Eastern Europe/Ukraine

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RSoami
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby RSoami » 11 Aug 2014 16:29

Yes, Ukraine is economically finished. But that does not mean it will come back in the Russian Sphere. Its more likely that Ukraine will be completely dependent on the west.

The more economically vulnerable they are, the more anti Russian and pro American they are. The baltic states are a classic example.

What makes Putin think that Ukraine will be any different?

Put together with destruction of east Ukraine`s economy that was more integrated with Russian economy and the persecution of the ethnic Russians, waiting doesnt seem like a great choice by Putin.

Austin
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Austin » 11 Aug 2014 18:15

Pretty Significant event

SCO to admit new members
Draft documents on the procedure of the admission new members to the Shanghai Cooperation Organization have been adopted. This is one of the main outcomes of the meeting of the foreign ministers of Russia, China, Tajikistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Kirgizstan held in Dushanbe on Thursday.

The adoption of these documents at the next SCO summit will give the green light for admitting the four observer-states, India, Pakistan, Iran and Mongolia, to the six-member organization.

Documents will be submitted to the SCO summit for the adoption. The summit will be held in Dushanbe in September. At present, Tajikistan holds the SCO presidency.

The quartet has expressed their desire to join the SCO in the past few years. The four countries have taken part in economic and cultural projects of the organization as observer-states. The desire of India, Pakistan, Iran and Mongolia reflects the growing authority and influence of the SCO in the eyes of Asian countries, says expert at the Higher School of Economics Alexei Maslov.

“At present, the SCO has started to counterbalance NATO’s role in Asia. Consequently, these countries want to take part in the SCO in the capacity of safeguard of their interests. At present, the SCO is strengthening because the American policy towards Asia has been excessively tough and is aimed at suppressing their interests. The American policy contradicts the interests of Asian countries. In this sense, it’s quite natural that India, Pakistan, Iran and Mongolia expressed desire to join the SCO. There is another aspect that has to be taken into account. The growing role of China in the world shows that many countries are afraid of directly cooperating with it without outside backing. In this context, SCO enters in the capacity of guarantor that China will honour the interests of these countries in the framework of the existing SCO guidelines,” Maslov said.

The admission of India, Pakistan, Iran and Mongolia will pave the way for the SCO to hold itself out as the centre of power in global politics, says expert at the Institute of International Studies, Leonid Gusev.

If these countries become the SCO permanent members, this means that the organization will turn into a powerful structure. If other countries join the SCO, then we can say about the appearance of an alternative powerful global organization because it will be seriously reckoned,” Gusev said.

By giving green light to the admission of the quartet, the SCO shows that it is organizationally developing and capable of upgrading itself and rejecting exhausted norms, says Alexei Maslov.

“It has long considered that the admission of new members to the SCO, which have serious problems between them, for example India and Pakistan, would be dangerous for its future. The reason here was that this might led to grow strain between members. However, there are special relations between China and Pakistan. For one, China lobbies the admission of Pakistan to the SCO. Meanwhile, Russia actively supports the SCO membership of India, Iran and Mongolia. At present, owing to the admission of the quartet, the SCO will be able to create a powerful organization in Asia and it will be a powerful economic, cultural and educational network,” Gusev said.

The foreign ministers adopted a draft strategy for the development of the SCO up to 2025. It was submitted by Russia. It has set the task of minimizing the negative influence of global and regional processes on the SCO territory. It is also aimed at upgrading its role and significance in solving global issues.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Austin » 11 Aug 2014 18:20

RSoami wrote:Yes, Ukraine is economically finished. But that does not mean it will come back in the Russian Sphere. Its more likely that Ukraine will be completely dependent on the west.

The more economically vulnerable they are, the more anti Russian and pro American they are. The baltic states are a classic example.

What makes Putin think that Ukraine will be any different?

Put together with destruction of east Ukraine`s economy that was more integrated with Russian economy and the persecution of the ethnic Russians, waiting doesnt seem like a great choice by Putin.


Its true that Ukraine West is anti-Russian and that didnt start yesterday or with Putin , There have been pro-west colour revolution in past and they have failed at that time Russia didnt even intervened. Atleast this time they got Crimea which if you ask me is a big deal in todays age.

I am not really worried about US or Europe making Ukraine anti-Russian etc ......Right now Europe is barely recovering and US Economy is sitting on top of a nice bubble that will ultimately lead to a dollar collapse .....it is just a question of how soon we will see these events and most analyst including our RBI Governor says this could happen soon.

Russia must simply stay put and play this out .... keep buying gold much like China is doing. Trying to actively do things via Military or intervention is just playing into west hands.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby ldev » 11 Aug 2014 18:28

Putin is a hard headed realist. The most crucial part for him is that Ukraine as a whole, but if he cannot get it for the whole of Ukraine, then at least eastern Ukraine is a neutral buffer on Russia's border. And the story on that will not be written until this winter is over. That is when Putin has maximum leverage and he will move decisively, when western Europe will be at its most vulnerable. That is also why the US is pushing so hard now, while the weather is still warm - they want the issue of Ukraine to be settled decisively before winter sets in. From the situation on the ground, the rebels will not be able to hold out beyond the next few days/weeks. But will that really be the end of the insurgency? As I said, I wouldnt count on the shape of the final settlement in Ukraine emerging until after winter.

Putin and any other hard headed world leader pursue strategic objectives, people and their lives are secondary. Just look at the "collateral" damage in the millions of people's lives lost and uprooted all over the Middle East as the US pursues its strategic objectives. So I wouldnt hold my breath that Putin will ride in on a white horse and save the ethnic Russians, they have sanctuary in Russia.

As Russia builds gas pipelines around Ukraine, any leverage that Ukraine has over Western Europe will be lost. The Europeans want their natural gas, they will continue to deal with Russia, Ukraine will become just another basket case in which the EU will be pumping in billions per year, for years to come.

Putin's big lesson from this confrontation is that he must reduce Russia's dependence on the USD led global financial system. That is something he will pursue in the years ahead with the BRICS countries and others.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Austin » 11 Aug 2014 20:28

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-1 ... k-helicopt

from Interfax:
LAVROV SAYS ALL DETAILS OF HUMANITARIAN MISSION AGREED WITH UKRAINE GOVT, EXPRESSES HOPE MISSION WILL TAKE PLACE SOON
RUSSIA HOPES THAT HUMANITARIAN ACTION FOR DONBAS WILL NOT BE OBSTRUCTED BY PARTNERS - LAVROV
LAVROV: IF MEDIA REPORTS, SAYING THAT BRITISH, FRENCH, GERMANY LEADERS AGREED NO NEED FOR HUMANITARIAN AID EXISTS IN UKRAINE, ARE TRUE, THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS CYNICISM MANIFESTATION
INTRODUCTION OF FOOD IMPORT RESTRICTIONS CONDITIONED, AMONG OTHER THINGS, WITH SANCTIONS AGAINST RUSSIAN AGRICULTURAL BANK, WHICH COMPLICATES FINANCING AGRICULTURE PRODUCERS - LAVROV
IT IS HARD TO CALL GOOD PARTNERS THE COUNTRIES UNITING AGAINST RUSSIA - LAVROV
LAVROV: ONE MAY GET THE IMPRESSION THAT THE COUNTERTERRORISM OPERATION IN UKRAINE AIMS TO WIPE OFF SOUTHEASTERN UKRAINE FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH AND TO MAKE ALL RUSSIANS GO

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Philip » 12 Aug 2014 23:48

Ukraine and Western hypocrisy at work.While O'Bomber water bombs tens of thousands of dying Yazdis in Iraq high-level drops of relief supplies which explode upon hitting mother earth,its Kiev puppets plan to prevent Russian humanitarian aid to its besieged peoples in the east in road convoys under Red Cross supervision!

Meanwhile,there is a crisis building up in the EU/UK after Russia bans food from the EU in tit-for-tat sanctions. And where does it hit hard? The UK/EU pig farmers! Putin's "NO" to EU "pigs",pun intended,means that pork prices will soon crash ,making it cheaper for daddy to "bring home the bacon" for European families,other than their large Muslim population!

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby RSoami » 13 Aug 2014 01:55

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... 814?page=2

Ukraine/US/Germany want Red cross to deliver the Russian aid.
Now if Russia has been supplying heavy weapons and men and everything to the east ukrainians, then it would be really foolish to be sending this kind of military aid in these humanitarian aid trucks. After all it is doing so already through other means according to the western geniuses.
Every now and then, the west exposes its own propaganda.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby chanakyaa » 13 Aug 2014 04:44

http://rt.com/business/179684-eu-latinamerica-sanctions-russia/

EU to urge Latin America not to export food to Russia
The European Union is reported to be planning to dissuade Latin American countries from providing Russia with agricultural produce, saying it would be unfair and ‘difficult to justify.’

“We will be talking to the countries that would potentially replacing our exports to indicate that we would expect them not to profit unfairly from the current situation,” the Financial Times (FT) quotes

:rotfl: what a bunch of hypocrites. EU continue to remind that unions are set up for pure goondagardi

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Gagan » 13 Aug 2014 05:55

Putin has had a nice meeting with the Egyptian President in Sochi.
Russia will import lots of grain from Egypt, and will export its fruits etc to Egypt.

Latin and South American nations are going to make a windfall by exporting agri goods to Russia. EU's gripe is that, these nations are getting a foothold in the Russian market. In future, the Russians may not like the more expensive EU exports, which will have been replaced by exports from all over the world.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Philip » 13 Aug 2014 14:44

Read the transcripts of the UKR forces conversations and the truth about the NH-17 shooting.

The hacker group “KiberBerkut” hacked personal correspondence of the Ukrainian officials regarding downed July 17 Malaysian “Boeing”. In the correspondence of two lieutenants of the oligarch and part time governor Kolomoisky, as well as the new defence minister of Ukraine Valery Geletey actively discussing Ukrainian fascist AF actions and how the local media should present the circumstances of the crash.

http://beforeitsnews.com/global-unrest/ ... ttedPage=2
Xcpts:
Transcript II
(with defence minister)

12.07.2014 23:01
Валерий Гелетей
Это мой профиль. По телефону или скайпу больше такого не спрашивай! И здесь – все только условными фразами. Это понятно?
This is my profile. And never again ask those questions on the phone or Skype! And here also use only code-phrases, is that understood?

12.07.2014 23:03
Svyatoslav Oliynyk
Понял. Хотя насчет телефонов я не совсем разделяю вашу обеспокоенность. У нас все согласовано.
Understood! But I don’t agree with extra precautions in phone conversations. Everything is copacetic.

12.07.2014 23:06
Валерий Гелетей
По диспетчерам с твоим шефом мы уже все решили. Он сказал, что контроль будет на тебе. Завтра я пришлю тебе своего человека, и ты должен будешь через него каждый день мне докладывать о ходе всех запланированных этапов подготовки, которые в вашей ответственности!
Reagaring ATC’s we have agreement with your boss. He [Kolomoysky] said you will be curator of the operation. I’ll send my man tomorrow, and you will report to me daily through him about every detail of the preparation process, for which you are responsible!


12.07.2014 23:07
Svyatoslav Oliynyk
Валерий Викторович, а человек зачем? Или вы уже решили, что я сбегу и оставлю семью неизвестно у кого?
Valery Victorovich [Ukrainian Defense Minister] why do a need a watch man? Do you really thing I’ll go on the run? and leave my family?

12.07.2014 23:09
Валерий Гелетей
У тебя память короткая. Ты забыл, как тебе передали инструкции? Вот такой же человек, который сможет гарантировать защиту и конфиденциальность твоих докладов мне – завтра к тебе и прибудет.
You have a short memory. Have you forgotten your instructions? He is a man who can guarantee the protection and confidentiality of your reports to me - you will meet him tomorrow.



12.07.2014 23:09
Svyatoslav Oliynyk
Хорошо, жду!
Good, can’t wait!

14.07.2014 20:43
Валерий Гелетей
Напоминаю про обещание твоего шефа: сценариев репортажей я от вас так и не дождался! Завтра утром, когда будешь передавать мне отчет, пришли мне сценарии и видео, которое вы сделали.
Let me remind you about your bos’s promise to provide me with copies of the scripts for the media reports. In the morning, with your dayly report do send me those scripts and prepared videos.


14.07.2014 20:47
Svyatoslav Oliynyk
Валерий Викторович, шеф задание директору канала дал еще неделю назад! Он гад страх потерял – затянул со сроками! Но сегодня они уже все закончили. Набросали больше 10 сценариев, для разных вариантов развития событий, на первые двое суток. Сейчас работают над следующими тремя сутками. Утром вам все пришлю.

Valery Victorovich, boss directly ordered CEO of TV cnannel week ago to get everything done. HE delayed everything. But today everything is completed. Prepared more than 10 different scenarios depending on actual events to happen for the first 48 hours. Right now working for the news coverages for 3 days more. You’ll get everything first thing in the morning.


14.07.2014 20:48
Валерий Гелетей
И видео не забудь – у меня о нем Петр Алексеевич спрашивал.
Don’t forget to include the video. Petr Alekseevich [Poroshenko, president of Ukraine] specifically asked to see it.

14.07.2014 20:48
Svyatoslav Oliynyk
Я понял. Все сделаю. До связи.
Understood. Everything will be done. Catch you next time.

16.07.2014 08:46
Валерий Гелетей
Дальше связь только через наш канал. Человек будет у тебя, пока это необходимо мне. И шефа спроси, почему к нему как обычно не дозвониться, а потом он начинает сам звонить и рассказывать все почти открытым текстом?

From now on any communications only through our [secure, military?] channel. My man will be with you untill further notice, as long as it is necessary for me. Also ask you boss [Kolomoysky] why he is unreachable, and then he will call back on unsecured channel and flap his mouth about everything?


16.07.2014 08:48
Svyatoslav Oliynyk
Ок! Без проблем.
Sure, will do.

16.07.2014 08:49
Svyatoslav Oliynyk
Шефу тоже передам, но у него же телефон с шифрацией, его не прослушаешь и не раскодируешь. Все равно будет звонить!

I’ll tell chief [Kolomoysky] for sure, but why? He [Kolomoysky] also has secure phone with scrambler. No one can eavesdrop or decode anyway. Well, he [Kolomoysky] wil call you anyway.


17.07.2014 21:22
Svyatoslav Oliynyk
Ладно, фиг с ним. Что? И как?
Screw it. What and How [it went]?

17.07.2014 21:23
Юрій Береза
землей – прямым – воздухом
Ground [SAM] – direct [referring to cannon] – air [air to air missile]

17.07.2014 21:24
Svyatoslav Oliynyk
А воздухом какого хера???
Why air in the fracking world? [Air to air missile]

17.07.2014 21:26
Юрій Береза
Передали, что не смог долго удерживаться там, типа высоко. Сделал один прямым. Не проканало. Тогда пришлось воздухом.
[Pilot] reported that he could not keep plane so high for a long time. Made one straight [cannon salvo]. Didn’t worked. Then had to use air to air [missile].

17.07.2014 21:27
Svyatoslav Oliynyk
А почему сначала харьковских подняли?
Why Kharkov was involved? [Air defense military command center]

17.07.2014 21:30
Юрій Береза
Они сказали, что сначала команда пришла из Киева на харьковский пульт, а когда он начал разворачиваться, тогда уже остальных подключили.
They said that the first orders came from Kiev to Kharkov control [Air defense military command center] , only when they went on defcon others begun to follow.

17.07.2014 21:32
Svyatoslav Oliynyk
ясно, ну расскажешь еще потом подробнее. Ты без задержек?
got it, well later on you’ll provide me all details [in personal conversation] Any delays?

17.07.2014 21:34
Юрій Береза
Да, скоро на месте буду. Только закончил с журналистами.
Absolutely, soon well be there, Just finished with journalists.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Singha » 13 Aug 2014 15:04

Brazil could supply entire russian fruit and vegetable requirements. its a massive exporter of vegetables.
brazil and argentina could cover grain (wheat) requirements . rice could come from exporters like india, egypt(?), vietnam, cambodia, thailand......argentia is a big exporter of beef and lamb probably.

the only thing that euros have a good hold on is milk products like cheese, chocolate, powdered milk and butter surplus. maybe we should curtail the stupid buffalo meat exports and may attention to improving and harnessing the water buffalo as a productive animal which not only ploughs land, is native and hardy species but also supplies fat nutritious milk. ....... during my mtech days I increased my weight from a cadaverous 60kg to 72kg on the back of water buffalo milk.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Philip » 13 Aug 2014 16:13

You slim thing!

The sheer hypocrisy of the West is laid bare,saying that Russia should not supply humanitarian aid to the east UKR ,where the vast majority of the population are ethnic Russians,while it does exactly that in Iraq,where no US or western citizens live!


Asking to be invaded,by denying humanitarian aid?
This reminds me of Rajiv-G's air "droppings" of relief aid to Tamils in the north,before the Indo-Lankan accord was signed.It stopped JRJ's planned assault on Jaffna.Is the Red Cross also being biased?

Ukrainian army will block ‘unauthorised’ huge Russian aid convoy at border amid fears it could become pretext for invasion
Kiev and the West already accuse Russia – which reportedly now has a huge army amassed on the border – of supplying rebel fighters

A convoy of almost 300 Russian trucks has departed for eastern Ukraine, state media reported, despite warnings from the West that an unauthorised intervention would “violate international law”.

It sets Ukraine and Russia up for a direct confrontation at the border, after officials in Kiev declared that the convoy will be blocked from entering the country.

On Monday an international agreement was reached whereby all aid to the region would be approved and distributed by the Red Cross – which said today it had “no information” about Russia’s actions.

Andriy Lysenko, a spokesperson for Ukraine's National Security and Defence Council, said the Russian aid consignment had not been certified by the Red Cross and as such would not be admitted.

Thousands of people are believed to be desperately short of food, water and medical aid due to the fighting, which has seen more than 1,300 people killed.

But with Ukraine reporting that Russia has amassed 45,000 troops on the border, Kiev says there is a “high probability” that Moscow could intervene militarily.


The Russian Itar Tass news agency said that the convoy of 280 vehicles had departed from near Moscow on Tuesday morning, meaning it would be between one and two days before it arrived at the eastern Ukrainian border.

The Russian convoy of 280 trucks carrying humanitarian aid for Ukraine set off amid Western warnings against using help as a pretext for an invasion The Russian convoy of 280 trucks carrying humanitarian aid for Ukraine set off amid Western warnings against using help as a pretext for an invasion

Andre Loersch, a spokesperson for the International Committee of the Red Cross mission in Ukraine, said the organisation had “no information about the content” of the trucks and did not know where they were headed.

“At this stage we have no agreement on this, and it looks like the initiative of the Russian Federation,” he said.

A Ukrainian military convoy moves along a road near Donetsk August 9, 2014 A Ukrainian military convoy moves along a road near Donetsk August 9, 2014

The former Ukrainian president Leonid Kuchma, who has been acting as a mediator in the conflict, told the Interfax news agency that Russia would allow its consignment of aid to be accompanied by monitors from the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).

The aid is most urgently needed in the largely rebel-held province of Luhansk. Its capital had a pre-war population of 420,000, and the 250,000 remaining have been without electricity or water supplies for nine days.

Ukraine crisis: Bridges blown up as rebels retreat

But with it still unclear where the Russian convoy would try to enter the country, even the rebel leadership appeared to have no clear notions on how it would be handled.

“Theoretically, the convoy should go through Kharkiv to Luhansk. This column is intended for Luhansk, but where it will go in practice we will see,” said Andrei Purgin, a leader in the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic.

Kiev and the West have repeatedly opposed any Russian humanitarian aid mission to east Ukraine, fearing that such a move would open the door to further intervention by Moscow. Throughout the conflict, Ukraine and the West have accused Russia of aiding the rebels with arms and expertise, a charge that the Kremlin has denied.

After announcing the aid mission on Monday, the US President Barack Obama and Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko issued a joint statement saying that “any Russian intervention in Ukraine without the formal, express consent and authorization would be unacceptable and a violation of international law”.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby RSoami » 13 Aug 2014 18:17

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/20 ... 66260.html

12 Right Sector fellows killed outside Donetsk. Al Jazeera reports.
Now as we all know, Al Jazeera is controlled by the Russian government which feeds biased reports to the world.

Right Sector people are the most moderate of political forces in Ukraine. They were there near Donetsk only to protest peacefuly against the `disgusting vultures` who steal credit cards etc etc.

Above all, it is all Russia`s and Putin`s fault.

"We have suffered terrible losses. We will avenge this," Right Sector leader Dmytro Yarosh said on his Facebook page.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby RSoami » 13 Aug 2014 18:38

http://qz.com/248718/ukraines-currency- ... o-stop-it/

Ukraine’s currency is collapsing, and there isn’t much it can do to stop it


The currency slide is fueling inflation and making foreign debt burdens heavier, which means that Ukraine might need to ask for more money from the IMF
:D

But until the turmoil in the east subsides—which seems unlikely any time soon—the economy will remain almost totally reliant on foreign financial aid. Ukraine is set to be the worst-performing economy in the world this year, and no other country even comes close.


But if anyone is getting ideas to end the conflict and talk to those `disgusting vultures`, here is why they should not. The latest from the western stables.
I tried pasting some gems. But actually every single line is a lie and lame propaganda that will make you smile.
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/ ... -trl6NKOwU

Ukraine is actually winning the war. 8)

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby UlanBatori » 13 Aug 2014 19:12

the economy will remain almost totally reliant on foreign financial aid. Ukraine is set to be the worst-performing economy in the world this year, and no other country even comes close.


What an insult to Pakistan!

Looks like 48 hours to Vodka Time, BTW.

Tough time for POTUS BO, Emperor of Da Universe. Time for some Real Decision-Making:
Let's see:

1. Send in the Marines to support the (illegal per International Law, not authorized by UN) air strikes against the Peaceful Pro-Democracy Protestors in Iraq: Nah! they are only committing genocide against the Yazdis, but hey, Boyz Will Be Boyz, esp. when they are fundoo Isloos...

2. Send in BlackWater Security (perfectly allowed by International Law) to East Ukraine to shell civilians.

3. Send in NATO airstrikes on Russia because they are VIOLATING INTERNATIONAL LAW by sending food to the starving civilians whom BlackWater and their buddies Right-Sector are trying to ethnic-cleanse out of Ukraine. YESSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby RSoami » 13 Aug 2014 19:35

This does not actually belong in this thread so if the mods may feel like, they may delete it.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/08/1 ... BO20140813

Russia is conducting exercises in the southern Kuril Islands. This is almost entirely a response to the Japanese applying sanctions again the Russians.
Now, my question is why doesnt Russia react the same way when Germany does the same thing.
It reacts to Japan, Poland, Lithuania and US but not to Germany. Is it because Putin has a soft corner for that country. Germany is the second largest trading partner etc etc. But nevertheless Putin courts the Germans more than anyone else, more than may be he needs to.

He simply doesnt act the same way. Something doesnt add up.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Prem » 14 Aug 2014 00:02

Food import ban means Russia is fully at war with the West
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html
( These guys are supposed to the Wise Men of Washing-Ton-Post?)

Russians are about to lose access to virtually all food imported from the West — which is to say, a significant portion of the food that Russians consume. President Vladimir Putin ordered the ban on imports to retaliate against Western countries that imposed economic sanctions against Russia after the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over eastern Ukraine. More than anything that has happened this year — more than the annexation of Crimea, more than the latest crop of repressive laws passed by the parliament and more than the West’s sanctions — the food ban marks a turning point for Russia. It is now fully and truly a country at war.a country at war invariably declares war not only on the outside enemy — in this case, the West, as represented by Ukraine — but also on the enemy within. In his landmark speech to parliament in March announcing the annexation of Crimea, Putin made reference to a “fifth column” of “national traitors” who are in cahoots with the West. With the ban on imported foods, he has broken an uneasy, long-standing truce with the group he views with the most suspicion: Russia’s cafe society. :roll: My friends are right: The existence of these Moscow restaurants is inconceivable in the medieval warrior state into which Russia is turning itself. Putin knows this, too, and his food ban communicates a simple message to the differently minded: You no longer get to sit around in your cafes. The day after Putin announced the food ban, Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev dealt a second, likely fatal blow to Russian cafe culture by announcing what amounts to a ban on WiFi access in public places.In between lamenting the disappearance of Italian mozzarella, Australian rib-eye, Finnish yogurt and even cheap American drumsticks, Russian bloggers have also suggested in the past few days that by introducing what amounts to additional sanctions against his country, Putin may have weakened his government. The West’s sanctions, of course, are increasingly designed in the hopes of effecting regime change rather than changing Putin’s mind. Will either or both sets of sanctions work by stressing the elites enough to make them unite against Putin? If they do, we won’t know it until it happens, so tightly closed is the system that Putin built. One thing is clear, though: Putin’s Russia is becoming more truly itself, and the food ban is an important part of renouncing any pretense of being a part of the larger world.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Philip » 14 Aug 2014 06:04

WAR IMMINENT?

The assumption that the convoy carries mil.ware is ridiculous as Russia has wanted the convoy to be escorted by humanitarian agencies/Red Cross which could easily vet the contents.In fact it is the Intl.Red Cross which is stalling and refusing to assist the relief ! This exposes the entity as being a conspirator ,part of the West's NGO army.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/edi ... 65006.html
Independent Editorial
Tuesday 12 August 2014
War between Russia and Ukraine could be imminent

It would be little surprise if, as is feared in Kiev, the aid convoy dispatched today by Russia in the direction of eastern Ukraine contained more than just food and basic supplies. Some 280 trucks set off, apparently from a military base, without the full assent of the International Committee of the Red Cross, under whose auspices the mission was supposed to take place, or of the Ukrainian government.

Tensions are bound to increase once the convoy reaches the border; Kiev has announced that aid will be let in, but all trucks refused entry. Meanwhile Vladimir Putin appears ready to exploit any perceived disruption: Nato’s Secretary General has admitted there is now a “high probability” that 45,000 Russian troops stationed on the border will invade.

The convoy is both a typical piece of Putin theatre – where nobody knows quite what lies behind the curtain – and a serious threat to Ukrainian sovereignty. Thus far Mr Putin has expertly wielded the threat of conflict to make political gains. But if he sought all-out war, there would be little need to stage-manage a cause. Kiev’s forces currently surround Donetsk, the Russia-leaning city where much of the “aid” is nominally destined, and such a siege would be excuse enough to launch a “protective” intervention – particularly when Russia’s state media paints the Ukrainian military as a band of bloodthirsty fascists.

Much as it would be foolish to expect anything of Putin, it can at least be hoped that he is once again playing a game of “armed politics” – seeking to destabilise Ukraine and support the rebels, without tipping in to a full-scale invasion. Still, the Russian President has placed the situation on a knife-edge and the diplomatic tables now tilt his way. Western leaders must offer all possible assistance to balance them back in favour of the Poroshenko government – close as it is to quelling the separatists.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/a ... thin-hours
The Russian military has been involved in preparing the convoy, which departed from Alabino, a town outside Moscow where the 2nd Guards Tamanskaya Motor Rifle Division is based. A YouTube video uploaded on 10 August showed soldiers standing next to the convoy and a missile launcher parked across the road. The video later disappeared.

An independent defence analyst, Anton Lavrov, said the video had indeed been taken at the Alabino military base, that some of the vehicles were obviously military trucks repainted white, and identified the launcher as Russia's powerful S-300 surface-to-air missile.

"I think it is a humanitarian PR ploy. If Russia can deliver aid it will raise its prestige, and the residents of eastern Ukraine will know it's Ukraine's fault they weren't getting humanitarian aid," Lavrov said. "If it does try to go through a rebel-controlled border crossing then it will be clear that this is not first and foremost humanitarian aid."

The Russian blogosphere was full of theories that the convoy was meant to provoke an attack so Russian troops could be deployed to protect it, or to begin a regular flow of Russian trucks into eastern Ukraine.


"This specific convoy could be clean. Because for now there's no need to bring weapons in some intricate manner – whole tank columns, Grad rockets, Gvozdika howitzers, Buk missiles are entering Ukraine without difficulty," the popular blogger and commentator Vladimir Golyshev wrote on Facebook.

"But tomorrow problems could arise with this. And for that reason it's important to set a precedent. This is a real diplomatic war."

The Russian nationalist website Sputnik & Pogrom argued that the convoy puts Kiev in a bind: accepting the aid would "completely destroy their narrative of a war with bloodthirsty Russians", but turning it away during a humanitarian crisis would also look bad. "One thing is for sure: the conflict that will develop around the convoy in the next few days will become yet another step toward the deployment of troops to Ukraine and the mobilisation of Russian public opinion for that deployment," the website wrote.


Andrei Illarionov, a former economic policy adviser to Putin who is now a fellow at the conservative Cato Institute in Washington, told the Ukrainian publication Gordon on Monday that any humanitarian convoy to Ukraine would be a sign of Russian aggression aimed at supporting the separatist cause.

"The deployment of a so called 'humanitarian convoy', 'peace-keeping forces', 'emergencies ministry units' is one of the steps of the methodology developed by the Russian authorities to seize foreign territories," he said.

Illarionov said Russia's emergencies ministry had conducted a similar humanitarian mission to Georgia in 1993. Georgian commentators later accused the operation of delivering arms to separatists in the Abkhazia region, which is now an unrecognised state propped up by Russia.


Meanwhile,the death toll in the UKR east has reached Gaza proportions! UN stats. Why are there no bleeding heart Europeans/Wseterners crying for the slaughter to end? Because they're ethnic Russians and do no bring in votes from the Islamic votebanks?

Death toll in Ukraine conflict doubles in 2 weeks, reaches 2,086 - UN
Published time: August 13, 2014
http://rt.com/news/180020-ukraine-death-toll-un/

The number of killed and wounded in eastern Ukraine has doubled to 2,086 over the last two weeks, according to the UN’s “very conservative estimates”.
"This corresponds to a clear escalating trend," UN human rights spokeswoman Cecile Pouilly told Reuters in response to a query.

Over 60 people have been killed or wounded every day, Pouilly added.
Almost 5,000 have been wounded.
The figures comprise Ukrainian military, self-defense forces, and civilians. However, those are “very conservative estimates,” Pouilly said.

The Ukraine crisis has been widely described as a humanitarian catastrophe. According to the UN’s latest estimates, over 110,000 people have been internally displaced in the conflict. Moscow has reported that 730,000 people have fled across the border into Russia.

In Donetsk alone, more than 1,000 people have been left homeless due to the fighting, according to the city administration. In Lugansk, another regional center, 250,000 people can’t leave the city and have been without water, electricity, and communications for over a week.

The Russian humanitarian aid is set to arrive to the Russian-Ukrainian border by the end of Wednesday. However, the Ukrainian authorities repeatedly stated that they won’t allow the aid to pass – despite the Red Cross and the OSCE observers watching over the mission.


It is a singular game of chess being played out in the former UKR east.We are now seeing the end of the middle game and beginning of the end game.Grand Master Putin is moving his pieces brilliantly on the board.The UKR regime has now been exposed as a bunch of barbaric fascists no matter what propaganda the West/US put out.It cannot have double standards,sending relief aid to the yazidis and bombing ISIS,while attempting to prevent Russia from sending in humanitarian aid to the population of the Donetsk Republic.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby disha » 14 Aug 2014 06:11

udaym wrote:http://rt.com/business/179684-eu-latinamerica-sanctions-russia/

EU to urge Latin America not to export food to Russia
The European Union is reported to be planning to dissuade Latin American countries from providing Russia with agricultural produce, saying it would be unfair and ‘difficult to justify.’

“We will be talking to the countries that would potentially replacing our exports to indicate that we would expect them not to profit unfairly from the current situation,” the Financial Times (FT) quotes

:rotfl: what a bunch of hypocrites. EU continue to remind that unions are set up for pure goondagardi


It will be interesting to see UK urge Argentina to not export food to Russia.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Gagan » 14 Aug 2014 07:47

udaym wrote:http://rt.com/business/179684-eu-latinamerica-sanctions-russia/

EU to urge Latin America not to export food to Russia

“We will be talking to the countries that would potentially replacing our exports to indicate that we would expect them not to profit unfairly from the current situation,” the Financial Times (FT) quotes

:rotfl: what a bunch of hypocrites. EU continue to remind that unions are set up for pure goondagardi

The latin american countries should say that they will price the produce extremely low, so that they don't make undue profits.

Muhaaaaa :twisted:

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby RSoami » 14 Aug 2014 12:06

http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraines ... 1407960359

Ukraine Taps Volunteers Fueled by Anger, Bravado
Motley Battalions Include Some Fighters With Checkered Pasts

No fascists. Just some people with `checkered pass fueled by anger and bravado`.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby UlanBatori » 15 Aug 2014 05:50

Stock Market todin went up citing "conciliatory message from Putin" de-escalating Ukraine crisis. OTOH, Ulan Bator fishwrap showed pictures of Russian convoy heading into Russian-dominated East Ukraine. What gives?

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby UlanBatori » 15 Aug 2014 07:30

Weird. This is what triggered such a jump in the stock market?
Russia’s president, Vladimir V. Putin, in one of his more conciliatory speeches since the Ukraine conflict began, said Thursday in Crimea that Russia was monitoring what he called a “major humanitarian catastrophe” in eastern Ukraine. “We will do everything we can to help secure an end to this conflict as soon as possible, so that there will be no more bloodshed in Ukraine,” Mr. Putin told Russian lawmakers gathered in Yalta, according to a summary of his remarks on the Kremlin website.

"And that for every Ukrainian we shall provide one bottle of Stolichnaya"

But Ukrainian officials reacted with fury to Mr. Putin’s decision to present himself as a peacemaker while visiting Crimea. One suggested that Kiev might open a criminal case against the Russian president for “illegal entry” into Ukrainian territory.

Mr. Putin has previously made conciliatory remarks about Ukraine, only to continue what the Ukrainian government and its Western supporters have described as a steady stream of men and arms to the separatists to destabilize the country. Russia denies those accusations

But analysts said the speech seemed to signal that Mr. Putin wanted to avoid an open military confrontation over Ukraine. “It was indirect confirmation that Russia will not intervene,” said Fyodor Lukyanov, the editor of a Russian foreign affairs journal.
...

When it first announced what it described on Tuesday as a humanitarian mission to help residents of the eastern Ukrainian city of Luhansk, Moscow said the convoy would enter Ukraine through a border crossing controlled by Ukrainian authorities near Kharkiv. But, after a daylong pause Wednesday at a Russian military base near the town of Voronezh, the convoy on Thursday veered away from Kharkiv and instead moved toward a section of the frontier largely under the control of pro-Russian rebels.

But then the convoy was diverted to the military base near Kamensk-Shakhtinsky. Once there, the trucks parked in orderly formations, supervised by hundreds of young men, many with short-cropped hair, who said they were volunteers but would not say for which organization. Each was dressed in an identical beige hat, beige T-shirt and beige shorts.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby UlanBatori » 15 Aug 2014 07:37

Aha!
Russian military vehicles enter Ukraine as aid convoy stops short of border
Armoured personnel carriers and support vehicles cross the border, while the 280-truck convoy comes to a halt separately.

Armoured personnel carriers in Russia move towards the Ukraine border. Photograph: Shaun Walker

The white trucks of humanitarian aid rumbled through Russia in a convoy stretching for miles, moving slowly southwards on the M4 highway, amid a landscape of fertile fields and Ladas stopped at the roadside – their boots overflowing with watermelons for sale.

But, while the trucks came to a halt well short of Ukraine's border, a different Russian convoy did make the crossing into Ukrainian territory late on Thursday evening.

After pausing by the side of the road until nightfall, the convoy crossed into Ukrainian territory, using a rough dirt track and clearly crossing through a gap in a barbed wire fence that demarcates the border. Armed men were visible in the gloom by the border fence as the column moved into Ukraine. Kiev has lost control of its side of the border in this area.

The trucks are unlikely to represent a full-scale official Russian invasion, and it was unclear how far they planned to travel inside Ukrainian territory and how long they would stay. But it was incontrovertible evidence of what Ukraine has long claimed – that Russian troops are active inside its borders.

The Guardian saw a column of 23 armoured personnel carriers, supported by fuel trucks and other logistics vehicles[b][i] with official Russian military plates, travelling towards the border near the Russian town of Donetsk – about 200km away from Donetsk, Ukraine.[/i][/b]


Goodwill visit, no doubt. Nothing hidden about it, they are Official Red Army. Apparently the UkBapZis only object to Humanitarian Aid, the vodka-bearing kind is OK.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Gagan » 15 Aug 2014 08:12

Well UkBapZis are indulging in crass haramigiri (Pakistaniyat) by shelling eastern ukrainian towns. They're most probably the ones who shot down MH-17.
It is high time the Roosis brought out the big danda in the open to bring some order.

The netas in Kiev will be getting flashbacks of Georgia of a few years ago.

BTW: What is the meaning of UkBapZis?

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby habal » 15 Aug 2014 09:17

Ukrainian Baptist Zionist .. ?

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby RSoami » 15 Aug 2014 13:17

So the question is. When Russians can easily cross holes in barbed wire fences into Ukraine in armoured cars, as is now being reported by the western media, why would Putin try to send arms in humanitarian convoys ?!
Why this hysteria for three days since the convoy started from Moscow by the all knowing western governments and media.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby UlanBatori » 15 Aug 2014 17:09

AoA! Baptists cannot be Zionists!
UkBapZi == Ukrainian Baptist-Nazis

Much of the trouble was created by the Baptist etc conversionist invasion of Ukraine. Ukraine has evolved into a major center for the Male-Order Bride Trade, maybe also Female-Order-Bride trade with white carnations etc. Linked to American Baptist mega-cartels.

The Right Sector goons are basically Nazis, descendants/survivors of those who welcomed and joined the Nazis during WW-2, who helped round up the Jewish and other minorities for genocide, e.g., Massacre at Babi Yar (30,000 people shot/dumped into ditches that they were forced to dig in the forest). The only funny part of that is that eventually the paranoid Nazis also did the same to many of the Collaborators. But most survived.

Obviously the Russians were not terribly kind to the Nazi collaborators after liberation, and the hate has simmered, but again, like roaches, many have survived that era as well. When Ukraine became independent, these goons went to the major solace and funding source for Nazis, viz, the US White Supremacists/ aka Baptist megaCartels. Now they are well-funded, not that many goons, but it only takes a few well-armed, 400% ruthless goons to control a mostly peaceful population, as they have shown time and again throughout history. Early reports indicated that there were US-funded mercenariesContractors training and organizing the Right Sector.

Pretty open support for these came from the Conversionist/NeoCon elements in the State Department and the US Embassy in Kiev. Very obvious in recent times, and this is part of the reason why there was/is a EU/US divide: the US BapZis want to invade Ukraine and maybe nuke Russia, the EU not so keen to bring back Nazism, besides, France and Italy are mostly Catholic, and most Germans don't particularly love the Baptists either.

I think there is no future for ethnic Russians in Ukraine, and surely Putin recognizes that. The only decent solution is that vodka bottles come up to the Dnieper river, and maybe control both banks of that, and force Kiev to be evacuated. Then a peace-loving democratic government could rise in Kiev and obtain peaceful access through the Dnieper River, while East Ukraine merges with Russia.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby UlanBatori » 15 Aug 2014 17:23

RSoami wrote:So the question is. When Russians can easily cross holes in barbed wire fences into Ukraine in armoured cars, as is now being reported by the western media, why would Putin try to send arms in humanitarian convoys ?!
Why this hysteria for three days since the convoy started from Moscow by the all knowing western governments and media.


:rotfl: 280 ONLY 262 military trucks all painted clean white, with operators all in beige uniforms with shorts, carrying 400% peaceful BabyFood etc. Cruelly held up by the Right Sector goons, from reaching the hungry babies in East Ukraine. ICRC scrambling to point out that they are scrambling as fast as they can to get the items cleared, already have some personnel that have reached the area, more following as soon as they can finish their CIA training and get instructions in European culture from Inspecteure Clouseau of Le Surete.

All the attention focused on that tamasha, while the other stuff happily crosses the border elsewhere, treating the barbed wire fences like it's so much trash in the fields. I wonder why the barbed wire even has to be taken down, given that the APCs were spotted just driving along happily on roads - so this means that lots of stuff that does not need roads was also crossing the border.

I have the feeling that after these trucks reach well inside Ukraine, they may get a new paint job and come in handy for other purposes. But 262 is still very small number. At, say, 30 to a truck, that's only 7860 Vodka Bottles by Para-Courier (VBP-C). Barely enough to seal the Dnieper river crossings and cut off all the Ukraine "Army" east of that.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby RSoami » 15 Aug 2014 20:26

Yeah, If you believe everything that the west has to write. Sure, lots of stuff has been crossing.
And the motley group of fascist volunteers from western Ukraine are defeating special forces of Russia, armed and equipped by Russia, in Eastern Ukraine.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Ramesh » 15 Aug 2014 20:57

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/08/15/ukraine-russian-convoy/14097225/#
Ukrainian troops on Friday destroyed part of what Kiev says was a Russian armored convoy that crossed into Ukraine around the same time as a truck convoy of humanitarian aid reached the border, according to Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko's

"Appropriate actions were undertaken and a part of it no longer exist," Lysenko told reporters. He said the military convoy had been closely observed since crossing the border from Russia.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Philip » 15 Aug 2014 23:33

The UKR Chocolate soldier has claimed to have destroyed (non-existant) Russian "armoured forces" that crossed the border.meanwhile the Russian unarmed aid convoy rolls on towards the border and if attacked by UKR forces...the sh*t might truly hit the fan.
Seeing the truth and gravity of the situ as the indiscriminate bombing of Donetsk has horrified nations,with casualties as much as that of the Gaza assault,the US has called for restraint from its UKR puppet regime.But has the call for restraint come too little and too late.The next 24 hrs. will prove crucial. It appears that either the Russian aid convoy is allowed to enter the east,and wills et a precedent for future aid convoys preventing a UKR military "victory",or Russia will pull the plug,say its unarmed aid convoy has been brutally attacked and send in its forces to teach the UKR military a lesson learnt the hard way,just as the Georgians did.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... henko.html
Ukraine artillery destroys part of Russian armoured column, says Poroshenko
A "significant" part of the Russian armoured column that crossed into Ukraine on Thursday night has been destroyed by Ukrainian troops, the country's president tells David Cameron

http://rt.com/news/180568-harf-ukraine- ... -military/
US calls for restraint in Ukrainian army’s actions after deadly Donetsk shelling

The deputy spokesperson for the US Department of State Marie Harf has called restraint on the Ukrainian military’s actions in the east for the first time, following a major shelling of Donetsk that left at least 70 civilians dead.

“We’ve stressed the importance of showing restraint to minimize casualties among the civilian – the local population,” Harf said.
“We’ve called on the Ukrainians to take every step to avoid the local population as they try to free the city from the separatists,” she added.

In July, the US justified the use of airstrikes by the Ukrainian forces, stating that the army “is defending the country.”
Even during the latest briefing, despite the calls for restraint, Harf stressed the US support of Ukrainian authorities.

“We’ve called on them not to use weapons that could increase that. But again, we’re very supportive of the Ukrainians here. It’s a tough fight they’re in, and we do think that the ultimate goal here needs to be these cities not being under the control of the separatists,” she said.

The press briefing came after a heavy shelling in Donetsk that saw more than 80 people killed over the last few days. At least 116 others were wounded.

Published time: August 15, 2014

And Russia's warning...
Aid convoy to Ukraine faces disruption, may be attacked - Russia
Published time: August 15,
Moscow has information that the convoy delivering humanitarian aid to eastern Ukraine may be attacked by Kiev’s forces, with the “punitive” Aidar Battalion planning to mine the road that the vehicles will use, the Russian Foreign Ministry says.

On Friday, Moscow accused Ukraine of attempting to disrupt the humanitarian aid convoy now that the preparations for its delivery have reached their final stages and all key issues have been agreed upon.

“We draw attention to the sharp intensification of military actions by Ukrainian forces with the obvious goal to block the route, agreed upon with Kiev, of the humanitarian convoy from the Russia-Ukraine border to Lugansk,” the Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

In Moscow’s view, all this gives the impression that there are people both in Ukraine and abroad who are willing to disrupt the humanitarian mission, even “at the cost of new casualties and destruction.”
“Those nurturing such criminal plans are taking huge responsibility for their consequences,” the ministry said.


Russia sent a convoy of 280 trucks carrying humanitarian aid – such as medical supplies, food, including baby food, sleeping bags and other basic necessities – to conflict-torn southeastern Ukraine on Tuesday. The convoy is currently stuck near the Ukrainian border, and is awaiting final approval from Kiev before moving forward.

Russia also reiterated that it would carry out the agreements reached with the Ukrainian government and the ICRC on delivering aid to Donbass residents as quickly as possible and in full.

A convoy of Kamaz trucks carrying humanitarian aid for people in southeastern Ukraine in a rest area not far from Kamensk-Shakhtinsky in the Rostov Region. (RIA Novosti / Maksim Blinov)

“We are doing everything we can to provide security for this mission,” the Foreign Ministry said. Russia urged both the Kiev military and the east Ukrainian militia to immediately announce a ceasefire to allow the humanitarian convoy to reach Donbass residents.

Moscow said it hopes its efforts will receive support from the ICRC, the OSCE and the UN.

Humanitarian aid to the residents of the Ukrainian regions devastated by the ongoing fighting was also discussed on Friday in a phone conversation between the Ukrainian and Russian foreign ministers. They stressed that international organizations should take a “more efficient and responsible” part in the fulfillment of the humanitarian mission, the Russian Foreign Ministry said.

An immediate ceasefire is necessary to create humanitarian corridors for aid delivery and the evacuation of civilians from conflict zones in eastern Ukraine, Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu said, discussing the situation on the phone with his American counterpart, Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel.

The Russian aid convoy’s path to Ukraine has been rather thorny, as Kiev has kept debating whether it will accept it or not, and has feared it could be a “Trojan Horse.”
Aid convoy may pave way for ceasefire – Finland

Finnish President Sauli Niinisto, who met Friday with Vladimir Putin, said he hoped that the Russian aid convoy would pave the way for a ceasefire between the Kiev government and self-defense militias in eastern Ukraine.

Speaking after talks with the Russian president in Sochi, Niinisto said an agreement had been reached between Ukraine, Russia and the International Committee of the Red Cross to let the aid convoy enter eastern Ukraine, Reuters reported.

“We hope that this news is a testimony to the potential strengthening of mutual trust and we very much need this mutual trust to take the next step... That is for a ceasefire,” he said.

It was not immediately clear, however, whether the Finnish president, who spoke through a translator, was simply referring to an agreement between Moscow and Kiev that the mission could cross into Ukraine once it had been inspected, cleared and handed over to Red Cross supervision.

The ICRC in Geneva said it was not aware that any final agreement had been reached.
In a statement released earlier Friday, the organization said that Russia and Ukraine were finalizing practical details.

“As and when agreement is reached, we plan to deliver this humanitarian aid to people affected by conflict in eastern Ukraine, health facilities and other welfare organizations,” Laurent Corbaz, ICRC head of operations for Europe and Central Asia, said in a statement. “People are struggling to cope with limited access to basic services such as water and electricity, so speed is of the essence.”

In addition to a five-person ICRC team already present in the vicinity of the Russian convoy parked in the Rostov region, 15 more staff were also sent to the region. Another team was deployed to Starobelsk, in the Lugansk region, where a Ukrainian aid convoy of around 50 trucks arrived Friday, according to the ICRC statement.

The ICRC said they needed “assurances from all parties to the conflict that our staff will be allowed to perform their tasks safely and with due respect for our humanitarian principles.”

“Given the complex logistics and security challenges involved, this aid operation will take some time and we call on the authorities of both countries to do all they can to resolve outstanding issues quickly,” Corbaz said.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Surya » 16 Aug 2014 01:40

yeah apparently the Russian army just took hits from Ukie arty without retaliating :P

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby chanakyaa » 16 Aug 2014 03:55

The netas in Kiev will be getting flashbacks of Georgia of a few years ago.

I did not follow Georgia episode as closely and in the same way. How does Rooskie response now compare to that to Georgia? Of course, Ookraine much bigger country with stronger backing.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby UlanBatori » 16 Aug 2014 05:11

The dictator of Georgia sent tanks through a city where the people were mostly ethnic Russians, first shelling the downtown area to smithereens, apparently using even firebombing. People were burned in their basement shelters, estimate over 2000 dead.

Putin sent a good consignment of vodka. A few thousand Georgian troops were found dead from vodka consumption in the forests, and Georgia found itself much more compact and right-sized. Georgian dictator was found to be hiding in the cellars with the Russian Air Force commanding the air overhead.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Gagan » 16 Aug 2014 05:47

This was back in August 2008.
The Georgians were conducting what amounted to attacking ethinic russians in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Also NATO was egging the Georgian dictator to take on the Russians. There were a lot of refugees that left these areas into Russia it seems.
The Russians launched a military assault with tanks, APCs with Air support, on several central Georgian towns, in South Ossetia, north west of the capital. They had to get into South Ossetia (Georgia) via the Roki Tunnel, and they suffered some casulties there.
The Russians had near total air dominance, and they assaulted via the sea from the west in Abkhazia. They also deployed Spetsnaz paratroopers in that area.
Image

All in all a sound thrashing to the Georgian dictator.

Russia, Nicaragua and Venezuela declared that Abkhazia and South Ossetia were independent countries. The west did a lot of lobbying to prevent anyone else recognizing them. The Russians still have troops, S-300 missiles deployed in these regions to the day.
Georgia calls Abkhazia and South Ossetia, Russian Occupied Territories.

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby UlanBatori » 16 Aug 2014 06:44

Aha! R.O.T. I see!

So East Ukraine and Crimea are ROT. Kiev and West Ukraine are merely ROT-TEN (Rightsector-Occupied-Territory-Totally European Nazis)

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Gagan » 16 Aug 2014 06:48

LOL!

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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby Austin » 16 Aug 2014 10:56


anmol
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Joined: 05 May 2009 17:39

Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Postby anmol » 16 Aug 2014 17:46

The West on the wrong path
handelsblatt.com | Aug 1st 2014

von Gabor Steingart

Every war is accompanied by a kind of mental mobilization: war fever. Even smart people are not immune to controlled bouts of this fever. “This war in all its atrociousness is still a great and wonderful thing. It is an experience worth having“ rejoiced Max Weber in 1914 when the lights went out in Europe. Thomas Mann felt a “cleansing, liberation, and a tremendous amount of hope“.

Even when thousands already lay dead on the Belgian battle fields, the war fever did not subside. Exactly 100 years ago, 93 painters, writers, and scientists composed the “Call to the world of culture.“ Max Liebermann, Gerhart Hauptmann, Max Planck, Wilhelm Röntgen, and others encouraged their countrymen to engage in cruelty towards their neighbor: “Without German militarism, German culture would have been swept from the face of the earth a long time ago. The German armed forces and the German people are one. This awareness makes 70 million Germans brothers without prejudice to education, status, or party.“

We interrupt our own train of thought: “History is not repeating itself!” But can we be so sure about that these days? In view of the war events in the Crimean and eastern Ukraine, the heads of states and governments of the West suddenly have no more questions and all the answers. The US Congress is openly discussing arming Ukraine. The former security advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski recommends arming the citizens there for house-to-house and street combat. The German Chancellor, as it is her habit, is much less clear but no less ominous: “We are ready to take severe measures.“

German journalism has switched from level-headed to agitated in a matter of weeks. The spectrum of opinions has been narrowed to the field of vision of a sniper scope.

Newspapers we thought to be all about thoughts and ideas now march in lock-step with politicians in their calls for sanctions against Russia's President Putin. Even the headlines betray an aggressive tension as is usually characteristic of hooligans when they 'support' their respective teams.

The Tagesspiegel: “Enough talk!“ The FAZ: “Show strength“. The Süddeutsche Zeitung: “Now or never.“ The Spiegel calls for an “End to cowardice“: “Putin's web of lies, propaganda, and deception has been exposed. The wreckage of MH 17 is also the result of a crashed diplomacy.“

Western politics and German media agree.

Every reflexive string of accusations results in the same outcome: in no time allegations and counter-allegations become so entangled that the facts become almost completely obscured.
Who deceived who first?

Did it all start with the Russian invasion of the Crimean or did the West first promote the destabilization of the Ukraine? Does Russia want to expand into the West or NATO into the East? Or did maybe two world-powers meet at the same door in the middle of the night, driven by very similar intentions towards a defenseless third that now pays for the resulting quagmire with the first phases of a civil war?

If at this point you are still waiting for an answer as to whose fault it is, you might as well just stop reading. You will not miss anything. We are not trying to unearth this hidden truth. We don't know how it started. We don't know how it will end. And we are sitting right here, in the middle of it. At least Peter Sloterdijk has a few words of consolation for us: “To live in the world means to live in uncertainty.“

Our purpose is to wipe off some of the foam that has formed on the debating mouths, to steal words from the mouths of both the rabble-rousers and the roused, and put new words there instead. One word that has become disused of late is this: realism.

The politics of escalation show that Europe sorely misses a realistic goal. It's a different thing in the US. Threats and posturing are simply part of the election preparations. When Hillary Clinton compares Putin with Hitler, she does so only to appeal to the Republican vote, i.e. people who do not own a passport. For many of them, Hitler is the only foreigner they know, which is why Adolf Putin is a very welcome fictitious campaign effigy. In this respect, Clinton and Obama have a realistic goal: to appeal to the people, to win elections, to win another Democratic presidency.

Angela Merkel can hardly claim these mitigating circumstances for herself. Geography forces every German Chancellor to be a bit more serious. As neighbors of Russia, as part of the European community bound in destiny, as recipient of energy and supplier of this and that, we Germans have a clearly more vital interest in stability and communication. We cannot afford to look at Russia through the eyes of the American Tea Party.

Every mistake starts with a mistake in thinking. And we are making this mistake if we believe that only the other party profits from our economic relationship and thus will suffer when this relationship stops. If economic ties were maintained for mutual profit, then severing them will lead to mutual loss. Punishment and self-punishment are the same thing in this case.

Even the idea that economic pressure and political isolation would bring Russia to its knees was not really thought all the way through. Even if we could succeed: what good would Russia be on its knees? How can you want to live together in the European house with a humiliated people whose elected leadership is treated like a pariah and whose citizens you might have to support in the coming winter.

Of course, the current situation requires a strong stance, but more than anything a strong stance against ourselves. Germans have neither wanted nor caused these realities, but they are now our realities. Just consider what Willy Brandt had to listen to when his fate as mayor of Berlin placed him in the shadow of the wall. What sanctions and punishments were suggested to him. But he decided to forgo this festival of outrage. He never turned the screw of retribution.

When he was awarded the Noble Prize for Peace he shed light on what went on around him in the hectic days when the wall was built: “There is still another aspect – that of impotence disguised by verbalism: taking a stand on legal positions which cannot become a reality and planning counter-measures for contingencies that always differ from the one at hand. At critical times we were left to our own devices; the verbalists had nothing to offer.“

The verbalists are back and their headquarters are in Washington D.C. But nobody is forcing us to kowtow to their orders. Following this lead – even if calculatingly and somewhat reluctantly as in the case of Merkel – does not protect the German people, but may well endanger it. This fact remains a fact even if it was not the American but the Russians who were responsible for the original damage in the Crimean and in eastern Ukraine.

Willy Brandt decided clearly differently than Merkel in the present, and that in a clearly more intense situation. As he recalls, he had awoken on the morning of August 13, 1961 “wide awake and at the same time numb“. He had stopped over in Hanover on a trip when he received reports from Berlin about work being done on the large wall separating the city. It was a Sunday morning and the humiliation could hardly be greater for a sitting mayor.

The Soviets had presented him with a fait accompli. The Americans had not informed him even though they had probably received some information from Moscow. Brandt remembers that an “impotent rage“ had risen in him. But what did he do? He reined in his feelings of impotence and displayed his great talent as reality-based politician which would garner him a stint as Chancellor and finally also the Nobel Prize for Peace.

With the advice from Egon Bahr, he accepted the new situation, knowing that no amount of outrage from the rest of the world would bring this wall down again for a while. He even ordered the West-Berlin police to use batons and water cannons against demonstrators at the wall in order not to slip from the catastrophe of division into the much greater catastrophe of war. He strove for the paradox which Bahr put as follows later: “We acknowledged the Status Quo in order to change it.“

And they managed to accomplish this change. Brandt and Bahr made the specific interests of the West Berlin population for who they were now responsible (from June 1962 onwards this also included this author) into the measure of their politics.

In Bonn they negotiated the Berlin subvention, an eight-percent tax-free subvention on payroll and income tax. In the vernacular it was called the “fear premium“. They also negotiated a travel permit treaty with East Berlin which made the wall permeable again two years after it was put up. Between Christmas 1963 and New Year’s 1964, 700 000 inhabitants of Berlin visited their relatives in the east of the city. Every tear of joy turned into a vote for Brandt a short while later.

The voters realized that here was someone who wanted to affect the way they lived every day, not just generate a headline for the next morning. In an almost completely hopeless situation, this SPD man fought for western values – in this case the values of freedom of movement – without bullhorns, without sanctions, without the threat of violence. The elite in Washington started hearing words that had never been heard in politics before: Compassion. Change through rapprochement. Dialog. Reconciliation of interests. And this in the middle of the Cold War, when the world powers were supposed to attack each other with venom, when the script contained only threats and protestations; set ultimatums, enforce sea blockades, conduct representative wars, this is how the Cold War was supposed to be run.

A German foreign policy striving for reconciliation – in the beginning only the foreign policy of Berlin – not only appeared courageous but also very strange.

The Americans – Kennedy, Johnson, then Nixon – followed the German; it kicked off a process which is unparalleled in the history of enemy nations. Finally, there was a meeting in Helsinki in order to set down the rules. The Soviet Union was guaranteed “non-interference into their internal affairs“ which filled party boss Leonid Brezhnev with satisfaction and made Franz Josef Strauß's blood boil. In return, the Moscow Communist Party leadership had to guarantee the West (and thus their own civil societies) “respect of human rights and fundamental freedoms, including that of thought, conscience, religion or belief“.

In this way “non-interference“ was bought through “involvement“. Communism had received an eternal guarantee for its territory, but within its borders universal human rights suddenly began to brew. Joachim Gauck remembers: “The word that allowed my generation to go on was Helsinki.“

It is not too late for the duo Merkel/Steinmeier to use the concepts and ideas of this time. It does not make sense to just follow the strategically idea-less Obama. Everyone can see how he and Putin are driving like in a dream directly towards a sign which reads: Dead End.

“The test for politics is not how something starts but how it ends“, so Henry Kissinger, also a Peace Nobel Prize winner. After the occupation of the Crimean by Russia he stated: we should want reconciliation, not dominance. Demonizing Putin is not a policy. It is an alibi for the lack thereof. He advises condensing conflicts, i.e. to make them smaller, shrink them, and then distill them into a solution.

At the moment (and for a long time before that) America is doing the opposite. All conflicts are escalated. The attack of a terror group named Al Qaida is turned into a global campaign against Islam. Iraq is bombed using dubious justifications. Then the US Air Force flies on to Afghanistan and Pakistan. The relationship to the Islamic world can safely be considered damaged.

If the West had judged the then US government which marched into Iraq without a resolution by the UN and without proof of the existence of “WMDs“ by the same standards as today Putin, then George W. Bush would have immediately been banned from entering the EU. The foreign investments of Warren Buffett should have been frozen, the export of vehicles of the brands GM, Ford, and Chrysler banned.

The American tendency to verbal and then also military escalation, the isolation, demonization, and attacking of enemies has not proven effective. The last successful major military action the US conducted was the Normandy landing. Everything else – Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan – was a clear failure. Moving NATO units towards the Polish border and thinking about arming Ukraine is a continuation of a lack of diplomacy by the military means.

This policy of running your head against the wall – and doing so exactly where the wall is the thickest – just gives you a head ache and not much else. And this considering that the wall has a huge door in the relationship of Europe to Russia. And the key to this door is labeled “reconciliation of interests“.

The first step is what Brandt called “compassion“, i.e. the ability to see the world through the eyes of the others. We should stop accusing the 143 million Russian that they look at the world differently than John McCain.
What is needed is help in modernizing the country, no sanctions which will further decrease the dearth of wealth and damage the bond of relationships. Economic relationships are also relationships. International cooperation is akin to tenderness between nations because everyone feels better afterwards.

It is well-known that Russia is an energy super-power and at the same time a developing industrial nation. The policy of reconciliation and mutual interests should attack here. Development aid in return for territorial guarantees; Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier even had the right words to describe this: modernization partnership. He just has to dust it off and use it as an aspirational word. Russia should be integrated, not isolated. Small steps in that direction are better than the great nonsense of exclusionary politics.

Brandt and Bahr have never reached for the tool of economic sanctions. They knew why: there are no recorded cases in which countries under sanctions apologized for their behavior and were obedient ever after. On the contrary: collective movements start in support of the sanctioned, as is the case today in Russia. The country was hardly ever more unified behind their president than now. This could almost lead you to think that the rabble-rousers of the West are on the payroll of the Russian secret service.

One more comment about the tone of the debate. The annexation of the Crimean was in violation of international law. The support of separatists in eastern Ukraine also does not mesh with our ideas of the state sovereignty. The boundaries of states are inviolable.

But every act requires context. And the German context is that we are a society on probation which may not act as if violations of international law started with the events in the Crimean.

Germany has waged war against its eastern neighbor twice in the past 100 years. The German soul, which we generally claim to be on the romantic side, showed its cruel side.

Of course, we who came later can continue to proclaim our outrage against the ruthless Putin and appeal to international law against him, but the way things are this outrage should come with a slight blush of embarrassment. Or to use the words of Willy Brandt: “Claims to absolutes threaten man.“

In the end, even the men who had succumbed to war fever in 1914 had to realize this. After the end of the war, the penitent issued a second call, this time to understanding between nations: “The civilized world became a war camp and battle field. It is time that a great tide of love replaces the devastating wave of hatred.“

We should try to avoid the detour via the battle fields in the 21st century. History does not have to repeat itself. Maybe we can find a shortcut.


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