politicians cannot escape the hardwork saying people should be inside homes before 9 pm. No free society can work like that. Women are to be safe in India 24 hours. For that the need of the hour is not to have frustrated gangs of young men roaming drunk our buses and streets in search of some fun. A Ram SIngh who visited such outlets would have got hammered by bouncers if he misbehaved. Next time around he'd learn that if he wants to enjoy the interaction, the best chance for that is respect.

Yet in our societies it has been ingrained that disrespect, stalking, harassing girls work. No i disagree if that is the inner psyche of men in India or elsewhere. This is induced psyche. If it was cultural, then Ram and Krishna wouldn't have fought major wars for the honor of women, we wouldn't have respected female Goddesses. Many Bollywood themes do not reflect society. But consistently they keep playing those same ones. Hardly 1 in 200 movies makes some sort of box office hit. They've just become a channel to make white a lot of black money. How do you think Dawood woos his women? Charm? Respect? No. He makes Bollywood icons reflect his way of wooing. Our society has begun to reflect some of those aspects.

To break that mould, it is of fundamental essence we allow and make easy such avenues of interaction adult and adolescent. Monitor them. Keep tabs. The positives will play up faster than one imagines.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 31 Dec 2012 19:12

Yet in our societies it has been ingrained that disrespect, stalking, harassing girls work.

I think we need to be somewhat more specific on which parts of our society this is ingrained in....It is certainly very far from being any kind of description of the family environment I grew up on - whether immediate or larger set of relatives.

So are we referring to certain regions, certain castes, urban vs rural etc are things to be looked into.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 31 Dec 2012 19:26

Arjun Ji i can't keep repeating myself. But this aspect i have been mentioning often. The Big Gorilla in the room: Bollywood. That of all major Icons in all major films spreading one way of winning girls: That through stalking, harassment, lewdness. Big B to Satyameva Aamir. If people have not been able to grasp why in our society it's natural and prevalent for a youngster to ask a girl..aaja meri pajero mein beth ja, or arrey yeh chali chamakcholo, or cannot relate the lewdness in our society so hooked to Bollywood and it's icons, then i suggest they rethink and then think again. They must learn to co relate. This one can see in daily news items, girls spurns suitor and then girl attacked with acid. Time and again women have been subject to lewd comments considered par for the course, fun yaar..mazaak kar rahe the. Who popularized that stalking and harassing women is the right way? Bollywood. I am referring to a massive section of our youth, segregated crowd, basti wala's and so on. It runs across the religious, caste or rural/ urban divide.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 31 Dec 2012 19:32

we sorely need women posters for this topic.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 31 Dec 2012 19:45

RajeshA wrote:When they are 15, 16 they would be in a position to give a good beating of any male, who still has not got the message.

Males will never again make transgressions, and if they do, they can be sure that they will have to pay dearly for a nose operation.

Other than practical problems of time, money, availability - there's also the general weakness of a female body compared to male and also the problem of male gangs as well.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 31 Dec 2012 19:47

Theo_Fidel wrote:Well we are still discussing how to make India safer for women, arn't we...

Every woman I know tells me she feels infinitely safer in the west. So now what.

TF - the Indian experience in US is non-typical of native borns in the US and cannot be compared beyond a level, with experience in India.

Even here, the upper middle who is insulated from environs and travel in cars to rich areas - do feel safer.

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 31 Dec 2012 19:48

Surya wrote:we sorely need women posters for this topic.

Agreed wholeheartedly. Does anyone know any young ladies (students, perhaps) who are willing to share their perspectives (if not experiences)? Any demographic is fine, but young ladies are more likely to have experienced groping/teasing etc. It should not take more than half-an hour of time per day (for a few days). If they want to post more, that's even better. Encourage them to post.