Eastern Europe/Ukraine

[ramana]

ldev that was uncalled for.

Suggest you delete before it gets reported.

[ldev]

Done.

[svinayak]

Thank you!

[vijaykarthik]

Surprising. Is it that everyone thought that someone else has mentioned it and so none ended up mentioning an interesting development?

The people just reject Arsenic's resignation and also approved the funding he asked for to flush out the pro-Russian rebels. Ouch. Should be interesting to see how this dev turns out.

[member_20317]

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/ ... ation.html

By: David McHugh The Associated Press, Published on Thu Jul 31 2014
KIEV, UKRAINE—Ukraine’s parliament has voted to not accept the resignation of Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk.

<snip>

But the parliament had to accept the resignation, and decided not to Thursday. The vote was 16 for accepting and 109 against, with the rest of the 450-member parliament either absent or not voting.

<snip>

Under Poroshenko’s prodding, parliament finally passed the bills Yatsenyuk had been pushing. The vote keeps Ukraine on course for fulfilling its obligations under its bailout loans with the International Monetary Fund and ensures added funding for the military.

Parliament had balked at passing budget revisions to spend more money on the war and on reconstruction of shattered infrastructure. That legislation passed; legislation on allowing the sale of a minority stake in Ukraine’s gas pipeline system was sent for another vote at a later session.

Poroshenko said that “today the attitude of the people’s deputies of Ukraine toward the Ukrainian people and the Ukrainian army, does not depend on whether there is a governing coalition or not.” [??????]

[kmkraoind]

It seems Ukraine is itching for battle. They must have emboldened by USK support.

From Twitter:
@Stratfor : 10 Ukrainian paratroopers killed, 13 wounded, 11 missing after battle with militants near Shakhtarsk in Donetsk, @ukrinform reported.

[UlanBatori]

Why did the rest of the 450 not show up for such an important vote? Sounds like that vote was sneaked in on a day when most had gone to the beach(no beach since the Crimea left, hain?) So, far from being The People, it was a few RightSector types who seem to have railroaded that.

IOW, The People voted with their feet: they do not want to continue the UnCivilNATO/Blackwater War. They already asked Arsenic to get lost. Note that there was no quorum to vote on this.

[Philip]

Will NATO in the future say that the UKR froces shot down the MH-17 too?! This missile is not a PGM by any standards and will surely run the risk of incurring "collateral damage",a wonderful yanqui euphimism for killing civilians.They're taking their cue from the Gaza War.

http://rt.com/news/177376-kiev-nato-ballistic-missile/
Kiev did use ballistic missiles in E. Ukraine, NATO source confirms to DW
Published time: August 01, 2014

NATO has confirmed that Ukrainian forces have started using powerful ballistic missiles against militants in the east of the country. Kiev previously denied the fact, revealed to DW television by NATO sources in Brussels.

The use of missiles starting this week was first broken by CNN’s Barbara Starr on Wednesday, who cited “three sources” in the Pentagon who said that evidence had been obtained with satellite imagery.

A source in NATO's press service speaking to Deutsche Welle also cited US intelligence. Confirming the strikes, the official did not provide any further details.

DW, which published the information on its Russian-language and Ukrainian-language websites, says that it has lodged an official query about the use of ballistic missiles with Pentagon, but has so far received no answer.

Most experts thought that the likely weapon involved in shelling the militants, who have been retreating in the face of an intensifying government offensive, was the OTR-21 Tochka.

The Soviet-era weapon, NATO reporting name SS-21 Scarab, the newest modification of which has a range of up to 185 kilometers, with a warhead that contains up to 500 kilograms of explosive materials. It is not a high-precision weapon, and has an accuracy radius of about 70 meters at best.

Following the CNN report, Ukraine Security Council representative Andrey Lysenko denied that Kiev was using ballistic missiles, claiming that Ukraine “has enough other, less destructive weapons” to fight off the insurgency.

The leading field commander of the People’s Republic of Donetsk, Igor Strelkov, however, claimed that the government had transported three Scarabs to the airport in Kramatorsk, a rebel stronghold it has recently retaken.

“The Ukrainian military are planning to use these ballistic missiles against water treatment plants that use chlorine in the cities of Donetsk and Lugansk,” Strelkov told reporters at a press conference on Thursday.

[UlanBatori]

“The Ukrainian military are planning to use these ballistic missiles against water treatment plants that use chlorine in the cities of Donetsk and Lugansk,”

IOW, to release chlorine and hydrogen chloride / hydrochloric acid all over the place. Chemical warfare.

[Philip]

Won't that be the last straw as far as Russia is concerned? Incidentally,there were 2 good interviews on the BBC with the Moldovan PM and Pres. of the Transnistria "independent" republic,the sliver of territory in Moldova that is staunchly pro-Russian.There is a cagy situation there,Russia sending free energy to the 500,000 Transnistrians,with 1000 troops stationed there,as was in the Crimea before it broke away from the UKR.The Moldovans have joined the EU group,but appear to be far less adventurous and ambitious than their "Wrong Sector" neighbours. Events in the UKR may stir the Moldovan/Transnistrian pot in the coming time.Watch this space.

Meanwhile the "Moron of Cam" wants to escalate the crisis with Russia even further by provocatively sending troops to the Russia n border! Not having chewn enough in Helmand and Iraq,where the Brits followed their compadres the yanquis in "beating the retreat",tails well tucked between their legs,the Moron of Cam now wants to take on Putin's bears. being a little island far away from Russia,the M of C can sabre rattle to his heart's content well knowing that if the sh*t hits the fan,he will be far from the scene of action and his NATO and European compadres will have to "bear the brunt",pun intended! If Frau Merkel and Vladimir Vladimirovitch swing a deal over the Ukraine,then the M of C will be left high and dry on Brighton beach!

David Cameron: west needs stronger military presence on Russia's borders
PM's letter to Nato calls to review its relationship with Russia and reassure allies in eastern Europe in wake of Ukraine crisis

Rowena Mason, political correspondent
theguardian.com, Saturday 2 August 2014 00.41 BST

Vladimir Putin with a big cannon behind him
Russian President Vladimir Putin now views Nato as an adversary rather than a partner, according to David Cameron. Photograph: Mikhail Klimentyev/AP

Western allies need a stronger military presence in eastern Europe on the border of Russia to respond quickly to any new threats, David Cameron will say on Saturday.

The prime minister will make the comments in a letter to Nato in the wake of Russia's role in arming Ukrainian rebels suspected of shooting down the MH17 airliner and deteriorating relations with President Vladimir Putin. He will also call for a review of Nato's relationship with Russia, saying Putin now views the organisations as an adversary and not a partner.

In a show of military strength, the UK said it would send 1,300 troops and 350 armoured vehicles to take part in a Nato exercise in Poland in October to help reassure eastern European countries that they have western allies.

However, earlier this week, the House of Commons defence committee warned Nato is ill-prepared to confront new threats posed by Russia, and members of the western military alliance may not have the collective political will to take concerted action to deter an attack.

The US and EU have already imposed sweeping sanctions on Russia this week that are the most severe since the end of the cold war. On Wednesday, G7 leaders said they were prepared to "further intensify the costs" to Russia if it does not change its policy of supporting separatists in the Ukraine.

With six weeks to go before the Nato summit in Wales, the prime minister wrote to leaders from the alliance's member states and the secretary-general Anders Fogh Rasmussen, warning that security threats across the globe are multiplying.

"In 2014, the world is more unpredictable than ever and we meet at another pivotal moment in the history of the alliance," he will say.

"In Afghanistan, our combat mission is coming to an end. To the east, Russia has ripped up the rulebook with its illegal annexation of Crimea and aggressive destabilisation of Ukraine. To the south, an arc of instability spreads from north Africa and the Sahel, to Syria, Iraq and the wider Middle East."

Cameron's letter comes in advance of his visit to the Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe (Shape) in Belgium on Monday.

"Six months into the Russia-Ukraine crisis we must agree on long-term measures to strengthen our ability to respond quickly to any threat, to reassure those allies who fear for their own country's security and to deter any Russian aggression," he writes.

He lists specific actions he would like to see: a new exercise schedule adapted to the new security environment; the necessary infrastructure; pre-positioning of equipment and supplies; and an enhanced Nato response force.

"This should be part of a broader action plan that enables us to respond more quickly to any threat against any member of the Alliance, including when we have little warning," he writes.

"We must also review our long-term relationship with Russia. While Nato has only ever sought to be a partner to Russia, not a threat, it is clear that Russia views Nato as an adversary. We must accept that the cooperation of recent years is not currently possible because of Russia's own illegal actions in Nato's neighbourhood and revisit the principles that guide our relationship with Russia."

A further dent into Kiev's lies about the deployment of its SAMs when the MH flight wa sshot down.
‘Wrong time, altered images’: Moscow slams Kiev’s MH17 satellite data
http://rt.com/news/177296-ukraine-mh17- ... te-images/

atellite images Kiev published as ‘proof’ it didn’t deploy anti-aircraft batteries around the MH17 crash site carry altered time-stamps and are from days after the MH17 tragedy, the Russian Defense Ministry has revealed.

The images, which Kiev claims were taken by its satellites at the same time as those taken by Russian satellites, are neither Ukrainian nor authentic, according to Moscow's statement.

The Defense Ministry said the images were apparently made by an American KeyHole reconnaissance satellite, because the two Ukrainian satellites currently in orbit, Sich-1 and Sich-2, were not positioned over the part of Ukraine’s Donetsk Region shown in the pictures.

Moscow claims weather and lighting conditions in the images were not possible at the dates and times Ukraine claims they were made, the Russian ministry said.

At least one of the images published by Ukraine shows signs of being altered by an image editor, the statement added.

Published time: August 01, 2014

[Gagan]

My take on this Na Mo's airplane being the possible target.
I think this is not true.

The picture emerging is that the Ukrainian Air Traffic Control identified the Malaysian Airlines Plane and asked it to change course, bringing it directly into the conflict zone, at a lower altitude than it was flying at.
ATC Ukraine knew MH-17, and placed it there.

I don't think any nation would try this sort of thing with another head of state, and certainly not with the Indian head of state! This will be easily detected, and people will come out into the open if a VVIP were involved. Things are being desperately managed at the Ukraine end by the conspirators, and this is being successful to a limited extent because there was no VVIP in MH-17.

Were it a VVIP aircraft that had gone down, all hell would have broken loose, it would be unprecedented.
No individual will be part of something like this, because successful or not, your life will end for just being a part of something like this.

[UlanBatori]

No individual will be part of something like this, because successful or not, your life will end for just being a part of something like this.

The two Su-25 pilots who know knew what happened, were "shaheeded" a couple of days later. The ATC staff have been replaced, the Spanish guy who talked has probably been "disappeareded" along with his crew-mates.

[Gagan]

Eggjactly !!!
Ditto, the guys who halalled JFK were disappearded too

[Austin]

MH-17 shoot down is not possible without active involvement of the US , Ukraine on its own wont dare to shoot a civil airline without having guaranteed assurance that US would come out in support of it , it can easily be seen how Obama in less than 24 hours of crash came up with Blame the Russian Rebels Theory and giving clean chit to Ukraine .....the rest of administration and Western MSM took it from there.

[Austin]

Russian Oligarchs Wave Goodbye To Visa, Switch To Chinese Credit Card

[Austin]

Stephen Cohen on FOX Radio: Americas failed Policies in Ukraine, right from the beginning

[Pratyush]

Poor chap, he will be treated as a traitor, in khan land for speaking the truth.

[RSoami]

Amazing stupidity bu NATO officials. Here is the entire US establishment working hard to paint the Ukbapzis in good light and they go around declaring that the fellas have used ballistic missiles.
My heart goes out for Kerry and Obama. Now they have to work hard to deny the whole thing again. I thought Russia was the evil party.

http://www.dw.de/ukraine-denies-using-b ... a-17827342

[UlanBatori]

Simple: The mijjiles were used only to take out WMD: chlorine, hydrochloric acid, hydrogen chloride. The Terrorists were on the point of putting these into the DRINKING WATER when the NATO-backed Liberation Forces liberated the Cl, HCL into the atmosphere so that Ukrainians can Breathe Freely. There u go!

[Shanmukh]

Folks,
Here is a bold, and strange claim by a supposed German pilot.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/german-pil ... 17/5394111

The tragedy of Malaysian MH 017 continues to elude any light of clarity being cast over it.

The flight recorders are in England and are evaluated. What can come of it? Maybe more than you would assume.

Especially the voice recorder will be interesting when you look at the picture of a cockpit fragment. As an expert in aviation I closely looked at the images of the wreckage that are circulating on the Internet.

Peter Haisenko in Cockpit of Condor DC 10

First, I was amazed at how few photos can be found from the wreckage with Google. All are in low resolution, except one: The fragment of the cockpit below the window on the pilots side. This image, however, is shocking. In Washington, you can now hear views expressed of a “potentially tragic error / accident” regarding MH 017. Given this particular cockpit image it does not surprise me at all.

Entry and exit impact holes of projectiles in the cockpit area

Source for all photos: Internet

I recommend to click on the little picture to the left. You can download this photo as a PDF in good resolution. This is necessary, because that will allow you understand what I am describing here. The facts speak clear and loud and are beyond the realm of speculation: The cockpit shows traces of shelling! You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likely that of a 30 millimeter caliber projectile. The edge of the other, the larger and slightly frayed exit holes showing shreds of metal pointing produced by the same caliber projectiles. Moreover, it is evident that at these exit holes of the outer layer of the double aluminum reinforced structure are shredded or bent – outwardly! Furthermore, minor cuts can be seen, all bent outward, which indicate that shrapnel had forcefully exited through the outer skin from the inside of the cockpit. The open rivets are are also bent outward.

In sifting through the available images one thing stands out: All wreckage of the sections behind the cockpit are largely intact, except for the fact that only fragments of the aircraft remained . Only the cockpit part shows these peculiar marks of destruction. This leaves the examiner with an important clue. This aircraft was not hit by a missile in the central portion. The destruction is limited to the cockpit area. Now you have to factor in that this part is constructed of specially reinforced material. This is on account of the nose of any aircraft having to withstand the impact of a large bird at high speeds. You can see in the photo, that in this area significantly stronger aluminum alloys were being installed than in the remainder of the outer skin of the fuselage. One remembers the crash of Pan Am over Lockerbie. It was a large segment of the cockpit that due to the special architecture survived the crash in one piece. In the case of flight MH 017 it becomes abundantly clear that there also an explosion took place inside the aircraft.

Tank destroying mix of ammunition

Bullet holes in the outer skin

So what could have happened? Russia recently published radar recordings, that confirm at least one Ukrainian SU 25 in close proximity to MH 017. This corresponds with the statement of the now missing Spanish controller ‘Carlos’ that has seen two Ukrainian fighter aircraft in the immediate vicinity of MH 017. If we now consider the armament of a typical SU 25 we learn this: It is equipped with a double-barreled 30-mm gun, type GSh-302 / AO-17A, equipped with: a 250 round magazine of anti-tank incendiary shells and splinter-explosive shells (dum-dum), arranged in alternating order. The cockpit of the MH 017 has evidently been fired at from both sides: the entry and exit holes are found on the same fragment of it’s cockpit segment!

Now just consider what happens when a series of anti-tank incendiary shells and splinter-explosive shells hit the cockpit. These are after all designed to destroy a modern tank. The anti-tank incendiary shells partially traversed the cockpit and exited on the other side in a slightly deformed shape. (Aviation forensic experts could possibly find them on the ground presumably controlled by the Kiev Ukrainian military; the translator). After all, their impact is designed to penetrate the solid armor of a tank. Also, the splinter-explosive shells will, due to their numerous impacts too cause massive explosions inside the cockpit, since they are designed to do this. Given the rapid firing sequence of the GSh-302 cannon, it will cause a rapid succession of explosions within the cockpit area in a very short time. Remeber each of these is sufficient to destroy a tank.

What “mistake” was actually being committed – and by whom?

Graze on the wing

Because the interior of a commercial aircraft is a hermetically sealed pressurized chamber, the explosions will, in split second, increase the pressure inside the cabin to extreme levels or breaking point. An aircraft is not equipped for this, it will burst like a balloon. This explains a coherent scenario. The largely intact fragments of the rear sections broke in mid air at the weaker points of construction most likely under extreme internal air pressure. The images of the widely scattered field of debris and the brutally damaged segment of cockpit fit like hand in glove. Furthermore, a wing segment shows traces of a grazing shot, which in direct extension leads to the cockpit. Interestingly, I found that both the high-resolution photo of the fragment of bullet riddled cockpit as well as the segment of grazed wing have in the meantime disappeared from Google Images. One can find virtually no more pictures of the wreckage, except the well known smoking ruins.

If you listen to the voices from Washington now who speak of a “potentially tragic error / accident”, all that remains is the question of what might have been the nature of this “mistake” perpetrated here. I am not given to hover long in the realm of speculation, but would like to invite others to consider the following : The MH 017 looked similar in it’s tricolor design to that that of the Russian President’s plane. The plane with President Putin on board was at the same time ”near” Malaysia MH 017. In aviation circles “close” would be considered to be anywhere between 150 to 200 miles. Also, in this context we might consider the deposition of Ms. Tymoshenko, who wanted to shoot President Putin with a Kalashnikov.

But that this remains pure speculation. The shelling of the cockpit of air Malaysia MH 017, however, is definitely not speculation.

The man has also put up a pdf of the image in the same site, where you can supposedly see the marks of the shells. I am not capable of such forensics, but if any of you are capable of it, please take a look and let me know if what the guy is claiming is true.

Disclaimer: The site that is hosting the article is an extreme Left site, which is rife with conspiracy theories.. CIA-did-it is their favourite phrase in any tragedy - and they are not above twisting facts to suit their theories. However, they do have the occasional true article, and this may be one such time.

[Johann]

The Ukrainians are going to use ballistic missiles given the effectiveness of Russian ground based air defences and the reports of Russian CAPs. That's nor surprising.

But by targeting water systems they are in fact aiming at Gaza style collective punishment of the area - which will intensify the political pressure for open Russian intervention.

So they're hoping they can get the Russians to break cover from their story of providing nothing but moral support.

Its a very dangerous game of chicken - the Ukrainians know the US and EU would not effectively oppose Russia if it remained a protracted low-level conflict.

On a more personal note I have a number of Dutch medical friends in tropical medicine who lost colleagues and mentors on MH 17. The looting of things like credit cards and mobile phones from the crash site, the obstruction over access to the bodies has just made things extra horrific for the families. What a disgusting bunch of vultures.

[ldev]

There you go, masculine and tough vs cuddly and gentle!!

Ex-KGB agent vs community rabble-rouser!!

Who's your pick?

Is the handling of this situation a reflection of Chicago style politics? No wonder it carries a stink about it. No US administration in past crises has been so inept.

[habal]

nageshks, those are indeed bullet holes alright.

[UlanBatori]

The looting of things like credit cards and mobile phones from the crash site, the obstruction over access to the bodies has just made things extra horrific for the families.

Johann: Sorry to have to say this, but you know quite well that these are part and parcel of every plane crash. Why do you think people rush from all round and venture into this horrible, ghastly field of charred flesh fragments and jagged metal, when it is perfectly evident that there is not the most remote hope of any survivor? It is a blatant treasure hunt. This is also why such areas are cordoned off by police where feasible - but usually too late.

Battlefields are also scavenged, for such things as gold teeth, rings and watches and bracelets are cut off along with the fingers attached..

In "civilized" countries they may call the recovered property "souvenirs" or "mementos" and maybe put them in black frames to show the (crocodile tear) "sympathy" or "mourning". But all that property is considered lost, the relatives and friends and the insurance companies are all who really mourn.

I bet there are a few of these in homes near Lockerbie, Scotland, or near the Irish coast where the "Emperor Ashoka" was brought down. Or the homes of the climbers who came up on the crash site on Mont Blanc from the Air India crash where Homi J. Bhabha was assassinated...

Such aspects are usually not blared out loud, out of respect for the victims and their relatives (who are victimized even more). Until recently, it was completely forbidden for any pictures of body parts to be shown, but in this crash, the news agencies completely violated that as well. Like, it is somehow soo much worse for half a baby to have been blown onto a burnt tree limb, if the missile that did it had a red star painted on it, rather than the nice emblem saying

From the People of the U.... xxxxx of xxxxx To The People of Ukraine

Of course in those cases the people just sort of go to sleep in perfect health, saying their prayers, and the bodies look so dignified, like people sleeping peacefully, credit cards and rings and watches perfectly in place ...
The only vultures, sorry to say, are the US and UK propagandists who picked on this to generate "horror and disgust" by blaring it out loud as if it had never happened before.

[Austin]

Poor chap, he will be treated as a traitor, in khan land for speaking the truth.

Yes he said so in many words that there is pressure on him and MSM in US rarely interviews him

He recently stated that even the legendary Henry Kessinger was denied a meeting with Obama on the Ukraine crises.

Stephen Cohen is part of 70-80's Cold War era détente group......probably few people from those days alive today.

[UlanBatori]

He is an amazing guy. Tragic that he has the same name as the "South Asia" sh1t.

[TSJones]

The looting of things like credit cards and mobile phones from the crash site, the obstruction over access to the bodies has just made things extra horrific for the families.

Johann: Sorry to have to say this, but you know quite well that these are part and parcel of every plane crash. yadda yadda argle bargle.......

Argumentum ad populum.. Everyone else does it........

[UlanBatori]

Whinum ad propagandum Ostrichium: LOOK! LOOK! He's doing it ! (what I've always done..)

[member_20317]

Cannon usage would require visual confirmation the flip side being visual error.

The projectile is like 400 grams [Added later - should be like 200 gm plus] and probably shoot effectively out to around 4 km. The gap in altitude could easily have been lesser than 4 km. Plus, even though it sounds strange but 2 Ukrainian planes/pilots did go down a few days later. The missile story was bunk to begin with. But the cannon kill makes much better sense. The information released formally or through grapevine, at least for me, becomes consistent with this conclusion.

This also explains why the Russians were so confident from the get go and why the Umrikhans were so reluctant on committing while doing their usual bakwasbazzi.

Oh and Germans are said to be negotiating peace with the Russians.

[UlanBatori]

There must have been some sort of missiles launched - maybe the Su-25s were killed as they returned, by their own side. And announced 2 days later. Did that wreckage fall in "rebel" territory? I think not. So who knows how and when that really happened?

It is just way too coincidental that TWO Su-25s (not other models) were shot down on the same day, 2 days after TWO Su-25s were spotted climbing towards MH-17. Consider that if indeed there was a Buk launcher in "rebel" hands, and MH-17 had been brought down by the rebels, then the UkBapZi Air Force would have been extra careful not to go over the vulnerable areas, and been on super alert for any missile launches. So this huge success by the "rebels" against TWO combat jets, 2 days after the MH-17 event, is extra suspicious.

Also the UkBapZis said one of the pilots bailed out (no word on where he is now), no word on the other.

[member_20317]

^^ I did doubt your conclusions but seems like older people have a better evolved spider sense .

Also with the benefit of hindsight, the color scheme confusion could have been information 'released' by someone on purpose. Which also means that Indian establishment worrying about NaMo security is not out of the ordinary.


Here is a good link though.

There one correction though the bullet is said to be between 386 to 404 gm with propellant varying between 117g and 123g so the projectile is smaller but the range is quoted below. So the

http://russianammo.org/Russian_Ammuniti ... _30mm.html

Airborne weapons:
The Gryazev-Shipunov (GSh) aircraft cannon, used as GSh-301 (1500rpm, 45kg) in the MiG-29 and SU-27, as GSh-30 (3000rpm, 115kg) in the SU-25 and as GSh-6-30 (5000rpm, 150kg) in the MiG-27K, use the same ammunition, but with the electrical primer EKV-30M activated by 27 Volts.

The single-barrel gun is the lightest 30mm cannon developed, it is used in light fighter aircraft in fixed and movable mounts but has only a Vo of 860m/s; ammunition may be fed from the left or the right side. The GSh-301 is recoil operated and only 1970mm long.

The double-barrel GSh-30 measures 2044x222x195mm and is used in fixed installations and underwing gun-pods and has a barrel length of 1500mm. The GSh-30K is a modified version with 2400mm long barrels and an evaporating-type of barrel cooling and variable rate of fire, it is used in fixed helicopter-borne mounts and measures 2944x222x195mm.

The six-barrel rotary cannon is mounted on bomber-aircrafts as defensive cannon and has a Vo of only 850m/s.
It is gas operated and 2040mm long and like the above cannons belt fed.

Propellant charges of the rounds vary between 117g and 123g of 6/7 FL Pyroxilin powder, maximum pressure is 318,8MPa, maximum range is 4000m.
Russian aircraft ammunition features high reliability in a temperature range from -60° C to +80° C with a fail-safe probability index of about 0.9999.
HEI shells for the aircraft cannons use the shorter AG-30 nose fuze, all ammuniton types for the aircraft cannons have a shorter overall length, not to mix them up with the 2A42 types ammo which is not interchangable.

Typical cartridge belt configuration for the aircraft cannons consist of 4xAP-T + 4xHEI + 4xHEI-T for example.

Latest developement are projectiles with two plasic driving bands. The driving bands are very similar to the early driving bands of the U.S. 30mm GAU-8 ammunition and reduce barrel wear considerably.
Technical data of these rounds are the same as for the standard rounds with copper driving band.

[Shreeman]

On a more personal note I have a number of Dutch medical friends in tropical medicine who lost colleagues and mentors on MH 17. The looting of things like credit cards and mobile phones from the crash site, the obstruction over access to the bodies has just made things extra horrific for the families. What a disgusting bunch of vultures.

Johann,

I have never seen you trying to pass propaganda so openly before. So here goes nothing - this is a forum made exclusively of uncivilized people who do the same, nay, much worse.

And before anyone thinks of attacking the standing or merit, let me point out that there was this plane crash in Ranchi, in what was then Bihar. And I am not talking of colleagues who lost mentors, rather a bread winner whose passing on chamged that entire family. The impact on an Indian family is not what it is on a dutch family. That widow is still a widow. The children moved continents to survive the loss, losing jobs in the process.

Then there was the time I live under the appeoach path of IGIA, back when there was miles of jungle around it. And there were at least TWO large aircraft that crashed while landing. And then there was this mid air collision near Charkhi Dadri that pretty much spread manure over several acres. I am not looking up google, these are personal experiences, with people still alive to confirm them.

In each case property was taken by poor people. Long before any services arrived. And it was considered fait accompli. Those who lost something in these tragedies never had any thoughts about iPhones. There losses were bigger. Much bigger.

So, in brief, what I am saying is, this the wrong forum to be peeaching how terrible the loss or misuse of the iPhones is. People reading this forum on a cycle rikshaw under a kerosene lamp next to a cow will do the same. Desperation makes cannibals out of european heroes too.

It is not the point of the tragedy. It didnt make it any worse. I can assure you that other than the russian jew and the black mama, crocodilw tears will find no support here.

If the media hadnt been following Johann's lead, there would be no reason to bring up this aspect today. But reporters turning pockets empty every day is ok, right? Makes good propaganda.

Treat the departed with dignity, That is what we understand. What happens to mobile phones and credit cards is what bothers you, in the same breath as what happens to the remains.

This is a breach that can not be bridged.

[RSoami]

The only vultures, sorry to say, are the US and UK propagandists who picked on this to generate "horror and disgust" by blaring it out loud as if it had never happened before.

Nicely put.

Its not as if the rebels were out looting things from dead bodies having dropped their Aks. If something was taken, it was probably taken by poor russian speaking residents of eastern ukraine. May be sympathisers of the rebels. What is being attempted here is to propagate hatred and animosity towards an entire group of people (russian speaking people of Ukraine) who `rob dead bodies`.

Its like propagating that everyone in London is a criminal and beggar looking to riot to get some blackberrys because some people did it in 2011. Nice propaganda trick.

[TSJones]

The impact on an Indian family is not what it is on a dutch family

well I'll be darned. learn something new every day. I didn't know that. Geez.

[Shreeman]

The impact on an Indian family is not what it is on a dutch family

well I'll be darned. learn something new every day. I didn't know that. Geez.

TSJ, this is not an understatement, and does not merit sarcasm.

I am well aware that race and gender put you at a disadvantage in american society. But you have education and a social welfare net.

I encourage you to visit the dutch, if you havent, and you will recognize the tools that are available to a grieving family. By comparison, there is hardly any conceot of second marriages, there is a very weak government social security net and education for women is still a huge barrier. Adult education, forget about it. There is no comparison with the folks who suffered when canadian supported terrorists blew up the kanishka, if you know your history. Recall any outrage then? Want to look up state department press?

Then, go visit a family impacted by the US-propped terrorist regime. Want an airplane in the mix? Visit the folks that were kidnapped to Afghanistan. What resources exist for them? India is now an easy place to visit, and I can personslly arrange enough visits for you to see sense. Or can you only see Israel as a friend?

Reporters show up 24 hours at the crash site to preach and kick up the dust, where is their humanity? why cant they set their stupidity aside and help with the recovery? And if they can practically put up their tents there, them so can the authorities. This could have been cleaned up promptly if EUkraine and US didnt want the propaganda.

You have no moral standing to preach. At least Johann has some substance to his post. You read the forum as if you are forced to put out these one liners.

Propaganda and machinations over these departed souls havce no place in civilized society. And I havent mentioned Iran Air for a reason. Beware the consequences of lying or hating for no reason, it is a contagious disease.

[ldev]

Russia does not pose an economic or political threat to the US. Its economy will never be dynamic enough to compete with anyone. It is a resource based economy and it is imploding demographically. While it does have a potent nuclear arsenal, prior to this confrontation, Russia was not looking at any offensive operation. IMO, the only reason for this confrontation in Ukraine is because the US wanted a confrontation. The big question is why? Two possible answers:

1. The longer term threat of a joint BRICS alternative global financial architecture actively promoted by Putin.

2. Retribution to Putin for giving sanctuary to Edward Snowden and the devastating disclosure of US intelligence capabilities by Snowden. To overthrow Putin so that Snowden/future whistle blowers/traitors realize that there is truly no place to run/hide.

Even if Putin is not overthrown, to destroy his tactical credibility so that future Russian independence fighters in other lands or governments such as Syrian Bashar Al Assad will think twice before reposing confidence in Putin's ability to back them.

i.e. Putin is the thorn in the US's ability to shape events around the world and he has to go.

[UlanBatori]

Finally a solidly re-lie-able source

As for the downing of the aircraft, I will repeat what I said at the time. Firstly, the onus must be on respect for the victims, their families and loved ones. Secondly, there must be a proper investigation which answers all questions. What system was used, from where, and even then, who fired it and why. Was the target that aircraft? Or Narendra Modi, the Indian who has been attacked for 12 years by NATO, accused of human rights abuses against Moslems during the Hindu-Moslem riots in India, about which the history book has concentrated on the deaths of Moslems and suppressed the figures relating to the Hindus? Modi's aircraft was on the same flight path as the MH-17 and was minutes behind.

[Singha]

there are accusations of looting in 9/11, by firefighters, which are ofcourse denied by the fire dept.
this is in middle of the biggest city , with pretty much police and fire fighters being on scene within minutes and everyone else just running as fast as they can to leave to the area.

[Vayutuvan]

Johann,

I have never seen you trying to pass propaganda so openly before.

My God man, it took you so long to realize this simple fact? Wheels within wheels.

---

added later: my comment is simply about the majority of the posts made by the poster Johann. I do sympathize with the near and dear of the people who died in the crash. I always felt welcomed by the friendly people of the Netherlands during my longish non-tourist stay there. I made several friends. But that is besides the point, ain't it?

The real question is why was this precipitated? What was the problem in accepting the results of the referendum? A civil war where both sides are supported by stronger parties whose support is premised on their own self interest and the rest be damned is unpalatable. As an American, I see this to be shaping up to another Korea or Vietnam.

[Shreeman]

Johann,

I have never seen you trying to pass propaganda so openly before.

My God man, it took you so long to realize this simple fact? Wheels within wheels.

A bias towards a nation or policy is different than propaganda. Johann's posts are meaningful and I have no doubt he is grieving.

It is the misdirection of grief due to propaganda that I am pointing out. In his personal grief we are with him and sympathetic. But if he falls victim to misdirection (think Eyeraq war for 9/11) or promotes it, we will only see more nembers have sad reasons. The world has never been more dangerous and morality never in this scarce a supply.

I am not picking a pulpit here, but Johann's years of experience should have sent him seeking the truth, rather than falling victim to immature drama that is the media today. It is all a scripted "reality" show.