Eastern Europe/Ukraine

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby GeorgeWelch » 12 Apr 2014 08:44

Virupaksha wrote:A simple question: If the occupy wallstreet overthrew obama in a coup, would you recognise those people as legitimate?

if you dont, why should a common ukranian accept a coup govt?


Whatever Ukraine's issues are, they are Ukraine's issues and Russia has no business meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs.

It certainly does not give Russia the right to seize whatever territory it wants

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby johneeG » 12 Apr 2014 10:09

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Virupaksha wrote:A simple question: If the occupy wallstreet overthrew obama in a coup, would you recognise those people as legitimate?

if you dont, why should a common ukranian accept a coup govt?


Whatever Ukraine's issues are, they are Ukraine's issues and Russia has no business meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs.

It certainly does not give Russia the right to seize whatever territory it wants



44b. Hawaiian Annexation
Ali'iolani Hale
Judiciary History Center
Image
Ali'iolani Hale, completed in 1874, was the home of the Hawaiian Legislature in the days before annexation.

By the time the United States got serious about looking beyond its own borders to conquer new lands, much of the world had already been claimed. Only a few distant territories in Africa and Asia and remote islands in the Pacific remained free from imperial grasp. Hawaii was one such plum. Led by a hereditary monarch, the inhabitants of the kingdom prevailed as an independent state. American expansionists looked with greed on the strategically located islands and waited patiently to plan their move.

Foothold in Hawaii


Interest in Hawaii began in America as early as the 1820s, when New England missionaries tried in earnest to spread their faith. Since the 1840s, keeping European powers out of Hawaii became a principal foreign policy goal. Americans acquired a true foothold in Hawaii as a result of the sugar trade. The United States government provided generous terms to Hawaiian sugar growers, and after the Civil War, profits began to swell. A turning point in U.S.-Hawaiian relations occurred in 1890, when Congress approved the McKinley Tariff, which raised import rates on foreign sugar. Hawaiian sugar planters were now being undersold in the American market, and as a result, a depression swept the islands. The sugar growers, mostly white Americans, knew that if Hawaii were to be annexed by the United States, the tariff problem would naturally disappear. At the same time, the Hawaiian throne was passed to Queen Liliuokalani, who determined that the root of Hawaii's problems was foreign interference. A great showdown was about to unfold.

Annexing Hawaii

In January 1893, the planters staged an uprising to overthrow the Queen. At the same time, they appealed to the United States armed forces for protection. Without Presidential approval, marines stormed the islands, and the American minister to the islands raised the stars and stripes in Honolulu. The Queen was forced to abdicate, and the matter was left for Washington politicians to settle. By this time, Grover Cleveland had been inaugurated President. Cleveland was an outspoken anti-imperialist and thought Americans had acted shamefully in Hawaii. He withdrew the annexation treaty from the Senate and ordered an investigation into potential wrongdoings. Cleveland aimed to restore Liliuokalani to her throne, but American public sentiment strongly favored annexation.

The matter was prolonged until after Cleveland left office. When war broke out with Spain in 1898, the military significance of Hawaiian naval bases as a way station to the Spanish Philippines outweighed all other considerations. President William McKinley signed a joint resolution annexing the islands, much like the manner in which Texas joined the Union in 1845. Hawaii remained a territory until granted statehood as the fiftieth state in 1959.


Link

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Wiki link: United States territorial acquisitions

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby GeorgeWelch » 12 Apr 2014 10:19

johneeG wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:
Whatever Ukraine's issues are, they are Ukraine's issues and Russia has no business meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs.

It certainly does not give Russia the right to seize whatever territory it wants



Hawaiian Annexation


There are many actions in the past that were wrong that I'm not going to defend.

Saying 'Well so-and-so did it in the past' is not a legitimate excuse.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Suraj » 12 Apr 2014 12:45

It's not an excuse. It's a reflection of the fact that every great power seeks to affect the destinies of its near neighborhood, or of territories it has an interest in. On paper, no one has any business interfering in anyone else's business. But in reality, history has shown that such a thing has never been the case.

Every big country interferes. The US does, EU does, Russia does, even India does. Details of the interference may differ, but essentially, one big power accusing another of interference is essentially an expression of hypocrisy. The west were very well ok with interering in Ukraine to their end, and ready to recognize the 'wishes of the people' provided they acted in sync with western interests. The Russians are simply playing the same game now.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby abhischekcc » 12 Apr 2014 12:51

The west was involved in splitting off of East from Indonesia and of Southern Sudan from Sudan is an act in the interest of Christians, who are the most likely to be pro-west. They tried the same in Ukraine but the Bear was there to upset their plans.

The west would like people to believe that the violence in the Maidan was 'democracy'. But the people in the non-western world are not fools.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby RSoami » 12 Apr 2014 13:18

Whatever Libya/Syria/Serbia issues are, they are Libya/Syria/Serbia issues and US of A has no business meddling in Libya/Syria/Serbia internal affairs.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Lisa » 12 Apr 2014 13:22

GeorgeWelch wrote:
There are many actions in the past that were wrong that I'm not going to defend.

Saying 'Well so-and-so did it in the past' is not a legitimate excuse.


So that I may understand better, at which date does the past become the past and the present the present?
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby prahaar » 12 Apr 2014 13:23

West in general and US (being the primary western power) has lost international legitimacy which was gained post WW-II. The only force they have now is that of arms, even the financial levers are due to the former.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby GeorgeWelch » 12 Apr 2014 13:53

Suraj wrote:Details of the interference may differ, but essentially, one big power accusing another of interference is essentially an expression of hypocrisy.


Which is the greater sin: hyprocrisy or crushing and devouring your neighbors?


Suraj wrote:The west were very well ok with interering in Ukraine to their end, and ready to recognize the 'wishes of the people' provided they acted in sync with western interests. The Russians are simply playing the same game now.


What western interference? There was very tepid support for the coup. No one sent any military forces.

The revolution was clearly of Ukrainian origin.

You can't compare that to Russia's flat-out invasion.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby habal » 12 Apr 2014 13:56

GeorgeWelch wrote:Which is the greater sin: hyprocrisy or crushing and devouring your neighbors?


hypocrisy is a greater sin, because your neighbours are limited and hypocrisy can be unlimited.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby johneeG » 12 Apr 2014 14:04

GeorgeWelch wrote:
What western interference? There was very tepid support for the coup. No one sent any military forces.

The revolution was clearly of Ukrainian origin.

You can't compare that to Russia's flat-out invasion.



Kiev decides to tame eastern Ukraine by foreign mercenaries

March 25, 15:43 UTC+4
Turchynov believes that law enforcement agencies in eastern regions cannot settle the issue of pro-Russian movement themselves, the source says



DNEPROPETROVSK, March 25. /ITAR-TASS/. Ukrainian authorities plan to attract US private military company Greystone Limited to suppress protest moods of the mostly Russian-speaking population in the east of the country.

According to Ukrainian Security Service, mercenaries will be engaged in political search and protection of state security over inability of Ukrainian law enforcement agencies to curb on leaders and activists of pro-Russian movement independently. This initiative was put forward by oligarchs Ihor Kolomoyskyi, a co-owner of Ukraine’s PrivatBank, and Serhiy Taruta, head of the industrial union of Donbass, a coal basin in eastern Ukraine, as these business tycoons were appointed as governors in central Ukraine’s Dnepropetrovsk region and eastern Ukraine’s Donetsk region, respectively. A source in Ukrainian Security Service which participated in recent special meeting chaired by parliament-appointed interim President Oleksandr Turchynov reported about this fact.

“Turchynov believes that law enforcement agencies in eastern regions cannot settle the issue of pro-Russian movement themselves, so they decided to attract foreign mercenaries,” the security official said. “In debates over action plan Kolomoyskyi proposed “not to re-invent a bicycle”, because there are real people who have a clear idea how much and how to pay,” he said.

Greystone security service is registered on Caribbean islands Barbados. The company recruits people from different countries through its subsidiary Satelles Solutions Inc. The company promises to its clients to provide “best military from the whole world” to fulfill tasks in any part of the world up to large-scale operations.

Private military company Greystone Limited was established 47 years ago and has British roots, as veterans of British commandoes SAS registered a basic organization of mercenaries in 1967. The company was called WatchGuard International and drew attention to itself after an abortive first large-scale operation — an attempt on the life of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi in 1971. Then the organization has undertaken the second operation already with retired US commandoes Navy SEALs during the US war in Iraq in 2003-2011, when major corporations used actively Greystone services. Now Greystone Limited is one of branches of a big mercenary empire in the United States which changes its names constantly, as this was Blackwater until 2009, then Xe Services and Academi and now US Training Center. Murders, shootings of demonstrations, arms smuggling entailed ill fame through all flashpoints in the Middle East, Asia and Africa. Now Ukraine is next in line. But today there is no exact information about the volume of the market of private military services, as it is estimated only approximately at $200 billion annually. US high-ranking officials have always occupied key posts in the empire of soldiers of fortune — from the US State Department Bureau of Counterterrorism, the Central Intelligence Agency’s Counterterrorism Center and US intelligence services.


Link


Russia Says U.S. Mercenaries in Eastern Ukraine

Russian media reports today the American security firm Greystone has teamed up with Right Sector fascists in a bid to prevent eastern Ukraine from joining the Russian Federation.

#Russia MFA: 150 American 'Greystone' experts uniformed as Falcon involved to fight pro-#Kremlin forces in #Ukraine http://t.co/OyYwRqaFDG

— Ukraine Reporter (@StateOfUkraine) April 7, 2014

Greystone is a former Xe (aka Blackwater) affiliate with offices in Virginia and the United Arab Emirates. Employing “personnel from the best militaries throughout the world,” the company offers “large scale stability operations requiring large numbers of people to assist in securing a region.”

“We are particularly concerned that the operation involves some 150 American mercenaries from a private company Greystone Ltd., dressed in the uniform of the [Ukrainian] special task police unit Sokol,” the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement. “We urge [Kyiv] to immediately stop all military preparations which could lead to a civil war.”

On March 10, Infowars.com reported the presence of corporate mercenaries in Donetsk, an industrial city in eastern Ukraine on the Kalmius River. A video posted on Youtube showed men with weapons and body armor on a street where a pro-Russian demonstration was held. A Russian diplomat told Interfax 300 employees of Blackwater, now known as Academi, had arrived in the pro-Russian city.

The mercenaries in Donetsk “are soldiers of fortune proficient in combat operations,” a diplomatic source told Interfax, according to the Daily Mail. “Most of them had operated under private contracts in Iraq, Afghanistan and other states. Most of them come from the United States.”

On the weekend activists in eastern Ukraine occupied government buildings in the cities of Donetsk, Luhansk and Kharkiv. Members of the regional legislature in the industrial center of Donetsk proclaimed the city a People’s Republic on Monday. Civilians rallied at the Donetsk Regional city administration building and hoisted a Russian flag. The Security Services Building in Luhansk was also occupied by protesters.

The government blames “separatist groups coordinated by Russian special services” for the occupations. “Enemies of Ukraine are trying to play out the Crimean scenario, but we will not let this happen,” said coup President Oleksandr Turchynov on Ukrainian television.

In response to the occupations Ukrainian special forces cleared protesters from the headquarters of Ukrainian security services in Donetsk. An “anti-terrorist” operation in Kharkiv cleared a government building and detained around 70 people, according to the coup Interior Ministry. The arrested activists will be taken to the cities of Poltava and Zaporijya and charged with “separatism, violence and taking part in mass protest,” according to Interior Ministry spokeswoman Natalia Stativko.

Vitaly Yarema, interim Deputy Prime Minister for the junta in Kyiv, said security forces would not storm the regional legislature. Victoria Syumar, deputy head of the National Security and Defense Council, told the media the junta is negotiating with activists.

On Tuesday, in response to growing separatism, the Ukrainian Parliament modified the penal code. Threatening the territorial integrity and national security of Ukraine is now punishable by three to five years in prison.

Also on Tuesday, two members of the neofascist Svoboda Party stormed the rostrum in Parliament and removed communist Petro Symonenko after he blamed ultra-nationalists of playing into the hands of Russia by using extremist tactics during demonstrations prior to the coup. A brawl between members of Svoboda and the Communist Party of Ukraine ensued.

Link

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby GeorgeWelch » 12 Apr 2014 14:09

johneeG wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:
What western interference? There was very tepid support for the coup. No one sent any military forces.

The revolution was clearly of Ukrainian origin.

You can't compare that to Russia's flat-out invasion.


Kiev decides to tame eastern Ukraine by foreign mercenaries


That was AFTER the revolution, the 'mercenaries' are working FOR the government of Ukraine.

They were not involved in the toppling of the previous government, that was the sustained protest of over 100,000 Ukrainians that did that

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Virupaksha » 12 Apr 2014 15:03

GeorgeWelch wrote:
That was AFTER the revolution, the 'mercenaries' are working FOR the government of Ukraine.

They were not involved in the toppling of the previous government, that was the sustained protest of over 100,000 Ukrainians that did that

What government of Ukraine? That clique which was hoisted on the ukranian people through snipers and guns?

That mafia which overthrew a legitimately democratically elected government?

A western puppet doesnt make a govt, it makes for a mafia.

What is the difference between a Saddam Hussein or Gaddafi or a Musharaff's regime from the present western clique in power in kiev?

So as ultimately US is the one who is going to foot the bill for them through IMF or WB, it is the US which is sending mercenaries to kill ukranians who dont accept the mafia.

What right does the US have to send these mercenaries?

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Raj » 12 Apr 2014 15:14

GeorgeWelch wrote:
What western interference? There was very tepid support for the coup. No one sent any military forces.

The revolution was clearly of Ukrainian origin.

They were not involved in the toppling of the previous government, that was the sustained protest of over 100,000 Ukrainians that did that


McCain addressing the anti-govt rally in Kiev
US Senators addressing rallies to overthrow a democratically elected government is not interference, right?

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby GeorgeWelch » 12 Apr 2014 15:16

Virupaksha wrote:What government of Ukraine? That clique which was hoisted on the ukranian people through snipers and guns?

That mafia which overthrew a legitimately democratically elected government?

A western puppet doesnt make a govt, it makes for a mafia.


You do a grave disservice to the brave people of Ukraine by referring to the huge masses of people who turned out to protest the government as 'mafia'

You don't get that many people to turn out to be 'puppets'

Virupaksha wrote:What is the difference between a Saddam Hussein or Gaddafi or a Musharaff's regime from the present western clique in power in kiev?


Hussein murdered tens of thousands of people, destroyed whole towns, used chemical weapons on his own people, crushed all who opposed him, etc

The Ukrainian government is offering amnesty to armed thugs (ie Russian agents) who took over government buildings in return for a peaceful surrender and is offering increased autonomy to some of the regions.

Virupaksha wrote:What right does the US have to send these mercenaries?


The Ukrainian government invited them

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Virupaksha » 12 Apr 2014 15:19

What happened in Ukraine wasnt a revolution, it was a western backed coup.

If the US sheep come out of the nyt and wapo brainwashing, they would see the world more clearly and not jump whenever US foreign ministry asks them to jump, only asking how high.

Ooh, saddam hussein has WMD. ooh, Assad used chemical warfare. ooh, ukraine had a revolution.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby GeorgeWelch » 12 Apr 2014 15:20

Raj wrote:McCain addressing the anti-govt rally in Kiev
US Senators addressing rallies to overthrow a democratically elected government is not interference, right?


1. The rallies weren't necessarily to overthrow the government at that time, they were to get the government to change its course.

2. No. Giving a speech is not interference. People are free to agree or not with a speech.

Sending armed provocateurs to seize buildings on the other hand is interference. Lining up divisions on the border to take what you want by force is interference.

Funding and supporting terrorists to kill people in a hotel is interference.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby GeorgeWelch » 12 Apr 2014 15:22

Virupaksha wrote:What happened in Ukraine wasnt a revolution, it was a western backed coup.

If the US sheep come out of the nyt and wapo brainwashing, they would see the world more clearly and not jump whenever US foreign ministry asks them to jump, only asking how high.


I guess all the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian protesters are just brainwashed sheep too?

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Virupaksha » 12 Apr 2014 15:28

GeorgeWelch wrote:You do a grave disservice to the brave people of Ukraine by referring to the huge masses of people who turned out to protest the government as 'mafia'

You don't get that many people to turn out to be 'puppets'

You might be awestruck by those numbers. Just give me money, I can get you ten times larger crowds.

crowds are always manipulated by politicans. I can say with confidence that 80% of those were paid, for the simple reason - who was paying for their foods, beds , toilets during their maidan drama?

Virupaksha wrote:What is the difference between a Saddam Hussein or Gaddafi or a Musharaff's regime from the present western clique in power in kiev?


Hussein murdered tens of thousands of people, destroyed whole towns, used chemical weapons on his own people, crushed all who opposed him, etc

The Ukrainian government is offering amnesty to armed thugs (ie Russian agents) who took over government buildings in return for a peaceful surrender and is offering increased autonomy to some of the regions.

again what government? a ruling clique doesnt make a democratic govt.

We all know who the armed thugs were? We saw the snipers. We know that the democratically elected president was made to run for his life.

I am pretty sure if Obama's family was threatened by occupy wall street, he would have done the same

Virupaksha wrote:What right does the US have to send these mercenaries?


The Ukrainian government invited them

Again, what government?

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Virupaksha » 12 Apr 2014 15:34

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Virupaksha wrote:What happened in Ukraine wasnt a revolution, it was a western backed coup.

If the US sheep come out of the nyt and wapo brainwashing, they would see the world more clearly and not jump whenever US foreign ministry asks them to jump, only asking how high.


I guess all the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian protesters are just brainwashed sheep too?

You might not have been involved in political mobilizing, but a half decent one not under the goebellian spell of nyt and wapo would know the difference.

There is a difference between political erosion of trust and thus a political mobilizing and the actual violent overthrow.

Fools might think that both are same. Fools would think that it is actually the 3 lakh people in maidan who overthrew the govt. The peak attendees in maidan were in early december. The violent overthrow took place in late febraury almost after 80 days.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Virupaksha » 12 Apr 2014 15:42

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Raj wrote:McCain addressing the anti-govt rally in Kiev
US Senators addressing rallies to overthrow a democratically elected government is not interference, right?


1. The rallies weren't necessarily to overthrow the government at that time, they were to get the government to change its course.

2. No. Giving a speech is not interference. People are free to agree or not with a speech.

Sending armed provocateurs to seize buildings on the other hand is interference. Lining up divisions on the border to take what you want by force is interference.

Funding and supporting terrorists to kill people in a hotel is interference.

So you are okay with Putin, Castro or Chavez coming and funding communists and terrorist rallies in washington dc?


or what is kosher for US is not kosher for others?

regarding the bolded part in your post, :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: , I can only laugh. Just a question, what was the whole maidan snipers about or has the brainwashing by nyt,wapo and co gone to a level where even a single brain cell stopped functioning in all the US public

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby UlanBatori » 12 Apr 2014 16:03

You do a grave disservice to the brave people of Ukraine by referring to the huge masses of people who turned out to protest the government as 'mafia'
You don't get that many people to turn out to be 'puppets'


1) Bro, you have evidently not had the privilege of seeing a CPI(M) "rally". They recruit "the people" from faraway villages with booze, free meals, spending money, and a free ride on the fleet of hired buses (in those days with PRC funding). Then, well-satisfied with arrack, The People had to sit until 8PM listening to speeches on
VietnamilEnthuSambhavikkunoooooooo? CambodiayilEnthuSambhavikkunnoo?

until they were herded back into buses for the trip back home.

2) IIRC, the takeover in Kiev was precisely by masked hoodlums in camos carrying weapons. Later alleged to have been led by Blackwater mercenaries.

What happened in Crimea, ITOH, happened after these events, and as a reaction to the Kiev goons and the "laws" that they passed, destroying the rights and lives of the ethnic Russian citizens of Ukraine.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby GeorgeWelch » 12 Apr 2014 16:20

Virupaksha wrote:I can say with confidence that 80% of those were paid, for the simple reason - who was paying for their foods, beds , toilets during their maidan drama?


Then why can't Russia get crowds that big?


We all know who the armed thugs were?


Do you really want me to go through all the atrocities from Yanukovych's side?



Virupaksha wrote:We know that the democratically elected president was made to run for his life.


to just quote directly from wiki:
the Ukrainian parliament passed anti-protest laws (the texts of some of them became available after MPs had voted for them) which criminalized all of the Euromaidan opposition's methods employed during protests. The laws introduced 10-year jail terms for blockading government buildings; hefty fines and prison terms for protesters who wear face masks and helmets; fines and prison terms for unauthorised installation of and provision of facilities or equipment for tents, stages or amplifiers in public places; and driving bans for people who form convoys of more than five cars. Also approved was legislation to easier strip members of parliament of immunity; the identification of members of non-government organisations funded by foreign governments or foundations as "foreign agents"; 2-year jail terms for defamation spread through social media; 1-year jail terms of corrective labour for slandering government officials; mandatory registration for internet-based media and prepaid mobile phone services purchasers. According to The Financial Times, the 11 new laws were approved while opposition lawmakers were occupying the main session hall and voted in by MPs by means of show of hands that "were too rapid to actually be counted, and in some cases done in five seconds. The opposition dubbed the day in parliament 'Black Thursday' and stated that, "Today Ukrainian parliamentarianism is dead", and that the laws have ensured "dictatorship where there is no right to assemble, to reason, to live, where there is no law, no civil rights, and no legal process". The Party of Regions faction noted that the opposition had prevented normal voting since members of opposition factions had taken away voting cards from their colleagues in parliament.


Many of those were later repealed, but as they say, the damage was done


Virupaksha wrote:Again, what government?


The government that was put in place by the Ukrainian parliament that is to hold power until the elections scheduled for May 25
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby GeorgeWelch » 12 Apr 2014 16:21

Virupaksha wrote:So you are okay with Putin, Castro or Chavez coming and funding communists and terrorist rallies in washington dc?


If they want to hold a peacefully rally, sure.

Virupaksha wrote:regarding the bolded part in your post, :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: , I can only laugh.


Why? Do you deny that they happened or are happening?

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby member_20292 » 12 Apr 2014 16:25

Careful, all ye posters, our friend GeorgeWelch is possibly the best at arguing-close-to-trolling that you can get , in the business.

his battles on how the f 18 is the best fighter for the IAF are legendary.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby GeorgeWelch » 12 Apr 2014 16:26

UlanBatori wrote:What happened in Crimea, ITOH, happened after these events, and as a reaction to the Kiev goons and the "laws" that they passed, destroying the rights and lives of the ethnic Russian citizens of Ukraine.


How exactly were the lives of ethnic Russians 'destroyed'

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby GeorgeWelch » 12 Apr 2014 16:28

mahadevbhu wrote:Careful, all ye posters, our friend GeorgeWelch is possibly the best at arguing-close-to-trolling that you can get , in the business.

his battles on how the f 18 is the best fighter for the IAF are legendary.


And I've been proven correct :D

The Eurocanards are far too expensive for the capability offered. The SH would have have been a far better choice for getting a good capability at a price that is affordable.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby pankajs » 12 Apr 2014 16:45

^^
OT but couldn't resist. A fighter that was rejected on technical grounds by the end user .. the best for the end user .. at least give some credit to IAF that they know their business more than us.
------------------------------>
Reuters India ‏@ReutersIndia 1h

Ukraine suspends gas payments to Russia until talks conclude http://reut.rs/Qg5oOx

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby GeorgeWelch » 12 Apr 2014 16:50

pankajs wrote:^^
OT but couldn't resist. A fighter that was rejected on technical grounds by the end user .. the best for the end user ..


Because a technical only analysis ignores the financial component, and India can no longer afford to ignore the financial component.

Both technical and financial criteria need to be evaluated in a holistic manner.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby pankajs » 12 Apr 2014 16:53

Pal IAF knows its business better that you. So pls do not try to impose your views on them.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby pankajs » 12 Apr 2014 17:22

The Associated Press ‏@AP 1h

When it comes Russian sanctions, Europe trying to balance punishing Moscow against fear of economic turmoil: http://apne.ws/1glJMKE

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Virupaksha » 12 Apr 2014 17:31

GeorgeWelch wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:What happened in Crimea, ITOH, happened after these events, and as a reaction to the Kiev goons and the "laws" that they passed, destroying the rights and lives of the ethnic Russian citizens of Ukraine.


How exactly were the lives of ethnic Russians 'destroyed'

When a democratically elected govt was overthrown by a violent clique supported by US, the patriotic and freedom loving Ukranian citizens can decide to say - enough of this foreign controlled governments.

They have the right to fear for their safety and well being after all, this violent clique had no morals while threathning the legitimate president of ukraine.

One of the first laws which this clique has passed is that

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-language-lav ... lborn-627/
The new Ukraine’s first law revokes Russian language rights


When ethnic russians are made second class citizens by a clique, they have a right to fear for their safety and to revolt against a western imposed clique.

Of course this news isnt covered in headlines by the US foreign minstries brainwashing mouthpieces - CNN or nyt.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Virupaksha » 12 Apr 2014 17:42

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Virupaksha wrote:I can say with confidence that 80% of those were paid, for the simple reason - who was paying for their foods, beds , toilets during their maidan drama?


Then why can't Russia get crowds that big?

may be because unlike the west, russia supports democracy and not violence powered thuggery


We all know who the armed thugs were?


Do you really want me to go through all the atrocities from Yanukovych's side?


he had the democratically elected ukranians legitimacy on his side.

Do we want to go in to the clique's atrocities? What does the clique have on its side - money bags of west and gun violence??

Virupaksha wrote:We know that the democratically elected president was made to run for his life.


to just quote directly from wiki:
Many of those were later repealed, but as they say, the damage was done


Virupaksha wrote:Again, what government?


The government that was put in place by the Ukrainian parliament that is to hold power until the elections scheduled for May 25

you mean the clique which violently overthrew a democratically elected president and threatened the parliamentarians with death threats?

That elections have 0 legitimacy under this clique. May be Chavez or Musharraf's elections having 97% greater legitimacy.

You really want an election where a democratically elected majority party is banned and those elections are somehow legitimate?
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine ... 35655.html

Party of Regions, Communist Party banned in Ivano-Frankivsk and Ternopil regions


and how is that better than Chavez or Musharaff or Saddam Hussein?

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby pankajs » 12 Apr 2014 17:58

The Indian Express ‏@IndianExpress 2h

Armed men seize eastern Ukraine police station http://iexp.in/OjR78054

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Virupaksha » 12 Apr 2014 18:02

The current fascist clique has made the following rules.
http://www.thenation.com/article/178619 ... ws-ukraine
One of its first acts was to repeal the 2012 law allowing Russian and other minority languages to be used locally. While the speaking/acting president has promised to reverse this, its passage was one of the main irritants between the predominantly Russian and the predominantly Ukrainian speaking regions of the country.

• It introduced a resolution to outlaw the Communist Party of Ukraine, which received 13 percent of the vote in 2012, and which, after the collapse of the Party of Regions, is the country’s last major political opposition party. Both the Party of Regions and the Communist Party have already been declared illegal in several Western regions by local legislatures that continue to function independently of Kiev.

• It consolidated the powers of speaker of parliament and president in one man, amassing greater powers in a single individual than is allowed under any Ukrainian constitution. It recently went even further, dismissing several justices of the Constitutional Court, and asking the newly appointed prosecutor general, a member of the Svoboda party, to bring charges against them.

• Finally, it created a new Lustration Committee to prevent those who supported the previous government from ever assuming political office again. Lustration, from the Latin term for purification, refers to mass disqualification of those who served under previous communist or Nazi regimes. They were highly controversial in Eastern Europe because of the propensity of political authorities to target potential political rivals. Judging from this interview with the chairman, it is likely to prove no less so in Ukraine.

of nineteen ministerial appointments, only two hail from the east (both from Kharkov) and none from the south, severely limiting the government’s geographic appeal.


and do people want to know what the svoboda party which is the dominant party in the ruling clique is all about?
Here is what the EU parliament says
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/oeil/popu ... 3&t=e&l=en
Parliament goes on to express concern about the rising nationalistic sentiment in Ukraine, expressed in support for the Svoboda Party, which, as a result, is one of the two new parties to enter the Verkhovna Rada. It recalls that racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views go against the EU's fundamental values and principles and therefore appeals to pro-democratic parties in the Verkhovna Rada not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions with this party.


and these are the clique leaders under whom the ethnic russians and the common hard working ukranian should follow according to nyt, wapo brainwashees.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby pankajs » 12 Apr 2014 18:29

US faces reluctant partners in sanctioning Russia
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/us-faces ... ing-russia
WASHINGTON (AP) — As it warns Russia to step back from Ukraine or suffer another financial hit, the U.S. is simultaneously trying to coax along a reluctant Europe, which is trying to balance its desire to punish Moscow against its fear of economic turmoil from the effects of a new, harsher round of Western trade sanctions.

Economists say the U.S. risks appearing weak without support from Europe, which is Russia's largest trading partner and therefore has huge sway over Russia's already shaky economy. But Europe is far from ready to issue sanctions on Moscow that would undercut its own financial stability while risking its main source of energy.

...
The EU treads more carefully than the U.S. in sanctioning Russia. The bloc's leverage is greater because of its close commercial and financial links with Moscow, including energy pipelines that pass directly through Ukraine.

Europe is Russia's largest trading partner, buying up more than three-quarters of Russia's crude oil and natural gas exports which, in turn, fund about half of the government budget. Any new sanctions by the EU must be approved by unanimous vote among its 28 member nations.

Putin has mocked the current sanctions and on Thursday warned 18 European leaders that their gas supplies were in danger. Yet apparently wary of antagonizing the EU too much, Russia has chosen to retaliate against the sanctions imposed by Washington but not by those issued in Brussels. EU officials had left little doubt that any retaliatory sanctions would prompt countermeasures.

Although the sanctions have given Russia little pause so far, Europe could find other avenues to use their trade leverage against Moscow.

...
The Obama administration is all too aware of the financial pain that tougher sanctions would bring to the global economy and not just Russia. Still, pulling back would amount to a geopolitical admission that there is only so much the West can do to pressure Putin against deeper incursions into Ukraine — especially since few if any nations now are willing to stop Russia with a military strike.

"The notion of imposing additional sanctions on Russia is symbolically very important to the U.S.," said economist Eswar Prasad, a professor at Cornell University, who formerly worked for the International Monetary Fund. "The reality is that a military response is not viable at this stage."

However, "unless the European Union plays along, the reality is that anything the U.S. does will have a very limited impact," Prasad said. "The sense that such limited actions could reveal the limited potency of U.S. actions, rather than strength, is certainly an important concern."

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Virupaksha » 12 Apr 2014 18:56

According to US, Russia had the temerity to oppose a coup sponsored by them.

That is where the whole of the whine from US lies.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby anmol » 12 Apr 2014 20:12


transcript:
‘West scared of BRICS since it can’t control bloc from within’ - Ex-Indian Foreign Secretary
April 11, 2014 06:50

Representing a fifth of the world economy, the BRICS states pose a challenge to the US-dominated world. Submarket growth in Russia and the West could also change more rapidly, shifting the whole world system Eastwards. Is this the start of a new era? Former Foreign Secretary of India Kanwal Sibal is on Sophie&Co today.

[..]

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby GeorgeWelch » 12 Apr 2014 21:10

Virupaksha wrote:http://rt.com/news/ukraine-language-lav ... lborn-627/
The new Ukraine’s first law revokes Russian language rights


When ethnic russians are made second class citizens by a clique, they have a right to fear for their safety and to revolt against a western imposed clique.

Of course this news isnt covered in headlines by the US foreign minstries brainwashing mouthpieces - CNN or nyt.


Turchynov vetoed the bill so it never became law.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby GeorgeWelch » 12 Apr 2014 21:17

Virupaksha wrote:According to US, Russia had the temerity to oppose a coup sponsored by them.

That is where the whole of the whine from US lies.


It's not 'opposing a coup' that bothers the west, it's the naked territorial expansion.

Since WWII the standard has been that it's no longer acceptable for major powers to expand their territory through force or threat of force. Sure their have been proxy wars over 'spheres of influence' or whatever, but no one is going out conquering their neighbors and adding them to their empire.

That was dealt with over 60 years ago and the cost was so high no one wants to deal with it again.


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