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India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
prahaar
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby prahaar » 15 May 2013 13:51

From you post @Rohitvats, what I glean is the following:

India has been set up for a NPT kind of stupid cutoff dates w.r.t border infrastructure. The very moment India's political arm agrees to such BS (apparently it already did in 2005), where our own government gives away the right to do what it wishes on its own land, we have declared our own territory as disputed. We (as Indians) stand on slippery ground when stop protesting at various AFP/Reuters maps showing parts of India as disputed, when our own government gives credence to it.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby member_20317 » 15 May 2013 14:59

Great post Rohit,

Also observe the comments emanating from MEA.

...................

We Indians have to face adversity on account of some of the following propensities / realities:

1) Inability to use terrain to our advantage. Witness how the chinese imposed their wish list of removal of intrusive surveillance. Militarily IA would be very willing to go to a defensive war in Himalayas, despite the current state of infrastructure, if they get a heads-up.

2) Adverse political leadership. Witness how confident the chinese were of the political brinkmanship, sending in the bare skeletal force. Such moves will never get condoned by any military if a hot war is expected.

3) Social quirkiness. All Indians usually find themselves under a situation (for both good and bad reasons), where they have to discount history and try to build anew. OTOH the chinese come with a memory that matches Indian memory and without any of the Indian hang-ups. Indians are always found wanting to push the piss process with even the likes of BD and Pakis. This emboldens the chinese. They think they are much bigger and deserve even better treatment. Also this independence streak turns our thinking population into good analyst but poor campaigners. So the whole society fights like several independent Rajputs charging into a melee. OTOH the chinese prepare their citizen with propagandu. There is just no requirement to be a good thinker for an ordinary chinese.

Personally beats me as to how a bunch of independent thinkers and independent non-thinkers will be able to beat back a bunch of committed rats. Pied piper of India? I don't know.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby manjgu » 15 May 2013 16:43

@rohitvats..to the best of my knowledge chinese have not objected to any infra development... ( except maybe to bunkers etc at the very edge of LAC)....but nothing to what we do in our rear areas, roads. What prevents india from making good roads in Ladhak or AP?? Certainly not the chinese..... its our own crass stupidity and idiotic policies which have constrained our options today. There is no statecraft or higher direction of war/diplomacy in this country.

I am not a military men ...

while its true that China can mobilise a great no of troops and move them from the rear areas to the front and also from one sector to another... but how many troops can be brought into action in narrow valleys etc is something i would like to understand. i mean this is not the plains of kurukshetra where two armies will meet in a big plain??

I have been to few areas along the border in AP and Ladhak.... and with my limited understanding of the terrain ( and i am happy to be corrected) a 30-50 km belt along the LAC has almost similar terrain...its only that the chinese have built better roads etc and thus are in a better position militarily. IS this true and how does it limit the chinese options??

i believe with good roads on the indian side, better snooping devices, improved artillery etc. we can effectively deter the chinese.

I was discussing this issue with a Taiwanese frnd ( who is also a civilian but interested in military affairs) and he said Chinese will never attack u guys even if they are 99% sure of success. his analysis was that being chinese and the bigger power , even if there is a equal equal end result it will be big loss of face and it will be a percieved defeat for the chinese. His argument was if we can even ensure 1% failure for chinese, we have achieved our goal of deterring the chinese.

manjgu
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby manjgu » 15 May 2013 16:53

i will give an example..distance from balukphong ( which is in W Bengal and in the plains and the point where chinese came to during 1962) to Tawang is only 200 Km. if u have a good road this distance can be easily be covered in 5/6 hrs..today it almost takes better part of a day !!... u cant blame chinese for this ..can u??? and u have old woman with hammers trying to improve this road !! its not that we have to cover 1000;s of km... to reach the LAC !!

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby member_23692 » 15 May 2013 16:56

rohitvats wrote:Over last couple of days, I’ve had some thoughts on this LAC business. Please bear with me:

1.The status as obtained today on LAC is perfectly acceptable to Chinese. It accrues multiple advantages to them. First and foremost, the Chinese have bound India in multiple treaties since early 90s which are euphemistically aimed at better border and associated conflict management. In addition to these treaties, we have various working groups on border dispute and other such stuff. What these treaties do is create a false of normalcy and preserve a status quo which is advantageous to the Chinese. Chinese have steadfastly refused to share maps of their claim line or their perception of where the LAC lies. This ambiguity suits the Chinese and allows them to calibrate their actions as per the requirement.

For example, the Chinese can always claim an area which gives them military advantage (or puts us in tight spot) as per latest developments on the ground. These areas may well have not been there in claim lines of 1956 or 1960. There was a report in TOI about Chinese laying claim to certain grazing areas which were with Indian earlier. The latest incident in DBO is in same vein. On the other hand, India has gained nothing by way of these treaties. These treaties have led India on a wild goose chase where we have been made to think that these interim treaties and working groups are precursor to final border settlement. In my opinion, nothing could be farther from truth.

2.Another very big advantage of these treaties and false sense of normalcy is in terms of force commitment levels on the ground. Chinese can get away by committing bare number of troops upfront along the LAC. These Border Defense Regiments are there to simply to show the Chinese flag and carry out the border patrols. Their patrols and violations of LAC (as perceived by us) help to keep the pot boiling and keep the Chinese claims in a dynamic state.

In our effort to not rock the boat and maintain the façade of normalcy (which Indian diplomatic and political establishment believes in), we’ve reciprocated by getting the ITBP to man the border. And keep Indian Army as far away as possible from LAC. This approach allows the Chinese to get away by keeping bare number of troops on the ground.

3.There is another far more serious angle to this method of border management and false sense of normalcy. We know that Chinese have a geographical advantage in terms of their lines of communication being based on the flat Tibetan Plateau. Now, what the Chinese have done is use this ‘peace’ period to build up the infrastructure which will allow the formations to move quickly into conflict areas along the LAC. Unlike us, Chinese do not suffer from last mile connectivity.

We on the other hand have made no effort to build any worthwhile infrastructure of any kind. Tomorrow, if the push comes to shove, the Chinese can move large body of troops into these areas and stare down at us. And we’d be found wanting. The tragedy of the situation is that in case of India, the base to support a large scale conflict in Ladakh exists much closer to LAC. Leh is the center of gravity and apart from threat of missiles, is ringed by high mountain ranges which prevent any direct threat to it. What we’ve not done however, is to develop infra from this base to forward areas. Leh is the proverbial knot of a Japanese fan from where communication axis emanate to each of the four major sectors along Ladakh LAC.

Now, the Chinese want us to stop development of any infra of this sort and permanently put us on a back-foot. If we develop the road infra from this base to forward areas, we can actually go one up on the Chinese. For example, while we can play the Chinese games of maintaining lower number of troops on LAC, in case of any conflict/tension/shooting match, we can move forces faster to the border. This would be reverse of what we face against Pakistan on western border. We should have demonstrated capability of hitting out and wiping Chinese presence along Ladakh LAC and taking back Indian Territory. The forces can be maintain in rear areas and using the infrastructure, moved to LAC in double speed and whack the PLA. For example, an Integrated Battle Group (IBG) centered on a RAPID with an armored bde should be available to dash to Dhemchok and drive the PLA back to their rear bases.


Great analysis.

But why do you think the Indian ruling establishment, which includes the politicians and babus over the years have not done this analysis and come to the conclusions that you have arrived at ? It has not just been one government or one party, it has been government after government regardless of the party. Or you think that they have done this analysis, reached the same conclusions and still not acted ? And they are still not acting, except doing some things on the surface level, just for show. The strengthening of infra-structure and roads the Indian government keeps talking about is all grossly inadequate, takes a long time and what little does get built is shabbily constructed. Besides there does not seem to be any strategic and wholistic thinking behind a lot of the small initiatives that do get taken. For example, there seems to be no "war games" or "scenario mapping" type exercise or thinking in the Indian government which maps out, the various "what ifs", so that a response has already been conjured up for most if not all actions by the Chinese across our border - ranging from minor infractions to an all out two front war. Of course those responses, while pre-arrived at, can be and should be calibrated and fine tuned in every given situation, but at least the tenor, tone, strategy and tactics of that response should be to a large extent pre-decided so that any mobilization of armed forces and civilian actions can take place in advance. Not only the Indian government, but even the Indian think tanks, even defense oriented think tanks and even hawkish think tanks do not strategically think out these possible scenarios of most if not all Chinese actions and the possible and optimum responses from India, in advance. Why is it so ?

You mention in your post above, that " We on the other hand have made no effort to build any worthwhile infrastructure of any kind. Tomorrow, if the push comes to shove, the Chinese can move large body of troops into these areas and stare down at us. And we’d be found wanting. The tragedy of the situation is that in case of India, the base to support a large scale conflict in Ladakh exists much closer to LAC. Leh is the center of gravity and apart from threat of missiles, is ringed by high mountain ranges which prevent any direct threat to it. What we’ve not done however, is to develop infra from this base to forward areas. Leh is the proverbial knot of a Japanese fan from where communication axis emanate to each of the four major sectors along Ladakh LAC. "

Why do you think it is so ? Why have we not done, what we were supposed to do ? I have seen your posts on military matters and am most impressed by your intelligence and analysis. Your level of intelligence and knowledge is very high. But the analysis you have done in the above post, while totally correct, does not require an extremely high level of intelligence, and I think even low level babus can think this out and arrive at the same conclusion that you have arrived at and we all agree with. It is really a no-brainer. So, I ask again, why have we not done it ? And this is not the only time and place and occasion when our babudom and politicians have failed to do the right thing. In fact, enlighten me please, as to when they have done the right things over the past 65 years ? Very rarely. So, why is it so ?

My own view is that the ruling establishment does not find it in its interest to do these things. They are not stupid. They are however, not nationalistic at all. They dont think beyond their own personal interest - national interest be damned. So, they dont find it in their personal interest to do these things. They will only do things which are in their personal interest or those things, which if they do not do, they will be punished for. Therefore, if they dont appease the minorities, or do not perptuate reservations, for example, they will be punished by the electorate. However, when they dont safeguard our borders, they are not punished. Plain and simple. So, yes, you can blame the politicians and babus for not thinking beyond their own vested interests, for not acting like selfless individuals, but then doesnt the real fault lies with the general population, the electorate, which time and again, refuses to punish these ruling types for not doing the right things ? When the general populace is steeped in its own self interest and doesnt think nationalistically, how will it evolve, create and raise a leadership from within it which will be contrary to their own proclivities - a selfless and nationalistic group of leaders ? In other words how can a corrupt populace elect or elevate honest leaders ?

It is time, we acknowledge the hard facts and stop living in denial. Our political leadership is us. Our bureaucrats are us. Our business leaders are all us. We should look at ourselves in the mirror. The first step in cure or fixing a problem is to acknowledge a problem. In Alcoholic Anonymous meetings, people are repeatedly asked to state time and again, "I am an alcoholic and my name is Joe Alcoholic". The problem is us. We as a populace are self involved, self absorbed, non-nationalistic, non-community minded, ardent believers in instant gratification. We are like drunks, and our alcohol is instant money and power. If any of us sees any chance of grabbing, we like alcoholics, cannot resist it. We have a disease. So, when we are tempted, all our superior intelligence and analytical skills go out the window. We become worse than retards. Our IQ level goes down to below a moron, when presented an opportunity to get a free lunch, or free land or free power or free anything. We are Indians. Let us look at ourselves in a mirror.

And then, why are we surprised when we get trampled on by others, time and again, time and again, time and again, over the centuries ? Why are we outraged at our government, when it is we who are really to be blamed ? A corrupt people dont deserve the good things. A corrupt people do not deserve a strong nation. A corrupt people do not deserve territorial integrity. A corrupt people dont deserve law and order at home. A corrupt people dont deserve safety and honor for its women and children. And that, my friend, Rohitvas, is why our women get raped and our nation gets raped, time and again, time and again, time and again. And that is why, to answer a question you didnt ask, we dont build the infra-structure at the borders. We should look at ourselves in the mirror to find out who is responsible for this.

Another poster posted in this thread, that China now is three times bigger than it was a while ago and that we have shrunk is size, territorially. Well, guess what. We will continue to. And worse than shrinkage in size, we will lose our Indianness, our Hinduness, our culture. It is all eroding. Unless we fix ourselves. But the problem is that we are like children without adult supervision. And we children as sick. Sick with the disease called self-interest. Every one has and should have self interest, but in moderation and not to the exclusion of all else. When we have excess of it and to the exclusion of all else, then just like alcoholics, we become "self-interest-holics". And unfortunately, since we dont have any adults to take care of us and get us treatment, it is left for us to treat ourselves.

The real question this forum or any forum or any institution or any individual that is Indian should focus on, to the exclusion of all else, is this. How can a sick people cure themselves, when the greatest symptom and trait of the sickness is "denial" ?
Until we address that question, there is nothing else. There is really nothing else.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Austin » 15 May 2013 16:57

The constant appeasement of Pakistan over decades has hit our Foreign Policy and International standing so badly that most of the SARC nation have taken india national security interest for granted.

Even Thankless piddly nations like Maldives and Srilanka are showing us the middle finger.

The fear of China in Nations Top Leadership is truly across all party , I remember ABV told GF to STFU when he mentioned China as No 1 enemy.

The only nation in our vicinity that respects india seems to be Bhutan , No wonder they are more frequently invited as Chief Guest at our R Day parade.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby manjgu » 15 May 2013 17:04

as i read somewhere...indian is neither a good friend, nor a good enemy, we are neither good planners, nor good doers... we are good only for filling our pockets...

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby manjgu » 15 May 2013 17:08

@rsangram ..totally agree with u.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby rohitvats » 15 May 2013 18:00

rsangram wrote:<SNIP>

And then, why are we surprised when we get trampled on by others, time and again, time and again, time and again, over the centuries ? Why are we outraged at our government, when it is we who are really to be blamed ? A corrupt people dont deserve the good things. A corrupt people do not deserve a strong nation. A corrupt people do not deserve territorial integrity. A corrupt people dont deserve law and order at home.<SNIP>


What you've written applies to almost everything wrong with this country today. I don't think anyone, including me, can disagree with it.

However, what I do disagree with is this constant whining on EVERY THREAD. There is a reason we have separate threads on this forum - put in place to discuss separate subjects. And in a manner where there is a sense of continuity and a body of knowledge grows over a period of time. Forumites and other readers benefit from this informed discussion and body of knowledge and consider time well spent on the forum.

I can copy paste your post in EVERY THREAD on BRF, draw a linkage and ask people to suspend everything else and focus on only the issue(s) raised by you. No need to discuss Pakistan, China, Indian Economy, US, Afghanistan...nothing. Sort out the issue of compromised elites and ruling dispensation.

There is simply no sanity on any thread on BRF these days...everything is linked to corrupt and compromised elite and ruling class and we have series of posts decrying the same. The thread(s) loose their sanctity and very purpose for which they were created.

I want to discuss about Chinese motivations for the DBO incidents...what have they done? Why have they done it? Why did we react in the way we did? Can we do better? Future implication and stuff like that...but what does one find? Whining and constant whining...as if that is going to solve something!!!

Please educate me about one simple thing - I like to research a topic, waste time looking up multiple maps to ascertain geographical features, landmarks and implication thereof, read up reference material and try and put up some amount of analysis. If all I get to see and read are whines on EVERY THREAD, why should I make so much effort??? I want people to engage in constructive dialogue where good points are thrown up and I can go back having gained some knowledge. But that is something too much to ask for these days on BRF.

The incentive to visit, read and post on BRF gets reduced by the day!!! :cry:

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby brihaspati » 15 May 2013 18:12

rohitvats ji,
I dropped some questions. One of them was about advance operations within Tibet - for me a reasonable approach is to consider a NW and SE incursion. China in Tibet also necessarily faces a problem - the problem of the bulge. If theyc an play it properly they can destroy us. But if we can play it properly - we can stretch and encircle. It sounds a n armchair dream perhaps, but what would be the resources needed to achieve that?

member_23692
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby member_23692 » 15 May 2013 18:54

rohitvats wrote:
rsangram wrote:<SNIP>

And then, why are we surprised when we get trampled on by others, time and again, time and again, time and again, over the centuries ? Why are we outraged at our government, when it is we who are really to be blamed ? A corrupt people dont deserve the good things. A corrupt people do not deserve a strong nation. A corrupt people do not deserve territorial integrity. A corrupt people dont deserve law and order at home.<SNIP>


What you've written applies to almost everything wrong with this country today. I don't think anyone, including me, can disagree with it.

However, what I do disagree with is this constant whining on EVERY THREAD. There is a reason we have separate threads on this forum - put in place to discuss separate subjects. And in a manner where there is a sense of continuity and a body of knowledge grows over a period of time. Forumites and other readers benefit from this informed discussion and body of knowledge and consider time well spent on the forum.

I can copy paste your post in EVERY THREAD on BRF, draw a linkage and ask people to suspend everything else and focus on only the issue(s) raised by you. No need to discuss Pakistan, China, Indian Economy, US, Afghanistan...nothing. Sort out the issue of compromised elites and ruling dispensation.

There is simply no sanity on any thread on BRF these days...everything is linked to corrupt and compromised elite and ruling class and we have series of posts decrying the same. The thread(s) loose their sanctity and very purpose for which they were created.

I want to discuss about Chinese motivations for the DBO incidents...what have they done? Why have they done it? Why did we react in the way we did? Can we do better? Future implication and stuff like that...but what does one find? Whining and constant whining...as if that is going to solve something!!!

Please educate me about one simple thing - I like to research a topic, waste time looking up multiple maps to ascertain geographical features, landmarks and implication thereof, read up reference material and try and put up some amount of analysis. If all I get to see and read are whines on EVERY THREAD, why should I make so much effort??? I want people to engage in constructive dialogue where good points are thrown up and I can go back having gained some knowledge. But that is something too much to ask for these days on BRF.

The incentive to visit, read and post on BRF gets reduced by the day!!! :cry:


Yes, RohitVas. I share your pain. I, for one, will desist from what you call, "whining" in every thread from now on. Although, I would like to respond to your post.

1. Yes, you are right. If every thread becomes a thread on corruption, then all your hard work at digging up facts, looking up maps, your accumulated knowledge and your analysis kind of becomes less valued and less relevant. While, it is precisely what you are doing that has to be valued most and which is undervalued in our society in general. Honest work, with the right intentions and done by bright minds such as yours, should command a premium. In fact, what you are doing is precisely what the ruling establishment and its institutions should be doing. And I suspect there are still two or three people out of a hundred, within the babudom or the army or even a politician or two who is actually doing what you are doing and performing heroically. The problem is that all their good work, and yours, will come to nought, and merely stay in paper or electronic forums, only to be appreciated by the select few. So, it is really reduced to an academic exercise. And the ground reality will be far, far, far different from your analysis of how and what it should be. I appreciate your frustration with "whining" on this forum, but at least here, in addition to "whining", there are people who appreciate and value what you do. On the "outside", in the "real" India, no one cares about what you do. They dont respect what you do. In fact, they probably think you are a fool for doing what you do.

2. I suspect most people "whine", because of posts like yours. I can speak for myself. The trigger for my "whine" was your post. It was so flawless in its logic, so well stated, and the arguments presented so elegantly that it totally blew my mind, reminding me yet again for the millionth time, how non complicated the issue is. That is, if there is a national will to do the right things. Your post triggered in me an anger that people like you, and there are many still left in India, who are not respected, not listened to, not appreciated, and in fact marginalized. While your posts are supposed to provide for good reading and intellectual stimulation in all of us, posts like yours, in fact, now stimulate only anger and frustration. Anger and frustration at the futility of it all, futility of what you are doing in terms of its actual effect on the ground. Somehow, some of us cannot comparmentalize ourselves to where we enjoy what you write at an intellectual level even though we fully know that it will not have any effect on the ground whatsoever. The high level of your posts, your hard work, your ability is totally countermanded by a stupid disease that we all suffer from, which I call, "self-interest-holism".

3. To ask someone to enjoy posts such as yours, is like asking a terminal cancer patient, but with a totally healthy mind, why he is constantly whining, while a Satyajit Ray classic is being played on TV right in front of him ?

Like I said, I am not saying, that we should all "whine" and I have already stated, that I will refrain from linking everything to corruption from now on. If I dont have anything technical to add to the discussion, I will not say anything at all. But I ask you 1) to not characterize everything as a "whine" and marginalize the legitimate sentiments of some of us and 2) even if you feel it is a "whine" to be a little more understanding of it, as the real enemy is not the "whiners" here, the real enemy are the jaded, the numb, the apathetic, the ones who dont care, the ones who dont hurt in the face of the miserable state of our people. If even the remaining couple of hundred of us get numbed and jaded, then........well, I leave it to your imagination.

I can also characterize your posts as kind of "Don Quixote-sque", pipe dreams in the context of current reality, but I dont and I wont, because I think what you are doing is the right thing to do.

member_23692
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby member_23692 » 15 May 2013 19:43

A very clear elucidation of what exactly happened and its implications.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/News-Feed/ColumnsOthers/Chinese-checkmate/Article1-1060120.aspx

JE Menon
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby JE Menon » 15 May 2013 20:32

Thank you rohitvats, for a truly excellent post. And you are absolutely right. If this continues, BRF will be no more. It will have been systematically and deliberately degraded and destroyed and only a shell of mutually reinforcing whiners will survive. But that's OK. Everything dies. Not without a fight though :)

Speaking of linking everything to corruption, one can with equal effectiveness link everything to a good crap in the morning after tea (or coffee), as one may prefer. No corruption can be addressed until individuals have excellent bowel motions. Otherwise, decisions will be irrational, confused by a sense that one needs a dump pronto, constantly causing environmental issues (for other people mostly) and increased inclination to end difficult situations with the lubricant of under the table cash transfer. And we can carry on, in that vein.

Or may be best to just let it die. Without a fight. So what... Detachment. Very dharmic.

Yayavar
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Yayavar » 15 May 2013 22:30

I remember RayC stating that an 'undeveloped' Indian border makes it harder for the Chinese to progress. Presumably India has its ways since it is normal for IA. It might not seem a strong argument but it is an argument especially if disruption can be wreaked on those east-west roads by air.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby abhishek_sharma » 15 May 2013 23:31

>> Speaking of linking everything to corruption, one can with equal effectiveness link everything to a good crap in the morning after tea (or coffee), as one may prefer. No corruption can be addressed until individuals have excellent bowel motions.

Fairly bad point. How can you write something like that?

If many (most) Indian leaders/soldiers were suffering from bowel-related problems (or any other disease), it would be a serious problem (and it should be discussed). Is there any evidence for it? Do you read about it in newspapers everyday? I hear about corruption on a regular basis (and it significantly affects defense preparedness). Is that an importance difference? Maybe you should think about it before talking about an "equal effectiveness link".

Maybe so-called "whining" is a problem. It appears that lahori logic is a bigger problem. How about working on it?

Yayavar
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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Yayavar » 15 May 2013 23:42

True baba. But can we give it a rest and take all the crap and about crap to feedback thread? Can we focus on what is being discussed here? Rohit brings forward his analysis and instead of taking that discussion forward we have a digression to the usual corruption and babu apathy. Yes, it is a factor but repeating it a 100 times in 100 threads only disrupts any other discussion.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby JE Menon » 15 May 2013 23:45

How can I write something like that? I type with 9 fingers. Only alphabets though. For the rest two fingers. But first I have to work on my bowel motions. When I get that right only all other decisions will be right, including working on lahori logic. Plus it is a point of view. Free speech is there or not?

What is your problem if I say bowel motions must be perfect for all politicians (before corruption can be controlled) and Indians. You ask for evidence. Are you shyamd (no offence shyamd, just lifting a local "meme")? Do you know that posting under an alias is frowned upon?

That is the sort of post that is dominant on the forum. And this is how a forum gets screwed up. This is why admins keep saying think before you post. This is why participants must be responsible. Otherwise, it is very very easy to go the bowel route and exit like musharraf.

Dont jump on bait. Now back to topic and read rohitvats post...

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby putnanja » 16 May 2013 07:57

South Block watch

...
Hence, South Block mandarins were left scratching their heads about the source who advised various MEA officials and even the PM to explain away the Chinese incursions as a “localised issue” and “acne” which could be cured by the ointment of dialogue. Foreign diplomats handed the briefing were aghast at India’s attempt to trivialise such a border violation. While the defence establishment favoured a strong rebuff, the invisible adviser counselled the government to show restraint and offer an apologetic justification for the amicable resolution to the standoff. Those who manage foreign policy made sure that pliable opinion-makers accepted their formulations that a solution could be found only after giving a face-saving exit route to the Chinese. The first briefing made it seem China had dismantled its five tents after India decided to remove its posts from the other side. Though a vague clarification followed, the damage was done. A five-decade-old convention of following the Line of Perception was broken and India accepted the revised border management mechanism it was opposing. India indirectly accepted that it was equally responsible for morning walk incursions as the Chinese.
...
...
But of late, the NSC has been packed with individuals who have personal interests to protect and have hardly made any contribution to formulating policies. After the China fiasco, the Congress leadership advised the Prime Minister to review the NSC’s composition and get rid of globetrotting members who are using the body to promote personal agendas. The leadership is particularly livid with some members writing signed articles in the media. Nothing is more comical than an NSAB member outlining options available on dealing with the recent border standoff with China in a newspaper article.
...
...
The UPA government takes pride in hawking its tech-savvy image. Most of its departments are active on the official website, providing details about officials and decisions. But the NSAB is an exception. Even after spending hours, one is unable to locate or glean even basic information about the board’s composition, its sub-committees and such elementary information on how many times in a year do these bodies meet. Neither the PMO’s nor the NSAB’s website are of help. A telephone call to a senior functionary elicited sweet words but no information. The only explanation could be that it allows NSAB members to use their visiting cards to peddle themselves as spin doctors for the government in the media and at international forums
...
..

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby member_20317 » 16 May 2013 10:22

Arre this thread was meant for political aspect of the problem. The aspect that creates the problem.

For the tech stuff shiv ji had opened a separate thread and none of the apolitical guys who complaint on all the threads of the forum went there. Saala every political sun of a gun went and tried his best to support shiv ji in his venture.

Too bad if 6 ghante baad 4 tent 10/19 km inside the line of perception still do not force a detente between MOD & MEA. OTOH this could be just some smart diversionary tactic to fool he world, Indian establishment having solved the problem for good. Or I could just be a CT guy.

What kind of counter factual world is this. The secular media goes to town showing how chinese are out to 'teach India a lesson'. Then they go to town showing how the ashraf in shining armor saved our collective chidras. And in wonderland the cat has no body to this day.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby rsingh » 16 May 2013 18:21

putnanja wrote:South Block watch

...
Hence, South Block mandarins were left scratching their heads about the source who advised various MEA officials and even the PM to explain away the Chinese incursions as a “localised issue” and “acne” which could be cured by the ointment of dialogue. [b]Foreign diplomats handed the briefing were aghast at India’s attempt to trivialise such a border violation.[/b] While the defence establishment favoured a strong rebuff, the invisible adviser counselled the government to show restraint and offer an apologetic justification for the amicable resolution to the standoff. Those who manage foreign policy made sure that pliable opinion-makers accepted their formulations that a solution could be found only after giving a face-saving exit route to the Chinese. The first briefing made it seem China had dismantled its five tents after India decided to remove its posts from the other side. Though a vague clarification followed, the damage was done. A five-decade-old convention of following the Line of Perception was broken and India accepted the revised border management mechanism it was opposing. India indirectly accepted that it was equally responsible for morning walk incursions as the Chinese.


...
...
But of late, the NSC has been packed with individuals who have personal interests to protect and have hardly made any contribution to formulating policies. After the China fiasco, the Congress leadership advised the Prime Minister to review the NSC’s composition and get rid of globetrotting members who are using the body to promote personal agendas. The leadership is particularly livid with some members writing signed articles in the media. Nothing is more comical than an NSAB member outlining options available on dealing with the recent border standoff with China in a newspaper article.
...
...
The UPA government takes pride in hawking its tech-savvy image. Most of its departments are active on the official website, providing details about officials and decisions. But the NSAB is an exception. Even after spending hours, one is unable to locate or glean even basic information about the board’s composition, its sub-committees and such elementary information on how many times in a year do these bodies meet. Neither the PMO’s nor the NSAB’s website are of help. A telephone call to a senior functionary elicited sweet words but no information. The only explanation could be that it allows NSAB members to use their visiting cards to peddle themselves as spin doctors for the government in the media and at international forums
...
..


Which foreign diplomat ? IIRC there was pin drop silence in so called "world community". And if foreign diplomats were aghast does it imply that they wanted to see a fight? If GOI managed to get to the status quo (15th April) without war ,that is great.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby SSridhar » 16 May 2013 18:59

Austin wrote:The only nation in our vicinity that respects india seems to be Bhutan , No wonder they are more frequently invited as Chief Guest at our R Day parade.

Last time, they were magnanimous enough to come at short notice after the goof-up with the original guest.

The Chinese are making (or, attempting to make) steady inroads there too.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby ramana » 16 May 2013 20:18

If Prabhu Chawala had posted that article on this forum it would have been condemned as Conspiracy Theory.



South Block Watch

Mind the Language

In the armoury of diplomacy, language and selection of words have pride of place. Over centuries, diplomatic engagement has come to mean delivery of messages couched in dignified courtesies—in a way the intended recipient understands its spirit and purpose. Diplomats over the world are taught to disarm counterparts with warm hugs and pleasant words. Moreover, the colour of the message is dictated by the level and venue of the dialogue to avoid damage to the relationship. Explanations, strong or frivolous, are handed out only in exceptional situations. Hence, South Block mandarins were left scratching their heads about the source who advised various MEA officials and even the PM to explain away the Chinese incursions as a “localised issue” and “acne” which could be cured by the ointment of dialogue. Foreign diplomats handed the briefing were aghast at India’s attempt to trivialise such a border violation. While the defence establishment favoured a strong rebuff, the invisible adviser counselled the government to show restraint and offer an apologetic justification for the amicable resolution to the standoff. Those who manage foreign policy made sure that pliable opinion-makers accepted their formulations that a solution could be found only after giving a face-saving exit route to the Chinese. The first briefing made it seem China had dismantled its five tents after India decided to remove its posts from the other side. Though a vague clarification followed, the damage was done. A five-decade-old convention of following the Line of Perception was broken and India accepted the revised border management mechanism it was opposing. India indirectly accepted that it was equally responsible for morning walk incursions as the Chinese. How and why India’s wise diplomats sorted out the standoff is another story.

{Note the absence of plural for the Rasputin character. Means there is only one hidden hand and not a cabal guiding the UPA foreign poolicy. Reliance on single person is a recipe for disaster. Recall BN Mullick's role in 1962 fiasco}


Security Hazards

Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee’s decision to set up a National Security Council (NSC) and National Security Advisory Board (NSAB) after the Kargil war was well thought out. The NDA government found that various defence establishments and foreign policy wonks were not on the same page on operational issues. The NSC was expected to offer the political leadership sound sectoral and strategic advice backed by professional and technical inputs. Vajpayee instructed his National Security Adviser to pick the best brains from defence, diplomacy and academia to collate information and provide a comprehensive assessment of the security scenario. But of late, the NSC has been packed with individuals who have personal interests to protect and have hardly made any contribution to formulating policies. After the China fiasco, the Congress leadership advised the Prime Minister to review the NSC’s composition and get rid of globetrotting members who are using the body to promote personal agendas. The leadership is particularly livid with some members writing signed articles in the media. Nothing is more comical than an NSAB member outlining options available on dealing with the recent border standoff with China in a newspaper article. While it is entirely the government’s prerogative to determine who should be appointed as a member of NSAB or its sub-committees, those concerned with the vanishing credibility and effectiveness of India’s strategic policies feel a review is needed to define the desired qualifications and work experience of NSAB members and, most importantly, safeguards to ensure that the system is insulated from undesirable elements.

{If Congress is worried about NSAB composition then who determines the composition? A bunch of fellow travelelrs in PMO who appoint the ususal suspects?}

Top Secret.com

The UPA government takes pride in hawking its tech-savvy image. Most of its departments are active on the official website, providing details about officials and decisions. But the NSAB is an exception. Even after spending hours, one is unable to locate or glean even basic information about the board’s composition, its sub-committees and such elementary information on how many times in a year do these bodies meet. Neither the PMO’s nor the NSAB’s website are of help. A telephone call to a senior functionary elicited sweet words but no information. The only explanation could be that it allows NSAB members to use their visiting cards to peddle themselves as spin doctors for the government in the media and at international forums. For instance, a recent incumbent who has just retired did not have even a nodding acquaintance with strategic issues, let alone any hardcore experience. Some credible officers like Vijay Nambiar were packed off prematurely to the UN. Another officer, Satish Chandra, was denied an extension. Yet another diplomat, Alok Prasad, who reportedly did not get along with the NSA, was dispatched as ambassador to Japan. Some ministers have already demanded full disclosures about the qualifications of various NSAB members and asked the PMO to direct all those who write for the media or appear on TV to either resign or disclose their relationship with the NSAB.

{So my comment on PMO role in NSAB selection was right!}

Retire Unhurt

The government’s decision to give yet another term in office to N N Vohra, Governor of Jammu and Kashmir, was widely viewed as appropriate and in the best interest of the state. The decision, however, dampened the hopes of several other aspirants—including a few in the PMO, along with the Deputy National Security Adviser. They were expecting any one of them to go to J&K so that others could move up the ladder. But they haven’t lost hope of extension. Deputy NSA Latha Reddy may move on to higher responsibilities, clearing the way for any of the other retiring Foreign Office mandarins. Among those in the running are serving secretary Sudhir Vyas, recently retired Ambassador to Paris, Rakesh Sood, and some others. Going by past experience, the primary qualification for the post would be—like the Foreign Secretary—a high level of ideological compatibility, functional comfort and acceptability to those who call the shots on security and diplomatic matters. Watch this space.

prabhuchawla@newindianexpress.com



Elsewhere I had said that govt officials in political positions see themselves as still being in their old cadre based service. As such there is no accountability for their actions. Just as in the Mughal Durbar.

The MMS run PMO/NSAB reminds one of the "Corps of Forty" during Farukh Siyar's rule!

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Philip » 16 May 2013 21:58

The posters right have it right.The manner in which we have appeased Pak all these years,unceasing cross-border terror,NO action whatsoever to punish Pak in the aftermath of 26/11,etc., has only emboldened China to carry out its expansionism in the subcontinent without any fear or favour whatsoever of retribution.There was a piece by a veteran journo,that years ago Indira Gandhi spoke favourably of the possibility in the future of peace with Pak,but NOT with China,because she said "China is an expansionist power"!

Thus China has like soldier ants ,relentlessly surged forward "chewing up" Indian territory as she pleases.Salman-the-Cursed might be willing to accept "China up his backside",he is such a servile lackey of the Middle Kingdom,that he deserves to be put on trial for treason,

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Philip » 18 May 2013 08:03

A BJP politico from Ar.Pradesh has said that we ,India that is,should accept "stapled visas" for residents of Ar.Pr. who want to visit China.Thus far the GOI has refused to allow Indians to travel on such visas.The politico says that allowing "stapled visas" is a comedown for the Chinese.However,this brings up a very important point.The use of stapled visas for Ar.Pr.-what the Chinese call (S.Tibet) then acknowledges the disputed status of the territories which are Indian.If the Chinese can issue stapled visas for Ar.Pr.then why can't the Indian govt. in return,do the same for all Chinese living in Upper India-otherwise known as Tibet?!

The GOI should be absolutely firm upon this and if we do not want any of our citizens to travel on stapled visas then NO Chinese living in Tibet should be allowed into India.Already the pro-China quislings are coming out of the woodwork in the usual manner,on the eve of the visit of "Leaky-King".

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby shyamd » 18 May 2013 16:42

ramana wrote:Elsewhere I had said that govt officials in political positions see themselves as still being in their old cadre based service. As such there is no accountability for their actions. Just as in the Mughal Durbar.

The MMS run PMO/NSAB reminds one of the "Corps of Forty" during Farukh Siyar's rule!

Forget NSAB - even the Cabinet has donkeys who think we should give up N weapons and have made ridiculous suggestions (some that will make you bang your head against the wall). West still struggles to know who controls our security policies.

As for NSAB - it has some serious people like ex intel/armed forces types and it has your editors of news rags (N Ravi & co). Chairperson is Shyam Saran - we all know his important roles particularly nuc related and his influence in some MEA policies today.

Parts of Prabhu Chawla's article isn't factually correct, some comments unfair.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby SSridhar » 18 May 2013 18:08

Philip wrote:A BJP politico from Ar.Pradesh has said that we ,India that is,should accept "stapled visas" for residents of Ar.Pr. who want to visit China.

That's why we must remember that the ultra-nationalist party is as clueless and dhimmi as any other.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Vayutuvan » 19 May 2013 01:15

I need a recommendation (+ve or -ve) on the book "Himalayan Blunder: Angry ..." by Brig. J. P. Dalvi. Is it worth spending the time to read the 500+ page book to get a good understanding of the 62 war and possible trajectory of the current skirmish? If it is not that great (Amazon has mixed reviews - the older edition which is listed used for $750.00 has 4 stars and the newer one with subtitle of Curtain raiser has only an avg 2 star with one Mr. Biswas trashing it thoroughly - I am a little confused are they two different versions or the same? I already requested the older 1970 edition fro our library). I trust BRF members more than anybody on these matters hence the request.

TIA

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby rohitvats » 19 May 2013 01:45

matrimc wrote:I need a recommendation (+ve or -ve) on the book "Himalayan Blunder: Angry ..." by Brig. J. P. Dalvi. Is it worth spending the time to read the 500+ page book to get a good understanding of the 62 war and possible trajectory of the current skirmish? If it is not that great (Amazon has mixed reviews - the older edition which is listed used for $750.00 has 4 stars and the newer one with subtitle of Curtain raiser has only an avg 2 star with one Mr. Biswas trashing it thoroughly - I am a little confused are they two different versions or the same? I already requested the older 1970 edition fro our library). I trust BRF members more than anybody on these matters hence the request.

TIA


Please go ahead and buy the new print. I've that book and IMO, it is a must read for anyone wanting to understand the situation on ground.

However, please be advised on one important point - Brigadier John Dalvi was Bde Commander of 7 Inf Bde which was wiped out at Namka Chu in the opening phase of the war. His book has been written mostly from the perspective of his experience in this regard. While the book gives interesting insight to working of political and military leadership before and during 1962, the context is broadly in relation to his experiences.

In my opinion, there is no single book which tells the tale of entire war; for example, this book will not give details of war in far east in Walong or Ladakh Sector.

But a must have for anyone wanting to understand the 1962 affair.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Vayutuvan » 19 May 2013 02:30

Thanks Rohit ji. I remember my dad speaking highly about it when it came out. I am getting the older (1970) edition from our uni library.

There is also another book neither the title nor the authors of which I remember except that some general idea of the book from the blurb and preface I had read in passing at one of the local free public libraries - surprising to find it in a small town library - back in 1992. It is definitely not JP Dalvi's book - that much I remember. What I remember from that quick scan was that the book chronicled the 1962 Sino-Indian conflict sourced from GoI and IA's extensive records. The authors extended special thanks to GoI for unrestricted access to its records. They could not get any kind of cooperation from the Chinese who gave them no access even after repeated requests. Their wry concluding comment was that we would never know what the Chinese thinking and objectives were. On the other hand they wrote that they were greatly impressed with GoI's openness and they way they came forward to give access.

As I was busy with my qualifying exams at that time I did not check it out thinking I will come back later. After several years I went back and could not locate neither the book nor even the section of the library where I found the book. Since I remember next to nothing about the book probably it would be impossible now to know what that book was.

The usual practice of the free public libraries in around here is to conduct yearly sales where they sell withdrawn books - books which have not been checked out in the last 5 years. One strategy for PIOs is to periodically check out books on India. Even if one simply wants to browse do so at home rather than at the library. That way these books will be on the shelves longer. Another thing to remember is that most university libraries have a policy of increasing the collections of specific sections (Asian section has Arabic, Persian, all Indian languages, Chinese, Korean, Japanese subsections with separately maintained borrowing stats) where there is more borrowings. I always try to encourage community members to check out books from the Uni library. "boond boond mil ke samundar banta hai" etc.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby rohitvats » 19 May 2013 02:44

^^^I also don't have any idea about the book you've mentioned. On Dalvi's book, one should buy and read that book simply for heroic account of 7 Infantry Bde who knowingly went into the jaws of death. One more thing - I think the leaked copy of 1962 Official War History is listed on BRF. Please download the same for reference. Makes for very good read. Indian official historians have been very candid and forthright. Especially, please read the section about war in north in Ladakh Sector. It will show you how the same IA leadership which faltered in NEFA did a sterling job in Ladakh. The lack of political leadership along with officers with more spine and vision was a key factor.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Vayutuvan » 19 May 2013 03:11

"1962 Official War History" - Is that in the main BR book store (lancer publishers site) or one of the BR forum threads or BRF archives? Thanks.

I tried "1962 Sino-Indian War: Declassified CIA Documents" archived thread. None of the links are working. Will dig through BRF archives.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Austin » 19 May 2013 05:56


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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby sanjaykumar » 19 May 2013 06:22

^
In recent years, both sides have been resorting to what is being described as “aggressive patrolling” along the LAC. The Chinese side has not taken kindly to the new military airports being constructed by India adjacent to the LAC and an increase in Indian troop numbers. The latest incident, according to the Chinese side, was triggered by the infrastructure build-up and construction of bunkers by the Indian military in the Fukche and Chumar regions of Ladakh.

There was an agreement in 1996 between the two countries to keep a ceiling on troop levels along the LAC. A 2005 border protocol signed between the two countries also bans the construction of permanent structures in disputed areas. The construction of structures in a disputed area led to the latest incident. According to reports, India has agreed to address some of China’s concerns about permanent structures being put in southeast Ladakh’s Chumar area. The Indian Army had put up forward observation posts and bunkers and deployed surveillance equipment in the area.

The Army’s build-up along the LAC started in the middle of the last decade. Two new mountain divisions were created to defend Arunachal Pradesh and three Air Force bases were created for the deployment of Su-30s in Assam, along with several batteries of Akash missiles. Eight Advanced Landing Grounds were refurbished along the LAC to facilitate easy landing of a heliborne force.


The Army has announced plans for the creation of a mountain strike force to be put on the ground by 2017. The Chinese side could have been more worried by the Army’s deployment of two additional infantry brigades in south-eastern Ladakh. Advanced Landing Grounds have already been activated by the Army in Daulat Beg Oldi.

China had offered a draft proposal to India in April suggesting that both sides freeze their troop levels along the LAC. India already has more troops than China along the border. The Indian Army, however, argues that the transport infrastructure China has across the LAC makes it easy for it to move troops at short notice to the border. Indian troops, on the other hand, have to depend mainly on air transport to move around the rugged Himalayan terrain.

Beijing may not be viewing the recent event in isolation. It is warily watching the evolving strategic and defence relationship between India, the United States and Japan. The latest crisis has coincided with the Barack Obama administration’s “pivot to Asia” whose unstated goal is to contain the rise of China to the status of a leading global power.

As Indian and Chinese military officers were meeting at the LAC to resolve the latest border tangle, India, the U.S. and Japan held their latest round of trilateral dialogue in Washington, the fourth so far.


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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby manjgu » 19 May 2013 07:10

JP Dalvi's book is a gem !! and a true and honest a/c of events leading up to 1962. Maybe u r not aware that the book was banned when it was published initially and only a kannada version of the book was available !!

i) even in 1962 the defence minsiter said that it was 'localised' ..does it ring a bell?? fastforward to 2013 !!
ii)yes men promoted over deserving officers...BM Kaul ( who wanted to become PM after his tenure in the army)...does it ring a bell?? good officers harrased and careers destroyed? Manekshaw court maritaled, Gen Umrao singh, Verma all left in disgust. fast forward to 2012...VK Singh/Gen Bikramjit Singh ! political interference in Defence matters...
iii) political leadership having no sense of national honour and pride...higher direction of war..

some things never change !!

another good book is by Gen Palit..

Yes, we were better in Ladhak but there was well we were beaten on all fronts and had to retreat again due to the similar reasons... Jp Dalvi's book itself tells the story abt how ill equipped and under prepared were soldiers in Ladhak. only at places where the soldiers were sited well, did we offer good resistance.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby ramana » 19 May 2013 07:17

ramana wrote:Official History of the 1962 war

Read Chapter 10 Review and Reflections

And send copy to the GOI.



matrimc, For you.



ramana

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby chaanakya » 19 May 2013 10:24

manjgu wrote:
iii) political leadership having no sense of national honour and pride...higher direction of war.. .


You forgot one thing. Tainted Saint from Gods own country just like V.K.Krishna Menon in 1962.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby Philip » 19 May 2013 11:24

...not to mention the National Security Adviser,one Menon...Shiv Shankar by name!

It is zimple how history is repeating itzelf,the first time as tragedy,the second time as farce! If you examine the top babus in the corridors of power,you will see a string of coconuts all round the PMO from GOC.

Meanwhile our trespassing neighbours are vociferously denying on the eve of the visit of their premier,"Leaky King",that the Middle Kingdom are setting up a "string of pearls" in the Indian Ocean. We are supposed to take it with a pinch of ajinomoto and forget about Gwadar,Hambantota,et al.

One interesting piece of news though.It appears that there is some friction between the Burmese junta and the PRC,who have started supplying (through Laos it is alleged) MI-8/17 helicopter gunships to the Burmese rebels. The PRC is alarmed at the warming of ties between Burma and the west.An excellent opportunity for India to seize the day.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby ramana » 19 May 2013 21:17

Its now turn of PRC to show inner Pakistaniyat against India. They dnt have non state actors as their PLA as the biggest non state actor.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby rohitvats » 19 May 2013 23:05

manjgu wrote:<SNIP>
another good book is by Gen Palit..

Yes, we were better in Ladhak but there was well we were beaten on all fronts and had to retreat again due to the similar reasons... Jp Dalvi's book itself tells the story abt how ill equipped and under prepared were soldiers in Ladhak. only at places where the soldiers were sited well, did we offer good resistance.


Jury is still out on role of Major General Palit - He was DMO during the war and only reason he escaped the cleaning process was because he knew 'too much' and of his knowledge of the workings of top echelon. His conduct in 1965 war was also not too great.

As for Ladakh - we got beaten but it was not a rout of the kind witnessed in AP. What happened in AP was a blot on the institution of Indian Army and inspite of the valiant battles fought by various units, it was a rout. A formation like 4 Infantry Division with glorious history disintegrated. It was road marched from NEFA to Allahabad as punishment and for a very long time was called the 'punishment' division for the ignominy of 1962.

Compared to above, 114 Infantry Bde in Chushul fought as a cohesive formation. Even their withdrawal was as a cohesive fighting formation. As it is, the military planners knew they could not stop the Chinese in current position and with the troops/firepower at their disposal. They expected PLA to deploy tanks from Spanggur Gap area and consequently got an AMX-13 troop airlifted using AN-12 to Leh. The plan was to defend Leh and for this, the plan called for holding the passes in mountain ridges forming a semi-circle around the town. Western Army Command disregarded orders from AHQ and reinforced Ladakh sectors with addition troops; this when AHQ orders were not to touch troops from Pakistan border.

Same goes for the battle of Walong where, inspite of the situation on the ground, the bde commander went on offensive to seize the initiative and continued to be on offensive to stem the PLA tide.

In both the above cases, Indian Army leadership did not abandon its role and responsibility and provided the leadership that was required. There is no shame in loosing a battle...but honor should never be compromised. There is a reason that French Foreign Legion celebrates Dien Bin Phu as one of their finest hours.

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Re: India-China War 2013 - Trigger: Incursion into India

Postby RamaY » 20 May 2013 06:27

^ could you please throw more light on that 4th division story?

My search shows that the Henderson-Brooks report, submitted in mid-1963, is yet to be made public and many hundreds of soldiers died of cold with no bullet wounds and no bullets in pouch.

What was the reason for their punishment post war?

Thanks


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