Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

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Anujan
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby Anujan » 19 Aug 2013 22:05

The news is credible. Also more intense than reported.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby wig » 19 Aug 2013 22:35

Nawaz Sharif says Kashmir is a national issue and jugular vein of Pakistan

excerpt
Kashmir is a "national issue and the jugular vein of Pakistan" and its resolution is as dear to him as other Pakistanis, Sharif said in his first address to the nation since assuming office in June.



http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 920350.cms

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby Prasad » 19 Aug 2013 23:55

If they're doing these many cross-border firings, surely they must have a staging area full of idiots waiting to cross the border. Cant we take a few pictures via satellite and plaster the frontpages with them? Oh wait, aman ki asha wouldn't like that. Right then. Fire on boys.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby member_22872 » 20 Aug 2013 00:10

What use are those pictures? Prasad garu, you are forgetting that you are dealing with TSP. These are the guys when presented with soild proof of Kasab as their own citizen, asked us to shove it up. Now they will say that those black and white IR images are own troops crossing into "their territory". No point in showing them any proof, just pound them, they don't understand any other way....don't even reason.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby MurthyB » 20 Aug 2013 00:15

The pictures would be useful if also followed by seeing them dispatched for their 72. In that video, it's too bad you only see them walking around, and also not footage of them being blown to smithereens.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby shyamd » 20 Aug 2013 00:24

http://www.timesnow.tv/videoshow/4434787.cms

Enjoy folks... Paki bunkers are halal'd by yeevil Yindu troops on TSPian Yindeependance day. :lol:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby Prasad » 20 Aug 2013 00:29

Picture splashing followed by neutralisation of said 'staging areas' by cruise missiles onlee saar. Otherwise what use of said pictures? Nice before/after montage it'll make methinks.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby member_26255 » 20 Aug 2013 01:02

shyamd wrote:http://www.timesnow.tv/videoshow/4434787.cms

Enjoy folks... Paki bunkers are halal'd by yeevil Yindu troops on TSPian Yindeependance day. :lol:


Very nice video :D . The reporter says that the firepower of the Paki's was not match for IA.
What kind of of weapons do Paki's have in bunkers and how do they match to the IA?
Can any Guru throw some light on this noob question.

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Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby Peregrine » 20 Aug 2013 01:34

Looming threats : Even medium rainfall can unleash floods in Sindh, says PRF report

KARACHI : Sindh is under threat of the fourth consecutive flood and if the torrential rains continue to hit parts of the province and the water level increases in the Indus River, several areas would be inundated and unprecedented damage could occur – leading the government to declare emergency in upper and lower areas of Sindh.


Cheers Image

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby Karan M » 20 Aug 2013 01:55

agastya wrote:
shyamd wrote:http://www.timesnow.tv/videoshow/4434787.cms

Enjoy folks... Paki bunkers are halal'd by yeevil Yindu troops on TSPian Yindeependance day. :lol:


Very nice video :D . The reporter says that the firepower of the Paki's was not match for IA.
What kind of of weapons do Paki's have in bunkers and how do they match to the IA?
Can any Guru throw some light on this noob question.


Both sides should have access to similar stuff (MMGs/HMGs/RPGs) and arty on call, but what was interesting was that the IA wheeled out L70s, put them in bunkers and attacked the Pak bunkers. So clearly ATGMs are not being used (range/LOS/wire fouling issues?), RPGs are too short range.. and this gave the IA the edge.

http://www.armyrecognition.com/sweden_s ... heet_.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_20_mm_cannon

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby Karan M » 20 Aug 2013 02:02

Also collateral damage was mentioned as a factor...so IA clearly did not want to engage in arty duels (potential to kill some TSP civilians whom the army would have gleefully paraded to internushunal media as atrocities etc). Instead, they positioned L70s and hammered the posts to bits. Good show.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby Karan M » 20 Aug 2013 02:03

Anujan wrote:The news is credible. Also more intense than reported.


Any more details? This was long overdue.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby Rudradev » 20 Aug 2013 03:35

SSridhar wrote:CRS, I really appreciate you for that letter you have sent. If the Professor comes to know about your post, he may break off. Your dialogue with him would be valuable.

'Facing India with dignity' or 'We should not allow India to over run Pakistan' have been standard refrains from the US and the UK.


CRamS, I too commend your untiring efforts at writing to people like Uneven and Unfair... even if I remain skeptical about the potential consequences.

Meanwhile, SSridhar and CRamS: shouldn't we recognize all the diplomatic piffle about "Facing India with Dignity" for the sheer nonsense it is? Even the idea that State Dept or DOD "babus" are somehow emotionally invested in arming Pakistan as a "counterweight to India" sounds dubious to me. Yes, they may offer these sorts of excuses, but I can't help thinking that the primary motivation of the US is entirely economic. One major clue to this lies in Sirohi's article itself:

http://www.firstpost.com/world/why-is-u ... 42879.html


Pakistan military’s liquidity may astonish some, given that the country’s economy is in dire straits and is constantly mortgaged to the IMF. So how did they do it? Well, it was rather elementary. The US has transferred humongous amounts of money to Pakistan since 2002 leaving enormous scope for fiddling the books.

The gravy train is called the Coalition Support Funds (CSF), which is actually meant to “reimburse” Pakistan for its “operational and logistical” support to US troops. On this train came $10.7 billion as of June this year.

Call it the great train robbery – the money was paid against actual (overinflated) invoices with little oversight. Most of this money likely came back to the US in the form of “Pakistani national funds” to buy the advanced weapons. These couldn’t be funded through US government programs because they were so blatantly inappropriate for fighting terrorists that even the most expanded American definition of “counterterrorism” couldn’t justify them.

The18 new F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft with advanced avionics valued at $1.43 billion and already delivered probably came from this liquidity.


The US government is not like the Indian misgovernment.

The US government takes every step necessary to shore up its economic recovery. A big part of that recovery depends on large-scale job creation. To create jobs you need your industries to be flush with orders. The arms manufacturing industry is the biggest of all US export sectors; so it's very obvious what has happened here and why.

The Coalition Support Funds -- Pakistani National Funds route is nothing but a hawala network for the US government to feed its OWN industry without any supporters of laissez faire crying foul. Likewise, every military item the US has given the Pakis as part of its $20B aid package allows a large fraction of that aid money to be funneled back into its OWN industry. QED.

We can cry foul about the US' "hypocrisy" all we want (some of us actually still accuse the US of "stupidity" in not seeing what an evil and duplicitous ally Pakistan is.) In fact, there is no stupidity whatsoever, and while there is plenty of hypocrisy in the US position, merely pointing out something so obvious will not do us a bit of good. In the end the US is prioritizing its own economic interests over India's security interests, and we would be foolish to expect otherwise, no matter what sorts of words or phrases are used by Washington in its justifications.

I say again, there is limited (if any) utility in highlighting these sorts of justifications offered by State Dept and DOD for the continued arming of Pakistan. The only answer is to pursue our own economic growth vigorously, and develop or purchase our own defense hardware... until perhaps, some day, we grow to the extent where we can actually use our economic clout itself to forestall the US arming of Pakistan.

Right now we're at the opposite end of the scale. While growth implodes, and the rupee (along with every marker of fiscal confidence) nosedives to unplumbed depths, EVERYBODY thinks they can get in a kick at us without any fear of repercussion. Forget China and Pakistan; Iran is happily impounding one of our oil tankers. Forget Italian marines; even Sri Lankan navy personnel routinely massacre our fishermen in the Palk Strait. Forget Bangladesh and Nepal; even the tiny Maldives and Bhutan have indicated that they're not interested in blindly toeing New Delhi's policy directives any longer. And, even when Muslims are allegedly persecuted in Thailand, Burma and Sri Lanka... in which country do the Jihadis feel safest about striking back with "retaliatory" terrorist attacks?

Under the Manmohan-Maino regime, we are universally despised, mocked and spat upon.

In this situation, trying to engage US scholars or policymakers about the "hypocrisy" of their attitudes is only good for another global laugh at our expense... reminscent of the speeches Krishna Menon used to make at the UN while we relied on Western food aid to prevent our citizens from starving.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby Karan M » 20 Aug 2013 03:54

Rudradev, its not just economic shoring up of domestic industry. Let me explain..

Please look at the specific weapons sold/donated to Pakistan. TOW2A - specifically anti-ERA versions when there was much talk of Cold Start and India importing T-90s en masse (its a different matter that these may not work that well...lets leave that out for now). The Harpoons - again with P3Cs et al, which had no role versus the Taliban. Similarly, the F-16s came with AMRAAMs and specific PGMs, some of which were clearly meant for counter-air strikes against Indian AFB. Basically, they were targeted specifically at Indian interests.

Point is these systems were selectively chosen and then released to Pak, and attempting to blunt the Indian response and also prevent US tech from going off to the PRC (the dance around is pretty obvious - the PRC has mastered Active RF BVR missiles, so AMRAAMs to Pak were ok, and would go with safeguards and checks) BUT AIM-9X (which uses a fancy new seeker ) which PRC has no equivalent to - was not. Similarly, the F-16Cs sold to TSPAF are all Block-50/52, judged to be a pain to India, but 1Gen behind what Khan is making for itself. Its another matter that these F-16s now are of limited use 1 to 1 vs the Su fleet we have. But by giving them a robust A2G platform, the US basically gave them a face saving means to hurt India in turn.
Also, in recent news, Pak finally got DRFM equipped EW pods for its Vipers. These may or may not work against Indian AD, but basically, it will embolden Pak to use some of its Vipers for the N role as well.

Last but not least, the $10B they got as CSF, is what allowed Pak to purchase 3 Erieyes (2 reportedly banged up by bad Taliban, oops), 3 PRC AEW&C, some 500 Al Khalids, 3 Agostas, and umpteen NVG/Arty/comms upgrades plus fund the initial odd 3 squadrons of JF-17.

Basically, the US funded the rearmament of the Pak Mil.
Plus, there is now news that Pak ramped up its n-program as well.

Again, this is thanks to the above largesse. $10 Bn goes a long way.

Now why is highlighting these issues material. I would argue, that CRamS is doing a yeoman job. A) It tells how hypocritical the Khan is each time their flunkeys like Cohen tut tut us and talk peace and ask us not to escalate things - as you correctly point out but also B ) By constantly signaling this and tying this to Indian purchases (or lack thereof) of US gear, we may actually influence transfers to (or reduce them) to TSP if US conglomerates realize that these free donations hurt their prospects to India.

However, instead of any hard nosed deals, we appear to have opened up to purchase anything and everything American, to salvage the N deal (our great PMs fondest baby).

I agree with you saar, that if India grows strong, we can overcome the above. And totally agree with everything else you have said - a weak GOI has made India a target for anyone and everyone.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby klein » 20 Aug 2013 04:54

My apologies for being OT. I am looking for a youtube clip that one of the jingos here made about Indians being SDRE and pakis being TFTA.

Does anyone here have the link ?

Thanks a lot.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby SSridhar » 20 Aug 2013 05:34

If the US assesses that the IA damaged the TSPA so much in retaliation, they will supply more arms to them " to fight India with dignity" or to "stop IA from over running the TSPA".

US is part of the problem and it cannot therefore be a solution for TSP.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby Cosmo_R » 20 Aug 2013 05:49

Rudradev wrote: In this situation, trying to engage US scholars or policymakers about the "hypocrisy" of their attitudes is only good for another global laugh at our expense... reminscent of the speeches Krishna Menon used to make at the UN while we relied on Western food aid to prevent our citizens from starving.


Could not agree more. Our principal export since 1947 has been hubris.

I am always amazed (and I should no longer be) when I meet (in passing) the GoI mucky mucks and babus on the loose in NYC/DC. Shades of VKKM!

Condescension drips from large aristo noses pointed skyward when asked simple questions in a polite manner. There's one tall man in particular who does this with practice. Others are imitative.

And when Mickey the flying sikh hits NYC in September for his tryst with Nawaaz, the crew will once again be there.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby Nandu » 20 Aug 2013 06:21

From the chairman of the UN unit that investigated Bibi's assassination. One thing he makes clear is that the hosing down of the crime scene was a deliberate attempt to destroy evidence.


http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ ... ith-murder

al Qaeda gave the order; the Pakistani Taliban executed the attack, possibly backed or at least encouraged by elements of the establishment; the Musharraf government facilitated the crime through its negligence; local senior policemen attempted a cover-up; Bhutto’s lead security team failed to properly safeguard her; and most Pakistani political actors would rather turn the page than continue investigating who was behind her assassination.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby Prem » 20 Aug 2013 06:42

MUSLIM ZION: Pakistan as a Political Idea
Al Qitab Begot AlQaida:Tabb Hua Pakistan Paida

Pakistan is, like Israel, an ideological state. Take out the Judaism from Israel and it will fall like a house of cards. Take Islam out of Pakistan and make it a secular state; it would collapse.”

By the time he uttered these words in a 1981 interview with The Economist magazine, Pakistan’s president Zia-ul-Haq was simply mouthing a stereotype. For Zionism had long provided a model for Muslims who sought to carve a new state out of India. Over the course of the nineteenth century, after all, European Jewry had come to represent the archetypical minority for states that were increasingly being defined as the property of their national majorities. Pakistan’s founders routinely invoked the history of non-Muslim minorities, and particularly the Jews, rather than comparing themselves to other Muslim peoples. So in Pakistan and Muslim India, a pamphlet published in 1943 with a preface by Mohammad Ali Jinnah, the man who would become Pakistan’s father, we read that “if small peoples like the Protestant Irish in Ireland, the Christian Arabs in Syria and the Jews in Palestine do not wish to lose their separate political identity, and are supported in this desire for separate existence by two of the foremost democratic nations, there is no reason why Indian Muslims should be forced to accept the position of a minority.”
Given its identification with non-Muslim groups, Pakistan is in some ways not part of Islam’s modern history. Although it was the world’s first Islamic republic, then, Pakistan is also the only country to be created on the basis of Islam alone, just as Israel is the only state to be founded on that of Judaism. And in fact the similarities between these two otherwise very different and even opposed states are striking. Both were created as homelands for dispersed religious minorities; both were conceived by politicians and supported by populations from beyond their borders; and both emerged from bloody partitions supervised by Britain.
Indeed Pakistan’s creation in 1947 was cited as the legal precedent for Israel’s founding a year later. Sir Muhammad Zafrulla Khan, Pakistan’s representative at the UN, tried to deny this similarity, pointing out that the majority of his country’s population was already Muslim before partition, and painting Jewish immigrants to Israel as foreigners. But the partition of India was a far more violent affair than that of Palestine, involving millions more dead and displaced; while Muslims emigrating to Pakistan often originated from much further distances than Middle Eastern Jews proceeding to Israel, and unlike the latter shared neither language nor culture with its existing inhabitants.Yet before their achievement of national homelands, Jews and Muslims were something more than minorities scattered across the vast subcontinents of Europe and India. This was why Zia, in describing Pakistan and Israel as founded on self-conscious ideas rather than inherited prejudices, recognized that they had abandoned the old-fashioned nationalism of blood and soil. It was this kind of nationality, after all, that had done so much to make groups like Jews into suspect minorities. These new countries, then, sought both to join and escape a world of nation states, which in Europe were defined by the romantic myth of a continuous and immemorial link with the land.
Pakistan and Israel are “ideological” states, as Zia put it, founded, like America and other New World countries, not on heredity but the mobility of ideas and peoples. And it is this that also makes of them international entities. For both states claim to represent not simply their own citizens, but all Europe’s Jews or India’s Muslims, with co-religionists from elsewhere at least theoretically capable of joining either nation. The anonymous author of Pakistan and Muslim India, therefore, invoked the idea of a national majority only to internationalize it, by stating that “The Indian Muslims who form one fourth of the total population and number 90 millions are in their opinion comparable to minorities in European countries or even to the Jews who are scattered all over the world.”

At the same time as these minorities were struggling to become majorities in their own homelands, they were also losing their national character within a novel internationalism. Described by their enemies as a Jewish conspiracy or pan-Islamism, this international identity linked European Jews and Indian Muslims to the emergence of new forms of intellectual and political mobility in the wake of the First World War. It is their modernity that makes these nations so distinctive, preventing them from regressing to Europe’s blood-and-soil type of nationalism.
Such conventional forms of nationality are instead characteristic of minority populations in both countries: Hindus, Sikhs and Christians in Pakistan and Christians and Muslims in Israel, whose claims to autochthony stand as a challenge to both the Jewish State and Islamic Republic. For whatever emphasis is put upon the land these new Muslim and Jewish populations have won, both debate and resolve their nationality by a question that in effect divests the nation of its state: who is a Jew and who a Muslim?–

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby partha » 20 Aug 2013 07:42

SSji, did you read this article from NYT? Look at the bolded parts.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/A-summer-of-troubles-saps-Indias-sense-of-confidence/articleshow/21915107.cms

A summer of troubles saps India’s sense of confidence
Gardiner Harris & Bettina Wassener, NYT News Service | Aug 19, 2013, 09.43 PM IST


Meanwhile, the country's bitter rivalry with Pakistan continues. Many analysts say that India is unlikely to achieve prominence on the world stage until it reaches some sort of resolution with Pakistan of disputes that have lasted for decades over Kashmir and other issues.

Gardiner Harris reported from New Delhi, and Bettina Wassener from Hong Kong.


Many analysts all over the world say that journalists Gardiner Harris and Bettina Wassener are on the payroll of Pakistani agencies.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby SSridhar » 20 Aug 2013 08:36

partha wrote:SSji, did you read this article from NYT? Look at the bolded parts.

A summer of troubles saps India’s sense of confidence
Meanwhile, the country's bitter rivalry with Pakistan continues. [b]Many analysts say that India is unlikely to achieve prominence on the world stage until it reaches some sort of resolution with Pakistan of disputes that have lasted for decades over Kashmir and other issues.

Partha, I didn't read that NYT article. That kind of assertion, even if it is true, may be only partially true. India has other issues to tackle with as well, which also sap our confidence.

But, this was the game plan of the UK and the US anyway (joined by China later on). Haven't the British been interested in fragmenting India ? How can their creation, Pakistan, be satisfied with Kashmir alone even if the issue is settled completely to its satisfaction ? The Pakistani list of 'issues' with India is growing by the day. Such a thesis by the above authors (even if they are not on ISI payroll) is surely to incrementally devastate India, starting first with Kashmir and later moving to other issues. So, why are they complaining about India ? Didn't Nixon & Kissinger encourage Mao & Zhou to attack India ? Didn't Nixon & Kissinger exchange rather contemptuous and intemperate references to India with Maozedung and Zhou Enlai ? Was it not the unholy US-China-Pakistan nexus that forced India to do Pokhran - I ?

In terms of natural affinity, it must be India and the US that must have been partners for a long time now. Both are liberal, secular, democratic and powerful nations. Why did the US choose the one-way street with Pakistan ? Even if Cold war strategies were a reason, the continuation of that policy at the direct and immense cost to India after the 1990s easily reveals the agenda. It is the same unholy trinity of US-China-Pakistan that is targetting India yet again. The US may be playing a more nuanced role within the alliance now, but the effect is more or less the same for India.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby abhijitm » 20 Aug 2013 09:13

Many times I see that in fact India and China are the natural allies. We are much to share and cherish than us and US. If only India and china can set the differences aside and work towards a win-win strategy...

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby habal » 20 Aug 2013 10:40

If you liken the US-India relation through the allegory that US & China are both in awe of the serpent of the Garden of Eden than Adam & Eve. Even when smooth sailing can serve their purpose, a country like US is intent on creating trouble & increasing discord alongwith animosity, hatred, insecurity, economic instability etc. Which can only mean that India surely doesn't understand US at a deeper level.

While there is deeper understanding and agreement between China & US on crucial issues besides having a discreet & deep admiration for the philosophy of the snake.

And India's role is piece-meal and applying band-aid and the occasional suture fix. There isn't a long-term vision, mainly because we have left many tempting loose ends or we have many rogues within who constantly reassure US foreign policy that any deeper level understanding really isn't necessary or productive.

Our military philosophy of importing essential stores of even basic stuff like Artillery, naval munition, torpedos, ATGMs, RPGs, lukewarm policy on Anti-material rifles etc show any western spectator that we are hardly serious about a decisive conflict to settle any event to our advantage. We are just a bunch who are content with moving along, just surviving from day-to-day, the US treats us like how they would treat any scaredy pansy, constantly whining, non-euro attention-seeker who are semi-serious to non-serious about defending themselves or finishing off any aggressor. Who can't develop military independence ? Have no national self-esteem and are willingly branded under labels of caste and poverty. It is enough that they can buy off a few key players like ministers and bureaucrats and for the rest mouth platitudes like India is a 'natural partner' and 'potential superpower' (yawn) to keep the rest tickled and in good humor. Bus ho gaya unka Indian foreign policy.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby Lilo » 20 Aug 2013 10:57

This is as good time as any for India to conduct a series of nuke tests, let there be show of intent that India doesn't require any FDI bubbles to buttress its rise and that we won't get blackmailed on our core interests.
Then as some one in another thread pointed out - change our NFU policy to use of tactical ones in case of a two front conflict thrust on us or otherwise.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby Philip » 20 Aug 2013 12:22

Are we now going to see a modern version of the great WW2 film,"the Great Escape",starring Gen.Bandicoot as himself,the Paki army in its thousands and what's-her-name "Heinous" Rabbani Cur as Bibi, what? Like a good old Western,it will be the "pure" Pakis vs the Injuns,with the cavalry coming to the rescue of Gen.Bandicoot,riding tanks not horses! What are the odds against gen. Kill-Any becoming Pak's next CMLA?

Benazir Bhutto death: Pakistan ex-president and army chief Pervez Musharraf charged with 2007 murder of prime minister
Decision by marks the first time Musharraf, or any former army chief in Pakistan, has been charged with a crime

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 75473.html


A Pakistani court has indicted former president and army chief Pervez Musharraf on murder charges in connection with the 2007 assassination of iconic Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto, deepening the fall of a once-powerful figure who returned to the country this year in an effort to take part in elections.

The decision by a court in Rawalpindi marks the first time Musharraf, or any former army chief in Pakistan, has been charged with a crime.

Musharraf, who took power in a 1999 coup and stepped down from office in disgrace nearly a decade later, now faces a litany of legal problems that have in many ways broken taboos on the inviolability of the once-sacrosanct military in Pakistani society.

He has been charged with murder, conspiracy to commit murder and facilitation for murder, said prosecutor Chaudry Muhammed Azhar.

The former army commando appeared in person during the brief morning hearing, and pleaded not guilty, said Afsha Adil, a member of Musharraf's legal team.

Bhutto was killed in 2007 during a gun and bomb attack at a rally in the city of Rawalpindi, the sister city to the capital of Islamabad. Prosecutors have said Musharraf, who was president at the time, failed to properly protect her.

The judge set 27 August as the next court date to present evidence.

Musharraf returned to Pakistan in March after nearly four years outside the country and vowed to take part in the country's May elections. But he has little popular support in Pakistan and ever since his return has faced a litany of legal problems related to his rule.

He has been confined to his house on the outskirts Islamabad as part of his legal problems, and was brought to court Tuesday amid tight security.

In addition to the Bhutto case, Musharraf is involved in a case related to the 2007 detention of judges and the death of a Baluch nationalist leader.

He's also faced threats from the Pakistani Taliban who tried to assassinate him twice while he was in office and vowed to try again if he returned.


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby SSridhar » 20 Aug 2013 12:38

As I see it, dark clouds are gathering for India. This is India's own making by being soft on Pakistan over the last six decades.

The American calculation here is different perhaps. India was flying the NAM flag until the 1962 debacle shook her up and Nehru went running to the US. The recent cooling down in the India-US relationship in spite of the subservient incumbent government is not to the liking of the US. All said and done, India is not gifting away Kashmir to Pakistan. India is unable to open up the economy freely for the US companies. The US also wants India under a tight leash until 2014 or early 2015. Possibly always even thereafter. The US may therefore feel that only an incident similar to 1962 will push India firmly into its lap. It may therefore not be averse to encouraging these two nations (as it did in c. 1971 with China) for some adventure against us.

Both China and Pakistan have a different reason, perhaps. They have decided to jointly coerce India for their respective and mutual benefits. They may see a small window of opportunity before 2014. It was as a prelude to that the Chinese was possibly gifted away GB and Gwadar. The Chinese intrusions in Ladaakh are ominous from that point of view. I see two possibilities here. Either the Chinese and Pakistani forces would join together in an attack on Ladakh. Or, the Ladakh incursions are diversionary tactics for the Chinese to strike either in the middle sector or in Arunachal. The extraordinary hurry with which China wanted India to sign the BDCA with it (we do not know what provisions that GoI is agreeing to) is a pointer, IMHO.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby ArmenT » 20 Aug 2013 12:46

Philip wrote:Benazir Bhutto death: Pakistan ex-president and army chief Pervez Musharraf charged with 2007 murder of prime minister
Decision by marks the first time Musharraf, or any former army chief in Pakistan, has been charged with a crime

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 75473.html

Big question is will he or won't he have an appointment with a lamp post? Is Nawaz Sharif going to return the favor by deporting Mush to Saudi?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby Lalmohan » 20 Aug 2013 13:21

ssridhar - imho china will not directly invade, but position troops as a cover for a pakistani attack - ladakh/siachen/kargil
this gives them complete plausible deniability and hides behind the cashmere issue

india's best option is to stoke the fires in baluchistan and afghanistan

thinking little wider here - where does china sit on the syria/iran (shia) question?

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby Skanda » 20 Aug 2013 13:32

Are you kidding me?

‘Re-virginising’ in a tube: ‘Purity’ for sale at Pakistani pharmacies

One of the names is hard to forget, ‘B-Virgin’, the package displaying a youthful girl smiling at white flowers. I admit there is the potential for dark humour given the name; instead it just makes me very sad. This is the message we are giving our girls, our women.

“Don’t be true to yourself; instead invest, medicate and fake it so your partner can be satisfied with how pure you are.”

And the purity in question is not an adjustable scale – it is a binary. If intact, you are pure. If not, then tough luck.

While none of these ointments or suppositories can achieve biological ‘re-virginising’ nor are they meant to, they are widely used and marketed as a solution to lost virginity. Unfortunately for the women of our culture – not all virgins will bleed. The artificial measures taken might also not produce the desired proof. Not even hymenoplasty.


Un-edited, this belongs to the BENIS dhaga

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby Lalmohan » 20 Aug 2013 14:24

^^^ finally the riddle of the never ending supply of 72's is solved!!

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby Peregrine » 20 Aug 2013 14:57

Skanda wrote:Are you kidding me?

‘Re-virginising’ in a tube: ‘Purity’ for sale at Pakistani pharmacies

Un-edited, this belongs to the BENIS dhaga


Skanda Ji :

Even Laanbi Laanbi Tarkariyan aur Fahoosh Subzian are not allowed!

No bananas and moolis, please!

However, they have not found a way to stop the "Lady Finger" (Bhindi) from "Entering" the Kitchen!!

Cheers Image

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby harbans » 20 Aug 2013 15:01

The Chinese intrusions in Ladaakh are ominous from that point of view. I see two possibilities here. Either the Chinese and Pakistani forces would join together in an attack on Ladakh. Or, the Ladakh incursions are diversionary tactics for the Chinese to strike either in the middle sector or in Arunachal. The extraordinary hurry with which China wanted India to sign the BDCA with it (we do not know what provisions that GoI is agreeing to) is a pointer, IMHO.


Sridhar Ji, i too have thought of that. But one more factor may be at play here. Chinese want to mark out territories deep inside India before a change in Govt. They would have calculated a NM led dispensation may no longer be soft. They will try and 'fix the rules' by which the Border Management takes place before the dispensation changes. Once they get us to sign a BDCA that is on CHinese terms it will be very different for the next dispensation to change formats. What this current MMS dispensation does must be very carefully monitored and got to public notice. If they have come to the assumption that this is a very GoI they may even have the gumption to launch a feint kind of attack at ArP or elsewhere. These deep incursions were some kinds of response tests cum territorial markers. Akin to what dogs do,,pee at points to be claimants. However any thing we do at the border is just a temporal kind of firefighting arrangement. The only option we really have to get the Tibet question bang back on the table. MMS does not have those guts. NM might have if he faces these kind of everyday Chinese incursions. The weakness of the present set up is not buying us peace, it is inviting war on us. And the bully says if you don;t want that sign on this agreement here and here..We have to be ultra careful what's being signed up in the run up to the polls.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby SSridhar » 20 Aug 2013 16:36

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ finally the riddle of the never ending supply of 72's is solved!!

:rotfl:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby CRamS » 20 Aug 2013 18:07

SSridhar wrote: All said and done, India is not gifting away Kashmir to Pakistan.


SSJi, I used to hold onto this steadfastly, but since 26/11, and more broadly, the manner in which a politically significant section of India's population shun any sense of nationalism, means that I don't see any way out of the current morass with TSP until India does indeed gift away Kashmir.

Just look at cold facts. It bears no repetition that TSP is brazen now its terror as state policy strategy. The spit on us.

Next, look at the arms and nuke build up in TSP as AfPak draws to a close (ref: Seem Sirohi's article). As we stand by helplessly, US pivotal end game in AfPak is exactly what the late Holbrooke was embarking on, namely, India making concessions to TSP on Kashmir. They tried coercing India, and when that didn't work, its the enhanced military strategy of arming TSP now.

Thus, in the current circumstances, except for killing a few pigLeTs of the 1000s and 1000s at TSP's disposal, I doubt India can give a crushing blow to TSP which is the only solution to make TSP behave. Or else as you said the obvious, TSP thrives in a perpetual state of dispute with India.

Then, we have significant sections in India who are either apathetic or downright hostile to Kashmir being part of India. India itself seems without an identity. Tell me, in which self respecting country, calling itself a country that is, where you have one major body politic that represents 50% of not more of a 1.2 billion people considers Narendra Modi, and Hindus as a bigger threat than the relentless decades and decades of Isalmic terror unleashed on India. India's fault lines along caste are its bane here, and MMS & his western handlers are exploiting that to the hilt.

Thus, if tomorrow, just as MMS surrendered post 26/11, he were to brazenly offer some crap like joint India TSP ownership of valley as a start to gifting away Kashmir, do you think he will face any opposition in India except for some rants by Arnab Goswami on TimesNow (where he will call Pak "guests" to piss on him and India?).

The US scripted game I see unfolding is TSP making some "movement" on 26/11 which is all that MMS wants as a political cover, and MMS giving a good deal to TSP on Kashmir. I see no strong enough opposition in India to counter this. The only sliver of hope I see is ironically the Cong govt itself, the few in the party with some sense of nationalism, patriotism, honesty, and self respect as Hindus and Indians who can prevent MMS from such a sell out.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby manjgu » 20 Aug 2013 19:21

well said CRamS...!! i hope i am not alive the day this sort of thing happens. :((

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby abhijitm » 20 Aug 2013 20:51

shyamd wrote:http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/intercepts-of-pak-responding-to-firing-along-line-of-control/287434?ndtv_videorhs_t_icon_2

See the video released by IA of response to paki ceasefire violations

NDTV should never be allowed to come near to any sensitive military or research location. I don't trust them at all. They are full of paki sympathizers. Very risky.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby Dipanker » 20 Aug 2013 21:06

CRamS wrote:
SSridhar wrote: All said and done, India is not gifting away Kashmir to Pakistan.


SSJi, I used to hold onto this steadfastly, but since 26/11, and more broadly, the manner in which a politically significant section of India's population shun any sense of nationalism, means that I don't see any way out of the current morass with TSP until India does indeed gift away Kashmir.

Just look at cold facts. It bears no repetition that TSP is brazen now its terror as state policy strategy. The spit on us.

Next, look at the arms and nuke build up in TSP as AfPak draws to a close (ref: Seem Sirohi's article). As we stand by helplessly, US pivotal end game in AfPak is exactly what the late Holbrooke was embarking on, namely, India making concessions to TSP on Kashmir. They tried coercing India, and when that didn't work, its the enhanced military strategy of arming TSP now.

Thus, in the current circumstances, except for killing a few pigLeTs of the 1000s and 1000s at TSP's disposal, I doubt India can give a crushing blow to TSP which is the only solution to make TSP behave. Or else as you said the obvious, TSP thrives in a perpetual state of dispute with India.

Then, we have significant sections in India who are either apathetic or downright hostile to Kashmir being part of India. India itself seems without an identity. Tell me, in which self respecting country, calling itself a country that is, where you have one major body politic that represents 50% of not more of a 1.2 billion people considers Narendra Modi, and Hindus as a bigger threat than the relentless decades and decades of Isalmic terror unleashed on India. India's fault lines along caste are its bane here, and MMS & his western handlers are exploiting that to the hilt.

Thus, if tomorrow, just as MMS surrendered post 26/11, he were to brazenly offer some crap like joint India TSP ownership of valley as a start to gifting away Kashmir, do you think he will face any opposition in India except for some rants by Arnab Goswami on TimesNow (where he will call Pak "guests" to piss on him and India?).

The US scripted game I see unfolding is TSP making some "movement" on 26/11 which is all that MMS wants as a political cover, and MMS giving a good deal to TSP on Kashmir. I see no strong enough opposition in India to counter this. The only sliver of hope I see is ironically the Cong govt itself, the few in the party with some sense of nationalism, patriotism, honesty, and self respect as Hindus and Indians who can prevent MMS from such a sell out.


MMS is in the minority govt. so he can't give away Kashmir even if he wanted to of which I have not seen any indication of.

I can understand your anxiety related US+UK support to the Pakis on Cashmere, but that has been going on since 1948, nothing new about it. We have always known their stand. It hasn't worked in the past, I don't see why it will work now.

The only way the Paki can get Cashmere is by military means and given the the difference in size of the two country I don't see how Pakistan can win. A few billions $ from Uncle Sam can't bridge the 8 fold gap.

India can handle the pigs and the pigLets on the border. In the end they all end up dead, by last estimate 50+ thousands of them and counting. Yes we have paid our price but that the price we must pay if we want to defend our border. Just keep hitting back hard as the army has done in last week. If they want more, bring it on! The fact of the matter is Paki can't afford to escalate. Pinpricks is all they can do and price of doing that is only going to go up.
Last edited by Dipanker on 20 Aug 2013 21:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby Rudradev » 20 Aug 2013 21:06

Karan M wrote:Rudradev, its not just economic shoring up of domestic industry. Let me explain..

Please look at the specific weapons sold/donated to Pakistan. TOW2A - specifically anti-ERA versions when there was much talk of Cold Start and India importing T-90s en masse (its a different matter that these may not work that well...lets leave that out for now). The Harpoons - again with P3Cs et al, which had no role versus the Taliban. Similarly, the F-16s came with AMRAAMs and specific PGMs, some of which were clearly meant for counter-air strikes against Indian AFB. Basically, they were targeted specifically at Indian interests.

Point is these systems were selectively chosen and then released to Pak, and attempting to blunt the Indian response and also prevent US tech from going off to the PRC (the dance around is pretty obvious - the PRC has mastered Active RF BVR missiles, so AMRAAMs to Pak were ok, and would go with safeguards and checks) BUT AIM-9X (which uses a fancy new seeker ) which PRC has no equivalent to - was not. Similarly, the F-16Cs sold to TSPAF are all Block-50/52, judged to be a pain to India, but 1Gen behind what Khan is making for itself. Its another matter that these F-16s now are of limited use 1 to 1 vs the Su fleet we have. But by giving them a robust A2G platform, the US basically gave them a face saving means to hurt India in turn.
Also, in recent news, Pak finally got DRFM equipped EW pods for its Vipers. These may or may not work against Indian AD, but basically, it will embolden Pak to use some of its Vipers for the N role as well.

Last but not least, the $10B they got as CSF, is what allowed Pak to purchase 3 Erieyes (2 reportedly banged up by bad Taliban, oops), 3 PRC AEW&C, some 500 Al Khalids, 3 Agostas, and umpteen NVG/Arty/comms upgrades plus fund the initial odd 3 squadrons of JF-17.

Basically, the US funded the rearmament of the Pak Mil.
Plus, there is now news that Pak ramped up its n-program as well.
.


Karan,

You have provided an important insight regarding the fine calibration of tech level of the items delivered by the US to Pakistan... it is interesting that they are good enough to hurt India significantly, but not quite good enough to threaten US interests if they should fall into PRC's hands.

That said, the broader point here: i.e., that the US is supplying Pakistan with military equipment in a manner that completely disregards Indian interests, is something that we've all known on BRF for a long time. And of course, this is perfectly well understood by the likes of Uneven, Unfair, and all the SD/DOD types who talk about "helping Pakistan face India with dignity" as well.

Also, I don't think your observations invalidate my contention that the primary motivation for the US to supply this equipment to Pakistan (besides not giving a rat's arse for Indian interests) is still economical. How much profit could the US arms industry make by selling NVGs, body armour, small arms and other legitimately anti-terrorist type stuff to the Pakis? No, the profit resides in shipping huge numbers of AMRAAMs, Harpoons et al.

Anyway. Far be it from me to disparage any efforts my friend CRamS is making; however, I remain skeptical of the results, if only because I myself have been part of such group efforts to engage various "thought leaders" in the US since my pre-9/11 grad school days. In fact, one such group went back and forth with Uneven quite a bit.

The group soon came to believe that Uneven (a) doesn't have an intellectually honest bone in his body, and is therefore completely immune to being "shamed" by the kind of thing CRamS is calling him out on; (b) was engaging with us because he thought we were rich desis who would give him money to advocate Indian interests in Washington circles. Seriously. This was during the NDA regime when it looked like the sky was the limit for the Indian economy, and loads of Indian IT-vity types were really making a killing in the US... so all of a sudden, we had become lucrative potential clients. The obvious inference was that all the way up to then, Uneven had been advocating the Pakistani interest (disguised beneath a garb of equal-equal) because he had been getting money from THEM. Maybe he still is.

Fortunately no Indian PAC decided to invest in Uneven as an advocate/covert-lobbyist/whatever; and it turns out we were right, because in fact Uneven doesn't have any influence in DC policymaking circles at all. He has a good PR sensibility and media presence that makes him appear to be a "well-regarded expert on South Asia"... but this appearance is, in fact, only bought into by Indians and Pakistanis. I have it from the horse's mouth about how much influence he really has in the SD... see this post I made a couple of years ago.

viewtopic.php?p=1097324#p1097324

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby member_23252 » 20 Aug 2013 21:23

Revising textbooks in Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa

The Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa (K-P) government is set to ‘rectify’ mistakes in the school curriculum and restore to it material regarding ‘jihad’, which was removed under a reform process initiated in 2006, and carried through with at the provincial level under the previous Awami National Party government. A committee of educationists and scholars had, at the time, worked to remove content from textbooks that would in any way promote violence and replace it with themes intended to encourage peace and tolerance. Logic would suggest these are essential to the province. As part of the same exercise, Arab heroes had been replaced by stories of persons closer to home, including poets, Sufi thinkers and others with roots in K-P.
However, the provincial minister for elementary and secondary education at a meeting at the offices of the Peshawar Textbook Board has said this process may soon be reversed. The minister, affiliated with the Pakistan Tehreek-i-Insaf (PTI), has said the ‘religious’ content of curriculums would never be sacrificed.
The PTI has faced strong pressure on this count from its ally in the provincial government, the Jamaat-e-Islami (JI), whose ministers attended the meeting. The JI had made fervent efforts to be allotted the education ministry in K-P, with strong protests heard from civil society groups following early indications that the PTI was preparing to do just this.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - May 13, 2013

Postby vishvak » 20 Aug 2013 21:29

The Kashmir itch of pukis is actually totally illegitimate. Even when Nehru went to UN complaining Indian Parliament had not given any views even on the misstep. After decades the issue is still complex and Indian Parliament has clearly passed resolutions in favour of integration of the state completely.

If there is any such misstep again then the Indian army should show the middle finger and that is the logical conclusion of the complete and whole nonsense.


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