The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

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RajeshA
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 09 Feb 2013 12:39

harbans wrote:
Where RamaY lives doesn't define Indian interests, does it?


The fact that you state you hate, dislike and want Xtians dislodged from where you originated and yourself stay in a Xtian dominated state make money, eat, drink, educate your kids there and more...says a lot about your priorities for sure.


This is the usual NRI bashing - if you are a NRI, you cannot be really concerned for Bharat, and you must be a hypocrite! :roll:

1) Even officially there is now what one calls - "Person of Indian Origin" (PIO) status. Not that one needs it but it underlines the recognition that even if one holds a foreign (non-Indian) passport, there is a bond which still remains to India, and does not vanish with taking another passport. It does not mean that the personal stakes of the NRIs in the situation in India (economic, law & order, governance, etc.) is just as high as it is for a Indian residing in India, but there is absolutely no need to doubt that for NRIs and PIOs, the civilizational stake in India's well-being is any less important to them as to Indians residing in India, and due to this civilizational stake, everything else also attains a higher importance.

2) Resident Indians have of course a ringside view of what is happening in India, especially with regard to Abrahamic pressure on the common Indian. NRIs and PIOs on the other hand become sensitized to this civilizational conflict due to their own environment in foreign lands, where they often have to reflect over questions of civilizational identity. The difference in perspective is one fresh-water fish living in its waters disturbed by the pollution and another fish from those waters now living in some other waters (salt-waters) feeling out of (its) waters.

3) In immigrant countries like USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and even South Africa, there is no need for the Bharatiya to feel that that Christianity is the de-facto culture of the land, and through one's presence one is intruding upon that culture and needs to feel obliged to respecting that culture. Even in other countries, once the cultures were "pagan" and not Abrahamic, so even there one need not accept the reigning Abrahamic religion as the host culture and thus show unlimited deference and indebtedness.

4) Too much emphasis is given on Westphalian nation-state constructs. Civilizations exist in a transnational sense. So regardless of whether a Bharatiya is in India or not, as long as he is immersed in Bharatiya Sanskriti and identifies himself with Bharatiya Sabhyata, he is in Bharat! One does not become an alien when one leaves Bharat's shores.

So we need to consider all this, before one makes arguments such as those above.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 09 Feb 2013 12:41

Cross-posting a post of Rudradev from "Indian Interests" Thread

harbans wrote:
Harbans ji's elevation of "Values" as a fundamental category, rather than a category that always and exclusively depends on cultural context, is so outmoded it's not even funny. It harks back to the moral positivism (once known as "modernism") of Hegel


Who does Rudra ji quote here against me? Western thought.

even prior to that, the romanticism of Fichte and Schelling.


Again Rudra Ji who are you trying to quote to disprove me? Western philosophers.


Harbans ji, Why should I not cite these Western Philosophers, when the idea you are peddling is a carbon copy of what these Western Philosophers advanced (and were debunked for) a hundred plus years ago? Apologies, but I can't think of any serious Indian philosopher who would be so ignorant as to propose moral positivism, or suggest that values alone have any meaning when separated from cultural context. This is the kind of numbskull thinking that led to the German Indologists, Aryan Invasion Theory etc. etc.

In any realm of serious philosophical scholarship, Harbans ji's ideas have been thrown in the trash more than fifty years ago, when postmodernists such as Jacques Derrida and Michel Foucault established that absolute "Values" are nothing but a figment of romanticist imagination.


So who are the Post modernists Jacques and Michel.? Western..


So? Will you not quote Darwin's theory of Evolution, in an argument against Creationism? Will you prefer to let Creationist lies go unchallenged, just because Darwin was a Westerner? What kind of commitment to the "truth" is that supposed to be? \ :lol:

The science of epistemology ("how do we come to know/believe what we think we know/believe")


Western meme used once again..


Ok Harbans ji, here you are correct, and I apologize. I should have used the term "siddhanta", the science of the means of understanding things, which is very much part of our tradition for thousands of years before the Westerners came up with epistemology.

My argument stands though. The science of siddhanta shows that values are meaningless devoid of context. Honestly, Indian thought has never been so backward as to propose moral positivism ("Values are absolute universal, stand-alone entities which are useful even when separated from cultural context.") So I had to give the example of ignorant Western Philosophers like Hegel being rebutted by the epistemology of Foucault.
The pretense that Values have any utility at all, independent of cultural context... which in India means Hindu context... is simply daft.


Continue thinking such. Your India will shrink. Your 'Hindu' will shrink.


On the contrary. It is exactly because of such thinking that my Hindu India SURVIVES despite the holocaust it has endured for 1,500 years.

In pretending that "Truth" is an absolute value with any utility whatsoever, Harbans ji is not merely echoing the long-debunked moral positivism of Hegel. He is even failing to understand the basic precepts of the Dharma he claims as his own... and promoting Maya as absolute reality.


Western references again.. Rhetoric and BS. Nothing else.


You are making a completely Western argument (that too, an outmoded and debunked Western argument) in suggesting that "Values" stripped away from Hindu Sanskriti Context can be useful in defining Indian Interests. So it is quite ridiculous that you criticize me for providing Western references in my rebuttal... when your entire point of view in this matter is Western Universalist, and has much more in common with Biblical/Quranic/Marxist injunctions than with Dharma.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 09 Feb 2013 12:55

harbans wrote:1. Satyam (Truth)
2. Dhrti (patience)
3. Ks’ama (forgiveness)
4. Dhama (self-control)
5. Shaoca (cleanliness)
6. Dhii (benevolent intellect)
7. Vidya (knowledge)
8. Karuna (Compassion).
9. Samatha (Equality)


If these values are presented without context, these can be applied to other non-Dharmic traditions as well:

1) Truth - lā ʾilāha ʾillā l-Lāh, Muḥammadun rasūlu l-Lāh

2) Patience - Thousand-Year Jihad, War with Thousand Cuts, ...

3) Forgiveness - If you convert, we will spare you!

4) Self-Control - Bide time till one has Demographic Majority (Moderate Islam)

5) Shaoca - Wudu and Ghusl

6) Benevolent Intellect - Allah o Akbar

7) Knowledge - Iman and Aqīdah

8 ) Compassion - Dhimmi paying Jizya

9) Equality - All (male) Muslims are "equal" in front of Allah

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Atri » 09 Feb 2013 13:55

RajeshA wrote:
harbans wrote:1. Satyam (Truth)
2. Dhrti (patience)
3. Ks’ama (forgiveness)
4. Dhama (self-control)
5. Shaoca (cleanliness)
6. Dhii (benevolent intellect)
7. Vidya (knowledge)
8. Karuna (Compassion).
9. Samatha (Equality)


If these values are presented without context, these can be applied to other non-Dharmic traditions as well:

1) Truth - lā ʾilāha ʾillā l-Lāh, Muḥammadun rasūlu l-Lāh

2) Patience - Thousand-Year Jihad, War with Thousand Cuts, ...

3) Forgiveness - If you convert, we will spare you!

4) Self-Control - Bide time till one has Demographic Majority (Moderate Islam)

5) Shaoca - Wudu and Ghusl

6) Benevolent Intellect - Allah o Akbar

7) Knowledge - Iman and Aqīdah

8 ) Compassion - Dhimmi paying Jizya

9) Equality - All (male) Muslims are "equal" in front of Allah


:rotfl: :rotfl:

bravo!!!

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 18:15

1) Truth - lā ʾilāha ʾillā l-Lāh, Muḥammadun rasūlu l-Lāh


Rajesh Ji, the nothing you say has any validity. Not one word you have ever written here ever. Simply because then every word can be falsified from it's very basic context. Truth: 'That which is true or in accordance with fact or reality' cannot be turned into "illah bullah whatever". When the Indian constitution gives context free terms Secularism and Socialism that does not mean Islamic secularism.

When Ramay gives his school kid idea of Bharatiya core like territorial integrity, economic integrity, hindu ritual every morning at GoI offices and Institutions..except for the ritual nothing really is unique to the bharatiya civilization. So one can have a Bharat that is all that extends to cambodia and tibet whatever one wet dreams, but if it does not value Truth, has no compassion to it's citizenry, has none of the values that i posted, then that Bharat deserves destruction.

In the days or weeks..you will realize how basically wrong you are. But one thing i will say go ahead and try defining yourself what Values would you the Bharat of your vision to reflect? Instead asking me, which i have answered, why don't you attempt the answer yourself. In fact i will ask others too reflect and attempt what Institutional values they desire to see in their version of Bharat.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby ShauryaT » 09 Feb 2013 18:22

Ofcourse values are in context and the context is a set of laws or a dharma shastra for our times. EVERY set of our law books contained values within them in spades, so what is the issue here? Is Harbans claiming that values do not have context? The way I read him is he is propagating a set of values for our times, for our nation and that too largely dharmic values. It is Indian systems that not only encoded values but behaviors and orders and detail instructions in various eras. I do not know, what is this big fight for? Do not know, why has reformation era german philosophers being quoted, who mostly got Indian systems wrong. Voltaire, Herder, Hegel, Schelling and Schopenhauer thought of India through a western prism. If western understanding has to be brought in then the Greece of Pythagoras, Plato and Plotinus has more in common with Hindu India than with Christian Europe.

I am in two minds though, if values need encoding and legislation in our times. I am split on this aspect. It is far more important to ensure that society lives by these values than its legislation. If legislation is the best way to achieve it, so be it. There is something to be said for the idea of a "soft constitution". These are largely values that society adheres to (yes, with varying contexts) but are not necessarily legislated. E.G: Government of, for and by the people is a sworn value system of the US - not legislated as such anywhere.

An insertion of the word "Dharmic" in the pre-amble is all that is absolutely required. All other things are details and should be a good and healthy debate.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 09 Feb 2013 18:42

Bharat & Women (Cont.)

brihaspati wrote:On the other hand, I see not much problem in straightaway saying for example that "we" do not support any ideology or religion that promotes, protects, and approves of slavery and sex-slavery or rape of captive women and automatic annulment of their marriages if they were married at the time of capture. Any religion that makes this an inalienable part of its divinely revealed ordinances, is completely against all Hindu ethics, values, and cannot be part of the "Hindu" or the Bharatyia nation.


In fact all references to such slavery and right-hand possessions need to be deleted from any religious books used in India. Any book found which condones such practices should automatically be burned. It is up to each and every community to distribute books and material which do not include such passages, otherwise the religious institution would be found at fault and the publisher would have to pay penalties.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 09 Feb 2013 19:31

brihaspati wrote:I think we should and must recognize certain core Vedic rituals as a must : that which relates to birth, to start of literacy+education, start-of-spiritual life through upanayan, marriage [the vedic mutual obligations contract], and funerary ritual. There should also be mass celebrations of those practices that observe seasons, and astronomical events - including those like the spring festival, or the sowing and harvesting festivals, the festival of lights, and on the other end those like the Kumbh. Whether we build grand temples or not - we must repossess our geographically and geologically significant "teerthas", and if it comes to push to shove, yes if necessary we must "build" on those spots to remind future generations.


IMHO 7 foundation stones for Bharatiyas should be -

  1. Bharatiya/Hindu - Civilizational Identification - Thorough Study of our Pre-Islamic History and our Resistance to Mlecchas, Love for Bharat, Kshatriyata

  2. Samskaras - Religious Allegiance - Practice of Religious Rituals and Festivals, Bhakti

  3. Dharma - Philosophical Enlightenment - Deep Learning of our Scriptures, Exploring new ways to Truth

  4. Sanskrit - Link and Operating System Language

  5. Sanskriti - Cultural Immersion - Immersion in Bharatiya Music, Dance, Art, Architecture, Interior Decoration, Cuisine, Fashion, Aesthetics

  6. Parampara - Social Traditions - Respect for Gurus, Elders, Generational Continuity, Family

  7. Vidya, Artha, Karma - This-Worldly Knowledge, Innovation, Sciences, etc.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 09 Feb 2013 20:08

harbans wrote:
1) Truth - lā ʾilāha ʾillā l-Lāh, Muḥammadun rasūlu l-Lāh


Rajesh Ji, the nothing you say has any validity. Not one word you have ever written here ever. Simply because then every word can be falsified from it's very basic context. Truth: 'That which is true or in accordance with fact or reality' cannot be turned into "illah bullah whatever". When the Indian constitution gives context free terms Secularism and Socialism that does not mean Islamic secularism.

harbans ji,

exactly every word can be falsified and misunderstood or understood in multiple ways, if YOU FAIL TO FIX A CONTEXT TO IT. That is the point.

Since you wish to use "value labels" without context in a universalistic way, that is what happens, they don't have context and can be used, abused, misused in any possible way.

harbans wrote:When Ramay gives his school kid idea of Bharatiya core like territorial integrity, economic integrity, hindu ritual every morning at GoI offices and Institutions..except for the ritual nothing really is unique to the bharatiya civilization. So one can have a Bharat that is all that extends to cambodia and tibet whatever one wet dreams, but if it does not value Truth, has no compassion to it's citizenry, has none of the values that i posted, then that Bharat deserves destruction.

harbans ji,

you are acting here as if you are the sole theykedaar of "Truth". Everybody here values "Truth" but "Truth" as understood in a Dharmic way and each pursues it in his or her own way. Nobody needs to be condescendingly lectured by anybody on "values".

What people here don't agree on with you is not about values but rather your childish "universalist" ideas of "moral positivism" as Rudradev ji put it.

harbans wrote:In the days or weeks..you will realize how basically wrong you are. But one thing i will say go ahead and try defining yourself what Values would you the Bharat of your vision to reflect?


Sigh! If you can't make a cogent argument, then you fall back on "you will see in the days and weeks how wrong you are!" Do you think people have not thought about these issues and looked at them from multiple angles?

harbans wrote:Instead asking me, which i have answered, why don't you attempt the answer yourself. In fact i will ask others too reflect and attempt what Institutional values they desire to see in their version of Bharat.


harbans ji,
if you are the one advocating inclusion of "values" into the Constitution, isn't it natural that one would ask you which values and why! You have not answered. You just did a copy-paste and did not go into any of your suggestions.

If you care to read, you will also find my proposals. "Bharat & Women" is one thread.

My approach is to do a Poorva Paksha of Islam, and find out principles, memes, freedoms which differentiate us, which are absolutely integral to Islam, but against Dharma, and to make a stand on them.

  1. Differences: Direct Transceivers
  2. Differences: Sitting for the Exam
  3. Differences: Saving the Native
  4. Differences: Clerical Power

It is by no means comprehensive, but it is the direction I am taking.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 20:35

Sigh! If you can't make a cogent argument, then you fall back on "you will see in the days and weeks how wrong you are!"


There is no argument here Rajesh ji, i am sure you will realize soon. Whatever your vision of Bharatiya, the State will and should reflect the Lakshana's/ Values i stated. If it does not your model is deficient. There can be contest which values the State must reflect i agree, yet if it weans completely away from these values, i am certain all will agree the model is not worth it.

So for any or whatever model you provide, it will have to be seen ultimately what lakshana's are reflected as a result of the model. That is why i said 'in the days/ weeks you will see why i was right'. Nothing in it that my argument or premise is wrong.

That is why i said even a Akhand Bharat till Cambodia, Central Asia or wherever, that is all Hindu ritual, Vedic chants, follows Manu's laws etc yet is cruel, despotic, lacks compassion, has no patience and tolerance for criticism is useless. There is no escape i can offer from that assessment through the value prism, the time frame to realize that is up to you. :)

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RamaY » 09 Feb 2013 20:41

ShauryaT wrote:Ofcourse values are in context and the context is a set of laws or a dharma shastra for our times. EVERY set of our law books contained values within them in spades, so what is the issue here? Is Harbans claiming that values do not have context? The way I read him is he is propagating a set of values for our times, for our nation and that too largely dharmic values. It is Indian systems that not only encoded values but behaviors and orders and detail instructions in various eras. I do not know, what is this big fight for? Do not know, why has reformation era german philosophers being quoted, who mostly got Indian systems wrong. Voltaire, Herder, Hegel, Schelling and Schopenhauer thought of India through a western prism. If western understanding has to be brought in then the Greece of Pythagoras, Plato and Plotinus has more in common with Hindu India than with Christian Europe.


ShauryaT garu,

As I can understand, Harbansji thinks that the values he listed have same MEANING & PURPOSE irrespective of their religious context. He thinks Hindu Truth = Islamic Truth = Christian Truth. He thinks that is the meaning of "Ekam Sat...." Upanishad statement. What he doesn't understand is the upanishad context != religious context.

Pakistan is the best example of Harban's world view when one thinks they can build another Bharat when they take out Hindu context out of it. An Islamic/Christian India cannot and will not aspire to be a superpower or even independent as its civilizational centers lie outside India. Even if entire earth is made a single rastra entity, even then a Hindu Viswam != Islamic Ummah. A Muslim India will be a perpetual slave of Desert Arabia like Pakistan is, to the extent that it cannot even save its Buddhist or Hindu cultural heritage.

Australia is the best example of the final shape of a Christian India. It cannot be an independent power in any realm (civilizational, cultural, political, economic and military). It will be a perpetual slave of the real Christian empire elsewhere.

Harbans ji is under the spell of atheist humanism world view which is a 24ct BS spread by Christian Sufis before they can inject next level of Christianity into the world consciousness.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 20:48

He thinks Hindu Truth = Islamic Truth = Christian Truth. He thinks that is the meaning of "Ekam Sat...." Upanishad statement. What he doesn't understand is the upanishad context != religious context.


Rubbish understanding. I have read the major upanishads since early 80's. I hardly need your qualification to tell me what Ekam Sat means or does not mean.
Harbans ji is under the spell of atheist humanism world view which is a 24ct BS spread by Christian Sufis before they can inject next level of Christianity into the world consciousness.


Rubbish again coming from a person that lives, eats, sends his children to school in a setup run by Christian sufi's and possibly has green cards to boot for entire family...that is sheer hypocrisy to accuse me of the above.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 09 Feb 2013 20:54

harbans wrote:
Sigh! If you can't make a cogent argument, then you fall back on "you will see in the days and weeks how wrong you are!"


There is no argument here Rajesh ji, i am sure you will realize soon. {Sigh!} Whatever your vision of Bharatiya, the State will and should reflect the Lakshana's/ Values i stated. If it does not your model is deficient. There can be contest which values the State must reflect i agree, yet if it weans completely away from these values, i am certain all will agree the model is not worth it.

So for any or whatever model you provide, it will have to be seen ultimately what lakshana's are reflected as a result of the model. That is why i said 'in the days/ weeks you will see why i was right'. Nothing in it that my argument or premise is wrong.


Which "values/lakshana" did you "state" - the one's you copy-pasted and did not even bother to define, or show their usefulness, necessity, forget sufficiency?

What do those values bring to the table? You don't think you should bother explaining that?

harbans wrote:That is why i said even a Akhand Bharat till Cambodia, Central Asia or wherever, that is all Hindu ritual, Vedic chants, follows Manu's laws etc yet is cruel, despotic, lacks compassion, has no patience and tolerance for criticism is useless. There is no escape i can offer from that assessment through the value prism, the time frame to realize that is up to you. :)


Why would it be cruel, despotic and would lack compassion? From where comes this assumption? What "value prism"?

Have you read the Constitution provisions? Are the "values" you talk about not there?

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby devesh » 09 Feb 2013 20:58

Harbans ji,

what is your objective in this discussion? you have descended to personal insults and name-calling.
your "Case 1" long ago was like a tube-light moment for me, but since then it's hard to exactly figure what you are arguing for.

so what values should we have in our constitution? why don't you start listing them?
you should list out the exact specific values/policies that you want in the constitution and then we can debate and refine them.
otherwise, we are just beating around the bush of imagined philosophical constructs. let's get to the specifics.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 09 Feb 2013 21:02

Person A: I'm sitting on the moral high horse of values.

Person B: Which Horse? I don't see any horse?

Person A: You don't like Moral High Horses, you are against values, that is why you don't see it!

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 09 Feb 2013 21:10

Continuing from "Indian Interests" Thread

harbans wrote:
So? Will you not quote Darwin's theory of Evolution, in an argument against Creationism? Will you prefer to let Creationist lies go unchallenged, just because Darwin was a Westerner?


Sure i will. But it's you who are peddling Western arguments against Dharma Lakshana's. Not me. You have not as yet noticed that have you? In that post all you did is gloat how Westerners have debunked Dharma lakshana's.


You masqueraded context-free "values" as Dharma Lakshanas, terming them universalist in understanding and application, so it is natural that one would quote sources who have tried this earlier but failed.

What was Dharmic about your Lakshanas other than the labels? Did you provide or accept any "Dharmic context"?

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 21:16

Ofcourse values are in context and the context is a set of laws or a dharma shastra for our times. EVERY set of our law books contained values within them in spades, so what is the issue here? Is Harbans claiming that values do not have context? The way I read him is he is propagating a set of values for our times, for our nation and that too largely dharmic values.


Shaurya Ji, for a long time i was trying to be inclusive and try and put the foundations of a Dharmic state. As within the HIndu fold because of the immense differences, sampradayas etc along with the fact that other Dharmic religions don't want to be classified as Hindu, i felt the need to find commonality. That is why i raised the 10 values/ DHarma lakshana's taken straight off the BG and other Dharmic texts that find common cause with all Dharmic relgions. My point was the State and it's institutions should reflect these qualities in it's dealings.

When i talk about a Dharmic Rashtra, some want not that but an exclusively Hindu Rashtra. When i mentioned values/ lakshana's they want it subservient to the Hindu cause. I opposed that. So the khujli.

When i tried to give an example to prove why subservience of these values to some Ism (Mlecha demand for 3 girls to preserve a temple) i found some ready to provide 3 girls in exchange to keep the temple. I.e they are ready to sacrifice a key value in exchange for keeping a temple. It was even immaterial to them that Ram fought and sacrifice 1000's of men for the honor of a single woman.

Ultimately i am attempting to tell that irrespective of whatever template of a Bharatiya/ Hindutva state one draws, if the state employs secret services to murder people that don';t follow HIndu ritual, puts falsehood to preserve the Hindu rashtra, is not compassionate to it's citizenry it too deserves destruction. Also whatever vision/ template they draw, the State and it's governance will have to be looked through the prism of these values. They are the template that determines how the governance is. Rest all is maya. To push the Hindu agenda alone they are calling these Dharma lakshanas as Christian sufi'ism. Talk about handing credit on a platter.. :D

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 21:21

so what values should we have in our constitution? why don't you start listing them?
you should list out the exact specific values/policies that you want in the constitution and then we can debate and refine them.


Devesh ji, i listed them and others have listed them a dozen times.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 09 Feb 2013 21:22

harbans wrote:for a long time i was trying to be inclusive and try and put the foundations of a Dharmic state. As within the HIndu fold because of the immense differences, sampradayas etc along with the fact that other Dharmic religions don't want to be classified as Hindu, i felt the need to find commonality. That is why i raised the 10 values/ DHarma lakshana's taken straight off the BG and other Dharmic texts that find common cause with all Dharmic relgions. My point was the State and it's institutions should reflect these qualities in it's dealings.


You were not trying to find just commonality between Dharmic religions but you're rather trying to find commonality between Dharmic traditions and Christianity and claiming there is nothing Dharmic about the (Dharmic) values, as these are universal values and Christians understand them in the same manner!

Also you were claiming that these cannot be understood by Islamics differently!
Last edited by RajeshA on 09 Feb 2013 21:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 09 Feb 2013 21:23

harbans wrote:
so what values should we have in our constitution? why don't you start listing them?
you should list out the exact specific values/policies that you want in the constitution and then we can debate and refine them.


Devesh ji, i listed them and others have listed them a dozen times.

With no context, definitions, or analysis of usefulness, necessity or sufficiency!

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 21:23

You masqueraded context-free "values" as Dharma Lakshanas, terming them universalist in understanding and application


I have been talking about a Dharmic state opposed to a Hindu state for long. The first basic is do you accept that a State has to reflect on these Dharma lakshana's. If you don't what is the point of even arguing about context or no context.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 21:28

With no context, definitions, or analysis of usefulness, necessity or sufficiency!


Rajesh Ji if you think these are useless, why bother asking about the context?

If you think they are useful, you can add whatever context you want and enhance upon it. I don't prevent you from giving what context you want do i?

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 09 Feb 2013 21:33

harbans wrote:
You masqueraded context-free "values" as Dharma Lakshanas, terming them universalist in understanding and application


I have been talking about a Dharmic state opposed to a Hindu state for long. The first basic is do you accept that a State has to reflect on these Dharma lakshana's. If you don't what is the point of even arguing about context or no context.


A Dharmic state has to identify the Dharmic traditions it is based upon, and the easiest way capturing this "set of traditions" is by simply saying

"traditions which originate in Bharatiya Civilization or are based on other traditions which have their origin in Bharatiya Civilization"!

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 09 Feb 2013 21:37

harbans wrote:
With no context, definitions, or analysis of usefulness, necessity or sufficiency!


Rajesh Ji if you think these are useless, why bother asking about the context?


You have not made the case for their usefulness, necessity or sufficiency as an inclusion in the Constitution? What you did was non-serious and arbitrary - a copy-paste of a list and zero elaboration on it!

How can you advocate "values" when you don't elaborate which "values" and why? In fact they may already be in the Constitution, and still may not have helped the cause of India!

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 21:48

This was posted by me on 23rd Jan 11:28.
The BJP and Hindutva parties can never unite under a Hindu banner, It will always be meaningless to most Indians or non (Xtian, Muslim and Jew). What is more meaningful to most Indians is value based interpretation of Dharma. Many seers interpreted it a millenia ago wrt society then and laid out Dharmashastra's. While we cannot go by them today as they are, we can certainly agree to many values systems that most citizens in this country agree to and find common ground. Those fundamental value systems enshrined in Dharmic values remains firm and untainted. They cannot be tainted by either INC or BJP or Commie antics.

The big elephant in he room that everyone seems to give the short stick is Dharmic value systems and not Hinduism or Secularism. A lot of confusion and junk isms and their votaries in good faith of course will see sunset without a fig of a fight. After all who wants to oppose a simple value system like say Truth that comes first in the constitutional preamble. Satyameva Jayate should not be a slogan. It should be made the primary in the preamble. We would instantly be a Dharmic state by doing so. After all Truth=God. Massive confusion in society is eliminated by that simple one liner. Simply because instead of looking at events, issues through the prism of Isms, secularism, socialism that courts, institutions, commissions in India look through all the time and consequently giving idiotic judgements and conclusions that enrage the common man, the issue will be dealt with directly wrt no ideology but the plain truth in perspective. If lacking in arriving at the truth, mechanisms will be put in place to arrive at it, rather than mechanisms to uphold Isms like secularism etc rather than the simple truth.

The rise of India will not coincide with the rise of INC or fall of it, neither will it coincide with the rise of BJP or Modi or the AAP. It will only coincide with our investment in upholding those Dharmic value systems. The faster we realize that, the faster we make progress and stem the confusion in polity.


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5370&start=4760

Sounds Christian Sufi right? :D

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 21:51

A Dharmic state has to identify the Dharmic traditions it is based upon, and the easiest way capturing this "set of traditions" is by simply saying

"traditions which originate in Bharatiya Civilization or are based on other traditions which have their origin in Bharatiya Civilization"
!


One such State in ancient Bharat was run by a very learned King. The King had a fabulous intellect, was well versed in the Veda's. Yet he was destroyed. Heard of Ravan Raj? :)

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 21:55

How can you advocate "values" when you don't elaborate which "values" and why? In fact they may already be in the Constitution, and still may not have helped the cause of India!


I actually did over several posts. But you were too busy pushing Hindutva i guess that you did not notice. I also asked these values be made nodal, pivotal so the State Institutions reflect those values to their citizens. But then you were too busy..

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 09 Feb 2013 22:02

IMHO

Definition of Hindu - Any ethnic Indian who follows the traditions originating in the Indian Subcontinent.

Definition of Hindutva - Pride in identification with this Hindu identity

Definition of Hindu-ism - The traditions that Indians follow, traditions which originated in the Indian Subcontinent.


There are some who specify a particular tradition and receive their identity from that tradition, some of them considering their identity outside the overarching Hindu identity, but that is a decision for that community, but it does not change the definition as such. Hindu-ism is inclusive of all traditions which have originated in the Indian Subcontinent or organically evolved from those which have originated here.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 09 Feb 2013 22:03

harbans wrote:
How can you advocate "values" when you don't elaborate which "values" and why? In fact they may already be in the Constitution, and still may not have helped the cause of India!


I actually did over several posts. But you were too busy pushing Hindutva i guess that you did not notice. I also asked these values be made nodal, pivotal so the State Institutions reflect those values to their citizens. But then you were too busy..


Perhaps you can provide links to where you elaborated specific "values"!

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RajeshA » 09 Feb 2013 22:05

harbans wrote:
A Dharmic state has to identify the Dharmic traditions it is based upon, and the easiest way capturing this "set of traditions" is by simply saying

"traditions which originate in Bharatiya Civilization or are based on other traditions which have their origin in Bharatiya Civilization"
!


One such State in ancient Bharat was run by a very learned King. The King had a fabulous intellect, was well versed in the Veda's. Yet he was destroyed. Heard of Ravan Raj? :)


And didn't that Bharat take him down because he did not behave properly? Did society not know that his conduct was improper? Did they need a Constitution to determine that? Wasn't the corrective capacity built in into that Bharat?
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RamaY » 09 Feb 2013 22:26

harbans wrote:Rubbish understanding. I have read the major upanishads since early 80's. I hardly need your qualification to tell me what Ekam Sat means or does not mean.

Rubbish again coming from a person that lives, eats, sends his children to school in a setup run by Christian sufi's and possibly has green cards to boot for entire family...that is sheer hypocrisy to accuse me of the above.


You, Zakir Nayak, Mullah Biraders, EvanJihadi Joseph Abraham, Kanchi Paramacharya, Kancha Ailaiyiah, Arundhoti Roy, Barkha Dutt and even narrow-minded RamaY all read upanishads. But they ended up with different understandings and perspectives. What does it say? Even a scripture that talks about unmanifest, Nirguna Brahmana can be interpreted and perceived in many different ways when it is comprehended by manifest egos.

Similarly your code of conduct will be interpreted in many different ways by individuals based on their faith, ego, role/responsibility and more than anything time and space (Kaala, desa). The constitution of India became constipation of India because of the secular interpretation of the same.

I agree that I am biased due to the fact that I am living in Christian Sufi lands. But you want to or are trying to bring these very Christian and Islamic Sufis under your value-umbrella. So what is your Khulji?

Muhammed Ali Jinnah and Iqbal tried to sell pre-1947 Bharat same cool aid saying citizens of all faiths will have same rights in Pakistan. We know how it ended up.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RamaY » 09 Feb 2013 22:34

Harbans,

Since you like pointed questions how do you solve Kasi, Ayodhya, Mathura issues?

1. Secular logic - since all religions are equal, we cannot allow symbols/memories of one religious vandalizing another religions symbol. So these places must be returned to Hindus.

2. Satya - if these places were once Hindu religious places then they should be Hindu religious places, unless those Hindus voluntarily convert to another faith and take those places along with them.

3. Science - if one can convincingly prove that these mosques are built on top of destroyed Hindu temples then they should be returned to hindus.

How many of your dharmic Muslims accept your own verdict and can fight against their other religious conterparts for this Satya?

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 22:42

The constitution of India became constipation of India because of the secular interpretation of the same.


Secular is in the Preamble of the Constitution. NO interpretation is required. It is an intentionally declared secular state. All kids in India know that. All GoI institutions and Govt machinery try and ensure that minorities get a fair deal. Sometimes they get too enthusiastic and go overboard.

Ramay you have made your point. India is. should be Hindu, Hindu, Hindu, Hindu, Hindu, Hindu. Hindu India should conquer all surrounding nations. You hate Muslims and Xtians. You hate Secular India. Do you have any other point to make apart from this framework?

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RamaY » 09 Feb 2013 22:51

:)

If you are so frustrated to convince me; who is willing to listen to you, respond with his perspectives and open for discussion; then how do you plan to bring billions of varried perspectives and people under one umbrella? By a divine sanction and prophethood? :rotfl:

Did you ask your family members, friends etc about their opinions or just commanded them to become dharmic and assumed they did?

Like I said before, I am confident enough to say whom/what I hate. You don't have to worry about me hiding my true intentions. A Christian at the most can become a (state approved and not a real) saint and a Muslim at the most can become a best devotee/bhakta. Only a Hindu can become a devata and even God-conscious Brahmana himself.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 09 Feb 2013 23:15

If you are so frustrated to convince me; who is willing to listen to you, respond with his perspectives and open for discussion; then how do you plan to bring billions of varried perspectives and people under one umbrella? By a divine sanction and prophethood?


Ramay you are not open to discussion at all. You have already a made up mind. I am least interested in convincing you. You will remain in Christian lands forever along with your family i am certain. After all you send 20k USD each year back is better than an ITVity guy here that makes 10L/annum, right?

So what happened to RMs drsishti shristi 'Clear classic case of Prophethood' eh? :D

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RamaY » 09 Feb 2013 23:32

It doesn't matter if it is Muhammed or RM or Harbans. Drishti Srishti vada applies to any such proposition.

The difference is whether they Demand others to "believe" in their Drishti or else they will be branded non-believers.

Don't compare yourself with poor RM. At this point you belong to Muhammed verity.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby RamaY » 09 Feb 2013 23:49

ShauryaT garu

I am in two minds though, if values need encoding and legislation in our times. I am split on this aspect. It is far more important to ensure that society lives by these values than its legislation. If legislation is the best way to achieve it, so be it. There is something to be said for the idea of a "soft constitution". These are largely values that society adheres to (yes, with varying contexts) but are not necessarily legislated. E.G: Government of, for and by the people is a sworn value system of the US - not legislated as such anywhere.


Even today everyone is living their version of dharma (even the 10 codes that Harbans mentioned) as per their context, irrespective of Dharma/secularism/Islam in the preamble. We are already in Jennat.

Then why the need for any change? Then why only Hinduism is being targeted, why not Islam/Christianity in India?

Unless the constitution gives a specific context and empowers the rashtra to enforce it there will be no change in India's situation.

The current construction being secular gives a soft-Christian context. Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh are what happens when you give Islamic context... And so on.

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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby Prem » 10 Feb 2013 00:37

Atri wrote:
RajeshA wrote:[9) Equality - All (male) Muslims are "equal" in front of Allahote] :rotfl: :rotfl:

bravo!!!


This one is wrong . Not all Males pass the test to be best of the pests to enjoy Blue fest. Jannat got filled with 40K Arabs in 6th Century . Rest are just peeking through small Morriis like in Dostum Express Containers and hoping that Gatekeeper Holding the Key will open the Darwaza again. These are ignorant Jahil bhuddus who dont know the Miscreant Gatekeeper .
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 10 Feb 2013 00:40

At this point you belong to Muhammed verity.


Don't go too far on your personal hate froth. You've accused me of Xtian Sufi bias and now Islamic bias..while you yourself sit in under the constitutional powers of a Xtian Sufi state that you hate so much. And that is not irony, it is hypocrisy. So are you a Xtian Sufi state citizen?
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Re: The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

Postby harbans » 10 Feb 2013 00:51

Did they need a Constitution to determine that? Wasn't the corrective capacity built in into that Bharat?


There was a nice article on the Kings/ Rajahs of India. There were people (ministers) who put there hands as spittoons, sycophants who praised the Rajahs farts and so on. No Bharat never had any automatic inbuilt self check mechanism. It could not get off the Islamic yoke for 1400 years. Rulers could not cooperate with each other to ward off the invaders. India had it's fair share of despotic native rulers and kings. That is why it is important to tell the Governing elite what their institutions/ behaviour must reflect. That is why i insisted these values/ lakshana's must be nodal and the State must reflect them.


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