Eastern Europe/Ukraine

vic · Post by **vic** » 06 Mar 2014 21:24

ramana wrote:UB you do have a way of painting with words.

Seriously need to blog this to get more traction.

vic, Another way of saying that is US elite factions want a revival of the Cold War to jump start the moribund economy. There are reams of tomes written about how WWII revived the US econmy after the Great Depression. BO's small steps of punishing India for H1B and phrama wont cut the mustard.

If we are talking about conspiracy theories then it is better to go with simple ones like Obama was/is funded by super rich elite connected to crude oil and wall street and he is doing their bidding. You must know the astounding rise of Obama from nowhere and his ability to collect election funds way above Clintons. US economy will not revive till crude oil falls below USD 30 and that is not going to happen till Obama is around.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 Mar 2014 22:03

UlanBatori,
As I understand, Mr. BO is keen to do his "pivot to Asia". He's been negotiating a new trade deal with Asia-Pac countries, and desperately wants "fast-track" authority to push the deal through (which Congress is not going to give him). This Ukraine thing can only be a big distraction.

I'm guessing just like Pakistan has had a "deep state" for a long time, the US now has one. The apparatus that was stood up after 2001 9/11 has now achieved a level of autonomy and is beyond control of the US President. Ukraine may be its first autonomous adventure.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 06 Mar 2014 22:12

Some potential US resources:

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/90f87eb0357a

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/86604672f2a6

Back to the future, it would appear.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Mar 2014 22:21

Jonathan Spyer about Obama's comment on "Wrong Side of History"

http://www.meforum.org/3784/obama-history

Its ironical that liberal Western Europe has seized Hegel's dialectic while the true inheritors were the Nazis!!!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Mar 2014 22:42

TSJones wrote:Some potential US resources:

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/90f87eb0357a

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/86604672f2a6

Back to the future, it would appear.

Interesting and Nice Picture .......IIRC during Georgia war USN deployed 2 Battle Ships on Black Sea though it was more of flag showing.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Mar 2014 22:43

EU halts Russia visa talks, threatens wide economic sanctions

The European Union has decided to suspend talks with Russia on a proposal for a looser visa regime and on a planned new basic agreement with Russia, European Union Council President Herman Van Rompuy told a news conference in Brussels on Thursday.

Van Rompuy also said the EU supports decisions by individual countries to suspend preparations for a planned G8 summit in Sochi in June.

Moreover, the EU considers Crimea's planned referendum on March 16 on the status of the Ukrainian region unconstitutional, he said.

He also said the EU resolutely condemned what he called Russia's unprovoked violation of the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Mar 2014 22:45

Questions on Ukraine the West chooses not to answer

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-west-questio ... wered-994/

Ukrainian and Western refusal to answer Moscow’s hard questions explains Russia’s tough stance on the crisis in Kiev.

Ignoring Russian concerns is a Western habit adopted after the Soviet Union’s collapse; when NATO bombed Yugoslavia; during the recognition of Kosovo as an independent state, and the US push to install an anti-missile shield over Europe that can target Russia.

It also happened recently when Western diplomats flocked to Ukraine to smile and wave and lobby their interests in a future Ukrainian government, while accusing Russia of meddling in Ukrainian affairs.

But it seems that in Ukraine lies Russia’s red line and Moscow no longer takes “don’t know, don’t care” for an answer.

Here’s the questions.
1. Why did the opposition oust Yanukovich after he conceded to their demands?

On February 21, Yanukovich and the three Ukrainian parliamentary faction leaders signed a reconciliation deal co-signed by Foreign Ministers of France, Germany and Poland. A gesture that their countries would serve as agreement guarantors.

The agreement provides a de-escalation roadmap of constitutional reform, a national unity government, early presidential election and disbandment of Maidan fighter groups.

Hours after it was signed, Right Sector radicals, key to the violence unleashed in Kiev which left a hundred people dead, gave Yanukovich an ultimatum: resign or face a siege of his residence.

Against Moscow’s advice, Yanukovich fled.

Vladimir Putin’s comments illuminate the Russian position here: "He [Yanukovich] had in fact given up his power already, and as I believe, as I told him, he had no chance of being re-elected.. What was the purpose of all those illegal, unconstitutional actions, why did they have to create this chaos in the country? Armed and masked militants are still roaming the streets of Kiev. This is a question to which there is no answer."

Russia says the February 21 agreement must be implemented. The opposition signed it yet allows an uncontrolled militia of violent armed radicals send fear and loathing across a large swath of Ukraine.

The US says the agreement no longer matters – because Yanukovich fled. The EU signatories don’t seem to be bothered about it either.

2. Why is the coup-appointed govt replacing oligarchs linked to Yanukovich with... oligarchs?

Popular resentment of Yanukovich blossomed over corruption. Protesters pointed to power abuse, theft and allowing linked-oligarchs raid businesses of other clans. Evidence came readily after they fled - photos of their homes’ sumptuous interiors.

But the new self-appointed govt is replacing Yanukovich’s oligarchs with their own. Kiev just appointed billionaires as governors of Donetsk and Dnepropetrovsk respectively, a move that also drew Putin’s ire: "Mr. Kolomoisky was appointed governor of Dnepropetrovsk. This is a unique crook. He even managed to cheat our oligarch Roman Abramovich two or three years ago. Scammed him.."

Both hold major assets in their respective regions and thousands depend on them for work. Both appointments are meant to stabilize a volatile society and ensure loyalty to the capital but critics say Kiev is reinventing fiefdoms to nobility in exchange for servitude. For Putin, who famously excluded oligarchs from politics, the move is an anathema.
3. Why did the post-coup parliament strip Russian language of its regional status?

A bill repealing a law on regional languages was among dozens rubber-stamped by a chaotic Ukrainian parliament in the first post-coup days. It allowed the Ukrainian nationalist and anti-Russian Svoboda (Freedom) Party put a feather in its cap. Yet it sent a ripple of hostility south and east from Kiev, where Russian-speakers are a large minority or even majority.
Kiev pledged to restore the status of Russian but now says the acting Ukrainian president won’t sign such a bill into law.
4. Why did Kiev attack the Constitutional Court?

Several Constitutional Court judges were accused of violating their oath and abruptly fired amid coup govt orders they be prosecuted. The judges branded this as an attack on the principle of separation of powers. Putin called it "monkey business".

As Yanukovich was not procedurally impeached but through a simple show of hands the legality of his impeachment is open to challenges taken by several Ukrainian regions and, diplomatically, by Russia. The Ukrainian Constitutional Court is the proper authority to rule on the issue yet the new Kiev admin is mooting totally disbanding it and giving its functions to the Supreme Court.

5. Why would the West support the coup in Ukraine?

From the Russian perspective, the West fueled the fires of protest and ensured the Ukrainian government was toppled. Now it is attempting to legitimize its factious replacement. What Russia calls an unconstitutional coup, the West is branding a public revolution. It is possible that it is both.

Moscow does not challenge the reality. It doesn’t seek a Yanukovich return to power. It would work with the people who ousted him, as it did with the Yushchenko presidency. But Moscow demands the Kiev coup govt carries a national mandate to govern, in both east and west . Without it, any government is unsustainable.

Putin’s position is that it now maybe too late, despite his repeated warnings Ukraine would polarize. "Did our partners in the West and those who call themselves the government in Kiev now not foresee that events would take this turn? I said to them over and over: Why are you whipping the country into a frenzy like this?"

A stable Ukraine is essential for Russia for many reasons, humanitarian being just few of them. Of course Russia wants ethnic Russians in Ukraine to be safe from potential violence and persecution. But there are also more pragmatic considerations as well.

There’s the Black Sea Fleet, strong economic interdependence and there is gas. Ukraine transits Russian natural gas to Europe and is thus essential to the Russian and European economies. Yet now a desperate Kiev mulls privatizing its gas pipelines to fill its empty coffers, while Moscow’s questions remain unheard.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Mar 2014 23:06

Behaedings on open streets of people who disagree with neo-nazi facist/Maidan

decapicated person at 03:44 starts it

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Mar 2014 23:55

President Barack Obama said on Thursday that a proposed referendum in Crimea to join Russia would violate international law and said US sanctions were aimed at punishing Moscow for its intervention in Ukraine.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2014 00:07

Neo-Nazi threat in new Ukraine: NEWSNIGHT

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 07 Mar 2014 04:00

India bats for Russia interests

...
National security adviser Shivshankar Menon has said India wants the confrontation between the West and Moscow over Ukraine resolved peacefully. But he added that it also hoped that the interests of Russia and other stakeholders were taken into account.

“We hope that whatever internal issues there are within Ukraine are settled peacefully, and the broader issues of reconciling various interests involved, and there are legitimate Russian and other interests involved…. We hope those are discussed, negotiated and that there is a satisfactory resolution to them,” Menon said today.

Menon’s reference to Russia’s “legitimate interests” sparked a sharp diplomatic response from Kiev.

“We are not sure how Russia can be seen having legitimate interests in the territory of another country,” Roman Pyrih, the media secretary at the Ukrainian embassy in New Delhi, said. “In our view, and in the view of much of the international community, this is a direct act of aggression and we cannot accept any justification for it.”
...
...
But Menon’s statement and New Delhi’s reluctance to criticise Putin stem also from a deeper concern.

India, officials said, is convinced that the West’s tacit support for a series of attempted coups against democratically elected governments — in Egypt, Thailand and now Ukraine — has only weakened democratic roots in these countries.

“We are watching what is happening in Ukraine with some concern,” Menon said.
...
...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Mar 2014 06:42

I didnt realize there were external players in the thailand mess (going on for 2 yrs now) but plausible...

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 07 Mar 2014 07:51

chanakyaa · Post by **chanakyaa** » 07 Mar 2014 07:52

Western Responses to the Ukraine Crisis: Policy Options

http://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/defau ... olicy1.pdf

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2014 09:02

Everyone is lying about Ukraine - Truthloader

vic · Post by **vic** » 07 Mar 2014 09:56

It seems that now we have NON STATE actors err murderers, thugs, goons, barbarians in USA & EU also who topple democratically elected Govts.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2014 10:38

Henry A. Kissinger : How the Ukraine crisis ends

Leaders of all sides should return to examining outcomes, not compete in posturing. Here is my notion of an outcome compatible with the values and security interests of all sides:

1. Ukraine should have the right to choose freely its economic and political associations, including with Europe.

2. Ukraine should not join NATO, a position I took seven years ago, when it last came up.

3. Ukraine should be free to create any government compatible with the expressed will of its people. Wise Ukrainian leaders would then opt for a policy of reconciliation between the various parts of their country. Internationally, they should pursue a posture comparable to that of Finland. That nation leaves no doubt about its fierce independence and cooperates with the West in most fields but carefully avoids institutional hostility toward Russia.

4. It is incompatible with the rules of the existing world order for Russia to annex Crimea. But it should be possible to put Crimea’s relationship to Ukraine on a less fraught basis. To that end, Russia would recognize Ukraine’s sovereignty over Crimea. Ukraine should reinforce Crimea’s autonomy in elections held in the presence of international observers. The process would include removing any ambiguities about the status of the Black Sea Fleet at Sevastopol.

These are principles, not prescriptions. People familiar with the region will know that not all of them will be palatable to all parties. The test is not absolute satisfaction but balanced dissatisfaction. If some solution based on these or comparable elements is not achieved, the drift toward confrontation will accelerate. The time for that will come soon enough.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2014 10:42

EU uses double standards in interpreting Ukraine's Constitution - Russian envoy

The European Union uses double standards in interpreting the Ukrainian Constitution, Russia’s EU envoy Vladimir Chizhov told Russian journalists in Brussels after Thursday’s early EU summit devoted to the Ukrainian crisis.

It looks rather strange the European Union has assumed the right to interpret the Ukrainian Constitution at its own discretion to declare that Crimea’s forthcoming referendum contradicts it and will be illegitimate, Chizhov said.

“Generally speaking I would advise everybody to be very careful as far as referendums are concerned. After all, they are a direct expression of the people’s will. In all other respects it remains to be seen. The referendum is not very far away, just ten days from now. We shall take a look at the results first.”

“If the European Union were genuinely concerned over whether the current events agree with the Ukrainian constitution, then it would have easily seen that in both constitutions of Ukraine, be it the 2010 edition or the earlier, 2004 version, that of the presidential republic or the mixed parliamentary-presidential type of the republic, just as the constitutions of a majority of other states there exists a certain procedure of ousting the head of state from power,” Chizhov said.

He recalled the three possible options - the president’s death, resignation or impeachment.

“As far as Yanukovich is concerned, none of the above options apply. To say the current authorities in Kiev are legitimate will be possible only if one turns a blind eye on the hard facts,” Chizhov said.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2014 10:45

Fareed Zakaria is now Toning down his rhetoric , talks of Russian interest too

Zakaria: Sanctions against Russia are just symbolic

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Mar 2014 13:10

Austin wrote:Neo-Nazi threat in new Ukraine: NEWSNIGHT

I guess the troupe of Bane's followers in Batman got their style cues from these lads.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2014 13:56

I wonder what the Europeans dont see the rise of Nazism in Ukraine when along with Russia they were the major victims of it ....... Guess the goal to "Let's Teach Russia A Lesson" is a more attractive proposition.

From what I have seen US is the only country in the World that can get away doing any thing from Open Lies to Aggression ..... most of times Phoney Claims or National Security Interest ..Amazing Powerful Country

Jarred by US 'top ten lies' list, Russia fires back

Russia: Russia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs was not amused by the unorthodox statement from the State Department under the title "President Putin's Fiction: 10 False Claims About Ukraine," which purported to rebut a series of assertions by Vladimir Putin in the eye-catching format of a top-10 list.

The Foreign Ministry's own statements have an ornate formal tone, garnished with thick irony and rhetorical flourishes, and this casual treatment of the Russian president's words in the State Department list, released Wednesday, must have been jarring.

A ministry spokesman, Alexander K. Lukashevich, provided an angry five-paragraph response on Thursday afternoon, calling the list "shocking, not as much for its primitive distortion of reality as its cynicism and overt 'double standards.'"

"The State Department is trying to play on a shamelessly one-sided interpretation of events, as if there was not plentiful evidence of atrocities committed by radical nationalists, including the massacre of inconvenient people captured on video cameras, or the murder by provocateur snipers," the statement said, adding that "we will not stoop to debate with low-grade propaganda."

It went on to catalogue nine past interventions by the United States and NATO, stretching from the 1958 invasion of Lebanon to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, making the case that Washington "doesn't and can't have the moral right to lecture us about compliance of international norms."

Detailed and grisly descriptions of past U.S. interventions, nearly every one deeply unpopular with Soviet and Russian people, have become a dominant theme in Russian reporting on Ukraine and its Russian-populated Crimean Peninsula.

"Nevertheless, they dare to reproach Russia for 'armed aggression' when she stands up for her countrymen, who constitute the majority of the Crimean people, so as to prevent ultranationalist forces from arranging another bloody 'Maidan,'" the statement continued, referring to the mayhem last month in Independence Square, or Maidan, in Kiev, the Ukrainian capital.

The statement concluded with observations on the United States that could have easily come from a psychoanalyst - not unlike any number of recent Western commentaries on Putin.

"They cannot get over it, and come to terms with the fact that they cannot always dictate their will and act in their customary role of 'infallible judge,' which is followed by - the last word," it said. "Their nerves are giving out, but that is no reason to thrust guilt on the innocent."

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 07 Mar 2014 14:04

deleted. not relevant

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 07 Mar 2014 14:17

So one parliament removes a democratically elected president overnight and that is exercise of people's will while another parliament decides to merge with Russia and that is unconstitutional.

The prize in Ukraine is Syria. This is Syrian endgame being played in Ukraine. The West thought Putin will wait till the winter olympics were over, they thought wrong.
If US is this serious about Syria then they may do something really stupid, which may affect us all.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 07 Mar 2014 16:20

Germans Oppose Russian Economic Sanctions – Poll

BERLIN—Germans largely back Chancellor Angela Merkel’s reluctance to impose economic sanctions on Russia in response to the Ukraine crisis, according to an opinion poll.

Only 38% of those polled wanted to impose sanctions on Russia after its occupied the Ukraine peninsular of Crimea on Feb. 27. The Russian move followed the ousting of pro-Russian Ukraine President Viktor Yanukovych.

Nearly three in four Germans want to provide financial support to struggling Ukraine and 62% are in favor of increasing political pressure on Russia, the survey found, which was conducted by Infratest Dimap for public broadcaster ARD. In all 19% want to push Russia out of the group of eight leading economies, or G-8.

Philipp Missfelder, foreign policy spokesman for Ms. Merkel’s party, warned Friday on German television Phoenix that economic sanctions would have serious economic repercussions on Germany.

More than one-third of Germany’s gas and crude-oil imports come from Russia.

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 07 Mar 2014 16:37

vic wrote:I am sorry, I do not agree with the analysis that Obama is ill informed. Me thinks that Obama has been plucked out of nowhere and put in charge, so that he will serve the interest of OIL and BANKING lobbies. Ignore his words, and see his conduct. Everything USA is doing is in interest of oligarchs of Banks and Oil. Obama is a stooge of super elite interests while Republicans are at present just a bunch of red necks.

Or is BO hence in turn all non whites are going to be held responsible for the loss of US global dominance? Some Americans claim under BO more white people are being targeted by IRS, which in turn is due to long standing targeting of Blacks by the police.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 07 Mar 2014 16:46

The man in the street-the same species who took part in the million man march against the Iraq invasion when Tony B.Liar was British PM,know in their hearts the hypocrisy of their leaders.When top Tory M politicos have been exposed as having close links with Yanukovych's oligarchs-supposedly the ones alleged to have looted Ukraine and the reason for overthrowing the elected president by unconstitutional means,using the worst scum possible,the sheer arrogance and temerity of yanqui warmongers like O;Bomber of "I have a drone" fame,chills the bones.Using thugs.mugs.bugs and a host of "contractors",hired to use street violence,killing by sniper fire,etc.,is utterly fascist.The NSA's snooping on the entire world revealed the "evility" as Dubya would've put it of the fascist empire of the 21st century-the US of A.

So for all their mischief,the US and West now impose "sanctions" upon Russia.Putin has already told them what he thinks of their "sanctions" and how he can react to them as well.Th speed with which the Crimeman MPs have voted in favour of joining Russia indicates one certain conclusion.It's "Au revoir" Ukraine",not "a bientot",if you understand the subtle difference between the two!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 73038.html

Crimea is now part of Russia; a referendum to endorse the decision would take place within 10 days; the only legitimate forces here are those of Vladimir Putin; the Ukrainian military are occupiers who must disarm and take up Russian citizenship.

The Crimean parliament voted by a vote of 78-0, with eight abstentions to bring forward a referendum for the second time and introducing, for the first time, the question to the electorate: “Are you in favour of reuniting Crimea with Russia as a subject of the Russian Federation?”

However, Crimea’s Deputy Prime Minister, Rustam Temirgaliev, maintained that the referendum was only there to “endorse” the decision which has been already made by deputies: a decree making the changes came immediately into force from the moment of its adoption, he said.

Then he laid out the possibility of military action: “This meant that the only lawful armed force on the territory of the Crimea is the Russian armed forces. Armed forces of any third country are occupiers. The Ukrainian armed forces have to choose: lay down their weapons, quit their posts, accept Russian citizenship and join the Russian military. If they do not agree, we are prepared to offer them safe passage from the territory of Crimea to their Ukrainian homeland.”

Some viewed this as seeking legal justification for military action against the Ukrainian forces. Some of their bases and warships have been under siege from the Russians for days while they defied ultimatums that failure to surrender would lead to an attack.

It is still felt unlikely that the Kremlin would want to get involved in a shooting war but there remains the possibility of strife sparked by clashes involving the “self-defence forces” of Crimean Russian supporters who now routinely confront the Ukrainian forces and are increasingly becoming armed. Sergei Aksyonov, the Crimean prime minister, announced that there are now 11,000 of the militia working with the Russian troops and the police. Some of them, it is believed, are members of Berkut, the riot police unit disbanded by the Ukrainian government following the killings of demonstrators in Kiev.

Attempts by international bodies to monitor what is happening on the ground have so far failed. A team from the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe was prevented from entering Crimea at a checkpoint manned by “self-defence forces”. This followed members of the same group driving the United Nations special envoy Robert Serry out of the city after he had visited the headquarters of the Ukrainian navy.

The Tatar community in Crimea, which is vehemently opposed to Russia, was asked by Refat Chubarov, the leader of its representative body, the Mejlis, to boycott the referendum. He pressed for international intervention, saying that was the only way to stop the country being hijacked.

“What happened to Robert Serry shows there is no longer any law or security here,” he said. “What we need is an international force here to bring order.

“Those calling themselves the government in Crimea have illegally taken power and the result of this vote will be made up in Moscow.

“We are asking people not to turn up for the referendum, but those who are government employees may be forced to do so. I believe people of Crimea want to remain in Ukraine; they are being forced into Russia.”

But for about 150 vocal people who had gathered outside parliament, Russia was the natural home of Crimeans and the threat against achieving reunion came from “fascists” and “Nazis” from Kiev and the Western powers who sponsor them.

A group of elderly ladies had set up tables to recruit for the “self-defence force”, in front of a Soviet flag. One of them, Natalya Vallanova, said: “We are looking for volunteers to defend our homeland. Every man is welcome, in fact, women should also take part, be active.”

The only women activists to turn up soon, however, were topless, from the group Femen. The elderly ladies turned on them with fury, lashing out with fists, feet, handbags. The protesters were saved from a prolonged beating by former soldiers, in Cossack hats, who carried them off to the police.

News, later in the day, of the threat of non-economic retaliations – of the US sending F-16 fighter-bombers to Poland and a warship into the Black Sea – reinforced, for some, the view that the West wanted to return to the days of Cold War.

“Others die to ensure these military powers live, look what they have done to Iraq, how they destabilised Egypt and Libya,” Leonid Kuzlov, a retired fireman, said.

rgosain · Post by **rgosain** » 07 Mar 2014 17:37

Phil, an India governement seeking to reassert India's energy security should be encouraging the Iran-Russia gas pipeline which is very feasible given the stance of all the parties now concerned. In the short-term it would make sense for Indian companies to partner with Gazprom and set up Gas-fired power stations which should run for 10 years whilst the new generation of of VVr-1000 reactors are installed across India. As the nuclear plants come on line, the gas-fired ones could be discontinued with the advantage that Russia is offering full reprocessing, but the key short-term filip is that energy is the key factor in boosting infrastructure development which has declined over the past decade.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2014 19:50

Interview with Professor Stephen Cohen ( CNN Video )

Ukraine crisis: Ignore Western hypocrisy, Putin will do what he wants

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Mar 2014 21:15

Austin wrote:Henry A. Kissinger : How the Ukraine crisis ends
Leaders of all sides should return to examining outcomes, not compete in posturing. Here is my notion of an outcome compatible with the values and security interests of all sides:

1. Ukraine should have the right to choose freely its economic and political associations, including with Europe.

2. Ukraine should not join NATO, a position I took seven years ago, when it last came up.

3. Ukraine should be free to create any government compatible with the expressed will of its people. Wise Ukrainian leaders would then opt for a policy of reconciliation between the various parts of their country. Internationally, they should pursue a posture comparable to that of Finland. That nation leaves no doubt about its fierce independence and cooperates with the West in most fields but carefully avoids institutional hostility toward Russia.

4. It is incompatible with the rules of the existing world order for Russia to annex Crimea. But it should be possible to put Crimea’s relationship to Ukraine on a less fraught basis. To that end, Russia would recognize Ukraine’s sovereignty over Crimea. Ukraine should reinforce Crimea’s autonomy in elections held in the presence of international observers. The process would include removing any ambiguities about the status of the Black Sea Fleet at Sevastopol.

These are principles, not prescriptions. People familiar with the region will know that not all of them will be palatable to all parties. The test is not absolute satisfaction but balanced dissatisfaction. If some solution based on these or comparable elements is not achieved, the drift toward confrontation will accelerate. The time for that will come soon enough.

My post a few days back on Page 12

ramana wrote:ABC Radio reporter summed it up in a few sentences.
He said:
- Putin holds all the cards
- He has troops on the ground
- He has EU dependent on Russai for energy
- Obama is reluctant to put troops to confront Russia
- Obama needs Russia in Iran nuclear deal and Syria

I think it will be some diplomatic way out which recognizes Russian interests in Crimea, keeping it part of Ukraine, EU bailout for Western Ukraine, some US economic sanctions on Russia to appease US hardliners. UK as usual will make noises and egg on US to commit suicide while they still keep their capital markets open to Russian Oligarchs.
China will laugh all the way and get closer to Russia as it turns Asiawards after teh European rebuff.

Hk bascially says same thing.

Old timers will recall the movie "Judgment at Nuremberg" about Nazi war crimes and US prosecutors legal acumen in getting the Nazis sentenced.

Well guess what? All those war crimes were in Ukraine between Nazis :Germans and UkNas!

Fareed Bhai reads his mentors views and tones down his rhetoric. However in fairness he was very balanced since the beginning of the crisis.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2014 22:57

^^ I have seen many episode of Fareed GPS and specfically for India , he can take 180 * view on the country .....sometimes if it suits the topic India is a major democracry , great power US can work with yada yada ....and at other times extreme poverty , corrupt government yada yada.

It seems he has some kind of split personality

On the HK part I think its a balanced approach keeping all the parties in the game happy with give and take......How I wish he was advising Obama .......I suspect Obama Foreign Policy Failure is due to the bad advisor he has in his inner circle.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 07 Mar 2014 23:00

Signs of the times. New headline marching by under CNN's Talking Head:

DID US INTELLIGENCE MISREAD RUSSIAN MILITARY?

Maybe time to ask: What intelligence applied to Foggy Bottom? Busy generating Top 10 Lists and new nanny scams or posting pics of Paco and Fatso

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2014 23:02

21:47
President Vladimir Putin's spokesman has ridiculed the recognition of Ukraine's current government by the West.

If one follows the logic of the West, from now on any government that has been brought in on the bayonets of armed extremists may be recognized," Dmitry Peskov said.

21:24
Following Western logic, any gov’t installed by extremists recognizable - Kremlin

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2014 23:09

via BBC http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26481558

16:41:

German Chancellor Angela Merkel tells members of the Eastern Partnership - an EU initiative governing relationships with former Soviet Union states - to "learn from the past, learn from the wars" when fighting for democracy. She was addressing the European Popular Party congress in Dublin on Friday,

17:30:

President Putin's spokesman says despite "deep disagreements" with the West over Ukraine, he hopes common ground will be found and there will be no new Cold War, Reuters reports, quoting Russian news agencies.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2014 23:12

BBC Live Feed

The International Monetary Fund (IMF) says it is "impressed" with the Ukrainian interim government's commitment to the reforms required in exchange for aid, AFP reports.

IMF European Department Director Reza Moghadam said he was "positively impressed" with their "determination, sense of responsibility and commitment to an agenda of economic reform and transparency".

You bet Ukranian people wont be impressed with IMF when those IMF prescribed reforms are implemented

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 08 Mar 2014 00:03

Singha wrote:I didnt realize there were external players in the thailand mess (going on for 2 yrs now) but plausible...

excuse the OT; I don't have the names of the Thai players at my fingertips, but I think Shinawatara (?) is run from soon-to-be-disunited-Kingdom.

Yeah, I think SSMenon's statement is right on the money; India may actually be the only country that is serious about keeping democracy around as a way to run countries in the world.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Mar 2014 00:04

Also one can ask what process was followed to create East Timor and split from Indonesia? Or Eritrea from Ethiopia?

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 08 Mar 2014 00:06

ramana wrote:Also one can ask what process was followed to create East Timor and split from Indonesia? Or Eritrea from Ethiopia?

Or Cashmere and the oppressed Baptist 7-sisters from India? (Ok, that hasn't happened yet, but is there any doubt that it is on the anvil?)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Mar 2014 00:23

Rgos.,I agree entirely.The paralysis in our Iranian policy has been inexcusable.Surrender Singh has kept looking to Washington for the Ok even to make his daily "pit stops"! Iran who are so wary of Pak,who are maltreating the Shiites in the country,are anathema to the Persians,who have a history and culture like India,spanning milllennia.Pak's pre-Partition history is entirely Indian,which it refuses to admit and is the root cause of its acute sense of inferiority ,displayed in inverse,perverse fashion by its bogus "super-superiority",especially with India.

A trilateral agreement with Russia would be a win-win-win situ for all sides.The Crimea now becomes even more important strategically if it joins Russia formally,even though all along its heart has been Russian.Even a casual look at the map of the Black Sea region shows the immense geographic presence of Russia,whose southern dagger like landmass is flanked by both the Caspian Sea in the east and the Black Sea in the West.Iran is just a stone's throw away,and the proximity of Iraq and Syria brings that beleaguered country into the strategic picture.The elephant in the room of course is the successor to the once mighty Ottoman Empire,Turkey. The "gateway" to Europe,and like Russia also a two Sea nation that NATO member controls all shipping into the Meditt from the black Sea.Iran thus becomes of immense importance to Russia,as the world's leading Shiite nation,that has its own heavy presence in the aptly named Persian Gulf,plus by outflanking Turkey and through Iran ,finding a route into the Persian Gulf,and Indian Ocean.

member_28042 · Post by **member_28042** » 08 Mar 2014 02:04

Austin wrote:Fareed Zakaria is now Toning down his rhetoric , talks of Russian interest too

Zakaria: Sanctions against Russia are just symbolic

Here is a perfect comment from the above link.

It is hard to compare the US to anything but a vulture. It rose on blood and misery of WWII. By making minimal effort or sacrifices it has put its dirty fingers in so many countries and laid brutal claim where it had none for decades. It has secured its parasitic existence by cornering world economies and enslaving them with useless paper known as dollar.

The world needs to understand that this parasite lives from death and destruction to sustain its own economy. Be it by creating chaos or raiding and destroying beautiful countries around the world for resources. It wants to have financial monopoly. It never has good intention. Never, ever! Its intention is to print useless dollars and have the world work to sustain its miserable existence.

Support free Ukraine, support Russia.

larry lawrence

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 08 Mar 2014 02:23

Crimea Jollies

On Friday, a Ukrainian military spokesman accused a group of Cossacks of smashing open the gates of a base in Crimea that controls airspace in southern Ukraine. CNN cannot independently verify the claim.

The Cossacks used a Russian military truck to breach the gates at the post near Sevastopol, Vladimir Seleznev, the military spokesman, told CNN on Friday. Some of the 100 Ukrainian officers at the base barricaded themselves inside a control room, while others are negotiating with the attackers, Seleznev said.

Ukrainian authorities also reported a second Russian naval ship had been scuttled at the entrance to Lake Donuzlav, an inlet on the western coast of Crimea that is home to a Ukrainian naval base. Viktor Shmihanovsky, vice commander of the base, told CNN that several Ukrainian naval ships are now trapped inside....

around a quarter are Ukrainian and 12% are Crimean Tatar, a predominately Muslim minority. Neither of the latter two groups would welcome a switch to Russian control..... Many spent years in exile -- in Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan or other Soviet republics -- after the Soviet Union deported them for supposedly collaborating with Adolf Hitler."It is not legal," one elderly man said. "We are the original nation of Crimea. Our Khan state was here. Russia left us with no rights.

Vodka gifts exceed 31,000 in Ukraine

"If I take the decision to use military force, it will be completely legitimate and correspond to the international law, because we have the request of the legitimate president," Putin said Tuesday, referring to ousted Ukrainian leader Viktor Yanukovych. "And also (it) corresponds to our duties and corresponds to our interest in protecting the people who are close to us historically and have connected culturally."

So there IS a war going on... interesting approach: scuttle a ship, rather than mine the harbor entrance. Very non-violent Satyagraha onlee.