Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan - Aug 21, 2013

[sadhana]

Here is the malcontent Sheikh Rashid in his own words:

http://www.zemtv.com/2013/08/16/on-the- ... gust-2013/

Threatening nukular winter in return for Injun TV programs insulting him

He says Nawaz Sharif asked 'is this a second Kargil happening'?

[ramana]

Pakistan is a post-colonial garrison state

Very superficial analysis. Pakistan is a kabila parked outside India, with the guards incharge wont let them settle down.

[rajanb]

Have you Maulaners realised one thing?

The demand for parcels of 72 houris has dropped drastically since last friddin?

Is something up?

[pankajs]

Suspected US Drone Kills 3 Militants in Pakistan

Pakistani intelligence officials say a suspected U.S. drone strike has killed at least three militants in a northwestern tribal region near the Afghan border.

They say two missiles hit a room of an abandoned seminary in Mussaki village in North Waziristan Saturday. Militants from Turkmenistan were among those at the seminary but the nationality of the dead was not immediately known.

[Philip]

Part-time activities of the Paki Navy,to make a lot of extra bucks!

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news- ... ches-probe

ISLAMABAD- Pakistan Navy has launched an internal probe under the direct supervision of one of its top bosses into the reported involvement of Navy personnel in the kidnappings for ransom and extortion activities in Pakistan's largest cosmopolitan city Karachi.
The Director General Naval Intelligence (DG NI) Jawed Akhar is leading the investigation under the command of Deputy Chief of Naval Staff (Administration) Vice Admiral Shafqat Jawed, it is learnt.
According to intelligence sources, the probe would also cover allegations involving the killing of a low-ranking Navy official at the hands of Naval Police and NI at the NHQ Islamabad last year.
A media report on Friday had revealed the involvement of three NI personnel including two assistant directors in the kidnapping of a trader from Karachi. The kidnappers had demanded a ransom of five million rupees for the trader's release. One of the abductors was nabbed after being shot by a police officer when he was receiving the ransom amount, the media report stated. Two of the three accused NI personnel are identified in the report as Assistant Director Ishfaq and Sepoy Dilpazir Akhtar while another reported assistant director remained unidentified.
Reportedly, this has rung alarm bells within the top naval circles after an initial internal probe is said to have verified the allegations regarding the involvement of naval personnel in extortions and kidnappings in Karachi.
Following this, Naval Chief Admiral Asif Sandila reportedly assigned the top officials at Operations Branch and NI directorate to conduct a detailed probe into these allegations.
A Pakistan navy commander at the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) in Islamabad and a navy commander at the NI in Karachi are jointly conducting the investigation and they would report the respective findings to the DG NI, to be shared with the Deputy Naval Chief (operations) before being put up to the Naval Chief, the intelligence sources said.
This is not the first time that NI officials have been found involved in allegedly highhanded methods against common citizens and even the Navy personnel. Last year, Naval Police had arrested a sweeper from the NHQ Islamabad on theft charges. He was reportedly handed over to the NI. Allegedly, the Naval Police and NI officials tortured the sweeper to death during the interrogation.
The deceased's father, who was also reported to be a Navy employee, had purportedly protested over the incident but the Naval authorities had allegedly hushed up the issue by financially accommodating the said person.
Back in 2011, journalist Saleem Shahzad had reported about alleged contacts between the Taliban militants and some naval officials before he was kidnapped and brutally killed.
Shahzad had reported that attack on Mehran Base in Karachi was the result of failed negotiations between the naval authorities and militants for the release of those navy officials who were probed for having alleged links with the militants and were detained at NHQ Karachi. Interestingly, the NHQ Karachi is the same place where the captive trader, according to Friday's media report, was kept.
Earlier, responding to the kidnapping allegations, Pakistan Navy's Spokesman Commodore Irfan-ul-Haq had said on Friday that Navy denied any involvement of NI personnel in abduction or extortion activities. The incident reported by a section of newspaper and media channel was being investigated in coordination with civil police, he had said, adding that if any of Navy person was found going beyond the lawful mandate, strict disciplinary action would be initiated accordingly.
The DG NI-led investigation, the intelligence officials said, is mandated to ascertain the extent of the involvement of Naval personnel in allegedly highhanded activities, by means of finding out the exact number of such kinds of incidents and the number of accused involved.
The revelation regarding NI personnel's alleged involvement in kidnappings and extortion has taken the Pakistan's political circles by storm with some parliamentarians questioning the credibility and capability of the intelligence agencies to deal with terrorism.
Referring to the NI, Senator Ghulam Ali wonders if an intelligence agency involved in extorting money from citizens could "counter Indian espionage," whereas Senator Zahid Khan suggests that the NI personnel, if proved guilty, "should be court-martialled."

[svinayak]

Pakistan is a post-colonial garrison state

Very superficial analysis. Pakistan is a kabila parked outside India, with the guards incharge wont let them settle down.

This author like the rest of the elite puts the blame on US for jihadis. Now he says US want it to be like another state. They have never been like that. It is confusing only. How easily they listen to US and try to agree with them. Their behaviour is determined by what US tells them.

Q. In your book, you have emphasized the influence of external powers like the US. What advice would you give to the US leadership with respect to its dealing with both the civilian and military leadership in Pakistan?

The US should realize that it bears a large share of responsibility for the growth of extremism. Now it wants Pakistan to be a modern type of civilian state. That means working with both the military and the civil government towards moderation and peace within, and peace with neighbours. I think the government of Mr Nawaz Sharif enjoys popular support and legitimacy, which Mr Gilani's government did not. Therefore this is the right time to help strengthen democracy in Pakistan. However, democracy is not simply a government elected through free and fair elections. Democracy requires a culture of tolerance and pluralism and that is where a great deal of work needs to be done by both concerned Pakistanis and their friends worldwide. - See more at: http://www.thefridaytimes.com/beta3/tft ... nlPSy.dpuf

[CRamS]

Guys, I am not tuned into this Syria tamasha filing US airwaves. Most likely, US will let go off some extra weapons at their disposal, Honcho military men will have their 15 minutes of fame (like David Patreus who in their 60's are stuck with spouses the same age will get some royal action with 30 something female biographers enamored by their masculinity of bombing Syria), CNN/Fox will get their ratings up with lots of running commentary, and there will be loads and loads of moralistic hot air from US elites declaring how they accomplished their God's diktat.

Now the relevance here is that the same "benevolent", "merciful" US, along with China found it convenient to equip TSP with nuke WMDs to keep us Hindus from acting up, and so question is, I wonder what is going in Kiyani and HafeezPig's minds as they watch US target practice over Syria. Will they wondering man, if we have to knock Mumbai or Delhi off with one of our nuke toys, what will US do to us? Or will they be quite confident that neither US nor its other 2.5 won't bother as long as their WMD harakiri is confined to us Hindus?

[Rudradev]

CRamS ji, what did US do to them after 9/11? There's your answer!

[chetak]

Pakistan conviniently loses 19,000 containers of lethal weapons

On August 30, one of the leading Pakistani news daily, Dawn reported around 19,000 shipping containers comprising weapons went missing from Karachi seaport. The news was more of a shocker and a concern than just a piece of news that one can have a glance at and move onto another news item. It was a cause of concern because Pakistan is our neighbour and a free exporter of terrorism to India. Therefore, we as Indians have to be on our toes as far as Pakistan is concerned. We were already facing a grim situation these days — thanks to Pakistan for its duty-free export of terrorism to India.

Dawn reported some 19,000 shipping containers comprising weapons and vehicles have gone missing from the Karachi port. It is indeed an alarming news for us Indians because of the recent developments in the Indian Sub-Continent. Last month, our intelligence agencies had caught an LeT operative Abdul Karim Tunda from Nepal and three days back, another big fish Yasin Bhatkal – a wanted terrorist was also caught near Indian-Nepal border by our forces. Now, the shipping containers gone missing is not a joke. But we must thank Dawn for providing vital information and it would definitely help us to keep our eyes wide open because of the Pakistani factor.

According to the news report, the Director General of the Sindh Rangers Maj-Gen Rizwan Akhtar on August 30, 2013 had told the Pakistani Supreme Court that around 19,000 shipping containers comprising weapons and vehicles had gone missing during the tenure of the former Minister for Ports and Shipping. The report also said that a five-member bench of the Pakistani Supreme Court headed by Chief Justice Iftikhar Mohammad Chaudhry, and comprising Justices Jawwad S Khawaja, Gulzar Ahmed, Athar Saeed and Azmat Saeed, was hearing the implementation of its judgement in the Karachi law and order case.

Chaudhry directed the Government authorities to submit a report on the illegal smuggling and theft of duty at Karachi’s seaports within the next seven days. He also formed a one-member commission, comprising former customs collector Ramzan Bhatti, and ordered the Federal Bureau of Revenue (FBR) to fully cooperate with the commission in investigating smuggling activities at the ports. But now, the question is will the Pakistani authorities take charge of the situation and act before these smuggled weapons get into the hands of miscreants or terrorists, who will be using them freely against India.

Dawn further reported that Supreme Court of Pakistan had ordered Nadra to complete its task of weapons registration in the shortest possible time. if this is true, then it will indeed be a good news for our Government, but if these Pakistani authorities are only making tall claims just like past, then it will definitely give a few goosebumps to Indian authorities. Well, it was the third consecutive hearing of the case held at the Karachi registry on Friday. It was attended by top Government officials, including the Inspector General Sindh, Additional IG, three Zonal IGs, DG Rangers Sindh Rizwan Akhtar and the Chief Secretary, along with other top official of the Sindh Government.

During the previous day’s proceedings, the Chief Justice had noted that a large quantity of arms and ammunition were being smuggled into Karachi through ports and supplied throughout the country. He had also pointed towards reports of about 19,000 containers with weapons and vehicles that had gone missing, and had asked DG Rangers Rizwan Akhtar to submit further details on the disappearance.

Presenting his report, Akhtar informed the bench on Friday that the matter of the missing containers was now a few years old and that they had disappeared during the tenure of the former minister for ports and shipping. Therefore, does it means that neither the Pakistani Apex Court nor Pakistani Government or for that matter DG Rangers Akhtar is serious or do not care about the missing ships laden with dangerous and lethal weapons?

According to the news report, Akhtar said that the weapons were taken to the tribal areas and then brought back to the port city adding that national and super highways and hub routes were used in their transportation. He informed the bench that there were ‘hundreds of routes’ between Sindh and Balochistan where there were several security check-posts but no law enforcement personnel to man them. To this, the DG Rangers said that illegally smuggled weapons previously of the US Army troops in Afghanistan were also recovered in Waziristan when he was serving in the restive tribal region. However, this again points a finger at Pakistani authorities carelessness.

The DG Rangers also told the SC that 78 per cent of the illegal weapons being used in Karachi were foreign-manufactured. He said these included AK-47s and 9mm guns, which were mainly used in murder crimes in the city. Akhtar also pointed to the lack of proper monitoring at the ports. He said that there was need for scanners as properly scanning thousands of containers was a very difficult task. Therefore, it will not be incorrect to say that these were the same weapons that Kasab used against India and right under the nose of Pakistani authorities.

But with so much weapon on the lose and no action yet by Pakistani authorities sends a signal that it was never serious or is serious about fighting terrorism. In fact, by letting such lose the nose of laws, it is only telling the world that Pakistan is the right place for the potential terrorists and whoever wants to indulge into anti-human activities can come to them by smuggling the weapons and then run away with the booties.

[Dipanker]

Have you Maulaners realised one thing?

The demand for parcels of 72 houris has dropped drastically since last friddin?

Is something up?

Badmash is negotiating with Taleban behind the scene. It will be interesting to see the outcome of this negotiation, hopefully more sharia for Pakistan to sink it deeper into Pakistan!

[Anindya]

MFN-status to India not on table for now: Pakistan FM Ishaq Dar

[Prem]

MFN-status to India not on table for now: Pakistan FM Ishaq Dar

The language in the title is so suggestive in many ways of Paki society.
In the mean time,
3 children found chained in ex-minister’s house
http://www.dawn.com/news/1039500/3-chil ... ters-house

LAHORE: Police arrested on Friday a former federal minister belonging to the PML-Q, Liaquat Abbas Bhatti, shortly after recovering from his Johar Town residence a 14-year-old housemaid allegedly tortured and chained along with her younger sister and brother. Police raided the place after receiving a tip about the illegal confinement of Shahida, her sister Zubaida and seven-year-old brother Irfan. Shahida was immediately sent to the Jinnah Hospital for medical examination as she had swollen legs and arms and torture marks suffered during ‘months-long’ detention in chains. .
Shahida told Dawn in the hospital that she had been confined by Mr Bhatti because of a Rs400,000 loan her father had taken from him. She alleged that Mr Bhatti had reduced her salary, as well as those of there siblings after their father obtained the loan. “Liaquat’s driver Wajid and two other employees tortured me when I refused to work at the new salary.He came to Lahore when Johar Town police informed him about the recovery of his children. Police denied media access to the arrested former MNA due to legal complications. Saddar Division SP (Operations) Jehanzeb quoted Liaquat Bhatti as claiming that he had not detained the children for forced labour.“Actually my driver is responsible for the illegal confinement of the children. He kept them in the servant quarter over some issues,” he was reported to have said.

[Prem]

The Looneytune
TTP=Torr Torr Pakistan deny secret peace talks with government

MIRANSHAH: A spokesperson for the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) on Saturday denied reports that the government was holding peace talks with the insurgent group.“I categorically deny the holding of peace talks on any level between the Taliban and Pakistani government,” Shahid told AFP from an undisclosed location.“No contacts have even been made between us, nor have we received any offer to initiate peace talks” Shahid added.
BBC Urdu, quoting an unnamed senior government official and a Taliban commander, also reported the beginning of peace talks.“It is complete propaganda, the government must make it public if it has any proof of any such talks,” Shahid said.The reports of peace talks emerged almost two weeks after Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif made an offer to the extremists in his first televised address to the nation since taking office after winning elections in May.Previous peace deals have rapidly unravelled, and were criticised by the United States and at home for allowing militants space to regroup before launching new waves of attacks.

[Peregrine]

Have you Maulaners realised one thing?

The demand for parcels of 72 houris has dropped drastically since last friddin?

Is something up?

rajanb Ji :

Punchhee, Kahay Haut Udaas?

1. Street crimes : Girl killed over gold earrings

2. Shootout : Cop, rickshaw driver shot dead outside sessions court

Cheers

[ramana]

Pakistan is a post-colonial garrison state

Very superficial analysis. Pakistan is a kabila parked outside India, with the guards incharge wont let them settle down.

here is a link to my 1999 post on role of Pak Military. The original was written in 1997!

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... f=12&t=308

Cleaned up version for readability

A couple of years ago I first wrote this and posted it in BRF about a year ago. I think it is still relevant as Mushy has taken over. ----------

Pakistan Military''s role in society

The military in Pakistan has had an important role in society to put it mildly. It dominates every facet of life in Pakistan. Since Independence from British rule, it has seized and retained power for ~25 of the fifty years. By any stretch that is a long time. In 1997 the creation of National Security Council, by the interim government has institutionalized the power of the military. In fact Gen. Karamat's remarks enunciating foreign policy after the election of Sharief government are reiteration of where the power is. It is interesting to examine the various factors.

Orgins

The military owes its origins to the Pre-Independence British Indian Army (BIA). The British subscribing to the "theory of martial races" recruited to the Muslim regiments largely from Punjab and North West Frontier Provinces(NWFP). While the executive and judiciary of British India were largely Hindu, the military had a large proportion of Muslims. This fact was noted by politicians like Sikander Hyat and others. In fact they derived their political strength from the large contingent recruited from modern day Pakistan. The Indian Army which also owes its origins to the BIA is apolitical. However in its traditions it too had its share of political elements which were purged after the 1857 struggle. In fact about 23 regiments were disbanded. Also note the emergence of INA and the RIN mutiny during and after the Second World War. A more recent example is the mutiny of some Sikh units after the 1984 Golden Temple incident. The lesson to learn is internal politics dictate the political values of the military.

Role of History

However the Pak military role is more deeper and complex. It involves itself in every aspect of life in Pakistan. It sees itself as the guardian and protector of the Islamic nature of Pakistan society and culture. It fears cultural assimilation by its neighbor India which has a larger Muslim population. This would mean of loss of its ethos and individuality. It behaves as defacto occupying force. The origins of this behavior can be traced to pre-Mughal Islamic states which were ruled by military governors appointed by the center. The civil and judicial elements were subordinate to the military governor. The Mughal conquest and subsequent Sikh and British rule did nothing to disturb the feudal structure. In fact the entire society was fossilized and did not develop other elements. A comparison of the role of military in other Islamic majority states is striking. In Algeria, Turkey and Egypt the military is secular and leading the fight against fundamentalism. In Saudi Arabia and Gulf countries it is neutral force supportive of the crown. In Malaysia and Indonesia it is largely neutral. In Indonesia, except for the military takeover by Suharto in reaction to Communist coup attempt, the military has been a benign force. Only in Pakistan does the military involve itself in religious matters. Interestingly Pak military rulers from Field Marshal Ayub Khan to Gen. Zia ul Haq retained their military rank even after assuming Presidential office lending credence to Mao's adage "Power grows from the barrel of the gun." Pakistan behaves as a frontier outpost of the old Islamic empire which could be assimilated culturally by its large neighbor. It adopts extreme positions in religious matters to prove its proximity to orthodoxy. Aristocracy The years of military rule during Zia also saw the breakdown of existing feudal structure. For generations the landed aristocracy, "the notables" wielded enormous influence. The peasantry had to seek their favor to get things done. But during the Zia years the peasants found they could bypass the old regime and work directly with the military. The old aristocracy is remarkable in the relationships it has among itself. It intermarries among members of its class to preserve the linkages to the invaders of the past. It prides itself on its exclusiveness the lineage to ancient conquerors. There is not much interaction between the different strata. Infact along with the military it is akin to a Persian carpet which smothers the aspirations of the evolving Pakistan society. The years of military rule also allowed the development of the trading class as political venues were closed. It is this class of economics minded people who could represent a ray of hope. This is in addition to the traditional traders of Indian origin who migrated after Independence. The fear of cultural assimilation and the fear that somehow these people are not fully integrated into Pak society is the root cause of the Mohajir problem. The end of Cold War has lead to a need for changes in the political makeup of Pak society. The US is not interested in supporting dictatorships. However the military wants to retain power The creation of the National Security Council(NSC) creates a democratic facade to the military rule. No longer does the military have to stage coup. It can act at the behest of the NSC.

Conclusion

In conclusion Pakistan society has to be allowed to develop in other dimensions. It has to evolve into a democratic society which is interested in economic development of its citizens and peaceful cooperation with its neighbors. This can happen when the society feels its existence is not threatened; it is confident in its cohesiveness. The common factor among other Islamic countries is their feeling of self and nationhood. The world community can assist this transition by encouraging measures which boost the civilian society and develop confidence in its existence. [This message has been edited by ramana (edited 27-10-1999).]

[Peregrine]

Drop by Drop....

Gunmen attack clinic in Karachi, four killed

Cheers

[SSridhar]

Back Channels Working on Man Mohan - Sharif Meet - Sandeep Dikshit, The Hindu

GoI must explain to its people why is it playing a double game with them by saying one thing and doing the very opposite ? The border situation is escalating, there is no movement from TSP side on the slaying of Indian soldiers, the MFN is now officially delayed (and more than that, Pakistan wants to use MFN to setup a one-on-one meeting with Man Mohan Singh which would be a sure recipe for disaster for India's interests), there is no let up on infiltration, the TSP policy on Afghanistan and the proximity with non-state actors are the same as ever, the new PM is plodding along the same lines without any fresh thinking etc. With TSP, substantial changes on the ground realities alone can be taken as a measure of thaw and even then we have to be extremely cautious always on the lookout for the first minor sign of reversal.

Does GoI believe that Tunda & Bhatkal signal a reversal of TSP policy towards India ? GoI would be making a gross mistake once again if that is the case. It is like the two brothers of Dawood Ibrahim returning to India or Dawood's cook returning to India a few years back. Though nothing accrued to India, we do not know how GoI interpreted their return. Probably as a sign of reversal of TSP approach towards non-state actors ? What concessions did India offer to TSP in return ? We always prided in going more than half the distance, didn't we ?

[anupmisra]

More rhona dhona in pakistoniland. “Our national sport has died”

Former Olympians and fans Saturday mourned the darkest day in Pakistan's sporting history after the former field hockey titans failed to qualify for the World Cup for the first time ever

Pakistan have suffered a serious slump in field hockey

Olympian Shahnaz Shaikh said he felt heart-broken at hockey's downfall

“Why I am alive to see this day?”

It's sad, sad and sad

Hanif Khan, a member of country's last Olympic gold medal winning team in 1984, said Pakistan hockey had gone back 25 years

Ejaz Chaudhry said the hockey team's failure was a “national tragedy”.

“Shame”

That's right folks. Its a national tragedy and a shame of significant proportions for a nation whose history is equated with such hyperboles such as the loss of H&D in 1965, east pakistoneyland, 93000 PoWs, Kargil, attack on the lankans, OBL in their midst, begging for alms from the IMF...you name it, this hockey shame exceeds it.

Why, it seems it was just yesterday when the pakis could do no wrong (if you read the headlines...):

Pakistan thump Japan 7-0
Bajwa backs Pakistan to win Asia Cup despite tough pool

“I am sure our players can beat the best sides in the world since they have the skill and the stamina to do so,”

Asked whether luck can play any part in Pakistan victory, Bilal said: “Let’s not confuse skill and stamina with luck in this highly technical game because you have to be prefect in defence, attack and your finishing act to go top.”

[Philip]

Like the proverbial lemmings,the UPA regime seems dead in intent to engineer a "p*ss in our time" with Pak,and the missing PM of India will appear on the world stage embracing the Paki PM of terror.If that happens,truly will the UPA regime be politicaly dead.A vote for any party or combine,including a "turd alternative" would be anything more palatable than seeing this (unprintable) regime staying on for a turd term.But the Q I want to ask our beloved economic expert,expert no doubt at destroying economies ,is there nothing sacred left in our country for him to abuse? What he has with his unashamed lust for Pak achieved ,is the dishonouring of the Indian armed forces and the debasement of his sacred duty to protect the nation as the first and most sacred duty of any PM.

Like Gujral,there is more love in his heart for his lost firdaus of Gah in Pak,than his fake address in Assam! That open and most indecent lie to the Indian nation has allowed this unelected parasite to devastate India,allowing his cabinet cronies and hangers on to loot and scoot at will.He now brazenly says that he is not responsible for the coal files,etc.,forgetting who handed out the lucrative contracts.That such a species of humanity,so economical with the truth, still represents the nation is also a shocking indictment of the combined Opposition who have failed to unseat this "don",more destructive to the nation than that "don" who resides in Karachi.Perhaps the next meeting in this sordid act of appeasement of Pak will be a meeting between the two "dons"! Politics makes "strange bedfellows",it is said. We will witness at the UN the shameful betrayal of India as two men from the Indian sub-continent begin their love-fest!

[rajanb]

Drop by Drop....

Gunmen attack clinic in Karachi, four killed

Cheers

And I thought it was flood time?

[SSridhar]

Jinnah Tapes to be Handed Over to Pakistan - Prashant Jha,

India will hand over copies of two speech-recordings of Muhammad Ali Jinnah to Pakistan, but says it does not have a recording of his famous August 11, 1947 address to the country’s Constituent Assembly (CA).
{Anyway, Pakistanis do not like that speech and portions of it were blacked out even when Jinnah was alive}
The decision comes in response to a request by the Pakistan Broadcasting Corporation (PBC) and after a year-long battle by Right to Information activist Subhash Chandra Agrawal to access the recordings.

On March 29, 2012, the-then PBC Director General Murtaza Solangi wrote to the All India Radio (AIR) Director General Leeladhar Mandloi requesting him to provide a copy of Mr. Jinnah’s first presidential address to the CA in Karachi.

Mr. Solangi noted that he was told during his visit to the AIR in November 2011 that the speech was in the archives. In that speech, Mr. Jinnah had spoken of his vision of Pakistan as a state with equal citizens, irrespective of community, colour, caste and creed, and said people were free to go to their places of worship.

But AIR said that while it did not have a copy of that particular speech, it had two other recordings “We will hand over the copies of the recordings to Pakistan at the earliest. We have got clearances from the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting (I&B),” Mr Mandloi told The Hindu .

In one speech, delivered to Pakistan’s CA, Mr. Jinnah said it would be their constant effort to work for the welfare and well-being of “all the communities in Pakistan.” Stating that the “tolerance and goodwill” shown by Emperor Akbar was “not of recent origin,” he said that “13 centuries ago … our Prophet not only by words but deeds treated the Jews and Christians handsomely after he conquered them.”

Mr. Jinnah added that the “whole history of Muslims where they ruled is replete with those humane and great principles” and should be “followed and practised by us.” The message of Pakistan’s founding father assumes contemporary political relevance at a time of attacks on minorities in Pakistan. The second speech is a direct broadcast by Mr. Jinnah on June 3, 1947, right after the Transfer of Power plan was announced, discussing its implications and appealing to all to maintain “peace and order.”

In June last year, The Hindu reported details of PBC’s request to AIR. Mr. Agrawal attached the news clipping to file an application with AIR, seeking recording of the speech and other related information. He was initially told that recordings were being searched for and would take time, while it was later conveyed that these were under exemption provisions and could not be disclosed. AIR also referred the matter to the I&B Ministry and the Ministry of External Affairs (MEA).

Mr. Agrawal then appealed to the Central Information Commission, which issued an important order in June this year, stating it would be “regressive” for any public authority to “take the stand that everything related to Pakistan or the leaders who went over to Pakistan should be kept secret or confidential.” Chief Information Commissioner Satyanand Mishra added it was the “duty of the state” to make such records available freely to the public so that the “citizenry becomes informed and research scholars get valuable material.” He directed AIR to publish a list of all such recordings on their website, and said it was “high time” for authorities to take a final view on the Jinnah recordings and decide within two months. The CIC order appears to have expedited the decision. On August 22, the I&B Ministry gave its clearance, paving the way for copies of the recording to be shared, and handed over to Pakistan.

[wig]

Pak moves artillery guns to LoC opposite Mendhar

Pakistani troops opened fire in Mendhar and Balakote sectors on Friday night from 11.15 pm to 3 am and in Saujiyan area from 4 am to 4.15 am; the Indian Army gave an equal response

Pakistani troops again opened fire in Pallanwala area of Akhnoor sub division on friday night injuring soldier Amit Singh of 28 Rajputana Rifles, reports said.

and further,

On the lines of what they did in Kargil War in 1999, the Pakistan Army has adopted an aggressive posture moving artillery guns along the Line of Control (LoC) opposite Mendhar sector in Poonch district, 230 km northwest of Jammu.

“We have observed artillery movement opposite Mendhar sector. While an artillery battery usually comprises six guns, they (Pak Army) have certainly moved two to three artillery guns opposite Mendhar,” said a senior Army officer.

So far, Pakistan had been using battalion level weapons -- small arms fire and automatics, including rocket propelled grenades and mortars (82 mm) -- drawing similar response from the Indian side, he said.

Though the artillery has not been used by them till now, but possibility of using it (following artillery movement opposite Mendhar) cannot be ruled out, he said. The officer said the use of artillery amounts to war. “We are keeping a constant watch on developments unfolding on the other side and accordingly devising our strategy,” he said.

Heavy shelling by Pak troops in June last year had forced India to eventually move an artillery battalion from Mendhar to the Krishna Ghati sector but it was never used. The stand-off ended only after a Brigade-commander level meeting that paved the way for the resumption of the trans-border trade and travel via Chakan-da-Bagh.

The officer also said that senior officers of the Pakistan Army in the past couple of days have conducted aerial and ground recce on the other side of the LoC opposite Poonch, Saujiyan, Mendhar and Hamirpur belts in Poonch sector.

Since August 8, the Indian Army has destroyed 15 Pakistani posts and several bunkers opposite Poonch, Mendhar and Hamirpur areas with weapons such as mortars, rocket launchers and automatic weapons, including anti-material guns.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2013/20130901/main6.htm

[sum]

^^ 15 TSP posts destroyed ( as per above report)? Wonder what their body count is.

The Pakis certainly seem to be experiencing Juhannum in the last month, it seems

[JohnTitor]

Why, it seems it was just yesterday when the pakis could do no wrong (if you read the headlines...):

Pakistan thump Japan 7-0
Bajwa backs Pakistan to win Asia Cup despite tough pool

“I am sure our players can beat the best sides in the world since they have the skill and the stamina to do so,”

Asked whether luck can play any part in Pakistan victory, Bilal said: “Let’s not confuse skill and stamina with luck in this highly technical game because you have to be prefect in defence, attack and your finishing act to go top.”

Saar, you misunderstand - luck is dependent on being able to find people to accept "stuff". Unfortunately, there was no luck to pay out as the IMF loans have not come through.

[Peregrine]

Drop by Drop....

Gunmen attack clinic in Karachi, four killed

Cheers

And I thought it was flood time?

Etu Tu rajanb Ji?

Neither snow nor rain nor floods nor sand storms nor earthquakes nor heat nor gloom of night nor the winds of change, nor a nation challenged stays these Pakistani Terrorist Angels of Death from the swift slaughter of not only Non-Muslims but also less-green than the True Green Muslims.

Kapish!

Cheers

[member_26255]

Have you Maulaners realised one thing?

The demand for parcels of 72 houris has dropped drastically since last friddin?

Is something up?

Sir jee, the almighty is all merciful.

IED blast in N Waziristan kills nine Army soldiers: ISPR

PESHAWAR: At least nine soldiers were killed and nine others wounded in an Improvised Explosive Device (IED) blast in North Waziristan tribal region's Boya area on Sunday according to Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) sources.

A convoy of military vehicles was travelling from Datakhel area to Miramshah area when it was struck by a remotely-detonated bomb planted on the roadside in Boya area of North Waziristan tribal region.

At least nine soldiers had died and nine others were wounded in the explosion.

The victims were shifted to the Combined Military Hospital.

A daily curfew is imposed in the area from 4 pm evening till 5am in the morning ensure safe passage for the moveent of military personnel. Militants often used IEDs to target military personnel due to the curfew.

[anupmisra]

IED blast in N Waziristan kills nine Army soldiers: ISPR

PESHAWAR: At least nine soldiers were killed and nine others wounded in an Improvised Explosive Device (IED) blast in North Waziristan tribal region's Boya area on Sunday according to Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) sources.

Now that all houris are being diverted to serve the Syrian jehadis, who will serve these non-ayrab momeens?

[anupmisra]

Note the stunned/worried looks on these momeens' faces.

[rajanb]

^^^I think they realise that they are getting recycled maal?

I have always been a proponent of a Green Implosion. Hakimji used to disagree with me saying it would cost us more grief. His argument was that their nuclear bums would fall into the wrong hands. And become our problem.

The way things are going; from Yemen to Sudan, Iraq to Syria, I always argued that it would become everyone's problem. So I guess, prevention being better than cure, the other powers that be, including us, are keeping the implosion from happening.

Complicated werld. John Wayne would have set it right in a jiffy.

[RCase]

^^^

Is the soldier on the left RA ajint, Ram Singh of the saffron bandits?

[Prem]

^^^
Is the soldier on the left RA ajint, Ram Singh of the saffron bandits?

Not Casedeen, That is the new replacement of "phriendship" bracelet by company commander of the originally given by the childhood Mullah to celebrate the special bond and M-orral. tended by Ghazi in this world and martyrs in other world.

[Peregrine]

Jeenay Do Karachi Ko : PML-N, PPP, PTI, PST, JI say no to military operation

Cheers

[vishvak]

^from above

3) Are law-enforcing and intelligence agencies responsible for deteriorating law & order situation in the city? {that's probably also includes naval HQ being centre of extortion}
..
f) Authentication of all the intelligence reports.
..
Karachi's police was the most unfortunate one in the whole Pakistan as the good cops were always target-killed after an operation.
..
Karachi can become a cradle of peace within a month if ..
..

[arun]

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan opposes intervention in Syria:

Pakistan urges strong American restraint over Syria

The stance adopted by the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is the opposite of that taken by her patron, Saudi Arabia:

Saudi Arabia Backs International Intervention Against Assad

This is not the first time of late that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan has taken a stance that is diametrically opposed to that taken by their Saudi Arabian patrons.

The Pakistani stance on Egypt's crackdown on Islamists :

NA expresses concern over use of force against protestors in Egypt

The opposite Saudi Arabian stance on Egypt's crackdown on Islamists:

Saudi king backs Egypt's military

So what gives? Has Saudi Arabia turned off the cash spigot?

[Dipanker]

^
That may be the reason. Despite begging through the media for $15 billion, the Saudies have just promised only $100 million and that too as a loan. not free money.

[Prem]

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2013/20130901/pers.htm
Indo-Pak relations: New beginnings, old endings?by Raj Chengappa

With so much ground having been covered on the subject of India-Pakistan relations I approach the subject with trepidation. Everyone knows the outstanding issues between the two countries: terrorism, Kashmir, trade, Siachen, Sir Creek, water and visas. The solutions to these have been discussed threadbare, both at the official level and by think-tanks like the Jinnah Institute. Yet today we apparently seem no closer to solving them than when I first started covering Indo-Pak relations under dramatic circumstances in 1990.This was when war threatened the sub-continent again. I was with India Today then and analysing the outcome of such an imminent battle by interviewing experts. I was surprised when General Krishnaswamy Sundarji, who had retired by then as Chief of Army Staff, used the interview to send a message to Islamabad that India was ready to massively retaliate if Pakistan ever launched a nuclear attack. To recall, as tensions mounted, Pakistan’s Foreign Minister Yakub Khan had met the then Indian Foreign Minister, IK Gujral, and apparently threatened a nuclear strike if war broke out. This incident resulted in the infamous Robert Gates mission from the US to bring down temperatures.Manmohan Singh should talk to Nawaz in the US. The cost of not engaging is high for both countries as it would send wrong signals to the world, which would be detrimental to both. If India doesn’t want to engage directly with Pakistan then busybodies like the US and UN would come forward to be interlocutors.Today, even though there is no immediate threat of a war, relations between the two countries have deteriorated rapidly in 2013 over a series of border incidents and ceasefire violations that have shattered the hard-fought tranquillity agreement reached a decade ago. The season of hope that Nawaz Sharif ushered in when he was elected Prime Minister in May by promising a “New Beginning” with India, has dramatically and inexplicably descended to one of despair, anger and hostility with Parliaments of the two countries losing no time in passing resolutions condemning each other for the violence on the Line of Control (LoC). The two armies continue to exchange fire on a daily basis on the LoC.The sense of déjà vu is overwhelming as the pendulum of relations between the two countries continues to oscillate between two extremes with metronomic regularity.
Start & stop
Now on issues like terror and Kashmir, it is back to default positions, as it is for Siachen, Sir Creek and trade, even though a new government is in the saddle in Pakistan. The hardliners are out in India, saying that Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh, shouldn’t even talk with Nawaz Sharif, his counterpart, in New York in September till Pakistan shows credible progress in reining in terror elements and speeding up the trial to convict the perpetrators of 26/11. To sum up, India and Pakistan have moved from fighting, to fighting and talking, then fighting about fighting, then talking about talking, then talking and fighting and now back to talking about talking.The title of my lecture “New Beginnings, Old Endings?” ends with a question mark, and is not in the affirmative. Unlike Stephen Cohen, who has titled his new book on the India-Pakistan conundrum ‘Shooting for a Century,’ I do not believe that it may take till 2047 for us to live peacefully together. That I am afraid would be too late. In all likelihood we would have annihilated ourselves either through our nuclear weapons or by disintegration into warring states built on ethno-linguistic and religious lines — reverting back to the times preceding British rule.In the brief but dismal sweep that I presented on relations between the two countries, it is not as if progress has not been made. I would rather look at the glass as half full than half empty. There are visible signs of thaw. There are now trains and buses moving across the borders with regularity. There is trading going on across the Kashmirs and Punjabs. There are more cultural exchanges and people-to-people contact than ever before.
In the new century, there is both a new India and a new Pakistan that instead of repeating history can change its course and thereby their collective destinies. I have as yet not given up hope that our people will enjoy the dividends of such a peace.The big questions, though, remain. Many of these are dependent on the big shifts in power structures that the two countries have experienced or have been experiencing recently: Would Nawaz Sharif 3.0 rule be different from his first and second versions as Prime Minister? Would UPA-II get another chance as UPA-III, as Sonia Gandhi hoped recently? Or will a BJP-led coalition or a Third Front consisting of a motley crowd of regional parties capture power in the 2014 General Elections? What then are the implications or prospects for peace between India and Pakistan?To come to the first question: Does India think Nawaz Sharif 3.0 would be any different? On the day of the elections, Nawaz Sharif invited me for breakfast at his house in Raiwind. Despite being in the eye of the electoral storm, he remained super-cool and confident of winning. Over a meal of plenty of fruit and cups of kahva, he outlined his priorities.For Nawaz Sharif the biggest challenge was the dismal state of the Pakistan economy. The other big issue he said was internal security in his country, pointing out 40,000 lives had been lost to terrorism. When it came to relations with India, he told me, “We need to pick the threads from where we both left them in 1999. That was a defining moment and I think we will have to start the journey again from the same point.”
On the issue of asserting the supremacy of the civilian government over the army to ensure the past was not repeated, Nawaz Sharif’s reply was guarded but firm: “If all the institutions adhere to the Constitution, nothing will go wrong with this country. We have all learnt that lesson. My party firmly believes in the rule of the law and adhering to the Constitution and judiciary.”Will Nawaz 3.0 work?
Nawaz 3.0 was laying out his priorities in a vastly different environment than what his first two terms as Prime Minister were. In his first term between1990 and 1993, Nawaz 1.0 was the army’s choice with right wing support as Prime Minister. He focused, as he claims, on ushering in economic reforms that India “copied”.. But then there was the disastrous Kargil campaign, the coup and his ignominious exile to Jeddah in Saudi Arabia. As he told me when I met him in Jeddah in 2004 for his first major interview, “Vajpayee said that I had stabbed him in the back and he was absolutely right to think so. But then he did not know that my own general had stabbed me in the back.”When I met Nawaz Sharif during the 2008 election, despite him having been in exile the PML-Q did surprising well and returned as a major force. Sharif was clear then that he wouldn’t topple the PPP-led government, though he did pull out from the coalition soon after. As Opposition leader, he did keep his word. Shahbaz Sharif, his younger brother, performed exceptionally well as Chief Minister of Punjab as the recent polls had affirmed. Nawaz 3.0 is certainly wiser, telling me the lessons of life have taught him “humility” and “to be a go-getter”. I believe that Nawaz Sharif is sincere and in his relations with India he would like to exorcise the ghosts of Kargil that must be haunting him.Meanwhile, it’s been a little over two months as Prime Minister and clearly Nawaz Sharif is struggling to assert himself. When David Cameron asked Sharif what his three top priorities were after he was sworn in as Prime Minister, he said, “Number one the economy, number two the economy, and number three the economy.”
When I interviewed Sartaj Aziz in May, the day after Nawaz Sharif’s victory, the former Pakistan finance minister told me that for the first time in Pakistan’s history its growth rate was below 3 per cent, down from the average of 5 per cent for the first 55 years. Compounded by a yearly population growth rate of 2 per cent, there was hardly any increase in per capita income. Worse, the previous government’s irresponsible fiscal management had seen the total debt balloon to (Pakistan) Rs 13 trillion. Now debt servicing consumed 50 per cent of the tax revenues.If Pakistan has to meet its developmental objectives, it would have to attract loads of foreign investment or borrow heavily from the International Monetary Fund or privatise its loss-making public sector units. Or, do all of the above. It would require an internal situation that is stable and for investors to feel safe. For that peace with India would be an obvious imperative. Yet inexplicably we have seen relations with India deteriorate after Nawaz Sharif has come to power.The Sharif government has been having a torrid time handling the internal security situation, with terror attacks or incidents of sectarian strife happening every day. The law and order situation in Karachi has descended to precarious levels. Sharif had told me he would secure Parliament support for a “multi-faceted and multi-pronged approach” to deal with internal terror groups and extremist elements. It is early days as yet, but it is apparent that more than Parliament he would need the backing of the armyBy far Nawaz Sharif's biggest challenge is to assert the supremacy of his civilian government over the Army and also take an activist higher judiciary along with him . India has viewed the escalation of incidents on the LoC as a sign of the Pakistan Army asserting its turf in the new balance of power that is emerging. The army, according to analysts, is proclaiming its supremacy over foreign policy and internal security issues and wants Nawaz Sharif to concentrate on the economy and deliver there firstThe feeling among top Indian functionaries was that the Pakistan Army was not keen on Nawaz moving forward on relations with India at a quicker pace. That could partly explain why the new government has cooled off with regard to granting India the Most Favoured Nation (MFN) status, . Nawaz Sharif is also said to be close to the right wing parties and Hafiz Saeed operates out of Punjab, the state Nawaz’s PML-Q governs, with impunity.India is concerned with the lack of continuity in terms of foreign policy whenever there is a regime change in Pakistan. During Pervez Musharraf's rule, India had invested a lot on back-channel talks between its interlocutor, the sagacious Satinder K. Lambah and Pakistan's Tariq Aziz. A near agreement was reached on the Kashmir question but on this issue also the new Pakistan government claims it has to update itself on the talks. Indian analysts hope that it means the new government wants to put its own stamp on key issues but would move forward on them.The silver lining for India is that Nawaz Sharif has maintained a politically correct approach, expressing sadness at the incidents on the border and maintaining in his letter to the Indian Prime Minister on the eve of Independence Day that “I look forward to our meeting in New York to discuss issues of mutual interest. It is our desire to turn a fresh page in our bilateral relations.”In a recent interview with a British newspaper he used a similar metaphor when asked whether the army was on the same page as he was concerning relations with India and internal security issues. He said, “We’re all on one page. There’s only one page and that is the page of the Government of Pakistan.”While Pakistan's Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani and the ISI are seen by India as the mastermind of the recent LoC machinations, there are those in Pakistan like former army chief General Jehangir Karamat who feel that the army has changed visibly in the past five years. There is little doubt that Kayani has restored the prestige of the Pakistan Army after its credibility took a severe beating during the final years of Musharraf’s reign and the humiliation over the killing of Osama bin Laden on Pakistan’s territory. Importantly, the army allowed a civilian government to complete its full five-year term and make way for a democratic transition — again a first in the country.The Pakistan army is no longer seen as a government in waiting and Karamat sees the chance of another coup in future as receding. Nawaz Sharif has recently talked of formulating such a strategy and has constituted a Cabinet Committee on National Security which he heads to work out the framework and implement it. The outcome will be watched keenly, as it would indicate the new balance between the civilian government and the army.
Indian experts though remain sceptical about whether the army has truly reformed itself and will be content to play second fiddle to a civilian government in matters of foreign policy and internal security. As one Indian expert told me, “All this talk of waiting for a stable civilian government is hogwash. We all know that the army calls the shots and it has been a stable organisation for decades.”

While these remain the concerns of India, the current UPA government has other major issues to worry about that prevent it from making any big moves towards Pakistan. .Meanwhile, with the splitting of Andhra Pradesh into two states, the UPA government finds itself in a pickle. Maoist rebels continue to strike with disconcerting regularity, as the ‘Red’ menace continues to be the biggest internal security threat that the country faces despite Central and state government efforts to rein it in. And after a couple of years of peace, there are worrying signs of unrest in Jammu and Kashmir that again point to a Pakistan hand.For the UPA government, the prognosis is not good, with recent opinion polls showing that they will be voted out of power in the next General Election in 2014. But then nor do these give the BJP a majority despite the rise of the controversial Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi. Indications are that India may end up with a ragtag coalition that is unlikely to be stable or focused.This would also be at the back of Nawaz Sharif’s mind as well as the Pakistan army as it contemplates re-looking at relations with India. Nawaz Sharif may think it not wise to invest too much in the UPA government and may decide to wait till there is political clarity after the 2014 General Election. India did the same by hitting the pause button till the results of the May 2013 General Election in Pakistan. While Manmohan Singh continues to push for good relations with Pakistan despite the recent LoC incidents, his hands are tied because of the weakness of the UPA coalition and the strident opposition from the BJP and other parties, which makes a political consensus for bettering relations with Pakistan difficult at the moment.
Despite all this, I believe that Manmohan Singh should talk with Nawaz Sharif in New York on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly. I disagree with the 40 Indian experts who signed a statement that there should be no talks till Pakistan delivers on containing terror and brings to book the 26/11 perpetrators as it would be seen as a “sign of appeasement” and “weakness”.The cost of not engaging with each other is high for both countries as it would send all kinds of wrong signals to the world that would be detrimental to both. If India doesn’t want to engage directly with Pakistan then busybodies like the US and UN would come forward to be interlocutors. Also at an international forum like the UN it would look odd if India refused to speak to Pakistan, as it would only exacerbate concerns that the two are back on the brink of war, which may dissuade foreign investors from coming in. Talks though may end up with Manmohan Singh reiterating India’s concerns about terror to Nawaz Sharif, with very little forward movement on other key issues like trade.
Restore tranquillity on the LoC
But they are clear that for significant progress they would first like the new Pakistan government to ensure tranquillity restored on the LoC apart from significant forward movement on the 26/11 case and visible efforts to rein in the terror groups, particularly those led by Hafiz Saeed. Pakistan must understand how angered and anguished the Indian people feel about the lack of a speedy trial and punishment for the perpetrators of the Mumbai attack. The Indian approach, as I understand it now, is “Verify and then Trust” rather than “Trust and Verify.”I would now like to narrate a few anecdotal incidents that illustrate the forces that would drive the narrative in future and why it is imperative that the two countries make peace with each other. When I walked across from the Wagah border to the Pakistan immigration complex on Wednesday the imperatives were obvious. I was bathed in sweat in five minutes as there was no power and the few fans that creaked only added to the humidity. At the immigration desk, there were two young lady officers, who processed my visa and when they heard I was giving a talk at the Jinnah Institute, one said, “Why are we at each other’s throats again? Please push the cause for peace between the two countries.”
On the five-hour drive from Lahore to Islamabad, I couldn’t but help notice how similar our cultures were. I had driven from Chandigarh to Amritsar, crossing cities that evoke nostalgia among Pakistanis — Ludhiana, Jalandhar, Kapurthala and, of course, Amritsar. When I entered Pakistan, I found that the landscape was similar, probably a little greener here, given Lahore’s extensive canal systems.On the way, we stopped for a meal short of the turning to Sargoda and the dhaba too had no power — they had a battery back-up for a music player that belted out deafening Punjabi songs, much like the Indian dhabas. The menu was similar, though the food was cooked with more oil on this side of the border. The Punjabi spoken here was no different, including the swear words! There were flashy SUVs that people on both sides of the divide like to show off when they commute.My taxi driver, Nadeem, a 26-year-old, had the same query as the immigration officers — why don’t relations improve between the two countries so that we could help each other develop. He rattled off the Indian movies he had seen, including Chennai Express that has just been released in India, his favourite actor being Nana Patekar and the role he played in the movie on the 26/11 attack.
Nadeem said his grandmother talked nostalgically of how Hindus and Muslims lived in harmony before Partition and participated in each other’s festivals. He wanted to know if Indian roads were as good as the motorway we were driving on and said he was very keen to visit India, lamenting that he had no relatives on that side of the border to sponsor a trip for him.
ne can ask: Are these two conversations relevant to the topic on hand? Yes — because both, the young immigration officers and Nadeem, are in many ways representative of the new, young Pakistan that is emerging. Like in India, they have become a substantial demographic bulge in Pakistan’s population statistics. Of Pakistan’s 180 million, close to 67 per cent are below 30 years of age — the group which Nadeem and the immigration officers represent.Pakistani scholar Mooed Yusuf, who did an analysis of youth surveys in 2011, found that they opined that it was inflation and unemployment that topped the list of the single-most important issue facing Pakistan. Terrorism came in a distant third. Polls in India have come up with similar results, where the young, which constitute a majority of the population, talking of rising prices and job availability as their biggest concerns.
Since both countries have sizeable domestic markets and an exploding middle-class, it makes sense for them to ensure that trade among themselves and in the region expands considerably. Consumers would get cheaper goods and the respective domestic industries would grow, providing more jobs, thereby becoming a win-win for both countries by tackling the two most important issues: prices and jobs.Nawaz Sharif himself voiced such an opinion in a recent interview when he said. “The money wasted in defence should have gone into social sectors. It should have gone into education; it should have gone into health care. And I hope that both countries realise the mistakes that we have made. I think the main objective of making peace with each other is to get rid of all that.”

Mansha also pointed out, “Please try to remember that every time trade is opened up between countries, it is the smaller country that benefits — in Mexico, Canada and Europe we have seen the same thing, as with India and China. So the impression is not correct. I feel that we need to compete more in the interest of our consumers, and maybe we can get Indian partners. We could get investment from India too.”He was even willing to do business with Gujarat as he was impressed with the way Narendra Modi runs the state, saying, “I am one of the few people who advocate looking at Gujarat. Mr Modi has done a miracle with an 11 per cent annual growth rate. I would suggest we learn what they have done there. Some day maybe, if certain concessions need to be given to Pakistan, and Mr Modi is the Prime Minister, chances are he would be in a position to give more concessions because he has always been viewed as a hardliner.”Business first, disputes later.The other argument that experts in Pakistan put out is that if business ties improve with India, as does people-to-people contact, then the Kashmir issue would become blunted and diluted. Today China is one of India’s largest trading partners with trade having grown to $ 66 billion last year. India and China continue to have skirmishes and tension on the border, but are able to deal with it more maturely.The other incident that stayed in my mind was when I was asked to talk to students of Aitchison College in Lahore when I visited Pakistan in 2011. The students didn’t ask me questions about enmity between the two countries and the Kashmir dispute. Instead, most of them wanted to know how India made its economy grow in the 1990s. I had to tell him that India faced much the same situation as Pakistan faces today. There was sectarian strife, the economy had tanked and there was little expectation from a coalition government. But that gave the impetus for India to boldly go ahead with reforms, and the rest is history. In the young, Pakistan now has the constituency to launch a major economic reform process and I think there is no one better than Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif to do this.The mass protests in India over corruption and the recent rape incidents are indicative of how easily public opinion can be galvanised, as was indicated in 2008 in Pakistan when the lawyers went on strike and brought Pervez Musharraf’s regime to the brink. We saw how social media fuelled the Arab spring and how Wikileaks exposes shook the US and governments across the world.The Net-worked age

More importantly in the sub-continent, grandmother tales of Partition, doctored history in textbooks and traditional media reports on strife will recede as the main source of information for the new generation. The big change that the Internet highway has already brought to our lives is instant connectivity anytime, anywhere and anyplace. Info-tech icon Nandan Nilekani terms it “the death of distance”. It is also the lifeline of the young who connect to the world wherever they may be.The boundaries that nations so assiduously built around them are steadily and rapidly being dismantled. Each of us has multiple identities: our physical self, the ones we keep for our office and our virtual identity on the Net. When Winston Churchill talked of the “empires of the future” being “the empire of the minds”, the Internet didn’t exist. But Churchill’s words are becoming reality. It is a revolution that is happening in fast-forward and will influence the discourse and narratives on key issues that determine our life and relations between countries as a new age of enlightenment unfurls.
I: Yes, how stupid can we be? For India and Pakistan, it’s time for new beginnings and an end to old endings.

[mehroke]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WejSKbicS00
Apologies to all if this video has been posted before.
This is related to the China issue but what this gentleman says about USA and China could be relevant to India as well.

He says that America learnt early in its history that it must NOT fight its neighbours - EVER!!. That is the secret to its ability to project its power beyond its own neighbourhood.
Quote -"You must not fight your neighbours - ever, no matter what at 22:38"

Could this be the line of reasoning guiding our rulers? We must not fight our neighbours ever - No matter what the provocation.

If this interview has substance worth discussing on this forum, then I would like to hear more views on it. If the mods think that it does not belong here - then please move it to the right thread.

Thanking the Guru's in anticipation of GYAN.

[Lalmohan]

the USA did fight both its neighbours and then Spain - if you include Cuba as an almost neighbour (and the philippines) - and then when it became massively powerful decided not to bother fighting canada and mexico anymore

incidentally, was watching a canadian detective series set at the turn of the century which had a plot line involving espionage around an early flying machine - where the villianous spy agency was the americans and the flying machine (built in canada) was called "the arrow" - which may be amusing to folks from the mil aviation dhaga who were discussing something similar about the 1950's60's canadian arrow jet fighter

[SSridhar]

He says that America learnt early in its history that it must NOT fight its neighbours - EVER!!. That is the secret to its ability to project its power beyond its own neighbourhood.

You may take it to the Indian Foreign Policy thread.

However, it takes two to tango. In our case, India never picked up fight with Pakistan or China. What do you do when attacked ?

Even then, I would say that India fought its neighbours only as a last resort and after absorbing body blows and even at the cost of losing its territory to its enemies. This timid Indian response has only gotten worse year after year since Independence. So, I do not understand what you are saying here ? That India should be timider & softer than what it already is ?

[mehroke]

He says that America learnt early in its history that it must NOT fight its neighbours - EVER!!. That is the secret to its ability to project its power beyond its own neighbourhood.

You may take it to the Indian Foreign Policy thread.

However, it takes two to tango. In our case, India never picked up fight with Pakistan or China. What do you do when attacked ?

Even then, I would say that India fought its neighbours only as a last resort and after absorbing body blows and even at the cost of losing its territory to its enemies. This timid Indian response has only gotten worse year after year since Independence. So, I do not understand what you are saying here ? That India should be timider & softer than what it already is ?

With Due respect. I am not qualified to offer a foreign policy or defence policy response. I am seeking viewpoints on this.
We are being cornered and pummelled. A pusillanimous response by the people in power does not do much for morale either. Hence I wonder if there is greater strategy behind this response by our government.

There are conspiracy theories around that suggest that the top policy makers might have their family jewels in some foreign powers firm grasp. But maybe there is a slim possibility that the weak kneed response is somehow a part of a grand strategy that has not been revealed to us mango Indians.

I invite the forum members to comment.