Eastern Europe/Ukraine

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TSJones
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by TSJones »

UlanBatori wrote:The other day I happened to see the website of an international competition related to Outer Space (technology, not philosophy or art). There were about 5 teams competing: 2 from US, 1 from India, 2 from Ukraine. 4 of them (all but 1 US team which was from industry) were student teams.

The names of the leaders of 1 US team, the Indian team and both teams from Ukraine were: desi! :eek: :eek: Talk about an international exchange: the Ukrainian Houris providing inspiration to the Bollywood/related industry, and RIUGS in the Ukrainian Space Tech universities! One team looked like from a Kharkiv university. Wonder how these kids are surviving there.
Heck, I wonder how they survive at Georgia tech. :-?

Is Boko Haram the same as Procol Harum?
vijaykarthik
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by vijaykarthik »

@UB : pl make font size of those secret characters slightly bigger. In these days of faster eye wear and tear...
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

US hypocrisy over Ukraine ‘absolutely stunning’

Published time: May 06, 2014
Daniel McAdams is Executive Director of the Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity. He served as foreign affairs advisor to US Congressman Ron Paul (R-Texas) for 12 years.
http://rt.com/op-edge/156996-us-hypocri ... -violence/
The US approach to violence in Ukraine is hypocritical, executive director of the Ron Paul Institute, Daniel McAdams, told RT. Holding an election in such a climate is impossible, yet the US will accept any result of the “wonderfully democratic” vote.

RT:The US has repeatedly praised Kiev for trying to de-escalate the situation, yet we all saw what happened in Odessa and what looks like it was allowed to happen...How do those things tally up?

Daniel McAdams: Well it is interesting, because in Kiev, not that many months ago, a couple of months to be exact, unarmed police forces were sent out against the violent protesters, and the US government – including the president and the secretary of state have – said they were “disgusted” by the show of force against these protesters. And you see in Ukraine, it is obvious that the government in Kiev is using the military against its own citizens. It is blockading cities, starving people out. This is exactly what the US used as a pretext for attack in places like Libya and elsewhere. So the hypocrisy of the US side is absolutely stunning.

RT: We heard Marie Harf from the US State Department again praising Ukraine's “restraint,” where she said that Kiev has a “responsibility to maintain law and order for their own people,” and that “the onus really is on the Russian government to pull back.” What is your comment to that?

DM: You have to wonder what reality these people are occupying. They have tried pulling a fast one, the State Department did. A couple of weeks ago when they put out those phony photos what they claimed were the Russian forces in Ukraine. The person who took those pictures, as you know, said they are completely phony. The New York Times was burned on the US State Department lies. To its credit, the NYT has actually sent some people into eastern Ukraine, and they have reported just a couple of days ago, that actually these militias don’t contain any Russians whatsoever and the people are not necessarily wanting to join Russia anyway. They are using old, worn out weapons, so the State Department just continues to pile lie upon lie. It is absolutely revolting.

RT: Will things get better after the Ukrainian presidential elections later this month?

DM: How can you run a presidential election when the army is firing on its own people? I have been an election monitor many times in bad situations, and it is simply impossible. Likewise, I'm afraid to say these referendums in the east will simply be ignored by the US or if this resolves, this desire will come out of presidential elections; the US and the OSCE will say, it is “wonderfully democratic.”

RT: We are still hearing the US calling for people in the east of Ukraine to lay down their weapons, but at the same time they are backing Kiev's government crackdown...How does it add up, calling for one thing yet doing the other?

DM: Well you see already there are reports in the German press over the weekend that the US CIA and the FBI has sent at least a couple of dozen people to advise the Ukrainian government on how to crack down. Perhaps they were advising them on assassination techniques and these sorts of things, one never knows.

The statements, views and opinions expressed in this column are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of RT.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by chanakyaa »

The Wrong Impression: Schröder's Russia Ties Are Bad Politics

With his close ties with Vladimir Putin, former German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder has the potential to create serious problems for his country's foreign policy. Many are questioning whether his Social Democrats are overly loyal to Russia.....

http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 67900.html
Philip
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

Joker-ry at its height! One doesn't know whether he is an "idiot,cretin or moron",perhaps a combination of all three.

"My referendum is good and legal ,yours is bad and illegal"!
Fascism in splendid resurgence thanks to "Insane O'bomber" and his Sancho Panza "Joker-ry". They should be in the dock at the Hague if that entity wasn't a kangaroo court.

http://rt.com/news/157252-washignton-uk ... sanctions/
Selective support: US set to punish Russia for Ukraine elections, referendums results
Published time: May 07, 2014
The Unites States and EU have denounced the referendums planned by anti-coup protesters in Eastern Ukraine as illegal, at the same time demanding that the country-wide presidential elections take place despite the military operation in the East.

Should presidential elections in Ukraine fail to take place on May 25, the US and EU are ready to blame Russia, slapping new ‘powerful’ economic sanctions on Moscow, US Secretary of State John Kerry hinted on Tuesday.

“There's no question about our ability, when we want to, to be able to put sanctions in place that are even more biting than what we have today,” Kerry said in a joint news conference with EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton.

Washington officials were sending a message that any recognition of the scheduled referendums in the east of Ukraine by Russia will have dire economic consequences, at the same time accusing Moscow of trying to disrupt the presidential elections.

“What we're doing this week,” Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland told a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing, “…is trying to develop this strong sectoral package on both sides of the Atlantic so that the Russians can see it, understand it, and understand its impact if they take further action to prevent these elections from happening.”

In imposing new sanctions the US administration will have to coordinate its actions with the European Union, Nuland added. “Keeping the cats herded is a challenge for the Europeans,” she said.

Russians are “doing everything they can” to disrupt Ukraine's elections. “It seems to me there needs to be a consequence for that up front so that that disruption doesn't continue to take place,” Senator Robert Menendez, the panel's chairman said at the hearing.

Currently over 20 Republican senators co-sponsored a bill seeking to impose tougher sanctions on Russia, in particular on major banks and energy companies.

At the same time – as Kiev continues what it calls an ‘anti-terrorist operation’ against protesters in the East – the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Ukraine, Evelyn Farkas, announced the US is sending $18 million of ‘non-lethal’ military aid to Ukraine, adding that Kiev has asked for more assistance.

A Ukrainian flag flies on a armored military vehicle at a checkpoint near the eastern Ukrainian city of Slavyansk .(AFP Photo / Sergey Bobok )

A Ukrainian flag flies on a armored military vehicle at a checkpoint near the eastern Ukrainian city of Slavyansk .(AFP Photo / Sergey Bobok )

In the meantime, Moscow stated that the absence of violence would be one of the criteria by which Russia judges the legitimacy of the presidential election, as well as the upcoming referendums in Donetsk and Lugansk.

“Elections and referendums must be free, fair, and take place in an environment that excludes violence, and be held under objective and impartial international monitoring," Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said. "Depending on how all these criteria are met, we will determine our attitude toward events."

For Kiev to de-escalate the conflict, it must cancel the order deploying the army and National Guard against the population of southeast Ukraine, he said.

Following the Crimean referendum on self-determination in March, US President Barack Obama has ordered that sanctions be applied against a number of Russian officials.

At the time, the White House stated that "the actions and policies" of the Russian government with respect to Ukraine "undermine democratic processes and institutions in Ukraine" and "threaten its peace, security, stability, sovereignty, and territorial integrity."

Obama’s executive order applies to several top Russian officials, including presidential aide Vladislav Surkov, presidential adviser Sergey Glazyev, State Duma deputy Leonid Slutsky, head of the upper chamber of the Russian parliament Valentina Matvienko and Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin.

The latest round of Russia sanctions, announced April 28, show that the Obama administration is willing to target the energy sector. “Russia is already feeling the impact of our measures,” Daniel Glaser, the US Treasury assistant secretary for terrorist financing, told the Congress hearing.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by pankajs »

CNN International ‏@cnni 2h

In #Ukraine, pro-Russian militants say there’s clear evidence the U.S. is playing a hand in the conflict: http://cnn.it/1s0PW53
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by KLNMurthy »

RSoami wrote:Guys like Putin or Assad. :eek:
US has supported Osama Bin Laden and Saddam in the past. Its only when they became inconvenient that they were dumped.

Who is US supporting now. Jihaadis in Syria. Fascists in Ukraine.
It may be interesting as to who supported whom, but Indians don't need to play that game. (well, maybe to put some upstarts in their place as needed.) For India, ultimately it is a matter of how it affects India; we are not an expansionist or aggressive power. Neither are we (in the normal, healthy condition) a follower of any other civilization or culture, because, they are mostly infantile.

Often, people belonging to such infantile cultures have a hard time wrapping their heads around this.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by TSJones »

Can Russia's (and India) war machine function with out Ukrainian parts?

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/dd4fda8cf09f
Now Russia is about to find out why it’s better to have Ukraine as a friend than as an enemy. Ukroboronprom, the Ukrainian state-owned conglomerate that controls military production, has frozen arms sales to Russia.

This is bad news for Russia’s Strategic Rocket Forces. Its SS-18 ICBMs are designed, manufactured and maintained by Ukraine’s state-owned Yuzhmash enterprise in Dnepropetrovsk. The SS-19 and SS-25 ICBMs are designed and produced in Russia, but their guidance systems come from the Khartron company in Kharkov.

These three types account for more than 80 percent of the missiles in Russia’s rocket forces.

“In addition, some 20 per cent of the natural uranium currently consumed by Russia’s nuclear industry, both for civilian and military purposes, comes from Zholti Vody in Ukraine,” RUSI reported.

Russian military dependence on Ukraine also applies to conventional arms. “Russia requires Ukrainian-produced gears for 60 percent of the surface combatants planned for its navy,” RUSI pointed out.

Ukraine’s Motor-Sich plant manufactures jet engines for Russian transport aircraft, engines for all Russian combat and transport helicopters and auxiliary power units for many types of aircraft and helicopters. Ukraine also makes auxiliary equipment, such as hydraulics and drogue parachutes, for advanced Russian fighters such as the Su-27, Su-30, Su-35 and Su-35.

Ditto for the missiles carried by those fighters. Ukrainian companies manufacture the R-27 air-to-air missile as well as seekers for the R-73.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by vina »

Can Russia's war machine function wiyh out Ukrainian parts?
Pssst. All the plants, barring Antonov (which anyway is not used by Russia and is black balled) are in the firmly pro Russian, eastern part of Ukraine. They will go back to Russian eventually, despite all the bluster of the US and the Junta in Kiev.

The Russians /Soviets were/are not stupid. They heavily industrialised Ukraine EAST of the Dneiper for very specific reasons. The European parts of Russia as a whole has no natural defensive lines from the west and that is why EVERY Russian ruler throughout history was obsessed with Russia's defence of the European part. The first natural line of defense are far to the east in the Ural mountains.

In Ukraine, the natural line of defence is the Dneiper and the industry came up to the east of Dneiper , in the firmly Russian regions (or rather the parts of Ukraine that were historically part of Russia). Lets face it. The Poland like regions of flat agricultural plains of Western Ukraine was always a Cleaved Region from the more Russian east.

Now the US and Ms. Potty Mouth (Victoria Nuland is her other name) have made absolutely sure that Ukraine as a state cleaved irrevocably along the natural fault lines (of ethnicity, history and religion) for the US absolutely selfish strategic reasons (duh.. normal US play book, smash and grab, to hell with the victims.. kick their ass and grab their oil .. rings a bell?) . Well, the Western Ukranians turned out to be as dumb as the stereotypical "Polack" and allowed themselves to be be used by the US and gladly shot themselves in their feet, lost Crimea, lost the major industrialised areas to the east, are going to lose access to the coast, and are going to be turned into a flat and fertile as Kansas (but with arguably far prettier women than in Kansas) basket case with no industry and no prospect and surviving on a "money order" economy of remittances from their men and women working in odds and ends jobs in W. Europe.

No more Prof Timoschenko and Prof Popov writing authoritative text books , nay Tomes, on Strength of Materials (I used their books in the Madrassa) as in the old Russian Empire/Soviet Ukraine, but Timoschenko and Popov descendants being day labourers and worse in a recession and unemployment hit Portugal, Spain , Italy, France,UK, Netherlands and a saturated Germany.
Austin
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

TSJones wrote:Can Russia's (and India) war machine function with out Ukrainian parts?

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/dd4fda8cf09f
Quite a misleading article I must say , I bet War is Boring Site must be a US one.

The truth is the other way round , Ukraine Defence Industry depends greatly on Russia for its exports , their Aircraft Industry Antonov , Engine Building Industry Motor-Sich and a host of other defence industry essentially built parts for Russia Products or for their own design which is marketed by Russia.

Take an example of Antonov Product their entire range of products An-148/158 , An-70 are co-funded by Russia and marked by UAC .... most of their exports success is due UAC pushing it in its export portfolio , you can bet Airbus would be more than happy to Kill Antonov.

Putin already mentioned that any components from Ukraine can be replaced in 1-2.5 years if required but he will be cautious so as to not make Ukraine East Jobless

Russia can replace defence imports lost due Ukraine crisis -Putin

When the fact about Ukraine-Russia close relation was brought by Antonov Chief and how it is greatly dependent on Russia , He was Fired from his role by the present junta. Seems they dont want to hear facts :lol:

Ukraine government fires Antonov chief
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by pankajs »

Gavin Hewitt ‏@BBCGavinHewitt 42m

Russian Foreign Ministry has called on Kiev to immediately stop use of force against own people #Ukraine
The Independent ‏@Independent 8m

Ukraine 'is on the brink of civil war', says Germany
The Independent ‏@Independent 26m

As both sides begin to bury their dead, Ukraine edges ever closer to war http://ind.pn/1ir1CZw pic.twitter.com/07SrwLB3ti
Virupaksha
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Virupaksha »

brink??

Ukraine has been in a civil war since pro-nato neo-nazi maidan coup. This was the time it required for the Ukranians to arm themselves against the clique.

In the meantime as Russia didnt want its black sea fleet involved in the mess, got back Crimea with the whole of crimeans agreeing to it - even though that meant russia cut off the most pro-russian ukranians and bases away from ukranians.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by UlanBatori »

This is bad news for Russia’s Strategic Rocket Forces. Its SS-18 ICBMs are designed, manufactured and maintained by Ukraine’s state-owned Yuzhmash enterprise in Dnepropetrovsk. The SS-19 and SS-25 ICBMs are designed and produced in Russia, but their guidance systems come from the Khartron company in Kharkov.
Let's not forget the MiG-17, MiG-19 and Su-7, and the BT-7, T-37 and T-38. :eek: Along with SS-18 and SS-19, most indispensable and historic. Couldn't have won WW2 without them tanks, nor the Korean War without the Mig-17 nor Vietnam without the Mig-19. Last I heard, SS-19s were invading Outer Space as free launchers under START. SS-18s were providing fuel for light bulbs and raw material for pressure cooker plants and shower curtains for them Ukrainian Houris.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by A_Gupta »

Virupaksha
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Virupaksha »

A_Gupta wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... ZUEBIoZu0w

Strange things in Ukraine.
nothing that the US, NATO elites dont specialize in. They started the vietnam war on the basis of a "gulf of tonkin incident" and killed thousands of common americans and millions and millions of vietnamese.

It is a false flag operation and designed for creating bad publicity for the opponent, so as to enter the next phase of war - basically kill more.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by member_20292 »

TSJones wrote:If you guys think reaching the status quo with guys like Putin and Assad is morally superior then you are welcome to your civilization values and I will glady remain with the wolves.
These guys might be brutal dictators. But some of the RESULTS OF THE ACTIONS of democratically elected western leaders ARE scarcely distinguishable in the scale of their destruction.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Virupaksha »

mahadevbhu wrote:
TSJones wrote:If you guys think reaching the status quo with guys like Putin and Assad is morally superior then you are welcome to your civilization values and I will glady remain with the wolves.
These guys might be brutal dictators. But some of the RESULTS OF THE ACTIONS of democratically elected western leaders ARE scarcely distinguishable in the scale of their destruction.
Actually flip a coin on a genocide since the second world war, you will find NATO and west to be on the side of massacres and genocides than on the other side.

I agree that they have the best brainwashing media. See, I always give credit where it is due.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by pankajs »

Jack Stubbs ‏@jc_stubbs 26m

#Putin urges Ukraine separatists to postpone referendum - full story, more follows at this link: http://reut.rs/1imAOha via @reuters
ABC News ‏@ABC 3m

Pentagon spokesperson: "We've seen no change" in Russian force posture along Russian border - @lmartinezABC
Rajiv Lather
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Rajiv Lather »

Where are the Jay twins ? The face of the West has been blackened by the Odessa fire.

Compare Ukraine with Vietnam, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria and the Balkans. How many Russians bombers shredded civilian bodies in Ukraine ? Putin is giving yet another chance to peace. Now we will see if the West's blood-thirst has been quenched, or if their greed will continue to seek more victims.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by UlanBatori »

Putin Announces Pullback from Ukraine Border

Towards the east or the west I wonder. or maybe all the troops in uniform are no longer to be found at the border?

Why would Putin withdraw forces when the UkBapzis are invading East Ukraine and committing genocide?
Philip
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

Putin's surprise move.
With his pieces on the board ready for a sweeping attack in the east,Putin has suddenly brought his rook back to square 1.The West is trying to figure out his next move.In fact what has been offered across the table might be considered a "draw",but the reality is something else.This is a "last chance saloon" offer to allow the east to constitutionally move away from Kiev,which if not played by Russian rules will invite disaster.Everyone has been expecting a massive Russian intervention after the Odessa massacre and Kiev's brutal "anti-terrorist" offensive,which gave Russia a legitimate reason for intervention.Thus Russia can at any time now intervene after blood has been spilled.It just wants the fruit ,which has steadily ripened,to drop into its hands without being "plucked"!
If the Kiev chickens refuse to play by Russian rules,then the "plucking" will be inevitable.

Looking further into time,once the eastern question has been "resolved" in favour of Russia,the leftovers of the Ukraine ,struggling for economic survival,seething in discontent will be ripe for the political plucking too,once the reality of EU economic policies start to bite.Thus,hopefully without firing a shot,Putin hopes to absorb the Ukraine lock,stock and barrel, at some point of time in the future.

Putin calls for end to Kiev’s military op, postponing referendum in E. Ukraine
Published time: May 07,
Ukrainian right-wing groups are behind the recent events in the country, Russian President Vladimir Putin said, adding that Kiev has not disarmed them. He also called on anti-Kiev protesters to postpone a May 11 federalization referendum.

"Russia believes that the crisis, which originated in Ukraine and is now actively developing in accordance with the worst-case scenario, is to be blamed on those who organized the coup in Kiev on 22-23 February and still do not care to disarm the right-wing and nationalist elements," the president said.

Direct dialogue between Kiev and anti-government protesters in southeast Ukraine is key to ending the crisis, Putin said.

It is now essential to create “to create the necessary conditions for this dialogue,” he added.

This, however, would require rescheduling the referendum, which anti-government activists scheduled on May 11 to determine the fate of southeast Ukraine.

“We are calling for southeast Ukraine representatives, supporters of federalization of the country, to postpone the May 11 referendum to create the necessary conditions for dialogue,” Putin said at a press conference with OSCE Chairperson-in-Office and Swiss President Didier Burkhalter in Moscow.

In response to Putin’s offer, one of the leaders of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic, Denis Pushilin, said the possibility would be discussed Thursday.

“We respect Putin’s position. He is a balanced politician. So we will submit this proposal tomorrow to the people’s council,” he said.

Putin also described Ukraine's May 25 presidential election as a move "in the right direction", but stressed the importance of constitutional reforms that would have to precede any nationwide vote in Ukraine.
'Russia withdraws troops from Ukrainian border'

President Vladimir Putin also said that Russia has withdrawn its troops from the Ukrainian border.

“We have been told that our troops by the Ukrainian border are a concern – we have withdrawn them. They are now not near the border, but at locations where they conduct regular drills at ranges,” he said.

Earlier, German Chancellor Angela Merkel suggested holding "roundtable discussions," a proposal that Moscow fully supports, Putin added.

Moscow and the OSCE agree substantially on the approach to resolving the situation in Ukraine, Putin said, adding that negotiations had made it clear.

“Moscow is interested in a swift resolution of the crisis in Ukraine, taking into consideration the interests of all people of the country,” he said.
OSCE drafting Ukraine roadmap

In the coming hours, OSCE will offer a “roadmap” on Ukraine, Burkhalter said.

“Our offer now is the following: literally in the next few hours we would like to offer a roadmap for the four signatories of the Geneva agreements," Burkhalter said, adding that the roadmap lays out “concrete steps” to resolve the Ukrainian crisis.

There are four major points, he said: "These are the ceasefire, the de-escalation of tensions, the dialogue and elections." Burkhalter added that the roadmap had been discussed earlier in Vienna.

It comes as a “more pragmatic” alternative to the so-called Geneva-2 peace talks on Ukraine, which Burkhalter said for now are not being planned to be held.

Burkhalter also believes that dialogue between Kiev and southeast Ukraine is a “realistic prospect.”

“As for the probability of a national dialogue in Ukraine, I think it's quite a realistic prospect, because only Ukrainian people need to be involved in determining their own destiny,” he said.

On behalf of OSCE, Burkhalter said that the organization is ready to take responsibility for coordination the “roadmap” and negotiations with the US and the EU will be taking place soon.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by RSoami »

Merkel has probably asked him to withdraw troops and distance himself from the referendum before she can consider any invitation to the pro Russian East in any future talks. Besides its quite likely that he doesnt have any leverage with them to force them to disarm anyway.
Either Putin is playing smart and impressing the germans with his simple and genuine gestures towards deescalation or he has little idea how treacherous west can be.
IMHO he doesnt care much for Washington. They are bloodthirsty warmongers but he will certainly want to stay in the german good books. In fact most of his actions in the past have a German connection. Khodorkovsky included.
Towards the east or the west I wonder. or maybe all the troops in uniform are no longer to be found at the border?
With super smart intelligence network, super duper agents, super duper spies, super duper drones and above all super duper brains none of the western media have been able to give an iota of proof of Russian covert involvement in Eastern Ukraine. If Unkill did have any such information Obama would be dancing naked on top of White house. The Western Media has eaten its words a couple of times already though. What goes to continue with nonsense with no proof. Hain jee !!
Why would Putin withdraw forces when the UkBapzis are invading East Ukraine and committing genocide?
You are correct. He is not withdrawing. He is giving new dress to them. Dressing up tanks as Christmas trees. Planes as large Dragonflies and missiles as you know what. If you think am kidding wait before you read some paper in US or hear some genius talk.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

This western media report shows that Hague is completely off the mark when it comes to the truth of events.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 34328.html
Ukraine crisis: The Odessa file - how a cultural melting pot boiled over into sectarian strife

The vacuum left by last week’s deadly fire has been filled with fear, tension and recrimination. Kim Sengupta reports from the city
Kim Sengupta
Odessa
Wednesday 07 May 2014

As a shaft of sunlight fell across the desk strewn with piles of paper and files and staplers, Marina Votyakova whispered: “Why couldn’t he have been here? He would have been safe here. Look, there is no damage, the fire didn’t reach here, not a mark.” She looked down at the parquet floor, ran her finger gently along the lemon yellow wall and repeated: “I don’t understand, why didn’t he run here?” Her voice faded away as she wiped her tears with a rolled-up tissue clutched tightly in her hand.

The room she described was on the third floor of the trade union building in Odessa, one among a handful in a wing which had been left virtually untouched while others had been gutted by the raging fire, turned into charred shells, the furniture incinerated. The dead are still being counted from Odessa’s terrible fire: it was 31 at first, then went up to 48, while the number of injured has risen to 200. Some burnt alive, some asphyxiated, some jumped to their deaths.

The inability of the authorities to say just how many perished, four days on, has prompted dark tales of bodies in the basement spirited away and buried by the authorities. They show, it is claimed, signs of torture; women victims have been raped. There is no evidence to support these claims, but they fester in this atmosphere of malignant hatred and suspicion which is so bitterly dividing Ukraine. The toll in Odessa was the single largest in one day since the overthrow of President Viktor Yanukovych. Most of those who died were pro-Russian demonstrators, some of whom had been meting out their own violence on Ukrainian nationalists before being chased and trapped by a baying mob flinging missiles; both sides are said to have used Molotov cocktails, although most of them appeared to be incoming.

The public began to arrive in large numbers on Monday. Marina, a 60-year-old grandmother, arrived with an arm full of tulips through the blackened entrance into a shrine of flowers and candles and religious icons. She did not know where her son Sasha had spent his final moments. She stopped at the door to look at a list of names and photographs, then flinched and looked away.

“I do not think they should have those up there, what effect will it have on relations? I hope Sasha did not suffer like those poor people; but of course, I have to accept he may have done. But who could do such things? What is happening to us, here of all places, a place where we used to get on? ” she wondered.

Her dead son, a 25-year-old mechanic, was the product of such a mixed heritage. Marina’s estranged husband is of Moldovan and Russian parentage; Sasha bears his father’s surname; she requested that it not be printed because two other sons are also activists and may, she feared, become targets for their enemies.

A service for 17-year-old Vadim Papura, who died after jumping out of the burning trade union building (AP) A service for 17-year-old Vadim Papura, who died after jumping out of the burning trade union building (AP)
Marina was telling me about her Russian, Ukrainian and Romanian background, the family celebration over the years of different saints’ days. A group had gathered to listen, a common occurrence now around the media: at times this has led to hostility towards foreign journalists. But the mood here was much more restrained. “Listen to this poor lady, it is important. You were saying you have been staying in the Donbass – we know things have been bad there,” one woman was keen to explain, clutching my arm: “But this is Odessa, we are very different here from the coal-mining people: OK, like them I don’t want to be part of Ukraine, but we had learnt to get on with each other here, we debate things, it has always been like that.”

Certainly the history of the Black Sea port is a rich whirl of different races and cultures. Captured for Catherine the Great of Russia from the Ottomans by a Spanish-Irish soldier of fortune, Don Jose de Ribas, it began its rise with Armand Emmanuel Duc de Richelieu, a great-nephew of the French cardinal, as governor. One of his successors was Mikhail Vorontsov, with a Russian father and a British mother who was a sister of the Earl of Pembroke. Even the Odessa Steps were built by an English engineer.

A German company provided gaslights; a British one the waterworks; the Belgians the trams, the Austrians the opera house. A Russian visitor wrote in 1840: “The Russian jostles against a Turk, a German against a Greek, an Englishman against an Armenian, an Italian against a Persian… Everything surges and mixes together.”

Odessa continued to feel cosmopolitan and saw itself as sophisticated and European through the Communist time and beyond. There are supposedly the descendants of 200 nationalities here. This place, for liberals, should be the future of Ukraine in a microcosm. But the battle lines now are between the Russian and Ukrainian factions with extremists on both sides threatening retribution. Further violence here would pose huge difficulties for the Kiev administration which has embarked on a difficult military operation in the Donbass. It would also give a glimpse of a future of foreboding for the country.

Ukraine’s interim government was swift to lay responsibility on the security forces for the deaths. Announcing the sacking of the police chief, Pyotr Lutsuk, the Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk said: “I blame the security services and law enforcement officers for doing nothing; they are inefficient and they violated the law.” The following day riot police offered no resistance when a crowd burst into their headquarters: instead they freed around 70 prisoners from their cells.

The governor was sacked on Tuesday and replaced by Ihor Palytsya, an MP. Arsen Avakov, the acting Interior Minister, announced that an “elite special operations unit”, the Storm, was being sent to bring order to the city.

People wait to be rescued on upper storeys of the burning trade union building in Odessa, May 2 (Reuters) People wait to be rescued on upper storeys of the burning trade union building in Odessa, May 2 (Reuters)
The police had been accused by the Ukrainian nationalists of shielding separatists carrying out attacks. This was denied by two policemen inside the trade union building; they were there, they said, to make sure everything was alright, but also to pay their respects. Their views were clear: “It will be a mistake to send in outside forces. What happened was terrible, but very unusual: but this is our city, it is a special city, we have an understanding here, we can solve it ourselves,” said one of them, Pavel.

They may not get the chance to do so. At Kherson airport, normally used for package tours, military transport helicopters were unloading equipment, trucks were ready for more flights bringing in forces. Were they going to Odessa or the Donbass? “I cannot say, really cannot say, we are awaiting orders, I am just dealing with logistics,” said a sergeant. How would he feel about Odessa? “We used to go on holiday there, pretty place, shame if there’s more trouble there.”

The separatists in Odessa maintain they are ready, if punitive action does come their way. Yuri Shubovich, 23, had been one of those from the “anti-Maidan” movement which sprang up in opposition to the Kiev protests had been among those camping in the central square, Kulikovo Pole, which was attacked on Friday evening. “They burnt down our tents; they have been waiting for four months to do this, and they had their chance that night, the fascists. Then they went and burnt all those people inside the union building,” he exclaimed. “How can there be peace now? So we just wait for the Right Sector to kill more of us? No, people will defend themselves.”

The Right Sector, an extreme nationalist group, has become a bogeyman in the south and east of the country, accused of carrying out the Kiev administration’s dirty war. The few I met in Odessa did not seem capable of killings; they were rather a nasty, homophobic and racist lot who talked tough. They would not last long, one felt, on the streets of separatist Slovyansk.

“Please, don’t say we all support those kind of people. This is just a way of tainting those who are pro-democratic, who want a united Ukraine, people like me,” said an earnest Milla Kornukovenko. “Talk like that just creates trouble, that’s what our enemies want.” The 19-year-old student was on the march on Friday night, escaping as the fighting got fierce. “I was frightened, there were all kinds of people there: us, the separatists, ultras [football fans], people had axes, knives and guns. We don’t get things like this there.”

Odessa has not, of course, been completely free of vicious strife; one of Ukraine’s worst pogroms of modern times took place there in 1871, on the night before Easter, with Jewish homes and businesses destroyed as the police stood by. In 1941, Hitler’s forces killed around 170,000 Jews, 80 per cent of the community, in Odessa and its hinterland.



This week the leader of the city’s Jewish community, Rabbi Refael Kruskal, stated that plans had been drawn up to evacuate families if anti-Semitism begins to rear its head. The day of 9 May, when Russians commemorate victory over Nazi Germany, is looked upon as a potential flashpoint across the country.

“The next weekend is going to be very violent”, the Rabbi told The Jerusalem Post. “When there is shooting in the streets, the first plan is to take the children out of the city centre. If it gets worse… we have plans to take them out of the city to a different country if necessary.”

Speaking of Jewish fears, Marina Votyakova shook her head: “I hope that does not happen. I think the Romanian part of my family came from Romanian soldiers who came here with the Germans. They did not take part in anything against the Jews. I would be very ashamed if that was not the case. I hope, instead of fighting, everyone gets together on that day. We need to get back our Odessa.”

Kiev's crackdown in Mariupol

“So you want to join Russia?” the masked soldier shouted as he repeatedly kicked a man who made no attempt to defend himself, at then at the end flying into an even greater rage and pistol whipping him. His comrades were firing into the ground in front of us, the bullets ricocheting up in the air, and doing their own bit of hitting of protestors.

It was an unprovoked attack on a section of people at the back of a demonstration who were not engaged in any acts of aggression. At the end there were a few cracked skulls, a broken nose, some cracked ribs. The incident outside the police station in Mariupol was hardly in the upper end of the violence which had spread across this region. But it did add to the sense of deep anger felt by many who feel under threat by the forces Kiev administration and will further strengthen the hands of those who had turned to the gun.

The Ukrainian soldiers in black combat uniforms, wearing balaclavas were variously described as members of the National Guard, the Ministry of Interior police or special - forces. They were ill-disciplined and disorganised, some of those beaten up were arrested, and punched some more, hooded and taken away in buses along with someone who was found with a Russian flag in his car. The man with his head split open with the pistol butt had his mobile phone crushed under a boot; he had been talking to his daughter on the phone.

Speaking to the companions of those detained, none seemed to be a hardened terrorist. Elena Rukoshova, a 26-year-old former nursery school teacher, cried as she described how her friend Jaroslav was hit and arrested. “He had his phone in his hand, the men in black thought he was taking photos. He showed them no pictures had been taken, but they hit him and took him away.”

William Hague has accused the Russians were fermenting all the disorder in Ukraine, but on this occasion we had failed to spot the cunning Kremlin agents.
Dmitri Vachylaev, who had also been hit, asked: “What do you think of our democratic government, the ones Britain and America are so happy to support? I wasn’t even part of this protest, I am not a separatist. I was on my way to work, I live in that block of flats over there. Anyway, I better go, I am an insurance salesman, perhaps I can sell some policies on being attacked by the Ukrainian government.”

Kim Sengupta in Mariupol
UlanBatori
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by UlanBatori »

I can see that Putin has done the equivalent of making the rope go slack in a tug of war, (only one side is now going around using their military against civilians!) but if he allows the UkBapZi Army to crush the Pro-Democracy Freedom Fighters, log kya kahenge in the Moscow supermarkets? Surely he cannot allow that.

Having started the withdrawal, if the UkBapZis don't pull back immediately, can he redeploy, say with an airborne/ Spetznaz intervention? It does not look like it will take much to make the UkBapZi Invasion Force break and run, or surrender/defect en masse except for the RightSector goons. For them, as the old saying goes:
Ahr soldiers went to war
Ahr soldiers fought well
Ahr soldiers shoved their bayonets
Up the Major's Ar***ole!
Is he going to use the civilians/ ProDemocracy Freedom Fighters as cannon fodder just to make his point?

The other interpretation is that time is actually on the side of the PDFF. Russia can keep supplying them with food. If there is an effective ceasefire-in-place, then most of East Ukraine is in PDFF hands, the UkBapZi Army is stuck in its APCs across the Dnieper, the PDFF force is steadily advancing and encircling Kiev and Kharkiv and Odessa... and the Russian withdrawal imposes a ceasefire and ties the hands of the UkBapZis.

But the puppeteers can see that as well as I can, so won't they push for a blitz to take back the buildings and city centers? But with what cost in bloodshed?

Interesting chess match now. The Russians have suddenly accepted all conditions that the West has been yelling for. What is the other side going to do?
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Rajiv Lather »

Godhra gambit - GM Putin refuses to walk into the obvious trap. He has sacrificed a single pawn, and is holding back his heavies. He will use them, if necessary, at a time and place of his choosing.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

Plus making the West to spend billions on supporting their puppets,pay Russia what is owed-huge sums for Russian gas,etc.? The Odessa massacre was a massive windfall for Russia and Putin.It marked a turning point in the crisis.The huge number of pro-Russian protesters massacred has shocked the independent Western media ,which is now reporting in a more neutral manner. The West was bracing itself for a swift Russian invasion,but Putin has now shown exceptional restraint,that of a genuine "peacemaker",in stark contrast to the warmongerers of the White House.He is deftly and cleverly driving a wedge between the Euro-Peons and the Yanquis. The Yanquis want "war,war",while the Euro-Peons want "jaw,jaw".

The Russian demand for the "federalisation" of the Ukraine and demolition of the western hopes of it becoming a military outpost for NATO ,is its goal.This goal can be best negotiated at the table.The threat of military intervention is always there.The financial implications for Europe of any Russian intervention would spell havoc for EU and Swiss banks and Russia would also take a hit too.It is probably why the Swiss ambassador is involved in the peace parleys.His banks must've set off the alarms !

http://rt.com/news/157256-odessa-witnes ... e-ukraine/
Odessa tragedy survivor: ‘Many people strangled after escaping the fire’
Published time: May 07, 2014
Radicals set the building with innocent people inside on fire in Odessa, then strangled the survivors and finished them with bats, while police did nothing to prevent the bloodshed. That’s the scary picture a survivor of the massacre told RT.

“First of all, nobody expected such cruelty, and secondly, it was too late to escape,” Tatyana Ivananko told RT’s correspondent Alexey Yaroshevsky about the Odessa tragedy on May 2, after which at least 46 people died in flames, when radicals set ablaze the local House of Trade Unions with anti-government protesters trapped inside.

According to the witness, pro-autonomy activists wanted to hide from the radicals by barricading themselves in the building.

“On our way up the stairs, we were taking plywood sheets inside so that we could block the doors and prevent them from getting into the building,” she says.

Tatyana Ivananko, Odessa massacre survivor (Still from RT video)
However, the crowd of pro-government supporters who were trying to enter the building was quickly becoming bigger.

“They were coming from everywhere,” she added.

According to Tatyana, the radicals started hurling Molotov cocktails, after which the first and the third floors of the House of Trade Unions burst into flames.

Tatyana also recalled that the outraged crowd outside was shouting that they wouldn't let anybody out.

“They were also throwing firecrackers, so people in the halls were sitting on the floor, blinded.” She added, “At that moment you realize there is no way to help these people so you'd better rescue yourself.”

Public services such as police and fire brigade were not rushing to rescue the injured people.

“The police were idle not doing anything,” she recalls. “When firefighters arrived it was too late – too many people had already died, even though the closest fire station is 700 meters away from the site.”

According to the numerous videos released in the Internet, many victims of the Odessa massacre received bullet wounds. On some of the videos a man in a bulletproof vest who introduces himself as sotnik Mykola (“sotnik” is what Maidan group leaders in Kiev call themselves) is shooting several times in the direction of the burning House of Trade Unions.

“Have a look at the video,” says Tatyana, pointing to the footage where Micola is pictured. “This armed man in a vest is carrying a gun.”

People wait to be rescued on upper storeys at the trade union building in Odessa May 2, 2014. (Reuters / Yevgeny Volokin)
According to her, the shooting started in Grecheskaya Street, in the north of the city.

Tatyana said that after the pro-government activists managed to enter the burning building, “many people were strangled. I didn’t know how they [pro-government activists] were able to get through the fire but they did,” she added.

She recalled that the radicals “finished off some of the people who managed to escape, and threw from the windows those who didn’t, to kill them on the ground.”

“17-year-old hooligans were finishing people with bats,” she added.

Meanwhile, the next day after the clashes, Ukraine’s Vice President, Vitaly Yarema, said that some of those who were killed in the Trade Union building were foreign nationals.

However, Tatyana denied this information saying that all the people who were killed on May 2 came from Odessa.

“They all loved their city deeply. We stood shoulder to shoulder from the very first day,” she said. “A regional council deputy, Vyacheslav Markin, is also known to have been killed in the flames.”

She also commented on the reports from mostly western outlets, which claim that some of those killed were “mercenaries from Russia.”

“If we had indeed been mercenaries, there would have been fewer victims, and not on our side,” adding that the only thing they received from Russia was “moral support.”
A_Gupta
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by A_Gupta »

Retired US Army Col. W. P. Lang:
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semp ... 30317.html
The US propaganda mill continues to sell the WH line that Russia is altogether to blame for unrest in Ukraine. What a joke! Do people really believe this?
I wonder on which side of the civilizational divide Col. Lang belongs? The reality-based community or the side that makes up its own reality?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality-based_community
The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.
Since TSJones brought up Syria, into this thread, Col. W. P. Lang had this:
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semp ... rahim.html
"Consider the atrocities earlier committed in Ma‘loula, Syria, an ancient Christian village where the inhabitants still spoke Aramaic, the language of Christ.

According to recent Arabic news media, “a Syrian nun testified to the Vatican news agency that some Christians in Ma‘loula were crucified for refusing to convert to Islam or pay jizya” (tribute subjugated Christians are required to pay to their Islamic conquerors in order to exist as Christians, per Koran 9:29)." Ibrahim

---------------------------

"Jizya" is an ancient capitation tax levied on the unconverted since the time of the earlist Islamic conquests. Muslims do not pay taxes in Islamic sharia states. They are required to tithe (zakat) but not to pay taxes.

It is sadly ironic that American and French propaganda continues to portray the Syrian Arab Government as barbaric while it actually seeks to protect the Christian and other minorities in the country from fanatics like ISIS.
It would seem coming to terms with Assad may not be contrary to **American** civilizational values, to the extent that Col. Lang represents American values.
Austin
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

If Merkel sponsored Geneva-2 rounds manage to bring solution between the two parties her standing in Europe will go very high , Putin trust Merkel a lot , Merkel understands the Russians better as she grew up in East Germany and Putin is quite fluent in German and they speak in that language with each other as well as share many common things between them.

Putin doesnt trust Obama much on Ukraine and far less his Neo-on Seceratary of State John Kerry where once he called John a liar during Syrian crisis but Obama has good relation with Merkel so there is a meeting ground for Russian and US when it comes to Merkel.

Bringing in OSCE to solve the issue would let Europe lead the crisis resolution as US and Russia both part of OSCE.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Vayutuvan »

Does Merkel still trust Obama? Snoopgate would have been a monkey wrench as it were. Merkel was reportedly very upset by such a cowardly backstabbing by those presumed pot be German friends.
Austin
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

matrimc wrote:Does Merkel still trust Obama? Snoopgate would have been a monkey wrench as it were. Merkel was reportedly very upset by such a cowardly backstabbing by those presumed pot be German friends.
Yes thats true but recently she visited US and was with POTUS announcing Sectorial Sanction etc so she has stake in it. Although as far as Snoopgate goes there were known disagreement.

Merkel is perhaps right now the tallest leader in Europe and if she cant cut the ice no one can.

Most certainly US and Russia are not going to agree with each other on Ukraine.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by RSoami »

There is longstanding divide between pacifist Germany and super macho Unkill for a long time now. German leaders have been trying hard to walk the tight rope.
What Putin is doing, he is showing the Germans how reasonable he is and what warmongers people in US are. He has been working at Germans for a long time now. Schroeder is a friend. He talks to Merkel but not to any Yanquis. Release Khodorkovsky. He is giving importance to Germans. Accepting Washington`s demands only because they are coming through Berlin. The economic stakes for both Germany and Russia in each other is enormous. US is helping with its phone tapping business. Unilateral war making etc.
If German foreign policy does break away from toeing the American line, that would be a decisive blow for the US empire as well a big big win for Russia.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by vijaykarthik »

pankajs
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by pankajs »

BBC Breaking News ‏@BBCBreaking 18m

Ukraine to continue "anti-terror" operations in the east regardless of rebel decision on referendum - top official http://bbc.in/1kQdsO8
Keir Simmons ‏@KeirSimmons 36m

Source confirms to @NBCNews pro-Russians in Eastern Ukraine to hold a independence ballot Sunday despite President Putin's call for a delay.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by UlanBatori »

I c. So Putin wants to allow the Referendum to go ahead without "Russian Interference" so he has pulled the troops back. Now it will take them 30 minutes to get to the border where b4 they could just biss on the UkBapZis.

The UkBapZis have to rush now, on the principle:
Flunk Now, Avoid the Rush Later
The moment they attack the ProDemocracy Freedom Fighters for merely exercising their will in democratic elections, all bets are off. The Vodka Shipments roll across the border and on into Kiev.
ramana
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by ramana »

Mid 18th century saw the Eastward shift in Europe from Western Europe. This gave rise to three states:Prussia, Russia and Austria.
Prussia expanded to become Germany. Austria expanded with Hungary and declined to become a tourist destination. And Russia expanded, transformed and came back.

The 19th and 20th century were the tussle between Eastern Europe three states and Western Europe. The Western Europe question was settled by two world wars and one Cold War.


What we are seeing is the last struggles of WE thought process on EE with the former adopting older EE practices to bring down EE!!!
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Vayutuvan »

RSoami wrote:If German foreign policy does break away from toeing the American line, that would be a decisive blow for the US empire as well a big big win for Russia.
They cannot away from US that easily. Two reasons that come to mind immediately are Germany does not have an army and cannot militarize and their economy is totally intertwined with that of US. You might have seen of those multi-ball pendulums on peoples desks.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

After the Odessa massacre,it appears that the point of no return was passed on the road to Ukranian disintegration ,as from reports like these,the freedom fighters in the east have their own agenda.

Ukraine: siege mentality pushes south-eastern region to precipice of civil war
In the town of Konstaninovka, an uneasy atmosphere of threats and violence is building ahead of a vote on independence

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/m ... -civil-war
Shaun Walker in Konstantinovka
The Guardian, Thursday 8 May 201
Sergei Chertkov leafs through a stack of documents with a heavy sigh. In the regional administration building in Konstantinovka paper has replaced emails in recent days; the computers have been stored in a safe place so that they cannot be looted if the building is seized by armed rebels.

The mayor fled the town (officially on "sick leave") after the town hall was seized by the fighters of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic a week ago, while Chertkov and his regional administration are still standing, for now. But the situation in Konstantinovka is a microcosm of what has happened across south-east Ukraine in recent weeks.

After a week in which dozens of people died in clashes between the separatists and the Ukrainian army, the region is standing at the precipice of full-blown civil war. On Thursday the separatists insisted they would go ahead with a referendum on independence planned for Sunday, despite Russian president Vladimir Putin's surprise call to postpone it.

Konstantinovka, a town of about 75,000 people 40 miles away from the regional centre of Donetsk, has, like most towns in the area, been engulfed by the uprising that swept the region following the February revolution in Kiev, which led to President Viktor Yanukovych fleeing Ukraine and the formation of an interim government that Moscow has labelled as "neo-fascist".

The town hall was seized 10 days ago and is now surrounded by several barricades and occupied by a motley assortment of Kalashnikov-wielding rebels. The police have melted away; some of them have even joined the opposition. Roadblocks have been set up around the town, a siege mentality has taken hold, and dissident voices have either been violently silenced or melted away in fear. "A month ago, nobody could ever have imagined this would happen," says Chertkov, shaking his head in disbelief.
Konstaninovka Men help with the placing of concrete blocks to form a barricade. Photograph: Vasily Maximov/AFP/Getty Images

There are real issues that worry the local population. The interim government blundered when it repealed a Yanukovych-era language law that gave Russian special status in certain regions, and even though the move was soon rescinded the damage had been done. The horrific deaths in Odessa last week of more than 40 pro-Russian protesters, in a fire that came after violent clashes with pro-Ukrainians, have been portrayed as a fascist massacre by Russian television, and used to enhance grievances in the region.

But the economic situation has also provided fertile ground for fear and discontent. Unlike many of the coal-mining towns elsewhere in the Donbas region, Konstantinovka has always been known for its glass production. At their peak, during the Soviet period, the town's three glass factories employed more than 15,000 people between them. They produced the red stars that stand atop the Kremlin towers in Moscow, and the glass for Vladimir Lenin's sarcophagus, housed in his Red Square mausoleum. In the late 1980s the factories produced over 150m glass bottles a year, to package sweet Crimean imitation champagne and send them far and wide to celebrate birthdays and weddings across the Soviet Union.

But the party is long over. Now, the factories lie in ruins around the outskirts of town. Just a few workshops are still operational, employing a mere 600 people. Even the centre of town is decaying. The asphalt on the roads is cracked, and huge weeds sprout across the pavements. The stone models of a bright yellow camel and of Snow White and the seven dwarfs in the central park look somewhat sinister, surrounded by knee-high grass that has not been cut for months. Remove the people and it might be Pripyat, the Ukrainian city that was evacuated in the wake of the Chernobyl disaster and is now a ghost town.

Unemployment is high, and on a weekday morning many people are drinking. A lot of the town's menfolk have gone to Russia to make money. "For 23 years we have been living on what we got from the Soviet Union," says Chertkov, who like most politicians in the region is a member of Yanukovych's Party of Regions. "Nothing new has been built, nothing has been modernised. Many people are upset and angry with their fate."

Alexander Melanchenko, a doctor and previously a pro-Ukrainian member of the local parliament, who has left the town, says that local officials themselves started the panic in the town back in December, when the Maidan protests started in Kiev. "They started whipping up fear about Ukrainian nationalists and fascists coming from western Ukraine, in order to solidify their own support base; they had no idea that the whole thing would be seized on by the Russians and blown out of all proportion. Now they too are scared. They don't want to lose all the money they have amassed."

"This is a region of workers, a region where people traditionally think in a collectivist way, and it is very easy for myths to take hold here," says Yuri Temirov, a history professor at Donetsk National University. "The Party of Regions started to create tension starting from the end of last year, telling all these scary tales of fascists. This set the tone, and everything was seized by a well-organised campaign bigger than anyone could have imagined."

On Thursday, outside the local administration building, some of the fighters are dressed in camouflage while others wear hoodies and balaclavas. All carry guns – a mixture of pistols and Kalashnikovs.
Konstantinovka A pro-Russian separatist stands guard outside the town hall. Photograph: Scott Olson/Getty Images

"You are a lying fascist supporter," one of the men tells a reporter, delivering a recurrent message in an unusually polite way. "We only give information to Russia Today and perhaps the Chinese. We know who you are and who you work for."

Eventually a group of fighters agree to speak, though they do not give their names. They insist that everyone inside the building is local, and say nobody has come from Russia. Their commander, they say, is a local lathe operator, who in turn takes his orders from the headquarters of the Donetsk People's Republic. They refuse to say where they got their weapons, but sources in the town said they were seized from, or donated by, the local police force.

"The referendum will go ahead whatever, and we can never again live with Ukraine," says one. "We lost too many friends in the fighting in Slavyansk for us to go back to where we were before."

The barricades around the occupied town hall are adorned with signs decrying the lying western media and politicians. The men do not allow entry into the building, but it is possibly a smaller version of the rebellion's headquarters in Donetsk, housed in an 11-storey building which has everything from a press service to a cell where a number of hostages are believed to be detained. In Donetsk, the walls in the stairwell are plastered with similarly sinister messages. Some depict the Ukrainian interim government as prostitutes or Nazis, while others display the photographs of pro-Ukrainian activists in the city, giving their social network pages and often phone numbers or addresses.

Conversations between fighters outside the headquarters in Konstantinovka also suggest a situation of vigilante justice in the region, as the police have effectively ceased to function. "Brought a junkie in last night, and put him down on his knees. He shouldn't give you any trouble now," one Kalashnikov-toting fighter said to another with a smile.

There has been little fighting in the town, although there was a gun battle when the Ukrainian army retook the local television tower, and many of the fighters spend their days at roadblocks, of which there are dozens in the town and on surrounding roads, fashioned out of stacked walls of tyres, sandbags, tree trunks and barbed wire.

Just who happens to be manning a road block at any given time is a matter of pure luck, and for drivers akin to playing Russian roulette. A checkpoint that one day is guarded by ex-soldiers who may carry automatic weapons but handle themselves politely and professionally can the next day be manned by wild-eyed youths in tracksuits, wielding baseball bats.

After nightfall, the checkpoints become dangerous as their guardians are gripped by intoxication and anxiety. Passing through Konstantinovka one evening earlier this week, US journalist Simon Shuster was stopped at a roadblock, and when one of the men on duty spotted a flak jacket in the boot, Shuster was pulled out of the car without a word, cracked on the skull with the butt of a pistol and kicked, before being driven off to a detention facility in another city covered in blood.
Damaged fuel tanker blocks road in Konstantinovka A damaged fuel tanker blocks a road in Konstantinovka. Photograph: Evgeniy Maloletka/AP

After those with authority among the separatists realised a journalist had been injured, Shuster was freed. Reassuringly, the man who had inflicted the damage was even tracked down and detained; less reassuringly, Shuster was invited to witness or participate in some kind of retribution against the rogue element. He declined to attend.

Since the unrest started there has been an uneasy atmosphere of threats and violence. A fortnight ago – even before the town hall was seized – the offices of the local newspaper Provintsia were attacked at night with molotov cocktails. The next week the journalists still managed to put the paper out, but the entire print run was seized by armed separatists. Their crime was to print articles sceptical about the Donetsk People's Republic; the newspaper was denounced as pro-fascist.

Two members of Svoboda, which is indeed a far-right Ukrainian movement, were kidnapped from their homes in Konstaninovka more than a week ago by armed men who smashed down the doors to their homes, beat them, threw them into the boots of cars and drove off. Nothing has been heard from them since, though it is believed that they are being kept in the seized security services building in Slavyansk. "They were members of Svoboda, but they did not lead an active political life or threaten anyone in any way," says Melanchenko. There is a witch-hunt for the few independent journalists and activists, say several people who have fled the town – they hope only temporarily – and who did not want to be named. Given the distinct lack of any actual fascists descending on Konstantinovka, a fifth column within the town had to be found. Receiving the message loud and clear, everybody else with doubts decided to keep quiet.

"Many people in Konstantinovka are horrified with what is happening, but they are scared to speak out. Because a few people are shouting loudly, you can get a false impression that they are the majority," says Melanchenko.

Nevertheless, events in Odessa, Ukrainian military operations and the designation of the separatists as "terrorists" have all brought more and more people over to the side of those fighting. On Thursday a steady stream of locals brought donations of food to the occupied town hall; an elderly lady gave what she said was her last 10 hrivnya (50p) to the cause.

The rhetoric on both sides has become disturbingly uncompromising, with the dehumanisation and humiliation of the enemy that usually precedes civil wars. Both Russian and Ukrainian media report outrageous rumours about the other side as fact. Among ordinary people Ukrainians are routinely described as fascists, while Ukrainians insist that there is no civil war, only a Russian-sponsored terrorist movement – ignoring the depth of feeling among large swaths of the population who support the armed opposition.

Ukrainian social media have started calling the pro-Russian protesters koloradiki, referring to the orange and black stripes of the colorado beetle, the same colours as Russians wear to commemorate the second world war victory, which have become a symbol of the uprising.

And while the pro-Russians have taken hostages in the most disturbing fashion, the behaviour of pro-Ukraine forces is exacerbating the situation. On Tuesday, pro-Ukrainian forces detained Igor Kakidzyanov, the self-proclaimed "defence minister" of the Donetsk People's Republic. A day later, radical Ukrainian politician Oleg Liashko posted photographs on his blog of him personally interrogating Kakidzyanov, who had been stripped to his underwear and had his hands tied behind his back. Human Rights Watch castigated official Kiev for making no comment on what it called an "outrageous situation".

On Friday Ukraine will be on high alert as eastern Ukraine celebrates Victory Day, a commemoration of the losses suffered by the Soviet people during the war, which has been turned into something of a national rallying idea by Putin in Russia. In Donetsk region it has added piquancy this year, given the supposed fascist threat from Kiev.

In the village of Ilyicha, a former collective farm named after Vladimir Leninjust outside Konstantinovka, the local head, Irina Bondar, was organising an early celebratory lunch for local war veterans. One 93-year-old veteran, and more than a dozen "war children", sat at a long table laid with cold cuts and bottles of vodka, and were serendaded with wartime songs by local children dressed up in their smartest clothes.

On her way to her lunch, Bondar had encountered a tricky situation with the separatists – early on Thursday morning they decided to build yet another roadblock on the road that runs through her village. Bondar, a jovial matriarch who invariably embraces her interlocutors, hurried to the spot and told them she would have no such thing in the middle of her village.

"We are working people here, everyone works hard, you can't make it harder for them to get to work," she scolded them, and the rebels demurred immediately, moving their checkpoint and their weaponry elsewhere.

Nevertheless, Bondar, like most others in the village, sympathises with the so-called resistance movement. "They are good lads; they are our lads. They are normal people who want to defend us."

Despite Putin's comments, she says the referendum will take place in the village on Sunday. There will be no polling station, due to the threat of "provocations from Kiev", she says. Instead, urns will be carried from house to house. "I am for a united Ukraine, but what has been happening there recently is out of control. I think we would be better off with Russia."

After the singing and the vodka toasts a local nurse, who is the village representative of the opposition, tells the assembled veterans that the region again faces the threat of fascists, and again will win. Everyone stands, and sings rousing victory songs.

Some of the elderly are overjoyed at being the centre of attention, others seem overwhelmed.

Nadezhda Makarova was five years old when Russia began fighting Nazi Germany in 1941. Now almost blind, hardly able to walk, and with shaking hands, the 78-year-old sits through the performances with tears rolling down her cheeks.

"Will there be another war?" she asks repeatedly, every few minutes. "I am scared. On television it's war, war, war. Everyone is talking about war, and I am scared there will be another one. Let God stop it, please, nothing is worse than war."

With Putin's surprise call to postpone their referendum there was relief in the west that Ukraine might return from the brink. But many in the east feel there is now no way back, and it is possible that the anger stirred up here will be very hard to dampen again.


"We are on the brink of an uprising of poor against rich, of chaos, of a terrifying rebellion," says Chertkov, the regional administration head. "America, Russia, Europe, the politicians in Kiev, everyone has tried to play their games here, and they have played so hard that now we are on the brink of catastrophe."
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by chanakyaa »

Putin calls for end to Kiev’s military op, postponing referendum in E. Ukraine
The referendum business is quite interesting, in terms of who wins and looses in the long run. Russia doesn't really benefit from seriously hurting Ukraine. By Ukraine, I mean the Ukrainian population (who don't consider them as Russians). Regardless of how much of Southeast region votes in favor of joining Russia, there will always be Ukraine country, even if it ends up as 1 square kilometer landmass? The more Ukraine hurts, more it becomes a hateful neighbor to Russia. And no one wants or benefits from stressful neighbor (pakis for example). It always ends up benefitting 3rd country at the expense of sour relation between neighbors. 50 years of hate may have helped all other countries except India and Pakistan..but I digress.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by vijaykarthik »

I wonder out aloud. If and when the referendum happens in E Ukraine, what will these people do once the Ukrainian elections come up on May 26th?

a. Will they vote in that elections too? [that will seem backwards and stupid in hindsight?]
b. Will they oppose those elections? Call it unfair and not a total election of all of Ukraine and legally contest it.

In my thoughts, the referendum business is a brilliant strategy from Russia. And also diplomatically ejecting itself away from the referendum and asking the pro-Russians to postpone it, move a few troops away from border etc etc is a classic strategy. I really wonder where Putin gets all these moves from. Seems like a LOT of thought has gone into them. The west media is giving him a lot less credit and making him look like a madcap. But in reality, at least by looking at the moves, only his team seems to do the thinking... and everyone else seems to be looking at the last few moves and hastily moving to cover it while Putin seems to be at least 1 move ahead. If not three.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by vijaykarthik »

NATO's biggest mistake
For 20 years, NATO and European security policy have been guided by four flawed strategic assumptions. First, Western leaders assumed that Russia had become a benign power and that inter-state threats to European security were therefore no longer a concern. Second, because NATO’s core mission -- collective defense -- was no longer a compelling reason to keep the alliance together, leaders argued that NATO needed to go “out of area or out of business.” NATO consequently expanded its membership and took on a new array of global missions. Third, Western leaders assumed that NATO expansion would not provoke a reaction from Russia. NATO’s leaders believed their own rhetoric about the benign nature of NATO expansion, and they assumed Moscow would see it this way as well. Fourth, they believed that the alliance would be successful in carrying out military and stabilization missions in far-off places such as Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya.

In 2014, Western officials are learning about their strategic errors the hard way. They have come to realize that NATO’s collective defense mission in Europe is still vital because Russia is in the business of changing international borders by force, that NATO never had to go “out of area” for a compelling mission, that the Kremlin didn’t see NATO expansion to Russia’s borders as benign, and that NATO missions in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya cost a great deal in lives and money but they only achieved mixed results.

As U.S. and European officials scramble to devise a coherent, credible, effective response to Russian aggression in Ukraine, they must also undertake a fundamental strategic reassessment. Europe still faces inter-state security threats, in the form of Russian aggression. NATO’s core mission -- collective defense -- is still vital. Deterrence and defense are still needed in Europe. And, as in many great-power relationships, the challenge is to deter aggression and reassure allies without provoking escalation.

For U.S. and European leaders -- and for NATO -- it’s back to basics.

OUT OF AREA, OUT OF WHACK

Following the collapse of Soviet power in Eastern Europe in 1989 and the break-up of the Soviet Union itself in 1991, it was natural and inevitable that NATO would change. The alliance had been created to deter -- and, if necessary, defend against -- a Soviet attack on Western Europe. With the Soviet Union gone, the military balance in Europe suddenly and fundamentally shifted. NATO’s raison d’être was called into question.

By the mid-1990s, the conventional wisdom was that NATO must go “out of area or out of business.” This view was promulgated by most (but not all) security policy experts, and it was ultimately embraced by the alliance’s leadership. This led to two main changes in NATO policy.

First, the leadership expanded the alliance from 16 to 28 members, bringing in countries from the former Warsaw Pact and the former Soviet Union, in particular. In 1999, the Czech Republic, Hungary, and Poland formally joined NATO. In 2004, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, and Slovenia joined the alliance. Albania and Croatia became NATO members in 2009.

In the 1990s, some scholars and commentators -- including me -- argued that NATO expansion could be counter-productive because it could trigger a backlash in Russia. NATO expansion could give Russian nationalists and political opportunists yet another weapon to use against pro-Western factions in Russia’s domestic political arena. In the worst-case scenario, embittered nationalists or opportunists could come to power and adopt more aggressive policies toward Europe and the United States. “The emergence of a kinder, gentler Russia is far from certain,” I wrote at the time, “but it is not in the interests of the United States or NATO’s European members to take steps that would make Russian authoritarianism and belligerence more likely.”

U.S. and European leaders preferred to believe that their intentions were benign and that Russia’s leaders would see NATO expansion in that benign light. The alliance’s leaders also believed that their diplomatic overtures to Russia -- such as the creation of a NATO-Russia Permanent Joint Council in 1997 -- would further pacify the Kremlin. That was wishful thinking.

In a recent Washington Post article, Jack F. Matlock, the former U.S. ambassador to Moscow, observed that the effect of NATO actions in the 1990s -- alliance expansion and the bombing of Serbia in 1999 without UN Security Council authorization -- was “devastating.” He observed that in 1991, Russian public opinion polls indicated that approximately 80 percent of Russian citizens had a positive view of the United States; in 1999, nearly the same number had a negative view of the country. In 2000, Vladimir Putin was elected president of the Russian Federation.

The second major change in NATO policy, starting in the 1990s, was the adoption of a new array of global missions to justify NATO’s continued existence. The rationale was that NATO’s European members would have to help Washington with its global concerns to keep the United States committed to Europe.

This strategic reasoning was based on several flawed assumptions. First, the global interests of the United States and Europe were not (and are not) in alignment. Second, Europe had limited power-projection capabilities in the 1990s, and these capabilities declined substantially over time. Third, the far-flung security problems that would be tackled -- Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya -- were exceptionally formidable. Success, which would depend on high levels of political will and material commitments sustained over time, would be difficult to achieve.

As he was about to step down as U.S. Secretary of Defense in June 2011, Robert Gates assessed the track record. In Afghanistan, he said in a 2011 speech, the “mission has exposed significant shortcomings in NATO -- in military capabilities and in political will. Despite more than 2 million troops in uniform -- NOT counting the U.S. military -- NATO has struggled, at times desperately, to sustain a deployment of 25-40,000 troops.” In Libya, he continued, “it has become painfully clear that similar shortcomings -- in capability and will -- have the potential to jeopardize the alliance’s ability to conduct an integrated, effective and sustained air-sea campaign.... [While] every alliance member voted for the Libya mission, less than half have participated at all, and fewer than a third have been willing to participate in the strike mission.”

“Going global” did not make NATO more relevant, effective, or credible. To the contrary, these operations entailed tremendous costs -- in terms of lives, money, political unity, and alliance credibility. These operations also drained European military capabilities that were already weak and are now even more steeply in decline. Expectations have been dashed, and the alliance’s credibility has been damaged.

Unfortunately, this has happened just as security threats in Europe have reemerged, in ways that are now obvious to almost everyone. Ironically, these threats have developed in part because of NATO’s own misguided actions.

GRAVE NEW WORLD

U.S. and European leaders are now grappling with the immediate challenge posed by Russia’s aggression in Ukraine, but they must also undertake a fundamental strategic reassessment.

First, they must recognize that Europe still faces inter-state security threats. For decades, Americans and western Europeans believed that inter-state war in Europe was unthinkable; they were confident in the emergence of a Europe that was “whole, free, and at peace.” They believed that Russia would behave as if it were a member of the NATO-EU club, even though there was no chance that it would be admitted to the club any time soon.

Putin has chosen another path. Russian aggression is real, and it may continue. Putin’s, domestic approval ratings are up, and they may stay up unless economic sanctions change Russian public and elite opinion. Putin is not yet looking for an “off-ramp” to defuse the confrontation. To the contrary, he currently has a domestic political incentive for a sustained confrontation with the West.

As President Toomas Hendrik Ilves of Estonia recently observed: “The fundamental understanding of security in Europe has now collapsed. Everything that has happened since 1989 has been predicted on the fundamental assumption that you don’t change borders by force, and that’s now out the window.” General Philip Breedlove, NATO’s Supreme Allied Commander Europe, put it succinctly, “It’s a paradigm shift.”

Second, U.S. and European leaders will have to devise new security responses to counter Russia’s new, semi-covert forms of military aggression. Russia’s campaigns in Crimea and eastern Ukraine have not involved columns of tanks streaming across borders. Instead, Moscow has skillfully used staged provocations, local supporters, unmarked special forces, cyber-attacks, and massive disinformation campaigns to create instabilities that can be used as pretexts for annexation.

To date, the U.S. and European responses have been very modest and almost entirely traditional in character -- verbal assurances; some small, additional troop rotations in eastern Europe; and some small, additional military exercises. NATO needs to think hard and fast about countering Russia’s new form of warfare, especially for NATO members that have Russian minorities. This will entail substantially enhanced internal security, homeland security, training, intelligence, early warning, cybersecurity, and public diplomacy capacities. These will be the keys to deterrence and defense against destabilization operations.

Third, U.S. and European leaders will have to forge a consensus on broader, long-term responses to Russia. Many Europeans are still in denial, and Europe is therefore divided. Belief systems are notoriously resistant to change, and the appeal of a European security nirvana was especially powerful.

Europe’s paralysis is reinforced by economic vulnerabilities (many European countries depend on Russian energy experts) and other economic and business ties with Russia. As a result, there is a range of opinion in Europe on Russia, and it varies according to geography, of course. Countries that are closer to Russia -- Poland and the Baltic states, in particular -- are afraid of Russia and have called for strong Western responses. Bridging these intra-European differences will not be easy.

To forge a consensus, U.S. and European leaders will have to reduce Europe’s dependence on Russia’s energy exports. These vulnerabilities make it difficult for many western European countries to contemplate strong responses to Russia’s aggression. Russia’s energy leverage makes Russian aggression more likely to continue. Reducing Europe’s energy vulnerabilities and simultaneously undercutting Russia’s energy and economic position will reinforce deterrence and stability in Europe.

Fourth, U.S. and European leaders should also re-double their efforts to complete the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (T-TIP), a new U.S.-EU trade agreement. The initial impetus for T-TIP was to give the U.S. and European economies a boost and strengthen their economic ties in the face of a rising China. Completion of the agreement would now have added benefits -- economic, political, and symbolic -- with respect to Russia. It may be difficult to complete a deal prior to the U.S. elections in November 2014. If that proves to be the case, T-TIP should be a top priority in 2015.

Fifth and last, U.S. and European leaders will of course have to continue to engage Putin and Russia. Currently, it appears that Putin has an expansionist agenda: bringing Russian-speakers into the Russian federation (even if they currently live in contiguous, sovereign states); establishing a Russian sphere of influence in Eastern Europe, the Caucasus, and Central Asia; redrawing international borders where possible; maintaining a state of confrontation with the West, which has strengthened his domestic position; and perhaps breaking up NATO itself. It would be a mistake to underestimate Putin’s aspirations and the nature of the threat. Western leaders will have to determine Putin’s ultimate strategic goals and act accordingly.

Building a Europe that is “whole, free, and at peace” is still an achievable goal. It will require a renewed emphasis on European security, discarding the illusions of the past twenty years, and a clear focus on Europe’s new security challenges.
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