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Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

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Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Philip » 04 Apr 2013 01:09

For the first time since 1926 ,the UK appears to be heading for a nationwide general strike.Some of us will remember the last gen. strike in India.It indicates the deterioration in the UK economy,rising anger against the massive "cock-up" reg. illegal immigration,uncontrolled immigration where Brits have lost jobs and homes to the flood of immigrants from both E.Europe and elsewhere,with a rising tide of aggressive Islamist activity.

Britain's biggest unions put weight behind plan for general strike
Last edited by Gerard on 04 Apr 2013 02:42, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited title

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Re: Indo-UK news.

Postby RajeshA » 04 Apr 2013 01:49

Philip ji,

no Discussion here, only news? :)

Also the quote tags may be wrong in your post!

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Re: Indo-UK news.

Postby eklavya » 04 Apr 2013 02:31

This is a fun new feature on the BBC!

The Great British class calculator

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Re: Indo-UK news.

Postby eklavya » 04 Apr 2013 02:39

A great talent passes away ...

Writer Ruth Prawer Jhabvala dies at 85

Writer Ruth Prawer Jhabvala, whose scripts for Howards End and A Room With A View earned her two Oscars, has died.

The 85-year-old made more than 20 films with producer Ismail Merchant and director James Ivory over 40 years.

She also won the Booker Prize for her 1975 novel Heat and Dust, meaning she was the only person to have won an Oscar and the Booker.

Born in Germany, she fled the Nazis as a schoolgirl and spent much of her life in India. She died at home in New York.

She had been suffering from a pulmonary disorder and is survived by husband Cyrus and daughters Renana, Ava and Firoza-Bibi.

Born into a Jewish family, she fled Nazi Germany in 1939 with her parents and brother to begin a new life in Britain.

After meeting her future husband in London, Jhabvala moved with him to his native India in the 1950s, where she was visited by Merchant and Ivory to ask if they could make a film of her 1960 novel The Householder.

She agreed to write the screenplay and it was to mark the beginning of a fruitful partnership.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby ramana » 04 Apr 2013 02:58

So sad. She was a good writer. Life goes on.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby eklavya » 05 Apr 2013 04:05

MPs question UK aid to Pakistan

April 4, 2013 10:28 am
MPs question UK aid to Pakistan
By Hannah Kuchler

Britain should cut its aid to Pakistan if its elite continue to pay no income tax, MPs have advised, as the government comes under pressure to reduce its international development budget.

The UK should not support programmes in Pakistan – where UK aid is expected to rise to £464m a year – if the Pakistani government does not take action to increase its revenues and improve public services, the international development committee said.

Warning that the political system in Pakistan is characterised by “corruption, insufficient tax collection, poor human rights and a failure to protect minorities”, the MPs said it makes all donor-supported programmes less effective.

“If the Pakistan government is unwilling to take action to increase its revenues and improve services for its people, it cannot expect the British people to do so in the long run,” the report concluded. “We cannot expect the citizens of the UK to pay taxes to improve education and health in Pakistan if the Pakistan elite is not paying income tax.”

Aid should not be raised any further unless Pakistan’s tax take increases and the UK should make clear to the Pakistan government the conditions under which development funds could be reduced, the MPs said.

The UK should also pressure the IMF to ensure any additional loans have clear conditions and targets, they added.

Britain’s commitment to increase aid to developing countries is bucking a global trend as governments have cut payments as a way of reducing their deficit. David Cameron pledged to spend 0.7 per cent of UK income on aid, making it one of only a handful of budgets protected from public spending cuts.

But he has faced calls to cut the budget from Conservative backbenchers, who think the UK does not have the cash to spend abroad – and that the money is not always spent wisely.

Justine Greening, international development secretary, has already said the UK will stop all financial aid to India from 2015 and spend £200m less in the next three years. She also halted all aid channelled through the Ugandan government last year amid fears that foreign support was being siphoned off into private bank accounts.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby brihaspati » 05 Apr 2013 21:06

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2010/10/british_german_jihad.php
Over the past month, US Predator strikes in Pakistan have killed at least three Western members of the cells assigned to carry out Mumbai-like terror assaults against targets in major European cities.

One Briton, who had been appointed to a top al Qaeda leadership position in the United Kingdom, and two Germans associated with the Hamburg cell were killed in airstrikes by unmanned US Predators or Reapers in Pakistan in September.

The Briton, who was identified as Abdul Jabbar, is thought to have been killed in a US airstrike in the Datta Khel area of North Waziristan on Sept. 8. Jabbar, a British citizen who was originally from Jhelum in Pakistan, was said to have been appointed as the future leader of the so-called Islamic Army of Great Britain, according to the BBC.

"Intelligence agencies monitored a meeting of 300 militants three months ago in the Ambarshaga area of North Waziristan, attended by Jabbar and militants from the Taliban and al Qaeda," the BBC reported. At that meeting, he was appointed the leader of the Islamic Army of Great Britain and was tasked with carrying out terror assaults in Britain, France, and Germany, using assault rifles and suicide vests.

Jabbar had earlier survived a drone strike on a militant training camp run by Hafiz Gul Bahadur, a commander allied with the Haqqani Network, an Afghan Taliban faction considered one of the most effective forces battling Western troops in Afghanistan.

[...]

The exact location of the strike that killed Askar and Almani is not known, but there has been one recent Predator attack in Pakistan in which Germans were reported among the dead: the Sept. 8 airstrike in Datta Khel, which is said to have killed eight Germans, two Britons, and a terrorist leader known as Qureshi, who was a trainer for the Islamic Jihad Group, a splinter faction of the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan. Qureshi was reported to be an expert in training Germans to carry out attacks in their home country.

Al Qaeda's European terror plot has rattled several Western nations, as they have become concerned that their own citizens have traveled to Pakistan for training to wage jihad in their home nations.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby eklavya » 06 Apr 2013 01:34

Teachers' favourite books

Top 20:

1. Pride and Prejudice Jane Austen

2. To Kill a Mockingbird Harper Lee

3. Harry Potter (series) J.K. Rowling

4. Wuthering Heights Emily Bronte

5. Jane Eyre Charlotte Bronte

6. Nineteen Eighty-Four George Orwell

7. The Lord of the Rings (series) J.R.R. Tolkien

8. The Book Thief Markus Zusak

9. The Hobbit J.R.R. Tolkien

10. The Great Gatsby F. Scott Fitzgerald

11. The Kite Runner Khaled Hosseini

12. The Hunger Games (series) Suzanne Collins

13. The Time Traveller’s Wife Audrey Niffenegger

14. The Chronicles of Narnia (series) C.S. Lewis

15. Of Mice and Men John Steinbeck

16. Birdsong Sebastian Faulks

17. His Dark Materials (series) Philip Pullman

18. The Gruffalo Julia Donaldson and Axel Scheffler

19. The Catcher in the Rye J.D. Salinger

20. Life of Pi Yann Martel

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Vayutuvan » 06 Apr 2013 06:00

I looked at the full list of 100 - no Mark Twain, no RL Stevenson, no Swift, no Oscar Wilde, no Defoe, but Hunger Games, Harry Potter and Twilight? Is your point that British education system is going down the tubes or are you saying that this is a great list? Please do say.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Lilo » 06 Apr 2013 06:12

The UN General Assembly passes Arms Treaty

NEW DELHI: India abstained from voting on a global arms trade treaty which was passed overhelmingly by the UN General Assembly on Tuesday. India's status as the world's biggest arms importer turned out to be a huge vulnerability because the treaty, according to Indian officials, leans heavily towards the interests of exporting countries rather than importers. The treaty, the first ever intended to limit illicit arms trade was passed with 154 votes in favor, 3 against and 23 abstentions. Other countries joining India in abstaining were China, Saudi Arabia, Russia among others.

In its explanation of vote, the lead negotiator, Sujata Mehta said, "The draft treaty that is annexed to the resolution is weak on terrorism and non-state actors and these concerns find no mention in the specific prohibitions of the treaty. Further, India cannot accept that the treaty be used as an instrument in the hands of exporting states to take unilateral force majeure measures against importing states parties without consequences. The relevant provisions in the final text do not meet our requirements."

During the negotiations, surprisingly, none of India's concerns were taken on board by the seven co-authors of the treaty. India wanted the treaty to regulate arms transfers to non-state actors like terrorist groups. New Delhi focus was on terror groups that target India or even internal insurgent groups like the Maoists but this was shot down. Countries like the US and the UK who supply arms to opposition groups such as in Syria and Libya wanted to retain the flexibility to continue to do so. Terrorist groups do find mention, but only in the non-binding preamble, not in the main body.



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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Gerard » 06 Apr 2013 08:23

Colonialism’s last stand
The big surprise of the book is how little time Burleigh has for the notion that the British were better imperialists than other European nations. They liked to denigrate other empires as “cruel and despotic”, he says, when “in reality they burned or buried their own files on atrocities committed in the colonies in the bowels of the Foreign Office”. Britain vacated Kenya, he argues, because its counter-terrorism policy and suppression of the Mau Mau was a “moral disaster it had inflicted on itself”. Burleigh is certainly no left-winger, but will this healthily sceptical assessment of our late imperial role find its way into education secretary Michael Gove’s new national history curriculum, which is intended to celebrate the glories of our island story? I suspect not.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Rony » 06 Apr 2013 09:18

Gerard wrote:Colonialism’s last stand
The big surprise of the book is how little time Burleigh has for the notion that the British were better imperialists than other European nations. They liked to denigrate other empires as “cruel and despotic”, he says, when “in reality they burned or buried their own files on atrocities committed in the colonies in the bowels of the Foreign Office”. Britain vacated Kenya, he argues, because its counter-terrorism policy and suppression of the Mau Mau was a “moral disaster it had inflicted on itself”. Burleigh is certainly no left-winger, but will this healthily sceptical assessment of our late imperial role find its way into education secretary Michael Gove’s new national history curriculum, which is intended to celebrate the glories of our island story? I suspect not.


From the link,

the fanatical Israeli freedom-fighter Menachem Begin “regarded the British as Nazis with better manners”

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Shanmukh » 06 Apr 2013 10:30

The big surprise of the book is how little time Burleigh has for the notion that the British were better imperialists than other European nations. They liked to denigrate other empires as “cruel and despotic”, he says, when “in reality they burned or buried their own files on atrocities committed in the colonies in the bowels of the Foreign Office”. Britain vacated Kenya, he argues, because its counter-terrorism policy and suppression of the Mau Mau was a “moral disaster it had inflicted on itself”. Burleigh is certainly no left-winger, but will this healthily sceptical assessment of our late imperial role find its way into education secretary Michael Gove’s new national history curriculum, which is intended to celebrate the glories of our island story? I suspect not.

From the link,

the fanatical Israeli freedom-fighter Menachem Begin “regarded the British as Nazis with better manners”


Menechem Begin was `fanatic' in the same way that the more nationalistic Indian leaders were `fanatic'. He was an Israeli nationalist, and the leader of the Irgun, the forerunner of the present Likud. He was the Israeli Prime Minister that signed the Camp David accord with Egypt, ending four decades of war (declared and undeclared). It is interesting how the Brits characterise other countries' nationalists. I wonder if they will define Cameron and Margaret Thatcher as `fanatics'.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby eklavya » 06 Apr 2013 17:19

matrimc wrote:I looked at the full list of 100 - no Mark Twain, no RL Stevenson, no Swift, no Oscar Wilde, no Defoe, but Hunger Games, Harry Potter and Twilight? Is your point that British education system is going down the tubes or are you saying that this is a great list? Please do say.


The list provides an interesting insight into who/what is influencing British teachers these days, many of whom work with younger children / have young children of their own. No Graham Greene, no Ernest Hemingway, no VS Naipaul, but Room on the Broom made the list. :) I really don't think it matters much, as long as the kids learn to read, write and like books.

From the article:

Very little, beyond politics and religion, divides people quite like a list. And so, perhaps, it is unsurprising that a TES survey of teachers’ top 100 favourite novels should generate what one might refer to as differences of opinion among those discussing the results.


The TES survey suggests that, if one were to draw up a curriculum based entirely on teachers’ own reading preferences, it would not look too dissimilar from the existing curriculum: Pride and Prejudice, To Kill a Mockingbird, Jane Eyre and Of Mice and Men would all be there. But, Gibbons says, staff should nonetheless be wary of deciding to teach their own favourite novels. His personal favourite is Gravity’s Rainbow by Thomas Pynchon. But he says that he would not want to read it with students.


But Shepherd disagrees. She struggles initially to name her own favourite book: “I have favourite books that have been my favourite my whole life. I have new favourites, too. But of all time? What could I not live without?” There is silence, as she thinks. “Probably To Kill a Mockingbird. I see it in a different light every time I teach it.

“I hated English at school but, when I was taught that book, I was, “Oh, my God! This is what a real book looks like.’ But I do think it’s massively important that teachers do read. Then you can dip in and out of someone else’s ideas, and really express yourself more elegantly.”

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Lilo » 06 Apr 2013 20:31


RajeshA
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby RajeshA » 06 Apr 2013 22:04

Lilo wrote:Image

^^ Map of India as depicted in Mirror.uk .

First picture of British tourist, 24, 'stabbed to death' on houseboat in India


It seems the British tourist was not in India when she died, so she died in Srinagar, so why do they say India? Can't the British make up their damn minds? Or are they really idiots in Daily Mirror? Arccchthoooo!

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby vishvak » 06 Apr 2013 22:49

A European is held on suspicion but that has not stopped the uppity British to avoid cheap pisko tricks and Pakistan style hai-tauba. After all pakis and British are allies.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby eklavya » 06 Apr 2013 23:32



Some background:

India puts Sikh radical Rajoana's execution on hold
28 March 2012 Last updated at 19:24

India has put on hold the execution of a prisoner, sentenced to death for his role in the 1995 murder of Punjab state's Chief Minister Beant Singh.

Balwant Singh Rajoana's hanging, which had been set for Saturday, was postponed after a mercy petition to the president, the Home Ministry said.

Several opposition parties and Sikh groups had called a strike demanding a halt to the impending execution.

Rajoana, who was sentenced in 2007, has not appealed against the sentence, although other convicted co-conspirators have had their death sentences reduced on appeal.

The Press Trust of India news agency said the hanging had been stayed following a mercy petition by top Sikh religious body the Shiromani Gurudwara Prabandhak Committee (SGPC) to President Pratibha Patil.

PTI quoted a letter from the Home Ministry to the Punjab government detailing the reasons for the stay of execution, describing the postponement as procedural to allow petitions for mercy to be decided on.

The Home Ministry order came after Punjab Chief Minister Parkash Singh Badal met President Patil to seek clemency for Rajoana.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Manish_Sharma » 07 Apr 2013 00:02

Lilo wrote:Image

^^ Map of India as depicted in Mirror.uk .

First picture of British tourist, 24, 'stabbed to death' on houseboat in India


Sometimes from mid 2011 to early 2012 somebody had put up on facebook all the links of since when the term 'Indian-subcontinent' was changed to 'South-East-Asia' in UK & US, I vaguely remember that first of all it was UK newspaper which had suggested that using the term 'Indian-subcontinent' is insulting to pakistan and bangladesh so it should be referred as 'South East Asia'.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Amber G. » 07 Apr 2013 00:15

matrimc wrote:I looked at the full list of 100 - no Mark Twain, no RL Stevenson, no Swift, no Oscar Wilde, no Defoe, but Hunger Games, Harry Potter and Twilight? Is your point that British education system is going down the tubes or are you saying that this is a great list? Please do say.


I don't see any Lev Landau, RP Feynman, George Gamow, Gorakh Prasad either.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Vayutuvan » 07 Apr 2013 02:39

:) Point taken...

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby member_23686 » 07 Apr 2013 22:04

Lilo wrote:Image

^^ Map of India as depicted in Mirror.uk .

First picture of British tourist, 24, 'stabbed to death' on houseboat in India


what happened to north east?

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby JE Menon » 07 Apr 2013 22:11

same thing that happened to J&K. Mirror.co.uk gave it to Pakistan, China, Bangladesh and so on :D

Probably some Paki idiot sitting at the Mirror offices decided to do his duty to Islam in the only way he could: by lying to the world.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Lalmohan » 07 Apr 2013 23:03

^^^ that is the #1 possibility. most goras don't have a clue, probably struggle to find India on the map, never mind cashmere...

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby vishvak » 07 Apr 2013 23:17

A 5year Indian kid kidnapped by some social agency in UK. Shows how Europeans view of European society but projected on others.
Method: Smoking is bad, dad smokes? Dad bathes? - 'allegation' of abuse, kidnap and send to foster care.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby devesh » 07 Apr 2013 23:19

Why such a cavalier justification on our part?
Unless corroborated by the "goras" themselves, such slights should be considered unguarded slips of "expectations" and future projections.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Sanku » 07 Apr 2013 23:24

Will Eklavya ji, tell us what in his views should His Majesty;s govt do to newspaper which show a distorted maps of "friend" countries? Is it obliged to do something? Nothing? What are the laws?

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Neela » 07 Apr 2013 23:41

Having watched these sl1my gents for some time now, I do not think that map was a work of some Paki done to take a cheap shot. It is intentional.Not too long ago, a man holding a banana wanted to gift Kashmir to buy peace with the devil. That map you are seeing is an extension of the official position of Britain.
These scumbags will not waste an opportunity to take a shot at India. But when it comes to preserving their interests, they maintain a deathly silence. Case in point - all the rapes getting good coverage in the press - that is ok because that hurts India. But not one word about the "ghastly" killing of Italians . If they break the silence , they know they risk another Eurofighter episode with the helicopter deal. The Yeovil plant for AgustaWestland does the gearbox and final assembly.
I bet my right scrotum the British press will never ever say a word about primitive Indian natives taking the Italians hostage.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby shyam » 08 Apr 2013 00:06

JE Menon wrote:Probably some Paki idiot sitting at the Mirror offices decided to do his duty to Islam in the only way he could: by lying to the world.

Why do we make such silly excuses to save the skin of British white? Why can't it be deliberate action of the goras? BBC deliberately shades whole of J&K in India's map. Sometimes they shade out Arunachal Pradesh. The above mistake in Indian map is too obvious to escape anybody who has seen proper Indian map, unless the whole of Mirror is owned or occupied by pakis. Why can't it be that they are testing public response through less important media, before they get promoted to mainstream like BBC with the argument that China claims whole of Indian North East and Nagas & Mizos were fighting decades for separation?

Instead of blaming pakis for such actions, Indians should be calling it irresponsible nature of British media. If some gora claims that it is not, the gora in the office should take the responsibility and make sure that pakis don't do it.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Lalmohan » 08 Apr 2013 02:16

shyam - i was once in a conversation with a senior journalist at a well known UK establishment, and after a few minutes conversation it was very apparent that he understood very little (we were talking about mushy's speech on tv post 9/11) about whats going on. dont underestimate the power of stupidity and ignorance

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby shyam » 08 Apr 2013 02:43

There a lot of difference between understanding the subtleties of a speech, and getting the map of a country, that was same for last 65 years, wrong.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby brihaspati » 08 Apr 2013 08:06

Sanku ji,
its the "freedom of the press" laws. They are severely constrained by the law in not taking any action. Especially if it is not in their national interest. Anyone who feels strongly about this can always take it up in a British court of law and challenge Mirror - in propah leegal weay.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby brihaspati » 08 Apr 2013 08:16

The report has come out under the name of Natalie Evans - unlikely to be a Paki. The name under whose tag the news goes out, the editor of the paper/outlet, and the publisher are liable. None of these are Pakis.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby JE Menon » 08 Apr 2013 16:13

>>Why do we make such silly excuses to save the skin of British white? Why can't it be deliberate action of the goras?

Boss, it "might be the deliberate action of the goras". I'm not saying it isn't. But I'm just giving my opinion that it is probably some Paki sitting in the Mirror offices doing this, if you don't mind. Not exactly giving an "excuse to save the skin of British white"!!! All you need to do is give your own opinion, not suggest that another poster - in this case me - is trying to "save the skin of a British white".

In short, chill the fu(k down. Or we can take it to the limit if you prefer. I'm game. Because it could be done, not just to save the skin of the British white, but to deride and destroy the skin of the Hindu brown. Now I think it is the Jews, who own the Mirror (definitely, somehow or the other, the connection is there, be sure of it)...

Or we can just take it easy and let people calmly and peacefully give their opinions.

Of course, I think somebody should sue the Mirror...or at least raise the threat, so that the source of that map from the graphics dept of the paper is pulled up.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby member_23629 » 08 Apr 2013 16:31

Sometimes from mid 2011 to early 2012 somebody had put up on facebook all the links of since when the term 'Indian-subcontinent' was changed to 'South-East-Asia' in UK & US, I vaguely remember that first of all it was UK newspaper which had suggested that using the term 'Indian-subcontinent' is insulting to pakistan and bangladesh so it should be referred as 'South East Asia'.


Using the term "Continent of Americas" is insulting to Mexico and Canada.

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby brihaspati » 08 Apr 2013 20:23

varunkumar wrote:
Sometimes from mid 2011 to early 2012 somebody had put up on facebook all the links of since when the term 'Indian-subcontinent' was changed to 'South-East-Asia' in UK & US, I vaguely remember that first of all it was UK newspaper which had suggested that using the term 'Indian-subcontinent' is insulting to pakistan and bangladesh so it should be referred as 'South East Asia'.


Using the term "Continent of Americas" is insulting to Mexico and Canada.


The Mirror also consistently uses the term "British Isles" for Ireland and the "home islands". They as well as Guardian excuse it by saying it is "onlee a geographical term" therefore the Irish have no right to be indignant about it. Just say it to the "devotedly Irish".

I think we should consistently use the term Indian subcontinent in every British connected fora. If anyone protests - we should say - it is the larger "geographical" context, and should be taken in the same sense that the British use "British Isles".

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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Lalmohan » 08 Apr 2013 20:39

just about everybody in england, scotland, wales says british isles - its not so unusual
the most common terms re greater india i see are indian subcontinent, subcontinent or south asia. south-east asia is indo-china
the majority of newspapers i have seen regarding the srinagar houseboat murder are calling it 'srinagar, india' and refering to either kashmir police or indian police - every now and again an 'indian-administered-kashmir' crops up, but even on the same paper or channel it then reverts to one of the other forms above

no one is making excuses for anyone here, but sometimes i think you guys are over sensitive. as i have said before - the majority sentiment of westerners is negligence and lack of interest in india and indian concerns. whilst there may be people/institutions with nefarious plans - most people couldn't really care less. i wonder if it is that which hurts us more than the CT's?

brihaspati
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby brihaspati » 08 Apr 2013 20:50

^^Try and say you are in the "British isles" in any pub in Dublin. Don't even try this in Limerick, or the coastal towns from Cork to Kerry.

Lalmohan
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Re: Indo-UK News and Discussion - April 2013

Postby Lalmohan » 08 Apr 2013 20:51

sure, but the mirror and guardian are not very well read in limerick...


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