2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi ousted

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2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi ousted

Postby AbhiJ » 04 Jul 2013 14:17

Starts with the Islamic Orgy.

Egypt Sex Attacks Reach 'Horrific' Levels


Almost 100 women have been sexually assaulted in Cairo's Tahrir Square in just four days, according to Human Rights Watch.
The charity described the attacks as "rampant" and said they highlight the "failure of the government and all political parties to face up to the violence that women in Egypt experience on a daily basis".

Some of the 91 women assaulted were reportedly beaten with metal chains, chairs and sticks, while others were attacked with knives.

The assaults came as protests escalated in the square, culminating with the ousting of President Mohamed Morsi in a military coup.

Joe Stork, deputy Middle East director at Human Rights Watch, said: "These are serious crimes that are holding women back from participating fully in the public life of Egypt at a critical point in the country's development."

Some say the attacks are staged by thugs who are abusing a lack of security and are confident of escaping prosecution.

Others claim they are organised to scare women into not joining anti-government protests.

Human Rights Watch cited figures from a hotline for victims of sexual assault and Nazra for Feminist Studies, a women's rights group.

The watchdog called on Egyptian officials and political leaders to "condemn and take immediate steps to address the horrific levels of sexual violence" in the square.

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Mosri outsed

Postby RSoami » 04 Jul 2013 14:27

Please correct the spelling of the title of thread. Thanks

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Mosri outsed

Postby Singha » 04 Jul 2013 14:30

the familiar islamic cycle of oscillating between jihadists vs military backed "strongmen" with periodic orgies of violence to mark the flip-flop gate transitions.

no sustainable democracy in any islamic nation on this planet.

my prediction is same thing is going to happen in algeria and libya the poster children of the maghreb 'spring'

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Mosri outsed

Postby Yogi_G » 04 Jul 2013 16:05

Not really sure if this is one of those "coloured" revolutions engineered by unkil, maybe the Muslim brothergood rubbed them the wrong way. The "Muslim world" is too chaotic and weird to be able to understand. I only fear to think what would have been this place we call the middle east if they dint have the oil riches. The money in the pockets is atleast keeping some of these fanatics at home and less time to jihadify.

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Mosri outsed

Postby Singha » 04 Jul 2013 16:20

somalia/sudan/mali == middle east minus the oil.

you get the picture.

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Mosri outsed

Postby SSridhar » 04 Jul 2013 16:29

Yogi_G wrote:Not really sure if this is one of those "coloured" revolutions engineered by unkil. . .

Unkil is quite capable of all these things, but, as Singha says, the Islamists have proved once again that they are incapable of ruling themselves unless there is a King or a Caliphate. There was no real alternative to Army rule in Egypt once King Faroukh was deposed. The Free Officers led by Col. Nasser took the help of the Brotherhood but shortly threw them into jail and executed their leaders after deposing the King.

Just the day before, Obama called Morsi and assured him the US support !

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Mosri outsed

Postby Baikul » 04 Jul 2013 17:09

AbhiJ wrote:Starts with the Islamic Orgy.

Egypt Sex Attacks Reach 'Horrific' Levels

......


As they say, well begun is half done. :roll:

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Mosri outsed

Postby Yogi_G » 04 Jul 2013 17:10

Singha wrote:somalia/sudan/mali == middle east minus the oil.

you get the picture.


good point Singha ji, which makes me wonder with a poor middle east and no caliphate would TSP still have wagged its tail as much as it did during the last 60 + years. or worse all of middle east would have been one big Pakistan harrassing and terrorising the civilized nations. It's a good "what if" scenario. Sorry if OT.

Sridhar ji, is even a caliphate possible given all the infighting these people do? Reminds me of the sultanates which fought against the Vijayanagara kingdom, they sacked Vijayanagara after the battle of Talikota and were back to infighting within no time.

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Mosri outsed

Postby Samudragupta » 04 Jul 2013 19:43

Turkish Generals must be watching this with amusement.....

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Mosri outsed

Postby devesh » 04 Jul 2013 20:12

it's not the lack of a "dictator" that is failing them. it is the lack of "external" expansion. they are restless to get to the next phase of what they perceive as their "genuine right". they've protected and sheltered the Islamic institutional architecture to grow and entrench itself. now that complex wants to move to the next step. I would watch for that. the current mess is heading in that direction. painting an external enemy to loot/rape/convert/destroy is the best glue for the Islamics. always and everywhere. the longer this mess continues, the greater the chance that the seeds of "expansion outside" will be planted in the Jihadi minds.

we should not delude ourselves that this mess will remain in their homelands. the easiest way for the Mullahs and Islamists to consolidate their power now is to turn their respective populations outward on dar-ul-harb.

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Mosri outsed

Postby CRamS » 04 Jul 2013 20:50

Unkil and of course Israel for sure are laughing their arses off to the bank. Only Iran stands in the way of complete, unequivocal, unstoppable dominance of US/Israel over the entire region. Pretty soon Iran will fall too and with that any semblance of resistance to US/Israel.

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby Klaus » 05 Jul 2013 06:14

^^^ Iran will then make sure that Kurdistan is well propped up before it goes down.

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby Singha » 05 Jul 2013 07:29

the more populous countries like egypt have a large young population but lack economic growth to provide them opportunities. hence the anger and restlessness. TSP is in same boat and India under INC is strongly surging into that situation.

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby partha » 05 Jul 2013 07:40

Long and bloody struggle ahead for Egypt. Another Syria type situation?


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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby Pratyush » 05 Jul 2013 07:45

Interesting that the beardo thinks that shias are not Muslims.

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby Philip » 05 Jul 2013 07:54

It was on the cards.He was so heavy-handed and inflexible.The problem is how is Egypt going to bring in a new constitution,which will preserve the liberal attitude of the younger generation in the face of the large support of the MB even though it has been ousted from power.


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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby member_23692 » 06 Jul 2013 02:54

Interesting chronology of events in the last days of Dr. Muhommad Morsi, Phd, Physics, University of Southern California, Los Angeles. Very enjoyable read !

http://news.yahoo.com/final-days-morsi-isolated-defiant-234801629.html

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby Gagan » 06 Jul 2013 05:28

Yo! The Egyptians are going to go on a rampage and kill christians!
That lady in the video is shouting against christians.
That Idea didn't pop up in that woman's head all by itself, this has got to be the undercurrent in that mob there.

Already they are looking for scapegoats.
Will have to sit down with one of the egyptian guys at the workplace - even though this guy isn't particularly bright.

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby IndraD » 06 Jul 2013 18:51

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Coptic ... ack-318929

christian priest shot dead in Egypt

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23209183

there are reports that army is divided and there is some pressure on top commander to reinstate Morsi

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby IndraD » 06 Jul 2013 22:35

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 948046.cms

former UN nuclear watchdog appointed new PM.
More evidence emerging that movement has blessings of US/Israel

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby sampat » 06 Jul 2013 23:47

In Kerala

Image

Image

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby SSridhar » 08 Jul 2013 08:27

Efforts on at Tahrir to Paint Gen El-Sisi as Face of Second Revolution - Atul Aneja, The Hindu
Massive crowds opposed to deposed President Mohamed Morsy are pouring into Tahrir Square, which has over the last couple of years transformed itself from an arena of spontaneous rebellion to a staging post for managed change.

Hawkers at the venue are doing brisk business, selling pictures of all sizes of a youngish looking General Abdel Fattah El-Sisi, the Defence Minister who has become the face of what his supporters say is the beginning of Egypt’s second revolution. A symbol of Egypt’s societal split between a secularist and an Islamist core, General El-Sisi’s critics hold him responsible for mounting a bloodless coup — terminology that is deeply resented at the Square — that toppled an elected President on Wednesday.

There is a conscious attempt at Tahrir to elevate the Egyptian military to iconic status, as an unimpeachable guardian of political stability, social justice and patriotism.

Posters are being distributed at the venue with Gen. El-Sisi’s pictures in full uniformed regalia, juxtaposed with images of former President Anwar Sadat; and Gamal Abdel Nasser, who had emerged as a celebrated symbol of Arab nationalism half a century ago.

It is apparent that Egypt’s new rulers are mounting a herculean effort to have Gen. El-Sisi in the popular imagination as the legitimate successor of the finest and the most idealistic that the Egyptian military has so far produced.

Gen. El- Sisi is also being projected as a social unifier — with pictures being parcelled around at the Square that show him flanked on either side with Coptic Orthodox Pope Tawadros II, and the Grand Mufti of the Al Azhar mosque.

A raised platform with black speaker towers has become the focal point of activity at the Square, where mike in hand, young men wearing black T-shirts and cotton trousers are holding forth. They are part of the Tamrod [Rebel] campaign, which has transformed Egypt’s political landscape.

Inspired by the message of Mahmoud Badr (27) and four others, its supporters had fanned out in the country to accumulate 22 million signatures, calling for Mr. Morsy’s exit.

Tamrod supporters say that their signature campaign provides legitimacy for the deposition of Mr. Morsy.


The Tamrod campaign has backed its claims with a show of strength by mustering millions in anti-Morsy rallies that finally culminated with the President’s exit.

Unlike the previous youth movements that had brought down former President Hosni Mubarak, the Tamrod has firmly allied itself with the military — a move that could backfire in case the army settles itself in its pre-Mubarak plutocratic cocoon.

In sharp contrast to the early phase of the anti-Mubarak uprising when “democratic West” was the flavour of the season, Tahrir Square after Mr. Morsy’s exit is awash with posters and banners that are dismissive of the West, especially the United States, for its alleged support for Mr. Morsy and his parent organisation, the Muslim Brotherhood.


Isn't this the fate of Islamic nations that are unable to decide what kind of rulership do they want ? Do they want a King or a Westphalian type of governance ? When the situation becomes unbearable, the military steps in and it is welcomed as a saviour for a brief period.

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby SSridhar » 08 Jul 2013 16:33

At least 42 killed in Egypt, Islamists call for uprising - ToI
At least 42 people were killed in Cairo on Monday, medical sources said, when Islamist protesters angered by the military overthrow of President Mohamed Morsi said they were fired on at the Cairo military barracks where he is being held.

More than 200 were wounded in a sharp escalation of Egypt's political crisis, and Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood urged Egyptians to rise up against the army, which they accuse of a military coup to remove the elected leader.

The military said "a terrorist group" tried to storm the Republican Guard compound and one army officer had been killed and 40 wounded.

So, the Egyptian Army is back to calling the Muslim Brotherhood [and rightly so] a terrorist organization ? I am sure Al Nour, the salafist party, though it appears to be on the side of the Army at present does not have noble intentions. It is there to sabotage from within. It has already ensured that ElBaradei was not nominated. The Army is also probably aware of that but may not want to exacerbate matters much now by expelling Al Nour from its side. Rather, it would take the salafist's support up to a point of time to control the Islamist uprising of the Brotherhood. Determining the right time to get rid of the salafists would be the tricky part unless of course they force the issue somehow.

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby Philip » 10 Jul 2013 03:02

The Army is throwing its weight behind its coup ignoring the MB.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/ju ... -president

Egypt's interim presidency appoints PM and vice-president
Army says it is determined to tackle challenges facing country, while warning against political 'manoeuvring'

Egypt's interim presidency appoints PM and vice-president

Army says it is determined to tackle challenges facing country, while warning against political 'manoeuvring'
Ian Black and Patrick Kingsley in Cairo
The Guardian, Tuesday 9 July 2013

Adly Mansour and Hazem el-Beblawi
Egypt's interim president Adly Mansour, right, meets Hazem el-Beblawi, who has been appointed PM, at the El-Thadiya presidential palace in Cairo. Photograph: Reuters

Egypt's military-backed interim presidency moved to implement a speedy transition to civilian rule on Tuesday, appointing economist Hazem el-Beblawi as prime minister and the internationally-known opposition leader Mohamed ElBaradei as vice-president.

In a tense atmosphere following the killing of 55 supporters of the deposed president Mohamed Morsi and threats of new mass protests by his supporters, the army also warned against political "manoeuvring" at a time of instability and anxiety – apparently to forestall more squabbling about other cabinet posts.

General Abdel-Fatah al-Sisi, the defence minister and armed forces commander who ousted Morsi last week, said in a statement broadcast on state TV that the military was determined to tackle the challenges facing Egypt in "these difficult circumstances". Sisi's message was also a greeting to Egyptians on the occasion of the Muslim Ramadan holiday, which begins on Wednesday in an unusually joyless national mood.

Beblawi, a respected former finance minister, will lead a technocratic government whose other members have yet to be announced. Crucially, however, it looks unlikely to include any Islamists. The Muslim Brotherhood is holding out for Morsi's restoration, which does not now seem likely.

ElBaradei, a Nobel Prize laureate, was on the verge of being named prime minister last week but at the last minute that was blocked by the Salafi Nour party. His role is a fillip for liberals.

Egypt's interim government also announced plans for new elections and drew up an interim constitution that gave full executive and legislative plans to the interim president, Adly Mansour. The charter was criticised by the Tamarod campaign, the grassroots movement that brought millions to the streets against Morsi in recent weeks. But it was welcomed by the US, which has previously expressed concerns about Morsi's removal, but which – according to one US official – welcomed the way that Egyptian officials had now "laid out a plan for the path forward".

Morsi supporters were still gathering near the scene of Monday's killings, described as a massacre by the Brotherhood but defended by the army and a uniformly uncritical state media as a response to a "terrorist" attack.

At the Rabaa Adawiya sit-in, the ground-zero of the Islamist presence in east Cairo, the crowds were more sombre than agitated. Mourners left rings of stones where their friends had died, and only a few chanted insults at the soldiers guarding the barbed wire fence that blocked one entrance to the site.

"It was criminal, it was treason," said Mahmoud Mohamed, a Salafi from Minya, of Monday's massacre. "But protesters are righteous people. We don't know violence. We will only resist with peaceful chanting."

Sherif Mohamed, a teacher from Cairo, said: "The army is trying to falsify the news, cover up their actions. But we are fearless, we are determined. We will continue to stand here in support of legitimacy."

At Cairo's Zeinhom morgue, where many of those killed were taken, mourners of those killed were still waiting for their friends' bodies to be released – many still coming to terms with the horror of what happened. "It was barbaric," said Mohamed Abu Sayed, a lecturer at al-Azhar university, who was waiting for the body of his friend Mohamed Abdel Rahman. "It was a black day in the history of Egypt's army." Abu Sayed called for Islamists to continue their peaceful resistance in response.

The Brotherhood and other Islamist groups rejected a declaration by Mansour, calling for new parliamentary elections by next February after a referendum on an amended draft constitution, and then another presidential race.

Morsi, who is now under house arrest, won last year's election by a narrow majority against an old-regime candidate. The president's supporters say he was deposed by a military coup. Opponents call his removal by the military a continuation of the 2011 revolution.

Issam al-Erian, deputy chairman of the Brotherhood's political wing, the Freedom and Justice party, called the declaration "a constitutional decree by a man appointed by putschists" which "brings the country back to square one".

Beblawi's appointment looks likely to improve confidence, vital for a country with dwindling foreign currency reserves and desperate for new investment. "My impression of him is one of a tiger who knows what Egypt needs," said Angus Blair, a Cairo-based economist with the Signet Institute, responding to suggestions that Beblawi, at 77, is too old for the post.

"He is someone who will put people of competence around him. He is very refreshing in terms of his approach. He has a very blunt tone. He knows what the problems are, and how urgent it is to deal with them."

Underlining improving financial prospects, Saudi Arabia said it had approved a $5bn aid package to Egypt, comprising a $2bn central bank deposit, $2bn in energy products, and $1bn in cash. The UAE agreed to grant Egypt $1bn and lend it another $2bn. Both the conservative Gulf monarchies were hostile to Morsi and the Brotherhood.

The donations capped a topsy-turvy day in Egyptian politics, after development economist Samir Radwan told the Guardian he had been promised the premiership, only to be usurped at the eleventh hour by Beblawi. When the Guardian contacted Radwan following the announcement of Beblawi's appointment, Radwan said that the last time he spoke to the presidency, he had been assured he was "top of the list".


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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby SSridhar » 10 Jul 2013 16:25

Nightwatch Report & Comment

Egypt: Security. No reports of clashes resulting in casualties were published in main stream media on 9 July. Egypt did not descend into chaos, as the Wall Street Journal proclaimed yesterday.

Political. The Tamarrud (Rebel) movement's spokesman said that the movement was not consulted by interim President Mansour about the 33 articles in his decree.

Comment: Feedback from one Brilliant and insightful Reader observed that Tamarrud should be careful about what it wishes for. There are no neutral politicians in Egypt and none who can resist authoritarian practices. They simply and obviously do not know how to practice the politics of inclusion. Issuing decrees written in secret with contributions from appointed advisors is Mursi's way. There seems to be little learning going on in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood also rejected Mansour's presidential decree on the transition. This means there will be more clashes. Mansour blundered again today by announcing a "One Nation' national reconciliation initiative, again crafted in secret and sprung on the public at night.

Comment: In this second phase of the shrinking Egyptian revolution, such a plan should have emerged from consultations with the key parties, not the key advisors. Mansour's skill in governing is no better than Mursi's. He uses identical tactics. Egyptian politicians need to learn that they need to consult with the factions before they start issuing decrees, assuming they are serious about national reconciliation. Interim president Mansour appointed liberal economist Hazem El-Beblawi Egypt's new prime minister. According to al Ahram, El-Beblawi is a former finance minister and member of the Egyptian Social Democratic Party. Al-Beblawi's first action was to announce that he would offer cabinet posts to members of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Comment: Mansour consulted the factions in selecting a prime minister, apparently reluctantly because his first choices were rejected. El Beblawi offered the Brotherhood cabinet positions before he offered them to those factions who supported the military coup.

Special comment: Egypt is adrift. The transitional plan cannot work because Mansour appears no more capable of governing as a coalition leader and no more innovative than Mursi. This interim government will only last if it can make rapid, even limited, progress in fixing the economy. The amount and duration of shortages might now measure the lifespan of the Mansour administration. Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates pledged $8 billion to assist Egypt. They made pledges during the Mursi interregnum but did not honor them. This time they are more likely to do so because they prefer authoritarian military rule in Egypt over the Brotherhood. The amounts are large, but not enough to make Egypt whole. Egypt will need that amount of aid every month for at least a complete growing and a robust tourist season in order to stop the economic collapse. Then it will need the debts forgiven. :)

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby habal » 10 Jul 2013 16:32

One thing about Morsi that came to light recently, is that he was an austere, frugal individual. He did not own a car and lived in a rented house. Far removed from the lavish Mubarak Saville Row bespoke lifestyle. Seems like an ideologue, obedient party worker types. Such types are loose canons and would frighten or annoy those who always like to be in control with a short leash.

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby SSridhar » 10 Jul 2013 17:22

MB encourages only such type of living. Very salafi indeed.

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby Lalmohan » 10 Jul 2013 17:55

always wondered why morsi appeared in public in western suit and tie - wasn't necessary, and he didn't look totally at ease

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby Singha » 10 Jul 2013 18:29

the stage appear set for egypt to join the "horn of africa" to the south starting with sudan as a troubled zone.
and to the west libya, mali, mauritania, algeria, chad, niger are either boiling or tractless sands with govt control being fitful at best.

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby ramana » 11 Jul 2013 03:54

X-Post....
Anindya wrote:As Cairo residents, get attacked by their own kind - their primary concerns are worthy of note:

Cairo residents: ‘Heavily armed Islamists attacked us’

Residents say the attack began just minutes after the Brotherhood’s supreme guide, Mohammed Badie, gave a fiery speech to Mursi supporters camped out in Cairo’s Nasr City, which was broadcast live on television.

“The attack came minutes after Badie’s speech. They treated us like infidels. They were chanting ‘Allahu akbar’ (God is greatest) as they were shooting us,” said Ahmed Fattouh.


As Robert Spencer puts it...
"They treated us like infidels." In other words, Ahmed Fattouh, who is not otherwise identified in the story, believes that it is perfectly acceptable to chant "Allah akbar" and shoot at Infidels, but to do such things to fellow Muslims, that's going too far!


This kind of attitude is of course commonplace in other Muslim countries such as we see here Kasabs home village slams Mumbai conviction
“Look, dont blame him. There is nothing wrong if he did it with good intentions against an infidel country like India,” said Amjad Ali, a 60-year-old farmer with white hair.

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby ramana » 11 Jul 2013 03:58

Also Nightwatch 8 July 2013

Egypt: At least 51 pro-Mursi demonstrators were killed and 435 injured in clashes at Rabiah Square, near the Cairo headquarters of the Republican Guard. The army said "armed terrorists" tried to storm the base, killing one security officer and critically wounding six others. The Muslim Brotherhood said the demonstrators were massacred during dawn prayers.


The Brotherhood has called for a national uprising against the armed forces. The ultra-conservative Nour Party which supported Mursi's ouster has pulled out of talks about forming a new government.


Late on 8 July its leaders announced an alternative road map that more restores Mursi's policies, rump parliament and the political dominance of conservative Islamic scholars on constitutional matters. Nour leaders accused the new regime and the military of violating the military's road map to which Nour had agreed "only to prevent violence," they claimed.


Interim president, Adly Mansour, set up a judicial commission of inquiry into the killings.


Comment: A careful review of the reporting, including videos, indicates that both versions of what happened are partly accurate. Separate video clips show demonstrators attempting to use force to break into the Republican Guard building. The security force casualties appear to have come from shotguns fired by the and fire bombs thrown by Brothers. The action did coincide with morning prayers. The security forces reacted with overwhelming force.


This appears to have been the main scene of violent clashes reported on 8 July.


This was at least the second/third time since Friday that pro-Mursi supporters tried to break into that building because that is one of the two places where Mursi has been reportedly held in custody. A Brother said the other was the Ministry of Defense itself. The Republican Guard building is near the Rabia al Adawiyah Mosque where the Brothers have been assembling since Friday for daily protests.


The Brothers are trying to rescue Mursi. More attempts are likely, which means more deadly clashes.

Official reports and photos indicate they stockpiled a variety of weapons and ammunition in the Brotherhood headquarters, which lends credibility to their leaders' calls to engage in violent protests. Eyewitnesses reported that armed Brothers threatened to shoot them and any pro-Mursi demonstrators who attempted to depart the Rabia Square protest site to return home.

Nour's alternative road map is a bargaining position, which means it is still negotiating.


Politics. Interim President Mansour issued a decree containing 33 articles which establish the procedure and a timetable for a return to elected civilian government. In the next five months, Egyptians are invited to submit amendments to the constitution. Three months later elections will be held.

Mansour has moved to try to start restoring the economy. He met the president of the central bank who just returned from a visit to Abu Dhabi looking for financial help. Concerning the prime minister, the one man whom most factions trust to run the new government as prime minister is former finance minister Samir Radwan.

Comment: Mansour appears to have picked up the pace of establishing a government.

Special comment: A very wise and brilliant senior analyst was fond of pointing out to less experienced analysts that capitals often are big cities with large populations and many neighborhoods. Most of the city goes about normal business while one or more neighborhood experiences trouble for a time.

The media headlines are about the area of trouble at the time of the trouble, and rightly so. However, repetition creates a visual impression that the rest of the city is in turmoil all day. That was the case in Istanbul last month at Taksim Square and in Cairo today at Rabia Square.


Today's violence began around 02:00 in the area of Rabia Square. It lasted until dawn and was essentially ended before most people went to work. No other violence was reported in open sources during the work day, though more demonstrations are being called for after work period.

This comment is not meant to minimize the importance of the clashes, but rather to put them in perspective. Security conditions can get much worse.

Tension is high and most factions are showing little inclination to compromise or even tolerate opposing viewpoints. Ultra conservative imams have called for the death of secularists. Brotherhood leaders not in custody have called for violence. All of that makes more clashes and killings inevitable, but all of Egypt is not rioting… at least not on 8 July.

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby devesh » 11 Jul 2013 04:28

habal wrote:One thing about Morsi that came to light recently, is that he was an austere, frugal individual. He did not own a car and lived in a rented house. Far removed from the lavish Mubarak Saville Row bespoke lifestyle. Seems like an ideologue, obedient party worker types. Such types are loose canons and would frighten or annoy those who always like to be in control with a short leash.


ya of course. such an egalitarian individual.
until of course the question of power and centralization of imperial control comes up.
then, not much difference.

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby ramana » 11 Jul 2013 23:37

S Nihal Singh whose views I value writes

Achilles heel of Arab Spring


Achilles Heel of Arab Spring

S. Nihal Singh

Islam was on test in the heart of the Arab world. This has wide ramifications for Egypt and the future of Islam as a ruling creed.

The continuing tragedy and turmoil in Egypt have a larger portent: the direction Islam is taking in the wake of the Arab Spring that began in Tunisia more than two years ago. The thrust of the uprisings as they hopped from one Arab country to another was democratisation.

Equally, this democratic underpinning used the vehicle of Islam to achieve its objective.
And there lies the strength and Achilles’ heel of the movements.

In a sense, Islamist protests were the inevitable bearers of the revolutions as they dethroned largely secular dictators because they were the only well-organised opposition. At the same time, they left out of their ken large sections of people who espoused a more modern and secular outlook on life and governance.

Only Turkey, where the Justice and Development Party (AKP) of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has repeatedly triumphed after taming the Army, finds itself in hot water over increasing opposition from secular middle classes to the increasing Islamisation of the country. Modern Turkey, of course, has the legacy of Ataturk in giving a new meaning to his shrunk country on the ruins of the Ottoman Empire.

Turkey is not an Arab country. Nor is Iran. In Iran, the end of the Shah era was brought on by a revolution riding on the crest of the cleric Ayatollah Khomeini and the structure of power has been constructed on the supremacy of a spiritual leader vetted by a National Assembly and supported by the Revolutionary Guards who built their own power structure after the futile and damaging Iran-Iraq war.

Of all the countries of the Arab Spring, Tunisia, though relatively small, has been the most successful. And its modest success is the result of the main Islamist Ennahda party seeking to form as inclusive a government as it could. But all eyes were on Egypt, the most populous and pivotal Arab state which saw the fall of the all-powerful Hosni Mubarak. The Army which had initially supported Mubarak abandoned him to finally side with the protesters.

In Yemen, it was a temporary solution, with the long-time ruler sidestepped even as his kin and power structure remain largely undisturbed. In Bahrain, with a minority Sunni monarch ruling over majority Shias, realpolitik took precedence. Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates sent troops to suppress the popular movement and Washington winked its approval because Bahrain is host to the US Fifth Fleet.

Libya is a somewhat unique case because Muammar Gaddafi had destroyed the normal institutions of governance and there was deep and traditional division between the east and the west of the country. There is still no unified Army and militias of different degrees of legitimacy run the country after a fashion.

In the earthquakes that have shaken the Arab world, Egypt occupies a central place as a barometer of future trends and the salience of the Muslim Brotherhood. Founded in 1928, this organisation has a long history of deprivation and persecution, but it has persevered by strengthening its grassroots organisation through charity work among the poor. After Mubarak’s dramatic fall, the Brotherhood oscillated in vowing not to contest the presidency before changing its mind. By virtue of its organisational strength built over the decades, it came out the narrow winner over a disparate Opposition of liberals, secularists and persons of various other persuasions.

Suddenly, Islam in its new garb of power was on test in the heart of the Arab world. Its failure, in the overthrow of the Mohamed Morsi presidency on the back of a massive public uprising of the rest of Egyptian society that felt marginalised and excluded, has wide ramifications for Egypt and for the future of Islam as a ruling creed. Morsi failed because he was impatient in buttressing the Brotherhood’s hold on power through a flawed Constitution, forming an Upper House dominated by his party and allied Salafists, giving himself arbitrary powers and packing key posts with sympathisers.

Opposition to the Brotherhood’s moves was growing among the more secular-minded and liberal constituencies and others left out of the power structure. But no one expected the numbers that turned up at the iconic Tahrir Square on the first anniversary of Morsi’s rule. Estimates varied, but the crowds were larger than those that toppled Mubarak even as the pro-Morsi supporters demonstrated elsewhere in Cairo. The protesters had earlier gathered some 21 million signatures from around the country, asking Morsi to go. The Army, upset by many of Morsi’s moves although he had left its economic and other privileges intact, then acted to depose him.

But this coup is not a solution to Egypt’s problems. Violent fights broke out around the country between pro- and anti-Morsi factions culminating in the Army’s use of force against pro-Morsi supporters on July 8 as they said their prayers outside the Republican Guards barracks in Cairo — allegedly on provocation. This show of force killed at least 51 protesters with several hundred injured. The Army has subsequently tried to soften the blow, the interim President announcing a schedule of elections, with the Brotherhood remaining adamant on Morsi’s reinstatement. Now the Brotherhood has been offered Cabinet seats in the government.



After the Arabs conquered Persia they waited about a hundred years to institute Islamist rule. They first put their own people in the ruling echelons and created madrassas which turned out more and more Islamised talibs or students whose only knowledge was Islam.
The modern world does not give the luxury of time to new or regenerated political movements. in that manner the Islamization by Zia ullo Haq of TSP in ~ ten years was a modern phenomenon and shows the population were willing goats.

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby ramana » 14 Jul 2013 19:43

The Economic Blunders Behind the Arab Revolutions

by David P. Goldman
The Wall Street Journal
July 12, 2013

http://www.meforum.org/3554/arab-revolutions-economics
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Sometimes economies can't be fixed after decades of statist misdirection, and the people simply get up and go. Since the debt crisis of the 1980s, 10 million poor Mexicans—victims of a post-revolutionary policy that kept rural Mexicans trapped on government-owned collective farms—have migrated to the United States. Today, Egyptians and Syrians face economic problems much worse than Mexico's, but there is nowhere for them to go. Half a century of socialist mismanagement has left the two Arab states unable to meet the basic needs of their people, with economies so damaged that they may be past the point of recovery in our lifetimes.

This is the crucial background to understanding the state failure in Egypt and civil war in Syria. It may not be within America's power to reverse their free falls; the best scenario for the U.S. is to manage the chaos as best it can.

Of Egypt's 90 million people, 70% live on the land. Yet the country produces barely half of Egyptians' total caloric consumption. The poorer half of the population survives on subsidized food imports that stretch a budget deficit close to a sixth of the country's GDP, about double the ratio in Greece. With the global rise in food prices, Egypt's trade deficit careened out of control to $25 billion in 2010, up from $10 billion in 2006, well before the overthrow of President Hosni Mubarak.

In Syria, the government's incompetent water management—exacerbated by drought beginning in 2006—ruined millions of farmers before the May 2011 rebellion. The collapse of Syrian agriculture didn't create the country's ethnic and religious fault lines, but it did leave millions landless, many of them available and ready to fight.

Egyptians are ill-prepared for the modern world economy. Forty-five percent are illiterate. Nearly all married Egyptian women suffer genital mutilation. One-third of marriages are between cousins, a hallmark of tribal society. Only half of the 51 million Egyptians between the ages of 15 and 64 are counted in the government's measure of the labor force. If Egypt counted its people the way the U.S. does, its unemployment rate would be well over 40% instead of the official 13% rate. Nearly one-third of college-age Egyptians register for university but only half graduate, and few who do are qualified for employment in the 21st century.

That is the tragic outcome of 60 years of economic policies designed for political control rather than productivity. We have seen similar breakdowns, for example in Latin America during the 1980s, but with a critical difference. The Latin debtor countries all exported food. Egypt is a banana republic without the bananas.

The world market pulled the rug out from under Egypt's mismanaged economy when world food prices soared beginning in 2007 in response to Asian demand for feed grain. Meantime, the price of cotton—on which Mr. Mubarak had bet the store—declined. Now Egypt's food situation is critical: The country reportedly has two months' supply of imported wheat on hand when it should have more than six months' worth. For months, Egypt's poor have had little to eat except bread, in a country where 40% of adults already are physically stunted by poor diet, according to the World Food Organization. When the military forced President Mohammed Morsi out of office last week, bread was starting to get scarce.

Since 1988, Bashar Assad's regime misdirected Syria's scarce water resources toward wheat and cotton irrigation in pursuit of socialist self-sufficiency. It didn't pan out—and when drought hit seven years ago, the country began to run out of water. Illegal wells have depleted the underground water table. Three million Syrian farmers (out of a total 20 million population) were pauperized, and hundreds of thousands left their farms for tent camps on the outskirts of Syrian cities.

Assad's belated attempt to reverse course triggered the current political crisis, the economist Paul Rivlin wrote in a March 2011 report for Tel Aviv University's Moshe Dayan Center: "By 2007, 12.3 percent of the population lived in extreme poverty and the poverty rate had reached 33 percent. Since then, poverty rates have risen still further. In early 2008, fuel subsidies were abolished and, as a result, the price of diesel fuel tripled overnight. Consequently, during the year the price of basic foodstuffs rose sharply and was further exacerbated by the drought. In 2009, the global financial crisis reduced the volume of remittances coming into Syria."

The regime cut tariffs on food imports in February 2011 in a last-minute bid to mitigate the crisis, but the move misfired as the local market hoarded food in response to the government's perceived desperation, sending prices soaring just before Syria's Sunnis rebelled.

Economic crisis set the stage for political collapse in Egypt and Syria, even if it wasn't the actual spur. The two Arab states are, of course, not the only nations ruined by socialist mismanagement. But unlike Russia and Eastern Europe, they have no pool of skilled labor or natural resources to fall back on. In this context, Western concerns about the niceties of democratic procedure seem misguided.

The best outcome for Egypt in the short run is subsidies from Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states to tide it over. Egypt's annual financing gap is almost $20 billion, and it is flat broke. The price of such aid is continuing to sideline the Muslim Brotherhood, which the Gulf monarchies consider a threat to their legitimacy. The Gulf states have pledged $12 billion in response to Morsi's overthrow, averting a near-term economic disaster. That's probably the best among a set of bad alternatives.

Syria may not be salvageable as a political entity, and the West should consider a Yugoslavia-style partition plan to stop ethnic and religious slaughter. Even the best remedies, though, may come too late to keep the region from deteriorating into a prolonged period of chaos.

Mr. Goldman, president of Macrostrategy LLC, is a fellow at the Middle East Forum and the London Center for Policy Research.



All this applies to Pakistan also

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby Samudragupta » 15 Jul 2013 01:13

ramana wrote:
All this applies to Pakistan also


The only difference is it is more or less food sufficient as of now....

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby ramana » 15 Jul 2013 02:18

Complete the Islamists' Defeat

by Raymond Stock
Foreign Policy Research Institute
July 2013

http://www.meforum.org/3553/egypt-islamists-defeat


On July 8, the Obama administration finally did the right thing in Egypt—by not calling what Mohamed Mursi's historically huge opposition rightly hails as its "corrective revolution" a coup. Thus it prevented the automatic cutoff of America's $1.6 billion of mostly military aid, without which our connection to the largest Arab state (and perhaps the Suez Canal) would be lost. But it would be a grave mistake if the U.S. should insist that the aid would continue only if everyone –the deposed Muslim Brotherhood (and other Islamists) among them—is included in the now-rebooted "transition to democracy." Nor should the Egyptians want to go to this route. Such would be an historic error that will sabotage whatever good might come from the already diminished influence which that aid buys – as well as from the heroic actions of the Egyptians themselves.

In addition to Egypt's probable lack of enough secular and civil society to create a genuine democracy, the seemingly imminent civil war would not permit that transition to happen, at least not now—and perhaps not ever. With Monday's opening clash in front of the Ministry of Defense that left roughly fifty Islamists dead and one soldier slain, after numerous other killings over the year of MB rule, and culminating in scenes such as the murder of opposition teens by throwing them off of an Alexandria rooftop last week, the much-feared Algeria 1992 redux may already have begun.

Yet as tragic—and even heartless—as this might seem, it would be better to have that civil conflict now then to wait until the Islamists are better armed and prepared, especially having been invited back into power to share the running of the state. That will give only them both renewed legitimacy and access to material resources that they do not deserve—and which the last year shows they will only abuse.

Luckily, the cost of keeping of them out may not in fact be civil war. That twenty-two million Egyptians signed the petition to oust Mursi circulated by the ad hoc group, Tamarod ("Rebel," with which the now "old" youth movements of January 25th 2011 belatedly joined forces), and that as many evidently marched to bring him down, as compared to the relative smallness of the protests demanding his return, shows a catastrophic loss of the MB's base. This only confirms the trend seen in the halving of votes for it between the 2011-12 parliamentary elections and Mursi's squeaker (possibly rigged) election victory for president in June 2012. From the beginning of the uprising against Mubarak until roughly ten days ago, the Islamists drew much, much larger crowds than their detractors—now the opposite is true, in apparently gargantuan proportions. And even the ease with which the army swept away the once awe-inspiring MB machine may provoke many of those formerly in its thrall to dump it in favor of the "strong horse" that bucked it off last week.

That said, for most of the June 30 demonstrators, it was arguably more the desperate economy than the MB's ideology that brought them to the streets. According to a Pew poll published April 30, 74 percent of Egyptian Muslims want the shari'a (Islamic law) to rule the land—which is the heart of the MB's program. Moreover, if large-scale fighting does break out, the military might split, making the scene more like Syria than Algeria.

Nonetheless, the MB's attempt to Islamistize (as I term it) every institution of Egyptian life—from the judiciary (which Mubarak found annoyingly independent, but—unlike Mursi—did little to change), to the educational system and the military, and all things in between—turned off even many pious Egyptians. Add to that its open alliance with convicted terrorists (releasing dozens of them from prison, trying to get the "Blind Sheikh," Omar Abdel-Rahman and his friends out of our prisons, conspiring with Abdel-Rahman's organization, al-Gama'a al-Islamiya to attack the U.S. embassy in Cairo and perhaps even in Benghazi last September 11 in a bid to pressure us to free him—even appointing a member of the group to be governor of the province where it carried out the devastating Luxor Massacre in 1997—and finally declaring jihad on the Assad regime in Syria), and there is simply no place for the MB and its Salafi allies (including those, like the Nour Party, have tactically turned against him now) in public life.

Add as well the numerous Coptic Christians (and finally Shi'ites, four of whom were hacked to death in Giza in June) murdered by the MB and the Salafis, with the obvious cooperation of official security forces, not to mention the scores of demonstrators butchered with blades or birdshot by the Brotherhood's militia long before the army finally moved, offer ample proof of this truth. Indeed, the idea of taming these jihadis—and that's what they call themselves—on the totally discredited theory that the responsibility of power will "moderate" them, is an idea only mad enough to be believed by world leaders, star journalists and Middle East experts in droves.

Hence neither the principal warning to General Abdel-Fattah al-Sisi—Mursi's Islamist, American-trained Defense Minister and military chief that turned against him (perhaps as much to protect the MB's Islamist program from the damage Mursi's leadership was inflicting on it as any other obvious motive) nor his own policy, ought to be about political inclusion (at least not of Islamists). Rather it should be to safeguard the still-vulnerable secular civil society and the nation's Christians and other minorities, rather than persecuting them as even the army, itself riddled with Muslim militants and their sympathizers, did even before Mursi.

Despite the dangers of growing violence, the removal of Mohamed Mursi is a truly promising moment for Egypt—and should be for us all. The Islamists have suffered their first great setback since the launching of the Arab Spring, one that threatens all their gains everywhere, from Cairo to Tunis, Tripoli to Benghazi, from Aleppo to Sanaa, and even perhaps to their Turkish neighbors in Ankara and Istanbul who have really begun to rebel under Recep Tayyep Erdogan's slier version of MB rule. Egypt has a long, long way to go to create a truly open, prosperous, and democratic society, and the path may be even more bloody, but only now does she have even the slightest chance to succeed. This is what we should be focused on now, rather than expecting a smooth, stable democracy while placating the forces of darkness--who can never be appeased.

Raymond Stock is a Shillman/Ginsburg Writing Fellow at the Middle East Forum, and a former Visiting Assistant Professor of Arabic and Middle East Studies at Drew University.


It goes to show most of these spring flowers are American funded and supplied. Cut-off the supplies and they start seeing reason.

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby Johann » 15 Jul 2013 17:10

SSridhar wrote:I am sure Al Nour, the salafist party, though it appears to be on the side of the Army at present does not have noble intentions. It is there to sabotage from within. It has already ensured that ElBaradei was not nominated. The Army is also probably aware of that but may not want to exacerbate matters much now by expelling Al Nour from its side. Rather, it would take the salafist's support up to a point of time to control the Islamist uprising of the Brotherhood. Determining the right time to get rid of the salafists would be the tricky part unless of course they force the issue somehow.


Al Nour is heavily Saudi backed, and the Saudis have had issues with the Brotherhood since 1990. The Saudis certainly did not want to see Mubarak overthrown.

Al Nour's opposition to El Baradei is more out of concern for its own prospects under a secular transitional government than sympathy for the Brotherhood, with which it is in competition with.
Last edited by Johann on 15 Jul 2013 17:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby Johann » 15 Jul 2013 17:14

Lalmohan wrote:always wondered why morsi appeared in public in western suit and tie - wasn't necessary, and he didn't look totally at ease


Its quite normal for the Brotherhood, going all the way back to the founder Hassan al-Banna.

Its sort of their trademark and their core brand appeal - modernity on Islamic terms- by combining suits with a beard.

The Salafis on the other hand market themselves with a total rejection of 'western' clothing.

Trying to embody your politics with your dress is pretty common - you can for example see what Bin Laden and Yasser Arafat were trying to convey about their movements relationships with modernity, identity and religion by comparing and contrasting their sartorial and grooming choices.

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Re: 2013 Egypt Coup - Morsi outsed

Postby ramana » 15 Jul 2013 23:39

In his book "Destiny Disrupted" Afghan American Muslim writer Tamim Ansary writes of that phase as Secular Modernism. He terms it as the West Comes East!

There are three streams:

Wahabism:Reversion to 'four pious' Caliph phase
Secular Modernism: Suit boot but Koran in mind and heart. Hudbaya in essence. Attatruk types.
Islamist Modernism: MB types inspired by our friend Jamaluddin Afghani.


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