Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jul 2014 08:23

What would be the odds that Malaysian Airline would loose two aircraft both 777 types in a period of 6 months , I read their stocks are down 17 % ..quite tragic for the airlines as it is for the people.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jul 2014 08:28

Note how in April US FAA and Europe declared a no fly order over Crimea where there was no fight going on at all , not a single aircraft or helicopter was shot down.

Where they didnt do the same for Ukraine Conflict zone were close to dozen Military Aircraft and Helicopter were shot down by SAM in past two months , and quite a few were transport aircraft flying high and shot down by rebels.

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014 ... sian-crash

In April, the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) declared the troubled Crimean peninsula, southwest of the crash site, a virtual no-fly zone for US airlines and pilots.

A similar no-fly order for European airlines was issued at the time by the European Organisation for the Safety of Air Navigation, the official name of Eurocontrol.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 18 Jul 2014 08:30

Guys, I am with KannanJi and others in that there is nothing much to sweat in this. The ethnic Russians fighting the Ukranian govt brought the plane down. Most likely through a buk surface to air missile system (which they most likely grabbed from the Ukrainian militray who in turn had it when Ukraine was part of former USSR). In fact, hate to compare PutinJi to TSP RAPE, but he gave a TSPsque answer. He did not deny that in fact the ethnic Russian rebels did it, but indirectly said so, by pointing out that had there been no war in Ukraine, this would not have happened

. Just like TSP, when they unleash their pigs on India and create mayhem, they will deny any involvement, and further rub it it by saying if the "core issue" is resolved, such "incidents" won't occur.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 18 Jul 2014 08:31

matrimc wrote:So is it the Ukrain mil or the separatists? Answer to that changes the world opinion drastically oin favor of one or the other (barring the possibility of double games).

The Russian forces are experienced operators of SAM batteries since the early 1960s when they deployed the SA-3. After the Mathias Rust case in 1987 where the fellow landed in Red Square undetected, the Russians improved their air defenses and integrated their systems better. They wouldn't make this sort of mistake. Similarly after the USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian airliner in 1988, the US has become more careful.

As far as I'm concerned, there are only 2 players here. The pro-Russian separatists or the Ukrainians, and all evidence points to the former.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 Jul 2014 08:32

Mort Walker wrote:^^^I don't think so. The 777 has many many hours of operational time on it with many airlines. It's been in service since the 1990s as a reliable long range aircraft.

Well its quite like Mh 370 is it not ? Twice in a year ? Same plane, same airline ? What are the chances of that ?

There has to be a common link, coincidence is improbable.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 18 Jul 2014 08:35

^^^It is bad luck. That is busy airspace used by many airlines going from DEL or BOM to western Europe. I consider it fortunate the idiots didn't shoot down more than one civilian airliner.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 18 Jul 2014 08:38

Mort Walker wrote:^^^It is bad luck. That is busy airspace used by many airlines going from DEL or BOM to western Europe. I consider it fortunate the idiots didn't shoot down more than one civilian airliner.

The probability of bad luck is so low that some systemic issues need to be looked at.

Does MAS have any 777s left ? People should watch out for those.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jul 2014 08:39

matrimc wrote:So is it the Ukrain mil or the separatists? Answer to that changes the world opinion drastically oin favor of one or the other (barring the possibility of double games).

Well no sweating there.

I followed the news since the time the incident took place , CNN went on Air stating Russian Shot it from across the border using BUK.

Later changed the story to the Rebels shot it down from SAM supplied by Russian.

Few minutes later Ukraine said Rebels shot it down and it was not the Ukraine Armed forces.

CNN Now says US Intelligence believe it was shot by SAM and they believe it was not fired from Ukraine side.

Its easy to see who would get the blame even before the investigation starts based on "Intelligence Reports" and "Assets" in the area.

US politician are already blaming Russians and Hillary stating Putin needs to be thought a lesson etc

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 18 Jul 2014 08:42

CRamS wrote:Guys, I am with KannanJi and others in that there is nothing much to sweat in this. The ethnic Russians fighting the Ukranian govt brought the plane down. Most likely through a buk surface to air missile system (which they most likely grabbed from the Ukrainian militray who in turn had it when Ukraine was part of former USSR). In fact, hate to compare PutinJi to TSP RAPE, but he gave a TSPsque answer. He did not deny that in fact the ethnic Russian rebels did it, but indirectly said so, by pointing out that had there been no war in Ukraine, this would not have happened . Just like TSP, when they unleash their pigs on India and create mayhem, they will deny any involvement, and further rub it it by saying if the "core issue" is resolved, such "incidents" won't occur.

There is to sweat in this. If that airspace over western Russia becomes unsafe to fly, it affects India's trade routes to Europe. This needs to be resolved quickly. IMHO, even the TSP RAPE would not shoot down a civilian airliner originating from India during a hot conflict. They would lose sympathy and their blood money so fast, their heads would spin. Also, is NAMO back home in desh yet? He probably went over the same route.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 18 Jul 2014 08:45

If the US was able to track the missile, they should be able to pinpoint the launch site and come right out and make the facts public. Why wait for 'facts' to emerge? Something doesn't add up.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 18 Jul 2014 08:47

^^^Because you would give away your surveillance capability pretty fast.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 18 Jul 2014 08:51

Mort Walker wrote: Also, is NAMO back home in desh yet? He probably went over the same route.

Whoa. He better give a wide berth to any danger zone.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 18 Jul 2014 08:54

Mort Walker wrote:^^^Because you would give away your surveillance capability pretty fast.

Stating you have tracked the missile and even detected lock-on says it all. The cat's out of the bag.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2014 09:01

most likely global hawk drones are in high orbit over eastern ukraine at 60,000ft .

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 18 Jul 2014 09:04

matrimc wrote:So is it the Ukrain mil or the separatists? Answer to that changes the world opinion drastically oin favor of one or the other (barring the possibility of double games).

Only world opinion it changes is the Umrikhan World Opinion and perhaps Times Now World Opinion and NDTV World Opinion.

For the real world opinion - this kind of thing happens and happens too often. Whole countries get denuded of innocents. What to say of a clutch of airliners overflying a conflict zone. One or the other side of militia level guys, handling little understood equipment, facing existential crisis of their own, will become trigger happy at some point.

Not careful around with fire will get somebody burnt.

negi · Post by **negi** » 18 Jul 2014 09:11

Buk class system in hands of rebels makes little sense at this point in time unless Russians like TSP slipped in their regulars amidst the rebels with sophisticated weapons.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 18 Jul 2014 09:13

ravi_g,

Sorry, but $300 million airliners are not shot out of the sky that often. It isn't a clutch of airliners flying over eastern Ukraine before this incident, it was probably several hundred every day and it wasn't a conflict zone until today. Would you have the same callous attitude if it was a flight that originated or on its way to India?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2014 09:17

negi wrote:Buk class system in hands of rebels makes little sense at this point in time unless Russians like TSP slipped in their regulars amidst the rebels with sophisticated weapons.

the donetsk separatists are claiming they do not have AA weapons beyond a ceiling of 4000m which is about the ceiling of the Igla family.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 18 Jul 2014 09:20

Amerikhans inside Ukraine also make little sense at any point.

................................

Mort Walker ji, no if it is carrying Indians I would not have that callous an attitude. That is the whole point. I am not here to save the world like the Amerikhans and Times Now. This whole conflict started because of the urge to save the world.

The cost of the airliner is besides the point. The warnings were in place - formal & informal - by friends and foes. This was sufficient warning.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jul 2014 09:27

It could be a covert op went wrong. Atleast two BRICS leaders planes overflew Ukraine.

habal · Post by **habal** » 18 Jul 2014 09:28

Considering reports that Putin's IL-96 with 4 engines was in the same place around the same time, returning from BRICS summit and instead the malaysian 4 engined 747 was mistakenly targeted.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 18 Jul 2014 09:30

CRamS wrote:Guys, I am with KannanJi and others in that there is nothing much to sweat in this. The ethnic Russians fighting the Ukranian govt brought the plane down. Most likely through a buk surface to air missile system (which they most likely grabbed from the Ukrainian militray who in turn had it when Ukraine was part of former USSR). In fact, hate to compare PutinJi to TSP RAPE, but he gave a TSPsque answer. He did not deny that in fact the ethnic Russian rebels did it, but indirectly said so, by pointing out that had there been no war in Ukraine, this would not have happened . Just like TSP, when they unleash their pigs on India and create mayhem, they will deny any involvement, and further rub it it by saying if the "core issue" is resolved, such "incidents" won't occur.

And what did the Americans say that can be taken as the unadulterated truth?

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 18 Jul 2014 09:31

habal ji its a 777 with 2 massive engines.

.................

I have been trying to find since early morning the number of Amerikhans/Brits on board. Any info?

habal · Post by **habal** » 18 Jul 2014 09:34

Americans are now desperate, and they can stoop to any depth to destroy BRICS, they can not bear to see the mantle of global leadership pass away from their hands and will be very dangerous in short term. Sabotage, assasinations, plane crashes .. everything will come into play.

Modi should restrain from foreign travel as far as possible considering they will be targeting BRICS members and core group.

ravi_g, yes sorry, it's a 777 and not a 747.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 18 Jul 2014 09:51

Austin wrote:US politician are already blaming Russians and Hillary stating Putin needs to be thought a lesson etc

If Billary thinks that and wants to follow through as POTUS, she has to get elected first, no? The real million (er 100 billion) dollah question is would Americans want to foot the bill or gove Billary the boot. I think the latter. Money is a scarce resource in US, especially now.

habal · Post by **habal** » 18 Jul 2014 10:01

Modi was also on same flight path, just an hour later

http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/pm ... 48249.html

while Putin was just 25 kms away from MH17.

http://inserbia.info/today/2014/07/mh17 ... et-source/

sooraj · Post by **sooraj** » 18 Jul 2014 10:02

PM Modi's flight was on same path as MH17

Even as the world struggles to come to terms with the shooting down of a Malaysia Airlines plane over Ukraine, it has come to light that Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi was on the same flight path as the MH17 Boeing 777.
A report in The Hindu newspaper claimed that Prime Minister Modi's flight back to India was rerouted after the incident, in which 298 people died.
The flight had taken off from Frankfurt, Germany, about two hours before the Malaysian airliner was hit was a surface-to-air missile.
According to the report, while the Indian PM faced no danger his plane would have flown over the same area had the crash not taken place.
The Malaysian airliner crashed at Torez, near Shakhtersk, some 40 kilometres from the Russian border in Ukraine after being hit by a missile, as concluded by the US. The incident happened at 13:20 hrs GMT.
The Air India plane carrying PM Modi would have flown over the same area about an hour later had it continued on the same flight path, as the flight had taken off from Frankfurt at 11:22 GMT.

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 18 Jul 2014 10:09

Time our PM gets a permanent plane with all security features including anti SAM systems. Dunno if this is already in place?

habal · Post by **habal** » 18 Jul 2014 10:11

take a look at that second link in my above post. Putin's IL 76 has same marking as Malaysian MH 17. Maybe the 1L76 carrying Putin deployed safety systems and the incoming missile was diverted and hit MH17 some 25 kms away. In any case it's too close.

Red, Blue, White

Putin's plane

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jul 2014 10:20

Mort Walker wrote:
Sorry, but $300 million airliners are not shot out of the sky that often. It isn't a clutch of airliners flying over eastern Ukraine before this incident, it was probably several hundred every day and it wasn't a conflict zone until today. Would you have the same callous attitude if it was a flight that originated or on its way to India?

Well like I provided evidence Crimea and Black Sea flights are already banned even though no fight but we have fight going for past 2 months in that area and many aircraft shot down by rebels and yet civil flight still go on.

IF Ukraine did not control their own airspace they should have banned civil flights.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jul 2014 10:25

Captain Sullenberger ‘Big Question’ Is Why Plane Was Flying Over War Zone

DANVILLE (CBS SF) – During a phone interview with CBS News Thursday morning, Captain Capt. Chesley “Sully” Sullenberger was questioned why Malaysia Airlines flight 17 would be flying over Ukraine’s border with Russia despite ongoing political unrest in the area.

Sullenberger, the veteran of the 2009 Miracle on the Hudson landing, is an aviation expert for CBS News, and was asked by Anchor Scott Pelley why a commercial plane would be flying over an area where two aircraft have been shot down just this week.

“That is one of the big questions right now,” said Sully. “The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration has barred U.S. Airlines from flying over this area for some time.”

“It’s up to each individual nation, each individual airline how much risk they are going to accept,” he continued.

The Danville resident said that, if air traffic control personnel were using both primary and secondary radar, it’s possible that an image of a missile could have been captured on screen, if in fact that is what took down the plane.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 18 Jul 2014 10:36

habal ji there would hardly be any system capable of targeting based on color patterns on the fuselage. Nor would there be any Counter Measure against SAMs that would utilize the color patterns as a way of countering a SAM.

You really want to think conspiracy the following should help:
Jamming of normal identification signals is possible, spoofing signals is also possible, passenger nationality is important and should be compared to the normal traffic in this route.

Personally I think there is no need for CTs even though the number of possibilities is too large. The clarity is that it is about the great power game.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 18 Jul 2014 10:39

habal: You are saying the colors can be spotted from ground when the plane is at cruising altitude? Telescope or binocs?

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 18 Jul 2014 10:53

I think the TV was showing a massive explosion (fuel!?) when the aircraft hit the ground. Not when it was up in the air still. Don't know what to make of it.

member_24684 · Post by **member_24684** » 18 Jul 2014 11:04

Sri wrote:Time our PM gets a permanent plane with all security features including anti SAM systems. Dunno if this is already in place?

I think it's having ECM suites and EMP Shields only

don't know about it's jammer systems

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jul 2014 11:06

I think US is doing a great disservice to the investigation even before it has formally started.

It has already stated that plane went down due to Explosion and that Ukraine did not have Air Defence in that area.

It like giving Clean Chit to the Ukrainians even before any objective/impartial investigation has started.

If Russia is being accused as supporting the Separatist, US can hardy be called an impartial observer here , Supporting Ukranians from the time the coup took place.

Its better to let the investigation take place determine why it crashed , who was responsible and then make responsible statements.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Jul 2014 11:09

ramana wrote:It could be a covert op went wrong. Atleast two BRICS leaders planes overflew Ukraine.

Including Modi's

There was also an Air India 787 and a Singapore airlines flight within 25 Kms of the downed airliner at the time it was downed.

Apparently there was / is a NOTAM in place not to fly below 30,000 or 32,000 ft in that zone. The Malaysian flight was above that height and so it was theoretically clear.

The chappies who used the BUK knew full well that it was not an AN 26 which cannot fly that high or that fast.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Jul 2014 11:22

it would have been a coup of great proportion if they had bagged Putin, and then put the blame on the separatists. much cluck clucking of tongues that he got burned by the demons he kept.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 18 Jul 2014 11:38

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ma ... ng-3877127

Malaysia Airlines crash: Watch chilling video showing 'rebels' appearing to celebrate downing of Flight MH17

This chilling video posted on the social media account of rebel commander Igor Strelkov's appears to show three men celebrating the downing of Flight MH17.

In the video, posted on the vk.com website and titled 'In Tores (sic)downed plane,' one man films a plume of smoke emerging from the horizon behind some houses and talks to his companions.

Flight MH17 was previously said by eyewitnesses to have "exploded" over Eastern Ukraine, after it was reportedly shot down by a ground-to-air missile.

The passenger jet was carrying 295 people from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur when it crashed near the village of Grabovo.

In this video, the first man is heard to say: "Just now the plane was hit."

Second man, in happy voice: "All over, it is already over!First man: it is going down now, somewhere in Progress area."

Second man: "I is over, it is over!First man: We are out now, watching - look at those black spots, these are the parts, flying, and it was a blast.

Third man: "Yes I see."

First man: "Look, look, black smoke, right behind Terrikon, where Progress is."

VIEW GALLERY
Third man: "It is now when real work starts."

Second man: "F* plane!"

First man: "Look, look at the smoke!"

Third man: "That was a blast."

First man: "Call him now!"

Second man: "They got it, they hit it! They shoot and hit it!"

Third man, laughing: "It was worth bringing this thing, wasn't it?"

Ukrainian officials say they believe all 280 passengers and 15 crew members died in the crash, which has been blamed on separatist rebels.

However, no group has yet admitted responsibility for bringing the plane down.

Those on board included six British citizens, 154 Dutch passengers, 27 Australians, 23 Malaysians, 11 Indonesians, four from Germany, four from Belgium, three from the Philippines, and one from Canada.

The rest of the passengers have yet to be identified. All 15 crew members were Malaysian.

Follow the latest news on the MH17 crash and investigation here.

Eyewitnesses have spoken of seeing the passenger jet crash , and the devastating aftermath.

Locals told journalist Noah Sneider "everything exploded in the air, fell in pieces, both bodies and (the) plane itself. People thought they were being bombed."

One witness, who gave his name only as Vladimir, said: "I was working in the field on my tractor when I heard the sound of a plane and then a bang and shots. Then I saw the plane hit the ground and break in two. There was thick black smoke."

A separatist rebel from nearby Krasnyi Luch who gave his name only as Sergei said: "From my balcony I saw a plane begin to descend from a great height and then heard two explosions."

He denied the rebels had shot the plane down.

"This could happen only if it was a fighter jet or a surface-to-air missile (that shot it down)," he told Reuters, saying the rebels did not have weapons capable of shooting shoot down a plane at such a height.

An emergency services rescue worker at the scene told how at least 100 bodies have been found at the site so far, and that debris from the wreckage is spread across an area up to about 15km in diameter.

Daily Mirror

Broken pieces of the wings were marked with blue and red paint - the same colours as the emblem of Malaysia Airlines.

New York Times journalist Sabrina Tavernise said she had come across a scene of "almost unspeakable horror", with many bodies found still belted into their plane seats.

Malaysia Airlines said air traffic controllers lost contact with flight MH17 at 1415 GMT as it flew towards the Russian border. Flight tracking data indicated it was at its cruising altitude of 33,000 feet when it disappeared.

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said tonight: "MH-17 is not an incident or catastrophe, it is a terrorist attack."

The disaster comes just four months after the disappearance of Malaysia Airlines flight MH370, which vanished without trace as it flew from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing.

2/3 videos in there, that are getting repeat telecast on Indian MSM.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jul 2014 11:40

Singha wrote:it would have been a coup of great proportion if they had bagged Putin, and then put the blame on the separatists. much cluck clucking of tongues that he got burned by the demons he kept.

IF that had happened , Russia would have thought it would be a Western plot to kill Putin and we would have a cuban missile like crisis at hand.

There is definately a screw up by either the Seps or Ukraine hard to say in Fog of War who did this and if you dont want to go by MSM.