AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 12 Mar 2013 11:24

The current regime in India has brought us much disgrace. This is still another chapter, and everything stinks strongly of Treason!

I am creating this thread, because I think this is a much bigger scandal than Bofors ever was, for this is not only a case of Corruption but High Treason as the Italian Marines were let go!

I know it is much work, but would request either the moderators or the posters to shift the posts which deal with these two issues from the "India-EU News & Analysis" and "Two-G (2G) Spectrum Scam Tapes and follow-up" Threads here

rgsrini

rgsrini wrote:Supreme Court permits Italian naval guards to go to Italy to cast vote
The Supreme Court today permitted two Italian naval guards, accused of shooting dead two Indian fishermen off the coast of Kerala, to travel to their country to cast vote in the upcoming elections there.
...
The bench also comprising Justices A R Dave and Vikramajit Sen allowed the plea of the two marines and the Italian government to allow them to travel for four weeks to Italy.
Travel to Italy to vote? and that too 4 weeks? What is going on? Has such latitude been shown to any murderers in any part of the world, post colonial days? Even in Italy, I suspect if they will be treated so well. They are being treated as if they are ambassadors from Italy. Everything Italian has been bad news for India in the last 3 decades...

RajeshA

RajeshA wrote:Farnesina: Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Italy

General Election 24-25 February 2013

POSTAL VOTING FOR ITALIAN CITIZENS LIVING ABROAD
Voting is a right enshrined in the Italian Constitution. Under Law 459 of 27 December 2001, Italian citizens living abroad and enrolled in the voting register of the foreign constituency are entitled to vote by post. To this end, we recommend that citizens check their details, including their address, at their consulate, and make any amendments that may be necessary.
For exact details please check here. The page can be translated through Google Translation Service in Chrome.

There is info for those in military service.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO NEED FOR THESE ITALIAN MARINES TO RETURN TO ITALY FOR VOTING!

chanakyaa

chanakyaa wrote:
ABSOLUTELY NO NEED FOR THESE ITALIAN MARINES TO RETURN TO ITALY FOR VOTING!
A beautiful plot by the GoI to fool the aam aadmi. As soon as the italian citizens land in own their country, the Indian authorities who will join them have no authority or jurisdiction to touch them, let along make them keep their promise of coming back. GoI knows this, VERY WELL. 4 weeks after their departure a news will popoup, suggesting Indian authorities did everything possible to bring them back but Italians did not co-operate so nothing can be done. Pranab Mokaji will say that we have lodged this ISSUE with Italians. British were long gone, but slavery continued.....All I can do is blame myself for letting the country in the hands of thugs and not taking charge on my own...it hurts

Nikhil T

Nikhil T wrote:I'm outraged but not surprised. If we take a deeper look into the timeline of events, we can decipher this GoI sham.

Dec 21: GoI gives rare exemption to Marines after which court allows them to go to Italy for Christmas.

Dec 21: Salman Khurshid says "If the court in its wisdom has relaxed some conditions then it is entirely a matter between the court and the petition?? We must respect the court judgment". No mention of GoI exemption that allowed the Court to release the marines.

Jan 18: The Supreme Court orders that the marines be shifted from Kerala to Delhi, and be under the 'custody' of the Supreme Court till the Central Govt constitutes the special court. The Supreme Court in its judgement, ordered that a special court be setup after consultations with the Chief Justice of India, to try the two marines in accordance with Indian maritime laws and UNCLOS 1982.

Feb 12: AugustaWestland CEO arrested. Details of bribery in Indian deal start coming out.

Feb 16-18: No cooperation from Italian investigators to MoD investigation team in Italy.

Feb 23: No progress on setting up a special court. A bench of Chief Justice Altamas Kabir expressed displeasure over the failure of the government to set up a special court in pursuance of its Jan 18 directions to try two marines. Taking exception that nothing had been done in last one month since the apex court passed its direction to set up the special court, Chief Justice said that had the court been set up, the trial in the case would have been over.

Mar 11: Italy refuses to send Marines back.

Now, doesn't this smell of a deal where Italy prevents the AugustaWestland probe from throwing up names and INC promising to drag feet on the Marines case in India? Who wants a defense scandal a year before General Elections?

ramana

ramana wrote:
Sagar G wrote:Fishermen's killing: Our naval guards will not return to India, Italy says

ROME: The two Italian naval guards charged in India with killing two fishermen while on anti-piracy duty will not return from a special home visit granted to allow them to vote in last month's general election, the Italian foreign ministry said on Monday.

The ministry said that India had not responded to Italian requests to seek a diplomatic solution to the case and there was now a formal dispute between the two countries over the terms of the United Nations Convention of the Law of the Sea.

"Italy has informed the Indian government that, given the formal initiation of an international dispute between the two states, the naval guards Massimiliano Latorre and Salvatore Girone will not return to India at the end of their home leave."
This is pro quid quo for the Chopper scam bribes. India returns the Italian murderers and Italy does not release any more chopper scam details that indict the UPA bribe takers.

And UPA/GOI will pretend to be injured party with Indian media singing along.

Rajput · Post by **Rajput** » 12 Mar 2013 11:33

This shows how little the rest of the world cares about India and Indians. "India Shining"?!? My ass!

Even more funnily, none of the major newspapers are treating this latest development with any surprise. "Chalta hai", right? Who cares that 2 of your fellow citizens were murdered in cold blood by trigger-happy "marines" from some has-been nation? The killers walked free, while the victims' families beat their chests and cry. The short, dark, poor people's lives are worth much less than the tall, fair Italians, right? What a joke.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 12 Mar 2013 12:04

Both parties(marines and the fishermen) are catholic. They've already settled it with blood money.

Let kerala worry about it. Indian state should not interfere

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 12 Mar 2013 12:15

One word Banana * Supa power !
I would scrap every arms deal with Italy give them the pain where it hits the most. Money

Plus take them to international criminal court tribunal. Plus force Interpol to have a red alert notice worst case hire Italian mafioso and give country men the justice they deserve.
If nothing is possible I would go to Ganges and take a permanent dip because there is not a trace of balls left in anyone at top in this great nation.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 12 Mar 2013 12:17

nvishal wrote:Both parties(marines and the fishermen) are catholic. They've already settled it with blood money.

If my memory serves right NO blood money has been paid yet. There was such a plan at the initial days, with padres etc. actively seen encouraging the fisherfolk to get the money. But the high politicisation of the issue stopped the whole thing. A case was filed, and the court said that bloody money stuff will not work out here.

Let kerala worry about it. Indian state should not interfere

Kerala would just wash their hands off by saying the courts pulled the case away from Kerala. The commies would use this to further destruct public property (only in Kerala). And if things go really well the fisherfolk may get the compensation money wire-transfered (Christian brothers sort it out, all by themselves

).

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 12 Mar 2013 12:23

Italy asks its troops to be ready for strong unhappiness by India

“We have ordered millions of earplugs, oil, cleaning buds, dark glasses, chewing gum, and similar artillery to deal with the massive verbal onslaught that we expect India to unleash upon us,” Giampaolo di Paola, the Defense Minister of Italy revealed.
....
“Half of our worries were taken care of as we don’t play cricket,” an official in the Foreign Ministry of Italy told

Perhaps a black joke. But this report sums up the entire Indian mentality (Bollywood and cricket, and no backbone to think beyond this).

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 12 Mar 2013 12:23

@Sachin

Yes, the issue has been settled by both parties through non-monetary benefits. Forget about it. If kerala wants to do something about it then let them pursue or whatever. Indian state should stay out of this.

Sachin wrote:the fisherfolk may get the compensation money wire-transfered (Christian brothers sort it out, all by themselves ).

let them

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 12 Mar 2013 12:28

IMO, if we are to keep even the slightest shred of self respect over this issue, we will need to develop a concerted retaliatory response where anything and everything goes short of actual physical confrontation (i.e. war).

So I am creating a list of actions that should be taken by GOI and the common man. This is neither comprehensive nor definitive but just a start. Feel free to add, or remove:

1. Military: As the poster above suggests, scrap every arms deal with Italy that is in the pipeline.
2. Military: Ban all Italian arms firms, and all firms that have a strong Italian connection (e.g. shareholding)
3. Business: Put a stop to all proposed investments by all Italian firms, or firms with a strong Italian connection (shareholding)
4. Diplomatic: Downgrade diplomatic relations with Italy; do away with them altogether, if needed.
5. Common man: Create a list of all Italian sourced products and stop buying them, wherever you are (India, US etc). Make sure you tell the respective firms why you will no longer buy their product.
6. Political/ Common man: Just vote these Congress motherlovers out of power, then ensure an enquiry into why this cluster*ck happened.

What else?

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 12 Mar 2013 12:30

I visit BRF daily, though don't post much. Just wanted to express my utter disgust at what GOI has done - let the Italians get away with
murder (literally), so that the Copter scam details are buried permanently.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 12 Mar 2013 12:36

Baikul Ji, we cannot develop any response now. The high ground has been lost yesterday at Tihar. The Italians have every right not to send their marines to India for trial or sentencing after what happened yesterday. I hope the teeming hordes that were joyous with glee yesterday do realize the implications of the act. There is no high ground from which one can now take any action against the marines.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 12 Mar 2013 12:41

Baikul wrote:IMO, if we are to keep even the slightest shred of self respect over this issue, we will need to develop a concerted retaliatory response where anything and everything goes short of actual physical confrontation (i.e. war).

So I am creating a list of actions that should be taken by GOI and the common man. This is neither comprehensive nor definitive but just a start. Feel free to add, or remove:

1. Military: As the poster above suggests, scrap every arms deal with Italy that is in the pipeline.
2. Military: Ban all Italian arms firms, and all firms that have a strong Italian connection (e.g. shareholding)
3. Business: Put a stop to all proposed investments by all Italian firms, or firms with a strong Italian connection (shareholding)
4. Diplomatic: Downgrade diplomatic relations with Italy; do away with them altogether, if needed.
5. Common man: Create a list of all Italian sourced products and stop buying them, wherever you are (India, US etc). Make sure you tell the respective firms why you will no longer buy their product.
6. Political/ Common man: Just vote these Congress motherlovers out of power, then ensure an enquiry into why this cluster*ck happened.

What else?

The following can be done quite easily, if GOI has the b%@@!

1. Revoke the visa's of Italian expats working in India. (until security clearance is given by RAW/IB/NIA etc)
2. No Indian's should be allowed to visit Italy for tourism (tourism is about the only Industry in Italy that is still thriving).
3. Punitive import tariff's on Italian products. (or just say they don't meet our quality standards)
4. Arrest two Italian embassy staff /high profile corporate visitors for spying. CBI should be able to come up with tons of
evidence. (filled with remorse, one can commit suicide in Tihar)!

rkirankr · Post by **rkirankr** » 12 Mar 2013 13:11

<crib On>
The principal opposition party seems to be very quiet.
May be losing their principles.

The Indian Govt does not care for life, property and honour of Indians. This is known from many events in the past. Why the Rhona dhona now
CEO of the company responsible for Bhopal gas tragedy let go
Saurabh Kalia not avenged (even the nationalist party did not make an attempt)
Fishermen and their boats are fired at by puny Srilankan Navy and we do not do anything. So forget about taking on italian Navy's marines.
Kashmir Pandits
and many more

Some one said boycotting italian products. Haha you will get all sorts of wimpy arguments coated with intellectual jargons.
You see no one cares for common Indians. Topping that list is Indians themselves. I for one have been planning to buy a car. Linea and punto were in my list of probables . Now I will not buy them, they are off my list , and any other car which Italy comes up with as the best of the best car in India. Also all other italian products. Not that it matters to the manufacturers or italy
This is my way of paying respects to the fisherman.
However I know many here will laugh at this. But atleast I am showing my chappal at the italians. The least a mango Ram can do(Oh I did not say mango abdul, I mentioned Ram, may be I am communal)

<Crib off>

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 12 Mar 2013 13:14

Feel very disillusioned with desh today. Nothing more to say.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 Mar 2013 13:20

harbans wrote:Baikul Ji, we cannot develop any response now. The high ground has been lost yesterday at Tihar. The Italians have every right not to send their marines to India for trial or sentencing after what happened yesterday. I hope the teeming hordes that were joyous with glee yesterday do realize the implications of the act. There is no high ground from which one can now take any action against the marines.

harbans wrote:With'natural justice' being the flavor of the day, i don't blame the Italian marines not getting back to India now. So i hope those that look for short cuts do understand the implications of such cuts.

Nonsense, all prisons have "natural justice" of the sort talked about. Why bring Italian perfidy with India in it? If anything, being firangs, the Italians were likely to escape natural justice, heck any justice.

Why the eagerness to give a excuse for Italian perfidy?

It is precisely because of the tendency to use any and all Indian failing to get foreigners and anti Indians to walk all over us that we are in this situation. Blaming the victim here once more.

This is no different from Pervez "Kashmir is the root cause of terror" Musharraf statement and likes of such frankly.

I condemn the free pass being given to Italians in harshest possible terms.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 Mar 2013 13:25

rkirankr wrote:<crib On>
The principal opposition party seems to be very quiet.
May be losing their principles.

<Crib off>

Actually no, the channels were initially flashing BJPs strong criticism of handling of the situation. That seems to be taken off the air after a while. I am sure it will come back on some obscure web site later which I will share.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 12 Mar 2013 13:32

Dont agree with harbans PoV of moral high ground. If anything, the Marines were in the spot before the Delhi gang-rape took place. Conflating the two cases can only be called as superficial logic, which will not be bought on a psychoanalysts forum such as this one.

If anything, it just shows how the whole of Italy is speaking with one voice whereas there are a thousand different mumblings from the broken Indian de-establishment.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 12 Mar 2013 13:37

nvishal wrote:Yes, the issue has been settled by both parties through non-monetary benefits. Forget about it. If kerala wants to do something about it then let them pursue or whatever. Indian state should stay out of this.

The Kerala Govt. is not going to do any thing about this. Kerala Govt. any way is not representing an independent country, so even if it wants it cannot do any thing in this case. The Italians have hood winked India and its justice system her courts (which also includes judiciary in Kerala). The Italian embassy is not dealing with Kerala Govt at Thiruvananthapuram. They deal with the Central Govt @ India. So Indian state is at loss here.

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 12 Mar 2013 13:39

harbans wrote:Baikul Ji, we cannot develop any response now. The high ground has been lost yesterday at Tihar. The Italians have every right not to send their marines to India for trial or sentencing after what happened yesterday. I hope the teeming hordes that were joyous with glee yesterday do realize the implications of the act. There is no high ground from which one can now take any action against the marines.

Harbans ji, while I have agreed you on most other debates on BR, allow me to disagree on this one.

First of all, if I may say so, f*ck the high ground. What is needed is naked display of power - economic, political, diplomatic. Even if we fail, give the the Italians- and other nations that will surely try to do the same to us, if they aren't already- something to think about.

Second, if we do not take action, it will only show to the world that despite all the talk we are a nation of pushovers. I am no expert in international relations, but if we want to be taken more seriously on the world stage, this is the time to show it.

Third, if the Italians want to talk about what happened at Tihar, talk to them about their mafia having bought and sold every second politician in their country. Talk to them about their endemic corruption. Who the f*ck are they to tell us about our judicial system?

In short, do something, anything, and it will make a small but definite addition to our self image, self worth and the way we are perceived. Do nothing and the inaction may be publicly forgotten in a few days, but its consequences will be borne by our national psyche and persona going forward.

This is India Pakistan all over again. Don't be 'chanakyan', don't talk of covert solutions. Be overt, be crude. Even if it has a cost, we should go after the Italians in a way in the future every other son of a b!tch in the international arena understands the consequence. Because otherwise there will always be some other son of a b!tch who will surely try the same thing again, again and again.

This is a slap on our faces, but it is also a fantastic, once in a decade opportunity.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 12 Mar 2013 13:47

First of all, if I may say so, f*ck the high ground. What is needed is naked display of power - economic, political, diplomatic.

Naked display of power needs support. In a democratic country like India you'll find that support will wean towards an ideologically higher ground. If you lose it, you cannot get either of the economic, political or diplomatic backing one seeks. So the need for naked display of power here is just a wish. It does not help. Fascist regimes do display such propensity to power display based on low ideals. They have always lost were conquered in time. The italians will just turn around and say hey your prison systems are so unsafe that in such a high profile case in the prime prison with 3 others in the cell the guy commits suicide. What justice is delivered? How do you guarantee safety fore the marines? Can the GoI guarantee it? No they don't have the face to guarantee safety now with what happened.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 12 Mar 2013 13:49

@Sachin
You need to put two and two together and figure out if this situation is a co-incidence or deliberate

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 Mar 2013 13:50

harbans wrote:The italians will

Indians should not be speaking on Italians behalf and offering excuses for them.

That is the first step in ideological high ground -- to not let others offer bullshit for their crimes and get away with it.

How about you taking the needed moral high ground here Harbans-ji?

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 12 Mar 2013 13:56

harbans wrote:
First of all, if I may say so, f*ck the high ground. What is needed is naked display of power - economic, political, diplomatic.
Naked display of power needs support. In a democratic country like India you'll find that support will wean towards an ideologically higher ground. If you lose it, you cannot get either of the economic, political or diplomatic backing one seeks. So the need for naked display of power here is just a wish. It does not help. Fascist regimes do display such propensity to power display based on low ideals. They have always lost were conquered in time. The italians will just turn around and say hey your prison systems are so unsafe that in such a high profile case in the prime prison with 3 others in the cell the guy commits suicide. What justice is delivered? How do you guarantee safety fore the marines? Can the GoI guarantee it? No they don't have the face to guarantee safety now with what happened.

Harbansji, I appreciate your reasoning even if I don't agree with some of your assumptions.

The point is your approach leads to inaction, apathy, ultimately being rolled over. I can ask questions of every single course of action, to the point every action becomes questionable. In theory I have a list of questions and assumptions that could have stopped the 1971 war before it started.

My point is that in this case I feel it is better to act and anticipate the problems, or solve them as they come along- I am sure GOI can, if it has the appetite. Tihar jail a problem? No worries we will guarantee a seperate cell for them, heck a separate jail with regular access to their consulate. Now hand them over, please.

I totally understand that the reality of our government is likely to result in a supine approach. We are on a forum, talking and my words are just chatter. But a man can always wish for a different reality.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 12 Mar 2013 13:58

rkirankr wrote:<crib On>
The principal opposition party seems to be very quiet.
May be losing their principles.

The Indian Govt does not care for life, property and honour of Indians. This is known from many events in the past. Why the Rhona dhona now
CEO of the company responsible for Bhopal gas tragedy let go
Saurabh Kalia not avenged (even the nationalist party did not make an attempt)
Fishermen and their boats are fired at by puny Srilankan Navy and we do not do anything. So forget about taking on italian Navy's marines.
Kashmir Pandits
and many more

Some one said boycotting italian products. Haha you will get all sorts of wimpy arguments coated with intellectual jargons.
You see no one cares for common Indians. Topping that list is Indians themselves. I for one have been planning to buy a car. Linea and punto were in my list of probables . Now I will not buy them, they are off my list , and any other car which Italy comes up with as the best of the best car in India. Also all other italian products. Not that it matters to the manufacturers or italy
This is my way of paying respects to the fisherman.
However I know many here will laugh at this. But atleast I am showing my chappal at the italians. The least a mango Ram can do(Oh I did not say mango abdul, I mentioned Ram, may be I am communal)

<Crib off>

What respects to the fishermen, sirjee??

Their families have already forgiven the murderers ( in the "name of christ"), accepted blood money and compromised separately with the eyetalians, spitting in the face of the Indian law, publicly stated that they do not want any prosecution of the eyetalian marines.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 12 Mar 2013 13:58

nvishal wrote:Both parties(marines and the fishermen) are catholic. They've already settled it with blood money.

Let kerala worry about it. Indian state should not interfere

So Catholics should be encouraged to go to the Vatican for justice, rather than the Indian courts?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 Mar 2013 14:01

Chetak-ji --

I don't care about the fishermen acts of omission or commission, this is not about justice to them. Indian system is not based on individual's need for vengeance, the issue here is of rule of law. I would criticize the fishermen separately, but this is a clear case of destruction of concept of law and order in India, of the rule of law.

This is not acceptable because it is India and Indian courts, and the Indian system which has been spat upon. Even if they had killed a jihadi in India, this is still applicable.

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 12 Mar 2013 14:02

chetak wrote:.....
What respects to the fishermen, sirjee??

Their families have already forgiven the murderers ( in the "name of christ"), accepted blood money and compromised separately with the eyetalians, spitting in the face of the Indian law, publicly stated that they do not want any prosecution of the eyetalian marines.

Good point, but it doesn't matter IMO.

Because the opposing view would be that the law takes its course regardless of what the relatives of the victims say or want for blood money, we are not yet the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 12 Mar 2013 14:03

The point is your approach leads to inaction, apathy, ultimately being rolled over.

Baikul Ji, we rolled over when we abandoned our arms. Our arms in this case was a display effective implementation of state justice. We failed. Our roll over has already happened yesterday in the most high profile case in decades. We have no response rooted in telling Italians oh our Justice system is very fair and we will provide a fair trial and security. The Italians will laugh at us. Frothing will not help one bit here. We start to get our arms not to roll over when we realize the magnitude of the blunder we committed yesterday and rectify that. Else i am sorry there is now no case here at all.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 12 Mar 2013 14:04

Pranav wrote:
nvishal wrote:Both parties(marines and the fishermen) are catholic. They've already settled it with blood money.

Let kerala worry about it. Indian state should not interfere
So Catholics should be encouraged to go to the Vatican for justice, rather than the Indian courts?

You haven't been following this case from the beginning have you?

It's a done deal. It's over.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 12 Mar 2013 14:07

Harbans ji,

I am really surprised. I thought our disagreements were only in philosophical debates.

Why are you linking RS hanging with the italian marines? What moral high ground are you talking about? and who's? the country which was until recently being ruled by the scum like Berlusconi?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 Mar 2013 14:08

Harbans ji is trying a "Since India does not have enough toilets it should abandon all Mil programs" type of lahori logic.

Even before Italians can try and defend their perfidy, we have harbans ji trying very hard to give the Italians a clean chit. I would not be surprised if they pick up this crap and start peddling it. Look your own people think its fair to screw your country since you dont have your act together.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 Mar 2013 14:09

-- self delete OT --

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 12 Mar 2013 14:11

Baikul Ji, we rolled over when we abandoned our arms. Our arms in this case was a display effective implementation of state justice. We failed. Our roll over has already happened yesterday in the most high profile case in decades. We have no response rooted in telling Italians oh our Justice system is very fair and we will provide a fair trial and security. The Italians will laugh at us. Frothing will not help one bit here. We start to get our arms not to roll over when we realize the magnitude of the blunder we committed yesterday and rectify that. Else i am sorry there is now no case here at all.

harbans ji I could not disagree more vehemently. Why should we look to our failures in one case (Tihar) to pervert the course of justice in another?

Just because a murderer gets away scot free, should all murderers get away as well? Why not then give up on the other culprits in Tihar jail, especially the associates of the suicided one?

Is only the Indian system flawed? Italy is the poster child for corruption and organized criminal violence in the world. Who are they to point out a failure of our system? This, I feel should be our attitude.

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 12 Mar 2013 14:12

On another note:

This is the website of the Indian Italian Association.

http://www.indiaitaly.com/IndoItalianSite/index.aspx?

This is their email:

iicci@indiaitaly.com

I intend to write to them expressing my disgust and promising that I will actively not buy any Italian product until the marine duo are returned to face justice in an Indian court. That's about what I can do, and I'm doing it.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 Mar 2013 14:13

Baikul wrote: Who are they to point out a failure of our system? This, I feel should be our attitude.

The question is, why are Indians offering excuses on behalf of Italy when Italy herself has not spoken.

Why are some people falling over themselves to lambast India and give Italy a free chit -- much before Italians get into the act?

More Italian than Italian?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 12 Mar 2013 14:14

Why are you linking RS hanging with the italian marines? What moral high ground are you talking about? and who's?

Atri ji, i also realize why you could never understand my points in the other threads. Look at it this way:

Italians: Why should we get our marines tried in India?
Indians: The crime happened in India.
Italians: NO that was the first point of controversy. But importantly we think these people cannot have a fair trial.
Indians: Our Justice system is very fair to prisoners.
Italians: Oh and the undertrial in the most high profile case underway just hanged himself in a cell with 3 others..and you say your justice system is fair?
Indians: But, but..

What is your response? What is India's response?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 12 Mar 2013 14:14

Sanku wrote:Chetak-ji --

I don't care about the fishermen acts of omission or commission, this is not about justice to them. Indian system is not based on individual's need for vengeance, the issue here is of rule of law. I would criticize the fishermen separately, but this is a clear case of destruction of concept of law and order in India, of the rule of law.

This is not acceptable because it is India and Indian courts, and the Indian system which has been spat upon. Even if they had killed a jihadi in India, this is still applicable.

Sankuji,

It is the duty of all citizens to support the Indian state in such matters.

Especially in a state that that claims 100 % literacy, ignorance is no excuse.

You cannot claim individual rights in such a case and still demand that the state discharge it's responsibility towards you.

In short, an individual has no rights in a case involving another sovereign nation or at worst his rights are superseded by the rights of the state.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 12 Mar 2013 14:17

Who are they to point out a failure of our system?

It;s their marines that are under trial here. If our system is flawed they will point to it and do their utmost to get their marines out of the clutches of a system that 'suicides' people under trial. You may like it or not, but it does give them the excuse and they will use this.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Mar 2013 14:17

harbans wrote:
Why are you linking RS hanging with the italian marines? What moral high ground are you talking about? and who's?
Atri ji, i also realize why you could never understand my points in the other threads. Look at it this way:

Italians: Why should we get our marines tried in India?
Indians: The crime happened in India.
Italians: NO that was the first point of controversy. But importantly we think these people cannot have a fair trial.
Indians: Our Justice system is very fair to prisoners.
Italians: Oh and the undertrial in the most high profile case underway just hanged himself in a cell with 3 others..and you say your justice system is fair?
Indians: But, but..

What is your response? What is India's response?

My response to your illogical conclusion

That case in under investigation, Has there never been an undertrial who has died in Italian or any EU prison, if there has been such a death in the last 50 years, EU should give an undertaking that no matter what the crime, they don't have the right to arrest Indian citizens.

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 12 Mar 2013 14:18

Sanku ji, I am sure harbans ji has good reasons and I respect those.

FWIW, in the other debates that I have participated in on BR, his opinion and mine mostly converge.

harbans ji if I may give my answer:

Italians: Why should we get our marines tried in India?
Indians: The crime happened in India.
Italians: NO that was the first point of controversy. But importantly we think these people cannot have a fair trial.
Indians: Our Justice system is very fair to prisoners.
Italians: Oh and the undertrial in the most high profile case underway just hanged himself in a cell with 3 others..and you say your justice system is fair?
Indians: But, but..

My answer is that there are no questions or answers. That is neither the point, it is just a way to lose the impetus by answering questions that try to put you on the defensive.

GOI's response should be - Please return the prisoners (we will make sure they are treated fairly) or we will do our damnedest- however weak our damndest is- to make life as uncomfortable for you as we can make it, including political, diplomatic and economic action.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 12 Mar 2013 14:19

Who were the judges who allowed them to go back?

Mark those names.