The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

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VikramS
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby VikramS » 06 Feb 2013 21:59

RajeshA wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:Purva Paksha of Islam and Western cultures has limited value, if our own society has stopped being a Dharmic society.


Fully agree that one should reinvigorate Dharmic customs in one's life. That is firmly putting your feet on the ground and becoming rooted.

But it is also pure rubbish that Purva Paksha of Islam and Western cultures has limited value. That is firmly putting one's head in the sand as well and becoming stupid.


I completely agree RajeshGuru.

One big reason for the general apathy towards the conditions in India is a result of the fact that many Indians do not feel pride in their history. When you do not have pride, you stop caring.

The first step in restoring pride is to question those who assault it. In India that assault has been institutionalized. And it will take a lot of time to undo the damage. The first step towards that is to educate Indians about those who are throwing stone at Dharma.

Purva Paksha is critical in taking control over our narrative.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby johneeG » 06 Feb 2013 22:52

ShauryaT wrote:There is something for "traditional" vedic paths to learn from new paths.

No. All other 'paths'(new or old) have not done anything unique/new. They have only highlighted a particular concept of SD, while rejecting all other concepts. SD is comprehensive and perfect. There is no need for SD to learn from anyone or anything on any issue. One assumes that those who are down must be doing something wrong and those who are on top must be doing something right. But, thats an assumption. Sometimes, it is just general circumstances that determine success and failure.

Atri wrote:It is time we become sanatan dharmiks by practice. To begin with, we should start performing our kulacharas and kuladevta and ishtadevata upasana and please our ancestors.

....
The gods in our home are our real care-takers. They are members of our family. One should start treating them as ones first.

And most of all, teach these kulacharas of family to kids in family. This is how dharma is propagated

+108.
A general SD/Hindu 'doctrine' that would be useful for Bharatiya 'Dharmic' living is: Doctrine of Pancha-Yagna.

Doctrine of Pancha-Yagna(5 Yagyas) contains 5 duties for a family(married couple):
1) Deva-Yagya
2) Pitri-Yagya
3) Rushi-Yagya
4) Manushya-Yagya
5) Bhuta-Yagya

Ravi_g saar has pointed out a very important point.

ravi_g wrote:1) virtually zero relevance at how one person should behave with other. In any case on this point most of the modernists will be satisfied if their life and limb are saved. It is the rest of the crowd that needs it. A kind of directive principle of personal policy would have helped.


This is a vital lacking apart from many other general flaws. The doctine of Pancha-yagya is useful to fulfill this gap.

The basic idea of pancha-yagya is following:
For any individual/family to sustain itself, it needs several others(society). So, an individual must have gratitude for this and repay the others as much as he/she can in a positive manner.

Pancha-Yagya:
1) Deva-Yagya (worship of Gods):
According to Shaastras(scriptures), every human is indebted to various Gods for the boons that he receives from them. Every human is depending on devas(gods) for his day-to-day existence. This is called Deva-runam. Deva means Gods and Runam means debt. So, Deva Runam means debt towards Gods.

Human beings depend on these various gods for day-to-day existence. A person needs timely rains, proper sun light, and heat, ...etc. A person also needs all the organs of his body to function properly. All these needs are fulfilled by the Gods.

Every person is already enjoying many of these boons given by god everyday. For example, every creature on earth is benefiting from sun. So, each person is obliged to express his gratitude to the gods for the blessings he/she has already received. This doctrine goes one step ahead of 'count your blessings'. It tells us not just to count the blessings, but to express gratitude for these blessings because one is indebted by receiving these blessings.

How to repay the Deva-runam?
Shaastras(scriptures) state that this debt can be cleared by performing Deva-Yagam.

What is a Deva-yagnam?
Deva-yagnam means worshiping the gods. One must regularly worship gods and express gratitude for the blessings that one has already received and may also ask for more.

Which Gods to worship and how?
One can worship one's favourite Gods(ishta-devata) according to one's convenience. The best method is to follow one's kulachara/sampradaya(family tradition). Of course, the general caution is that one must not do what is prohibited by the scriptures. So, one can choose one's favourite God from the figures that are accepted by the scriptures:
1) Shiva(and His various forms), 2) Vishnu(and His various forms and avataras), 3) Amba(and Her various forms and avataras), 4) Ganapati, 5) Skanda/Subramanya and 6) Surya/Aditya.

The method of worship must also be in consonance with the scriptures.

Now, the question of practicality raised by Bji:
The answer to practicality is, 'Yatha-shakti'(depending on one's capability). One can worship the Gods depending upon one's capability(not necessarily convenience, but capability). One can perform an extended/elaborate worship or a brief/simple one depending on one's capability. If one has very less capability(in terms of time or materials), then one can perform a simple worship. But, one has been cautioned not to forgo the worship completely. Perform, atleast a cursory worship instead of completely abandoning it.

Deva-Yagya(worshiping Gods) can range from most simple(ex: bhajan/stotra) to highly elaborate(ex: fire altars).

2) Pitri-Yagya(Worship of Ancestors):
Every creature is indebted to its parents for giving birth to it. One's body which is the source of all the comforts and which is also the primary tool for all the pursuits has been bestowed by one's Parents. One must be grateful to the parents for giving birth. The parents also nurture the child from the time of his birth and raise him. Therefore, one is indebted to the parents. If one thinks further, the genes in one's body are passed down from one's forefathers. One is indebted to the forefathers also. This is called Pitri-runam.

Without this mental attitude, an individual is beneath the animals. Even animals have compassion for their parents. Of course, they have several limitations. But, civilized human beings are supposed to be better than them. It is this kind of attitude that raises the man above the animals. One can use one's intellect to argue that reproduction is nothing but a simple result of sexual enjoyment and therefore, there is no need for gratitude on the part of the child. But, such an attitude would lead to debauchery.

How to repay the Pirti-runam?
By pitri-yaganam.

What is pitri-yagnam?
Pitri-yagnam means worship of ancestors.

The first and foremost step is: Matru devo bhava and Pitru Devo bhava. Take care of mother and father.

The next step is: take care of all the elders of the family.

One must take care of them, to the best of one's ability(yatha-shakti), until they are alive. Once they have departed, the next phase in Pitri-Yagya starts. The next phase of Pitri-Yagya is to perform Shraddha karma.

Finally, Pitri-runam is completely cleared only when one reproduces a heir to carry on the family name and family tradition. The family line must not end. So, one has to marry and give birth to a child. Then raise the child appropriately. In short, repeat what was done by one's parents. One must inculcate proper attitude in one's children, so that they will also follow this same path.

3) Rushi-Yagya(Worship of Rishis):
Rishis have passed on great knowledge to humans through their magnificent works. Generally, a poet or a writer composes a work for money or fame or some other selfish motive. Unlike this, a rishi is neither interested in material wealth or worldly fame or any other selfish motive. A rishi creates the literature with only one purpose: the welfare of the world. Thus, that literature is extremely auspicious and precious. Such a great literature is gifted by the rishis to humankind. Therefore, every human is indebted to these rishis. This is called rishi-runam.

That knowledge given by rishis must not go in vain. It must not go extinct. So, it is the duty of all human beings to learn that knowledge themselves and then pass it on to their next generation. One may not know the worth of the knowledge that is being passed on from generation to generation, but still one must not break that chain.

Today, there are many researches being done based on these ancient source from different angles. These sources have survived because they were passed on from generation to generation. Those passing the knowledge may or may not have known the worth of it. They may or may not be in a position to envisage how this knowledge would be lead to new researches in future. But, if they had not passed on this knowledge dutifully from generation to generation, then the knowledge would have been extinct. And nothing left to do any research on.

Today, one may not realise the importance of the knowledge that is being passed down. May be, it will have great importance for future generations. Generally, people(specially, modern day Hindus) tend to think,"first prove to me that this ancient knowledge is worth preserving, then I will try." This attitude is wrong. Because one may not realise the full worth of the ancient knowledge today, but if one does not propagate it, then nothing will be left for the future generations to research on.

One may complain that one does not have the time and capacity to pursue this course. The answer to that complaint is: Yatha-shakti(depending on one's capability).

One can learn and pass-on as much as one is capable of. Chanakya says,
"Let not a single day pass without your learning a verse, or half a verse, or a fourth of it, or at least a single letter; nor without attending to charity(dana), study(sva-adhyaya) and other pious activity(karma)." Chanakya Niti, Chapter 2, shloka 10.

Chanakya is saying that not even a single day must be allowed to pass without learning atleast one shloka from the literature of Rishis. If one does not have the time for even one shloka, then one can learn half of shloka. If not even that, then learn one-fourth of shloka. If even that is not possible, then atleast learn a single letter. But, do not abandon it completely. Inculcate the habit of learning. The habit is important. The amount of time will increase slowly. The capability will increase gradually. But, first and foremost inculcate the habit by not skipping it for even a single day.

After, 'matru-devo bhava and pitru devo bhava', the next step is:
acharya devo bhava(worship the acharya) and svadhyaya na pramaditavyam(don't neglect the self-study).

This is an important distinguishing factor. Abrahamic religions(particularly X-ianity) has a history of being opposed to learning. Church had tried(and perhaps, still tries) to keep strict control over the transmission of knowledge. Libraries containing valuable books were burnt down and most of that knowledge is unavailable today. Church had perpetuated ignorance and illiteracy.

With the decline and fall of the Roman Empire the Christian religion spread and grew, among the Barbarian destroyers of Rome. The Dark Ages contemporaneously spread their intellectual pall over Europe. Scarcely any but priests and monks could read. Charlemagne learned to wield the pen only to the extent of scrawling his signature. The barons who wrested Magna Carta from John Lackland signed with their marks and seals. The worst criminals, provided they were endowed with the rare and magic virtue of knowing how to read even badly, enjoyed the “benefit of clergy” (i.e., of clerical learning), and escaped immune or with greatly mitigated punishment. There were no books save painfully-written manuscripts, worth the ransom of princes, and utterly unattainable except by the very wealthy and by the Church; not till about 1450 was the first printed book known in Europe. The Bible existed only in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin, and the ignorant masses were totally ignorant of it other than what they heard from the priests, who told them that they must believe it or be tortured and killed in life and damned forever in the fires of hell after death. It is no wonder that faith flourished under conditions so exceptionally favorable
(Wheless, Is It God's World, 1926)

In contrast to the above policies, Hinduism/SD urges the people to pursue knowledge. Except Vedas, there are no restrictions on learning. Even Vedas can be learnt indirectly through other sources, according to the scriptural precedents.

4) Manushya-Yagya(Worship of Humans):
No individual can live in isolation. No family lives by itself. Every individual depends on others(society) directly or indirectly. Just as one takes from others, one must also give back to others as much as possible(yatha-shakti).

The most famous aspect of this is: 'athithi devo bhava'(worship the guests). Take care of those guests(invited or uninvited) who come to your home. Take care of them with a cheerful heart regarding it as a privilege, instead of thinking the hosting job as a punishment.

Helping others as much as possible(danam). The least one can do is not harming others(ahimsa).

But, danam and ahimsa must be understood properly.
johneeG wrote:
varunkumar wrote:^^^ The Indian habit of giving privileges to others for free without asking for anything in return keeps coming back to bite it in the arse. When you keep distributing rights to others as Santa Clause, they start treating you like dirt. These rights and privileges should be given after hard negotiations and extracting equal value in return.


Mistakes:
Apatra danam... (charity/generosity to undeserving). Ex: India's relationship with India's neigbours.
Charity/generosity beyond one's capacity. Ex: India trying to provide electricity to pakis.
Charity/generosity without taking into account geo-political implications(Desha-Kala-Paristhiti). Aman ki asha, Hindi-Chini bhai bhai, ...etc.
Charity/generosity motivated by the leadership based on their own bias(or vested interests), rather than welfare of the country. example: India offering flood-aid to pakis.

The scriptures prescribe certain attitudes and conditions under which daana becomes fruitful and effective. First, one must give according to one's capacity. One must not give in excess of one's capacity and then expect a favour in return from the recipient. Anything which is given with a hidden motive or with an expectation of material returns is not daana.

Second, the donor must have a proper attitude - Shraddha (with deep respect, sincere trust and dignity). Any act of charity done without Shraddha becomes meaningless. The donor must not consider oneself superior to the recipient. Swami Vivekananda says the donor that we must feel grateful that someone is giving us the opportunity to share our knowledge or resources; it is the donor who benefits from the act of giving; not the recipient. The donor must look upon the recipient as God himself in human form and perform charity with great humility.

Third, the recipient also must satisfy some conditions. He must be a worthy recipient - adhikari. The scriptures prohibit apatra daanam- charity done to an unworthy recipient is not only fruitless but can also prove dangerous - like money given to a drunkard or a drug addict who might injure others after indulging.

Finally, one has to be sensitive to the desa-kala parameters. Charity should be done at the right time, at the right place and with due respect to all the protocols and rituals. Charity thus performed becomes a boon both to the giver and the receiver.


The above factors are applicable to ahimsa also. Force is not equal to himsa. Only unnecessary/unreasonable force is equal to himsa. Punishing the guilty is not himsa. Even if it is himsa for the guilty, it is ahimsa to the victims of the guilty. Self-defence is not himsa. himsa-ahimsa is a huge topic, but this is the gist of it.

5) Bhuta-Yagya(worship of beings):
Human beings depend on each other for survival. But, human beings collectively depend on other beings for survival. And therefore, it is the duty of the Human beings to take care of other beings to the best of their abilities.

That means taking care of animals, plants and nature in general. Abstaining from unnecessarily hurting the animals or plants or any other creatures. Helping other creatures(plants and animals) as much as one can, is called bhuta yagya.

These 5 yagyas are collectively called Pancha-yagya. Lalitha Sahasranama praises the Goddess as 'Pancha-Yagya-Priya)(Lover of Pancha-Yagyas). These 5 Yagya are based on love, compassion and gratitude for one and all. Practicing them refines the practitioner.

Practising the Pancha-Yagya leads to qualities like Maithri(friendliness) and Karuna(compassion).
Practising the pancha-yagya without expecting any results(or offering the results to God/Goddess) leads to Chitta-shuddi(cleansing of mind).

Maitri, Mudita, Karuna, upeksanam Sukha-Dukkha-Punyapunya Visayanam bhavanatachitta Prasadanam (33rd Yoga Suta of Patanjali)

Friendliness, happiness, compassion, tolerance towards comfort/pain and virtue/vice makes the mind suitable.

Once the mind is in this state, then the vairagya(detachment) can be inculcated. After that, mumukshutvam(yearning for liberation).

Marriage and Family:
The basic requisite to follow the above 5 yagyas is a family(married couple). A married couple is the basic unit of society from hindu perspective. So, marriage has to be preserved. Break down in family structure will spread havoc in society. In modern times(particularly in the west and increasingly being aped by others), the state is trying to destabilize the family structure and instead replace with a dependency of all individuals on the state for security, succor and livelihood. This is a wrong model with several flaws. Instead, state most support and promote the marriage and discourage the break down of family structure.

Divorce or separation of family members must be a final resort when there is no other choice.

Here is a discourse of Samavedam Shanmukha Sharma on this topic: Idi na bharatiyata(This is my Indian culture).
http://vimeo.com/56317676
It is in telugu. Those who know telugu, can avail it.

My post has been based on that discourse...

---
devesh wrote:RajeshA ji,

I am not advocating "othering" of the Dvaitins. I am only suggesting that the "surrender theology" needs to relax a bit. the gurus and acharyas need to stop stressing this aspect, and eventually after the political awakening happens, we can revisit the concept and reinterpret it.

regardless of my issues with the extreme Dvaitins, I personally have not given up Bhakti marga. to me, that was the first seed of SD I was endowed with from family. and that will remain with me till the end. but I do wish that there is a reorientation of focus.


Saar,
misuse and abuse of any concept is quite natural and par for the course. Any concept can be misused and abused deliberately or inadvertently. First thing is to check whether the concept is inherently flawed. Most of the SD concepts are not inherently flawed.

And if a concept is being misused or abused, it is better to rectify the usage than to abandon it. In case of surrender, one can rectify it by saying, 'surrender does not mean inaction, but detached action(without fretting about results). That means surrendering the rewards of the action. Karmanye Vadhikaraste, Ma phaleshou kada chana
Ma Karma Phala Hetur Bhurmatey Sangostva Akarmani
(You have the right to perform your actions, but you don't have power on results of the actions.
Don't act for results(instead act because it is your duty). Don't be attached to inaction)"

---
Harbans' hypothetical situation is not unique to Hindus. The same choice can be placed before any other community: make compromises and live(to fight another day) or fight(and risk extinction).

Different people react to the above choice differently based on the various calculations(including geo-political calculations, emotional temperaments, social values, ...etc). One cannot make judgements on such choices unless one is placed in the same situation. It is easy to pronounce judgements, but talk is cheap. Having said that, one cannot use this logic to justify all surrender, especially when the circumstances are favorable. Of course, those who surrendered would like to justify their actions.

---
RajeshA wrote:ravi_g ji,

The Constitution fails to address what belongs in the purview of "religion". Does Jihad belong to it as well? After all it is considered a religious duty of the Muslims? Does Shariah belong to "freedom of religion"? Does "death for apostates" belong to "freedom of religion"? Does spreading hate propaganda against polytheism, idolatry and vegetarianism constitute "freedom of religion"? Is killing or cutting off of hands in the name of blasphemy constitute "freedom of religion"? Does expanding demographically to an extent that one can usurp the Constitution belong in the field of "freedom of religion"? Does passing fatwas on singing girl bands constitute "freedom of religion"?

Religious Freedom should be applicable for the citizen only to the profession and practice of personal "Moksha Marg". Everything else should be overseen according to Dharmic principles, and Bharat's security and civilizational interests.


Saar ji,
the real problem is that religion(and culture) politics and modern science does not have any boundaries.
Politics wants to decide the boundaries of religion and modern science, while politics itself wants to be unlimited.
Modern science wants to decide the boundaries of politics and religion, while modern science itself wants to be unlimited.
Religions wants to decide the boundaries of politics and modern science, religion itself wants to be unlimited.

Strictly speaking modern science is almost a religion. Not just modern science, but many political ideologies and economic ideologies are becoming a religion. A religion is supposed to be dogmatic and based on blind belief...

Constitution because it is drafted by the politicians, wants to limit the religion by defining boundaries of social life where religion is valid. If the constitution were drafted by the religious minded, then they would have limited the power of politicians.

ravi_g wrote:Most of what is there in the constitution is very acceptable. A few points are fossilized remains of Gulam Zeheniyat debated heavily which are well known, talked over on this forum too. These parts are very very harmful in any run and that is why the long debate.

Also most of the Constitution has remained unchanged from its inception and was drafted by a team which was reasonably aware of Dharmic memes. They actually did a rather good job considering the limitations.

A lot of this discussion was actually avoidable had people read it and understood its practice before voicing their concerns. The so named constitutionalists are not even constitutionalists actually. They just think they are. So I went along with the flow.

Personally I have a view that the Constitution has some of the following additional limitations and these can only be addressed by the Dharm-Karm framework being used at ground level:

1) virtually zero relevance at how one person should behave with other. In any case on this point most of the modernists will be satisfied if their life and limb are saved. It is the rest of the crowd that needs it. A kind of directive principle of personal policy would have helped.

2) strong limitations on how the individual should understand the layered existence of themselves and of people/institutions around. This too is required only in principle in the constitution for the general guidance of Judiciary. The practice of a layered existence cannot be upheld for any length of time without the involvement of people and that is where the focus should be.

3) Over the years Constitution has been used as a religious book itself. That is the pain point. This ‘cannot change the basic structure of the constitution’ is dangerous business. Weak people come to it thinking it will protect the varied minorities that constitute Hinduism. And while it actually fails to do that it also lays down a trap for the future Dharmics when the Abrahmics become majority on this land.

The basic solutions in these regard remain executable at the level of society only and no amount of law giving will solve a problem that is drivers for which are below the constitutional radar. The smarter foreigners know this that is why they keep prodding the general population, using various agencies. This way they hope to drive the general population around a khunta/peg so their shenanigans go unnoticed and one fine day they will come up with the highly contorted version of the constitution the basic structure of which cannot be changed.

Baaki kuch yaad ayega to likhunga. Thanks.


+108.

---
RamaY saar,
interesting thought experiments...

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RamaY » 06 Feb 2013 22:57

Erudite gurus,

Sri Gurubhyo Nama:!

Could you please give me a peek into the Indian Interests from a Christian and Islamic perspectives?

If I can get some guidance in this, I may be able to see the light that is glowing in far away deserts after so many tunnels.

Thanks in advance.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby brihaspati » 07 Feb 2013 01:53

How can the "Constitution" as it stands be "inclusive"? Or maybe the sense in which we use "inclusive" needs to be clarified.

If you are recognizing differences of constructed identities - and providing incentives for those identities to remain distinct and separate, you are not being inclusive. You are merely being tolerant. Inclusion is developing commonalities.

What the Indian "constitution" has effectively done, is put up a patchwork of unstable equilibria. If you are trying to include identity constructions that defy changes, or ensure legal, state protected coercive rights to prevent changes or adaptations - you are providing the perfect future timeline for inter-identity tensions to rip the society apart.

This is a Constitution you would expect from an emperor, or an autocrat. It is in his interest to protect identity divides in such a way that the only common bit will be the allegiance to the state, or overall authority of the state. That means identity conflicts would have to be resolved only at the discretion of the emperor - thereby the emperor gains immense arbitration powers. Such a state structure will pretend extreme neutrality on identity questions, but will actually promote all possible means of preserving and even enhancing identity divides. The British did it - and were quite successful. The Russian Tsars went the other direction and fell miserably.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RamaY » 07 Feb 2013 03:02

Looks like this post is destined to be seen by general public... AoA onleee

Just to put some perspective...

The Westernized Side Of My Background was written by Rajiv Malhotra 9 years ago. And the context of that article is the confusion/strategy occurs in a world where an individual goes thru a christian-centric education system, islam-centric media and hindu-centric rituals and so on.

Sri RM laments that the Hindu temple system is not prepared to handle the changing needs of Hindus, especially in the realm of ideological guidance.

Since then we have seen many videos where Sri RM visited temples and gave his "being different" based speeches/Q&As. But again that would be a debate between a Hindu and a Dhimmi-Hindu.

In order to take the fight into the opposite camp Sri RM had to conduct these very debates in those christian-centric education centers and islam-centric media houses, which he is doing with great pride and success. My salutations to him for that.

However the question remains - Should temples become the new philosophical centers of Hinduism? The answer is YES and the efforts are on the way. But expecting to have every priest that we come across to entertain us in philosophical debate might be a little too much.

In spite of all these it is silly to relate someone's experience with a concept. It is like a scientific-illiterate like me demanding a radio repairman to explain how radio waves work and how they get to carry the information along with the and blaming science for being fake/stupid/ritualistic just because some repairman didn't answer my questions and satisfy my intellectual thirst.

This reminds me of the story I told SaiK garu a long time ago - viewtopic.php?f=24&t=4817&p=684059&hilit=Tarka#p684059

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby member_22872 » 07 Feb 2013 03:17

However the question remains - Should temples become the new philosophical centers of Hinduism? The answer is YES and the efforts are on the way. But expecting to have every priest that we come across to entertain us in philosophical debate might be a little too much.


RamaY garu,

RM ji in his book Being Different makes a distinction between Rishis, gyanis and priests. He says priests are mere knowledge gatherers and scatterers. You can go to them for a scriptural instruction, but for a deeper insight as philosophy demands, priests might not be the agents. One more thing is unlike judeo-Christian religions, so far temples never influenced to whom a common Hindu should pray to, and shouldn't pray etc. What I mean to say is, temples didn't pay the role of standard institutions like Churches to demand a certain religious belief from common Hindu. There never was a centralized institution like church which played this role in the life of a common christian/muslim. Now if you give make temples the central institution of Hindu religion, there is a danger of the role of temples to be understood and later abused. Then later tomorrow, you will haunted by the same corruption and abuse of power by temples that plagues churches now.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby member_20317 » 07 Feb 2013 10:45

venug bhai,

Reality:
Since childhood I too have been told of the difference between Pujari, Gyanis and Rishi/Munis.

Differences are understandable in much the same manner as the way a school teacher cannot be expected to be a great researcher or a great researcher cannot be expected to be a great practioner.

Going to school teacher is required only if you cannot make sense of the problem. Beyond that you are on your own to figure out the subject and then eventually to apply the knowledge to real life. What RM has been able to do is to clarify this distinction for posterity too.


The Mahima Mandan:
The debate that goes on to equate Sanskrit ==Hindu == Dharmic is used merely to obfuscate the truth that the definitions of basic concepts can only be taken from the source. It just will not make any sense if I write the following in all my books:

Urad dal badi == 6.626068 × 10^-34 m^2 kg / s.

That would be wrong for both Paakvidya and Vigyaan. Perhaps the Vigyaani may be ok with this but what if the cook is not?



The solution:
Reality is that almost all guidance handed over to Indians since long has tended towards making things shorter/manageable/usable. So much so that Vedas and Gita have repeated the message of going beyond the written word of Vedas and Gita. Obviously Sanskrit also is to be abandoned at some point along the journey.



The rationale behind the solution:
It was in this light venug ji that the stand taken by KLPDubey ji was valid. Everything ‘Krit’ is going to go ‘Kaput’ someday. So at a certain point that is not pointable and is only passable, the meaning is not important, utterly Mahima mandit and glazed over by that time. At such point you are left with only two things the Shabd (the flow is innate) and a presumption. This is the point one finds what one was looking for the ‘bhaav’ that has seated itself deep. This moment acts as the mirror. This is also what others observe.

KLPDubey ji sounded angry but nobody got it clarified with him if his anger was a function of his frustration or of his bloated ego. Probably he was also of some age. So now you understand why it is important not to look for history in RV. History is nashwar being of only the krit. History can only be of the Krit. The eternal has no distinction of history/future/present. Goes beyond both time and space. The eternal is the mirror that reflects after all the song and dance has gone past.

You want to save both Desh and Dharm, you have to stop playing the other man's nautanki (play/drama) and wield at least one of the four chatustyam.

I hope I have made some progress in tying up the need for the Dharmics to be on the right side of the Rishis.


PS : That thing I wrote on Philosophy thread was not mine. That was Jaimini. Hope you see how Jaimini and Kumarila were connected.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Murugan » 08 Feb 2013 08:38

Bharatiya Bhavshya == Bharatiya Bhasha (Language), Bhusha (Dresses), Bhaishaj (Medicine), Bhojan (Cuisine), and Bharat Bhraman

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 08 Feb 2013 21:59

Cross-posting a post by Rudradev from "Indian Interests" Thread

Hari Seldon wrote: Harbans may well hv a point.


Actually, Hari ji, Harbans ji does not even have the ghost of a point.

Harbans ji's elevation of "Values" as a fundamental category, rather than a category that always and exclusively depends on cultural context, is so outmoded it's not even funny. It harks back to the moral positivism (once known as "modernism") of Hegel, and even prior to that, the romanticism of Fichte and Schelling. The underlying idea is that ALL human beings are essentially capable of adopting a universal set of norms independent of context, and are ultimately capable of accepting such abstract notions as "Truth", "Courage," "Justice", "Liberty" etc. as categories with universally applicable meaning. This is, in fact, the root of what Rajiv Malhotra calls "Western Universalism."

In any realm of serious philosophical scholarship, Harbans ji's ideas have been thrown in the trash more than fifty years ago, when postmodernists such as Jacques Derrida and Michel Foucault established that absolute "Values" are nothing but a figment of romanticist imagination. The science of epistemology ("how do we come to know/believe what we think we know/believe") has demonstrated the falsehood of moral positivism in a consistent and repeatable manner. Other than on a timepass internet discussion, nobody would take Harbans ji seriously.

Let me illustrate the epistemological process with an example. Here is a value: the decimal number "10.2".

"10.2" is a perfectly good "Value", as any mathematician will tell you. However, that's exactly where its utility ends. The moment you do even the smallest operation with this value, such as assigning it to a variable in computing, you are giving it context. Its utility and meaning derives completely and entirely from its context.

The first question to answer is "10.2 what?" Are we talking in the domain of finance, physics, geographical surveying, medicine? The moment you specify a domain (which is 100% necessary for the Value to have utility) context has already taken over the picture. The Value by itself is nothing.

Let us say "finance". Ok, so what is the denomination and currency? 10.2 rupees? 10.2 lakh rupees? 10.2 crore rupees? 10.2 million USD? Each and every qualifier that gives meaning and utility to the "value" embeds it deeper and deeper into some context or other.

There is still more. Let us say it is 10.2 lakh rupees. What is the meaning of that? Does it mean the same thing to Anil Ambani, to myself, and to an agricultural labourer in interior Maharashtra? Only with subjectivity is the meaning of a value enriched and stabilized. The more context it has, the more useful it becomes. Without context it is perfectly useless... and that's what is wrong with Harbans ji's argument that Values devoid of context, specifically the Hindu context, can serve any purpose whatsoever in the definition of Indian interests.

When Harbans ji says "Truth" it is meaningless. He has already, inherently imbued some context to the word "Truth" even by defining it within his own mind. He qualifies it as "truth" based on some notion of what Dharma teaches. The Muslim has an entirely different idea of what qualifies as "truth". To a Muslim the truth is "La Illaha Illillah, Mohammed Rasool Ullah". When Harbans ji offers "Truth" as a parameter for defining Indian interests he is doing something as fundamentally useless as taking a handful of air, claiming it as his own and offering it to you as a gift. Can he control who else has breathed that air, will breathe that air, is breathing it now? Can he control what other substances other people have put into that air? Air has a "value" based on certain partial pressure of constituent gases, but it is only when it resides in my lungs, oxygenates my tissues, that it has utility for me.

The pretense that Values have any utility at all, independent of cultural context... which in India means Hindu context... is simply daft. To say that "only Truth matters and the rest is Maya" is moronic, and betrays a complete failure to understand even the meaning of the term "Maya." Maya is not falsehood, it is a hierarchy of contingent realities. As described in the Chandogya Upanishad, ALL reality except for Brahman is conditional and contingent on some underlying reality; the nama-rupa (name and form) of a clay pot is contingent on the existence of clay. Similarly, the value of "Truth" has an existence that is 100% contingent on the context from which it came... i.e. for Indian interests, the Hindu context.

In pretending that "Truth" is an absolute value with any utility whatsoever, Harbans ji is not merely echoing the long-debunked moral positivism of Hegel. He is even failing to understand the basic precepts of the Dharma he claims as his own... and promoting Maya as absolute reality.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 08 Feb 2013 22:05

Cross-Posting a post by RamaY from "Indian Interests" Thread

harbans wrote:Why don't you identify Hindu interests on the Bharatiya thread?


Rhetorical question. But I will answer as it might help other readers.

1. Territorial Integrity - It is in Hindu interests that PoK+Aksaichin are reclaimed and controlled by Bharat. It is in Hindu interests to have Afghanistan, Pakistan, Nepal, Tibet, Bhutan, Bangladesh, Burma, Kambodia, Srilanka, Maldives become part of Indian union governed under Bharatiya umbrella so Hindus can visit all their holy places without any issues, fear or external approvals.

2. Civilizational Integrity - It is in Hindu interests that the above mentioned area comes under Bharatiya protection so Hindu civilization can maintain its strength and face the threats from other non-Indic civilizations effectively.

3. Cultural Integrity - It is in Hindu interests that all the blemishes of foreign invasions and colonial rule are removed from its lands and its historical cultural artifacts are rebuilt in higher glory. This will make Bharat stand proud for regaining its cultural symbols

4. Food Security - It is in Hindu interests that every Bharatiya has food security and have no issues related to mal-nutrition.

5. Energy Security - It is in Hindu interests that Bharat has access to necessary energy resources from within and outside so its industrial and economic growth is not hindered

6. Political Integrity - It is in Hindu interests that Bharat writes its constitution completely free of colonial constructs and worldview that can serve only Bharatiya and no other interests

7. Social Integrity - It is in Hindu interests that Bharat develops a governance and social mechanism that would make rule of law equal for all its citizens without any bias.

9. Religious security - It is in Hindu interests that Bharat offers real religious freedom that ensures that religions that do not sanctify the preeminence of Bharatiya constitution and rule-of-law are modified to make the Bharat paramount.

There is no Indian Interest beyond Hindu interest and there is no Hindu interest that conflicts with Indian interests

You want more?

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 03:20

Response to Ramy's BS post:

1. Territorial Integrity - It is in iSLAMIC interests that PoK+Aksaichin are reclaimed and controlled by Bharat. It is in islamic interests to have Afghanistan, Pakistan, Nepal, Tibet, Bhutan, Bangladesh, Burma, Kambodia, Srilanka, Maldives become part of Indian union governed under Bharatiya umbrella so iSLAMICS can CREATE all their holy places without any issues, fear or external approvals.

2. Civilizational Integrity - It is in ISLAMIC interests that the above mentioned area comes under ISLAMIC protection so ISLAMIC civilization can maintain its strength and face the threats from other non-ISLAMIC civilizations effectively.

3. Cultural Integrity - It is in ISLAMCI interests that all the blemishes of colonial rule are removed from its lands and its ISLAMIC cultural artifacts are rebuilt in higher glory. This will make Bharat stand proud for regaining its ISLAMICsymbols

4. Food Security - It is in ISLAMIC interests that every ISLAMIC has food security and have no issues related to mal-nutrition.

5. Energy Security - It is in ISLCAMI interests that Bharat has access to necessary energy resources from within and outside so its industrial and economic growth is not hindered

6. Political Integrity - It is in ISLAMIC interests that Bharat writes its constitution completely free of colonial constructs and worldview that can serve only Bharatiya and no other interests

7. Social Integrity - It is in ISLAMIC interests that Bharat develops a governance and social mechanism that would make rule of law equal for all its citizens without any bias.

9. Religious security - It is in ISLAMIC interests that Bharat offers real religious freedom that ensures that religions that do not sanctify the preeminence of ISLAMIC Bharatiya constitution and rule-of-law are modified to make the Bharat paramount.

There is no Indian Interest beyond ISLAMIC interest and there is no ISLAMIC interest that conflicts with Indian and Arabian interests

You want more?

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 03:21

The above is the reality of your RHETORIC and Bullcrap, because you are nothing but the mirror image of the scum that you so vehemently protest. No sense of values = scum.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 03:28

The filth is those that talk Bharatiya and all that jazz but are ready to contemplate Girl populations to make a deal with some Mlecha asking for daughters and sisters for not breaking a temple. Break the back of that scum. Call them SCUM and FILTH. That is what is needed in this country. So how many of you here are ready to make deals of your daughters and sisters in the face of pressure? I know a few here who talk Bharatiya.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 03:33

This is a clear example of Prophetic Drishti-Srishti vaada.


The poster just shut the **** up once it was revealed it is RM who said so. After all that truthfully disown RM's views at the minimum. You have no credibility really. But of course to promote HIndutva you can be a lying, cheating and dishonorable person. All these notions of not lying, cheating and being honest are Western..right?

Freakin BS of the highest order!

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 03:39

Harbans ji is not merely echoing the long-debunked moral positivism of Hegel. He is even failing to understand the basic precepts of the Dharma he claims as his own


BULLCRAP ! Where have i claimed basic precepts of Dharma as my OWN? Eh? Oh Truth is not sacrosanct in Hindutva! You are allowed to lie to prove your point. No i don't any longer trust your debate or your point of view.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Agnimitra » 09 Feb 2013 03:52

harbans wrote:Who does Rudra ji quote here against me? Western thought.
...
Continue thinking such. Your India will shrink. Your 'Hindu' will shrink.

harbans ji,

W.r.t. your response to RudraDev ji's post:

There is consensus that the Vedic idea of "morality" is Consequentialist, not Deontological. Choosing an action is to be based on "logic", rather than feelings about what is "moral high ground". After all, when injecting a serum can make someone speak "truth", how can you call that a spiritual and absolute virtue??

Krishna in MahaBharata 8.49.48-49 wrote:दुष्करं परमज्ञानं तर्केणात्र व्यवस्यति
श्रुतिर्धर्म इति ह्येके वदन्ति बहवो जनाः ।
न त्वेतत् प्रतिसूयामि न हि सर्वं विधीयते ।

"It is difficult to grasp the highest understanding
[of morality]. One ascertains it by reasoning. Now there
are many people who simply claim ‘morality is scripture.’
Though I don’t oppose that view, scriptures do not give rules
for every case.” [MahaBharata 8.49.48-49]


Later in the same passage, Krishna explains the purpose of setting different moral codes in different eras for any group:

Krishna in MahaBharata 8.49.48-50 wrote:प्रभवार्थाय भूतानां धर्मप्रवचनं कृतम्
धारणाद्धर्ममित्याहुर्धर्मो धारयति प्रजाः ।
यः स्याद्धारणसंयुक्तः स धर्म इति निश्चयः ।

“Morality is taught for the progress of living beings.
Morality [dharma] derives from the act of sustaining [dharana].
Thus authorities say that morality [dharma] is that
which sustains living beings. The conclusion is that whatever
sustains is actually dharma.” [MahaBharata 8.49.48-50]


Thus, moral codes are based on pragmatic considerations such as realized experience of survival and viability. However, this does not mean it is "Historism" or a Hobbesian worldview. Rather, the meanings of these terms are also relative to the philosophical and spiritual maturity of the individual or group. The logic of moral action is to ensure the fullest/highest survival potential across all purusharthas taken as a Gestalt.

Sometimes, a moral action can seem contrary to what you call "truth telling":

MahaBharata 8.49.51-52 wrote:येsन्यायेन जिहीर्षन्तो जना इच्छन्ति कर्हिचित्
अकूजनेन चेन्मोक्षो नात्र कूजेत्कथंचन ।
अवश्यं कूजितव्यं वा शंकेरन् वाप्यकूजतः
श्रेयस्तत्रानृतं वक्तुं सत्यादिति व्चारितम् ।

“Whenever people seek to unjustly rob someone, if that
person can get free by not uttering a sound, then no sound
should be uttered. Or, one should necessarily utter a sound
if the robbers will be suspicious of silence. In that situation,
it is considered better to speak a lie than to speak the truth.”
[MahaBharata 8.49.51-52]


Lastly, I am copying the translation of a dialogue between Dharmaraj Yudhisthira and a mature Grandsire Bhishma on the very subject of what is Truth and Dharma:

MahaBharata 12.110.1-15 wrote:[MahaBharata 12.110.1-15]:
Yudhisthira said,
“How should a person who wants to stand on moral
principles behave? I seek to understand this, O wise one, so
kindly explain, O best of Bharatas.

“Both truth and falsity exist, covering the worlds. Of the
two, O king, which should a person dedicated to morality
practice? What is actually truth, what is falsity and what is
really the eternal moral principle?”

Bhishma said,
“Speaking truth is righteous. Nothing is higher than
truth. O Bharata, I shall speak to you that which is very hard
to understand on Bhuloka. Truth is not to be spoken and falsity
is to be spoken in a case where falsity becomes truth and
truth becomes falsity. An immature person is bewildered in
such a case where truth is not firmly established. Determining
truth and falsity, one then knows morality.

“Even a non-Aryan, lacking wisdom, indeed a very
violent man, can achieve very great piety as Balaka did by
killing the blind beast. And what is astonishing when a fool,
desiring morality but not recognizing it, achieves a very great
sin, like Kaushika on the Ganges?

“Such a question as this regarding where morality is to
be found, is very difficult to answer. It is difficult to calculate,
so in this matter, one must resolve the issue by reasoning.
Morality is that which prevents injury to living beings. That
is the conclusion.

“Morality (dharma) comes from the act of sustaining
(dharana). Thus authorities say that morality sustains living
beings. So that which provides such sustenance is dharma.
That is the conclusion.

“Certainly some people say, ‘Morality is scripture,’
while other people deny this. I do not deny it, but in fact
scriptures do not give rules for every case. Whenever people
seek unjustly to rob one’s property, it should not be divulged
to them. That is actually dharma. If a person can get free by
not uttering a sound, then no sound should be uttered. Or,
one should necessarily utter a sound if the robbers will be
suspicious of silence. In that situation, it is considered better
to speak a lie than to speak the truth. One who does so is
freed from the sins of taking a false oath.”


In conclusion:
1. To understand what is moral behavior, we cannot, in every
case, simply cite the moral rules of scripture.
2. One must also reason about morality.
3. In so reasoning, one must keep in mind that the whole
purpose of moral principles is to benefit people.
4. At times, good people, externally, perform bad deeds.
5. At times, bad people, externally, perform good deeds.
6. In such cases one must look beyond appearances to see
what actually produces good consequences.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 03:56

In conclusion:
1. To understand what is moral behavior, we cannot, in every
case, simply cite the moral rules of scripture.
2. One must also reason about morality.
3. In so reasoning, one must keep in mind that the whole
purpose of moral principles is to benefit people.
4. At times, good people, externally, perform bad deeds.
5. At times, bad people, externally, perform good deeds.
6. In such cases one must look beyond appearances to see
what actually produces good consequences.


So what has all the above to do with Hindutva and not with Islamic interests or Xtian interests or say Morsi of Egypts' interests? They can use the same basis, right?

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Agnimitra » 09 Feb 2013 04:00

harbans wrote:So what has all the above to do with Hindutva and not with Islamic interests or Xtian interests or say Morsi of Egypts' interests? They can use the same basis, right?

Yeah, anyone can use or misuse the same arguments. So what? Truth is not about arguments. It is about the fruit the tree bears. That is the proof. Time is the final Judge. Truth is witnessed in the core of the heart, not in slogans or arguments.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 04:05

Yeah, anyone can use or misuse the same arguments. So what?


Don't honor and use those arguments, then right?

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Agnimitra » 09 Feb 2013 04:22

harbans wrote:Don't honor and use those arguments, then right?

No, you're going around in circles. "Since the arguments can be misused, therefore let's trash them."

I mentioned in the same sentence that truth is not about whether an argument is double-edged or not. Rather, it is about intention and many other things that form the bridge between Thought, Life, Action and Consequence.

When deciding whether to trust someone, one can observe other characteristics of their awareness in order to judge their ability to handle truth. Based on that, one can decide on how to believe them, or what to speak to them.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 04:26

No, you're going around in circles.


Cut the crap Carl. Do you believe in TRUTH? As it is relative or absolute? Yes or No. No circles here.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Agnimitra » 09 Feb 2013 04:29

harbans, cool it. Yes, I believe in seeking truth.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 04:34

Yes, I believe in seeking truth.


Till what extent are you willing to honor truth? Can you give an example?

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Prem » 09 Feb 2013 04:37

harbans wrote:
No, you're going around in circles.


Cut the crap Carl. Do you believe in TRUTH? As it is relative or absolute? Yes or No. No circles here.


Is not Truth within and beyond both and only a realized soul can answer or even ask the questiion ? Simple truth is that Idea of Bharat is compatible with the idea of Dharma and incapitble with elevating Mleecic ingredients in society.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Agnimitra » 09 Feb 2013 04:38

harbans wrote:
Yes, I believe in seeking truth.


Till what extent are you willing to honor truth? Can you give an example?

As quoted in the previous post from the MBh. - Honor truth to the extent one can understand it as benefiting the greatest number of living entities on the greatest number of purusharthas taken as a whole. The greatest long-term good for the greatest number. The summum bonum. Simple.

Probably better to continue on the OT thread in GDF if you wish to discuss further.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 04:41

Prem ji, what differentiates the Mlecha with the Bharatiya? Is it Hindutva (that considers values secondary or tertiary), ritual, or is it plain values?

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 04:46

As quoted in the previous post from the MBh.


No Carl ji, no MBh etc. Your version. Do you need to look into Truth for any matter through MBh? What prism do you need to look into it?

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Agnimitra » 09 Feb 2013 04:53

harbans wrote:No Carl ji, no MBh etc. Your version. Do you need to look into Truth for any matter through MBh? What prism do you need to look into it?

No need to be so radical harbans ji. The prism I use is: sab ka suno, apna karo.
That includes reading various shastras and Agamas (Indic, Western or any other), bouncing ideas off of other folks, preferring a scientific explanation for things over supernatural authority, fixing my own ethics, be willing to creatively push the envelope of conventional contemporary moral codes, and taking responsibility for whatever decision I make.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Prem » 09 Feb 2013 04:54

Practice, Aamal more important than proclamations and pretentions . Doing Saying must match.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 05:01

Carl ji, if at all you should then realize ultimately the Bharatiya vision will always be based on some value systems in contrast to others. Not difference in ritual, pooja, natak, nritya, language etc.. So please do continue defining and crystallizing Bharatiya. Ultimately it has to boil down to value systems. It has to, there is no other way out.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Agnimitra » 09 Feb 2013 05:08

harbans wrote:Carl ji, if at all you should then realize ultimately the Bharatiya vision will always be based on some value systems in contrast to others. Not difference in ritual, pooja, natak, nritya, language etc.. So please do continue defining and crystallizing Bharatiya. Ultimately it has to boil down to value systems. It has to, there is no other way out.

I believe the "ritual" contents and cultural context have an important role to play in knowingness of the Self, if they are understood properly. This opinion is based on neuropsychology, neurolinguistics and other such scientific subjects. However, even these must alter based on time and place.

If by "value systems" you mean laws and scales of awareness characteristics graded from, say, 'ignorance and bondage' to 'knowledge and freedom', then it makes more sense to me - at least as a way to understand the environment (exterior and "inner"). But if you mean it in Kantian terms of moral imperatives, then I disagree. That is an 'autistic' idea.

Indic idea is based not on "truth" but on seeking truth. So it is continuous practice and learning and altering practice.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RamaY » 09 Feb 2013 05:19

harbans wrote:Response to Ramy's BS post:
<snip>
There is no Indian Interest beyond ISLAMIC interest and there is no ISLAMIC interest that conflicts with Indian and Arabian interests

You want more?


Harbans,

The above Bharat is now called Pakistan/Bangladesh/Afghanistan. I think you should pick one of these places and start your "Project TRUTH" there.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 05:51

Indic idea is based not on "truth" but on seeking truth. So it is continuous practice and learning and altering practice.


Are you really serious that now the point is seeking and not the Truth that is behind the Indic idea? Ridiculous, since i have been saying that all along and you have been supporting the contrarian agenda. When i say that GoI Institutions must reflect on the Truth does not imply some absolute, but in what is their scope. What is so hard to comprehend there?
The above Bharat is now called Pakistan/Bangladesh/Afghanistan. I think you should pick one of these places and start your "Project TRUTH" there.


Ramay if i used Xtian instead of Islamic you could say the above Bharat is called Europe and USA..where you took the mindnumbing troubles to seek a visa and green card and spend half or more or the rest of your life plus your childrens entire lives. Don't you even get the hypocrisy and futility of your counter? Why the F are you in Mlechapradesh for that matter? You've lived half or more of your life, have kids there that have all of theirs..you hate the country and more..so why?
Last edited by harbans on 09 Feb 2013 05:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby brihaspati » 09 Feb 2013 05:56

harbans ji,

territorial expansion under Bharatyias cannot be in islamic interests, if the nature of the Bharat rashtra changes from its current either by choice, or by force of circumstances, or by prior transnational compromises [or a combination of all three] - of its Islamo-protective role.

The crucial aspect is to realize that the problem is first level - directly related to the flawed construction of the rashtra, and not with the supposed lack of clarity of definition of the "Hindu" [even if I agree that a definition is lacking, and perhaps stems from a failure to realize the processual nature of Hindu"ism"].

The ideology and nation-based on ideology, is more robust and longer lasting than the specific form a rashtra takes on the basis of that ideology. Rashtra is the superstructure standing on the base of the "nation". Even if that nation appears to be ill-defined, does not necessarily mean that a definition does not exist. The rashtra changes when the "nation" needs it to change.

On the other hand, I see not much problem in straightaway saying for example that "we" do not support any ideology or religion that promotes, protects, and approves of slavery and sex-slavery or rape of captive women and automatic annulment of their marriages if they were married at the time of capture. Any religion that makes this an inalienable part of its divinely revealed ordinances, is completely against all Hindu ethics, values, and cannot be part of the "Hindu" or the Bharatyia nation.

Similarly, I have searched, but not found in any "Hindu" text, anything that puts a specific monetary price on the use rights of the sexual parts of a woman's body by a man as part of a "marital" contract. That bride-price was paid at a historical time, [to the relatives and not to the woman] is recognized in the multiple tabulated procedures of "marriage" in the "Hindu" texts, but is relegated to an "adhama" practice and is not given as the preferred one [as is the practice of mating with a drugged woman - also relegated as adhama].

I think we should and must recognize certain core Vedic rituals as a must : that which relates to birth, to start of literacy+education, start-of-spiritual life through upanayan, marriage [the vedic mutual obligations contract], and funerary ritual. There should also be mass celebrations of those practices that observe seasons, and astronomical events - inlcuding thos elike the spring festival, or the sowing and harvesting festivals, the festival of lights, and on the other end those like the Kumbh. Whether we build grand temples or not - we must repossess our geographically and geologically significant "teerthas", and if it comes to push to shove, yes if necessary we must "build" on those spots to remind future generations.

Whoever does not agree to this, is not walking with us as Bharatyias. As long as they do not obstruct us or attack us in our programme, we can tolerate them. But there can be no compromise on the agenda.

All this inward looking and twisting around cutting each other's hearts - comes from abandoning an agenda of territorial expansion under a clarified ideology. An impersonal imperialism, an imperialism led rather by a committed oligarchy with built in protections against allowing personal or family interests to come in solely to enforce a certain civilizational viewpoint - would generate the means and forces to test the steel that should be there in the spirit. Struggle, refines, and shows up the strong and points out the weak.

Not to harbans ji but to all:

I am saddened by the infighting. This is not what you should be doing. You have a very long war to fight, where many battles would be lost before the war is won. Think like an army and not a debating society of academics well fed and well warmed on the products of the labours of the commons.

Apologies if I appear presumptious.
Last edited by brihaspati on 09 Feb 2013 06:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RamaY » 09 Feb 2013 05:59

Harbans,

that is an idiotic argument. Where RamaY lives doesn't define Indian interests, does it?

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 06:04

Where RamaY lives doesn't define Indian interests, does it?


The fact that you state you hate, dislike and want Xtians dislodged from where you originated and yourself stay in a Xtian dominated state make money, eat, drink, educate your kids there and more...says a lot about your priorities for sure.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby brihaspati » 09 Feb 2013 06:07

It is necessary to measure up a person's intentions. If the intentions cross a threshold of future commitment to some common goal, is it not better to hold one's tongue and its capacity to cut? We need people to come together and complement or fill-in each others shortcomings.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Prem » 09 Feb 2013 06:34

Church is not Chistianity but a political , imperialistic movement, Christ as child of Budha is a real fine chap.
Muslamans in India as of now are not same as medieval Arab Imperialistic impulse. The day they want to exert political Arabism on Indics , they will become Mleecic tool , Sons of Sand and not Sons of Soil . IOI=Idea Of IndicIndia izz not compatible with AOA of Aarabia which is to kill kuffar, Kill intellect and Kill Humane values. Separation between Social and Spiritual saves India In flourishing Bharat. America too is based on JC values even though constitution is secular. India based not on Scripture but on Sananti Soul Values will remain Secular in real sense . We can practice Univeral Principles when Universe around us evovles to that high sacred standards of spiritual Truths . That will be a perfect world but we know that not all around us are as Perfect as "Indians" 8) Though they might be in the line after many Awagaman life cycles. Bharat cannot and dont deserve to perish and stop its march of destiny because few are caged in Mleecic Net ,repeatedly blowing their fuze , refusing to Cruise and want SOS to loose.
Anyone who has Bharti Interests at heart is Bhartputra , Doing otherwise are Kuputras deserving Juttras.
Last edited by Prem on 09 Feb 2013 06:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RamaY » 09 Feb 2013 06:36

harbans wrote:
Where RamaY lives doesn't define Indian interests, does it?


The fact that you state you hate, dislike and want Xtians dislodged from where you originated and yourself stay in a Xtian dominated state make money, eat, drink, educate your kids there and more...says a lot about your priorities for sure.


:rotfl: For funsi sake I will entertain you.

What is the difference between an NRI who lives in Unkiland and sends $20000 per year to India and an Indian who works for an multinational and makes Rs 10L in India?

What is the difference between an NRI who lives in Dubai/Koita where she works as a servant maid and sends Rs 3L per year to India and a posh Indian girl who spends Rs 3L in shopping per year?

And by the way the Christian Unkil or the Muslim Dubai are not doing any favor to the NRIs who are living there. They need them for their skills/costs and it is a pure business transaction.

It is funny that you want to talk about some truth, morals and dharma and pose questions like 3girls for temple or one believes truth and demand YES/NO answers.
:rotfl:

P.S: you are doing all this in a public forum.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 09 Feb 2013 12:03

harbans wrote:
Well you have been talking about "values" a long time, but it is hard to make out which "values" you mean! That is, any "values" beyond "Truth, Truth, Truth, Truth, ...."!


Well were you not he person who wrote these while quoting me:

harbans wrote:
1. Satyam (Truth)
2. Dhrti (patience)
3. Ks’ama (forgiveness)
4. Dhama (self-control)
5. Shaoca (cleanliness)
6. Dhii (benevolent intellect)
7. Vidya (knowledge)
8. Karuna (Compassion).
9. Samatha (Equality)


Oh i forgot. Truth is not sacrosanct for you. It's OK to LIE, CHEAT to prove a point (Hindutva specifically so) as long as it gets some imagined benefits.

Yes Truth = God. I do believe so. Hindu's don't from your posts. I can't trust your Hindutva..if that is what you represent.


harbans ji,

if I know you have proposed a list of "value labels", and I still critique you on not offering any "concrete values" despite your emphasis on values, then it means something else, right? That would be common sense.

Have you anywhere really undertaken an analysis of these "value labels" and

    Definition - Showed how these "value labels" can all be uniquely understood, leaving no scope for misunderstanding and misrepresentation, as has happened with other Constitutional provisions? Have you showed how these values demarcate Dharmic behavior from Abrahamic behavior?

    Necessary Condition - Done an analysis of the relevance of all these "value labels" to the state - how these values are absolutely necessary for the health of the state and society?

    Sufficient Condition - Showed if we followed these how it would help us avert the threat from the Abrahamics?


Barring such analysis, putting up a cut-and-paste list of "value labels" from somewhere is meaningless.
Last edited by RajeshA on 09 Feb 2013 12:58, edited 2 times in total.


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