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India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby member_20292 » 10 May 2013 14:25

ravi_g wrote:

I have always wondered how a country as big as china can be as homogeneous as china? Only other set of people where we see homogeneity of such order are the ones that canabalized neighbouring sabhyatas. Only these are known and documented. How come china does not get spoken of in this regard. Their patience in the take over of Tibet is worthy of note.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wa ... death_toll

Shows clearly how much the Chinese love peaceful rises and yoga. :)

History has shown how they love to butcher and conquer. It's in their blood.

Lowest
estimate Highest
estimate Event Location From To See also Percentage of the world population[1]
40,000,000[2] 72,000,000[3] World War II Worldwide 1939 1945 World War II casualties and Second Sino-Japanese War[4] 1.7%–3.1%
30,000,000[5] 30,000,000 Late Yuan warfare and transition to Ming Dynasty China 1340 1368 Ming Dynasty 6.7%
25,000,000[6] 25,000,000 Qing dynasty conquest of the Ming Dynasty China 1616 1662 Qing Dynasty 4.8%
20,000,000[7] 100,000,000[8][9][10][11][12] Taiping Rebellion China 1851 1864 Dungan revolt 1.6%–8%
15,000,000[13] 65,000,000 World War I (High estimate includes Spanish flu deaths)[14] Worldwide 1914 1918 World War I casualties 0.8%–3.6%
15,000,000[15] 20,000,000[15] Conquests of Timur-e-Lang West Asia, South Asia, Central Asia, Russia 1369 1405 [16] 3.4%–4.5%
13,000,000[17] 36,000,000[18] An Lushan Rebellion China 755 763 Medieval warfare 5.5%–15.3%
8,000,000[19][20] 12,000,000 Dungan revolt China 1862 1877 Panthay Rebellion 0.6%–0.9%
5,000,000[citation needed] 30,000,000[citation needed] Conquests by the Empire of Japan Asia 1894 1945
5,000,000
[citation needed] 9,000,000[21] Russian Civil War Russia 1917 1921 Russian Revolution (1917), List of civil wars 0.28%–0.5%
2,500,000[22] 5,400,000[23] Second Congo War Democratic Republic of the Congo 1998 2003 First Congo War 0.06%–0.09%
3,500,000
[citation needed] 7,000,000[24] Napoleonic Wars Europe, Atlantic, Pacific and Indian Ocean 1803 1815 Napoleonic Wars casualties 0.4%–0.7%
3,000,000 11,500,000[25] Thirty Years' War Holy Roman Empire 1618 1648 Religious war 0.5%–2.1%
3,000,000[26] 7,000,000[26] Yellow Turban Rebellion China 184 205 Part of Three Kingdoms War 1.3%–3.1%
1,000,000 3,000,000 Nigerian Civil War Nigeria 1967 1970 Genocides in history 0.03%-0.09%
1,500,000[27] 2,000,000[27] Afghan Civil War Afghanistan 1979 Present Soviet-Afghan War, Taliban Era, and NATO Intervention. Death toll estimates through 1999 (2M) and 2000 (1.5M and 2M). 0.06%
3,000,000[28] 4,000,000[28] Deluge Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth 1655 1660 Second Northern War 0.6%–0.7%
400,000[29] 4,500,000[29] Korean War Korean Peninsula 1950 1953 Cold War 0.1%
800,000[30] 3,000,000[31] Vietnam War Southeast Asia 1955 1975 Cold War and First Indochina War 0.08%–0.19%
2,000,000 4,000,000[32] French Wars of Religion France 1562 1598 Religious war 0.4%–0.8%
2,000,000[33]
[dubious – discuss] 2,000,000
[dubious – discuss] Shaka's conquests Africa 1816 1828 Ndwandwe–Zulu War 0.2%
1,000,000[34] 2,000,000 Second Sudanese Civil War Sudan 1983 2005 Religious war 0.02%
1,000,000[35] 3,000,000[36] Crusades Holy Land, Europe 1095 1291 Religious war 0.3%–2.3%
600,000[27] 2,000,000[27] Soviet War in Afghanistan Afghanistan 1980 1988 Cold War 0.012%–0.04%
800,000 1,000,000 Du Wenxiu Rebellion China 1856 1873
500,000[37] 2,000,000[37] Mexican Revolution Mexico, United States 1911 1920 Pancho Villa and Columbus Raid 0.03%–0.1%
500,000[38][39] 2,000,000[citation needed] Iran–Iraq War Iran, Iraq 1980 1988 Al-Anfal Campaign and Invasion of Kuwait 0.01%–0.04%
400,000 800,000 American Civil War United States,Confederate States 1861 1865 0.03%–0.06%
300,000[40] 1,200,000[41] Paraguayan War South America 1864 1870 Military history of South America and Luís Alves de Lima e Silva, Duke of Caxias 0.02%–0.08%

KLNMurthy wrote:Rudradev, I think Beijing is after more than pinching pennies from India, their nature and methods indicate they want nothing short of vassalhood and enslavement from India. From their pov, in the worst case, if India manages to hold them at bay, they still don't lose anything more than a diminuition of their buffer.

We need to think about ways of harming core Chinese interests.


Look at the table above. A lot of the above mentioned wars in which the Chinese have lost LARGE PERCENTAGES of their populations, have been RIOTS and intra ethnic conflict.

This is their weak point.

If you want to trouble them, encourage .
1. Taiwan
2. Buddhism
3. Ethnicities to prosper and gain precedence.
4. Encourage the individual Chinese to speak up and have SOFT power. This leads to a rise
in culture of the average Chinaman. Culture leads to ethnic identity. Leads to culture. Leads to friction, leads to clashes. Leads to peaceful Indo tibetan border.
5. As above; democracy.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby CRamS » 10 May 2013 18:05

Guys, last night on TimesNow, the loud-mouth Arnab had a discussion with some diplomats and retd army officers on the Chinese incursion. As usual, Arnab was loud and blowing gas like he does at Pakis who puke all over him, but some good points were discussed.

I have worked with Chinese for most of my career in US. My bosses have been Chinese. While I would say I do have Chinese friends professionally that is, I don't see them being my bosom pals, our civilizations simply don't mix. Its like oil and water.

But I simply marvel at their sense of national identity, the united front, the single-minded crude, craven obsession to get ahead as a group, and of course, I would be remiss if I didn't complement them on their talent. Mention Tibet, you will either see those Chinese that are politically aware animated, or abject contempt as though Tibetans are animals from those who could care 2 hoots. Even their so called dissidents are dissed by the oversees Chinese at large.

This is in stark contrast to us argumentative Indians where even when an organization has tons of Indians, there are the usual groupings, back biting, and above all, more loyal than the king attitude, and dare I say even the cowardliness where their machismo is only directed against a helpless Indian colleague but abject surrender even faced with prejudice and arrogance from whites or anybody else.

So when it comes to national homogeneity and sense of national purpose, India is no match to the Han Chinese, at least that has been my observation.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Philip » 10 May 2013 19:59

Correct Lal M.With "a string of pearls",mountain pads for helos and airstrips,is the only way in which we can supply our troops until roads can be built in large enough numbers accessing he key areas on our side of the LOC. Why,we are doing the very same at Siachen! As you've said,this point is being missed by many. This also requires an immediate beefing up of our heavy helo capability-more MI-26s plus Chinooks whatever, to move heavy eqpt. first for road building,etc.,plus the supply of mil. eqpt.lightweight artillery,tactical missiles,SAMs,ammo,supplies,etc.,which can be stashed away in our forward depots and bases.For when the sh*t hits the fan,there will be precious time to supply the troops on the front.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby brihaspati » 10 May 2013 20:02

What PRC achieved was
(1) putting more muscle into those in civilian admin side wanting to reign in the IA
(2) provide excuses for political leadership and GOI admin to intervene more into IA activities in the border
(3) bring out clearly for the Chinese planners to see which sections of the admin and politics would be the weaker and more vulnerable to manipulation, or how they are likely to react in more concrete aggressions.
(4) scores in the internal chinese contests for power ongoing to the 2017-2022 phase when it is likely to come out more overtly in the open. That is a separate game but not for this thread. There is a strong group within the CPC and PLA who advocate "conquest" of the northern arc of India, and having control on both sides of the Himalayan range across the NE-SW axis, to make the still remnant difficulties of a semi porous border with India - vanish (hopefully).

From the Indian side, a mirror logic should have occurred to the brilliantly Chankyan GOI strategists - that control on both sides of the mountain range is needed for India too. But maybe the other deeper factors that force us to to "defer" to Chinese bosses hold sway here - with our FM not even having the temerity to ask the Chinese as to why "they intruded in Ladakh".

Why are we so happy to have the Chinese control the access from all across the North and eastern hinterland of the Himalayas? What are we so scared of would come in from across that direction that we hope the Chinese would hold back?

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby sanjaykumar » 10 May 2013 20:13

India has genetic diversity. Literally and figuratively. Confucian authoritarianism, Buddhism, Marxism, Maoist monsense have all fundamentally changed china.


Even the most virulent Islamist meme was restricted in India
. There was much devastation but no pandemic. Same with Christianity and the white man's burden.


Kuchh baat hai jo hasti mit ti nahin hamaari.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Rudradev » 10 May 2013 21:03

Sanjaykumar,

It's because Hinduism refuses to commit itself to an ossified program of differentiation, and retains the pluripotency and developmental plasticity to adapt to ANY sort of ecological challenge... kind of like its own inbuilt mechanisms for OSKM type induction!

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby hnair » 10 May 2013 21:42

Philip wrote:X-posted from the diplomutt td.

The price of inaction
Bharat Karnad

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/130509/c ... e-inaction


Even as the PLA is able to muster a rapidly deployable, airborne, Division-sized force at any point on the LAC within a couple of days, amassing a similar formation on the Indian side is beyond the Indian Army’s ken mainly because of the absence of motorable roads.



So Chinese can deploy a division size force that is airborne, because of "roads" and India can't because of "no roads"? Certainly Shree B Raman is not alone in reaching interesting conclusions :lol:

I think people are trying too hard to figure out this thing, which at this point, seems nothing more than a manufactured crisis which can be rather easily solved by a "neat glass of pissful resolution" that is acceptable to the electorate of peacenik-StinkyKurtha constituency, ITvity slave merchants, DCH gen etc. There will be a flurry of quick budgetary approvals for some HQs and all sides (including those who are selling us some nice, fat planes) will be happy. I suspect the CPC (not the morons at CMC, for they always outsourced thinking to their glans) is bewildered at their getting dragged into a "crisis" that they are rather inadequate to deal with, other than with CMC's help. For they have never heard the "peal of election spring thunder" over their parched lands.

The only relief is that no Indian lives were lost and that is something to celebrate these days !!

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Rudradev » 10 May 2013 21:48

hnair wrote:The chinese infrastructural superiority seem to always cause some defensiveness among Indian observers, but not necessarily the Indian military. The more the chinese build their Tibetan surface transport infra, the more they are dependent on fixed (vulnerable) infra and less on mobile (airlift).
.


Don't quite understand why? Simply having a good surface transport infra doesn't preclude their capacity to use mobile (airlift) to support logistics, it just gives them a less expensive (surface) option to use in addition. If we start hammering the roads with IAF they can still use airlift (albeit with certain restrictions if they're taking off from the Tibetan plateau itself) to supply their troops. But for us, hammering their roads from the air means spending resources on a sustained air campaign, and losing IAF assets to attrition. Good surface infra in Tibet simply provides an additional means for the Chinese to impose a cost on us.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby svinayak » 10 May 2013 22:34

Rudradev wrote:
hnair wrote:The chinese infrastructural superiority seem to always cause some defensiveness among Indian observers, but not necessarily the Indian military. The more the chinese build their Tibetan surface transport infra, the more they are dependent on fixed (vulnerable) infra and less on mobile (airlift).
.


Don't quite understand why? Simply having a good surface transport infra doesn't preclude their capacity to use mobile (airlift) to support logistics, it just gives them a less expensive (surface) option to use in addition.


The real question is why didnt they build these surface transport infra in Tibet before and only after 2002. Why not before.
They never felt the threat nor the reason to integrate Tibetians.
In 2002 India after the paramanu test, broke out of the 'south asian' region and was a direct threat to PRC. PRC now knows that it is the beginning of the end of the TIbet rule. Economic and political stability of PRC is based on peace in the borders. If this peace does not prevail then the economy which relies on external export and trade links with nearby countries will get disrupted and confidence will reduce. Borders are crucial to PRC identity and current borders does not connect with the history of the chinese people. For the PRC ruling group the border justifies their rule and it is their identity. Few people have started questioning the hold on Tibet.

PRC has built the current economy based on the fact that no other country has challenged it or its border. All its border dispute were not resolved when PRC was perceived weak and now after its economy has gained it is trying to take advantage. From a poor developing country image it is now trying to show a challenger to super power.

A country confident in its history does not rely on maps and does not derive its identity with actual borders

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Paul » 11 May 2013 01:33

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... 6.jpg.html

A measure of the infrastructural investments made in DBO....

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby devesh » 11 May 2013 03:15

sanjaykumar wrote:India has genetic diversity. Literally and figuratively. Confucian authoritarianism, Buddhism, Marxism, Maoist monsense have all fundamentally changed china.


Even the most virulent Islamist meme was restricted in India
. There was much devastation but no pandemic. Same with Christianity and the white man's burden.


Kuchh baat hai jo hasti mit ti nahin hamaari.



so, what's the point of this post in this thread?

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby sanjaykumar » 11 May 2013 03:23

It helps to read some posts before a given post.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby ramana » 11 May 2013 03:50

An American colleague of mine had hone yo visit the Himalayas from the Chinese side in early 1990s. He brought back slides of his trip. One thin noticeable was the single lane motor track from Lhasa yo Nepal border. So the infra structure is not recent but is decade old.
Also need to understand ore occupation Tibet is 1/7 of all. China.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Cosmo_R » 11 May 2013 04:14

Rudradev wrote:Sanjaykumar,

It's because Hinduism refuses to commit itself to an ossified program of differentiation, and retains the pluripotency and developmental plasticity to adapt to ANY sort of ecological challenge... kind of like its own inbuilt mechanisms for OSKM type induction!


Interesting you put it that way. Pluripotency, plasticity, OSKM all hint towards passivity. Sort of "If you don't know/care where you want to go, any road will get you there. Alternatively, in reverse Huntingtonian terms: " You cannot hate who you are unless you love what you're not."

I understand where you are trying to go with this. However, moi is more than a little disillusioned with 'chankyan' (sic) strategies that lead to an evolutionary dead end.

Much is made of the 'Indian way' (idiot Rahul Gandhi is latest non-convincing exemplar). Fact is no civilization survives playing only defense.

The Han eat everything including Tibetans (figuratively). We are (metaphorically) veg.

What are the odds of winning on goal tending penalty kicks alone?

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Philip » 11 May 2013 05:30

A friend showed me pics of the new roads,nay highways in Tibet.4 lane highways of a quality we don't possess anywhere .As one report said,the PRC can move 10 divisions to the border in the time that we would be able to move 3.Until our infrastructure improves and enw roads are built on a war footing,we will have to depend very heavily upon the IAF.The declining numbers pose a huge problem,as even the Rafale deal has yet to be signed by AKA who infamously said just a couple of weeks ago that no one could put a deadline for the signing! St."elbow fever" Anthony had better hurry up.The way his govt. is reeling under the avalanche of corruption,his window of opportunity to seal the deal is closing fast.He will go down in history as the most inept and incompetent DM ever,unable to take decisions and when told by his Army Chief of the tatra bribe offer,could only hold his head in his hands and keep quiet about it for a whole year!


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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Neshant » 11 May 2013 12:15

In future, start forming relations with Taiwan the moment they start incursions.

In any case, that is probably to the benefit of India from the economic prespective.

What can they do nothing to stop it. If they stop trade with India, it might actually be great for India as it would stimulate the manufacturing sector which they are hoping to descimate. The only thing India exports to them are raw materials and even so, the balance of trade is heavily in their favor.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby rajrang » 11 May 2013 21:30

Here is a more positive view of DM AKA - “No government in the past has done so much as this one has done in the past six years to strengthen the border,” they claimed.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=20116

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby chaanakya » 11 May 2013 21:56

Neshant wrote:In future, start forming relations with Taiwan the moment they start incursions.

In any case, that is probably to the benefit of India from the economic prespective.
.


We already have very good relations with Taiwan except for recognition as sovereign state since it would offend one china policy. Incidently , we helped China occupy UN seat vacated by Republic of China.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby RamaY » 11 May 2013 22:09

:rotfl:

1. Chinese version of border is "sanctified"
2. India should "start" relationship with Taiwan, if/when China does next incursion
3. No Govt in the past (after ruling the nation for past 10 years) did as much as we did to strengthen the border
4. Our border is like finger, their border is like a four-lane highway

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby rohitvats » 11 May 2013 23:39

vivek_ahuja wrote:Rohitvats,

I think you are always caught on the mode of why-things-are when the discussion on a certain issue is on what-they-should-be with regard to Indian Army matters. In that role you act as the anchor to prevent the discussion drifting too far off course. So need not underestimate your role here. That said, if you end up being solidly of the view that IA-can-do-no-wrong and everything-is-political-will, then it reduces the strength of your arguments as things stand today regarding IA's high moral standing. I know you back your claims with solid analysis and thoughts, and I have no reason to doubt them. And especially because of this confidence in your analysis I feel that if the day to day operations of the IA have indeed everything to do with "lack of political will and courage" etc, then the IA ceases to be any more effective than the ITBP as far as proactive defense of our borders is concerned. And that we will ALWAYS be caught on the back-foot and by surprise.


I actually waited for couple of days before responding to your post. I wanted as much information as possible about the incident to be available in public domain before commenting. And over last couple of days, there have been a couple of reports which clear the air with respect to the issue at hand.

Now, coming to points raised by you - first, it is pure fantasy to comment on 'how things should be' before understanding 'what they are'...it is very easy to draw a wish list of things but unless they are grounded in facts, it will remain a fantasy.

Having said that, did you see any 'what should be' analysis about the LAC and how IA should conduct itself in any of the posts preceding yours? All posters have done is name calling and denigrating the IA. From ramana's comments about UPSC examination producing bread-dead officer cadre to RamaY calling IA rank and file as incompetent and equating them to conduct of UPA-2 and MMS to another poster claiming to have more respect for US Marines than Indian Army. Do you see any analysis in these idiotic comments? What ever gave the right to these posters to denigrate the IA without understanding the situation on ground? Or who did what? And when questioned, people are hiding behind the tax-payer argument.

And you're accusing me for blowing the fuse here?

You spoke about IA conduct being equivalent to ITBP if it does not act proactively - well, there is a news paper report today in DNA where the IA is being blamed for being proactive in Chumar area and inviting the PLA retaliation. As usual, the GOI has launched the full battery of their media dogs to pin the blame on flare-up on the IA. The reality is that IA is proactive on the ground - it constructed bunkers and observation posts on LAC and this caused so much pain to the Chinese that they had to resort to such high-voltage antic. The fact of the matter is that it is the China Study Group (CSG) which calls the shots when it comes to LAC. And whether we like it or not, they'd want IA to behave like ITBP on the LAC. That is why the HM does not want ITBP under operational control of the IA. ITBP along with IB is the alternate route of information along with more manageable border management...the tragedy of this country is that the CSG considers IA as the culprit and keeps it out of the decision making.

Once the Chinese were discovered deep inside our side of the LAC and had set up camp, the IA deployed UAVs to keep constant track of what was going on there, where and how the PLA truck convoys were coming from and supplying the troops opposite our guys and even verified after the Chinese had withdrawn that they had done so all the way back to their own territory.


How do we know that UAV are not deployed along the LAC? There is no news item in favor or against this conjecture.

Secondly, the situation on the ground is such that you cannot keep an eye on the border on 24 x 7 basis. There are simply not enough troops on the ground for that. It is one thing to keep track of Chinese side for any large scale movement and concentration but completely different to locate a patrol of 15-20 men in that wilderness.

But the question then comes to mind is why was this technology only brought into play when the ITBP had discovered the enemy intrusion. Clearly it should have been in play much earlier to detect the incoming PLA platoon and perhaps interdict them well before they set up camp and sent a welcoming party to the ITBP post (all the way to the airstrip at DBO!!!)?


Let me ask you a question - how do you interdict?

There is a standard banner drill which is used to warn the other party but what happens if the other party does not heed the call? And continues? Do you threaten to shoot the patrol party? I don't think there are even orders to do such a thing.

The intrusions have been happening for donkey years now...and a sort of SOP has evolved for such a stuff. We don't confront and nor do they. Both sides leave behind tell tale signs of their patrol. These guys simply violated the normal protocol and squatted on the territory. What happens past that is in the realm of political decision making. And as the incident has shown, the political set-up does exercise a very firm control on how things are dealt on the LAC.

After this point, the initiative was clearly with the PLA and the matter had become a political one rather than a border intrusion that should have been prevented from happening in the first place. In other words, if the IA had plans and capability to detect an enemy intrusion as the enemy attempted to do it, then they could prevent these events from happening by putting a blocking force in front of the intruders before they did damage and before it became a political issue. And even the ITBP forces could be the blocking force if they had the surveillance info beforehand.


I am again asking this - given the number of troops on the ground, nature of terrain and the political nature of the LAC, how do you prevent every intrusion? When that intrusion is in the form of a patrol party of 10-15 men.

One way is to keep 24 x 7 track of PLA posts/camps in the area using technology to detect patrols as they leave the camps and then follow their route. And when they enter into our perception of LAC, dispatch troops to interdict them and stop them going further. However, what if they still continue to do so? Do we 'gherao' them and use fist-cuffs like how it happened on USSR/China border? Or do we have permission to first threaten the use of force and then open fire?

Whatever be the strategy, the nation and government have to be ready for escalation.The IA has very thin presence in the sector. It needs to be beefed up to take care of any contingency. If the need of the hour is to guard LAC like LOC, then we need to be prepared for putting more boots on the ground. It is not a coincidence that we don't here of such antics in eastern sector where China claims then entire AP.

<SNIP?

The point is that why is the IA almost always caught on the flat foot and by surprise along with the rest of the nation and almost always in reaction mode rather than proactive mode? If the answer to all this is political-will, then to me the IA ceases to be effective other than when the shit has really hit the fan and needs a large dirty cleanup.


Well, the latest news about the incident have shown that this is exactly how the political and bureaucratic set-up in the GOI views the IA as. Something of an outsider to higher decision making process and to be used as a security guard to clean up the mess when the worthies have run out of options.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby rohitvats » 11 May 2013 23:53

Rudradev wrote:Rohitvats, this gem is more informative and useful to me than anything else posted on this thread so far:

And what about an even greater problem: India has almost no east-west interconnectivity because of the mountains. Every sector has deployments like the open fingers of a hand, each finger proceeding up a steep, narrow valley, but the fingers cannot switch forces between them. For the Chinese that is no problem because they are on the plateau and have an excellent east-west main trunk road, plus other roads.

This has huge implications. The question of building roads, airlift capacities, ALGs, airfields etc. is a question of capability and will-- at least in theory, it can be addressed over time. However, the ramifications of the above-mentioned geography are immense.

What this sort of geography means is that when IA deploys along these valleys, it is committed. Units can go up or down the valleys but they cannot easily be transported from one valley to another. The disposition of IA units in each of these "finger" valleys is something the PLA can assess relatively early, through satellite or aerial surveillance, to get a good idea of how our strength is deployed along the front. We can reinforce units into each "finger" valley or pull them back, but not shift them from one sector to another, east to west, very quickly.

<SNIP>


It is because of this lack of lateral connectivity that IA needs to over compensate in terms of troop deployment.

Let me explain - as you rightly pointed out, we cannot move troops laterally between sectors. This means that each sector needs to be self-sufficient in terms of manpower and fire support. A similar situation is obtained on the LOC in the Kashmir sector. The roads radiate out from a central knot like a Japanese fan to each sector.

So, IA will need to invest in troops and fire power to independently defend the SSN/DBO, Chang-Chenmo+Pangong Tso, Chushul and Dhemchok sector. Adding further to the issue at hand is that the road connectivity to entire Ladakh sector hinges on NH-1A and Manali-Leh highway. These road links for sure will be taken out in any shooting match...the whole Ladakh sector needs to be treated as standalone sector and 14 Corps given more troops on ground.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby RamaY » 12 May 2013 06:35

^
Perhaps India should push the borders to the plateau area so both armies can develop support infrastructure.

On CSG, I could get limited information. It must have formed during UPA admin? Looks like CSG has 5 members led by NSA. Is this correct?
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1130427/j ... 833611.jsp
The China Study Group is framing the Indian policy on the latest border developments. The group includes the cabinet secretary, the secretaries of home, defence and external affairs and the vice-chief of army staff. Army chief General Bikram Singh had briefed the group on Thursday.


What were recommendations of IA post 1998 tests to NDA admin? Did IA seek the control over ITBP during NDA regime and what was the outcome? I am asking this question because NDA govt publicly announced that india's nuclear deterrent was mainly for China. So one would assume they thought thru potential counter movements by China right?

TIA.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Austin » 12 May 2013 07:16

I would love to live in Beijing, Salman Khurshid says

Salman Khurshid enamoured by his Chinese hosts gushed that he would "love to live in Beijing."

Days after Chinese troops were persuaded to withdraw from Depsang Bulge in eastern Ladakh, Khurshid said that he "did not do a postmortem or apportion blame" during his talks with the Chinese. "On the problem on the LAC, both countries are on the same page," he said, adding, "We don't have prickly issues of significant difference."

Describing his meeting with Chinese Premier Li Keqiang as "outstanding", Khurshid said he was met by foreign minister Wang Yi as soon as he landed, a gesture he regarded as being special. Describing Li's forthcoming visit as one of "high priority", he said the Chinese justified making India their first stop as being "carefully planned". { So was the intrusion carefully planned ...Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai :lol: :lol: }

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby pentaiah » 12 May 2013 17:57

It appears that we Indians seem to know
What problems we face
And what solutions/options we can exercise and yet we fail to do so.

In nut shell this is a Kargil all over except instead of Pakis we have Chinese occupying our lands
We vacating as per their wishes.
Rest is all blame games, and passing the buck !

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Philip » 12 May 2013 20:24

Pentaiaih,were there not several posts warning about a "Chinese Kargil" not too many months ago,saying that this was the best time for the Chinese with such a weak,spineless govt. of eunuchs led by snake-oil-Singh,who had neglected foreign affairs,defence and security of the nation as no other PM since Independence had done?

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby RamaY » 12 May 2013 20:32

pentaiah wrote:Rest is all blame games, and passing the buck !


At least the political class is honest in this. They say they are focussing on solving "this" crisis and not interested in resolving the issue altogether.

Only one party is not accepting their EQUAL responsibility and calling others ignorant and hiding behind civilian govt.

NDA govt changed the policy on defense capital expenditure so the funds allocated but not used in a year are not taken back by the govt. Since then defense forces got nearly $150b towards capital expenditure. The terrion did not change for at least 10000 years and the border did not move at least since 1962, yet the military did not develop its own logistics strategies even after going thru Kargil experience.

I wonder why we see many retired generals make love with Pakis in doing track-2/3 diplomacy but we do not see all these retired generals writing books or educating public or building a forum/constituency to change govt policy on some of these border issues.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Philip » 12 May 2013 21:12

Abuse edited out - Please Philip!!! - JE Menon

...So why didn't the quisling FM apply for political asylum while he was in Beijing?

At any time such a statement from a nation's FM would raise eyebrows.Coming just after the border situ which could've led to a serious military clash,is unforgiveable.When you also add to the quantum of betrayal,the fact that the Chinese PM,"Leaky King" is due in a few days time to India-and that China refused to apologise or say that their acts invading Indian territory by 19km was wrong,makes you wonders seriously where the FM has stuffed his brains.Up his nether end?

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby sanjaykumar » 12 May 2013 22:07

He definitely should have stayed on Beijing.

The country bumkins India chooses for its representatives is no longer an embarrassment. It is amusing to anticipate who will excell in servility, loquaciousness, and just plain unsophistication.

Well the praja is not too different. We are democracy onlee.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Pratyush » 13 May 2013 06:59

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-new ... 59257.aspx


if this is not a surrender then what is. you have one country, going all out to push us in a corner. yet we are doing all that we can to appease it.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Philip » 13 May 2013 08:08

Prat,I feel that the situ is so bad,on the Tibetan border,Ladakh and Ar.Pradesh; that China has such a massive advantage,due to a decade of neglect by the UPA/Cong,the entire truth is being kept secret from the nation with the MMS regime desperate not to annoy the PRC lest another '62 condemns it to the dustbin of history. Thus all this bluff and bluster,to appear as if we are striding the world stage like a colossus,when in fact we are crawling like a crustacean!

Even a titbit of territory occupied by the PRC from which it will not retire/retreat from will consign the UPA/Cong to a devastating defeat from which the dynasty will never recover from. The would-be Nobel "piss prize" winner-look at his cringing invitation to the new Paki "Sherrif", doesn't want his turban and dhoti blown away by a blast from the dragon.

In a few days time,like Gen. Zia in the aftermath of the assassination of Mrs.G. in which he played his part,so too will the Chinese PM,"leaky-King" come to savour his first bloodless victory after taking office,over a spineless,hapless,gutless MMS.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby svinayak » 13 May 2013 17:43

Pratyush wrote:http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/NewDelhi/Fearing-China-India-pulls-out-of-war-games-with-US-Japan/Article1-1059257.aspx


if this is not a surrender then what is. you have one country, going all out to push us in a corner. yet we are doing all that we can to appease it.

Concerned at how it would be perceived by Beijing, India last month suddenly withdrew from the planning of a naval exercise with the US and Japanese navies off the US Pacific island of Guam.


The Indian defence ministry first indicated a preference for holding the exercise off the coast of the Japanese island of Okinawa.

Then it took the view that war games should be kept to the bilateral level for the time being in deference to Chinese sensibilities. The ministry then withdrew from the discussion altogether.

"Bizarrely, the US and Japan discussed a naval exercise on Indian soil that India was boycotting," said a US defence consultant.
Indian officials say that they are only interested in bilateral naval exercises and that Malabar should be confined to exercises with the US in the Indian Ocean.

The Indian withdrawal from the trilateral exercise occurred before the Chinese border intrusion in eastern Ladakh.



Either the PLA sensed that this year exercise was a big one and tried to warn India or US India military push back is the reason for change in the geo politics. PRC is testing how India will react and how India will check out US for help during the crisis. Did they expect India to run towards US for greater mil exercise or was it a plan by US itself to see how India will adjust.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby rajrang » 13 May 2013 18:07

"The Indian withdrawal from the trilateral exercise occurred BEFORE the Chinese border intrusion in eastern Ladakh."

Each time India does China a favor, the latter kicks sand in India's face.

So, AFTER the Ladakh intrusion, perhaps India should change its mind and join the above exercise with Japan and the US. That can be one of several CONSEQUENCES to China for their recent misbehavior.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby sanjaykumar » 13 May 2013 21:22

When India is serious about getting some respect, it will transfer a few dozen Brahmos missiles to the Indo-China sea littorals. Until then sab neton ki bakwas hai.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby RamaY » 13 May 2013 21:29

^ :lol:

Please bear with me. In current crisis we heard few perspectives

1. IA was equipped, prepared and ready to give a befitting reply to PLA. The babu-class (CSG) did not agree with this strategy. Govt went with CSG recommendation.

2. IA was not equipped because there is no logistical infrastructure and equipment. We are told that it is because IA did not have money, operational freedom (to build infra and purchase equipment and so on) even if there were funds and so on.

3. IA and GoI do not even consider this a crisis to begin with for these intrusions happen all the time; and if it is any consolation Indian Army too intrudes into its own territory once in a while :P .

So kindly educate me again how having few brahmos deployed in Aksai-chin or IoR or South-China sea or even Beijing will change the perception and/or reality in any way? Even if IA/F sets up a strategic missile base in the middle of Beijing, will it change Chinese behavior as long as IA/F gets their orders from the same babu/political govt?

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Samudragupta » 13 May 2013 21:42

rajrang wrote:"The Indian withdrawal from the trilateral exercise occurred BEFORE the Chinese border intrusion in eastern Ladakh."

Each time India does China a favor, the latter kicks sand in India's face.

So, AFTER the Ladakh intrusion, perhaps India should change its mind and join the above exercise with Japan and the US. That can be one of several CONSEQUENCES to China for their recent misbehavior.


USA Mil pulled out of a joint military drill in Arunachal Pradesh last month...so is it surprising that India will not put all its eggs in the American basket...lets face it Gentlemen India as a nation does not see value addition to its international status to have a conflict with the Chinese now unless the push in the shove is unbearable....

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby RamaY » 13 May 2013 22:20

If one were to believe the information posted on this wiki page there are hardly any military procurements since 1998 (past 15 years) except for the T-90 deal, some helicopter deal, Pinaka and Mahindra jeeps.

Even in all these projects there is too long a gap between approval of purchase to actual acquisition.

Then of course the time required to absorb all the new equipment and training.

But what is the optimal time between Approval, acquisition and absorption? >15 years?

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby vivek_ahuja » 14 May 2013 03:01

RamaY wrote:Even if IA/F sets up a strategic missile base in the middle of Beijing, will it change Chinese behavior as long as IA/F gets their orders from the same babu/political govt?


Sigh.

All those shiny new weapons, inducted and in development, that has the BRFites (myself included) salivating to no end day in and day out.

And yet, no national will to use them.

What a tragedy.


Perhaps we should indeed follow what all the Canadian journalists keep harping about and spend all these billions of dollars to try and erase poverty. Sure as hell not doing us any good on the borders.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby RamaY » 14 May 2013 03:37

My sincere apologies for the disappointment sir. I thought all the $b of defense budgets and $0b of capital expenditure is to prevent this kind of national shame (or is it?), in the absence of a full-fledged Indo-China war. I would call it a national shame not because India didn't go jeehard against china but the way this issue is handled as if Indian public are not real stakeholders but the political dispensation is.

I will an example, even though it is not of military nature. We are told India's "soft power" comes from millions of wealthy and successful NRIs in the west, especially in USA. But did it help in any tangible manner in which the west behaves vis.a.vis indian interests?

Or does it take decades where as we are expecting results in few years?

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby vivek_ahuja » 14 May 2013 03:56

RamaY wrote:My sincere apologies for the disappointment sir. I thought all the $b of defense budgets and $0b of capital expenditure is to prevent this kind of national shame (or is it?), in the absence of a full-fledged Indo-China war. I would call it a national shame not because India didn't go jeehard against china but the way this issue is handled as if Indian public are not real stakeholders but the political dispensation is.


Yup. Very true.


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