Shiva Bhoomi, Manasa Sarovar & Tibet Mukti Sangharsh

[harbans]

As i had mentioned before the Chinese will make Nepal a colony like they have Tibet..it is happening and gathering pace. Meanwhile we shut our eyes and ears to forming a Dharmic federation. We are sleeping with our eyes wide open. Shame..!!

Nepal is the New Chinese Colony

[harbans]

Once India is Nehruvian ideology (which essentially negates our historical cultural, religious identity and links with Tibet) mukth, the best solutions to manage the Chinese threat will emerge. Make an arrangement with the Tibetans and Govt In Exile that Kailash-Mansarover/ Shiv Bhoomi will be a Dharmic sthal under a Dharmic federation managed by Tibet-India- Nepal jointly and environmental sustainability maintained. This area about 500k plus sq km area is also the life of the entire subcontinent being the supplier of all the major river systems here. In return for this endorsement and agreement with the Govts of Nepal and Tibet (in Exile) we endorse in Official policy documents 2 steps for China with a straight serious face:

1. Return of Kailash-Mansarover/ Shiv Bhoomi as first step to the Dharmic trio of Tibet, Nepal, India.
2. Return of Tibet to Tibetans and discussions on the Northern and Eastern borders of Tibet-China.

China will obviously laugh it off when India declares this as Official policy. It may even try for some military gains in our Northern borders which we must then as well as now be fully prepared to counter. A military engagement may also mean a full scale Indian deployment in many areas of Tibet, a thing that is not in consideration under a Nehruvian setup. If military engagement post Nehruvian mukht Bharat is considered, that deployment, cutting of Chinese positions in large swathes of Tibet will become a reality. Blocking Malacca and supplies in addition to full scale thrusts into Tibet will entail a possible military loss in Tibet or large tracts of China mukth Tibet. Whatever the scenario there is a major risk to China in a military conflict with a Nehruvian mukht Bharat or a Dharmic backed Bharat. The rules change. No longer will it be drive the invaders from some indistinct boundary at our northern borders. It will become drive the Chinese out from the Dharmic soil of Tibet, Kailash-Mansarover/ Shiv Bhoomi.

Once Chinese realize military options will not help, may even destroy whatever economic progress it has made it will be pragmatic. But what certainly will happen is India's change of stance will reverberate in millions of mainstream articles around the world and clearly disassociate Chinese claims on Dharmic soil. Clamor will grow for Chinese to vacate. India holds the key to freeing Tibet and Shiv Bhoomi. Nepal will join in as a tract of land much larger than itself beckons for joint management. Nepal will wean away from Maoism and immediately join the Dharmic federation as proposed by India. The only way to change things on the ground is to change our stance on KM/ Tibet. It cannot be done by a setup that has been brainwashed by perverse Nehruvian fundamentals that negate India's soul. Once that changes all else changes, the paths are clear and visible. The options are many and point to inevitable struggle yet victory.

Even in the MB, Yudhistra after giving away his Kingdoms fought for it once he came into his senses. Same with India,Foreign Policy conducted through the prism of Nehruvianism is just a vehicle to give away Dharmic soil with as much impunity as Yudhistra did while gambling away all. Yet MB shows all that can be redeemed if we steadily stand by Dharma and claim it steadfastedly. Time has come that we start the process of doing so.

[harbans]

No one talks of persecution here: A Good account. And a reason why we need to reclaim lost Dharmic soil. But then..we have to establish ourselves as a Dharmic Sthal itself first to have empathy.

http://www.freshmemories.net/tenpa-dhargyal/

[devesh]

harbans ji, empathy is something not found easily among Indians now. we have gotten used to being callous at the plight of our own fellow citizens. forget Tibetans and Nepalis. expansion requires a kind of attitude where you are willing to take on the "world's problems". any society which shirks from that and insists on being "pragmatic" and "practical" can never really hope to have its footprint on the world.

[harbans]

Devesh Ji, am sorry, don't agree. One must lift oneself above Sampradayic affiliations to comprehend Dharmic kinship. When that happens one will realize what parochialism is..and where the folly for the last 1000 years of hardship we faced lies. Nothing more here.

[harbans]

This is what we have to achieve wrt China. Talks with China should be on the Northern and Eastern borders of Tibet. We must join Tibet and talk with China with maps on hand. All diplomatic and over Tea/ Chai-biscuits. Just make a deal with Tibet and Nepal over joint management of Shiv Bhoomi.

[eklavya]

FT: An exclusive interview with the Dalai Lama: 'I always pray the Chinese leadership should develop more common sense’

November 7, 2013 11:03 pm
An exclusive interview with the Dalai Lama
By Amy Kazmin

I arrive in Dharamsala, the Indian home of Tibet’s exiled spiritual leader the Dalai Lama, groggy after an overnight train journey from New Delhi and a two-hour drive into the Himalayas. The weather is grey and drizzly but the mood is festive as crowds flock to Tsuglagkhang Temple, where the Dalai Lama is giving a three-day public teaching on a 14th-century Buddhist text about the path to enlightenment.

Stopping briefly at my hotel, I hear the voice of the world’s most famous Buddhist monk echoing over loudspeakers from the temple nearby. Typically when he speaks to audiences in English, the Dalai Lama is light-hearted, chuckling in the midst of sentences. But today the 78-year-old, who fled to India in 1959, nine years after China’s People’s Liberation Army occupied his homeland, is speaking in his mother tongue. His tones are hushed and serious, though gentle.

Soon, I am among Tibetan refugees, Indians and westerners – the devoted and the curious – thronging towards the temple through an alley strewn with reminders of Tibet’s discontent under Chinese rule. A huge banner – emblazoned “Sacrifice of Life for Tibet” – honours more than 100 Tibetans who have immolated themselves in the past two years in despairing, solitary protests in their repressed homeland, many using their final moments to call for the Dalai Lama’s return.

Photos of each – with their names, ages and dates when they set themselves ablaze – are surrounded with images of flames. Another banner has grisly photos of Tibetans allegedly shot by police in China’s Sichuan province while celebrating the Dalai Lama’s birthday on July 6. A black marble triangle is engraved with the words “Tibetan National Martyrs Memorial” and a museum details Chinese human rights abuses.

But politics is not the sole offering. A Tibetan man in a Brazilian football jacket is selling the Dalai Lama’s books, including his Beyond Religion: Ethics for a Whole World (2011). A monk from the Library of Tibetan Works and Archives appeals for donations to translate and preserve sacred Buddhist texts. A flier touts “Tibet Power Healing”, promising to “free your mind from stress and worry” in 30 minutes of “Chakra Healing”. A table is laden with lemon tarts, brownies and carrot cake.

Inside the temple, the 14th Dalai Lama, revered by many Tibetans as a living god and a manifestation of the Bodhisattva of Compassion, sits atop an elevated throne, a large golden Buddha behind him and a sea of humanity around him. Maroon-robed monks, shaven-headed nuns, weathered elders fingering prayer beads and families with children in traditional dress, as if for a school pageant, sit cross-legged on the floor. Those without a direct view watch their spiritual leader on flat-screen TVs.

Foreigners, including Americans, Europeans, Koreans and Japanese, round out the crowd of thousands, a reminder of how the Dalai Lama – who went into exile as the virtually unknown leader of an isolated country – has become a global household name, with more than eight million Twitter followers and celebrity acolytes such as the actor Richard Gere.

Analysing the “Song on the Stages of the Path to Enlightenment,” the Tibetan spiritual leader offers a taste of the universalism that has made him a popular prophet for a secular age. He urges avoidance of Buddhism’s 10 specified non-virtuous acts – killing, lying, stealing, divisive talk among them – but then observes that shunning such actions is not exclusively Buddhist.

“If people are Christian, it can be a Christian practice; if they are Muslim, it can be a Muslim practice, and if they are Buddhist, it can be a Buddhist practice,” he says. “I respect other traditions for the help they bring their followers.”

At noon, he ends the day’s session, apologising, “I feel exhausted if I teach too long.” Leaning on two aides, the Dalai Lama follows a monk – who carries a brass bowl of billowing incense – down a flight of stairs to the temple courtyard, where a car waits to ferry him to his adjoining residence. He blesses a few devotees and eases into the car. Then, the vehicle pulls away, and His Holiness is gone.

. . .
A few days later, I am walking across the temple courtyard, now peopled by vigorously debating monks and children playing under parents’ watchful eyes. I am bound for the Dalai Lama’s home, hoping to talk to the Nobel Peace Prize-winner not about spirituality but something more temporal – the plight of China’s restive Tibetan population, and its prospects for greater religious and political freedom under Xi Jinping, China’s new leader.

A security clampdown across Tibet has prevented a replay of the mass protests that swept the Tibetan plateau in March 2008. But the recent wave of self-immolation hints at despair below the surface of apparent Tibetan quiescence. Communist authorities swiftly remove all traces of these suicides – and those disseminating information about them face harsh punishment. But the immolations have caught global attention and appear to be rattling Beijing’s leaders.

In June, Jin Wei, an ethnic minorities scholar at the elite Central Party School, urged Beijing to take a “creative” new approach to Tibet, and talk with the Dalai Lama, normally reviled by Communist authorities as a “jackal in monk’s clothing”.

Her groundbreaking appeal was published in a Hong Kong magazine, suggesting high-level backing. But a leading Politburo member has subsequently sought to squelch speculation of a change in tack, vowing to deepen the crackdown on what he calls “the Dalai clique”. More recently, a government white paper endorsed Beijing’s “correct” policies in Tibet, saying Beijing’s approach had brought economic development and political progress to a “backward, primitive state”.

I have been warned the Buddhist cleric may not be keen to answer political questions. In March 2011, the then 75-year-old declared he was retiring from active politics. Within months, Lobsang Sangay, a 43-year-old Harvard legal scholar, was installed as the head of Tibet’s exile administration, after an election within the 150,000-strong refugee community.

But Tenzin Gyatso cannot so easily cast off his political role. A farmer’s son, he was recognised as the 14th incarnation of the Dalai Lama at just two years old, swept off to study Buddhist philosophy and enthroned as Tibet’s spiritual and temporal leader at the age of 15. Today, he remains the living embodiment of Tibetan aspirations for dignity, and cultural and religious freedom – a role no elected official can easily fill. Beijing’s blustering rhetoric against him only reinforces that sense of where true power lies.

. . .
In the flower-lined drive of his hilltop home, the Dalai Lama, looking sprightly and fresh, is welcoming about 20 visitors in a receiving line, held regularly when he is in Dharamsala. Among the Tibetans are a wheelchair-bound monastery cook; a family immigrating to America; an epileptic teenager; and a couple whose 12-year-old daughter died in an accident.

After he goes inside, I am taken to a receiving room, where the Dalai Lama stands at the door. He warmly takes my hand and, holding it, guides me inside to a sofa, settling into a chair next to me. His two private secretaries – both secularly educated laymen – and a translator are also in attendance. Unsure how to start an interview with a Bodhisattva – a person believed to have attained enlightenment but who postpones nirvana to help others – I begin as I do with most interviews, by presenting my business card.

Tibet’s spiritual leader studies my name, repeats it several times and turns to his aides to ask where I am from. “California,” I say. “But the name is eastern European. Polish. Jewish.” He chuckles. “Chosen people,” he says. “We are chosen people too – by Avalokiteshvara (the Buddha of Compassion) – but we suffer a lot.”

The Dalai Lama has an abiding interest in how Jews maintained their faith and culture over 2,000 years in exile. But my interest is whether the six million ethnic Tibetans on the Tibetan plateau – who are facing intense pressure to assimilate into Chinese society – will see their suffering ease, or end, soon. I ask how he interprets China’s conflicting signals – calls for change and simultaneous crackdowns.
“Like many other people – confused,” he says, laughing. Then he offers his take on the “eras” of Communist China: Mao’s era of excessive, “unrealistic” ideology; Deng Xiaoping’s introduction of “capitalism to a socialist country”, Jiang Zemin’s shift to allow the Communist party to represent wealthy businessmen and intellectuals, along with the working class; and finally Hu Jintao’s pursuit of a “harmonious society” amid widening social and economic fissures.

“Judging these events, [we see] the same party – totalitarian system – has the ability to act according to new realities,” he concludes. Yet Hu’s quest for a harmonious society “more or less failed”, he says. “The method to promote harmony [was] through tight control and relying on use of force. That is the mistake. Logically, harmony must come from the heart … Harmony very much based on trust. As soon as use force, creates fear. Fear and trust cannot go together.”

“What do you think?” His Holiness suddenly asks the FT photographer clicking away. “You are listening; therefore, I am asking. This is common sense, isn’t it? Even an animal, if you show genuine affection, gradually trust develops … If you always showing bad face and beating, how can you develop friendship?”

So does the Dalai Lama believe China’s leaders may be more willing to negotiate with him over conditions in Tibet than in the past? Beijing has long accused him of covertly seeking independence for about one-quarter of China’s land mass, despite his insistence that he only wants autonomy for ethnic Tibetans within China. Hardliners believe Tibetan religiosity, identity and resistance to Beijing will fade once the ageing monk leaves the scene.

“I am optimistic,” he says. “Whether they love me or not, the Tibetan problem is there.” He laughs. “It’s not only the Tibetan problem, but it’s the problem of the People’s Republic of China. They have to solve this. Using force failed. So they must now carry out a policy to respect Tibetan culture and Tibetan people.”

It’s a far cry from the Dalai Lama’s bleak mood when the FT interviewed him in 2008, after protests had swept Tibet. Then, the Nobel laureate mourned his waning influence over a younger, angrier generation. Today, he seems relaxed and confident, insisting he can convince most Tibetans – even independence advocates – to accept Chinese rule if genuine autonomy is granted.

“I have some moral authority among Tibetans. I can use it to persuade those Tibetans who want to separate,” he says. He suggests China’s leaders have far greater need of him than he of them.

“Talk with Chinese government for my interest? No,” he says. “I am just a monk. Major portion of my life already gone. Remaining 10, perhaps 15 years, I can manage. I have a lot of friends in Europe, America, Canada.” Again, he laughs. “I consider myself a citizen of the world.”

In reality, the Dalai Lama’s world is shrinking, as China uses its economic clout to isolate him. East Asian countries – even those that once received him, such as Buddhist Thailand – are now too terrified of upsetting Beijing to permit him on their soil. Japan is the lone exception. The year-long deep freeze of Beijing’s diplomatic relations with the UK after David Cameron’s 2012 meeting with the Tibetan leader was a warning to other western governments.

I ask if the international failure to take a stronger stand on Tibet reflects global leaders’ moral bankruptcy. “It’s a reality,” he says. Later he explains, “my main interest is not meeting leaders. If I have some political agenda, then it is important to meet leaders. In most cases, my visits to the west are for promotion of human values and religious harmony.”

. . .
The Dalai Lama has another constituency he increasingly wants to reach, one which some critics say is long overdue: China’s opinion-makers and the Chinese public. Every week, 10 or 20 Chinese citizens make the arduous journey to Dharamsala to see the Buddhist monk their government so deeply despises. Others snap up his books – many of which have been translated into Chinese – on overseas trips.

“These days, we are meeting with many Chinese – intellectuals, writers, students and retired officials,” he says. “I have met thousands in the last few years. I am trying for closer understanding of what we want, what we are thinking. It’s very helpful.”

If he could return to Tibet, I ask, what would be his priorities there? I hope for a hint of personal nostalgia – or perhaps the first outlines of a policy agenda.

The answer reflects his mastery of the Buddhist philosophy of non-attachment. “Nothing special,” he says. “Rest of my life, two things – promotion of human values, and promotion of religious harmony – until my death, I am committed. Regarding Tibet, political side, I have already retired. Preservation of Tibetan culture, I am fully committed. I consider Tibetan culture a culture of peace, non-violence, compassion. It’s really worthwhile to preserve.”

Coming from a Jewish tradition, I wonder whether the essence of Tibetan Buddhism can be preserved outside Tibet. The Dalai Lama has overseen the re-establishment of major Tibetan monasteries in India, and Tibetan Buddhism has ever more western adherents. Can’t the essence of the faith flourish in exile? He is sceptical. “Difficult. For preservation of Tibetan Buddhism – Tibetan Buddhist culture – the main responsibility is on the shoulders of six million Tibetan people.”

Most young monks in India’s Tibetan monasteries were born in Tibet, not exile. But since the 2008 unrest, China has clamped down on the Tibet border, and just a few hundred Tibetan refugees reach India each year now. Tibetan monasteries are struggling to find novices, and increasingly looking to other Tibetan-influenced Himalayan regions, such as Bhutan and Ladakh. But the Dalai Lama does not see non-Tibetans as filling the void. “Different language. Completely different culture. Not easy,” he chuckles.

I turn to Tibet’s wave of self-immolations. Beijing has accused the Dalai Lama of instigating the suicides, and his statements walk a fine line: neither encouraging, nor condemning them. I ask if his refusal to appeal to Tibetans to stop the immolations can be construed – as Beijing claims –as tacit endorsement?

. . .
The Dalai Lama seems upset. “If I created this, then I have the right to say, ‘No, don’t do,’” he says forcefully. “This is their own creation: Tibetan people – inside Tibet. These people, I consider my boss. I am carrying their wish. I am not demanding, ‘You should do this, you should not do this’ … The causes of these things are created by hard-line officials. They have the responsibility. They have to find ways to stop this.”

I wonder if he ever rues going into exile, and whether Tibet’s story might have played out differently if he had stayed with his beleaguered people? “There is one clear example: the Panchen Lama,” he shoots back. “The Panchen Lama remained there. What happened?”

Born in 1938, the 10th Panchen Lama, the second-highest-ranking lama in Tibet’s spiritual hierarchy, originally supported Chinese rule but grew highly critical of its destruction of Tibet’s religious institutions, economy and social fabric. In 1962, aged 24, he presented China’s top leaders a petition detailing Communist mistakes in Tibet. Initially he won concessions but was later purged as an “enemy of the Tibetan people” and spent 14 years in prison and house arrest. After his release, he kept pushing China’s leaders for cultural relaxation and moderate policies in Tibet, until his death in 1989.

“Many messages from Tibet – verbal messages, written messages, some old people, ask me, ‘Please come back, the sooner the better,’” the Dalai Lama says. “But sensible people – writers, students, some retired officials – express that they prefer I should live in a free country. They feel, ‘We have one representative in a free country.’ That is their message.

“Many Chinese, particularly Chinese Buddhists, every week are now coming here. Many ask, ‘Please don’t forget us and please come back.’ I tell them, ‘Up to now, Chinese government considers me as a demon. So if a demon returns at airport, demon may well be put in handcuffs and bring to demon’s palace – prison.’”

My allotted time is running out, so I turn to the question of his spiritual successor. In 2011, the Dalai Lama warned of potential political meddling in the search for his reincarnation after his death. But he said he could instead manifest himself as “an emanation” in another body while still alive, and such an emanation would be recognisable though “karma and prayers” or even through his direct blessing.
Complex metaphysically, this suggests the Dalai Lama could pick a spiritual successor – almost certainly an adult – in his lifetime, rather than reincarnating in a child born after his death. The monk says he will make a final decision at the age of about 90, a time frame one US-based scholar has likened to “playing poker with death”.

He sees no urgency. “Judging my body, next 10 years are OK. I think, most probably, in that time there will be some change in the Chinese thinking. I always pray the Chinese leadership should develop more common sense. Wider perspective. Holistic thinking.”

If conditions do not improve, does he expect more serious unrest in Tibet? “In my lifetime, I don’t think. I met one Tibetan working for a Chinese office. Very emotionally, he told me, their generation – age 30 or 40 – often say, ‘Until the Dalai Lama remains we have to follow his path. Once he is no longer there, we have to find various methods.’ I told him, ‘Don’t think that. We are Buddhist. We must follow non-violence.’ In our case, violence is almost like suicide … In these self-burnings, such people could easily harm others.”

He tells of a brawl in which one Tibetan stabbed another but the wounded man refused to retaliate – or even take his assailant’s money for his medical bills. “These are Tibetans – once they are determined, they can truly implement non-violence,” he says. “Clear?”

. . .
With that, my time is up. I am presented with a white prayer shawl, and sent back into the streets of Dharamsala. But the next morning, the Dalai Lama’s private secretary calls. His Holiness feels he was not clear about his position on the self-immolations, I am told, and wants to better explain himself. Hours later, I am back in the residence, and the maroon-robed monk strides in.

“One word,” he says, firmly. “Those self-burnings: these people, not drunk. Not family problems … The overall situation is so tense, so desperate, so they choose a very sad way … It is difficult to say, ‘You must live and face these unbearable difficulties.’ If I have some alternative to offer them, then I [can]say, ‘Don’t do that. Instead of shortening your life, please live long, and we can do this and this and that.’ But nothing – no alternative. Morally, [it’s] very difficult. There is no other choice but to remain silent, and prayer. Clear?”

He rises, and so do I, but he continues speaking. “Historically Tibet was an independent nation,” he says. “But we must look forward and according to the reality. It is our own interest to remain within the People’s Republic of China. Tibet is backward … and also wants to modernise … A number of Tibetans illegally went to America and Canada, not to seek spirituality but to seek dollars. Tibetans also love money. For that reason, remain in People’s Republic of China. Plenty of money.

“Our main concern is preservation of Tibetan culture – culture of peace, non-violence, ultimately a culture of love, compassion. That is really relevant in today’s world,” he says. “Millions of Chinese also need culture of love. Once there is a culture of love, honesty and transparency [will] come. Police and death sentence will not solve these things. Only if things change here,” he says, pointing to his heart.
“The very meaning of autonomy is look after your own culture,” he says. “Once that is fully implemented, we are very much willing to remain within People’s Republic of China … We Tibetans are historically separate. Doesn’t matter. We can live together.”

My audience is over. Leaving, I walk past five Chinese men – with short-cropped hair, wearing dark, ill-fitting polyester blazers – waiting to meet the Dalai Lama. I can’t help but wonder what they will say to each other, and whether a new era of Tibetans and Chinese living together harmoniously could finally be poised to begin.

[member_27847]

Look forward to the day when:

1. Mount Kailash & Lake Manasarovar are back in India's fold.

2. POK is back in India's fold.

3. Tibet, once again, acts as a buffer state between India and China.

This will happen when:

1. The Hindu leaders (including religious leaders) fight for abolishing caste system. The caste system has to be totally removed from the society.

2. Idol worship is removed - as idol worship promotes delusion.

3. The study of Veda and Shashtra (6 original) is promoted through education system.

Until then, India will remain militarily weak and your goals will be unattainable.

[member_27847]

Devesh Ji, am sorry, don't agree. One must lift oneself above Sampradayic affiliations to comprehend Dharmic kinship. When that happens one will realize what parochialism is..and where the folly for the last 1000 years of hardship we faced lies. Nothing more here.

The divisions in Hinduism are due to non-study of Veda. The religious preachers are also ignorant of Veda.

The divisions will disappear if Hindus start studying Veda.

You will be surprised to know that China has made an effort to understand Veda.

It is only White man that denounces Veda.

Willing to meet you and discuss the matter.

[harbans]

^ If you have anything to say about Shiv Bhoomi or Kailash Mansarover please do. Else don't spam here. Need not reply.

[RoyG]

Garg,

What the hell does idol worship and study of the vedas have to do with exhibiting diplomatic finesse and being militarily strong? Sounds like BS to me. If we want to reclaim these sites we have to improve the economy, more closely integrate the countries of the subcontinent, and start devising our own strategies building upon texts like the arthashastra which span the entire spectrum of strategy, conflict escalation and alliance building. We will also need think tanks and a competitive university system with proper funding so we can churn out quality diplomats and researchers. I would say having a concept of dharmic values and worldview and what makes us different from the rest of the world is critical. However, going to the extent of idol worship, vedas, etc is nonsense.

[member_27847]

To Mr Harbans:

Shiva Bhoomi is imaginary. The entire tale of ShivJi and Kailash/Mansarovar is imaginary.

Mr Harbans need not reply. If you want to argue, face to face is needed.

To Mr RoyG:

The integration of Hindu society is the basic condition for military strength. The integration won't happen until real 'dharm' is known to people. Please read Swami Dayanand Saraswati's "Satyarth Prakash".

You read this book first, and then we can discuss.

[Victor]

You read this book first, and then we can discuss.

This is a pretty arrogant attitude to take. Nothing against Dayanand Saraswati but there are several God-realized teachers living today who practice idol worship, so who to believe? It is the broad inclusiveness of Hindu dharma that is the very basis of this thread.

[RajeshA]

To Mr Harbans:

Shiva Bhoomi is imaginary. The entire tale of ShivJi and Kailash/Mansarovar is imaginary.

Mr Harbans need not reply. If you want to argue, face to face is needed.

1) On BRF, discussions and debates have been carried out for many many years. No face to face has ever been needed for that. Everybody here knows how to formulate their arguments and express them through the tools at their disposal. If you have the arguments, you should be able to convince the others here as well. If you don't, then additional personal touch of face to face is not going to change much either.

2) You completely fail to understand the difference between imaginary (as you think) and mythological (as is the case). Mythological existence proposes a reality of a people's beliefs and faith on a history which may be fiction or may be truth expressed in a form as yet or over time not completely decipherable to us. Based on these beliefs stands solid history of claims and their assertion either piecemeal or even over longer periods.

[devesh]

Garg, if Shiva bhoomi and mana-sarovar are imaginary. then even China's claims of "long lost glory" of Han ethnicity is also just that.

and as such, India and Indians are under no obligation to accept a 50 year old occupation of a neighboring closely allied civilization by a hostile, and an ideologically and intellectually corrupted and degraded nation of destroyers of their own culture, to the point where they've spit on the legacy of their own forefathers and ancestors.

[johneeG]

Look forward to the day when:

1. Mount Kailash & Lake Manasarovar are back in India's fold.

2. POK is back in India's fold.

3. Tibet, once again, acts as a buffer state between India and China.

This will happen when:

1. The Hindu leaders (including religious leaders) fight for abolishing caste system. The caste system has to be totally removed from the society.

2. Idol worship is removed - as idol worship promotes delusion.

3. The study of Veda and Shashtra (6 original) is promoted through education system.

Until then, India will remain militarily weak and your goals will be unattainable.

Your post makes no sense whatsoever besides being off-topic. You are linking issues that are unconnected. Taking POK has nothing to do with caste system or idol worship or Vedhas. It has everything to do with the sarkaar that is compromised and international players.

To Mr Harbans:

Shiva Bhoomi is imaginary. The entire tale of ShivJi and Kailash/Mansarovar is imaginary.

Mr Harbans need not reply. If you want to argue, face to face is needed.

To Mr RoyG:

The integration of Hindu society is the basic condition for military strength. The integration won't happen until real 'dharm' is known to people. Please read Swami Dayanand Saraswati's "Satyarth Prakash".

You read this book first, and then we can discuss.

This is off-topic. There are other threads where you can discuss these issue indepth if you so wish and there is really no need to be face to face. Infact, one may not be able to have an indepth discussion face to face.

Note the use of the word 'a-prathima'. It means 'incomparable' i.e. 'matchless'. Swami Dayananda Saraswati had argued that Vedhas oppose idolatory by citing a verse from Vedhas where the God/Goddess is described as 'not having a prathima'. He seized on to this verse and claimed that Vedhas oppose idolatory. But, the word 'prathima' means 'match'. This can be seen in Valmiki Ramayana. So, when Vedhas say that God/Goddess 'has no prathima', they mean God/Goddess 'has no match' i.e. God/Goddess is 'matchless' or 'incomparable'.

Dayananda Saraswati was working when EJs under brit patronization and macaulyte education were churning out systematic and incessant propaganda against Hindhuism by targeting idolatory. Dayananda Saraswati reacted by accepting the EJ narrative and rejected the idolatory. He tried to clutch on to the stray Vaidhik verses taken out of context and mis-interpretations.

Then, Swami Dayananda turned on the abranists and critiqued their theologies. He was the first one to do so in the raj of east india company. After that, Swami Vivekananda went ahead by going directly to West and planting Yoga there. Infact, Vivekananda targeted the the ideology of 'sin' in his very first speech in Amirkhan. Vivekananda went one step ahead and did not reject idolatory and infact, robustly defended it.

With Dayananda, Hindhuism had started reacting. With Vivekananda, Hindhuism was already on offensive. With MKG, Abrahanists reacted and tamed Hindhuism.

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[harbans]

Narendra Modi’s challenge in foreign policy will undoubtedly lie West and North of India’s borders, however the main focus of his statesmanship and vision will certainly be based on how he deals with China. Undoubtedly the biggest Foreign Policy disaster India faced was Nehru ignoring Sardar Patel and allowing China a free reign on Tibet. Though highly downplayed in the Indian media, the magnanimity of the Nehruvian blunder on Tibet is so huge that it is inevitable, that with Modi’s arrival there will soon be bitter discourse on this rusty chapter. The stance Modi takes will either elevate him to the level of Sardar Patel or more, or mark him as ordinary visionary, certainly as far as FP issues go. A further hurdle in that effort to correct past blunders, is that he will get little support from established Foreign policy mandarins schooled and regurgitated in the Nehruvian school of thought.

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With a Maoist totalitarian regime on the North and a Islamic totalitarian one on the West, Nehruvians needlessly provided physical nexus and proximity to both these countries and that too at the expense of our own troops and the blood of Dharmic kin across in the North. A large percentage of the population fled fascist jackboots including their revered leader HH Dalai Lama. The Tibetan Govt in Exile was formed in Mussoorie and now presently based in Dharmasala. They elect their PM in accordance with democratic international rules and by all ethic truly should be the legitimate recognized Governing body of Tibet.

While on coming to power it may be an almost impossible task for Modi to undo the damage which the Nehruvians and to some extent Vajpayee himself has done on the Tibetan issue, there are a few basic steps which are possible and will be suggested and analyzed in this post:

http://vicharprachar.wordpress.com/2014 ... na-policy/

[Agnimitra]

NDTV Op-ed: Narenda Modi and China, a complex equation

Reality is somewhat more complex. Both Modi and China look upon each other as long-term political challenges but short to medium term economic opportunities. The Chinese have invested in Gujarat and have invested in Modi. In 2011, Modi had a very good visit to China, with his hosts sending adequate symbolic messages in the form of security protocols that were just short of prime ministerial. Modi also met four members of the Communist Party politburo. Most senior political visitors from India meet one or two.

Chinese manufacturers have found a home in Gujarat. For instance, there is a Chinese textile manufacturing plant being built there. Among other things, it will make use of Gujarati cotton and is presented by Modi as evidence of his "farm to fibre to fabric to fashion to foreign (markets)" continuum. The Chinese have been impressed by the speed of decision making and relative de-bureaucratisation of Gujarat. They are hoping Modi will do something similar as prime minister.

The Chinese are emerging as the infrastructure providers of Asia. In terms of sheer cost savings, there is little alternative to Chinese technologies and companies. China is hoping Modi will de-clutter the telecom and power sectors in India, where it has been thwarted by the UPA government's general policy listlessness as well as the sometimes overdone scaremongering by the Indian security establishment. On his part, if Modi is to kick-start the Indian infrastructure and manufacturing story, he will inevitably find a role for Chinese business.

Where would the problems lie? Should Modi win power and settle into a robust economic programme, the Chinese will be in a dilemma: In being a participant in the growing Indian economy, are we helping a future rival? If this dilemma can keep competing Chinese stakeholders arguing and act as a brake against adventurism, nobody in India would be complaining.

However, there will be problems. More than the fastness of the Himalayas, a potential Modi-led government and Beijing would end up competing for influence in the waters to India's east: in the ASEAN region, the Indian Ocean and the Indo-Pacific. Singapore and Japan have old ties with Modi. Former Singapore Prime Minister Goh Chok Tong is a senior figure with whom Modi has a long-time association. For Prime Minster Shinzo Abe of Japan, Gujarat, as a key location in the Delhi Mumbai Industrial Corridor, is virtually a strategic partner.

Indeed, a section of opinion in Washington, DC, already sees Modi as an Abe-type figure - independent-minded and with an Asian time-table that may not always match the cautious, safety-first doctrine of the Obama administration.

A Modi who is in tune with Singapore and an Abe-led Japan, and who may strengthen maritime and strategic ties with say Vietnam or Indonesia, would leave China thinking. It is worth noting that many elements of this approach are shared by Manmohan Singh as an individual, though not perhaps by the Congress party as an institution. Where Modi would differ - should he get the mandate - is that he will be his own man.

[harbans]

Modi as a PM should invite Chinese firms and offer them a grand 25% equity for investment in India's infra. Same day should go and meet up HH DL at some function and also interact with the Tibetan PM in Exile Mr Lobsang Sangmay. Let some junior functionary start by talking about Shiv Bhoomi etc. Trade, diplomacy and a changed stance on Tibet must all go hand in hand. Same time Indian diplomats etc should start referring to Indo-Tibetan instead of Indo-Chinese border. Need to start undoing Nehruvian blunders up north even as he takes up office. Going soft in the first instance and playing the same old appeasement is neither going to buy NM respect or security. His legacy must be undoing Nehruvian ethic and blunder last 65 years.

[Jarita]

Have a relative who has taken a month off to travel to India for kailash Yatra. Right now the whole group is stuck in Nepal because Chinese government is not granting visa.
What can be more symbolic of the condition of Indics that our most sacred site is under adharmics and we have to beg and plead to visit.
The liberation of Kailash has to be one of our first goals. This is a preposterous situation.

[UlanBatori]

Mount Kailash:

The mountain is known as Kailāsa (कैलास) in Sanskrit.[1][2] The word may be derived[citation needed] from the word kēlāsa (केलास) which means "crystal".[3] In his Tibetan-English dictionary, Chandra (1902: p. 32) identifies the entry for 'kai la sha' (Tibetan: ཀཻ་ལ་ཤ, Wylie: kai la sha) which is a loan word from Sanskrit 'kailāsa' (Devanagari: कैलास).[4]

The Han took over the place by force.

BTW, the most dramatic feature of Mt. Kailas is the terraced nature: so many horizontal steps running at least along one face. Doesn't it indicate a rise from the oceans or glaciers in steps separated by long periods? It's more like to be oceans. Someone told me the difference between glacier-made valleys and river-made canyons: the glacier ones are smooth and gentle curvature, the water ones have sharp sides. So this must be a water erosion sign.
Any comments on this?

[chaanakya]

Among those, none are possible. Firstly we need a GoI which can feel its own ball$ and is confident about India's strength, till then nothing will happen, even small nations like Bhutan would prefer being in China's sphere of influence.

With confidence alone strength can be projected.

SO now we have a Govt with ball$. Tibet situation needs to be made disputed one from the settled one. GOI should simply scrap its acceptance of Tibet as Chinese territory and stake claims to it.

And Bhutan is won over by shrewd diplomatic charm visit. Nepaul is next in line. Any way it will have he distinction of becoming Indian state sooner or later. Can't allow Chinese dagger to be pointed at the heart of India.

[chetak]

X posted from the political christianity thread.

Was the Christian Vatican Originally a Temple to Lord Shiva?

[Klaus]

BTW, the most dramatic feature of Mt. Kailas is the terraced nature: so many horizontal steps running at least along one face. Doesn't it indicate a rise from the oceans or glaciers in steps separated by long periods? It's more like to be oceans. Someone told me the difference between glacier-made valleys and river-made canyons: the glacier ones are smooth and gentle curvature, the water ones have sharp sides. So this must be a water erosion sign.
Any comments on this?

Water erosion of sedimentary beds followed soon (<2 million years) by orogenic processes. The sea bed sediments metamorphise into those horizontal steps, each layer can be dated precisely to within ~10K years of being laid down. Any rock of volcanic origin (igneous) which would make up part of the structure too would have metamorphised.

[UlanBatori]

Klaus, thanks! Is there a paper on this that children can understand? I would love to have the calculation in my head as I see the next terraced mountain. Glacier National Park in Montana also has these. Also considered to be part of "recent" tectonic/volcanic activity associated with the rim of the Yellowstone Super Volcano and environs. Why those very regular steps and the distance between them, for instance. In the Out-of-India thread we (meaning i at least) have been speculating on whether there is some knowledge/experience passed down through the ages from when someone watched the Himalayas form. The "collision" may not have occurred as a continuous process at 1mm per year, it may have consisted of several large and unimaginable events followed by a gradual process. I have not quite figured out how continental plates can just "move" over the surface over essentially 1/3 of the circumference, I mean they are part of the shell of the Earth, not floating bits in the ocean. So to me, the likely explanation is that there was a series of massive collision events (asteroid-type) that sent HUGE tectonic waves around the planet, and where those waves had constructive interference, very large upheavals may have occurred. Some life may have survived, and carried the experience, which was then passed down through the ages.

For instance, during a tsunami, it is said that several forms of intelligent life have the "genetic knowledge" to run for high ground when they see the sea receding suddenly (precursor to really big tsunamis). Others have some form of sensing that senses impending earthquakes and it causes panic/distress in them. Why?

Back to this thread. Anyone have comments on how the ancients from the plains negotiated the trip to Manasarovar/Mt. Kailash (and back)? They didn't have nylon parkas and snow boots then - how did they avoid frostbite and snow-blindness? I don't understand how present-day low-country people do it, either. Also, is there any vegetation at Manasarovar? Why do birds even go there, except for the water?

[Jarita]

Looks like limited visas for pilgrims to Mansarovar this year. Thanks Chacha, not.

Friend was saying that the spiritual vibe in Nepal is gone. Nepal 10 years ago and Nepal now are very different. The Chinese influence is evident with Chinese cheap goods all over. People were very simple and graceful, now it is the hub of drugs, trafficking, you name it.
Where dharma is, the subtle beauty is. When Dharma goes, only nature and foreign trekkers remain. And this is for the heart of Shaivite Hinduism at one time. Nepal ruling family provided succor to all holy men of the subcontinent who needed protection for over 300 years.
What a mess? Our fault

[Theo_Fidel]

BTW, the most dramatic feature of Mt. Kailas is the terraced nature: so many horizontal steps running at least along one face. Doesn't it indicate a rise from the oceans or glaciers in steps separated by long periods? It's more like to be oceans. Someone told me the difference between glacier-made valleys and river-made canyons: the glacier ones are smooth and gentle curvature, the water ones have sharp sides. So this must be a water erosion sign.

See link below with a short write up on the geology of the Mountain & the area. As correctly noted the Mt is apparently formed of Cenozoic Sedimentary Limestone layers supported be a massive Granitic intrusion for the base. During the Cenozoic India had not yet collided with Asia and a large ocean, the Tethys, with coral and limestone formations lay between the land masses. Mt Everest too has a massive Limestone block for its roof.

http://www.shangri-la-river-expeditions ... hwgeo.html

Plate tectonics is a very very well understood process. The problem with any catastrophic origin process is that on large scales rock is a plastic material. There are limits to how much directional energy can be stored and transmitted. Wave energy, for instance from an earthquake, can indeed be transmitted but it does not usually result in large linear forces. Typically maximum linear movement is ~ 30 feet. Even this large movement only occurs at plate boundaries typically.

The pyramidal erosional form is the standard erosional pattern for Glaciated mountain peaks. Most erosion in this form happens due to rapid movement of deposits in large avalanches of ice & rock. Hence the steep cut in sides. When the avalanches run into the resistant Granitic base the erosion weakens hence the flared pediment. When a glacier is contained in a valley it does indeed round out the valley bottom and is very distinct from a V shaped down cutting river. But not on mountain peaks.

[Klaus]

Is there a paper on this that children can understand? I would love to have the calculation in my head as I see the next terraced mountain.

There are 2 processes (IMO they are complementary but most believe it to be an either or), tectonic shift & lateral crust displacement. Timelines for the latter are generally thrown around in the 1000's of years whereas the former is in Mya. Tectonics happen because there is a 'sea' of plastic mantle underneath the crust.

Genetic memories ingrained in DNA is a largely hidden topic, I've only been reading about it on blogs, no journals. An all-encompassing unifying theory of electro-magnetic-fluid dynamic-bio-chemical 'ism' is needed to explain what you are looking for. The nature of life is deeply connected to the nature of the interior of the planet, both are fundamentally electromagnetic.

There's apparently a lost route to Manasarover which traces the flow of the B'putra back to its source, quite a few tunnels exist in the route traversed by Tibetan monks. Not unlike the Amarnath/Vaishno Devi routes but a whole lot more clandestine, this ought to be Indian territory.

Any good book on Igneous/Sedimentary Petrology should give a good start, one may have to read it out and explain it in simpler terms to children.

[SPattath]

A wonderful travelogue on a trek to Mt Kailash and Manasa sarovar.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/travelogu ... 011-a.html

[Manish_Sharma]

Thought it's time to bring up this thread!

[VikramS]

X-Posted from Managing China Thread

The one scenario I want to discuss is IA's ability to occupy meaningful areas in Tibet.

Ideally that will involve cutting of the road/rail lines to main-land to create an island and then penetrating deep into the island.

What are the potential cut-off points which could be severed? How feasible would it be to cut them off?
Is there a ring of such cut-off points which could be created and defended?
After they are cut-off what does the IA need to rapidly move through the island?
On the Indian side of the island, where are the major PLA deployments and bases?

What would it take to hold the PLA on the other side of the island?
How to prevent a heli bridge? Can a distributed network of teams armed with anti-chopper weapons used to ward of aerial assaults?
How to blunt the impact of PLA artillery on the forces defending the cut-off points?

And to those who wonder why India has a stronger claim over Tibet?
Have a look at the Ka, kha, ga which Tibetan's use. Reminds you of anything?

[Varoon Shekhar]

Mt Kailash and Lake Manasarovar are Indians' and Hindus' most direct connection to Tibet, and that has been for at least a thousand years. It has been entirely peaceful, without even a trace of politics, let alone aggression or intrusion. The Han have no spiritual ties with Tibet or anything inside it.

[Cain Marko]

So how did the han get it's paws on this to begin with, don't tell me it's another gem from chachas legacy

[krisna]

considering the importance and the history and religious significance , should belong to india.
wonder why India never protested against illegal occupation by Chinese.

[VikramS]

[Trikaal]

We are talking about Tibetan liberation but do Tibetans want freedom ? Where is Tibetan liberation army ? Where is the insurgency ? Xinjiang has much more unrest than Tibet. A few immolations by monks does not an insurgency make. Unless people at the grassroots want freedom, as was the case in Bangladesh, no amount of fight on our part will change anything. These same Tibetans that we talk about freeing will fight us as part of PLAA. Contrast the number of Tibetans in PLAA with the number of Kashmiris in Indian army and you'll have your answers. Why should Indians spill their blood for a cause that the oppressed aren't even interested in.

[VikramS]

Why should Indians spill their blood for a cause that the oppressed aren't even interested in.

Amazing how you use the number of Tibetans employed by the PLA as an indication of how happy Tibetans are with the Chinese, a country where all speech and information is regulated.

[Trikaal]

Why should Indians spill their blood for a cause that the oppressed aren't even interested in.

Amazing how you use the number of Tibetans employed by the PLA as an indication of how happy Tibetans are with the Chinese, a country where all speech and information is regulated.

Perhaps not, but they aren't terribly sad either. It doesn't matter how totalitarian the government is, if the spark of struggle is real it comes out despite all the blankets of gag and censure. I don't want us to delude ourselves into thinking ourselves as saviors when they don't even want to be saved. Even the Tibetans on Indian side aren't exactly moving mountains for freedom struggle. Their highpoint is flag unfurling and dalai lama trips to meet ambassadors.

[VikramS]

Amazing how you use the number of Tibetans employed by the PLA as an indication of how happy Tibetans are with the Chinese, a country where all speech and information is regulated.

Perhaps not, but they aren't terribly sad either. It doesn't matter how totalitarian the government is, if the spark of struggle is real it comes out despite all the blankets of gag and censure. I don't want us to delude ourselves into thinking ourselves as saviors when they don't even want to be saved. Even the Tibetans on Indian side aren't exactly moving mountains for freedom struggle. Their highpoint is flag unfurling and dalai lama trips to meet ambassadors.

There is no delusion of being saviors. At the same time there is very little to suggest that there will be civilian resistance when the time comes.

The way the CCP-PLA gets its underwear in knots whenever the Dalai Lama does something is enough indication that at least the Chinese consider it a vulnerability.

[UlanBatori]

Could someone edit the otherwise-inspired thread title to put in the proper name for northern Malappuram, falsely called "Tibet"? This cartographic illiteracy is really disgraceful. Kailash Parvatam as we know is part of the Vadakkan Appukkutty Malayoram.