Eastern Europe/Ukraine

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Yogi_G
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Yogi_G » 18 Jul 2014 11:42

As someone mentioned earlier, the world is a pretty scary place now with all the events happening. The only common point in all these conflicts and fears is the US of A. Times now beaming some other channel which seems hell bent on blaming Putin. None of these fools realize that Putin is far far far more intelligent and cojone-laden than any of the westerners. the real mahdi is Putin, he is the Steve Jobs of geopolitics.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby vijaykarthik » 18 Jul 2014 11:45

Philip wrote:Russia with its sophisticated air defence system,that too with the Ukraine hotting up with a de-facto civil war going on,would not mistake a large civilian airliner flying over UKR territory and shoot it down at least 50KM from its border. The incident of the KAL flight shot down aeons ago was because it strayed from the usual civilian flight path over Soviet territory when a missile test was going on,allegedly deliberately, so that a US ELINT spy plane flying high above would detect and file the signature emissions from the air defences that lit up when the KAL flight intruded into its airspace.The pilot refused or didn't understand the command to land and the aircraft was shot down just before it exited Soviet airspace.Had the pilots not done so they would've been sent to Siberia for dereliction of duty!

In this case there was no danger from the airliner which appears to have been on the civilian flight path.It could also be a "false flag" incident (as Karan has said) to put the blame on the rebels,perhaps fooling them into believing that the airliner was a military aircraft,if it was the rebels that shot the plane down. Having lost many aircraft and helos to the rebels,this would've been a "dirty tricks" ploy to smear the reputation of the rebels totally.Choosing a Malaysian airliner to make the incident even more controversial after the MH370 mystery. This fact alone throws suspicion on the entire incident.A huge team of US advisers are squatting in Kiev masterminding the Kiev regime's war plans.They could've planned the entire incident. There are also several mercenary units fighting alongside the UKR forces.It could've been one of these units that shot the aircraft down,making it out to be a rebel blunder.The speed with which the "Chocolate soldier" said that it was shot down using a Buk missile without any evidence from the ground is extremely curious.Akin to "the dog that didn't bark in the night".Here the "dog has barked and bitten too"!

Obtaining the black box which is in a war zone right now may prove to be difficult.It will show that happened,but may not show who fired the alleged missile,or if the aircraft was shot down by a fighter (UKR).


Am reminded of the joke that used to travel on the net earlier: Musharraf calling GW Bush early morning and offering his sympathies for the WTC blast and Bush sleepily asking him what? and Musharraf blurts out --well, wait, what time is it in the US currently?

It does look like a Uk false flag? However, its possible that the pro-Russian [separatists] accidentally did this too? They sure did capture a few SA-11 sysytems from the Uk side, if I am not wrong. But I still cant figure. How can they aim at a civvy flight? that seems way beyond strange!

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Austin » 18 Jul 2014 11:49

Yogi_G wrote:As someone mentioned earlier, the world is a pretty scary place now with all the events happening. The only common point in all these conflicts and fears is the US of A. Times now beaming some other channel which seems hell bent on blaming Putin. None of these fools realize that Putin is far far far more intelligent and cojone-laden than any of the westerners. the real mahdi is Putin, he is the Steve Jobs of geopolitics.


The Western Media has been blaming Putin from the time Sochi Olympics has started rather much before that , To the Gay Right laws enacted which almost ruined the Sochi Olympics , To Syria to Ukraine and now the Malaysian aircraft.

He is the favorite scape goat of MSM in the West ......but at home he is very popular for what he does so it really does not matter to him as he says he is taking care of Russias interest just like US or other countries do for their own sake.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Philip » 18 Jul 2014 12:04

25KM in the air with aircraft flying at 600+ kts is a hairs breadth away.
How did Joe Biden without any info from the black boxes,evidence from the ground,air traffic control,whatever,etc. say so convincingly that the aircraft was "blown to pieces"? Was he in on the plot? What is his son actually doing in Kiev?

This was a splendid opportunity to assassinate Putin and blame the "fog of war" if it had happened.Unfortunately,the MH-17 flight bought the missile. The Buk missiles too aren't known to be in the inventory of the eastern republicans,who have been using Manpads thus far very successfully. Without a sophisticated air defence system able to discriminate between civili and and military aircraft,it would be ludicrous for them to use such missiles even if they had them for obvious reasons.

There is strength in the argument that the acceleration of the conflict in the east is the key,despite the huge attempts by Russia and some EU nations to bring about a ceasefire,rejected by the kiev clique.They are being advised by the US's Rand Corp.,Blackwater (now under a new name) mercenaries and host of CIA and US advisers squatting in Kiev.Remember that Biden's son is on the board of a UKR pvt. energy co.,its largest gas producer!

Russia has also rejected Kiev's absurd allegations that it shot down one of its SU-25s.
http://rt.com/news/

Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash: The battle for control of the skies intensified after Ukraine ceasefire broke down
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 13444.html

As the weeks have passed after a ceasefire collapsed and the Ukrainian government resumed its anti-separatist offensive with renewed strength, fighting has gone in fits and starts. But the targets have got larger, attacks more dramatic, and the weaponry more sophisticated.

A few hours before news of the downed Malaysian airliner broke, Ukrainian officials had blamed the Russian air force for shooting down one of their jets a day earlier. It wasn’t the first attack on an aviation target: in mid-June, separatists shot down a Ukrainian military transport plane as it came in to land in the eastern city of Luhansk, killing all 49 military personnel on board.

At the time, it was the deadliest incident in a conflict which started slipping into full-scale civil war in February, when insurgents seized government buildings in the industrial eastern heartland, trying to force regions of eastern Ukraine to break away.

Their eventual goal is to join Russia, and the Kremlin stands accused of aiding the rebels. But leaders from the US and EU were determined to try to broker a ceasefire.

For a few days, it looked like the truce might hold, but on 24 June, a military helicopter was shot down in the east. Still, Ukraine’s leaders persevered with the peace plan, but in early July it crumbled altogether with at least nine civilians killed. Both sides blamed each other – the fighting resumed with increased ferocity.

The Ukrainian military made the first serious gains, with the pro-Russian rebels losing much of the ground in the east and driven from their stronghold at Slovyansk. The insurgents have lost at least half of their territory since the beginning of July.

But many have retreated and regrouped at Luhansk and in Donetsk, the city of one million people close to the site of the crash. The rebels are reported to be changing their tactics, sending relatives away from the cities and digging in for a prolonged urban guerilla warfare.

“To respond to this phase... we evidently must change tactics,” Valeriy Chaly, deputy head of the presidential administration, told the Associated Press news agency.

Taken from an amateur video, smoke rises from a fireball seen in the distance shortly after a Malaysia Airlines passenger plane crash Taken from an amateur video, smoke rises from a fireball seen in the distance shortly after a Malaysia Airlines passenger plane crash (AP)

Territory is frequently changing hands however as the balance of power shifts, and the rebels have maintained the ability to hit Ukrainian government forces with deadly attacks. Last week, 19 soldiers were killed in a hail of missiles. After renewed accusations that Russia was supplying sophisticated weapons including tanks and multiple rocket launchers, the Ukrainian military launched a round of air strikes on rebel positions near the border with Russia.

They have also targeted convoys coming from the border, desperate to disrupt the supply lines.

As the Ukrainian military increased its onslaught, patience in Moscow appeared to be wearing thin. When news of the first Russian casualty broke last week – a man was killed by a shell coming over the border – the Kremlin stepped up the rhetoric, with promises of “irreversible consequences”.


Sanctions from the US and EU appear to have had little impact. The US has shown a willingness to provide the Ukrainian authorities with non-lethal military assistance, but if the next phase of the fighting does enter a guerilla war stage, the government is ill-equipped to counter it.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Austin » 18 Jul 2014 12:27

via BBC

08:28:

Russian President Vladimir Putin called for an urgent resolution to the Ukraine crisis as he expressed condolences by telephone to Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte, the Kremlin said in a statement. "The head of Russia stressed that the tragedy once again highlighted the need for an urgent peaceful settlement of the most acute crisis in Ukraine and noted there is a need for a thorough and objective investigation of the air crash," the statement said.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Austin » 18 Jul 2014 12:29

How did Joe Biden without any info from the black boxes,evidence from the ground,air traffic control,whatever,etc. say so convincingly that the aircraft was "blown to pieces"? Was he in on the plot? What is his son actually doing in Kiev?


Coz he is Joe Biden he knows every thing :wink:

Wait for 2-3 more days and we will have full information from US "Sources" and "Assets" how Ukr Seps shot it down and how Russia aided it , so there is no need for formal inquiry

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby prahaar » 18 Jul 2014 13:54

Austin wrote:
How did Joe Biden without any info from the black boxes,evidence from the ground,air traffic control,whatever,etc. say so convincingly that the aircraft was "blown to pieces"? Was he in on the plot? What is his son actually doing in Kiev?


Coz he is Joe Biden he knows every thing :wink:

Wait for 2-3 more days and we will have full information from US "Sources" and "Assets" how Ukr Seps shot it down and how Russia aided it , so there is no need for formal inquiry


I was watching an American documentary about Putin's ascent to power in Russia, in that it slyly indicated that a terrorist attack attributed to Chechen terrorists was the handiwork of Putin. Reminded me about the spin CNN was putting for the 26/11 attacks. For US, there is no concept of right and wrong, everything is always interpreted in a way that is beneficial for the Presidents political fortunes.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Manish_Sharma » 18 Jul 2014 14:36

Philip wrote:25KM in the air with aircraft flying at 600+ kts is a hairs breadth away.
How did Joe Biden without any info from the black boxes,evidence from the ground,air traffic control,whatever,etc. say so convincingly that the aircraft was "blown to pieces"? Was he in on the plot? What is his son actually doing in Kiev?

This was a splendid opportunity to assassinate Putin and blame the "fog of war" if it had happened.Unfortunately,the MH-17 flight bought the missile.


Probably NaMo was the target:

So now AAJ TAK should be under "closely watched" list, as NaMo left for brazil, the main headline they kept showing whole day was "Rajnath No.2 in the Govt....."

https://www.facebook.com/drsubramanianswamy/photos/a.118146701658320.18858.107229389416718/440305032775817/?type=1&theater
Dr. Subramanian Swamy

A very shocking incident took place yesterday when a Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 was shot down over Ukraine. However, the incident gets shrouded in thick conspiracy once we know that Modi's flight from Frankfurt was barely an hour behind the ill fated plane on the exact same route!

Modi's flight had taken off well before the incident and had the Ukrainians delayed their aggressive action, it could've been a different flight and a different story. His flight was rerouted only after MH17 was shot down with a surface to air missile.

It's not a secret that India has many enemies both inside and outside.
The recent BRICS summit, although underplayed by our media, can prove to be a landmark in the international geopolitics by challenging the hegemony of certain countries in the world economy.

The OIC has also been miffed over India's supportive stance over Israel. Naming any particular state will not be prudent over a perceived conspiracy. Why, even the anti-national lobbies inside our nation have strong connections with various hostile forces outside. people who've been left insecure about their future since the advent of BJP govt.

Reasons could be many.. known or lesser known and though Ukraine is not a hostile nation, the possibility of a sabotage against India can't be ruled out - must not be ruled out.

It's time our security agencies took a serious look over these troubled waters and ensure no such incident becomes an excuse of catastrophe for our nation.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Raja » 18 Jul 2014 14:56

I wonder if some of you conspiracy theorists and Russoholics would accept that Pro-Russian rebels blew off the plane even if Putin aka "God himsellf" admitted it? We will hopefully know more as this thing unfolds. But, if I were one of you "strategist thinkers" I would keep a wide opening for backtracking...

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby A_Gupta » 18 Jul 2014 15:32

European and Ukrainian air traffic controllers had continued to route civil flights over the contested area even as the fighting worsened — and even as flights directed by Russian air traffic controllers had apparently started to avoid it.


This from the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/world ... raine.html

PS: this too:
oth Korean Air Lines and Asiana Airlines have confirmed that they have not flown planes through Ukrainian airspace since March 3.

“We detoured our flight because of political instability there,” said Lee Hyo-min, a spokeswoman at Asiana, which had been flying a cargo plane through Ukrainian airspace once a week from Brussels to Incheon, South Korea, until that point.

Korean Air Lines had been sending 42 passenger and cargo flights per month through Ukrainian airspace, but those flights had been rerouted, beginning on March 3, company officials said.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Singha » 18 Jul 2014 15:59

Kiev (Ukraine): Emergency workers, police officers and even off-duty coal miners - dressed in overalls and covered in soot - searched Friday through wreckage and bodies scattered over a wide stretch of Ukrainian farmland after a Malaysian jetliner flying high above Ukraine's battlefield was shot down from the sky, killing 298 people.

Separatist rebels who control the area where the plane went down said they had recovered most of the plane's black boxes and were considering what to do with them. Their statement had profound implications for the integrity of the plane crash investigation.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby A_Gupta » 18 Jul 2014 16:04

For the record: I strongly oppose the use of air power by a government against its own people. I believe that in India it has been debated, but air power has not been used to strike Indian citizens who are rebels.

Ultimately, the shooting down of aircraft can be traced to this ugliness of the Ukraine civil war - no holds barred.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby RSoami » 18 Jul 2014 16:41

Raja wrote:I wonder if some of you conspiracy theorists and Russoholics would accept that Pro-Russian rebels blew off the plane even if Putin aka "God himsellf" admitted it? We will hopefully know more as this thing unfolds. But, if I were one of you "strategist thinkers" I would keep a wide opening for backtracking...


To say that there must be a probe, is as wide an opening for `backtracking` as any. To say that Russians or Russian speaking people fighting against the Ukrainian govt downed the plane with conviction like the US & A leaves no opening for backtracking. But there is no need to backtrack. Amreeka is always correct anyway. :roll:

Angela Merkel is calling for truce in Ukraine. Also for enquiry into the crash. Something that is unlikely to please Americans or brainwashed Desis living in America. Time to demonise Germany and Merkel too ?!

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/ ... 1920140718

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Mort Walker » 18 Jul 2014 17:26

There is no conspiracy here. Airlines fly the shortest possible route and if there wasn't any restriction over Ukraine by ICAO or EU civil aviation, then the airspace is good. The only restriction was below 30K feet.

Every time we have to fly over AfPak airspace also gives me the willies because the jihadis are capable of doing the same thing like what happened in eastern Ukraine. In some ways we should be thankful that TSP controls military assets in the region and even they know better.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Austin » 18 Jul 2014 17:53

How many fighter/helicopter/transport aircraft have the Jihadi shot in AF-Pak versus how many were shot down in Ukraine ?

I can recollect atleast 3 huge transport aircraft , number of fighter and helicopter shot by Seps in Ukraine since April.

Had they banned any civil over flight over SE Ukraine as they did over Crimea which till date is relatively peaceful they wouldnt have come across this.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby CRamS » 18 Jul 2014 18:08

JE MenonJi


And what did the Americans say that can be taken as the unadulterated truth?



Absolutely nothing, US has zero credibility in my eyes. Not having a dog in this fight per se, I am watching CNN, reading NYT, two of US's elite media, and here is what I come away with:

1. They are trying their best to pin the blame on Putin. No doubt ethnic Russians in Ukraine brought the plane down, Putin himself seems to be alluding to that, but Putin had nothing to do with this, and I think it was a tragic mistake. The rebels thought they were shooting down a Ukranian military plane.

2. From a journalistic angle, US's ability to spin whatever story to suit their interests is astounding. Take two stories dominating the media. In this MH17 case, Russians baaad, Ukraine good, white west are God's own people (they even have Uncle Tom Fareed Zakariah repeating this). In contrast, the bulldozing of meek, defenseless Palestinians in the pretext of fighting rag tag Hamas is portrayed as the skill of Israeli military in how scrupulously they are avoiding civilian casualties. A few hundred Palestinians slaughtered to get one rag tag Hamas is collateral damage in upholding Biblical prophecy.

3. Terrorism "experts" pontificating on how this MH17 shooting down can be replicated everywhere from ISIS, to AfPak, you name it. Prominently missing of course is its TSP munnas being to do the same thing to an Indian plane. I guess thats not "global terrorism", its "dispute over Kashmir" or grievance against "Hindu nationalists" in power in India.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Philip » 18 Jul 2014 18:20

More on the "Biden Connection".Like the famous Oscar winnign film,the "French Connection",one is sure that in the fuuture,the "Biden Connection" with events in Ukraine right from the ousting of Yanukovych to what is unfolding right now may be traced to the Veep and his family and CIA interests.

http://sreaves32.wordpress.com/2014/05/ ... s-company/

Biden is a lawyer with insider connections to the financial industry and government. In addition to holding directorship for the U.S. Global Leadership Coalition and The Center for National Policy, he sits on the Chairman’s Advisory Board for the National Democratic Institute (NDI). The NDI is a project of the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), the taxpayer funded organization that does what the CIA did covertly 25 years ago, according to one of its founders, Alan Weinstein.

For more on the role played by NDI, NED, George Soros and the State Department on the overthrow of the elected government of Ukraine and the installation of the current junta led by banker Arseniy Yatsenyuk, see our Nuland Audio Reveals State Department Role in Undermining Ukraine and Wayne Madsen’s Crisis in the Ukraine: USAID Support for Destabilization of Russia.

In March J.P. Sottile wrote about the economic interests of large transnational corporations in Ukraine. In addition to corporate agricultural giant Cargill’s buyout of UkrLandFarming, the world’s eighth-largest land cultivator and second biggest egg producer, Monsanto has expressed a “commitment to Ukraine” and “the importance of creating a favorable environment that encourages innovation and fosters the continued development of agriculture.”

The effort to improve the investment climate for large multinational corporations on the Russian border is spearheaded by the U.S.-Ukraine Foundation, a non-profit NGO funded in part by ExxonMobil, Coca-Cola and Raytheon.

In April Hunter’s father trekked to Ukraine to show support for the junta led in part by fascists and ultra-nationalists. “There are currently ongoing threats to Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity, and the most effective response to that is for all of Ukraine to pull together,” an Obama administration said prior to Biden’s mission.

Beyond the standard rhetorical flourishes about democracy and freedom, Biden Senior’s trip was about securing a proper investment climate in Ukraine.

From The Washington Post on April 21:

The official said the U.S. energy consulting team will travel from here to Slovakia and Hungary to work on ways of reversing the flow of some of Ukraine’s pipelines now supplying Europe. Over the longer term, the official said, the U.S. government will work with Ukraine to help the government increase domestic gas production.

THE FARCE IS COMPLETE: JOE BIDEN’S SON JOINS BOARD OF LARGEST UKRAINE GAS PRODUCER

by Tyler Durden | ZeroHedge

The farce is complete…
Burisma Holdings, Ukraine’s largest private gas producer, has expanded its Board of Directors by bringing on Mr. R Hunter Biden as a new director.
R. Hunter Biden will be in charge of the Holdings’ legal unit and will provide support for the Company among international organizations. On his new appointment, he commented: “Burisma’s track record of innovations and industry leadership in the field of natural gas means that it can be a strong driver of a strong economy in Ukraine. As a new member of the Board, I believe that my assistance in consulting the Company on matters of transparency, corporate governance and responsibility, international expansion and other priorities will contribute to the economy and benefit the people of Ukraine.”

The Chairman of the Board of Directors of Burisma Holdings, Mr. Alan Apter, noted: “The company’s strategy is aimed at the strongest concentration of professional staff and the introduction of best corporate practices, and we’re delighted that Mr. Biden is joining us to help us achieve these goals.”

R. Hunter Biden is a counsel to Boies, Schiller & Flexner LLP, a national law firm based in New York, USA, which served in cases including “Bush vs. Gore”, and “U.S. vs. Microsoft”. He is one of the co-founders and a managing partner of the investment advisory company Rosemont Seneca Partners, as well as chairman of the board of Rosemont Seneca Advisors. He is an Adjunct Professor at Georgetown University’s Masters Program in the School of Foreign Service.

Mr. Biden has experience in public service and foreign policy. He is a director for the U.S. Global Leadership Coalition, The Center for National Policy, and the Chairman’s Advisory Board for the National Democratic Institute. Having served as a Senior Vice President at MBNA bank, former U.S. President Bill Clinton appointed him an Executive Director of E-Commerce Policy Coordination under Secretary of Commerce William Daley. Mr. Biden served as Honorary Co-Chair of the 2008 Obama-Biden Inaugural Committee.

Mr. Biden is a member of the bar in the State of Connecticut, and the District of Columbia, the U.S. Supreme Court, and the Court of Federal Claims. He received a Bachelor’s degree from Georgetown University, and a J.D. from Yale Law School.

R. Hunter Biden is also a well-known public figure. He is chairman of the Board of the World Food Programme U.S.A., together with the world’s largest humanitarian organization, the United Nations World Food Programme. In this capacity he offers assistance to the poor in developing countries, fighting hunger and poverty, and helping to provide food and education to 300 million malnourished children around the world.

Company Background:
Burisma Holdings is a privately owned oil and gas company with assets in Ukraine and operating in the energy market since 2002. To date, the company holds a portfolio with permits to develop fields in the Dnieper-Donets, the Carpathian and the Azov-Kuban basins.
In 2013, the daily gas production grew steadily and at year-end amounted to 11.6 thousand BOE (barrels of oil equivalent – incl. gas, condensate and crude oil), or 1.8 million m3 of natural gas. The company sells these volumes in the domestic market through traders, as well as directly to final consumers.


In other words,Biden Jr. represents the most hard core US corporate groups that want to enslave the world's food producing nations through the induction of Monsanto and GM crops that will make the developing world and their billions of people forever at the mercy of western agricultural policies,raking in trillions at the expense of the poor.

The biggest obstacle to Yanqui devilry is Putin,who has the legitimacy of the overwhelming support of the Russian people.Austin said,there has been a concerted campaign for many years by the west,US and UK in particular,to denigrate Putin and try and plant false flag executed crimes like the assassination of Litvinenko with polonium onto him.The virtual military coup executed by the Kiev clique in the Ukraine was stumped when the Crimea seceded to Moscow and the east rebelled and declared themselves an independent republic.The western and yanqui interests cannot forgive Putin for checkmating them.Hence the continuing military campaign by the Chocolate soldier,baptist preacher,neo-Nazi scum which the US supports to the hilt,providing Blackwater mercenaries,the Rand Corp.,CIA assets,etc. to prevent the inevitable,a collapse of the bankrupt Ukraine state under the weight of the thievery of its oligarchs in tow with the likes of the Biden family.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby JE Menon » 18 Jul 2014 18:41

>>Absolutely nothing, US has zero credibility in my eyes.

OK, then what was the basis for your assertion that the ethnic Russians in Ukraine blasted the plane out of the sky, an assertion you make below as well... because if the US view has no credibility, where else are you getting the info to make that assertion.

>>Not having a dog in this fight per se, I am watching CNN, reading NYT, two of US's elite media, and here is what I come away with: 1. They are trying their best to pin the blame on Putin.

Would you have expected anything else?

>>No doubt ethnic Russians in Ukraine brought the plane down, Putin himself seems to be alluding to that, but Putin had nothing to do with this, and I think it was a tragic mistake. The rebels thought they were shooting down a Ukranian military plane.

This is completely unsubstantiated. There is no allusion to anything of the sort by Putin, and there is a lot of doubt about who brought the aircraft down because there is no evidence to suggest culpability ... other than the evidence put up by one side against the other. Right now, all we know is the plane came down. We don't even know if it was shot down. So your confidence that it was the ethnic Russians seems a bit hasty.

I was speaking earlier today to someone in Western Ukraine (Kiev) as a matter of fact. Just an ordinary person. She, half-Russian/half-Ukrainian, seemed confused and uncertain. Of course the standard term being used is "terrorists" shot the plane down, and she was assuming it was shot down based on Kiev government statements. However, the feeling is more of confusion and sadness and a sort of bewilderment that all this is happening at all. Everyone seems disoriented, but no one is really worried that they will themselves face violence as civilians. It appears that the violence so far is entirely between combatants.

There is a lot of propaganda out there - and it is transparently obvious to anyone who watches the differences in nuance of reportage between the various channels.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Satya_anveshi » 18 Jul 2014 18:47

In the latest round of sanctions, US has gone solo and did not find very many European partners supporting its sanctions on Russia. Given that most passengers on this flight were of European origin, it should not be ruled out that US may be changing Europe's perception or may be even "teaching" them a lesson.

This is besides the other perspective of Putin or even NaMo being the real target of this incident, which also makes US likely perpetrator of this incident.

Of the many scenarios on the table, US itself (with or without aid from Ukraine) being the perpetrator should not be ruled out.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby CRamS » 18 Jul 2014 19:00

JEMJi,

I heard one transcript put out on CNN, a conversation ostensibly between rebels. The conversation indicates that the rebels shot it down thinking it was a Ukranian military plane. I don't know if that transcript is fake. What do you think? But usually in cases like, I use my own judgement, a kind of Bayesian analysis, bases on some prior knowledge and supplementing that with data I gather. It thus seems to me its is highly plausible that rebels shot down the plane thinking it was a Ukranian military. There are other theories too no doubt, but this one appeals to me the most, but who knows.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby JE Menon » 18 Jul 2014 19:07

Exactly boss.. you heard one transcript put out on CNN, a fragment they chose to put out. Like you said, this one "appeals" to you the most.

That is completely different from there being "no doubt" that the ethnic Russians shot them down. We simply don't know yet to be reasonably certain about any particular explanation. You have simply chosen the one you are comfortable with.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Satya_anveshi » 18 Jul 2014 19:08

Russian side of the story:
a source from the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) told ITAR-TASS on Thursday.

“Kiev operates all air traffic control services and it is unclear how this plane (the Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 that crashed in eastern Ukraine near the Russian border Thursday night. — ITAR-TASS) could appear in the area,” he said.

“During the combat actions in Donetsk’s airport the communication tower, a part of the united air control service was blown up,” he said adding that “planes cannot fly there.”


And finally, as RT reported, the national governor of the Donetsk region, Pavel Gubarev, admitted that while the separatists indeed are in possession of one BUK missile unit, it is not operational, and even if it was, it would be unable to reach a height of over 30,000 feet without central radar guidance which the Donetsk region does not have, once again suggesting that a Surface to Air Missile, if indeed one was used, came from the Ukraine side. Surely it will be very easy for international monitors to validate this report.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Victor » 18 Jul 2014 19:36

Does the so-called rebel gloating actually mention MA17? They have shot down several military planes and this recording could be on any one of them.

The main mystery is why would the rebels shoot a jet at 30k ft, one of dozens that fly thru that area and by its altitude and heading was obviously overflying Ukraine? They have absolutely zero to gain from this. The picture being painted of vodka sozzled bumkins spraying SA-11s at airliners is beyond absurd. OTOH, Ukrainian proxytutes have far more credible incentives.

The only thing that makes sense is that this was a plan to take out Putin and the morons botched it. Moscow will probably ask the rebels to send the black boxes and other debris to Russia accompanied by Western and Russian experts in order to preclude any hanky panky.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Victor » 18 Jul 2014 19:45

Satya_anveshi wrote:..separatists indeed are in possession of one BUK missile unit, it is not operational, and even if it was, it would be unable to reach a height of over 30,000 feet without central radar guidance which the Donetsk region does not have, once again suggesting that a Surface to Air Missile, if indeed one was used, came from the Ukraine side. Surely it will be very easy for international monitors to validate this report.

This is the clincher. Even though the BUK has its own seeker, it is meant to work with a much more powerful radar directing it from the ground. On its own it will do a polka in the sky.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Vayutuvan » 18 Jul 2014 19:46

A_Gupta wrote:
European and Ukrainian air traffic controllers had continued to route civil flights over the contested area even as the fighting worsened — and even as flights directed by Russian air traffic controllers had apparently started to avoid it.


Were the Ukrainians cynically directing their ATC to route civvy planes over contested area so that if an accidental shoot down happens they can claim moral victory? Far fetched but as they say "truth is the first causality of any war" or something like that.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Singha » 18 Jul 2014 20:11

good details on the Buk here. http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-9K37-Buk.html
each TELAR has a engagement radar. it has varied over the Buk's models over the years. the latest incarnation seems to be a variation of the NIIP bars mounted on a 21m high telescoping mast, but the Ukr models are likely older ones with the flat drum type thing in the pics.

it also has a acquisition radar which is a powerful unit.

so its kind of like a akash battery.
http://www.ausairpower.net/Zhuhai-2010/ ... lay-1S.jpg

with the rebels running for their lives lately, operating such a complex distributed system is beyond them....at best they would have the actual missile launchers with its integral small radar and maybe one command vehicle. none of the big acquistion and low-alt mast radars sound like the rebels could manage and protect in a shifting battlefield.

so question is could they both acquire and take potshots with just the integral radar .... not that they *could* indicates they would waste precious missiles on overflying civilian a.c for no reason

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Mort Walker » 18 Jul 2014 20:13

The Ukrainians and Russians receive money from overflight agreements that went in to place after the former USSR broke up. Restricted airspace was opened up in return for fees. Both the Russians and Ukrainians are irresponsible for not issuing a NOTAM earlier out of greed.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Y. Kanan » 18 Jul 2014 20:30

Were the Ukrainians cynically directing their ATC to route civvy planes over contested area so that if an accidental shoot down happens they can claim moral victory? Far fetched but as they say "truth is the first causality of any war" or something like that.


Bingo. And not far-fetched at all.

Like I said earlier, no need for elaborate conspiracy theories; it's obvious this tragedy was brought about by three factors:

1) Separatist rebels operating systems like SA-11 without proper infrastructure\training\support.
2) Ukraine govt' deliberately trying to endanger civilian airliners by routing them over conflict zone. They wanted this to happen.
3) Ukraine air force deliberately flying its transports along civilian flight paths (essentially using civilian airliners as human shields).

And by the way, to all you armchair generals claiming that it's impossible an airliner could be accidentally targeted, you need to understand systems like SA-11 are not that sophisticated when operating in a stand-alone fashion. Without being tied into an integrated ATC and air defense network, the operators would have no way to tell the difference between an 777 and an IL-76. Both have the same radar signature and both operate at the same altitude, often follow the same flight paths, etc.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Singha » 18 Jul 2014 20:34

I wonder if the telar's have any IFF system to hold off from targeting friendly a/c that appear on the scope?
or is that left to the acquisition radar ?

the civilian planes have a transponder to id themselves to ATC even when out of range of ATC radars I think..this transponder is not supposed to be turned off, but can be done too as we saw in the other malaysia crash.

since eastern ukraine is also functionally under kiev ATC, only they would perhaps know the ID of each and every a/c and any mil unit not connected to kiev would just see a big blip with no other data.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Virupaksha » 18 Jul 2014 20:43

Mort Walker wrote:The Ukrainians and Russians receive money from overflight agreements that went in to place after the former USSR broke up. Restricted airspace was opened up in return for fees. Both the Russians and Ukrainians are irresponsible for not issuing a NOTAM earlier out of greed.

How come the russians become responsible for NOTAM on ukraine?

It is the US sponsored clique ruling in kiev which holds responsibility for issuing NOTAMs.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Vayutuvan » 18 Jul 2014 21:20

Singha wrote:The civilian planes have a transponder to id themselves to ATC even when out of range of ATC radars I think..this transponder is not supposed to be turned off, but can be done too as we saw in the other malaysia crash.

since eastern ukraine is also functionally under kiev ATC, only they would perhaps know the ID of each and every a/c and any mil unit not connected to kiev would just see a big blip with no other data.

guru D boss, looks like you cracked the puzzle. praNAm.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby nachiket » 18 Jul 2014 21:47

Mort Walker wrote:There is no conspiracy here. Airlines fly the shortest possible route and if there wasn't any restriction over Ukraine by ICAO or EU civil aviation, then the airspace is good. The only restriction was below 30K feet.

Every time we have to fly over AfPak airspace also gives me the willies because the jihadis are capable of doing the same thing like what happened in eastern Ukraine. In some ways we should be thankful that TSP controls military assets in the region and even they know better.

I'd like to know who issued this ridiculous "only below 30k feet" restriction in the first place. If they were worried about SAMs, they should have closed down the entire airspace. Who came up with this figure of 30k feet? Were they intelligence or military experts who knew everything about the types of SAM systems in the area or their capabilities? This is absolutely criminal.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby vijaykarthik » 18 Jul 2014 22:11

^^ matter of fact, its even more ridiculous. AFAIK, from what I read, no fly zone restriction was between 26-32k feet. Which makes it quite interesting. Why just that range alone is something that is quite un-understandable.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby SwamyG » 18 Jul 2014 22:22

A_Gupta wrote:For the record: I strongly oppose the use of air power by a government against its own people. I believe that in India it has been debated, but air power has not been used to strike Indian citizens who are rebels.

Ultimately, the shooting down of aircraft can be traced to this ugliness of the Ukraine civil war - no holds barred.

It can also be traced to:
1. The cold war brewing between European Powers, Russia and USA.
2. Continued arms trade (legal and illegal) sponsored by the Western Countries. {massive money involved, that has lead to disastrous results in Africa, Asia and East European countries}

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Gus » 18 Jul 2014 22:47

JE Menon wrote:Exactly boss.. you heard one transcript put out on CNN, a fragment they chose to put out. Like you said, this one "appeals" to you the most.

That is completely different from there being "no doubt" that the ethnic Russians shot them down. We simply don't know yet to be reasonably certain about any particular explanation. You have simply chosen the one you are comfortable with.


amirkhan is an expert in putting out the first soundbite to create that first impression which spreads more and deep.

cnn is not this super duper independent investigative agency with intrepid reporter :rotfl:

they have embedded reporters who just relay what's fed to them on these matters.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Jarita » 18 Jul 2014 22:50

108 leading world AIDs researchers in that flight. Makes no sense
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... ht-17.html

The AIDS Battle Lost a Hero on Malaysia Airlines Flight 17
Dr. Joep M. Lange, a Dutch researcher whose work toward finding prevention and treatment for the disease is unmatched, and partner Jacqueline von Tongeren were killed in the crash.

Dr. Joep M. Lange, who died in the crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, was one of a handful of brand-name AIDS experts. Of course eulogistic hyperbole is expected after this sort of tragedy, but Lange truly was every inch the visionary, charismatic, and good guy the hurried obituaries suggest.

For many, it seems like forever, but actually AIDS is a new disease. The first reports appeared just 33 years ago and since then, about 75 million people have become infected, half of whom have died. Today one of every 120 adults between 15 and 49 years of age worldwide is HIV-positive.

Given its relatively brief history, it makes sense that the first leaders in HIV management are still around. In the 1980s, the disease was ignored by many of the older, more established clinicians who figured the problem would be simply a passing concern, a fad among overeager new trainees. Thus, to fill the void, these young and impressionable just-minted investigators, including Lange, assumed leadership in the U.S. and Europe. We are lucky that so many were, like Lange, smart, even-handed, and far-sighted. Lange was 60 years old at his death.

Lange started his career examining how best to measure, and therefore predict, disease progression and response to treatment. He and a handful of others developed the HIV “antigen” test, a first-generation attempt at measuring the amount of virus in the bloodstream. Within a decade, his approach led to the routine measurement of the HIV “viral load,” a test performed as routinely as a cholesterol HDL both to diagnose infection and monitor treatment response.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Jarita » 18 Jul 2014 22:54

Just 5 minutes behind Malaysian Airlines, Air India followed.
The targets were the 108 scientists

This sounds like Homi Bhabha

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Vayutuvan » 18 Jul 2014 22:57

A_Gupta wrote:For the record: I strongly oppose the use of air power by a government against its own people.
...
Ukraine civil war - no holds barred.


I too am against air power against civilians (especially so because I am civilian myself :idea: ). But then this is civil war, so by definition the govt. in Kiev is not really an elected one. Yes, it is ugly to say the least but that is not relevant to the point you are trying to make.

---

At this point of time who triggered it is not important. They must stop fighting and have an LOC declared and then go to UN for resolution through a referendum after all the fighting men/women are withdrawn from these areas. This worked so well for Cashmere, why not for Ukrain as well, eh?

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Jarita » 18 Jul 2014 23:02

Perhaps we are debating the "who" fired the missile. Maybe it does not matter. Afterall militias might take money to fire missiles too.
Perhaps the impact of this is far more important. The loss is not just of life but the lifetime of knowledge and research of 108 scientists

Last edited by Jarita on 18 Jul 2014 23:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Jarita » 18 Jul 2014 23:05

“The amount of knowledge that these people who died on the plane were carrying with them and the experiences they had developed will have a devastating impact on HIV research,” Owler told TIME.

“The amount of time it takes to get to a stage where you can come up with those ideas cannot be replaced in a short amount of time. So it does set back work for a cure and strategic prevention of HIV/AIDS very significantly,” he said.

http://time.com/3003840/malaysia-airlin ... 2014-mh17/


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