The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 10 Jun 2014 10:57

Orthodox vedic pandits do not give a 'damn' for modern Indian nationalism.They are not against it,but do not give a damn to it.And modern indian nationalists,for the most part,have zero formal training in vedic paatashalas or from a vedic pandit.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 10 Jun 2014 11:13

svenkat wrote:Orthodox vedic pandits do not give a 'damn' for modern Indian nationalism.They are not against it,but do not give a damn to it.And modern indian nationalists,for the most part,have zero formal training in vedic paatashalas or from a vedic pandit.

Let all do what they do best! And what has not been can still be developed!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 11 Jun 2014 12:55

Published on Jun 11, 2014
By Rajeev Srinivasan
Modi right to ditch English but he should speak Sanskrit at UN: Firstpost

The fact that Prime Minister Narendra Modi has decided to speak Hindi with his foreign visitors is a clear statement of principle: there is no need to apologise for Indian-ness, nor is there the need to consider English the be-all and end-all. I liked this view in Firstpost that this helps put the Indian back in Indian-ness. The fact that a number of MPs took their oaths in Sanskrit is further evidence that the age of the unquestioned kowtowing to foreign tongues is coming to an end. Vive la difference, as the French might say.

This is why an uncompromising stand on language – for example, I believe Prime Minister Modi should read his prepared speeches at the UN, etc, in Sanskrit and it will be interpreted for others – is a proper part of a cultural reawakening and self-assertion. Indians don’t need to be colonised in the mind any more.

Very good article. Read the whole thing!

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Jun 2014 13:11

In a related note the leader of INC in LS, taunts that Pandavs were few, but they defeated Kauravas.

To which i responded that the good news is that the Mahabharata is quoted by the INC and not some Euro trash.

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 11 Jun 2014 13:51

Pratyush wrote:In a related note the leader of INC in LS, taunts that Pandavs were few, but they defeated Kauravas.

To which i responded that the good news is that the Mahabharata is quoted by the INC and not some Euro trash.

44 (LS)+67 (RS)= 111. 100 Kauravas, 1 Gandari, 1 Dritarastra, 1 Vidhur, 1 Shakuni, 1 Karna, 1 Bhisma, 1 Dronacharya, 1 Ashwathama, 1 Kripacharya, 1 Kritavarma, 1 Jayadratha = Complete Kuru Sabha (ConEgress).

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 11 Jun 2014 14:03

^ Good calculation kmkraoind ji.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 11 Jun 2014 23:58

kmkraoind wrote:
Pratyush wrote:In a related note the leader of INC in LS, taunts that Pandavs were few, but they defeated Kauravas. To which i responded that the good news is that the Mahabharata is quoted by the INC and not some Euro trash
44 (LS)+67 (RS)= 111. 100 Kauravas, 1 Gandari, 1 Dritarastra, 1 Vidhur, 1 Shakuni, 1 Karna, 1 Bhisma, 1 Dronacharya, 1 Ashwathama, 1 Kripacharya, 1 Kritavarma, 1 Jayadratha = Complete Kuru Sabha (ConEgress).

Wow, Congress was called Kauravs here "phirst". But Ghor Kaalayug, Kauravas are quoting Pandavs to justify their living in Hasthinapur.

johneeG · Post by **johneeG** » 12 Jun 2014 06:58

kmkraoind wrote:
Pratyush wrote:In a related note the leader of INC in LS, taunts that Pandavs were few, but they defeated Kauravas.

To which i responded that the good news is that the Mahabharata is quoted by the INC and not some Euro trash.
44 (LS)+67 (RS)= 111. 100 Kauravas, 1 Gandari, 1 Dritarastra, 1 Vidhur, 1 Shakuni, 1 Karna, 1 Bhisma, 1 Dronacharya, 1 Ashwathama, 1 Kripacharya, 1 Kritavarma, 1 Jayadratha = Complete Kuru Sabha (ConEgress).

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 13 Jun 2014 04:56

X-post from Link Language thread in GDF:

IIT-M students working with Prof. Srini came up with this cheesy but fun video

Bharati The Unified Indian Script!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L_lkyPGrHA

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 14 Jun 2014 00:23

Law is meant to keep ethics and sanity in, in any society. So the law must harmonize with the cultural modes of that society in order to be effective. This is not the case in India. As part of judicial reform, the constitution and law must be re-codified in the Prakrits, using Sanskrit-based terminology. Even if English remains the language of the senior courts for some time to come, that Indian English must used embedded Indic terms to describe the law and analyze circumstantial evidence and precedents - especially precedents from other cultures.

As part of education reform, language policy should dictate that any discipline after high school that is related to the fields of sociology, law, political science, history, etc. must have a Prakrit language requirement as well Sanskrit requirement compulsorily. [Technical and science disciplines can be differently.]

India as a dharma society and the rule of law

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 14 Jun 2014 05:00

I have a simpler proposition. Instead of English medium schools and Indic medicum schools, let us have uni-medium till 10th or 10+2, where students will be taught English, Maths, Physics, Chemistry, Life Science and Computer Science in English and History, Geography, Civics and Language II in their Mother tongue. Sanskrit / Hindi will be the third language for non Hindi speaking people. Hindi speaking people will have their nearest language (Marathi, Gujarati, Punjabi, Bengali, Telugu) as their third language.

Without addressing elementary and high school education, Indic languages cannot be saved. Given that all major Indian languages borrow heavily from or evolved out of Sanskrit and are in wide common use, it is practical to firs think of protecting them and making some of the subjects available throughout in the local languages.

In South India, majority of population sends their kids to English medium schools where all subjects are taught in English. The number of youngsters who can read/write Tamil / Telugu / Kannada / Malayalam among age group under 12 is very low. These languages might go extinct in 50 years if proper steps are not taken.

KrishnaK · Post by **KrishnaK** » 14 Jun 2014 10:44

Agnimitra wrote:Law is meant to keep ethics and sanity in, in any society. So the law must harmonize with the cultural modes of that society in order to be effective. This is not the case in India. As part of judicial reform, the constitution and law must be re-codified in the Prakrits, using Sanskrit-based terminology. Even if English remains the language of the senior courts for some time to come, that Indian English must used embedded Indic terms to describe the law and analyze circumstantial evidence and precedents - especially precedents from other cultures.

As part of education reform, language policy should dictate that any discipline after high school that is related to the fields of sociology, law, political science, history, etc. must have a Prakrit language requirement as well Sanskrit requirement compulsorily. [Technical and science disciplines can be differently.]

India as a dharma society and the rule of law

There is no law against sleeping with your best friend’s girlfriend and against causing the grievous hurt of betrayal. Fred could have killed himself and that would still not implicate John. But there is a law against Fred getting angry and stabbing John. I defended Fred but was overruled. Fred was fired.

What is legal and what is moral is different. In American society, the two are often conflated.

Clearly the kind of person who's qualified to expound on law and morality.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 14 Jun 2014 12:13

schinnas wrote:I have a simpler proposition. Instead of English medium schools and Indic medicum schools, let us have uni-medium till 10th or 10+2, where students will be taught English, Maths, Physics, Chemistry, Life Science and Computer Science in English and History, Geography, Civics and Language II in their Mother tongue. Sanskrit / Hindi will be the third language for non Hindi speaking people. Hindi speaking people will have their nearest language (Marathi, Gujarati, Punjabi, Bengali, Telugu) as their third language.

Without addressing elementary and high school education, Indic languages cannot be saved. Given that all major Indian languages borrow heavily from or evolved out of Sanskrit and are in wide common use, it is practical to firs think of protecting them and making some of the subjects available throughout in the local languages.

schinnas ji, I fully agree that Prakritization of primary and secondary school education is important, along with higher and professional education. Sanskrit can serve as a medium for standardization, inter-operability and cross-fertilization across all Prakrits.

All subjects - science and humanities - must be available in Prakrits. Basic functional Sanskrit can be delivered in schools. For technical streams of higher education, advanced Sanskrit is not required. For subjects in higher education relating to social sciences, politics, law, history, etc., Sanskrit proficiency must be a pre-requisite.

schinnas wrote:These languages might go extinct in 50 years if proper steps are not taken.

More than language preservation, what is worrying is that an entire generation of Indian students is being stultified, just because they are at a disadvantage learning English. So they end up with poor language abilities, unable to have a comand over the English language, and unable to express higher ideas in their native tongues.

There is a purely HRD argument for Prakritization, and an urgent need for it.

At the same time, encourage functional English proficiency as a second language in all Prakrit schools. There is data indicating that students from non-anglicized backgrounds who learn English as a second language in their native-medium schools actually have a better hands-on grasp of English than do their social peers who spend a lot more to go to an English-medium school! When Indian children are thrown into an English-medium learning environment, and not a word of English is spoken in their homes or friends' circle, it predictably has a stultifying effect on their intellectual confidence and originality.
--------------

KrishnaK wrote:
There is no law against sleeping with your best friend’s girlfriend and against causing the grievous hurt of betrayal. Fred could have killed himself and that would still not implicate John. But there is a law against Fred getting angry and stabbing John. I defended Fred but was overruled. Fred was fired.

What is legal and what is moral is different. In American society, the two are often conflated.
Clearly the kind of person who's qualified to expound on law and morality.

What's your point exactly?

The author is not "expounding" on anything. He is sharing an opinion about the human side of law and morality, and has freely talked about his own youthful passion, foolishness and inexperience.

The question is: how does the law square with the human element - human bonding, family and community? There is a definite difference between "ethics" and "morality", and its the difference between sanity and insanity in the formulation and application of the law.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 14 Jun 2014 23:12

Agnimitra-ji,
I concur with your vision. However differ highly in terms of execution. Overwhelming majority of parents (including those who are illiterate in even Indic languages) are fascinated with 100% English medium education, especially in South India. The attempt by state governments to make the language of the state (Kannada, Tamil, Telugu) a mandatory second or third language is highly resisted by several parents (especially elites) who are OK with their children learning everything in English and choosing French as the second language! They even went to the court in both KN and TN and got rulings in their favor.

In TN, state government is converting most government schools to English medium schools and 99.9% of private schools teach everything in English with students fined if they speak in any language other than English. Any major change in these areas can only be done gradually over a period of several decades. Keeping your vision (or something close to that) as the end goal, we need to explore what is the next possible step one could take.

Parents want their children to learn Maths and Science in English to be competitive and get jobs in IT / abroad, etc. They are OK with their children learning history, geography, civics and other social sciences in Indic languages. However, there is no such option currently. We either have schools that teach everything in English or everything in Indian languages. What we need to do is convert the 100% English medium schools to teach non math and science subjects in Indian languages while retaining existing Indian medium schools as they are as the first step. This itself will take 5 to 10 years to accomplish in the best case as there are issues in hiring and training teachers, getting consensus, etc. As a second step, we can look at introducing Sanskrit as an optional (or mandatory) third language for everyone across India, which again will take 10+ years to be introduced across India.

Other administrative work such as improving quality and infrastructure of Indian medium schools, finding the graduates of those schools and colleges better employment can be taken up by the government in the meanwhile with immediate effect.

On the other hand, if a grand vision is sought to be introduced in totality at the very beginning itself, the whole movement will be ridiculed by main stream media and parents will be up in arms. No government will be able to introduce anything in this area. Just my humble opinion.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 15 Jun 2014 01:11

There is really no simple way to say this. The greatness of Bharat coincided with the reach of Sanskrit. A common script to unify all languages is essential and Devnagri would well qualify to be this common script. To the extent that even English can be written in the Devnagri script.

On the language front, I have made the claim, If we cannot have A common Indian language in the country, we cannot become a great power. Serious steps would have to be taken to have this common language aligned with Arthic prospects. Hindi would well qualify to be this common national language but even there time is limited. The fact is English is devouring Indian languages, our thought process, on what we think of ourselves, our values and even to the extent that our national vision is based on what the English set for us. There is no space for Indian languages in the plural at the national or arthic levels. It has to be A Indian language.

We will have to act fast and those in the minority who would feel disadvantaged for a generation or two should be adequately accommodated through a limited time language disadvantaged type affirmative actions. I have never understood this penchant for some in the south to oppose Hindi but adopt English. This is a national integration issue and the interests of the union would have to take precedence.

Adopt Hindi and Devnagri and Sanskrit would be saved. The project to Sanskritize will also get a shot in the arm.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 15 Jun 2014 01:47

schinnas ji,
The aam abdul is scrambling for English-medium education because they are presented with de facto language apartheid in Indian society - all higher education is availabl only in English, there is a glass ceiling in the job market between the English-proficient and "vernaculars", there is a glass ceiling in the civil services and defence forces between the officer cadres and the lower rungs, and generally speaking English-medium is the only way out of poverty!

The basis of rejuvenating Indian languages is this:
1. Economics and jobs! - Enforce 'localization' (Prakritization) policies in all markets
2. Education - Make Prakrit language higher and professional education available in all streams - even if technical terms use English terms for a few years.
3. Rejuvenation of Sanskrit as the link language - this is the keystone of the Indic diversity platform.

Note:
1. The main drive for Prakritization (and Sanskritization) is economic onlee! It is related to harnessing India's human resources. Rates of computer literacy in China are far higher (over 40%?) than India (around 10%?). This is because, in India, to be computer literate you first have to b English-literate. But in China you don't. In fact, they even do software development in Chinese language. All major technology corporates such as Microsoft have declared a multilingual development agenda - in addition to just multilingual user interfaces for products. Because the best and the brightest talent comes from non-English speaking countries. In China, one English-speaking liaison on an offshore team does business with an American client and employs 10 non-English speaking tiger techies in her offshore team at home! We don't have this model in India.

2. The second reason is educational efficacy! The fact is that the vast masses of India's youth today speak only "butler English" after graduating from "Endligh-medium" schools, and they can't speak their mother-tongues well either! It is very unfair for them to compete with those Indians who have some degree of Anglicization in their family background for a generation or two. Sanskrit is a logical language - it can be learned by anyone. But English follows few rules, and the quality of one's English directly depends on one's socialization and immersion in Anglo-saxon culture. This puts the vast majority of Indians at a great disadvantage.

3. The global reality is multilingual.
(a) Fact is that 92% of the world does not speak English as a native OR secondary language!
(b) Moreover, all corporates already have "internationalization" and "localization" as part of their best practices in a multilingual global marketplace. This helps them have greater access within markets!
(c) Digital technology today facilitates multilingualism better than any time in human history!

4. Several of the fastest developing countries have naturalized education and the local economy in their own languages. The world's top 20 economies all have education in their mother tongues. The world's bottom 20 economies all (without exception) have higher education available only in a foreign colonial language different from their mother-tongues.

5. Most of the world's best MBA and Engineering colleges are in non-English medium. That includes Asian languages. the CEO's of Samsung, etc all did their MBA in Korean medium, not English medium! One of the best engineering universities in the world is Tecnion (Israel), which teaches only in Hebrew - a language that was dead for 2000 years! There is a clear and simple way to make any language relevant, and all it requires is political will.

6. In India also, localization is happening whether the Kala Angrez like it or not. for example, in a medical hub like Hyderabad, the nursing staff speak mostly Telugu, so to be an effective doctor there, you must have some Telugu-proficiency. this is apart from having to deal with patients. It is absolutely crazy to insulate oneself from the reality and hope that Anglicization will "trickle down" over a few generations!

W started of on the wrong foot - making Hindi national language was setting up a language-diversity policy for failure. Sanskrit is the only platform for linguistic diversity in India. But when Hindi was installed, it automatically created factionalism, and then English-raj was extended after the 15-year phaseing-out period stipulated by the Constitution. Interestingly, the Act that indefinitely extended and established English-usage as the language of law and government (even at the cost of Hindi) was passed by Mrs. Gandhi during the emergency!

Sanskrit has to be reinstated along with a common script across India - either Devanagari++, some older Indian script, or a new innovation with technological advantages.

If anyone in the "mainstream media" ridicules a comprehensive proposal, then show them the facts:
1. Malaysia went through judicial reform and re-wrote the law in Bahasa Malaysia. Why can't we? Already Hindi and now Tamil are allowed in the higher appellate courts.
2. We are not talking about phasing out English - but rather to bring the Prakrits up to speed. English will be introduced as a second-language in all Prakrit-medium schools.
3. The cost overhead of "localization" for businesses is minimal, as technology to do it at the click of a button already exists.

Etc., etc. Don't worry - we only need to show a comprehensive policy and governmental will. Rest will follow.

Instead of that, the Congress regime was hastening things in the opposite direction. Last year, they even made an announcement that henceforth UPSC exams would be held only in English! There was a huge public outcry from thousands of aspirants, and then they had to backtrack! Why don't you notice such trends in Indian society and only focus on people rushing to English-medium schools? the fact is that even in the IIT-JEE exams, non-English language medium test-takers have a higher admission rate than English-medium test-takers.

the fact is that the average abdul in India would gladly study in their native language - IF they saw economic opportunities. But with the Congress sarkar clearly trying to push for more Anglicization at the cost of the Prakrits, and the media clearly making Kala Angrez the new sexy an sophisticated, it is no wonder that people want a better future for their children. A change of government persona and policy will turn things around real quick.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 15 Jun 2014 12:57

Agnimitra-ji,
I will be happy beyond measure if what you propose happens. You are correct that at Independence we should have retained Sanskrit as the link language. Sri Aurobindo advised the same but INC and Nehru thought wrong. Agree on incentivising appropriately. However, the deep rooted admiration we have for gora things extends to English as well.

The UPSC exam and IIT-JEE in non-English language are predominantly Hindi. In the hindi belt, penetration of English is lot less compared to south and north east. It is not just political will alone which can make it happen. Our population as a whole should clamor for it and seek it and be willing to do the hard work to make it happen. Jews had an existential crisis and turned strongly to their roots. We are yet to have that levels of dedication to restore our roots.

Even the amount of participation in BRF for this topic is indicative of public interest or lack of it. Will be interesting to see what HRD ministry announces.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 16 Jun 2014 02:25

schinnas wrote:The UPSC exam and IIT-JEE in non-English language are predominantly Hindi. In the hindi belt, penetration of English is lot less compared to south and north east.

I have data for Marathi and Telugu also for UPSC and other such exams. Its not just a Hindi thing. Passion for one's language can be found in Tamil Nadu and Bengal, too. Tamil was the only Prakrit other than Hindi to demand its use in the senior courts. But Tamil Prakritization has been hampered because it has been monopolized by nutcases obsessed with "purifying" Tamil of Sanskrit words - at 42% of the vocabulary (including the word for "yes"), that's a tough ask! W. Bengal performed a grand experiment in Bengali-only education - which fell flat on its face because there was no comprehensive policy co-ordinated with the Center to ensure jobs and higher education for that whole generation, nor was there a policy to make the Englsh-medium Bengalis stakeholders in the Prakritization process. There are lessons to be learned in half-baked Prakritization attempts in every part of India.

schinnas wrote:It is not just political will alone which can make it happen. Our population as a whole should clamor for it and seek it and be willing to do the hard work to make it happen. Jews had an existential crisis and turned strongly to their roots. We are yet to have that levels of dedication to restore our roots.

Existential crisis is coming up, if we don't act. Not difficult to convince people of that.
But apart from Jewish-type existential drama, if we can come up with a futuristic plan, a constructive and creative plan (rather than preservation-ist plan), then it would be best. For example, if we can come up with a common script that has some definite advantages w.r.t. current technologies - advantages over even roman script, not just existing Indic scripts - then that would fire up peoples' imagination and make it a great game of sorts. Any movement of cutural nationalism should aim to make a positive contribution to humanity in order to be sustainable in the long run.

schinnas wrote:Will be interesting to see what HRD ministry announces.

So far the HRD ministry's declarations on language policy front have been disappointing. They came up with this "e-bhasha" initiative - which is to translate the classics into all the Prakrits. This is like museum-building! Utter preservationism. Rather I would like to see them enable the Prakrits in the technology and higher education space and empower the Prakrits in the job market and in purely economic play.

GopiD · Post by **GopiD** » 16 Jun 2014 07:06

Vanakkam Bharatvaasis,

I have been a lurking Bharat Rakshak for a long time (may be 9-10 years). I have been following almost all of the topics in the military and Strat forums and some of the threads in the GDF. You Bharat Rakshaks have played a major role in shaping my idea of who I am and who my people are.

It is my understanding that Hinduism and Bharatyata is on the decline and has been declining for a very long time and I have had many sleepless nights thinking about it. There are a lot of threads on BR which discuss about the problems and issues with us and how the EJ’s and other foreign forces are trying to subvert and control us through our inherent faultlines. I guess I have got a better understanding of what is really happening to us and it has taken a long time for things to make sense.

But, what I am most concerned about is about our tomorrow. I am trying to see the way forward and acting today (in whatever small way possible) for a safer tomorrow for us. Yes, I have been following the active participation of our rakshaks in the Modi Sarkar campaign and I am truly happy that after 1200 years of slavery, we have a true bharatvaasi on the highest throne of Bharat. This augurs well for us and I am absolutely positive that after 5 years of Modi Sarkar, we will be better placed to project power of Bharat in every sphere of life globally. But, what I want to discuss about is the vision that we have for ourselves for a better future and if we have one, have we taken into account the ground realities of today’s bharat and its intricate complexities and are we flexible enough to evolve? coz, if things don’t evolve, then it is destined to be extinct and it is exactly in this field Christianity is ahead of us. I would guess that Christianity poses the greatest ideological threat to us with its well-planned strategy of digesting the native culture and traditions and owning it as its own, thereby owning the people they follow the culture and traditions.

It is my personal belief that we didn’t let or we were not to let to evolve our culture and traditions and our religion in line with modern times and exactly for that reason others are doing it instead of us for our people, thereby undermining us and furthering their goals.

Some of the ground realities that I think to be important are,

1. Halting their strategy of boxing us into a corner of Asia and widening our borders.
2. 10% Christians and 13% Muslims.
3. Pseudoseculars.
4. A media with foreign allegiance and newstraders.
5. Defeatist history and minority appeasement taught to children.
6. How can we design a society devoid of our faultlines like caste and yet be based on Hinduism.
7. The absence of a unifying body for Hinduism and all Hindus, unlike Vatican and the Islamic world.

Therefore, I propose a thread to exclusively discuss the above aspects named “Renaissance of Hinduism/Bharathyata – the Way Forward” and discussions can be more solution oriented taking into consideration the issues involved.

I am open to any suggestion of additional points from the gurus. (I am aware that the gurus would be able to find a lot of nitpicks in my post and I would be happy to be corrected wherever I am wrong).

Thanks all,

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 16 Jun 2014 13:08

Agnimitra wrote: But apart from Jewish-type existential drama, if we can come up with a futuristic plan, a constructive and creative plan (rather than preservation-ist plan), then it would be best. For example, if we can come up with a common script that has some definite advantages w.r.t. current technologies - advantages over even roman script, not just existing Indic scripts - then that would fire up peoples' imagination and make it a great game of sorts. Any movement of cutural nationalism should aim to make a positive contribution to humanity in order to be sustainable in the long run.

Couldn't agree more. A simplified common script for all Indian languages (including Urdu) will go a LONG way. As much as possible, if we can retain a simplified Devanagiri script for several characters, it will help in adoption and transition. States using languages that use different script would need to be sufficiently incentivised for embracing the transition.

That said, you are fully correct on the Tamil puritans who want to cleanse Tamil of Sanskrit origin words. The earliest available Tamil grammer book Tholkappiyam has clear rules for borrowing Sanskrit words. Those fellows have done irreparable damage to Tamils by alienating TN population from Sanskrit and making an impression that Sanskrit is a brahminical language. Far from the truth. Every profession in TN such as sculptors, masons, siddha vaidyas, etc., had their literature in both Tamil and Sanskrit.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 16 Jun 2014 13:31

A common script for Urdu and Hindi will go a long way in bringing muslims to mainstream. The negative impact of Urdu in alienating Indian muslims is not widely discussed. Muslim's unnecessary fascination for Urdu (TN muslims have started saying Urdu is their mother tongue. Several Andra / Kerala muslims as well). This makes Indian muslims perceive themselves differrently from their co-citizens, even if the muslims are not religious and encourages ghettoism.

Poor educational and economic development of muslims is due to their patronage of Urdu on religious lines. Urdu is a beautiful sweet language which would have flourished if muslims didnt make it as a religious symbol. If Urdu adopts a simplified Indic script, its popularity and usage will only grow. An unemotional media debate on these topics is much required.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 18 Jun 2014 07:06

Ellen Barry in the New York Times:

Narendra Modi’s Election Sparks Hope for Sanskrit

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 18 Jun 2014 09:00

Interesting piece of info from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urdu#Devanagari_script

More recently in India, Urdu speakers have adopted Devanagari for publishing Urdu periodicals and have innovated new strategies to mark Urdū in Devanagari as distinct from Hindi in Devanagari. Such publishers have introduced new orthographic features into Devanagari for the purpose of representing the Perso-Arabic etymology of Urdu words. One example is the use of अ (Devanagari a) with vowel signs to mimic contexts of ع (‘ain), in violation of Hindi orthographic rules. For Urdu publishers, the use of Devanagari gives them a greater audience, whereas the orthographic changes help them preserve a distinct identity of Urdu.

10% of Indian population using a Persian / Arabic script keeps them alienated giving rise to all sorts of fundamentalism related issues and keeps muslims economically poor and untouched by modernity and science. Hope Modi-ji's sarkar does all it can to encourage the use of Devanagari script for Urdu.

Vamsee · Post by **Vamsee** » 18 Jun 2014 22:39

Not sure if these 2 articles are posted on BRF.
Part 1
Election 2014: Modi versus Macaulay's ghost
Part 2
Why Indian nationalism must win over Macaulayan ideas

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 19 Jun 2014 03:37

Over 103 million Indians still don't have access to safe drinking water. Great majority of diseases are water-borne. According to a 2013 UN report, about 1 lakh Indians die every year from water-borne diseases. Here's an affordable, energy-efficient technoloogy solution -

Pure Genius: How Dean Kamen's Invention Could Bring Clean Water To Millions

How about one in every village school, literally alongside shauchalaya?

Interesting that this invention grew legs when the inventor partnered with Coke to deliver it - Coke has one of the most sophisticated distribution networks worldwide. I'm sure several private sector companies in India would jump in and bear the cost of taking this Safe Water Dispenser to every village in India, bundled with their own products. Classic "bottom-of-the-pyramid" strategy for developing markets, as pointed out by the article.

Also goes with the green energy, green architecture, etc. eco-friendly policy that Dharmic India must adopt across the board.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 19 Jun 2014 06:24

I think 103 million is an underestimate.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 19 Jun 2014 08:49

matrimc wrote:I think 103 million is an underestimate.

You may be right.
http://www.unicef.org/india/wes.html

Water

• 88 per cent of the population of 1.2 billion has access to drinking water from improved sources in 2008, as compared to 68 per cent in 1990.
• Only a quarter the total population in India has drinking water on their premise.
• Women, who have to collect the drinking water, are vulnerable to a number of unsafe practices. Only 13 per cent of adult males collect water.
• Sixty seven per cent of Indian households do not treat their drinking water, even though it could be chemically or bacterially contaminated.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 19 Jun 2014 12:35

Soon the Secularists are going to launch a media initiative to present all changes by present govt. in history as taught in schools as "Saffronization".

Hindutvavadis should call it by its real name: "DeMacaulayization"!

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 20 Jun 2014 01:12

RajeshA wrote:Soon the Secularists are going to launch a media initiative to present all changes by present govt. in history as taught in schools as "Saffronization".

Hindutvavadis should call it by its real name: "DeMacaulayization"!

From what we've seen so far, the moves appear to be exactly in line with Macaulayization (as a predicted reactionary process within it), not de-Macaulayization. E.g., the e-bhasha initiative wants to memorialize the literature of Indian languages - not provide higher education in them or make them viable in the job market. This is exactly how Macaulay envisioned the future fate of non-English languages in the infamous "Macaulay Minute" [Columbia University website: Minute by the Hon'ble T. B. Macaulay, dated the 2nd February 1835.] English was to be the language of science and the modern humanities, of high economic value, while "native" languages were to be merely for ethnic cultural and history-study purposes. Making changes to history textbooks is again a backward looking step - IF it is not accompanied by other measures relevant to the day-to-day practical lives of Indians in a factually multilingual world.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 20 Jun 2014 01:38

Agnimitra wrote: From what we've seen so far, the moves appear to be exactly in line with Macaulayization (as a predicted reactionary process within it), not de-Macaulayization. E.g., the e-bhasha initiative wants to memorialize the literature of Indian languages - not provide higher education in them or make them viable in the job market. This is exactly how Macaulay envisioned the future fate of non-English languages in the infamous "Macaulay Minute" [Columbia University website: Minute by the Hon'ble T. B. Macaulay, dated the 2nd February 1835.] English was to be the language of science and the modern humanities, of high economic value, while "native" languages were to be merely for ethnic cultural and history-study purposes. Making changes to history textbooks is again a backward looking step - IF it is not accompanied by other measures relevant to the day-to-day practical lives of Indians in a factually multilingual world.

This is what I have been saying that there is very little public support (even amongst BJP supporting parents) for Indianising education. The awareness level of impact of medium of education is very low across the board. People are more concerned about how India's past is represented in existing English medium education rather than enabling Education to happen in Indian languages and letting Indian languages flourish, which will helkp rejuvenate our arts, culture and scientific advancements. Contrary to what many English educated people believe, we will not really shine by learning on borrowed language and culture. The fundamental problem statement is wrong. People have reduced this to a fight of what is in the syllabus rather than in which language the syllabus is taught. Government needs to announce a policy paper on how we will bring education back in Indian languages and improve the quality levels of Indic education and job opportunities for those that graduate.

How our past history is represented in text books is important but it can only be secondary to the main issue.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 20 Jun 2014 01:55

schinnas wrote:The fundamental problem statement is wrong. People have reduced this to a fight of what is in the syllabus rather than in which language the syllabus is taught. Government needs to announce a policy paper on how we will bring education back in Indian languages and improve the quality levels of Indic education and job opportunities for those that graduate.

How our past history is represented in text books is important but it can only be secondary to the main issue.

Very well put schinnas ji. Please see a slide-presentation of a policy proposal here (still in initial stages):

http://www.bhashaneeti.org/

Hindi translation currently underway. If anyone would like to translate into other Indian languages, please write me at agnimitra dot brf at gmail.

Concise book with case studies, etc is also on its way.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 20 Jun 2014 02:45

Agnimitra-ji,
I might very well know one of the authors of the presentation - Sankrant Sanu. More on that in my email to you.

I can help translate to Tamil, but I am already too down with other translation commitments to which I have not yet done justice. Will try to get other people who share the vision and can translate to Tamil. I would expect that Sri Aurobindo Ashram has some yogis and scholars who have studied the problem at depth. Might be worth reaching out to Aurobindo society. Sri Aurobindo was very clear that Sanskrit is best suited as a link language for India and every Indian should need a minimum working knowledge of Sanskrit in addition to strong fluency in their mother tongue and English. the problem of appropriate language for education has been studied by some of his disciples. I remember reading some well thought out articles by them, but not able to recollect the name of the publication.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 20 Jun 2014 03:38

Gus: See my reply right after yours. Our local cops were not willing to even take a complaint.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 22 Jun 2014 18:46

Agnimitra wrote:
RajeshA wrote:Soon the Secularists are going to launch a media initiative to present all changes by present govt. in history as taught in schools as "Saffronization".

Hindutvavadis should call it by its real name: "DeMacaulayization"!
From what we've seen so far, the moves appear to be exactly in line with Macaulayization (as a predicted reactionary process within it), not de-Macaulayization. E.g., the e-bhasha initiative wants to memorialize the literature of Indian languages - not provide higher education in them or make them viable in the job market. This is exactly how Macaulay envisioned the future fate of non-English languages in the infamous "Macaulay Minute" [Columbia University website: Minute by the Hon'ble T. B. Macaulay, dated the 2nd February 1835.] English was to be the language of science and the modern humanities, of high economic value, while "native" languages were to be merely for ethnic cultural and history-study purposes. Making changes to history textbooks is again a backward looking step - IF it is not accompanied by other measures relevant to the day-to-day practical lives of Indians in a factually multilingual world.

Agnimitra ji,

I think we need to be thinking of a transitional process from an Anglophone dependency for processing (modern) knowledge in India towards a dual-course parallel existence of the two, at least for the mid-term. Even as we continue to offer sciences and technology subjects in English, we should also start to offer Sanskrit and History and Basics of Sciences and Mathematics in Sanskrit, taught in the old ways, and make them mandatory subjects to both have and pass at least till 10th class.

Just as bilingual children process language differently, Indians who study sciences and mathematics not only in two different languages but according to two almost completely different systems they too would be viewing sciences and mathematics differently than rest of humankind.

The equilibrium between the two systems can then shift in the future.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 22 Jun 2014 20:26

Recently there were some tweets from a friend claiming that Dharma supports more individual rights while backward systems support Group rights and as such a Dharmic order should advocate more individual rights.

I disagree with this understanding.

harbans ji,

Support for rights of the individual in the West actually has a subversive context. The more individual rights that the Western state supports, the more control it gets over the individual. Basically the Western state tries to fragment society into a multitude of individuals, so that it becomes the only authority to arbitrate any grievances and thus becomes infallible. The Western State even intervenes to decide family matters and how much money a father needs to give to his progeny, etc. All authority vests in the State.

Secondly in the West, the vested interests, the rich, big business, have developed an extremely sophisticated system of controlling the "free will" of the citizen to decide their leaders.

Thirdly through the digital revolution, under the pretext of offering better service, various IT companies, and through them the State, virtually becomes omniscient about all the "freedom" that the citizen is indulging in.

So all the talk about freedom and rights are pseudonyms for surveillance and absolute power.

Dharma talks about responsibility to family and society. Dharma does not talk about rights of the individual. Dharma talks about empowerment of the individual.

Empowerment of the individual comes from knowledge and skills. That is why even Bharatiya Pradhan Mantri during his campaign talked about Bharat being the Jagatguru and he talked about Skill Development, and he chastised the previous government for only providing "Acts" and not "Action" - "Right to Food" does not translate to "Food", to "Availability of Affordable Food".

Dharma wants to empower the individual because if the quality of the individual increases, it increases the level of his capacity to positively contribute to society.

Dharma does not go out to fragment society but to strengthen the cohesion of society, at every level - family, extended family, village, jati, desh.

Those who advocate rights of the individual, try to make the individual rebel against his immediate society, so that they can intervene and play arbitrator!

Islam, for example, tries to control the individual by dumbing him down to a level of a drone, a programmable unit and demands absolute servility and submission of the individual. The individual is not allowed to become empowered and to show society a way forwards, for the way may run contrary to the will of the Islamic system, and he may escape control.

Western system on the other hand has gone ahead with empowering the individual but in parallel has developed a sophisticated system of illusion of freedom; overload of entertainment, sexual opportunity and distraction; social fragmentation; ideological filters, glass-ceilings, cooptive mechanisms, academic brainwashing, laws, etc. for any rise of the individual through the system. The empowered individual can then either serve the system better through skills, innovation, business acumen, etc. or can participate in Western control over the rest of the world, through various institutions and corporate presence.

However the empowered individual becomes an isolated unit in a true sense with minimal familial and tribal consciousness, and thus rendered harmless to the system. What goes for society and socializing in West, is basically an alternative form of entertainment between individuals with a very individualized sense of self-interests and loyalties. Even that is moving over to a digital platform and thus more open to surveillance. Any anti-state political movements are almost always penetrated and except for shows of sound and fury basically harmless. As long as the people don't go hungry, the system is meant to be infallible.

The difference between the Western and the Dharmic system is I feel in the worldview of the individual, between one who feels responsible only for himself, one for whom the opportunities provided by laws of the land for personal proliferation are paramount on the one hand and one who feels responsible for his family, his extended family, his community; for whom his sense of Dharma and the ensuing need for self-discipline is supreme.

The Western system could survive through economic domination over rest of world, over-abundance of opportunity, and providing its unemployed with state-subsidized subsistence! The Islamic system could survive through high loot and by focusing on the external "opportunities". Marxism could survive by keeping everybody at the same level of financial depravity, but just above subsistence level.

Dharma however lives on by maximizing a man's potential but also finding a balance between man's ego and man's duties.

For us, a system based solely on individual rights is not the way forward. Rights alone do not empower an individual nor does they enhance stability and peace in society. Nor do we need to fear group rights.

Just a ramble!

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 23 Jun 2014 03:17

RajeshA wrote:I think we need to be thinking of a transitional process from an Anglophone dependency for processing (modern) knowledge in India towards a dual-course parallel existence of the two, at least for the mid-term. Even as we continue to offer sciences and technology subjects in English, we should also start to offer Sanskrit and History and Basics of Sciences and Mathematics in Sanskrit, taught in the old ways, and make them mandatory subjects to both have and pass at least till 10th class.

Just as bilingual children process language differently, Indians who study sciences and mathematics not only in two different languages but according to two almost completely different systems they too would be viewing sciences and mathematics differently than rest of humankind.

The equilibrium between the two systems can then shift in the future.

I think a parallel track, gradualist induction of Indian language is quite reasonable. But what exactly is the gradient - and why?

As a first draft proposal it is suggested that:
1. Parallel classes in higher education happen in Prakrits along with English - on the same campuses, so that students can intermingle and develop camaraderie.
2. Even Prakrit-medium courses can continue to use borrowed Latin/English technical terminology in the sciences.
3. All humanities related to law, sociology, history, political science, etc must be taught primarily in Prakrit from school level onward. In higher education streams related to these subjects, high-level Sanskrit proficiency must be a requirement.
4. As regards technical terminology: As and when Sanskrit terminology is available, that can be included - Prakrit textbooks would use Sanskrit terms with English equivalents in parentheses, and English-medium textbooks would have the Sanskrit equivalent in parentheses, etc. But this is further down the line.

Could you help me understand why we must go so slow as to first reserve Prakrit-medium education for some ancient subjects or tricks only? Given the urgency of the need for the spread of modern technical education, why not immediately make them available in Prakrit-medium colleges? Why impose a language barrier? "Blood flows from the aorta to the vena cava" = "लहू आओर्ता से वीना-कावा बहता है ", etc. What's the problem in doing that?

Case study of Hebrew in Israel is instructive. Or China. Or Iran. Or South Korea. Or Arabic countries. Or the European Union with its 24 languages. Etc.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 26 Jun 2014 12:08

X-post from GDF thread on Link Language:

Rediff:
India's English obsession must end

dinesh_kimar · Post by **dinesh_kimar** » 26 Jun 2014 13:02

^ English is important because the World speaks in English. Even daily wage laborers are trying to put their kids in "English medium."

Only countries like China, Germany and Japan, which have historically diverse population needed one link language for things to happen. Here, English is already available and most popular around the world, all new information and research comes in English language, so why change things?

Instead, we need a national vision, on the lines of Kalam's 2020, which will energise every school kid and BRF forum member. Let us take points from Japan or Singapore, and develop the same way as them.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 26 Jun 2014 13:48

^^^Wow, what a collection of myths!

dinesh_kumar wrote:^ English is important because the World speaks in English.

Wrong. 91.5% of the world's population does not speak English as a native OR a second language.

The above piechart is from Microsoft's documentation that provides not just multilingual user interfaces for all software products now, but also encourages multilingual software development environments. Because it has already been happening for some time now, and they want to tap the best and brightest talent.

dinesh_kumar wrote:Even daily wage laborers are trying to put their kids in "English medium."

Yep, even daily wage labourers in India spend upto a third of their income to send one child to an English-medium school - where usually even the English teacher can't speak half-decent english. But they do this because they are faced with an English Class System in Indian society - where there is a glass ceiling beyond which one cannot go if one speaks bad or no English - whether it is getting a college education or most other things.

Moreover, surveys show that such children from families where no English is spoken at home end up with stultified minds when they are thrown into an English-medium school environment. They end up speaking an ugly or cartoonish hodgepodge of rote-learned English phrases and their mother tongue. OTOH, children from those backgrounds who go to a native language-medium school and learn English as a second language not only score better on IQ tests, but their command of functional English is better than their friends who go to English-medium schools! [E.g.: "English or Hinglish: Which will India choose?"]

This class of schoolchildren comprises almost 90% of India's population - a section where no family members or friends' circle speaks English - unlike the privileged 10% like you and I where at least one generation before us has some English education.

No one here is suggesting that we stop teaching English - but make it a second language rather than the primary medium of education.

dinesh_kumar wrote:Only countries like China, Germany and Japan, which have historically diverse population needed one link language for things to happen.

Eh? If you wanted to make a sensible distinction, say that these countries were not colonized like India and other African countries. Don't come up with completely ridiculous statements to dismiss the most obvious cases of native success in Asia and elsewhere. Even colonized countries like Malaysia reinstated their own Bahasa after independence. Of the above countries, only China compares with India in its diversity - greater than India in some ways. they did that by unifying communications via a universal pictographic script in 221 BC, and then by simply unifying even the spoken language post-1949 in this telecomm age. We're not asking for anything remotely as drastic as that in India. What are you talking about?

Even for a country that took measures as drastic as China, they did not switch to English medium. Even as a second language, English is available much less in China - about 0.79% of their population speaks an English at all. Yet, they have an export-oriented economy and are now poised to overtake India in the outsourcing business - because they follow a business model of one external-facing English-speaking manager managing contracts for 10 Chinese-only techies. Moreover, China not only kept one of its own languages, but they even dismissed the idea of switching from a complex pictographic script (which they simplified) to a romanized pinyin. That is called real policy - not the lazy garbage peddled by you above.

Moreover, China enjoys a much greater computer literacy than India - because there people can learn computers in Chinese, whereas in India to be computer literate you first have to be English literate.

dinesh_kumar wrote:Here, English is already available and most popular around the world, all new information and research comes in English language, so why change things?

English is "most popular" in India? It is in high demand for sure - because of the class system and glass ceiling. But its total penetration is 20% max. in India - of which only about 5-10% speak it with any degree of fluency. We're creating a coolie economy.

It is all too easy for you to sit back and be happy with the status quo - because you already have some command of English. But spend time with your fellow-Indian students from villages, who are trying hard to climb the social ladder in engineering colleges, and have the hardest time just reading through books written in stilted English, by American authors. You have to see it to understand what they have to go through. Even if we keep the scientific terminology in Latin/english, why can't the medium of instruction and the textbooks, etc be in Indian languages? What's the big deal? English can still be learned as a second language.

"All new information" doesn't come in English - a lot of it is produced in German, Japanese, etc. Translation and updating of technological literature is undertaken by the vast majority of countries in the world today - except for certain former colonies of European powers. Today, most corporates whose research produced new technology make their publications available in multiple languages in order to tap various markets. Wake up to a multilingual world.

Instead of wasting everyone's time with these ridiculous myths, why not actually read the above linked article, or at least go over the slides here: http://www.bhashaneeti.org