Eastern Europe/Ukraine

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Philip
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

Ethnic cleansing Poroshenko style.Why are the great democrats of the West and EU so silent on the actions of the UKR fascists?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 42562.html
Ukraine crisis: Rebels massacred as new president unleashes military in Donetsk

Portia Walker
Donetsk
Tuesday 27 May 2014

At least 40 pro-Russian separatists have been killed in clashes at Donetsk international airport as the Ukrainian military, under the command of the country’s new president, launched airstrikes on armed rebels who had stormed the terminals.

The Ukrainian government said none of its soldiers was killed in the operation, which began just hours after Petro Poroshenko was elected Ukraine’s new president. “The airport is completely under control,” said Interior Minister Arsen Avakov on Tuesday as gun and artillery fire could still be heard. “The adversary suffered heavy losses. We have no losses.”

The government assault began on Monday morning and continued yesterday. Ukrainian fighter jets and helicopter gunships strafed rebel positions around the main terminals in the fiercest assault since the conflict began in the east of the country two months ago.

Until Mr Poroshenko’s election, the Ukrainian military operation against the separatists who established a pseudo state in Donetsk and Luhansk had been largely confined to skirmishes in satellite cities and the surrounding countryside.

This week’s re-calibration of the violence brings the conflict to the city of Donetsk itself, as the new government appears to be preparing for a showdown with the rebels who seized control here in April. Donetsk was empty yesterday. Shops were closed and many had covered their entrances. Banks were imposing a limit on withdrawals. Schools, universities and courts were also closed.



On the way to the airport, on Kievsky Avenue, a smashed and blood stained army truck lay on its side on the edge of the road. Local residents gave differing accounts at what had happened but their anger was palpable. Just over a mile from the airport, police were blocking the road to the terminals and out of the city. Alongside them armed separatists were constructing more permanent barricades using chain saws to cut down trees lining the street and using sandbags, tyres and barbed wire to block the road.

“We’ve never seen anything like this in Donetsk before,” said Vladimir Olenseivitch, a lawyer, “I thought after the election Poroshenko would pause for a while, but the situation has become worse.”

Medical staff at the Kalinina morgue in Donetsk prepare to attend to the body of a pro-Russian fighter (Getty) Medical staff at the Kalinina morgue in Donetsk prepare to attend to the body of a pro-Russian fighter (Getty)
Mr Poroshenko won 54 per cent of the vote in Sunday’s elections, giving him a comfortable mandate. The burly chocolate manufacturer, 48, has refused to negotiate with the separatists who he describes as terrorists, bandits and pirates.

The mood was subdued at the Government Administration building in Donetsk where the rebels have their improvised headquarters. “We came to vacate the airport with guns, hunting rifles, sticks and with our desire for freedom,” said Alexander Kishiniets, who described himself as the Commissioner of the Committee of People’s Control.

He complained that the separatist arsenal was no match for the Ukrainian army and said they would require external assistance. “We are asking for help from Russia. If not soldiers, at least weapons,” he said.


Russia has repeatedly called for Ukraine to end its military operations in the east. Last month President Putin referred to eastern Ukraine as “new Russia” and has promised to protect Russians in former Soviet Republics. However, he has softened his stance over the past week, saying he would recognise the results of Ukraine’s elections and pulling back some troops from near the border.

The Kremlin said yesterday that Mr Putin had called for an “immediate halt” to the “punitive military operation”.

A Ukrainian helicopter Mi-24 gunship fires its canons against rebels at the main terminal building of Donetsk international airport (Reuters) A Ukrainian helicopter Mi-24 gunship fires its canons against rebels at the main terminal building of Donetsk international airport (Reuters)

Meanwhile, the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) said that a team of its monitors were missing in the Donetsk region. Four men from Turkey, Switzerland, Estonia and Denmark were last seen at a city checkpoint at 6pm on Monday. In April seven international military observers linked to the OSCE were kidnapped by separatists and held for a week.
The chocolate butcher is really trying Russia and Putin's patience.As more civilians are killed in the continuing military attacks by UKR/mercenary forces orchestrated by the Rand Corp. and US advisers,the pressure upon pres. Putin to intervene will be increasing by the hour. One option for Russia is to use its overwhelming air power to decimate the UKR air force by destroying its capability on the ground and attack armoured columns in the east. Short of an open conflict,this would allow Russian grunts to stay within their borders,to be used only in extreme circumstances,for a swift molniya onto Kiev.Why Poroshenko is pursuing the mil. option when Putin has along with western nations brokered a cease-fire is a mystery.In the long run he cannot win.Perhaps he also has a "potency" problem,like Hussein O'Bomber and has to prove his virility by massacring civilians.
Y. Kanan
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Y. Kanan »

Donetsk Separatist: Prepare for 'Several Hundred Thousand Refugees'

Like I predicted a week ago, the rebels are getting badly routed by the Ukrainian military (no doubt beefed up with US arms, mercenaries, drones and satellite recon). As I stated then, Putin must make a choice, and quickly: go to war or lose eastern Ukraine. This is what the Americans would like Russia to do: invade in force so that Europe will be forced to heavily sanction Russia and turn to the US for natural gas. So you would think Putin's first instinct would be to avoid the trap the Americans have set. But not invading is also a very unpleasant outcome. The routing of the separatists would be seen as a humiliating defeat for Russia right on it's own doorstep, and would quickly be followed by full EU & NATO membership for the now reunited Ukraine.

Putin has two really lousy choices: invade and lose the European gas market, or do nothing and suffer yet another humiliating strategic defeat.

I have a growing suspicion the Russians are coming to peace with the latter choice: do nothing. In Putin's cold-blooded calculus, this outcome is still preferable to a costly war with the Ukraine military (which has proved far more potent than anyone expected) and heavy sanctions from the EU. True, this puts NATO and the EU right on Russia's border, but they already are anyway (people are forgetting that the Baltic states already have EU & NATO membership).
Austin
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

Entering into Eastern Ukraine is a very risky strategy not just because of Sanctions etc but it would be drawn into long drawn guerrilla warfare like the one US faced in Iraq and what would be the exit strategy ? The Afghanistan experience showed what should not be done to the Russian at a cost.

Russia got Crimea and that is what it wanted due to Strategic Reason , The Eastern Fight was more to put pressure on Ukraine Government for a Federal Structure.

Ukraine Government has already lost the Hearts and Minds war in East/South Part of Ukraine and once EU AA enters into effect the East/South will face more Economic Hardship as the Industrial Belt would take most hit from this.

As of now EU /Russia expects the OSCE to take the lead for ceasefire and implementation of federal reforms mean while the Refugee should give eyeball in International Press which Interestingly the Western TV Channel has boycotted in its news , should give you an idea how the Free Press works in Free World.
Austin
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

A good read on reality of EU Energy Dependency on Russia.

Russia’s Grip Over EU Energy Unlikely to Change Soon
Y. Kanan
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Y. Kanan »

Yup - this pretty much confirms it: the rebels are quickly disintegrating as they realize Russia has sold them down the river:

Rebels surrendering weapons, angry at Russia abandoning them
Deep strains emerged Thursday in the ranks of Ukraine's pro-Moscow insurgents as dozens turned in their weapons in disgust at Russian inaction and bickering broke out between rebel factions.

In the past two weeks, Ukrainian government troops have halved the amount of territory held by the rebels and have grown better equipped and more confident by the day.

...several dozen militia fighters garrisoned in a university dorm in Donetsk abandoned their weapons and fatigues in their rooms Thursday.

"Russia abandoned us.
The leadership is bickering. They promise us money but don't pay it. What's the point of fighting?" said 29-year old Oleg, a former miner.
Philip
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

At least 30' Ukrainian military killed as militia shell convoy with Grad rockets
Published time: July 11, 2014

Anticipated,mentioned in an earlier post that if the rebels recd. MBRLs,it would change the situ.They already have MANPADs.They have now hit back with renewed vigour.If Chocolate soldier Porshenko thinks that recovering the east will be a stroll in the park,as urged on by his Yanqui advisers like Rand,then he is a choice ass,as the vast majority of the population are against the Kiev junta. This is becoming tougher by the day as the death toll of UKR forces keeps on mounting,from aircraft and helos destroyed to troops on the ground,in this attack alone,more than 90 troops wounded apart from those killed. A major disaster. Pics show armoured vehicles including tanks simply blown apart from the rockets.

http://rt.com/news/172160-east-ukraine-military-killed/

Dozens of Ukraine’s government troops have been reportedly killed after local militia shelled pro-Kiev military forces with Grad rocket launchers. President Poroshenko has vowed “killing hundreds” for each deceased soldier.


Self-defense troops attacked a Ukrainian military unit at around 5:00am near Zelenopolye village in the Lugansk region, not far from the Russian border, Kiev’s officials reported.

A military official described the consequences of what he called “a bloody terrorist act” as “destruction” saying that about 30 were feared killed.

"About 30 servicemen are thought to have been killed in a shelling by militants using Grad multiple rocket launchers at units of the Ukrainian anti-terrorist operation (ATO) forces near the village of Zelenopolye,” Zoryan Shkyryak, an adviser to Interior Minister Arseny Avakov, said at a briefing. “There might be more victims.”

However, the Ministry of Defense press-office later confirmed the deaths of only 19 servicemen, lowering the initial death toll. It also said that 93 soldiers had sustained wounds, while Shkyryak put the number of injured at 100 people.

Self-defense forces have confirmed that they targeted the Ukrainian army convoy with Grad rocket launchers.

“According to our information, the Ukrainian military convoy from Lvov came under fire. The exact number of killed is unknown; there might be two or three dozen killed. The convoy was destroyed,” a member of the opposition told RIA Novosti.

Speaking in front of journalists, the Interior Ministry adviser vowed revenge for the attack, saying that those behind it “will be punished, either eliminated or captured, and they will answer according to the laws of Ukraine."

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko later echoed the retaliation threats, stating that for each of the killed men “militants will pay with dozens and hundreds of theirs [people].”

One of the soldiers’ wives has told the UNIAN news agency that her husband contacted her by phone and said that fighting had started again near Zelenopolye as opposition self-defense troops fired at a military convoy that was transporting servicemen wounded in the morning attack.

The woman, who was not named, told the journalists that pro-government troops have no equipment and ammunition to fire back.

“They really need help and reinforcements,” she told journalists, urging them to pass on the information to Kiev.

Meanwhile, the spokesman for Kiev’s military operation in the east, Vladislav Seleznev, has said that 23 Ukrainian soldiers have died in battle between opposition and government forces in eastern Ukraine in the last 24 hours.

“Twenty-three members of the armed forces of Ukraine and the state border service of Ukraine have been killed, with 93 sustaining injuries. All the wounded are receiving medical treatment," Seleznev posted on his Facebook page.

Seleznev stressed that the death toll figures he shared in his post included the number of soldiers killed on Friday morning.

Confrontations between the two sides in the area close to Russian-Ukrainian border have recently intensified.

“The epicenter of severe confrontation came closer to the state border line,” the Ukrainian State Border control said in a statement on Friday.

In the wake of heavy fighting, Russia has closed three major border crossings: ‘Donetsk’, ‘Gukovo’ and ‘Novoshakhtinsk’ on the Russian-Ukrainian border, according to Vasily Malayev, a spokesman for the Federal Security Service in the Rostov region.

On Thursday, two Ukrainian border control guards were killed and another two were injured near the Dolzhansky border checkpoint.

“This is confirmed information, according to all law enforcement agencies and the Ministry of Defense, and The National Guard, and the border service," the Ukrainian National Guard's information security chief Yury Stets said.

Meanwhile, shelling continues all over the region with Kiev’s troops targeting residential areas.

In the recent attack on Friday, the Ukrainian air force fired rockets at the city of Dzerzhinsk in the Donetsk region and destroyed a cemetery, transformer vault and a gas pipeline.

Watch video footage from the bombed cemetery in Dzerzhinsk

At the same time, opposition in Dzerzhinsk claims it has downed a Ukrainian army jet, according to Itar-Tass.

Another Kiev aircraft was knocked out in the neighboring Lugansk region, the news agency reported.

In the meantime, more civilians are becoming innocent victims of Ukrainian army shelling. In one of the latest tragedies in Lugansk, a woman was killed as a shell landed on her apartment’s balcony.

E. Ukraine's Lugansk: From busy city to ghost town

There are those who have miraculously survived.

RT’s Maria Finoshina met Andrey Girin, who brought his wife to a hospital after their car was fired at.

“I was in the shop and I heard someone scream 'lie down on the ground.' But I yelled that my wife was in the car, so I looked out of the window, saw that she wasn't there and heard her knocking on the shop door,” he said.

The country’s deputy health minister, Vasily Lazoryshynets, said on Thursday that 478 civilians, including seven children, had been killed in Kiev’s military crackdown on the eastern regions of Ukraine – which “is unfortunately greater than the military losses.”

However, the Ukrainian Ministry of Health later reduced the civilian death toll figure, saying that the deputy minister “only provided the latest statistics on the overall mortality level.”
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... eparatists
23 Ukrainian troops killed in clashes with separatists
Highest 24-hour death toll since president ended brief ceasefire includes 19 troops killed in rocket attack near Russian border

The Guardian, Friday 11 July 2014 15.15 BST

Link to video: Ukrainian government promises swift justice for military deaths

Ukraine's military has said 23 servicemen have died in clashes with pro-Russia separatists across the east, a development that threatens to shatter slim western hopes of a truce in the three-month insurgency.

"In the past 24 hours, while performing special assignments in various regions where the active phase of anti-terrorist operations is under way, 23 servicemen from the Ukrainian armed forces and state border service were killed," the military spokesman Vladyslav Seleznyov wrote in a Facebook post.

The official spokesman of Ukraine's intensifying campaign against the rebel movement added that 93 troops had sustained "wounds and contusions of varying severity".

Ukraine's defence ministry said in a separate statement that the toll included 19 troops who were killed early on Friday in a multiple rocket attack staged by insurgents near the Russian border.

In a phone call on Thursday evening, the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, advised the Ukrainian president, Petro Poroshenko, to "maintain a sense of proportion" in his actions against separatists.

Steffen Seibert, a German government spokesman, said: "The chancellor urged President Poroshenko to maintain a sense of proportion in his legitimate actions against the separatists and to protect the civilian population.

"Both agreed that talks of the contact group … are urgently needed now in order to begin the implementation of Poroshenko's peace plan and a mutual ceasefire."

Friday's official death toll is the highest since Poroshenko tore up a brief ceasefire with the rebels on 1 July and relaunched an offensive that managed to dislodge the militias from key eastern strongholds they have controlled for nearly three months.
Y. Kanan
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Y. Kanan »

Philip wrote:At least 30' Ukrainian military killed as militia shell convoy with Grad rockets
[/quote]

Harassment strikes like this, while annoying, are not easily repeated and will not stop the Ukrainian forces from holding territory nor will they dislodge them from the areas they've already taken over. No doubt the Ukrainians will respond with more indiscriminate shelling, which is going to get really nasty when the battle for Donetsk begins. This pisses off the civilians and creates ill will, but isn't going to stop the Ukrainians from taking over.

Even a sudden infusion of heavy weaponry from the Russians may be not enough at this stage. There wouldn't be time to absorb and train on the new weaponry, and not enough rebels willing to fight at this point. If the Russians wanted to guarantee a rebel victory, they should have gotten heavily involved a couple of months ago. The Americans certainly haven't been as half-hearted in their backing of the Ukrainian govt forces.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by RSoami »

Putin is playing for the economy while at the same time earning better relations with Germany. Russia can hardly afford a round of harsh economic sanctions.
Ukraine s goose is cooked already. it cannot do anything about the 40 percent of its Russian speaking population in eastern parts. Come winters and they will be needing Russian gas or enjoying pleasant warm weather in Kiev. Who will be paying for the gas. That too at not so discounted price now. It will be EU and US. So there will be a transfer of wealth from West to Russia. Putin has all the cards in this game.
Ukraine s economy is dependent on Russia. It will take 20 years before it could give anything to the western camp. Russia can and will milk money out of west. And that after it has already acquired and annexed Crimea.
Besides, US by trying to be harsh on Russia in Ukraine is pushing away common peace loving germans. Putin in contrast is more reasonable. He is in touch with Merkel. Taking suggestions from her. Acting on them. US belligerence is driving away its friends in Germany. After all, it will be the germans who will have to pay majorly for the shit in Ukraine.
The german reactions to US spying should be seen in this context. Germany is beginning to get fed up of US unilateralism, spying belligerence and war mongering. It also has vital economic interests in Russia. Its one of the two biggest trading partners of Russia with huge investments.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

First Russian Civilian Casualty from Ukraine Shelling

Ukrainian shell kills one, wounds two in house in Russia’s Donetsk
prahaar
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by prahaar »

Austin wrote:First Russian Civilian Casualty from Ukraine Shelling

Ukrainian shell kills one, wounds two in house in Russia’s Donetsk
Is Amerika too eager to have Russia join the firefight? This seems like deliberate provocation.
Austin
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

The Silence of American Hawks About Kiev’s Atrocities

Stephen F. Cohen

The regime has repeatedly carried out artillery and air attacks on city centers, creating a humanitarian catastrophe—which is all but ignored by the US political-media establishment.
For weeks, the US-backed regime in Kiev has been committing atrocities against its own citizens in southeastern Ukraine, regions heavily populated by Russian-speaking Ukrainians and ethnic Russians. While victimizing a growing number of innocent people, including children, and degrading America’s reputation, these military assaults on cities, captured on video, are generating pressure in Russia on President Vladimir Putin to “save our compatriots.” Both the atrocities and the pressure on Putin have increased even more since July 1, when Kiev, after a brief cease-fire, intensified its artillery and air attacks on eastern cities defenseless against such weapons.

The reaction of the Obama administration—as well as the new cold-war hawks in Congress and in the establishment media—has been twofold: silence interrupted only by occasional statements excusing and thus encouraging more atrocities by Kiev. Very few Americans (notably, the independent scholar Gordon Hahn) have protested this shameful complicity. We may honorably disagree about the causes and resolution of the Ukrainian crisis, the worst US-Russian confrontation in decades, but not about deeds that are rising to the level of war crimes, if they have not already done so.

* * *

In mid-April, the new Kiev government, predominantly western Ukrainian in composition and outlook, declared an “anti-terrorist operation” against a growing political rebellion in the Southeast. At that time, the rebels were mostly mimicking the initial Maidan protests in Kiev in 2013—demonstrating, issuing defiant proclamations, occupying public buildings and erecting defensive barricades—before Maidan turned ragingly violent and, in February, overthrew Ukraine’s corrupt but legitimately elected president, Viktor Yanukovych. (The entire Maidan episode, it will be recalled, had Washington’s enthusiastic political, and perhaps more tangible, support.) Indeed, the precedent for seizing official buildings and demanding the allegiance of local authorities had been set even earlier, in January, in western Ukraine—by pro-Maidan, anti-Yanukovych protesters, some declaring “independence” from his government. Reports suggest that even now some cities in central and western Ukraine, regious almost entirely ignored by international media, are controlled by extreme nationalists, not Kiev.

Considering those preceding events, but above all the country’s profound historical divisions, particularly between its western and eastern regions—ethnic, linguistic, religious, cultural, economic and political—the rebellion in the southeast, centered in the industrial Donbass, was not surprising. Nor were its protests against the unconstitutional way (in effect, a coup) the new government had come to power, the southeast’s sudden loss of effective political representation in the capital and the real prospect of official discrimination. But by declaring an “anti-terrorist operation” against the new protesters, Kiev signaled its intention to “destroy” them, not negotiate with them.

On May 2, in this incendiary atmosphere, a horrific event occurred in the southern city of Odessa, awakening memories of Nazi German extermination squads in Ukraine and other Soviet republics during World War II. An organized pro-Kiev mob chased protesters into a building, set it on fire and tried to block the exits. Some forty people, perhaps many more, perished in the flames or were murdered as they fled the inferno. A still unknown number of other victims were seriously injured.

Members of the infamous Right Sector, a far-right paramilitary organization ideologically aligned with the ultranationalist Svoboda party, itself a constituent part of Kiev’s coalition government, led the mob. Both are frequently characterized by knowledgeable observers as “neo-fascist” movements. (Hateful ethnic chants by the mob were audible, and swastika-like symbols were found on the scorched building.) Kiev alleged that the victims had themselves accidentally started the fire, but eyewitnesses, television footage and social media videos told the true story, as they have about subsequent atrocities.

Instead of interpreting the Odessa massacre as an imperative for restraint, Kiev intensified its “anti-terrorist operation.” Since May, the regime has sent a growing number of armored personnel carriers, tanks, artillery, helicopter gunships and warplanes to southeastern cities, among them, Slovyansk (Slavyansk in Russian), Mariupol, Krasnoarmeisk, Kramatorsk, Donetsk and Luhansk (Lugansk in Russian). When its regular military units and local police forces turned out to be less than effective, willing or loyal, Kiev hastily mobilized Right Sector and other radical nationalist militias responsible for much of the violence at Maidan into a National Guard to accompany regular detachments—partly to reinforce them, partly, it seems, to enforce Kiev’s commands. Zealous, barely trained and drawn mostly from central and western regions, Kiev’s new recruits have reportedly escalated the ethnic warfare and killing of innocent civilians. (Episodes described as “massacres” soon also occurred in Mariupol and Kramatorsk.)

Initially, the “anti-terrorist” campaign was limited primarily, though not only, to rebel checkpoints on the outskirts of cities. Since May, however, Kiev has repeatedly carried out artillery and air attacks on city centers that have struck residential buildings, shopping malls, parks, schools, kindergartens and hospitals, particularly in Slovyansk and Luhansk. More and more urban areas, neighboring towns and even villages now look and sound like war zones, with telltale rubble, destroyed and pockmarked buildings, mangled vehicles, the dead and wounded in streets, wailing mourners and crying children. Conflicting information from Kiev, local resistance leaders and Moscow make it impossible to estimate the number of dead and wounded noncombatants—certainly hundreds. The number continues to grow due also to Kiev’s blockade of cities where essential medicines, food, water, fuel and electricity are scarce, and where wages and pensions are often no longer being paid. The result is an emerging humanitarian catastrophe.

Another effect is clear. Kiev’s “anti-terrorist” tactics have created a reign of terror in the targeted cities. Panicked by shells and mortars exploding on the ground, menacing helicopters and planes flying above and fear of what may come next, families are seeking sanctuary in basements and other darkened shelters. Even The New York Times, which like the mainstream American media generally has deleted the atrocities from its coverage, described survivors in Slovyansk “as if living in the Middle Ages.” Meanwhile, an ever-growing number of refugees, disproportionately women and traumatized children, have been fleeing across the border into Russia. In late June, the UN estimated that as many as 110,000 Ukrainians had already fled to Russia, where authorities say the actual numbers are much larger, and about half that many to other Ukrainian sanctuaries.

It is true, of course, that anti-Kiev rebels in these regions are increasingly well-armed (though lacking the government’s arsenal of heavy and airborne weapons), organized and aggressive, no doubt with some Russian assistance, whether officially sanctioned or not. But calling themselves “self-defense” fighters is not wrong. They did not begin the combat; their land is being invaded and assaulted by a government whose political legitimacy is arguably no greater than their own, two of their large regions having voted overwhelmingly for autonomy referenda; and, unlike actual terrorists, they have not committed acts of war outside their own communities. The French adage suggested by an American observer seems applicable: “This animal is very dangerous. If attacked, it defends itself.”

* * *

Among the crucial questions rarely discussed in the US political-media establishment: What is the role of the “neo-fascist” factor in Kiev’s “anti-terrorist” ideology and military operations? Putin’s position, at least until recently—that the entire Ukrainian government is a “neo-fascist junta”—is incorrect. Many members of the ruling coalition and its parliamentary majority are aspiring European-style democrats or moderate nationalists. This may also be true of Ukraine’s newly elected president, the oligarch Petro Poroshenko, though his increasingly extreme words and deeds since being inaugurated on June 7—he has called resisters in the bombarded cities “gangs of animals”—collide with his conciliatory image drafted by Washington and Brussels. Equally untrue, however, are claims by Kiev’s American apologists, including even some academics and liberal intellectuals, that Ukraine’s neo-fascists—or perhaps quasi-fascists—are merely agitated nationalists, “garden-variety Euro-populists,” a “distraction” or lack enough popular support to be significant.

Independent Western scholars have documented the fascist origins, contemporary ideology and declarative symbols of Svoboda and its fellow-traveling Right Sector. Both movements glorify Ukraine’s murderous Nazi collaborators in World War II as inspirational ancestors. Both, to quote Svoboda’s leader Oleh Tyahnybok, call for an ethnically pure nation purged of the “Moscow-Jewish mafia” and “other scum,” including homosexuals, feminists and political leftists. And both hailed the Odessa massacre. According to the website of Right Sector leader Dmytro Yarosh, it was “another bright day in our national history.” A Svoboda parliamentary deputy added, “Bravo, Odessa…. Let the Devils burn in hell.” If more evidence is needed, in December 2012, the European Parliament decried Svoboda’s “racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views [that] go against the EU’s fundamental values and principles.” In 2013, the World Jewish Congress denounced Svoboda as “neo-Nazi.” Still worse, observers agree that Right Sector is even more extremist.

Nor do electoral results tell the story. Tyahnybok and Yarosh together received less than 2 percent of the June presidential vote, but historians know that in traumatic times, when, to recall Yeats, “the center cannot hold,” small, determined movements can seize the moment, as did Lenin’s Bolsheviks and Hitler’s Nazis. Indeed, Svoboda and Right Sector already command power and influence far exceeding their popular vote. “Moderates” in the US-backed Kiev government, obliged to both movements for their violence-driven ascent to power, and perhaps for their personal safety, rewarded Svoboda and Right Sector with some five to eight (depending on shifting affiliations) top ministry positions, including ones overseeing national security, military, prosecutorial and educational affairs. Still more, according to the research of Pietro Shakarian, a remarkable young graduate student at the University of Michigan, Svoboda was given five governorships, covering about 20 percent of the country. And this does not take into account the role of Right Sector in the “anti-terrorist operation.”

Nor does it consider the political mainstreaming of fascism’s dehumanizing ethos. In December 2012, a Svoboda parliamentary leader anathematized the Ukrainian-born American actress Mila Kunis as “a dirty kike.” Since 2013, pro-Kiev mobs and militias have routinely denigrated ethnic Russians as insects (“Colorado beetles,” whose colors resemble a sacred Russia ornament). On May 9, at the annual commemoration of the Soviet victory over Nazi Germany, the governor of one region praised Hitler for his “slogan of liberating the people” in occupied Ukraine. More recently, the US-picked prime minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, referred to resisters in the Southeast as “subhumans.” His defense minister proposed putting them in “filtration camps,” pending deportation, and raising fears of ethnic cleansing. Yulia Tymoshenko—a former prime minister, titular head of Yatsenyuk’s party and runner-up in the May presidential election—was overheard wishing she could “exterminate them all [Ukrainian Russians] with atomic weapons.” “Sterilization” is among the less apocalyptic official musings on the pursuit of a purified Ukraine.

Confronted with such facts, Kiev’s American apologists have conjured up another rationalization. Any neo-fascists in Ukraine, they assure us, are far less dangerous than Putinism’s “clear aspects of fascism.” The allegation is unworthy of serious analysis: however authoritarian Putin may be, there is nothing authentically fascist in his rulership, policies, state ideology or personal conduct.

Indeed, equating Putin with Hitler, as eminent Americans from Hillary Clinton and Zbigniew Brzezinski to George Will have done, is another example of how our new cold warriors are recklessly damaging US national security in vital areas where Putin’s cooperation is essential. Looking ahead, would-be presidents who make such remarks can hardly expect to be greeted by an open-minded Putin, whose brother died and father was wounded in the Soviet-Nazi war. Moreover, tens of millions of today’s Russians whose family members were killed by actual fascists in that war will regard this defamation of their popular president as sacrilege, as they do the atrocities committed by Kiev.

* * *

And yet, the Obama administration reacts with silence, and worse. Historians will decide what the US government and the “democracy promotion” organizations it funds were doing in Ukraine during the preceding twenty years, but much of Washington’s role in the current crisis has been clear and direct. As the Maidan mass protest against President Yanukovych developed last November-December, Senator John McCain, the high-level State Department policymaker Victoria Nuland and a crew of other US politicians and officials arrived to stand with its leaders, Svoboda’s Tyahnybok in the forefront, and declare, “America is with you!” Nuland was then caught on tape plotting with the American ambassador, Geoffrey Pyatt, to oust Yanukovych’s government and replace him with Yatsenyuk, who soon became, and remains, prime minister.

Meanwhile, President Obama personally warned Yanukovych “not to resort to violence,” as did, repeatedly, Secretary of State John Kerry. But when violent street riots deposed Yanukovych—only hours after a European-brokered, White House–backed compromise that would have left him as president of a reconciliation government until new elections this December, possibly averting the subsequent bloodshed—the administration made a fateful decision. It eagerly embraced the outcome. Obama personally legitimized the coup as a “constitutional process” and invited Yatsenyuk to the White House. The United States has been at least tacitly complicit in what followed, from Putin’s hesitant decision in March to annex Crimea and the rebellion in southeastern Ukraine to the ongoing civil war and Kiev’s innocent victims.

How intimately involved US officials have been in Kiev’s “anti-terrorist operation” is not known, but certainly the administration has not been discreet. Before and after the military campaign began in earnest, CIA director John Brennan and Vice President Joseph Biden (twice) visited Kiev, followed, it is reported, by a continuing flow of “senior US defense officials,” military equipment and financial assistance to the bankrupt Kiev government. Despite this crucial support, the White House has not compelled Kiev to investigate either the Odessa massacre or the fateful sniper killings of scores of Maidan protesters and policemen on February 18–20, which precipitated Yanukovych’s ouster. (The snipers were initially said to be Yanukovych’s, but evidence later appeared pointing to opposition extremists, possibly Right Sector. Unlike Washington, the Council of Europe has been pressuring Kiev to investigate both events.)

As atrocities and humanitarian disaster grow in Ukraine, both Obama and Kerry have all but vanished as statesmen. Except for periodic banalities asserting the virtuous intentions of Washington and Kiev and alleging Putin’s responsibility for the violence, they have left specific responses to lesser US officials. Not surprisingly, all have told the same Manichean story, from the White House to Foggy Bottom. The State Department’s neocon missionary Nuland, who spent several days at Maidan, for example, assured a congressional committee that she had no evidence of fascist-like elements playing any role there. Ambassador Pyatt, who earlier voiced the same opinion about the Odessa massacre, was even more dismissive, telling obliging New Republic editors that the entire question was “laughable.”

Still more shameful, no American official at any level appears to have issued a meaningful statement of sympathy for civilian victims of the Kiev government, not even those in Odessa. Instead, the administration has been unswervingly indifferent. When asked if her superiors had “any concerns” about the casualties of Kiev’s military campaign, State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki has repeatedly answered “no.” Even worse, the German, French and Russian foreign ministers having urged Poroshenko to extend the ceasefire, his decision instead to intensify Kiev’s military campaign was clearly taken with the encouragement or support of the Obama administration.

Indeed, at the UN Security Council on May 2, US Ambassador Samantha Power, referring explicitly to the “counterterrorism initiative” and suspending her revered “Responsibility to Protect” doctrine, gave Kiev’s leaders a US license to kill. Lauding their “remarkable, almost unimaginable, restraint,” as Obama himself did after Odessa, she continued, “Their response is reasonable, it is proportional, and frankly it is what any one of our countries would have done.” (Since then, the administration has blocked Moscow’s appeal for a UN humanitarian corridor between southeastern Ukraine and Russia.)

Contrary to the incessant administration and media demonizing of Putin and his “agents” in Ukraine, the “anti-terrorist operation” can be ended only where it began—in Washington and Kiev. Leaving aside how much power the new president actually has in Kiev (or over Right Sector militias in the field), Poroshenko’s “peace plan” and June 21 cease-fire may have seemed such an opportunity, except for its two core conditions: fighters in the southeast first had to “lay down their arms,” and he alone would decide with whom to negotiate peace. The terms seemed more akin to conditions of surrender, and the real reason Poroshenko unilaterally ended the cease-fire on July 1 and intensified Kiev’s assault on eastern cities, especially on the smaller towns of Slovyansk and Kramatorsk, which their defenders abandoned—to prevent more civilian casualities, they said—on July 5–6.

The Obama administration continues to make the situation worse. Despite opposition by several NATO allies and even American corporate heads, the president and his secretary of state, who has spoken throughout this crisis more like a secretary of war than the nation’s top diplomat, have constantly threatened Russia with harsher economic sanctions unless Putin meets one condition or another, most of them improbable. On June 26, Kerry even demanded (“literally”) that the Russian president “in the next few hours…help disarm” resisters in the Southeast, as though they are not motivated by any of Ukraine’s indigenous conflicts but are merely Putin’s private militias.

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In fact, from the onset of the crisis, the administration’s actual goal has been unclear, and not only to Moscow. Is it a negotiated compromise, which would have to include a Ukraine with a significantly federalized or decentralized state free to maintain longstanding economic relations with Russia and banned from NATO membership? Is it to bring the entire country exclusively into the West, including into NATO? Is it a vendetta against Putin for all the things he purportedly has and has not done over the years? (Some behavior of Obama and Kerry, seemingly intended to demean and humiliate Putin, suggest an element of this.) Or is it to provoke Russia into a war with the United States and NATO in Ukraine?

Inadvertent or not, the latter outcome remains all too possible. After Russia annexed—or “reunified” with—Crimea in March, Putin, not Kiev or Washington, has demonstrated “remarkable restraint.” But events are making it increasingly difficult for him to do so. Almost daily, Russian state media, particularly television, have featured vivid accounts of Kiev’s military assaults on Ukraine’s eastern cities. The result has been, both in elite and public opinion, widespread indignation and mounting perplexity, even anger, over Putin’s failure to intervene militarily.

We may discount the following indictment by an influential ideologist of Russia’s own ultra-nationalists, who have close ties with Ukraine’s “self-defense” commanders: “Putin betrays not just the People’s Republic of Donetsk and the People’s Republic of Lugansk but himself, Russia and all of us.” Do not, however, underestimate the significance of an article in the mainstream pro-Kremlin newspaper Izvestia, which asks, while charging the leadership with “ignoring the cries for help,” “Is Russia abandoning the Donbass?” If so, the author warns, the result will be “Russia’s worst nightmare” and relegate it to “the position of a vanquished country.”

Just as significant are similar exhortations by Gennady Zyuganov, leader of Russia’s Communist Party, the second-largest in the country and in parliament. The party also has substantial influence in the military-security elite and even in the Kremlin. Thus, one of Putin’s own aides has publicly urged him to send fighter planes to impose a “no-fly zone”—an American-led UN action in Qaddafi’s Libya that has not been forgotten or forgiven by the Kremlin—and destroy Kiev’s approaching aircraft and land forces. If that happens, US and NATO forces, now being built up in Eastern Europe, might well also intervene, creating a Cuban missile crisis–like confrontation. As a former Russian foreign minister admired in the West reminds us, there are “hawks on both sides.”

In recent days, Kiev’s stepped-up “punitive” campaign against eastern Ukrainian citizens, shelling of Russia’s own bordering territory and the subjugation of Slovyansk and Kramatorsk have made anger over Putin’s inaction even more vocal in his own establishment. On July 4, the dean of Moscow State University’s School of Television, a semi-official position, even suggested that the Kremlin was part of “a strange conspiracy of silence” with Western governments to conceal the number of Kiev’s innocent victims. He warned that “those who permit murderers to win…automatically have the blood of peaceful citizens on their hands.” And on July 6, the state’s leading television news network demanded that the Kremlin take immediate military action, including imposing a “no-fly zone.”

Little of this is even noted in the United States. In a democratic political system, the establishment media are expected to pierce the official fog of war. In the Ukrainian crisis, however, mainstream American newspapers and television have been almost as slanted and elliptical as White House and State Department statements, obscuring the atrocities, if reporting them at all, and generally relying on information from Washington and Kiev. Why, for example, are not the The New York Times, The Washington Post and major television networks reporting directly from Ukraine’s war-ravaged cities, only from Moscow and Kiev, or at least doing reports based on other foreign media? Most Americans are thereby unknowingly being shamed by the Obama administration’s role. Those who do know but remain silent—in government, think tanks, universities and media—share its complicity.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

prahaar wrote:
Austin wrote:First Russian Civilian Casualty from Ukraine Shelling

Ukrainian shell kills one, wounds two in house in Russia’s Donetsk
Is Amerika too eager to have Russia join the firefight? This seems like deliberate provocation.
Probably Yes , I find Obama Foreign Policy very delusional not just for Ukraine but around the World in major crises , Barring the draw down in Iraq which was planned by GWB though implemented during Obamas time all Obama Foreign Policy Initiative has been Failure in varying in degree.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

Stephen Cohen says NFZ is under discussion for Ukraine Eastern Region , Interesting Conversation.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

Russia invites OSCE monitors to its border with Ukraine to show goodwill - FM

Russia will invite observers of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe to "Donetsk" and "Gukovo" border checkpoints on the Russian-Ukrainian border. This is meant to be a gesture of goodwill, the Russian Foreign Ministry said.

"In view of a sharp deterioration of the situation in the area of Ukraine's law enforcement operation in southeastern Ukraine, the Russian side, in a gesture of goodwill and without waiting for a ceasefire to be installed, is inviting OSCE observers to the border checkpoints "Donetsk" and "Gukovo" on the Russian-Ukrainian border," that's according to the information posted on the Foreign Ministry's website.

"Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov today referred a corresponding letter to the Swiss president, Didier Burkhalter, who is chairman-in-office of the OSCE. Concurrently, Russia is submitting a draft resolution of the organization's Permanent Council to the OSCE on the deployment of observers. We hope this document will be approved shortly," the Russian Foreign Ministry said.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by jimmyray »

Ukraine: Military plane shot down
Separatist rebels in conflict-wracked eastern Ukraine claimed responsibility for downing the Antonov-26, but Ukrainian officials swiftly ruled that out and blamed Russia instead.
Defence minister Valeriy Heletey said the plane was flying at an altitude of about 6,500 meters (21,300 feet), which he said was too high to be reached with the weapons used by the separatists. Rebels are known to have Igla portable surface-to-air missiles, which work up to about 3,500 meters.

Ukraine's security council spokesman Andrei Lysenko said data from the plane's surviving crew suggested the rocket was either a surface-to-air Pantsir missile or a missile fired by a plane from Russia's Millerovo Air Force base.

In London, Charles Heyman, a defence analyst who edits a book called "Armed Forces of the European Union," said the missile was more likely fired by the Ukrainian rebels.

"I doubt the transport plane was flying at 6,500 meters. That doesn't make sense. The higher you fly, the more it costs, and the plane would have had to be pressurized," Heyman said. "It was probably shot down using SAM-6 missiles owned by the rebels, which they have quite a few of."
http://rt.com/news/eastern-ukraine-army-operation-680/
Self-defense forces of the self-proclaimed Lugansk People’s Republic have downed two Ukrainian jets, Aleksey Toporov, press secretary of LPR’s Defense Ministry, told RT. An Su-25 fighter jet was downed near the town of Krasnodon, Toporov said. He said he could not yet give details on the second jet, which he said was downed near the town of Lisichyansk
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Austin »

According to Bloomberg , White House has called meeting of EU Diplomats on Monday and have threatened them to act to sanction Russia with additional 3rd round of sectoral sanctions.

Lavrov statement confirms the same Lavrov: sad to see Obama's call to extend sanctions against Russia

Today is EU meeting and likely additional sanction will be applied.

Obama has made it very personal to sanction Putin in 1st and 2nd round by targetting Putin ...seems like Russia-US relation will be on a down hill till Obama is in power.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Rudradev »

Breaking:The Ukrainians have shot down a Malaysian airliner with 295 passengers aboard.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/world/2 ... story.html



Malaysian passenger plane goes missing over Ukraine
Associated Press July 17, 2014

DIEGO AZUBEL/EPA/File


KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — A Ukrainian official said a passenger plane carrying 295 people was shot down Thursday over a town in the east of the country, and Malaysian Airlines tweeted that it lost contact with one of its flights over Ukrainian airspace.

Ukraine’s president says his country’s armed forces did not shoot at any airborne targets.

President Petro Poroshenko says Thursday ‘‘we do not exclude that this plane was shot down, and we stress that the Armed Forces of Ukraine did not take action against any airborne targets.’’

Poroshenko said ‘‘we are sure that those who are guilty in this tragedy will be held responsible.’’

Anton Gerashenko, an adviser to Ukraine’s interior minister, said on his Facebook page the plane was flying at an altitude of 10,000 meters (33,000 feet). He also said it was hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher, which can fire missiles up to an altitude of 22,000 meters (72,000 feet).

Malaysia Airlines said on its Twitter feed that it ‘‘has lost contact of MH17 from Amsterdam. The last known position was over Ukrainian airspace. More details to follow.’’ The plane’s destination was

President Barack Obama was asking his advisers to keep him updated on reports of the plane plane shot down. But the White House says it can’t confirm the reports.

White House press secretary Josh Earnest told reporters Thursday that Obama spoke to Russian President Vladimir Putin before leaving on a trip to Delaware and New York. But Earnest could not say whether it was before or after Obama was aware of reports that the plane was shot down.

Earnest says Putin requested the call to discuss new sanctions imposed on Russia Wednesday.

It was the second time that a Malaysia Airlines plane had gone missing in less than six months. Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 disappeared in March while en route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing. It has not been found, but the search has been concentrated in the Indian Ocean far west of Australia.

The Donetsk region government said Thursday’s plane crashed near a village called Grabovo, which it said is currently under the control of armed pro-Russian separatists. The region where theflight was lost has seen severe fighting between Ukrainian forces and pro-Russia separatist rebels in recent days.

A launcher similar to the Buk missile system was seen by Associated Press journalists near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne earlier Thursday.

On Wednesday evening, a Ukrainian fighter jet was shot down by an air-to-air missile from a Russian plane, Ukrainian authorities said Thursday, adding to what Kiev says is mounting evidence that Moscow is directly supporting the separatist insurgents in eastern Ukraine. Security Council spokesman Andrei Lysenko said the pilot of the Sukhoi-25 jet hit by the air-to-air missile was forced to bail after his jet was shot down.

Pro-Russia rebels, meanwhile, claimed responsibility for strikes Wednesday on two Ukrainian Sukhoi-25 jets. The Ukrainian Defense Ministry said the second jet was hit by a portable surface-to-air missile, but added the pilot was unscathed and managed to land his plane safely

Moscow denies Western charges that is supporting the separatists or sowing unrest in its neighbor. The Russian Defense Ministry couldn’t be reached for comment Thursday about the Ukrainian jet and Russia’s foreign ministry didn’t respond to multiple requests for comment.

Earlier this week, Ukraine said a military transport plane was shot down Monday by a missile fired from Russian territory.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Mort Walker »

Was it the Ukraine or the Russians or forces loyal to the Russians?
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by nvishal »

Is it that difficult to identify a boeing 777 on a radar?

The place and timing is bizarre
Last edited by nvishal on 17 Jul 2014 21:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Vayutuvan »

On twitter most tweeters are saying that it is either the separatists or the Russian army. If so, Russia and separatists lost a whole lot of sympathy. If not, ukrain should be split in spite of US machinations.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Madhusudhan »

Unlikely to be Russian army since it was well within Ukrainian territory and Buk does not have the range. It's either separatists or Ukraine. Should know quickly hopefully.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Mort Walker »

Ukrainian officials say it was an SA-11 (Buk) missile system that was used to down the plane. Basically, a modified SA-6. MH-17 went down within 30 miles of the border flying west-to-east from AMS-KUL. It could very well have been shot down by the Russians. Russians are suspiciously quiet.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Madhusudhan »

If the same thing happened over an ocean in someplace that is not a conflict zone, we would still be searching for wreckage trying to figure out what happened.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by chaanakya »

Too dangerous to fly on Malaysian Airlines. But flying through insurgents infested area has become a dangerous proposition for all airlines and there needs to be some sort of response to this brutal attack on defenseless passenger aircraft. Whoever have carried out this attack should be punished and swiftly too.

My condolences to the families of the departed ones.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Madhusudhan »

I wish people who do this would get punished, but look up what the US did to the crew of the USS Vincennes that shot down Iran Air 655, killing 290 people, or what the Russians did to the Su-15 pilot & his commander that shot down KAL007, killing 269 people.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

The aircraft was too far from the Russian border for the Buk SAM.It is most likely a tragic mistake by either the rebels or Ukranian govt.

However,what on earth was the aircraft doing flying over a war zone,where aircraft had already been shot down? Gross negligence for the airline to out the passengers at such risk.
Many years ago,when the war in Iraq was at its height,I was flying over Iraqi territory and saw the burning oilfields lighting up the night sky.It crossed my mind that we were flying over a war zone,taking some amount of risk.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/j ... st-ukraine
Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crashes in east Ukraine
Ukrainian separatists deny any involvement after plane said to be carrying 295 people comes down near Russian border
Shaun Walker in Kiev and Tania Branigan in Beijing
theguardian.com, Thursday 17 July 2014
Link to video: Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crashes over Ukraine

A passenger jet has crashed in eastern Ukraine in an area where separatist rebels have been engaging Ukrainian military forces in recent weeks.

Ukrainian official Anton Gerashchenko said 280 passengers and 15 crew were on board.

Dozens of bodies were scattered around the smouldering wreckage of the plane, near the village of Grabovo, about 25 miles from the Russian border, according to a Reuters reporter at the scene.

Local emergency workers said at least 100 bodies had been found so far, and wreckage was scattered across an area nine miles in diameter.

Malaysia Airlines said via its Twitter feed: "Malaysia Airlines has lost contact of MH17 from Amsterdam. The last known position was over Ukrainian airspace. More details to follow."

A source in the Russian aviation industry told Reuters that the plane did not enter Russian airspace when expected and had crashed in eastern Ukraine.
A photo of the crash site near Grabovo, tweeted by Reuters.

Gerashchenko, an adviser to Ukraine's interior minister, wrote on his Facebook page that the plane had crashed in Ukrainian territory after being hit by a missile fired from a Buk launcher. Associated Press said one of its journalists had seen a similar launcher near the town of Snizhne earlier on Thursday.

Leaders of the self-declared Donetsk people's republic denied any involvement, according the Interfax news agency. A member of the republic's security council said the rebels only have weapons able to shoot down a plane at 3,000 metres and blamed Ukrainian military forces for the attack.

Ukraine's president Petro Poroshenko called for the creation of a commission to investigate the accident. "This is the third tragic incident in recent days after Ukrainian military An-26 and Su-25 jets were shot down from Russian territory. We don't rule out that this plane was also shot down, and we stress that the Ukrainian military didn't take any actions to destroy targets in the air," he said.
Smoke reportedly from Malaysian Airlines plane crash in Ukraine Local TV images purporting to show Malaysia passenger airliner MH17 crashing in Ukraine near the Russian border. Photograph: Universal News And Sport (Europe)

In recent days the Ukrainian air force has lost planes in the area after they have been shot down by rebels. Earlier on Thursday, Ukraine accused Russia of downing one of its fighter jets inside Ukrainian territory.

Russia's ambassador to the UN, Vitaly Churkin, rejected the allegation, telling reporters: "We didn't do it."

Sources among the self-declared Donetsk people's republic also denied any link to the downing of the plane and suggested that Ukrainian forces were involved, according to comments carried by Russian news agencies.

The report of the crash comes four months after Malaysia Airlines flight MH370 vanished on a flight from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing with 239 people on board, two-thirds of them Chinese citizens. It has yet to be found despite a massive international search, which is still ongoing, but Malaysia Airlines has said it believes everyone on board died when the plane crashed into the southern Indian Ocean.

The Malaysian prime minister Najib Razak said via Twitter: "I am shocked by reports that an MH plane crashed. We are launching an immediate investigation."

The country's defence minister tweeted that he was "monitoring closely" claims that MH17 had crashed, saying: "No comfirmation [sic] it was shot down! Our military have been instructed 2 get on it!"
Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 plane crash in Ukraine Emergency workers at the crash site. Photograph: Maxim Zmeyev/Reuters

Barack Obama, who has just landed in Delaware, has been briefed about the airliner crash. His spokesman, Josh Earnest, told reporters on board Air Force One that the president had instructed his staff to keep him updated and make contact with senior Ukrainian officials.

The cause of MH370's disappearance remains a mystery, with investigators suggesting the plane was deliberately diverted from its course, but there was no way of knowing whether the pilots were responding to an emergency or whether there was malicious intent.

That aircraft was a Boeing-777 – the same kind of plane as flight MH17.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by SaiK »

It is insanity if IFF systems are not in place on the civilian planes, and the enemy/rebel/inadvertant idiots have it in their systems integrated with it.
It is murder when you can't enable airplanes with dynamic audio/audit feedbacks to ground control online basis.. technology has moved on so much.
GPS tracking must be mandatory to all airlines.
Online updates to federated store is mandatory for all airlines- we have satellite links all over the world.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Vayutuvan »

It is not a question of IFF. IMHO, a message is being sent. A double game being played by infiltrators from one side to the other?
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Sanku »

Perhaps 777 and Malaysian Airlines dont gel ? As simple as that ? A specific design fault of 777 is exposed more often by MAS practises, flying and maintenance.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Shreeman »

Sanku wrote:Perhaps 777 and Malaysian Airlines dont gel ? As simple as that ? A specific design fault of 777 is exposed more often by MAS practises, flying and maintenance.
Let me be the first to start the conspirracythat the plane was shot from the air, not ground. I base this simply on the size of the parts on the ground, and their unburnt condition.

The pilots would have time to may-day. Yet, nothing in the news. Quid?
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Karan M »

Thats what happens when you get a potent system - the Buk but no national radar network/IFF codes to back it up.

I think the Malaysian Air guys were stupid to have their plane fly through that area and the Ukrainians probably let it happen, knowing some cr@p like this would occur with the separatists having already taken potshots and shot down UkAF aircraft. Otherwise how in heck would the Ukrainians so confidently state a Buk missile system targeted the aircraft? They wouldn't dare to do it themselves (perhaps) but knew very well what was happening in that area and what the situation was. Sad situation- so many people lost, may they RIP.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

Russia with its sophisticated air defence system,that too with the Ukraine hotting up with a de-facto civil war going on,would not mistake a large civilian airliner flying over UKR territory and shoot it down at least 50KM from its border. The incident of the KAL flight shot down aeons ago was because it strayed from the usual civilian flight path over Soviet territory when a missile test was going on,allegedly deliberately, so that a US ELINT spy plane flying high above would detect and file the signature emissions from the air defences that lit up when the KAL flight intruded into its airspace.The pilot refused or didn't understand the command to land and the aircraft was shot down just before it exited Soviet airspace.Had the pilots not done so they would've been sent to Siberia for dereliction of duty!

In this case there was no danger from the airliner which appears to have been on the civilian flight path.It could also be a "false flag" incident (as Karan has said) to put the blame on the rebels,perhaps fooling them into believing that the airliner was a military aircraft,if it was the rebels that shot the plane down. Having lost many aircraft and helos to the rebels,this would've been a "dirty tricks" ploy to smear the reputation of the rebels totally.Choosing a Malaysian airliner to make the incident even more controversial after the MH370 mystery. This fact alone throws suspicion on the entire incident.A huge team of US advisers are squatting in Kiev masterminding the Kiev regime's war plans.They could've planned the entire incident. There are also several mercenary units fighting alongside the UKR forces.It could've been one of these units that shot the aircraft down,making it out to be a rebel blunder.The speed with which the "Chocolate soldier" said that it was shot down using a Buk missile without any evidence from the ground is extremely curious.Akin to "the dog that didn't bark in the night".Here the "dog has barked and bitten too"!

Obtaining the black box which is in a war zone right now may prove to be difficult.It will show that happened,but may not show who fired the alleged missile,or if the aircraft was shot down by a fighter (UKR).
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Mort Walker »

That area is along the standard route for going to India and SE Asia. There wasn't any NOTAM issued by either the pro Russian rebels, Ukrainians or Russians indicating military operations in the air space. I don't see how you could call that stupid when it was SOP for all the airlines.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Atri »

Karan M wrote:Thats what happens when you get a potent system - the Buk but no national radar network/IFF codes to back it up.

I think the Malaysian Air guys were stupid to have their plane fly through that area and the Ukrainians probably let it happen, knowing some cr@p like this would occur with the separatists having already taken potshots and shot down UkAF aircraft. Otherwise how in heck would the Ukrainians so confidently state a Buk missile system targeted the aircraft? They wouldn't dare to do it themselves (perhaps) but knew very well what was happening in that area and what the situation was. Sad situation- so many people lost, may they RIP.
There was one pic on twitter showing air india and singapore airlines plane around 25KM away from the crashed plane. so its not just malaysian airlines. passenger flights regularly flew over iraq and afghanistan at the height of war..
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Philip »

Or was this as alleged an assassination attempt upon Putin?

New information from RT reveals that President Valdimir Putin’s plane may have been the target of an attempted assassination! He is doing many things right and standing strong for what is moral in this world. Furthermore, he is going against the grain of western interests,Ukraine,Syria,Iran,BRICS bank,etc., and we all know how they love it!
RT News reports
Malaysian Airlines MH17 plane was travelling almost the same route as Russia’s President Vladimir Putin’s jet shortly before the crash that killed 295, Interfax news agency reports citing sources.“I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft – 15:44 Moscow time,” a source told the news agency on condition of anonymity.

“The contours of the aircrafts are similar, linear dimensions are also very similar, as for the coloring, at a quite remote distance they are almost identical”, the source added. http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/

Is it possible that the Malaysian plane that went down was meant to be his? Did they try to assassinate him? Watch the facts stated in the videos below, because it certainly appears that way!

Check out this breaking video news footage and see for yourself!
RT NEWS LINK: http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/ (Please check out for full details)
Watch this video supposedly of the crash of the flight,where there is an explosion on the ground but absolutely no sign of an aircraft crashing,trailing smoke,etc. in the sky!
While the newly released video report below from DAHBOO77 clearly shows that all kinds of questions are now emerging about the downing of Flight MH-17, this linked story excerpted below from Zero Hedge brings up another pertinent fact that reminds us of our now defunct mainstream media and the criminal US govt on 9/11, the Ukrainian govt knew EXACTLY what happened soon after the crash, prior to any investigation of what REALLY happened.

Adding in the fact that dozens of Malaysian passports were conveniently found at the scene of the crash, we can clearly see an attempted false flag to launch WW3 unfolding.

*(Curious that it was shot down on the same day TWA Flight 800 was shot down in 1996.That too was covered up,allegedly due to a missile test which accidentally brought down the plane)

That didn’t take long for the Ukrainian government to know exactly what happened:

*UKRAINE REBELS SHOT DOWN MALAYSIAN PLANE, GERASHCHENKO SAYS; But
*DONETSK SEPARATISTS SAY NOT INVOLVED IN PLANE CRASH: INTERFAX

Curiously, Anton Gerashchenko, advisor to Ukraine ministry of internal affairs, had a prepared explanation for everything that happened half an hour ago, long before Ukraine even announced it would begin a probe into the flight crash: (See screenshot of his post directly below video! Translated, his words tell us who REALLY brought down this plane as another false flag is now clearly unfolding!)
http://beforeitsnews.com/conspiracy-the ... 64132.html
Last edited by Philip on 18 Jul 2014 02:21, edited 1 time in total.
Atri
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Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:07

Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Post by Atri »

Philip wrote:Or was this as alleged an assassination attempt upon Putin?

New information from RT reveals that President Valdimir Putin’s plane may have been the target of an attempted assassination! He is doing many things right and standing strong for what is moral in this world. Furthermore, he is going against the grain of western interests,Ukraine,Syria,Iran,BRICS bank,etc., and we all know how they love it!
unlikely. one can see all the passenger planes live on internet these days. impossible to mis-identify passenger plane for putin's plane. putin's plane won't show up on the live-update. the fact that mh17 was seen on live air-traffic websites must show to any attacker that it is not putin's plane. a force capable of pulling off this sort of attack will have this much intelligence.
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