Eastern Europe/Ukraine

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Philip
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Philip » 04 Mar 2014 19:39

Absolutely! No Indian leader went in recent times to Arunachal Pradesh and told the Chinese to F..K off! Even a certain pseudo-Assamese PM kept his gob shut as tight as his sphincter! Salman-the Kursed said that the 18km Chinese intrusions were "acne"!

Putin has puled off a masterstroke,a de-facto acquisition of the Crimea without firing a shot! At one stroke he has also called into question the legitimacy of the Kiev fascists ,pretenders to the leadership of the country,who now stand exposed as ranting and raving puppets for the extremist Western Cold War warriors.
Ukraine is on the brink of bankruptcy and Putin will shortly pull the rug from under the feet of the pretenders.How they are going to obtain and pay for their energy supplies in the future-apart from repaying their debts in billions to Russia,is anyone's guess. A $35B bailout of the Ukrainian economy will affect the eco fortunes of other EU states who are also in desperate need of eco assistance from the EU.

Having achieved his first objective,the first part of his masterplan for the Ukraine,which is to see that the former Warsaw pact state does not turn into anti-Russian platforms for NATO,using Crimea as a spearhead into the Balck Sea as well as a buffer,part two will see the gradual annexation of the eastern part of the country in similar fashion.Though Russia may not want a merger of these regions,it certainly wants pro-Russian entities in charge.How long the puppet show in Kiev will continue,depends upon the US/West's largesse.Now watch how Russia will speed up the sale of sophisticated arms to Iran,Syria and other close friends.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Austin » 04 Mar 2014 19:41

This might not go will with Western Mainstream Media :wink:

Putin suggests Western states criticizing Russia assess legitimacy of their own moves
Far from all moves of Western countries are legitimate, Russian President Vladimir Putin responded to the Western criticism of Russia. "We are often accused of taking illegitimate actions. And when I ask if they think [their criticisms] are totally legitimate, they say yes. They have to be reminded about the US actions in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya," Putin told reporters on Tuesday. :lol:

Western troops acted in those countries "either without any authorization from the UN Security Council or distorted the meaning of its resolutions," he noted.

The UN Security Council resolution allowed only for a ban on flights of government aircraft in Libya, and "everything ended up with bombardments and the engagement of special-purpose units in ground operations," Putin said.

"Our partners, especially in the United States, have always been formulating their geopolitical and state interests coherently and clearly, pursuing these interests in a steadfast manner, and adjusting the rest of the world to their [interests] according to the famous wording "those who are not with us are against us"," Putin said.

"Those who refuse to adjust are cowed straightaway. And, in the end, they are usually downtrodden," he said.

"We proceed from a different premise. We proceed from [the premise of] acting in a legitimate way. I have always urged the observation of international legal norms," Putin said.

As to consultations about Ukraine with the Western leaders, he said, "Our conversations are of a confidential nature, and some of them are even conducted over secure lines. So, I think I have no right to disclose what we have discussed with our partners and how," he said.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Theo_Fidel » 04 Mar 2014 19:53

As I thought it was always about Crimea. Not even sure why the hell it is in Ukraine.
Now that Russia has Crimea some sort of re-drawing of borders will probably done to a more ‘stable’ situation.
When push comes to shove Russian tanks do the talking.

BTW always thought the Tartars were hard core Russian. When did they turn West ward.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Lalmohan » 04 Mar 2014 20:19

its in the ukraine because stalin gave it to the ukraine
he used to move a lot of people around the USSR, essentially to maintain a balance to prevent ethnic seccesionism

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Austin » 04 Mar 2014 20:27

Russia should not cede under threat of sanctions, MPs say
MOSCOW, March 04. /ITAR-TASS/. Russia should not make concessions in the Ukrainian crisis under the threat of sanctions from the US and Europe, the first deputy head of the State Duma committee for international affairs, Leonid Kalashnikov, told Itar-Tass on Tuesday.

“If we make major concessions under pressure, this will be taken negatively not only in the country, but also in the world. The damage from that will be catastrophic,” he said. The parliamentarian said Russia had not attacked anyone and was not going to wage a war against Ukraine. He said “nothing would change in particular” even if relations between Russia and the US sharply deteriorated. “There is nothing fatal about it,” he said.

“Russia has always been self-reliant, even after WWII. This is the way Russia is — we are a self-sufficient state,” he added. “Of course, America dominates in the world. But the principles are not to be bargained, all the more the lives of fellow Russians,” Kalashnikov said.

The head of the Duma committee for culture, Stanislav Govorukhin, said for his part that “everything in the world is intertwined,” explaining that Russia “has less possibilities, but has counter measures, and all who are brandishing their arms and these sanctions must understand this clearly”.

“We are used to sanctions,” Govorukhin said. “Cuba, for example, has been under sanctions for 55 years, and is still Cuba. They lived in poverty, starved, but survived. Belarus has been seeing different kind of sanctions for 25 years, so what — they live better than we do, by the way. So we will also withstand,” he summed up.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Austin » 04 Mar 2014 20:30

Sanction was always there , I mean during the entire tenure of Soviet Union they were under Western Sanctions from US and still they developed what they could , same goes for China they are sill under Arms Sanction from West.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Lalmohan » 04 Mar 2014 20:36

i dont think putin is all that bothered, all they have to do is shut off the gas to central western europe and everybody will fall in line

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby UlanBatori » 04 Mar 2014 21:02

Ah... this may explain uneven's survival in academia. Mistaken identity keeping someone off the welfare rolls. Thanks

PHEW!! I was getting my drinking water cans ready to head to the Fallout Shelter. Yes, there are indeed to SCs in the same bijnej: One to give wrong advice on Oirope and another to give catastrophic advice on "South Asia". That's advice on how to turn a minor problem into a catastrophe.

Wonder why Gold funds are not spiking, given all the talk of dollar plunging.

Correction Added: They are.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 04 Mar 2014 21:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Austin » 04 Mar 2014 21:04

Lalmohan wrote:i dont think putin is all that bothered, all they have to do is shut off the gas to central western europe and everybody will fall in line


They never stopped Gas supplies to Europe even during Cold War .......Stopping Gas might be great temporary bravado but it makes bad business decision....... you dont want to make them cry when they feed you.

Once South Stream goes online , Dependencies on Ukraine will practically cease to exist.

Nord Stream has gave Germans a source independent of Ukraine who production capicity can be doubled if required on same pipe.
Last edited by Austin on 04 Mar 2014 21:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby darshhan » 04 Mar 2014 21:05

Austin wrote:This might not go will with Western Mainstream Media :wink:

Putin suggests Western states criticizing Russia assess legitimacy of their own moves
Far from all moves of Western countries are legitimate, Russian President Vladimir Putin responded to the Western criticism of Russia. "We are often accused of taking illegitimate actions. And when I ask if they think [their criticisms] are totally legitimate, they say yes. They have to be reminded about the US actions in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya," Putin told reporters on Tuesday. :lol:

Western troops acted in those countries "either without any authorization from the UN Security Council or distorted the meaning of its resolutions," he noted.

The UN Security Council resolution allowed only for a ban on flights of government aircraft in Libya, and "everything ended up with bombardments and the engagement of special-purpose units in ground operations," Putin said.

"Our partners, especially in the United States, have always been formulating their geopolitical and state interests coherently and clearly, pursuing these interests in a steadfast manner, and adjusting the rest of the world to their [interests] according to the famous wording "those who are not with us are against us"," Putin said.

"Those who refuse to adjust are cowed straightaway. And, in the end, they are usually downtrodden," he said.

"We proceed from a different premise. We proceed from [the premise of] acting in a legitimate way. I have always urged the observation of international legal norms," Putin said.

As to consultations about Ukraine with the Western leaders, he said, "Our conversations are of a confidential nature, and some of them are even conducted over secure lines. So, I think I have no right to disclose what we have discussed with our partners and how," he said.



Putin is well aware of the hypocrisy of Anglo World and has the guts to confront it. Today the greatest danger to world comes not from Al qaeda or communists. It is the US led Anglo world which is single most destructive, dangerous and destabilizing entity world has ever seen. For the world to prosper and enjoy freedom, the power of this entity has to be permanently smashed.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby UlanBatori » 04 Mar 2014 21:11

Our conversations are of a confidential nature, and some of them are even conducted over secure lines

This has to take the cake for both sarcasm and reminding some ppl of the *uck EU declaration.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby anupmisra » 04 Mar 2014 21:21

Theo_Fidel wrote:BTW always thought the Tartars were hard core Russian. When did they turn West ward.


Tatars (although some call them Tartars like the sauce) are not and were never pro-west or ethnically Russians. They are Turkish blood. Their allegiance is towards mecca. They converted wholesale to the religion of piece within a short span. A tiny minority calls Ukraine its temporary home after USSR imploded. Even when the nationalists (Russians and Ukrainians) were chanting their countries' names in public squares, Tatars were, well, screaming "halla to ukbar". Shows how much can either side trust them. Ask any Cossack.

My fear is that the Tatars will create a religious motive behind this civil war. Watch the pseudo liberals in CNN and BBC and other PC Europeans fall in line behind these moves and lap it up, and watch unjem chaudhary call for a holy jihad to liberate his brethren in Tataristan. After four years of stalemate in Syria, this is the next potential destination for the unwashed to show up and keep themselves busy with the local women.

More reasons for America and India (Yes, together) to keep their powder dry. Europe is lost. Crimea may be the spark that takes the world to the brink of another WW. Well, not until the French surrender, that is.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby darshhan » 04 Mar 2014 21:29

anupmisra wrote:More reasons for America and India (Yes, together)


Are you kidding? Forget Pakistan or China. It is America which is the foremost enemy of India. I doubt if we can have any deep relationship. As a matter of fact most Indians would enjoy if America gets screwed and vice versa. Just look at how Americans are destabilizing India and undermining Indian civilization on a continuous basis.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby JE Menon » 04 Mar 2014 21:38

^^Few polls suggest the above ... and about being foremost enemy, etc... bit much. We have an issue with them, where they are not sensitive to our stance on certain things. This sensitization will happen. We will trade. If and when necessary for both we will fight side by side. Otherwise, we will stand separately. It is unlikely that we will get into a shooting war against each other. They are more powerful than us. They'll therefore screw us even if they don't have to. We will not screw them unless we have to. For now. This balance will gradually shift towards equilibrium and then the other way, if we are not destroyed as a country in the meantime, and if they are not as well. We have much money to gain from each other, and through each other.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby K Mehta » 04 Mar 2014 21:43

Can any of the gurus tell how supporting ukraine is going to affect the dole handed out to al bak? saudi weapons for syria may contribute to compensate but some amount of money is gonna be diverted from munnas , in my opinion.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby KLNMurthy » 04 Mar 2014 22:11

darshhan wrote:
anupmisra wrote:More reasons for America and India (Yes, together)


Are you kidding? Forget Pakistan or China. It is America which is the foremost enemy of India. I doubt if we can have any deep relationship. As a matter of fact most Indians would enjoy if America gets screwed and vice versa. Just look at how Americans are destabilizing India and undermining Indian civilization on a continuous basis.

OT but let's keep historical and moral perspective. Shared Indian and US values are now obscured under cloud of mediocrity and white superiority complex that covers both nations.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby ramana » 04 Mar 2014 22:27

Singha wrote:UK will ban export of scotch to russia. thats the best it can do. or maybe ban russian oligarchs from spending millions of $$ on the london economy.



Thats a double whammy as it keeps the Scots, who are clamoring for independence in check at same time.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby member_28352 » 04 Mar 2014 22:36

All said and done the US is a more powerful country than India is today. That will change in the future. Therefore, as someone has said earlier too, India should keep its powder dry. There's still much to be gained from US. At the same time we shouldn't let them run roughshod over us. Let hubris be the sole preserve of the dolts at the US SD. India's interests will be well served if Eastern Ukraine were to secede and the Kharkiv Tank Plant stopped supplying engines to the Bakis. On that note did anyone notice the double standards wrt to the T series tanks. Now that Ukraine has T-80s/T-84s, the western media refers to them as "excellent", "fine" and "world class". When Russians wield them they become "tincans". The truth, as always, is perhaps in the middle.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby abhik » 04 Mar 2014 22:37

Singha wrote:UK will ban export of scotch to russia. thats the best it can do. or maybe ban russian oligarchs from spending millions of $$ on the london economy.

Considering that Scotland may secede in the near future even this last stick does not have much credibility. Tough times for the Brits. :P

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby ramana » 04 Mar 2014 22:39

Philip, I still think its neo-con move to show Ombaba in poor light and undo his behind the scenes deals with Russia that misfired. Look at the shrill harridans on CNN advocating force and tough guy posture.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Theo_Fidel » 04 Mar 2014 22:42

anupmisra wrote:Tatars (although some call them Tartars like the sauce)

:oops:

Thanks for the rest anup. Just curious why the y being pushed so aggressively in media.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Rony » 04 Mar 2014 22:51

Austin wrote:Interview with Stephen Cohen on Ukraine Crises

http://youtu.be/1z6_5Vd8R5M?t=2m6s


Hear, Hear

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Suraj » 04 Mar 2014 23:03

ramana wrote:
Singha wrote:UK will ban export of scotch to russia. thats the best it can do. or maybe ban russian oligarchs from spending millions of $$ on the london economy.

Thats a double whammy as it keeps the Scots, who are clamoring for independence in check at same time.

Perhaps we can make a deal with Russia for technology transfer and licensing of IMFL production technology so they can make their own local RMFL Scotch :)

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby nachiket » 04 Mar 2014 23:14

Lalmohan wrote:its in the ukraine because stalin gave it to the ukraine
he used to move a lot of people around the USSR, essentially to maintain a balance to prevent ethnic seccesionism

Correction, Khrushchev gave it to the Ukraine, not Stalin.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Rony » 04 Mar 2014 23:21

Indian Embassy in Kiev advises Indians, especially students, resident in Ukraine to register online if they haven't done already.

Image

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Theo_Fidel » 04 Mar 2014 23:48

nachiket wrote:Correction, Khrushchev gave it to the Ukraine, not Stalin.


Anyone know why, other than the obvious stuff.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby UlanBatori » 04 Mar 2014 23:51

Correction, Khrushchev gave it to the Ukraine, not Stalin.

In exchange for the vast numbers of Ukrainians for who Stalin provided guest accommodations in Russia. Northeast Russia, 2 b precise.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 05 Mar 2014 00:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Suraj » 04 Mar 2014 23:55

Theo_Fidel wrote:
nachiket wrote:Correction, Khrushchev gave it to the Ukraine, not Stalin.

Anyone know why, other than the obvious stuff.

Khrushchev followed a de-Stalinization approach trying to undo all the stuff his predecessor did, which was quite grisly. It was probably viewed as a CBM at the time, and they didn't expect the USSR to fall apart a little over 3 decades later.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby ramana » 05 Mar 2014 00:10

Suraj wrote:
ramana wrote:{quote="Singha"}UK will ban export of scotch to russia. thats the best it can do. or maybe ban russian oligarchs from spending millions of $$ on the london economy.{/quote}
Thats a double whammy as it keeps the Scots, who are clamoring for independence in check at same time.

Perhaps we can make a deal with Russia for technology transfer and licensing of IMFL production technology so they can make their own local RMFL Scotch :)



India is the worlds largest whisky market per the Scots.

And Amrut made in India is the world's third best single malt whiskey at this time. Its beating Scotch black and blue in US stores. Waiting list of two weeks at Bev Mo type stores.

In four more years it will beat the best single malt because of the climate.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Theo_Fidel » 05 Mar 2014 00:14

Interesting.

But why was Ukraine asking for Crimea. Seems an odd choice. Kiev does not seem to have any direct links to Crimea. The Russians are crazy about it. So why give it away. Khrushchev seems like an odd bird.

And why not take it back when the break up process was going on.

Even now the Ukraine folks don’t seem to be over enthu about getting it back. One feels they won’t complain too loudly if Russia took it back.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby UlanBatori » 05 Mar 2014 00:17

Precisely to have a good Russian presence in a region that is otherwise not too fond of being called Russians. Otherwise they might have looked to other SSRs/nations for access to blue water.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Raja » 05 Mar 2014 00:20

darshhan wrote:
anupmisra wrote:More reasons for America and India (Yes, together)


Are you kidding? Forget Pakistan or China. It is America which is the foremost enemy of India. I doubt if we can have any deep relationship. As a matter of fact most Indians would enjoy if America gets screwed and vice versa. Just look at how Americans are destabilizing India and undermining Indian civilization on a continuous basis.


USA and India, despite several differences, are lot closer to each other than Soviet Union/Russia and India ever were or will be. I have lived in both countries and know the reality. You are simply delusional.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby ramana » 05 Mar 2014 00:20

Theo,

Ukraine agreed to give up nukes (which were not theirs) in return form gaurantees that Russia won't retake Crimea. Yeltsin agreed in 1994 to
- please US which was the one interested in Ukraine giving up the nukes before the NPT was ratified in perpetuity in 1995, otherwise it would have created new nuke state than the so called P-5!
- It was also in Russain interest to be sole Eastern European power with nukes.

Now US is supporting the permanent accession of Crimea to Ukraine.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby SRoy » 05 Mar 2014 00:26

Raja wrote:
darshhan wrote:Are you kidding? Forget Pakistan or China. It is America which is the foremost enemy of India. I doubt if we can have any deep relationship. As a matter of fact most Indians would enjoy if America gets screwed and vice versa. Just look at how Americans are destabilizing India and undermining Indian civilization on a continuous basis.


USA and India, despite several differences, are lot closer to each other than Soviet Union/Russia and India ever were or will be. I have lived in both countries and know the reality. You are simply delusional.

If closeness were yardstick for benevolence...well...Pakis and BDs are closest to us. :D

You are the one delusional here.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Singha » 05 Mar 2014 00:59

Kruschev was Ukrainian born ..in kursk.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Suraj » 05 Mar 2014 01:13

The deal in question is the Budapest Memorandum
The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances is an international treaty signed on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories in connection to Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The Memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear-powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. China and France later gave individual statements of assurance as well.

The deal included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine as well as those of Belarus and Kazakhstan. As a result Ukraine gave up the world's third largest nuclear weapons stockpile between 1994 and 1996.

The Americans claim Russia is in violation of this, while Russia denies it, claiming Crimea has special status. Further, there's some talk that the assurances provided by the nuclear powers are non-binding, which means Ukraine gave up a lot for nothing.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby TSJones » 05 Mar 2014 01:21

Suraj wrote:The deal in question is the Budapest Memorandum
The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances is an international treaty signed on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories in connection to Ukraine's accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The Memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear-powers, the Russian Federation, the United States of America, and the United Kingdom. China and France later gave individual statements of assurance as well.

The deal included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine as well as those of Belarus and Kazakhstan. As a result Ukraine gave up the world's third largest nuclear weapons stockpile between 1994 and 1996.

The Americans claim Russia is in violation of this, while Russia denies it, claiming Crimea has special status. Further, there's some talk that the assurances provided by the nuclear powers are non-binding, which means Ukraine gave up a lot for nothing.


One thing is for sure, the US will never sign another agreement with Russia concerning non agression on another country. You can cancel that nonsense in the future. It is highly doubtful that the US congress will ever ratify *anything* with Russia in the future. The US president will be on his own in that regard.
Last edited by TSJones on 05 Mar 2014 01:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby MurthyB » 05 Mar 2014 01:22

anupmisra wrote: Well, not until the French surrender, that is.

Too late.

France Surrenders to Russia

The alleged justification for the surrender is that the Russian military was becoming “too close for comfort” for the French military, despite the fact that France is well outside the former Soviet ‘Eastern Bloc’ and likely will not be a target whatsoever. One top French General was quoted as saying, “Rather than suffer an embarrassing hypothetical defeat on a possible battlefield, we pre-empted the unlikely conflict with surrender – it was the only logical solution to the potential problem.”

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Suraj » 05 Mar 2014 01:26

TSJones wrote:One thing is for sure, the US will never sign another agreement with Russia concerning non agression on another country. You can cancel that nonsense in the future. It is highly doubtful that the US congress will ever ratify anthing with Russia in the future. The US president will be on his own in that regard.

Moralizing positions are completely out of place here. The US reneged its agreement on the ABM treaty when it suited it.

The typical "bad bad Russkies! So untrustworthy! They never follow agreements!" spiel is just a conveniently one-sided portrayal of overall dynamics.

In any case, by interfereing with Yanukovich, the US and UK are both in violation of the Budapest Agreement too, in spirit.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Gerard » 05 Mar 2014 02:33

Russia reports ballistic missile test amid Crimea tension
A Topol RS-12M missile was launched from Russia's Kapustin Yar test range near the Caspian Sea to the Sary Shagan range in Kazakhstan


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