Delhi Case Follow-up thread

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby ramana » 25 Jan 2013 03:10

Didn't she come to power in the wake of her rival being accused of rape in New York hotel?

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby SriKumar » 25 Jan 2013 07:27

Here is the full text of the Verma commission report. 611 pages in all. Everything under the sun is in it, police reform, assault, abuse, honor killings, women trafficking, army action, education etc. There's a lot of 'theory' in this....e.g. 'the police ought to do this', the magistrate shall do that'. No idea how this will be implemented or enforced.

http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/arch ... 40438a.pdf

Conclusions and recommendations on page 411. Recommendations are not specific items of actions. THey are generic statements of principles. Perhaps executive steps are in the earlier chapters. Lot of data on MLAs/MPs with criminal cases. The report is unambiguous about the problems with this....no 'innocent until proven guilty and so they can continue' business. They clearly state that such legislators will try to strangle laws that might affect them. THere's a state-wise breakdown of numbers (tables on pages 370 through 380 etc.)

The text is searchable....need to search with some keywords to see what's in it.
Added later:
1. Page 426 has a list of (100) persons that the panel spoke with. Kiran Bedi is in the list, there are many names from Harvard, Oxford, Australia univ., etc.
2. The justices used the name 'Nirbhaya' in the report.
3 Lot of text has stuff like 'EVery woman has the right to equal ....[x]; x= freedom of education, right to marry anyone they want, access to public transport etc.etc. It reads like a list of fundamental rights....(all have a right to freedom of expression, right to own property, right to free education etc. We all know how that's worked out....its all on paper, reality is something different).

4. Have searched the report for one comment on delays in cases, slow judicial process etc....could not find it. ......Found something Conclusions # 2 and # 3 address the issue of slow judicial process in very general terms:
2. Speedy justice is not merely an aspect of the right to life with dignity, but is essential for efficacy of the law and its desired impact, as well as for prevention of its violation.
3. Available personnel of the judiciary and the infrastructure, with a few systemic changes can, atleast, reduce half the burden of arrears in courts contributing to delays in enforcing the law of the land. Judge strength can be increased in phases without diluting their quality. Our suggestion of eminent retired judges being appointed as ad hoc judges will solve this problem.
The above suggestion that some 'systemic' changes will halve the court backlog is interesting but very vague. Re-appointing retired judges will 'solve the problem'? If it will, then let's go for it (Now, how many retired judges are there, and how many (lakhs of ) pending cases are there).
Last edited by SriKumar on 25 Jan 2013 08:47, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby member_23629 » 25 Jan 2013 08:00

IndraD wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/juvenile-justice-act-has-failed-miserably/article4337040.ece

Juvenile age bar should not be lowered - Justice Verma

Standing firmly against lowering of the age criteria for juveniles accused of heinous crimes including rape, the Justice J.S. Verma Committee report on ‘Amendments to Criminal Law’ has noted that “the Juvenile Justice Act has failed miserably to protect the children in the country. We cannot hold the child responsible for a crime before first providing to him/her the basic rights given to him by the Indian Constitution.’’

Mango people should ensure that Juvenile Md Firoz is released soon and gets employed in the house of justice verma and daughters...


I am very disappointed with this guy's report. He is a "theory" judge -- people who write reams and reams expounding on everything under the sun in their judgements, from philosophy to history to politics to international relations. These type of judges lack common sense and are of no practical use to society. They over-intellectualize everything and don't allow strict action to be taken against criminals. These judges with heads in the clouds are a part of the problem, not the solution.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby chaanakya » 25 Jan 2013 09:32

SriKumar wrote:
4. Have searched the report for one comment on delays in cases, slow judicial process etc....could not find it. ......Found something Conclusions # 2 and # 3 address the issue of slow judicial process in very general terms:
2. Speedy justice is not merely an aspect of the right to life with dignity, but is essential for efficacy of the law and its desired impact, as well as for prevention of its violation.
3. Available personnel of the judiciary and the infrastructure, with a few systemic changes can, atleast, reduce half the burden of arrears in courts contributing to delays in enforcing the law of the land. Judge strength can be increased in phases without diluting their quality. Our suggestion of eminent retired judges being appointed as ad hoc judges will solve this problem.
The above suggestion that some 'systemic' changes will halve the court backlog is interesting but very vague. Re-appointing retired judges will 'solve the problem'? If it will, then let's go for it (Now, how many retired judges are there, and how many (lakhs of ) pending cases are there).

Juatice Verma has given a good report on ethics and Norms. He has criticised all and sundry but failed to see the reality of Criminal Justice System. Granted that there is widespread prejudice and bias in society which work not in favour of women. Has the Judiciary lifted itself above this widespread bias? Whatever case is registered by the police , the Judicial process ensure that they do not reach fruition. Criminals and their rights are more important then the Victims of Cromes. Judicial system has least regard for the victims. The victim, witnesses are made to run from pillar to post in elusive search for justice. Justice Verma failed to give any concrete solution for low conviction rates. He chose to blame other agencies but not his own brethren.

This may be due to reasons such as improper investigation, coupled with judicial delays. Some of the statistics regarding delays in disposal of cases are highly disturbing. During the year 2011, only 16 percent of the rape cases pending for trial could be completed and at the end of the year about 79,468 cases were still pending for trial at various courts. It is the same story in respect of other crimes viz. 13% disposal rate in cases of kidnapping and abduction of women and children, 16% in dowry deaths, 10% in cases relating to cruelty by husband and relatives etc. There is huge backlog of cases in various categories. For e.g., 29,669 pending cases in respect of dowry deaths; 3,39,902 cases in cases of cruelty by husband and relatives, 17,468 cases under Dowry Prohibition Act etc. there is an urgent need for a concerted effort to minimise judicial delays through special courts, fast tracking of such cases etc.

The low conviction rate may be yet another reason for the increase in crime against women. The NCRB data for the year 2011 shows a conviction rate of 26.4% for cases of rape, 27.7% for cases of molestation and 45.8% for cases of sexual harassment. Effective and timely investigation leading to conviction in a timely manner may act as a deterrent in such crimes.


The criminal enterprise in India is characterised by High Reward - Low Risk model where as seeking justice is a Low Reward - High Risk model. The time has come to reverse this trend. Low investment-High Return for ciminal enterprise where as seeking justice is High Investment and Low return . Citizens are actively discouraged from seeking justice and wherever they approach court the whole system works against them in delaying justice. The criminal , meanwhile , dies of natural death enjoying his ill gotten wealth till his last breath and benefiting all others in the process who are involved in Criminal Justice System. Why CJS would ensure speedy trial when they themselves are beneficiary of delayed trial.

This report would be sent for comments and also examined by another committee perhaps of Parliamentarians and before a separate law is framed enough time would have passed to dim the memory of this incident till it is sparked by another such incident and another next Gen gets riled for the time being and gets disappointed by the system.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby IndraD » 25 Jan 2013 14:05

Amid the heightened emotions that have surrounded this case a local bar association has stopped its members from representing the men citing the heinous nature of the crime. The three grandstanding lawyers who have rushed in to represent the accused spent weeks taking potshots at each other instead of coordinating a defense. Two lawyers fought for days over which one was representing one of the defendants.

And the case is being heard by a brand new fast track court, set up in the wake of the rape to deal with sexual assaults in the capital, that is under pressure to reach a verdict within weeks. Finally, whatever is said or submitted in court has to stay in the room—a gag order by the judge prevents the media from reporting anything about the case.

‘‘However wicked and depraved society may perceive a person to be, he deserves a fair trial. He deserves a good defense,’’ said Markandey Katju, a retired judge of India’s Supreme Court.

‘‘That some of those charged are the real culprits and some are innocent ... that is a very real possibility,’’ he said, adding that in India the police ‘‘spreads its net wide
.’’

:x
Doubts raised about fairness ot trial
http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/2 ... story.html

From report injuries by two rods were so severe that intestine was free floating inside

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby ramana » 25 Jan 2013 19:44

One of the risks of appointing someone to probe themselves is they are blind to their own flaws.
The Verma commission had all three memebrrs who were in legal profession. Not one Police DIG was on it.
That is why root cause and failure analysis teams need to have a composite membership with equal voice.


Maybe now CJI Kabir can show leadership and probe the judicial system and see how it can be modernised.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby SaiK » 25 Jan 2013 19:52

NPR airs views massaged up off the verma documents. The way they present to American audience is like the end result of the report is aimed at: arranged marriage, wearing jeans and skimpy dresses, dating etc. I was shocked.

Now will the public speak up? Is that what this problem is all about?
WTF onlee.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby Prem » 25 Jan 2013 23:33

Indian Women Given Kitchen Knives, Chili to Fend Off Rapists
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2013/01/ ... .html?_r=0

The Shiv Sena party, an ally of the main opposition BJP, said it had handed out 21,000 knives with three-inch blades to women in the city and surrounding areas and plans to distribute 100,000.
Mumbai police said they were examining the knives and considering legal action. "This is a symbolic gesture," said Shiv Sena spokesman Rahul Narvekar, adding that a knife shorter than six inches in length does not fit the definition of a weapon. The party also handed out small bags of chili powder - apparently to throw into an attacker's eyes. "It's only to pass a signal to eve-teasers, anti-social elements and perpetrators of crime against women that women are empowered and they can take care of themselves," Narvekar said.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby IndraD » 25 Jan 2013 23:39

http://www.emirates247.com/news/delhi-g ... 5-1.489766
Gag order imposed on lawyers of accused :((
A judge hearing the case of five men accused of the fatal gang-rape of a student on a New Delhi bus barred lawyers from speaking to the press on Thursday on the second day of the trial.

"The court has strictly ordered us to refrain from sharing details about the case," lawyer V.K. Anand told AFP outside the Saket district court in New Delhi, where the suspects made a second appearance on Thursday.


The results of the bone ossification test of Vinay Sharma, one of the six accused, has proved that he is not a juvenile. The sixth rapist can now be tried tried under the existing laws governing rape cases in the country.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby IndraD » 25 Jan 2013 23:41

Jhujar wrote:Indian Women Given Kitchen Knives, Chili to Fend Off Rapists

Perfect example of law and order crumbling down, on the other hand if used by even one or two women on molesters it will be a deterrent, help is anyway not coming from police

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby ramana » 25 Jan 2013 23:46

IndraD, There wasn't much doubt about that fellow Vinay Sharma. True his lawyer claimed wrong birth date!
Its the Md Afroz guy who is the issue.

About the 3 inch knives, the Indian Arms Act prohibits civilians with knives greater than 6" blade unless you are a Sikh with a kripan or a former royalty with inherited swords.

Shiv Sena is being careful with the 3" knives which would be good for sabzi cutting badly. They could have gone till the legal limit.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby hnair » 26 Jan 2013 00:16

Srikumar-saar is right on the delay issue. Plus one doesn't hear about victim or witness protection suggestions. I am not saying the learned judge did that, but the report sounds like written by someone who has been having consensual sex with his own palm, while cut-pasting from some old Femina article. A poor lady got eviscerated in Delhi, her companion and family hounded.... this is not business as usual :-o

ramana wrote:Shiv Sena is being careful with the 3" knives which would be good for sabzi cutting badly. They could have gone till the legal limit.


er, ramanaji, a 3" edge or point weapon is really good for 99.99% of the molester types.

- It can result in painful bleeding, which in itself distracts the molester, who needs to be in close quarters.
- wounds wont be deep enough to inadvertently cause molester-fatalities and put the poor ladies into that CJI Katju's (Cadaver Justice of India) black books.
- concealment is easy
- because of its NFU-ish last-ditch nature, accusations of unwarranted aggression is not there.

Infact, if anyone here wants to do a little experiment, give a white-board marker to SHQ/GHQ and ask them to use it like a knife on you. Stabs or swings. Unless you are an accomplished knifer (most molesters won't be), one will be surprised at the number of marks she leaves in your body.

For a change, whomever advised The Shivvies had some sense in a tactical sense, though I dont think the political aspect is going to make sense.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby SaiK » 26 Jan 2013 00:21

perhaps aided by spring loaded release mechanism, that can get maximum out of minimum work during emergencies.

I am sure, some private co can be engaged to make india specific stun guns that is useful like a torch light too.

designs to choose from akin: http://www.stungunscheaper.com/~Stun_Gu ... PAodhBYAxw

Now, I am not sure if this is legal. I am might end up buying one or two and make the awareness of such devices in desh.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby ramana » 26 Jan 2013 00:42

SaiK, Spring loaded are specifically prohibitted. Called flick knives. Believe me I know that act very well.

hn, When confronted by a goon armed with a iron rod 6" knife is good.

Naxals in RECW use to have iron rods machined by fellow travellers in the college workshops while the indics used to have bamboo sticks masquerading as curtain rods.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby KLNMurthy » 26 Jan 2013 00:53

SaiK wrote:perhaps aided by spring loaded release mechanism, that can get maximum out of minimum work during emergencies.

I am sure, some private co can be engaged to make india specific stun guns that is useful like a torch light too.

designs to choose from akin: http://www.stungunscheaper.com/~Stun_Gu ... PAodhBYAxw

Now, I am not sure if this is legal. I am might end up buying one or two and make the awareness of such devices in desh.

So, are these things like knives, chillis or even acid not available to potential male attackers who may also be operating as gangs? And is an attacker going to keep quiet while the lady calls timeout and digs the knife out of her handbag? Is it easy for any normal person to get over the physical / mental barrier that holds one back from cutting another human being? Can an attacker who is physically stronger snatch the knife and use it on the lady?

FWIW I have 30 year old anecdotal information about many young ladies carrying small knives or razor blades stuck inside a split pencil. There is no evidence that anyone has been deterred.

Shiv sena os catering to childish urge for some drama to show there are instant magic answers.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby KLNMurthy » 26 Jan 2013 00:53

SaiK wrote:perhaps aided by spring loaded release mechanism, that can get maximum out of minimum work during emergencies.

I am sure, some private co can be engaged to make india specific stun guns that is useful like a torch light too.

designs to choose from akin: http://www.stungunscheaper.com/~Stun_Gu ... PAodhBYAxw

Now, I am not sure if this is legal. I am might end up buying one or two and make the awareness of such devices in desh.

So, are these things like knives, chillis or even acid not available to potential male attackers who may also be operating as gangs? And is an attacker going to keep quiet while the lady calls timeout and digs the knife out of her handbag? Is it easy for any normal person to get over the physical / mental barrier that holds one back from cutting another human being? Can an attacker who is physically stronger snatch the knife and use it on the lady?

The training, assuming it is somewhat beneficial, would be expensive and hard to scale up. Is anyone prepared to undetake and underwrite such an effort? It is cheaper to huy some knives from China and shout that we are doing something, then back to regular programming.

FWIW I have 30 year old anecdotal information about many young ladies carrying small knives or razor blades stuck inside a split pencil. There is no evidence that anyone has been deterred.

The training required to physically repel an attacker works by building muscle memory. It is also hard to determine whether even the training would be deterrent, beyond giving some self-confidence to the lady. And any amount of training would not have saved Jyoti and her friend against six full grown men.

Shiv sena is catering to childish urge for some drama to show there are instant magic answers. There is enough foolish talk about this in the real world from people without imagination, empathy or intellect. I hope brf will take a deeper and more mature direction.
Last edited by KLNMurthy on 26 Jan 2013 01:14, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby hnair » 26 Jan 2013 01:06

ramanaji, I had given some thought, based on my own observations.

- the tactical situation faced by a victim of molestation is different from a riot/mob participant or a mugger. The average molester, by his nature, loves to sidle up and at that point, his BENIS takes over the thinking and safe tactical distance etc goes out of his mind.

- Same for the gang rapist. The nature of the crime demands that they come in close proximity. Both wont approach a victim who turns out to be a slasher. But if still they persist, then that means they have a long history, which brings my other point below

The thing for seasoned animals (Ram Singh, I am 400% sure has got away with it before) is to take them out of the streets earlier, after their name starts popping up in databases. Now that is a huge problem in India, due to lack of a ViCAP equivalent system. The CCTN is still in its infancy and nation wide networking is still iffy, despite massive advances in networking.

Infact, with these futile sounding judicial reforms etc, I was having these thoughts:
- have an open-source data warehouse, where any one (maybe validated social network ids?) can file complaints anonymously against XYZ.
- aam-public cannot search for a perp, because that will be against privacy laws and can cause stampede effects. But cops or Private investigator licensees can
- create (confidential) specific reports for police, for trending names or locales, for further inquiries. Lot of things like physical description, hangouts, SOP, background, victim profile etc can come up. Ram Singh type would have been snared early
- create (public) generic reports for lay public (eg: like Lilo-saar's twitter-googlemap effort) to know where police are slacking off (recurring spikes)

Names of individuals/perps can be kept confidential to a great extent. There will be tons of false positives, particularly with politicians :D As also pranks and fake campaigns. But with a set of good filters, over time, serial offenders can be tagged, irrespective their status in society and the complainants get a sense of anonymity as well as some abstraction from the Katju-mamas and Dilli-bolis' more awkward actions.

(some folks I know, used to carry iron rods inside the rolled-up engineering drawing sheets. Sometimes edge weapons too :oops: )

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby KLNMurthy » 26 Jan 2013 01:29

hnair, some good constructive thinking there. On those lines, there could be trained lady officers in civvies or deputized volunteers with powers of arrest and / or summary retaliation, deployed at random in vulnerable areas. Their deployment should be hugely publicized. The sense that they could get arrested or encountered by an undercover officer would be a deterrent for a good proportion of rapist punks.

Adolescent boys need to be taught by fathers and older brothers that taking a woman without her consent or otherwise violating a woman's person makes you a worthless punk, not any kind of a man.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby IndraD » 26 Jan 2013 02:53

Urban India is seething in anger, to each news item published in toilet paper regarding justice Verma report, delhi victim, accused etc, there is still tremendous outpouring, people almost ready to avenge personally for what has been happening all these years.
There are very strong comments and opinion , strewn all over, India is changing though this is apparent at the moment in urban area mostly.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby Prem » 26 Jan 2013 03:26

330 Million Knives for Dharmics only as a symbol of 330 Millions gods . This ought to be minimum requirement for Dharma Raksha .

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby ramana » 26 Jan 2013 03:31

Rapists divided the victim's belongings

New Delhi, Jan 24: Five men on trial for the fatal gang rape of a student on a New Delhi bus warmed up by burning her clothes after they had left her for dead, a police file reveals.

The file seen by The Times claims the accused then divided up the belongings of the 23-year old and her male friend and tried to destroy evidence by cleaning the bus and hiding their own clothes

An alleged confession by bus driver Ram Singh, 33, recovered from the police's file on the case, states that his brother Mukesh Singh, 28, was given one mobile phone while gym instructor Vinay Sharma, 20, was handed another, along with the male victim's shoes.

Akshay Kumar Singh, 28, took the student's rings, 18-year-old Pawan Gupta took a watch and 1,000 rupees, and a juvenile was said to have taken a bank card and a small amount of cash.


Today's opening arguments by the prosecution lawyers took place within a courtroom closed to the public and media, in a special fast-track court set up just weeks ago to handle sexual assault cases.

Details of the day's proceedings were not available. The courtroom was closed to the public and the media even though defence lawyers had argued that since the victim is dead, the proceedings should be opened.

There was also a gag order on the lawyers to not reveal what happened inside the court.

The police's file on the attack contains details of the operation mounted by Delhi police to catch the attackers and the alleged attempts by the accused to destroy evidence.

The documents reveal how police tracked down the bus on which the attack took place after detectives spotted it on an airport hotel's CCTV, speeding away from where the victim and her male friend were dumped.

Testimonies from two rickshaw drivers allege that the attackers burned the victims' clothes in a bonfire lit close to where the bus was parked.

The police papers say that despite the attackers' efforts to clean the bus, substantial blood stains remained and further DNA evidence was obtained when detectives found bundled clothing worn by the men on the night of the attack, along with clumps of the victim's hair.

The bus driver, Ram Singh, tried fleeing his slum when detectives caught up him but later confessed and gave police five other names, including that of his younger brother, according to the police documents,

His alleged confession includes how the men split the victims' mobile phones, money, jewellery, bank card and even the male victim's Hush Puppies shoes.

Mobile phone records are said to place the attackers on the route taken by the bus during the attack.

An alleged confession by the juvenile suspect states that the men pretended to be fellow passengers to lure the couple onto the bus before the bus doors were locked and each of the men 'took it in turn to do the wrong act.'

An iron rod was used first to beat the male victim and then used on the student to inflict massive internal injures of which she died two weeks later in a Singapore hospital.

They were both then dumped naked on the side of the road.

The aspiring doctor, 23, secured a First in her fourth and final year medical exams at the Sai Institute in Dehradun shortly before she was raped and murdered, her University has revealed.

She featured in a list of high-achieving students compiled by Hemwati Nandan Bahuguna Garhwal University in Uttarakhand, after she scored 800 out of a possible 1,100 marks.

She scored: 124/200 in Physiotherapy in Orthopaedics; 147/200 in Physiotherapy in neurology; 151/200 in Physiotherapy in Cardiothoracic Conditions; 144/200 in Physiotherapy in General Gedicine; 160/200 in Physiotherapy in Clinical Dissertation; and 74/100 in Research Methodology.

The head of her former institute Harish Arora pledged to hand back the 1,80,000 rupees paid by the girl's family in fees.



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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby IndraD » 26 Jan 2013 04:03

^^ Also now it is appearing acc to news that killing was the idea of Ram Singh, juvenile followed his orders, he even said to others after victim was unconscious 'dekho ladki mar gayi'. The murder was done to prevent getting identified.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby SaiK » 26 Jan 2013 04:50

mr murthy, your anecdotal remark on safety devices will definitely countered by evil forces.. even without they will be. but it is not anecdotal, that gun countries like amrika has quite a large number (considering only normal people) of people who fear of other other person carrying guns.

the fear will definitely will raise the levels of weapons and the types. of course a gun shot is a faster kill., but from a non gun culture oriented setup, a stun gun or similar safety device is for protection by no means an indicator that evil forces are taken care off. the problem we have is these evils roam around with weapons, and intention to rape and kill which matters most.

so, devices alone does not help. better protection forces needs to be established by the setup and individuals. had it been all clean state, then none need any type of weapons., and note that we have to get trained how to use them as well.

non-lethal stun guns definitively helps, and i am sure nirbhaya instead of biting her rapist had stunned them, she would have escaped death and rape perhaps. even knives or pepper sprays would have been overcome by these men easily.. but a 2 million volt jolt should incapacitate them, for more than 30 seconds for her to escape.

i don't need to prove this.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby SriKumar » 26 Jan 2013 09:14

http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/arch ... 40438a.pdf

Went through most of the Verma commission report as best as I could. Comments below. Page numbers refer to the number at the bottom of each page on the report (and not the pdf file page number). Overall, the report is comprehensive, well-organized and very readable. However, the tone of the report is more like a neutral commentary than a call for action. (This time it is not business-as-usual anymore. People are out on the streets for a reason).

1. The report is quite comprehensive, however, it is very strange that the issue of slow the moving justice system is barely mentioned. There are chapters with a LOT of details and statistics on matters like child abuse, trafficking of women, political candidates with criminal records; but the report is almost totally silent on what happens to cases that are tried in a court. There is an entire chapter on ‘Sentencing and Punishment’ but nary a word (perhaps about 10-20 sentences in the entire report) about the geologically slow timeperiod of the judicial process. There is NO mention of a single statistic of how long it takes, on average, to bring a rape trial to conclusion. No mention of fast-track courts either.

2. No statistic presented on how many rape cases are pending in various state courts (atleast, I could not find it and I went through all but 2 chapters page by page; if I missed anything please mention it). Why this was not seen as relevant in a national exercise that seeks to reduce crimes on women is a mystery. IMHO, this would merit an entire chapter, and who better to comment on it than justices who've tried rape cases. And yet there is an entire chapter on ‘Gender Justice and India’s Obligations to International Conventions’.

2. Chapter 12 (page 312) is on Police Reforms: They propose several interesting ideas (based on a Prakash Singh Case). Directives of that case on page 315. Some reforms supported by the panel: DGP minimum tenure of 2 years, creation of Police Board (per state) that decides on transfers, postings and promotions (pg.325)

3. Overall the tone of the report is, to use a cricketing analogy, like that of an expert commentator commenting on a scene/situation in front of them, rather than that of someone who is involved and has a role to play in the process. I guess my negative tone should not take away from the fact that the justices prepared the report in 29 days when they had about 60 days to work it. And they did express shock/horror at many findings. I hope the powers that be note this.

4. The authors do note that some detailed recommendations have been made in the past were just plain ignored. (page 265):
This clearly shows that the Executive of this country is fully aware of the bare minimum steps that are required to ensure the safety of women, and has been aware of the same, as will be seen elsewhere in this Report, for several years. Yet, despite numerous recommendations, deliberations, consultations, studies, directions from the judiciary and, most importantly, the protests of civil society, the State continues to fall woefully short of ensuring the safety of women in this country.
5. The main body of the report ends with:
The recommendations made in this report, unless urgently implemented, will end the exercise conducted by this Committee in futility.
Says it all…..they’ve done their part and cannot do anything more. The rest is up to someone else (IAS babus? MPs?). Now, the question is: what happens if these recommendations suffer the same fate as previous recommendations? I would say, the practising justices have the most control over their OWN system, i.e. the judiciary. It would be the easiest for them to start fixing their own problems.
Last edited by SriKumar on 26 Jan 2013 09:56, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby SriKumar » 26 Jan 2013 09:31

Below is a list of chapters of the Verma Commission report, just in case anyone is interested in a specific section:

1. Preface
2. Acknowledgments
3. Glossary
4. Introduction
5. Methodology
6. Chapter One: Constitutionalism, Republicanism, and Gender Equality pg. 24
7. Chapter Two: Gender Justice and India’s Obligations under International Conventions pg.57
8. Chapter Three: Rape and Sexual Assault pg.70
9. Chapter Four: Sexual Harassment at the Workplace pg. 119
10. Chapter Five: Other Offences against Women pg.142
11. Chapter Six: Trafficking of Women and Children pg.152
12. Chapter Seven: Child Sexual Abuse pg.200
13. Chapter Eight: Khap Panchayats and Honour Killings pg.225
14. Chapter Nine: Sentencing and Punishment pg. 234
15. Chapter Ten: Provision of Adequate Safety Measures and Amenities in respect of Women
pg. 260
16. Chapter Eleven: Medico-Legal Examination of the Victim: pg. 272
17. Chapter Twelve: Police Reforms; pg. 312
18. Chapter Thirteen: Electoral Reforms: pg. 340
19. Chapter Fourteen: Education and Perception Reform pg. 383
20. Conclusions and Recommendations pg. 411
21. Appendix 1: Gazette Notification No. SO 3003(E) dated December 23, 2012 pg. 425
22. Appendix 2: List of Persons Interacted with by the Committee pg. 426
23. Appendix 3 Bill of Rights pg. 429
24. Appendix 4: Proposed Criminal Law Amendments pg. 434
25. Appendix 5: Proposed Amendments to the Representation of People Act, 1951 pg. 454
26. Appendix 6: Proposed Emergency Response System pg. 463
27. Appendix 7: Suggested Guidelines for Medical Examination of Sexual Assault Survivor; pg 465
28. Appendix 8: Suggested Protocol for Psychological Interventions in Sexual Assault/Rape
Pg. 471
29. Appendix 9: Transcript of Interview with Trafficked Girl pg. 477
30. Appendix 10: Transcript of Interview with Abused Children; pg. 510
31. Appendix 11: Requests for Information from the Committee to Various Governmental Authorities pg. 569

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby ramana » 26 Jan 2013 11:03

I think their scope was to recommend changes to the criminal law only. And note the report is to the PM and not any other minister.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby harbans » 26 Jan 2013 12:31

IMO it's a fair effort by the commission. But there is one thing that stands out stark. For so many decades we had this abominable finger test on victims, that experts have said is outdated and not required. Who is responsible for leaving such abominations in our system for decades. There have been so many ministries, judges, lawyers that have specifically dealt with this department and done nothing all this while. Why not pull up those who sat in responsible positions and did nothing all this while. Many of the points mentioned should have been in place in an evolving manner over decades.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby IndraD » 27 Jan 2013 01:49

The men handling the calls were not able to connect to the problems of women. We then hired women rehabilitated by NGOs. Because these women themselves have been victims of sexual violence, they are able to empathise with the women in distress."
One of the callers is a young woman who complains that she is being stalked by some men on a motorcycle on her way home from work.
She sounds afraid and can barely put her words together to register a complaint.
The team member who answers the call tries to calm her down.
"Don't worry, we are with you. Have you noted down the number of the bike they are following you on? Speak up without any fear," she consoles her.
This is a normal day at the special helpline set up by the Delhi government exclusively for women after the brutal gang rape of a young woman shook the capital last December.
It is a small room in a bustling government office, where a team of 12 women work round the clock in shifts and attend to calls.
Every day, they receive 2,500 to 3,000 calls from women who say they are in distress.
They complain of being stalked, receiving lewd text messages on their mobile phones, molestation and domestic violence.
The executives listen to each caller, take down details, counsel her, call up the police and ensure that the complaint is registered.
"After evening the number of calls increases tremendously. It is a stressful job but the satisfaction of helping a woman is immense," says Savita, a senior team member who uses only one name.
"Once we received a call from a woman complaining about a barking dog in her neighbourhood. We told her that we couldn't help her but she insisted that it was our duty to resolve the matter," Ms Savita says.
"After following up on certain calls, we discovered that some women had filed false complaints about their husbands only to harass them. It's a tricky business. No wonder we get calls from men asking for a helpline for them as well!"


BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-21177234

Imp to make sure, like anti dowry law, upcoming stringent rules are not abused/misused

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby SaiK » 27 Jan 2013 05:58

if I say there are many women abusing sharing of liability(2005 amendment) in hindu mitakshara law, how many will believe? leave the aam women alone here for a second. /OT/sorry.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby IndraD » 27 Jan 2013 15:03

Suggestions of the Congress party on changing anti-rape laws were delivered past midnight to Justice J S Verma leading to party chief Sonia Gandhi tendering an apology to him for the odd timing.

Justice Verma also said Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Finance Minister P Chidambaram were instrumental in forming the committee which gave far reaching recommendations favouring comprehensive amendments to criminal laws.

"Past mid-night, someone came to my residence, woke me up and wanted to hand over personally (the Congress party's suggestions). But somehow the Congress president came to know of it. She was very gracious and next day she rang me up personally and profusely apologised to my great embarrassment. I had to tell her do not do this," he told Karan Thapar on CNN-IBN's Devil's Advocate Programme.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 204606.cms
Sonia Gandhi has been gracious to me-Justice Verma

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby ramana » 27 Jan 2013 21:54

So midnight influencing going on?

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby IndraD » 28 Jan 2013 03:32

Tejendra Khanna, who heads the national capital's police department, on Friday urged gun-owning residents to put their weapons to "social service" and scare away potential molesters, The Indian Express said on Saturday.

"Gun owners with licences must roam lonely spots like bus stands each night and if they spot someone harassing a woman, they should use their weapon to stop the crime," the federal administrator said in a speech.


Delhi Lt General asks fire arm owners to come out to protect Delhi
http://www.emirates247.com/news/delhi-g ... 7-1.489766

Reacting on Delhi gang-rape incident, political philosopher Michael Sandel said the horrific incident may help India to emerge as more strong democratic country and helping democracy becoming more stronger.

http://daily.bhaskar.com/article/DEL-ja ... 5-NOR.html

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby SaiK » 28 Jan 2013 04:16

We may morph this thread by renaming it or proceed as is-
http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/arch ... 40438a.pdf
caution: 644 page document.

my search word was patriarchy.

Verma report:
31. We notice that the Preamble to the South African
Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair
Discrimination Act, 2000 includes an express
provision28 that “the consolidation of democracy in
our country requires eradication of social and economic
inequalities, especially those that are systemic in nature,
which were generated in our history by colonialism,
apartheid and patriarchy, and which brought pain and
suffering to the great majority of our people…..


And why does the firang media reports don't highlight this! than what I said in my earlier post. Jees.. idiots are not just from DDM, but infested all around the world. USA must actually implement verma report.

Other notes:
32. We think that the Preamble of our Constitution in
1950 proceeded to project these principles and
proceeded on the basis that economic and social
inequality was meant to be eradicated. The
objective was sufficiently large and was cognizant
of the oppression and discrimination which would
exist in a patriarchal society.

We are of the opinion that on account of the
patriarchal structure of our society, women have
been constantly marginalised and ignored. They
have gone through years and years of struggle.
On the other hand, we must not forget, they have
participated in equal measure in India’s freedom
movement, and the framing of the Constitution.

73. We quote with emphasis the following sentence,
which is crucial for the purpose of the present
debate: “For it led, among other things, to the
unwarranted acceptance of heterosexual teleology and to
the psychoanalytical sanction of the patriarchal
distributions of sexuality and power.” Borrowing
again from Bauer, a primary assumption of
Hirschfeld's doctrine of sexual intermediaries is
that, “there are no men and women, but only
human beings that are to a large extent male or to
a large extent female.”38

41. As E. Andrew suggests:
“Law is naturally conservative; it relies on precedent
and background assumptions and seeks interpretations
consistent with those assumptions. Legal change is,
accordingly, generally incremental. It is just enough
reform to look good to large segment of the public, to
preserve the system from collapse, and to make everyone
feel proud, but not enough reform as to wreak radical
change. Because of that, the nature of legal training is
likely to perpetuate historically dominant cultural tales
that have previously penetrated the law and are a break
on rapid change in the master narrative. Patriarchal
rape tales will not give up the ghost easily.”229

..and more.
report ref:

136 Chakravarti, U. 1993. 'Conceptualising Brahmanical patriarchy in
early India: Gender, caste, class and state', Economic and Political
Weekly, Volume(14): 579-85. See also; Baxi, P., Rai, S. M. and Ali, S. S.
2006. 'Legacies of common law crimes of honour in India and
Pakistan', Third World Quarterly, Volume(7): 1239-53.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby merlin » 28 Jan 2013 07:47

ramana wrote:So midnight influencing going on?


Without a doubt. Probably some loophole to allow Congress rapists off the hook.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby ramana » 28 Jan 2013 08:05

HN, I saw a picture of the 3" paring knives given out be Shiv Sena. If they had atleast hand out the Rampuri it would make a noise like a rattler snake and scare the less determined attacker.
The SS knives look like butter knives with ivory colored handle.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby Sachin » 28 Jan 2013 10:07

hnair wrote:create (confidential) specific reports for police, for trending names or locales, for further inquiries

The K.P seems to have started with such a scheme already. They have not given it much publicity, perhaps not to cause too much alarm in the general public. I remember reading about a plan in the local vernacular dailies nearly 2-3 months back. Another plan is to have a Victim Liaison Officer posted at every PS who would coordinate with the victims and their relatives in cases like rape.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby IndraD » 28 Jan 2013 17:38

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 222022.cms
One Delhi rape accused is a minor: Juvenile justice board
Read some comments
B'coz hi is a MUSLIM ???
Agree (43)Disagree (3)Recommend (34)

SHAMELESS Juvenile Justice Board !!!
Agree (43)Disagree (0)Recommend (32)

b@satard corrupt judges are main reason of rapes and murders cases .
Agree (31)Disagree (1)Recommend (23)

This is non sense....Look at the gravity of crime and not the age
Agree (38)Disagree (0)Recommend (19)

@All Indians & SC: Please set him free as soon as possible.... Once he will come out of the Jail... We-The People of India will make sure to hang him secretly in his own house... We-The people of India will make sure that THIS JUVENILE shall not breathe even a single day more after his release from JAIL... We-The People of India will at least full fill our 1/6th responsibility towards our sister .
Agree (23)Disagree (2)Recommend

HELPLESS TAXPAYER (Bangalore)
..Great People.. Weak judicial, Administrative & political system.. Wonderful loopholes to protect the corrupt & criminals.Vande Matram..
Agree (27)Disagree (0)Recommend (13)

This is guy who inserted the rod which ripped Nirbhaya's stomach.Now as per Indian law he will be punished with max 3yrs imprisonemnt. May be if his pictures are widely circulated,then when he's free,people can take care of him with Iron Rods..!!
Agree (14)Disagree (0)Recommend (10)

AND HE HAPPENED TO BE THE BIGGEST TORMENTOR OF THAT HAPLESS GIRL....................WA RE JUSTICE......................NOW THIS GOON WILL GO SCOT FREE..........................OTHER FIVE WILL ALSO MANAGE SOMETHING LIKE THEY WERE NOT THERE IN DELHI THAT DAY AND THEY WILL HAVE WITNESSES AVAILABLE FOR A FEW NOTES.......AND AS LAW IS BLIND AND GOES AS PER WITNESSES AND EVIDENCE................WHO KNOWS THESE FIVE BEASTS TOO MANAGE TO GO SCOT FREE"
Agree (17)Disagree (0)Recommend (9)


The board's ruling comes as a major setback to the demand for justice for 23-year-old victim, as the "minor accused" would now escape with maximum three-year observation at the children's remand home, even as he was alleged to be most brutal and active during the crime that took place in a moving bus.

The victim's father took a strong objection to the board's decision. Talking to Headlines Today over the phone from his hometown in Uttar Pradesh, Ballia, he said he would approach any court or authorities to seek justice for his dead daughter.

The girl's father said the board should have at least ordered a bone-ossification test on the accused before considering his certificate age as the final for his trial into the heinous crime case.

The board has thus rejected the Delhi Police's plea seeking the bone-ossification test to determine the exact age of the accused. The police had failed to prosecute him along with five other accused as he had claimed that he was under 18 on the day of crime, December 16, 2012.
The boy had appeared before the board earlier in the day, but was sent back to children's remand home on medical ground.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/sixt ... 47952.html

will some one explain why board didn't order bone ossification test in such a high profile case?

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby ramana » 28 Jan 2013 18:48

So Gen VK Singh school certificate is no good but rapist certificate is acceptable.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby chaanakya » 28 Jan 2013 19:14

IndraD wrote:
will some one explain why board didn't order bone ossification test in such a high profile case?


Well I was under impression that Bone Ossification test would have been ordered. Looks like the plea was rejected as the documentary evidence seemed conclusive enough not to warrant the test. Board has authority to decide in these matters. Challenge to this ruling would be in HC and then to SC. But I suspect that it is a foregone conclusion. Judiciary is largely in favour of criminal rights. Victims are damned by them . Verma commission is no exception.

He may get away lightly.

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Re: Delhi Case Follow-up thread

Postby chaanakya » 28 Jan 2013 19:15

ramana wrote:So Gen VK Singh school certificate is no good but rapist certificate is acceptable.

That is our Judiciary.


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