Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby ramana » 17 Jan 2013 21:29

And comparing MMS with Bismarck does not fit the reality!

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby shiv » 17 Jan 2013 22:02

ShauryaT wrote:Give the prime minister’s realism a little more credit. He has talked to Pakistan. Exaggerated rumours notwithstanding, he has not given away anything. This realism, following Vajpayee, has changed the international discourse on Kashmir. We have a long way to go. But it has given us the best chance we have had in decades of restoring some normalcy to Kashmir.


Dear Pratap Bhanu Mehtaji,

That is a beautiful piece you have written. Pardon me for picking up one small quote from your letter. I admit that our Prime Minister has not given anything away, and I do admit that the word "normalcy" and "Kashmir" have shown some tendency to go well together in the media. But your beautifully crafted opinion piece leaves out two very important things that compel me to write on here - in the hope that someone, perhaps even you, might see it.

First, about normalcy and Kashmir. Credit can only go to the military forces who have ensured that they have eliminated infiltrators and terrorists without alienating the population. Indian soldiers have died rather than use heavy firepower and scorched earth tactics to make the life of a terrorist infiltrator in Kashmir unlivable. Our Prime minister cannot take credit for this.

Second, you say that our PM has given nothing away. That is true. But he has not done what needs to be done either, nor have a series of governments and officials. And it is not difficult to do. It is an open fact, recorded by Pakistanis themselves that after 1973 the Pakistan education system has actively fostered hate towards Indians in general and Hindus in particular. I am sure you will yourself be able to find the relevant scholarly papers. If this mis-education started with ten years olds in 1973, we now have a huge number of Pakistanis under the age of 40 years - amounting to more than half the Pakistani population, as well as mid ranking army officers, diplomats and other Pakistanis in responsible positions who have a hatred for India indoctrinated into them.

These people will not automatically take to Indians. The hatred can perhaps be corrected and addressed but it will not happen by magic. It will not happen spontaneously. India has to actively point out to Pakistan at the highest levels that this must be corrected. And yes, one can expect that Pakistanis too will blame India (falsely as you know) that Indian education indoctrinates hate of Pakistan and Muslims. So much the better if the Pakistanis do that. Textbooks must be exchanged so that we can see what they teach and they can see what we teach. It is vital that the subject is raised and discussed.

Surely our PM and bureaucrats move in an exalted level of society with diplomats and ministers who are too sophisticated to show open hatred of Indians. but that hatred is very much there, seen, felt and experienced by Indians who interact with Pakistanis. How does our Prime minister believe that friendship can occur with the kind of indoctrination Pakistanis are getting? If our government knows this, the reason why they do not raise the subject with Pakistan mystifies me. Ours is an open society. Indians are intelligent enough to understand that Pakistanis may need re education and that we must be patient. But I do not hear so much as a chirp from the Indian government about something that has a deep impact on relations with Pakistan. Is our government ignorant? Or in denial?

If better relations between India and Pakistan are desired, it is not enough to preach to Indians and tell them they are wrong about Pakistanis. The Indian population must not be considered a bunch of aggressive illiterates who do not understand. Many of us do understand Pakistan, but we cannot understand why the government fails to talk to us and to Pakistan about basic issues that need to be changed before anything can get better.

And finally may I point out with deep respect and an apology that you have contradicted yourself in your otherwise fine piece? You have said that India must allow Pakistan to wallow in its contradictions. How can that happen if our PM insists on forcing India on Pakistan and forcing Pakistanis on Indians by liberalizing visas, discussing everything under the sun, sponsoring inane initiatives like "Aman ki Asha" and encouraging cultural and sport exchanges. If Pakistan must be left to wallow in its contradictions we must have less to do with them and not more. Surely sir, you have resorted to rhetoric that just does not make sense.

Thank you again for your beautiful piece of writing. We need not make war with Pakistan. But why force Indians to be friends with them?

Yours sincerely

shiv

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby ShauryaT » 17 Jan 2013 22:30

shiv wrote:Second, you say that our PM has given nothing away. That is true. But he has not done what needs to be done either, nor have a series of governments and officials. And it is not difficult to do.
......
We need not make war with Pakistan. But why force Indians to be friends with them?
The above is a fair critique and there are half a dozen more things that MMS should have done and has not, which have compromised Indian security and interests. Not make war and not be friends equates to forgeting they exist or not matter, unfortunately we do not have that luxury.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby pentaiah » 18 Jan 2013 03:22

Honestly we dont know

1) what we want
2) How to get out
3) The end game
4) Our capabilities

We know
1) How to divide ourselves
2) How to be a followers, blind most of the time (of the promises made)
3) How to explain away

Vogel: Why did you think it was so easy to exterminate your people? You're weakness. I saw it. Everyday I saw it. Everyone of them thinking only of how to avoid being flogged or kicked or killed. Everyone thinking only of themselves. Why do you think it only took four soldiers to lead a thousand people to the gas chambers? Because not one out of thousands had the courage to resist. Not one would sacrifice himself! Not even when we took they're children away! So I knew then, that you people had no right to live! You had no right...
[David suddenly smashes the bowl into Vogel's face and punches him again and again]


from
Image

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby SwamyG » 18 Jan 2013 04:43

Dear Concerned Citizen:
Thanks for your letter, if I was an aam admi I would have been tempted to write such a letter myself. You have done an admirable job. I doubt if any words from me and my co-Neta would convince you. However, I on behalf of them, would like to give it a try.

We are well aware that Pakistan is progressing from one disaster to another. The Army has been calling all the shots until recently. With the increased Talibanization of Pakistani, we are now facing rising warlords - very similar to the warlords of the 80s in Afghanisation. While you and the Indian public might wonder how we repeatedly display that we lack spine, you would agree with the situation of India. We have been climbing from our economic and social despair, slowly but steadily. And that has been our focus - growth of our citizens.

You are right to suspect that we are fools, and our public posture corroborates your thinking. It is now very clear that America fully knows the role of Pakistan; and we are in no position to convince America to divorce its relations with Pakistan. I cannot reveal State secrets, but please rest assured that our military and intelligence are working very hard in giving tit-for-tat replies. Meanwhile, America will continue to do what pleases it in the region. That is the challenge for us, having to handle America and Pakistan. While it makes sense for us to have a healthy relationship with America, there are still strategic reasons for us to engage with Pakistan overtly, while covertly we continue to defang the snake.

You might ask us, isn't it stupid to defang the snake so many times pointing out a better option would be to destroy the anthill it resides. Honestly, I do not know if we have the stomach to kill the snake and destroy the anthill, trees, bushes and the supporting environment. We are left with no choice but to tackle the snakes on a case to case basis, and hope other conditions change the environment in such a way that there are no more snakes.

From your perspective based on our words and actions, it does look like we have not figured out Pakistan. We have it figured it out, unfortunately the netas do not have the same luxury as the aam admi. Neither do the babus. Our words and actions have both electoral and international repercussions. If an actor dons the role of a donkey in the drama, he has to bray. So is our case, we have to dance and go through the tamasha that is commonly called as diplomacy. And we constantly are in the look out to extract mileage from social interactions; and ignore the ramblings of an individual cricketer or cleric; hoping and working to create bridges for our needs. I cannot reveal more on the behind the scenes work we continue to do, it would go against our intentions and hard work we have done so far. And neither do we want to advertise our modality and methods.

Sometimes, it is necessary for a State and its netas to step up and provide its citizens a sense of 'revenge' and 'accomplishment'; and we leaders have not done that because of our situation. We are not ready to push the nation to a war. An India-Pakistan war in 2013 is not the same as the Israeli-Palestine war or the Iran-Iraq war. A war cannot be only if we have the full support of the people. While there is growing antipathy towards Pakistani, it does not translate to support to war. And if we decide to go to war, who do we wage war against? As you have pointed out there are multiple power groups, who do we support? Who do we oppose? Do we willy-nilly bomb the military installations, cities and strategic interests? Assuming there is no nuclear war, and we defeat their military and militant groups, who will rule Pakistan? Do you expect us to engage in 'nation building' exercise trying to create a functioning country (or countries)? Isn't that money better spent in building India?

You are asking us to deliver something which we cannot deliver, both in public or in private.
ipadikki, your Neta.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby PratikDas » 18 Jan 2013 05:08

Then you should resign.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby shiv » 18 Jan 2013 10:10

:D Received on email
Dear Sir,
The Foreign Minister of Pakistan Ms. Hina Rabbani Khar frequently uses
the expression "tit for tat". Do these by any chance refer to
the twin appendages on her chest? If so who is tit and who is tat?

Lost in NJ.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby rajanb » 18 Jan 2013 10:20

^^^^
Being originally from Bakistan, just before partition days (Thank heavens), I could clarify this.

The left is tit and the right is tat. (The abovementioned appendages). However, I must point out that left and right are relative to the direction one is facing. It is different if you are facing abreast. Different if you are facing abutt.

Keeping in mind, (in mathematical terms an assumption), the copious use of pindi chana affecting the nether region, where I was lucky not to be born, I leave it to you all to chose your own direction, after calculating the quadratic implications of such pindi chana.

In other words, tit could become tat.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby RajeshA » 18 Jan 2013 14:04

SwamyG wrote:You are right to suspect that we are fools, and our public posture corroborates your thinking. It is now very clear that America fully knows the role of Pakistan; and we are in no position to convince America to divorce its relations with Pakistan. I cannot reveal State secrets, but please rest assured that our military and intelligence are working very hard in giving tit-for-tat replies. Meanwhile, America will continue to do what pleases it in the region. That is the challenge for us, having to handle America and Pakistan. While it makes sense for us to have a healthy relationship with America, there are still strategic reasons for us to engage with Pakistan overtly, while covertly we continue to defang the snake.


Dear Neta ji,
first of all congratulations on your round figure of 8000 posts.

Many citizens who follow the political and military dynamics of the region and America's role in it, are convinced, that you've not explored all measures possible to effect that divorce.

USA will not divorce itself from Pakistan. One could agree, but that is only true as long as America has a dialogue partner in Pakistan. Your strategy has always strengthened the hands of America's dialogue partner in Pakistan but never weakened them.

In case you are out of ideas as to how to bring this about, there are many ideas discussed on the Bharat-Rakshak Forum directed at that very change.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby Atri » 18 Jan 2013 14:34

Klaus wrote:Shiv ji, I thought the letter lost its purpose when it was addressed to the people who it was addressed to. Apologies if you find this comment corrosive but it is pointless indulging in this activity when you know that the JLN fostered system (including BJP) have a symbiotic relationship with the idea of Pakistan, i.e their fates are inter-twined.

Our leaders would not acknowledge anything which would open up a path for their fall.



abhisheka wrote:Dear Shiv,
Let me give you the perspective from Nayi Dilli. We, along with our Pakistani and Bangladeshi brothers are the Indo-Gangestanis(which consists of almost a billion inhabitants) and we Delhi-walas occupy the center of the Indo-Gangetic plain. Hindus and Muslims are perfectly balanced in Indo-Gangestan. The misogyny, lawlessness, feudalism is exactly the same. For centuries we were ruled by the same bigots. We share the same rivers and even some of the states! The South of Vindhyas are simply outer territories(However, thanks for the taxes your inhabitants pay for our upkeep!).You can surely understand why we consider that Gujarati Narendra Modi as a mortal enemy. Just because we Indo-Gangestanis fight amongst ourselves, doesn't mean that a foreign invader like Narendra Modi can colonize us. We successfully ousted the Marathas from Delhi in 1761(Thank you Afghan brothers!) and in 2014, we shall defeat Modi with our Pakistani fraands. Indo-Gangestan zindabad!

Your fraandly,
Typical Delhi ass-hat politshun.


Dear Klaus und Abhishek ji,

Here are some of the old posts by yours truly... 2009 elections and inaction of GOI after 26/11 was my moment of Nirvana. I am at peace, since then !!!

viewtopic.php?p=934847#p934847

Atri wrote:What about the splinters, Rajesh ji? The cure for Sindhu valley goes via Ganga valley only. The proposition which you gave forth (in managing tsp failure dhaga) has this drawback.

Even if TSPA is dismembered and "enclaves" for "minorities" are set up in pakjab and Sindh, the preferential treatment towards "Dharmiks" to such an extent for such a length of time that RoPers start converting to Indic fold (within 20 years, you say) can happen only when Ganga is cleared off.

I would like to make a statement. The spiritual father for "idea of Pakistan" is not 3.5 fathers, it is Upper Ganga valley. It is from here, that this idea arose, it is here that sought legitimacy (in principle, not political). the 3.5 men are merely the foster-fathers of this Child of Ganga.

The fathers in Ganga valley will not allow this child to die so easily because it then means that the guns will turn towards them. TSPA is an insurance for many other players apart from Saudi Arabia and Turkey. It is primary insurance of string-holding Islamists of upper Gangetic plains. The child and father will have to be addressed simultaneously.

There cannot be a "serial" algorithm to tackle this problem. This is an "Accumulated Junk" of 1000 years. It has to be addressed in parallel. This is again what I emphasized in my previous post. The "confusion of Pune" was precisely this in 1700's.


viewtopic.php?p=784268#p784268

Atri wrote:The biggest stake holders in India is the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty. The modern Republic of India, however it is, is mostly built by Indian National Congress (INC). So, they have plenty of invested interests and efforts and money and memories in this country.

This dynasty will do anything to maintain its interests, which is whole nation. The dynasty won't do anything which will compromise their position of power in independent India. According to Newton's first law of motion, An object continues to be in state of rest or uniform motion unless acted upon by some unbalanced force. Here, the object is India under dynasty. The dynasty will move in the direction of the force which overcomes the equilibrium of competing forces. This applies to internal forces like Hindutva and Naxalism as well as external forces like interests of USA, Russia, China, Evangelical forces and Jihadi Islamism. The dynasty will compromise anything to maintain a strong presence in India's power circle. Dynasty is typically a status-quo loving entity, especially in post Indira Gandhi era. In case when they are in power, they try to consolidate their power without trying to be intrepid and doing things out of the way. They show typical behaviour of North Indian power Satrap described in this article.

PVNR-Manmohan Singh jodi (liberalization-1991) and Vajpayee (nuclear tests-1998) provided the radical internal unbalancing forces which dramatically changed the trajectory of India. Now that the trajectory is fixed, the dynasty, whenever in power, will do anything to ensure that the new trajectory remains unchanged. I am glad that communists never got such a chance to introduce a defining change in trajectory of India.

Now, it is alleged that Gandhi dynasty have been increasingly acting as puppets of foreign powers since the death of Indira Gandhi. Recently, a lawsuite for $ 100 million was filed by Indian National Overseas Congress on few Hindu leaders in New-york supreme court against defamation of Sonia Gandhi.

http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=14654132

$100m lawsuit against US Hindu leaders New York: New York-based Indian National Overseas Congress Inc (INOC) has filed a lawsuit in the Supreme Court of the State of New York for $100 million against three prominent Hindu activists Narain Kataria, Arish Sahani and Bharat Barai for allegedly defaming UPA Chairperson Sonia Gandhi by releasing a full page advertisement in The New York Times during her October visit to the US. The plaintiff Dr Surinder Malhotra, Chief Executive Officer of INOC states in the complaint in New York Supreme court that false statements had been made in the advertisement about his boss Sonia Gandhi and her son Rahul Gandhi in The New York Times dated October 6. INOC has hired a law firm which had represented Ariel Sharon of Israel against Time magazine.



Apparently this lawsuite was defeated in the court. This proves that courts did not find the lawsuite holding any weightage. Which inturns leads us to speculation that the allegations made by them against Sonia might be true.

In case, we assume that external agencies have invested a lot INC and Gandhi dynasty and that they are at the best influenced by foreign agents or at the worst have become puppets of external forces, this leads us nowhere. What matters is, if there is some iota of truth in this hypothesis, what next?Because, Gandhi dynasty has returned to power in general elections 2009 with conclusive defeat of both BJP and more importantly, Communists. Now that they are back to the position of supreme power yet again, how will their behavior be, with respect to their alleged foreign string-holders.

For this, we have to look into the history of Gandhi dynasty and then speculate the reasons why this has been.

It was most probably after assassination of Indira Gandhi, when Rajiv Gandhi was forced into politics out of his peaceful life. It has been a fight for survival for Rajmata and her kids since then. The complex geopolitical factors caused death of her husband as well. After assassination of Rajiv Gandhi, she went into complete oblivion and took herself and her children away from Indian political scenario.

For some reasons, she entered national political scene. The probable reasons are
1. Increasing clout of BJP and Vajpayee.
2. Need of INC to invoke the name of Gandhi dynasty to maintain their political presence and power.

Hence she was urged to enter active politics. Why did Sonia Gandhi accept this offer is the biggest enigma. She knew what mess she was getting into. But, perhaps meanwhile she had renewed the old contacts and built some new ones (both internal and external) which became the powerful friends of her dynasty. Without this support and insurance, she would never have entered the power-mess of Indian politics which was experiencing a major shift away from INC and towards BJP and Hindutva.

Once she entered the political scenario of India, the magic of her dynasty slowly started working. The old Indira - designed system was renewed and old investments, political apointees were called upon to do the bidding of the dynasty. This coupled with India-Shining Fiasco of Vajpayee govt, led to INC and hence gandhi dynasty coming back to power in 2004, although, with the help of communists.

Last 5 years have been interesting to observe. The drastic changes in geopolitics of globe and region have started to force upon the dynasty to execute certain steps which will bring India strategically away from communism and socialism. The Indian Chanakyas in Ministry of External Affairs and other ministries must have seen this as an opportunity to increase the clout of India as well earn some money. It is the "Ganga Beh rahi hain, haath dho lo"attitude which was displayed by MMS during the entire Indo-US nuke deal process. MMS govt showed the shrewdness of an attractive girl flirting with 2-3 boyfriends simultaneously and extracting things which she perceives as goodies. The results in 2009 General elections have shown that Sonia Gandhi and Gandhi Dynasty is at the zenith of her power and she is as safe as she can ever be along with all her political investments.

The point now is, how will she and hence the kids, move ahead. As I have elucidated earlier, the KGB stuff was need of Rajmata during her Vanvaas. Now that she is safely and soundly back in her palace at Indraprastha without dogged pursuit of commies, will the dynasty show the guts to slowly eliminate the foreign influences or not? This is based on initial assumption that all men of power desire more power-absolute power.

One more interesting speculation. MMS also seems to be a Mahatma Vidur. Does he have anything up his sleeve that will be a pleasant surprise?


I do not thing Abhishek ji was generalizing Indo-Gangestanis. Sikhs were Sindhu-Vaasi as well. So were Bundelas.

Either a Parshuram OR a sustained movement over centuries can cure the Aasurik scum entrenched in IG-valley. Aasurik is not a religious term. Asuras need to be eliminated, irrespective of religion, priority of elimination of abrahmic asuras should take precedence over Indic asuras.

Fantastic letter, Shiv ji... Pasting it on other fora !!!

The GOI's TSP policy of having no policy needs to be publicized.
Last edited by Atri on 18 Jan 2013 14:47, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby RajeshA » 18 Jan 2013 14:42

Atri garu,

your link to a post from over two years ago, made me have a look at it and think about the journey my own thinking has had. :)

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby abhishek_sharma » 18 Jan 2013 19:11

Atri wrote:Here are some of the old posts by yours truly... 2009 elections and inaction of GOI after 26/11 was my moment of Nirvana. I am at peace, since then !!!


I am glad you brought up 2009 elections. Here are the state-wise results of that election. Can you list which states voted for the ruling coalition? Are all of them in the Gangetic planes? Did all states in Gangetic plane vote for this government? Now, do you understand what I meant by unfair generalization?

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby ShauryaT » 19 Jan 2013 04:28

Redefining Indo-Pakistan relations

This is a climacteric of sorts in India-Pakistan relations. The question is whether the Indian government will muster other than the usual policy of sceptical inaction to any promising development across the border. It is fortuitous that Pakistan is being compelled by domestic factors to become more reasonable where India is concerned. New Delhi can help this positive trend to take root by rolling out policies to reinforce it, as part of a larger strategy to distance Pakistan from China, and break the nexus between them. Such a policy will, moreover, be in line with the Operational Directive issued to the Indian Armed Services in 2009 by defence minister A K Antony instructing them to redirect their main effort China-ward.

If imaginatively handled, this could be the great breakthrough in relations between the two countries with tremendous natural affinities. However, hollow gestures by New Delhi won’t do. Unilateral and substantive actions that are at once low-risk but politically and militarily potent will obtain disproportionate results. For instance, India can unilaterally remove all liquid-fuelled Prithvi missiles with nuclear warheads from the border with Pakistan. This is a zero risk confidence-and-security-building measure because all target sets within that country are in any case covered by the longer range Agni missiles. To insist on reciprocity in such force draw-downs as the government and even Indians participating in track two diplomacy have been doing in the last few years, is a grave mistake because it, in effect, endows Pakistan with parity that it craves but in no way deserves. Unilateral Indian actions in the military and trade spheres and the easing of the visa regime, will create the right momentum (that can survive the localised firing/killing incidents on the Line of Control).

Pakistan’s move to redefine its military doctrine is no small thing and marks an end point of a progression from Ayub Khan’s days when the myth of a Muslim being the equal of scores of Hindus was propagated. (The last believer in such martial nonsense, ironically, seems to be the Andhra MLA Akbaruddin Owaisi) It doesn’t mean that General Headquarters, Rawalpindi, will tomorrow stand down its forces. It does mean that the Pakistan Army — feeling more secure with nuclear weapons in hand — is rethinking its threats and perceives India as less of a danger to Pakistan than the armed religious zealots. It affords India the opportunity to rework its own military stance, emphasising China as both the imminent and immanent threat. Such emphasis will, in turn, raise the Pakistan Army’s comfort level with a more easeful posture of its own. Only good can come from such mutually reinforcing moves.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby ShauryaT » 19 Jan 2013 04:30

Out of control on the Line of Control

Thus, the Manmohan Singh government kept aloof from the beheading hullabaloo for some 10 days, saying and doing nothing to suggest that a breakdown of the diplomatic interaction was in the offing, and using IAF Chief Marshal Browne and Gen. Bikram Singh to signal its anger.
But then it abruptly capitulated in the face of the media-induced hysteria, exposing once again India’s absence of strategic vision of course, but also the lack of conviction and political will to persist with policy initiatives that New Delhi, in any case, will be compelled to revive after the situation cools down.

This is to say that India’s bilateral relations with Pakistan will, in practice, have to be more nuanced and multi-layered. The composite talks have to be resumed, but larger volumes of trade and commerce between the two countries do not have to depend on the Sir Creek issue being resolved tomorrow, or a solution for the Kashmir dispute being nigh, and neither does the whole slew of interactions in the other spheres — sports meets, the movement of drama troupes and cinema and music stars, and the easing of visa norms to allow freer travel and tourism. None of this means India and Pakistan will see eye to eye on Afghanistan, China, the US, Indian Ocean, or nuclear strategic issues. Even less likely is it to blunt the combative instincts of the Indian and Pakistan militaries. Therefore, there will continue to be tensions, and cross-border firings and inconsequential artillery duels, which should be left to the directors-general, military operations, and flag meetings to deal with. The future of South Asia cannot anymore be hostage to isolated incidents and occurrences involving the Indian and Pakistani Armies.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby PratikDas » 19 Jan 2013 04:41

ShauryaT wrote:Redefining Indo-Pakistan relations

Pakistan’s move to redefine its military doctrine is no small thing and marks an end point of a progression from Ayub Khan’s days when the myth of a Muslim being the equal of scores of Hindus was propagated. (The last believer in such martial nonsense, ironically, seems to be the Andhra MLA Akbaruddin Owaisi) It doesn’t mean that General Headquarters, Rawalpindi, will tomorrow stand down its forces. It does mean that the Pakistan Army — feeling more secure with nuclear weapons in hand — is rethinking its threats and perceives India as less of a danger to Pakistan than the armed religious zealots. It affords India the opportunity to rework its own military stance, emphasising China as both the imminent and immanent threat. Such emphasis will, in turn, raise the Pakistan Army’s comfort level with a more easeful posture of its own. Only good can come from such mutually reinforcing moves.


Has BK taken a recent penchant to being dim? He must be in lala land to not realise that Pakistan and China are one military threat.

ShauryaT wrote:Out of control on the Line of Control

Thus, the Manmohan Singh government kept aloof from the beheading hullabaloo for some 10 days, saying and doing nothing to suggest that a breakdown of the diplomatic interaction was in the offing, and using IAF Chief Marshal Browne and Gen. Bikram Singh to signal its anger.
But then it abruptly capitulated in the face of the media-induced hysteria, exposing once again India’s absence of strategic vision of course, but also the lack of conviction and political will to persist with policy initiatives that New Delhi, in any case, will be compelled to revive after the situation cools down.

This is to say that India’s bilateral relations with Pakistan will, in practice, have to be more nuanced and multi-layered. The composite talks have to be resumed, but larger volumes of trade and commerce between the two countries do not have to depend on the Sir Creek issue being resolved tomorrow, or a solution for the Kashmir dispute being nigh, and neither does the whole slew of interactions in the other spheres — sports meets, the movement of drama troupes and cinema and music stars, and the easing of visa norms to allow freer travel and tourism. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: None of this means India and Pakistan will see eye to eye on Afghanistan, China, the US, Indian Ocean, or nuclear strategic issues. Even less likely is it to blunt the combative instincts of the Indian and Pakistan militaries. Therefore, there will continue to be tensions, and cross-border firings and inconsequential artillery duels, which should be left to the directors-general, military operations, and flag meetings to deal with. The future of South Asia cannot anymore be hostage to isolated incidents and occurrences involving the Indian and Pakistani Armies.


What a royal *******. How would he like to be the cause de celebre for the next "hullabaloo"? Just reinforces the point that these government chamchas see the Indian soldier as the sacrificial goat.

Secondly, what media-induced hysteria is he talking about? I only saw the notable media idiots - Barkha Dutt, Rajdeep Sardesai, Ajai Shukla and an assortment of Pakistani idiots tell everyone why we had no cause for consternation.

If the government responding to the citizen's opinion is BK's idea of "capitulation" then I wonder what he thinks the government is voted to office for?

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby shiv » 19 Jan 2013 06:00


It is disappointing to see Bharat Karnad slip into this.

I was tempted to rip that article to shreds line by line - but decided against it. I think Bharat Karnad is fairly ignorant about Pakistan, He makes glaring booboos in the article. I will list 3 errors

1. That unilateral measures will change the Pakistani mindset. Pakistan has nt done the most basic act of helping trade by according India MFN status and has failed to act against Indian criiminals in Pakistan

2. Gen Kiyani comes in for praise for acknowledging that terrorism is a problem. But just one year ago, Kiyani said that India is the prime enemy - and even then everyone could see that terrorism was Pakistan's problem

3. The problem is not about Madrassas. The state education system also inculcates hatred

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby ShauryaT » 19 Jan 2013 09:01

Shiv ji: I know, you are well capable of shredding the articles to pieces. BK in my view, does not know Pakistan society as an observer the way you do, for the time you have invested on the matter and I respect that. However, what he does know better than you, IMO is to craft a policy that has a semblance of reality attached to them and something that is within the realm of possibilities and probabilities - At least on Pakistan.

I posted a few contrarian views to yours here to highlight the fact that even fairly apolitical people do not see Pakistan the way you do. Even the most hawkish of analysts (not referring to BK) that I know of, wants to engage with Pakistan and seek to increase socio-political-economic linkages. This is something for you to ponder over or maybe you have already done so. My hope is you would not dismiss them outright as being ill informed.

PS: Added some clarifying words.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby SSridhar » 19 Jan 2013 10:31

ShauryaT, I have not yet read that BK article. However, if he says that unilateral measures will change Pakistani mindset, that is a load of rubbish and one doesn't need to have followed the Pakistani society closely to conclude like this. Pakistan was an extension of Jinnah's Muslim lLeague. Both Muslim League and later his Pakistan were showered with so many unilateral measures. Nothing ever worked. Later Jinnah's Pakistan became even more Islamist and fundamentalist. The Army became Islamized and was directly running their foreign policy. They wanted to avenge 1971 and have ever since been prepared to go to any extent to achieve that. This unilateral appeasement business was always rejected with disdain by them as they moved towards acquiring the ultimate weapon and their delivery to all nooks and corners of India. Today Pakistan has taken the third step, that of moving towards the pinnacle of jihadi Islamism, namely salafi/takfiri Islamism. Even the Army is becoming inconsequential. In a few years' time, the Pakistan Army will be remembered as 'angels' because that will be the level of cruelty that one can expect from the groups that will replace them in Pakistan. The goal of the third step is vastly different from avenging 1971. We have seen that the Indian unilateral measures have only been abused to subvert us, to destabilize us and bring us misery. The people who are about to come to power in Pakistan will treat our unilateralism with utter contempt that it deserves and will treat them as stemming from extreme dhimmitude. They will act accordingly.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby Prem » 19 Jan 2013 11:46

BK= Barra Kharab analysis of South Asia . South Asia hai Tho India Nahi or If Indian interests are to be promoted then South Asia must nr Nahi Nahi . Indians do not go to vote electing South Asian Prime Minister.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby shiv » 19 Jan 2013 14:05

Shaurya - about Karnad I get the feeling that the man feels that India is paying too much attention to a Pakistan that does not need so much attention and that we need to be paying a lot more attention to China. He seems to be somewhat dismissive of Pakistan as a threat and feels that what we have arrayed against Pakistan is enough to scare them and make them dysfunctional. He feels that they might show a greater likelihood of behaving rationally if India appeared to be less of a threat.

My objections to Karnad's views are as follows:

China used Pakistan as a "cheap hedge" against India. In other words Pakistan could be cheaply armed by China to keep India off balance because of India's twin fear of China and Pakistan. A failing Pakistan actually makes China less secure precisely because India can now concentrate more resources against China. To that extent Karnad is correct. But I disagree that this is the time to let Pakistan off the hook because their utility to China is not over yet. China is still instrumental in providing Pakistan with much needed military and diplomatic assistance. Ensuring Pakistan's utter failure and helping Pakistan become a completely dysfunctional state that poses a threat to everyone, China included is essential.

To my mind that means India continuing on its policy of being able to fight a two front war, and staying a threat to Pakistan so they ask China for more and more aid, putting China in the position where they must decide whether they openly come out with Pakistan and against India, or they back off on Pakistan. If India lets Pakistan off the hook now, and attempts to stabilize Pakistan, china wil once again be tempted to play Pakistan against India. that plan must fail along with Pakistan.

Pakistan needs to be put under pressure now more than at any other time in the past.
Last edited by shiv on 19 Jan 2013 16:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby RajeshA » 19 Jan 2013 15:45

shiv saar,

I agree with Bharat Karnad "in a sort of a way"! I think we should be following two very different strategies with how to deal with Pakistan and China!

With Pakistan we should be following a strategy focused on internal disruption and aggressive border security. With China we should be following a more classic military parity strategy based on weapon systems, C4I, regular forces. The advances we make in weapon systems would of course come to use in both cases.

But before one makes any military plans for permanent solutions in Pakistan, Pakistan needs a lot more softening up, and for that India needs to create a lot more military fragmentation there with a majority of groups taking orders from Delhi directly or indirectly, with or without their knowledge.

If we have a massive program of controlled destabilization of Pakistan going on, then it is okay to redeploy some of the forces away from the Pakistan border. Otherwise no reason.

I don't think we are really in the thick of things in Pakistan. And the TSPA is still a viable group and a viable partner for USA/UK, China and Saudi Arabia. So our work is not finished there. I don't even know if it has started yet.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby RajeshA » 19 Jan 2013 20:52

Pujaniya Manmohan Singh ji,

My little wish as a citizen is that you, as our learned PM, install a couple of confidence-building measures between India and Pakistan which are directed solely towards Pakistani women and have nothing to do with religion!

I would want Pakistani women to be mentioned by name - "Pakistani women" in the CBM agreement.

Let's take the Peace Process forwards! These Hindu fundamentalists would sabotage your mission of peace every time. This time they did it by losing their head needlessly. Let's first make peace with Pakistani women, as with Pakistani men, it seems a bit difficult right now. That would be less controversial in India. May be these nasty Hindu fundamentalists would overlook such less controversial measures.

Thank you.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby Prem » 20 Jan 2013 04:21

Poojya, South Asian Pardhan Mantri M. M Singh?

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby Pratyush » 20 Jan 2013 07:39

ramana wrote:Neville Chamberlain also led the Great Britain into World War II with his peace at any cost with Hitler's Germany drivel.
That appeasement did not prevent WWII and in fact emboldened Nazi Germany.

Same way MMS appaeasement of TSP will not bring peace and will lead eventually to war.


Sorry for the delayed read of you post. What makes you think that MMS is ignorant of history.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby ramana » 20 Jan 2013 08:52

Maybe you know his awareness for I was giving him benefit of doubt.

If he knowingly is doing it then he should go for a name change:
Munichmohan Singh.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby Prem » 20 Jan 2013 09:42

Dear PM Sahib,
We appreciate your concern for the Muslim Community who we all know is very backward and marginalized because of Muslims elites's flight to Pakistan and lack of secular , scientific education. When you declare Muslims have the first right to over Indian resources , please clarify for us Hindu and Sikh foster children of present national dispensation if your "Muslim" term includes all South Asian Muslims Ummah or has only regional connotation.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby Raja Bose » 20 Jan 2013 15:05

shiv wrote::D Received on email
Dear Sir,
The Foreign Minister of Pakistan Ms. Hina Rabbani Khar frequently uses
the expression "tit for tat". Do these by any chance refer to
the twin appendages on her chest? If so who is tit and who is tat?

Lost in NJ.


In case of Madame Khar, the appendages above her waist are called tit and the ones below are called tat (in punjabi).

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby eklavya » 20 Jan 2013 15:42

ShauryaT wrote:Out of control on the Line of Control

The future of South Asia cannot anymore be hostage to isolated incidents and occurrences involving the Indian and Pakistani Armies.


What a stupid and disgusting scumbag. Is the Pakistan Army a Non State Actor that their actions are to be ignored? I would like BK to make his arguments to the mother and wife of the soldiers that were murdered. I would like to hear his "analysis" if his own son had been decapitated by the Pakistan Army and the head taken as a trophy by the enemy.
Last edited by eklavya on 20 Jan 2013 16:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby Pratyush » 20 Jan 2013 16:08


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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby Pratyush » 20 Jan 2013 16:12

ramana wrote:Maybe you know his awareness for I was giving him benefit of doubt.

If he knowingly is doing it then he should go for a name change:
Munichmohan Singh.



Any one who visited UK post WW2 will know about role appeasement played and the consequent embodiment of Hitler. He was educated in Oxford was he not.

So yes, he ought to change his name to Munichmohan Singh

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby shiv » 20 Jan 2013 18:44

Pratyush wrote:Shiv Ji,

What to say about this

RSS, BJP camps promoting Hindu terrorists: Shinde


:D

It's not making me angry enough because it's making me laugh.

People who say this are, IMO useful idiots, but their usefulness dwindles if there is no terrorism from Pakistan. The interesting thing is what will happen if Pakis conduct an atrocity 2 months before the general election?

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby Cosmo_R » 20 Jan 2013 18:57

RSS, BJP camps promoting Hindu terrorists: Shinde

:D

It's not making me angry enough because it's making me laugh.

People who say this are, IMO useful idiots, but their usefulness dwindles if there is no terrorism from Pakistan. The interesting thing is what will happen if Pakis conduct an atrocity 2 months before the general election?


This Shinde moron has just given a free pass to the pakis. Now, any ISI op can buy time because they can claim it is 'Hindu terror'--enough time to get the US to urge restraint until 'more info comes to light' etc. Talk about cutting oneself at the knees.

The spirit of jaichand lives on. We have really met the enemy and he's in charge

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby IndraD » 20 Jan 2013 19:31

These are shadow of |Rahul baba taking over reins. These statements are favourite of Rahul, Sonia and manmohan. Shinde is just wagging the tail. As election comes near we will see more arrests of Hindus in name of terror charges, more statements lke Osamaji amar rahe, Kasab was brainwashed, Pakis are real friends, why not have one currency etc etc. These exfart comments are byproduct of Sonia kirtan shivir always.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby vishvak » 20 Jan 2013 21:15

Hindu terrorism => guild feeling for Hindus and confusion on tolerating terrorist attacks.
Arrest of Hindus => same, in order for Hindus to not see terrorism as a factor when elections are around the corner
Media blackout => Complete cover of ignorance and silence on corruption and lack of accountability
Criticism of other parties => Even from position of rule, the Govt is at a complete loss at ruling so shortcut of criticism to make others look worse
Secularism => Selective secularism for Hindus alone as acceptable behavior that can go unpunished to hide complete lack of secularism in parts of India.

That is what could be figured out as strategy of rulers.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby member_22872 » 20 Jan 2013 21:58

A lie often repeated will seep into collective psyche and will become truth. Few years back there was no such term as 'hindu terror', then came rahul baba and Diggy introducing these terms and now we have Shinde's comments. What is different now is that 'Hindu terror' is now GoI accepted term for Shinde is a minister. It means a lot. Now we have TSP gov in exile in India working for unified South Asian gov whose capital is Islamabad. We just need a Paki flag flying on top of Red Fort.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby eklavya » 21 Jan 2013 01:59

CIA to exempt strikes on Pakistan from drones codification

John Brennan, the counter-terrorism adviser nominated by President Obama to be the next head of the CIA, has reportedly agreed to exempt agency strikes in Pakistan from a new set of rules that attempts to justify and codify the use of drones to assassinate leaders of al-Qaida and other terrorist groups around the world, including US citizens.

The decision to give the US targeted-killing programme the appearance of legal propriety by codifying it, and now the temporary exemption granted from that codification to Pakistan, were both taken by Brennan. A counter-terrorism expert with 25 years experience in the CIA, his nomination to run the agency has raised eyebrows among civil liberties groups because of his senior role in the CIA under George W Bush at a time when torture was used on terror suspects and because of his fondness for drone strikes.

Targeted killing has been a particularly pronounced facet of US strategy in Pakistan. The UK-based Bureau of Investigative Journalism estimates that there have been 362 drone strikes in the country since 2004 – 310 of them launched on Obama's watch. The strikes have killed up to 3,461 people, 891 of them civilians.


Dr. Manmohan Singh, please take note of how Nobel Peace Prize winners deal with Pakistan. Your journey to Oslo has hardly begun, but its never too late ...

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby shiv » 21 Jan 2013 15:30

shiv wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Shiv Ji,

What to say about this

RSS, BJP camps promoting Hindu terrorists: Shinde


:D

It's not making me angry enough because it's making me laugh.

People who say this are, IMO useful idiots, but their usefulness dwindles if there is no terrorism from Pakistan. The interesting thing is what will happen if Pakis conduct an atrocity 2 months before the general election?


Dear Shri Shindeji,

I thank you for boldly saying that it is in BJP and RSS camps that Hindu terror is being promoted. You are among the few Congress politicians with the boldness and honesty to admit that religion and terror are linked. You have pointed out that the media have reported Hindu terror or saffron terror. I agree with you that there should be no saffron terror or terror camps. Hindus, who claim to be peace lovers have no business setting up terror camps.

It is important that all forms of religious terror should be stamped out. If BJP and RSS leaders are promoting Hindu terror, they must be dealt with strictly according to the secular laws of our land. Once we recognize Hindu terror we should be prepared to look at Sikh terror, Jain terror, Buddhist terror and Christian terror also. Terrorists come from all religions. No religion is exempt.

But sir, I would request you not to mention Muslim terror. Yes, I do understand that there is a such a thing as Muslim terror also because no religion is exempt from producing terrorists. You have already mentioned Hindu terror, but in your wisdom you have kept quiet about Muslim terror. I would like to express my appreciation to you for that. As the Home minister of India, and as a stalwart member of the Congress party I am sure you understand that "Muslim terror" is a sensitive subject. You know that Indian Muslims would be upset if you spoke of Muslim terror. Misguided hindutvadis, supporters of saffron terror, have argued that Indian Muslims will not feel hurt if we speak of Muslim terror from Pakistan, but I think you, minister sir, will know better than that. You believe that Indians Muslims feel offended when we say something negative about Pakistan. So even if Muslim terror comes from Pakistan we must not mention it. It is alright to speak of Hindu terror. Hindus being upset will not try and destroy their own country. But I am sure you are wise and you know that if you mention Muslim terror Indian Muslims will get angry and cause communal tensions. So Muslims must be treated with kid gloves. Muslim terror must not be mentioned. If it occurs, we must say that terror knows no religion. Terror is secular, like the Congress party.

The Congress party treats Indian Muslims as if they are Pakistanis at heart. Like foreigners, not Indians. You believe that they do not want to be told anything negative, or be told that there is Muslim terror. So your party has always skirted the issue of Muslim terror and has always stood up in support of Indian Muslims accused of terror. Your party has always opposed the people who make an accusation of terror against Muslims. Your party believes that the secular fabric of India will be ripped apart if you antagonize Muslims. It is perfectly OK to call Hindus terrorists as you have done. You know that Hindus will not riot and destroy their own house even if you, our home minister calls Hindus terrorists by speaking of Hindu terror. But you will not accuse Indian Muslims similarly.

I thank you and the Congress party for maintaining the secular fabric of this land. After all insulting Hindus in India is OK. Hindus are tolerant. Tolerant people will take insults. We must not insult intolerant people no? It is the intolerant people who cause trouble. So please go ahead sir and be honest about Hindu terror and expose it if it occurs. You know you will get no trouble from Hindus for saying that. If something looks like Muslim terror, let us all agree to keep quiet and protect the secular fabric of India which the Congress party represents.

Yours sincerely

shiv

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby member_22872 » 21 Jan 2013 17:15

Cross posting from TIRP thread:
Sushupti wrote:Image

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby RajeshA » 21 Jan 2013 17:48

It's interesting how India became a Hindu Terrorist country under Congress rule without Hindus having done anything, all because the Indian Home Minister ordained it under the able direction of UPA-2 leadership.

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Re: Open Letter to Indian Political Leaders about Pakistan

Postby PratikDas » 22 Jan 2013 10:35

Sorry to use specific names, but I would just love to see shyamd, ShauryaT and supporters try and justify Shinde's comments with theories of 'long term' chanakyanness reacting with 'short term' chanakyanness or some such. Whatever the theories may be, therein lies the gooey foundation for the excreta that is this Government.

The dog is down and every politician and his relative is out to kick it. The dog just happens to be India, unfortunately.


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