India Media role in contempt and derision about India

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arshyam
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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby arshyam » 27 Feb 2014 20:15

UlanBatori wrote:3) BRFees can rant and rave and chest-thump, but that at best informs a few lurkers on BRF. Pretty low ROI.

I am lost for alternatives, like the slave in the hold of the Cruise Ship coming from West Africa in the 1800s:
I once was lost.. but now ah'm even more lost..


UB saar, if I may, can I suggest that BR folks take one or two Indian news portals, and start posting comments on articles that have a western slant? Nothing major, say one or 2 comments posted a week should be enough. This is what I do whenever I find time, but I am unable to post comments on a lot of portals due to time constraints. It is a small thing, but who knows? As they say in Tamil, 'siru thuli, peru vellam' (small drops make an ocean). Hopefully, more people start thinking differently and criticize the media outlets for pandering to western interests.

I suppose we could post on western sites like BBC, CNN, WSJ too, but those probably make less difference. I recollect a few fellow active nationalist posters on WSJ when the DK arrests happened, so there are other folks outside BR who feel the same way, but that hasn't changed WSJ's tone.

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby sbangera » 28 Feb 2014 14:18

shiv wrote:
panduranghari wrote:
@rajivmalhotra Sepoy is a special kind of crony: serving the cause of Western Universalism imposed upon Indians. A perfectly fine term just like 'crony'

Yes sepoy is a good term.


How about "Presstitutes?

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby Virupaksha » 28 Feb 2014 19:38

sbangera wrote:
How about "Presstitutes?

One important consideration should be the word should be usable in hallowed halls.

ramana
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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby ramana » 01 Mar 2014 01:14

BRF word for such behavior is SLIME = Self Loathing Indian Media

shiv
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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby shiv » 02 Mar 2014 10:29

One certain way of demeaning India is to consider India as equal to the worst in the world - or to portray India as a "rival" to the worst in the world.

We like to boast that India tends to conjure up positive images and that Pakistan tends to evoke images of the Taliban, terrorism and murder.

But here we have an Indian news portal, NDTV, no less that seems to takle pride in making India and Pakistan "equal-equal" by borrowing terminology that was invented for India and Pakistan by western media. Indian media, including NDTV are so full of themsleves that they are unable to see how the help to demena India by such headlines

Asia Cup: India lock horns with arch-rivals Pakistan in make-or-break clash

Even educated Indians who pride themselves as being part of an Indian media portal are naive lambs in their utter inability to see how stupid this equal-equal looks. How come South Africa, Australia or the West Indies are not our "arch rivals". They are when it comes to cricket. But Pakistan are called arch rivals because the ideological and violent antagonism is pasted onto cricket and then the excuse is 'oh its about cricket, why are you bringing in geopolitics"

That is rubbish. It is the geopolitics that made western media see India Pakistan as equal equal. NDTV have simply internalized that and are perpetuating the image that India and Pakistan are somehow equal. Indian media giants are insufferably dumb.

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby shiv » 02 Mar 2014 10:57

Private Indian citizens are not free from the desire to take a pot shot at India because there are always waiting cheerleaders who will agree when someone posts some derogatory or denigrating stuff about India. As the volume of negative reports about India builds up, it gets easier and easier to say things because everyone agrees and no one disagrees. Making taunts and insinuations about India and Indians like that LA Times article being discussed elsewhere becomes the norm. Any objection receives a torrent of verbal responses that speak of the dangerous rise of "Hindu nationalism". I speak up because I disagree. I think self denigrating Indians need a tongue self-check.

It is liberal, fashionable and enjoyable to cook up or simply talk about anything negative regarding India and Indians. Lots of people to agree and not enough self respecting Indians who speak up to disagree, or those that have disagreed have been beaten into submission by erudite critics.

From BRF:

Hehe and Indians are wetting in their pants to give few missiles to Vietnam ! Supa dupa power.


Western experts rate the Pakis being better trained; as seen on some sites like FAS.org. And, Major MH AMIN's book says the Pakis were confident against superior Indian Numbers on the basis of "better training / quality of troops". Further, the PA website on Training Institutions is better organized, with training schedule and eligibility listed, compared to our IA Website, which, IMHO, is quite crappy. Being an ally of Unkil and with exchange programmes in good stead, there may be no shortage of training material and manuals. So, could the general perception abt IA being qualitatively superior be just a myth, a type of Military Bluster and a lot of hot air?


From the LA Times

Shashank Bengali wrote:The Hindu epic "Ramayana" features a 10-headed villain, a magical golden deer and the flying monkey god Hanuman. But when an American religion scholar described the canonical poem as fictional, some religious conservatives were shocked.

Angered by what they called an insulting, inaccurate and sexualized depiction of India's predominant faith by University of Chicago divinity professor Wendy Doniger, Hindu activists waged a four-year court battle against her book "The Hindus: An Alternative History." This month, Doniger's India publisher, a branch of Penguin Random House, agreed to settle the lawsuit by recalling and destroying all unsold copies of the book.

http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-indi ... z2umZ0W7pi

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby JE Menon » 02 Mar 2014 12:44

Comments on the LA Times article are getting interesting... The latest, apparently by a Scandinavian called Bjorn Biglund, cuts loose across the board... The Scandinavians are, of course, famous for being atheistic as societies...

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby shiv » 02 Mar 2014 14:44

JE Menon wrote:Comments on the LA Times article are getting interesting... The latest, apparently by a Scandinavian called Bjorn Biglund, cuts loose across the board... The Scandinavians are, of course, famous for being atheistic as societies...

Biglund and Nussbugger have made some good points in response. I urge other people to post their views there.

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby JE Menon » 02 Mar 2014 22:33

Seems they have taken the comments section off... No longer visible or clickable

arshyam
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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby arshyam » 02 Mar 2014 23:26

^^ It is there sir, but seems to be a bug with their system. It doesn't load comments sometimes. I tried this link from shiv sir's post, and it seems to work most of the time: From the LA Times

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby Prem » 03 Mar 2014 03:06

Indian Media's Medea Mind Makeup = India's Nindiya ( Ninda/insult/bakcbitting/bad mouthing ) Media .

They dont consider themselves Indian but some sort of secular South Asian Subedars. Best to call them Foreign Media.

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby UlanBatori » 03 Mar 2014 04:04

Still very much there. I am waiting to see how much they will censor Free Speech. :rotfl: But they now apparently claim (when my evil 6th coujin tried to post comments), that it is "unauthorized access" though the userid, pw and zip are 400% halal. :((


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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby ashish raval » 03 Mar 2014 04:59

shiv wrote:Private Indian citizens are not free from the desire to take a pot shot at India because there are always waiting cheerleaders who will agree when someone posts some derogatory or denigrating stuff about India. As the volume of negative reports about India builds up, it gets easier and easier to say things because everyone agrees and no one disagrees. Making taunts and insinuations about India and Indians like that LA Times article being discussed elsewhere becomes the norm. Any objection receives a torrent of verbal responses that speak of the dangerous rise of "Hindu nationalism". I speak up because I disagree. I think self denigrating Indians need a tongue self-check.

It is liberal, fashionable and enjoyable to cook up or simply talk about anything negative regarding India and Indians. Lots of people to agree and not enough self respecting Indians who speak up to disagree, or those that have disagreed have been beaten into submission by erudite critics.

From BRF:

Hehe and Indians are wetting in their pants to give few missiles to Vietnam ! Supa dupa power.






I can see the above post by me being used to construct an argument against Indian citizens living abroad. So let me tell you something, indian citizens abroad are more Indians than many could ever be living in India. They buy Indian grocery/food/clothes, Indian Jewellery, send fx,buy Indian real estate and also help their siblings in India to higher studies fees/establish business and succeed and settle them abroad if they choose to leave. All of the above comes at a cost much higher than buying local country food or clothes (and only thinking about self) which is way too cheaper than eating imported wheat flour, ok !! (I.e. Tesco wheat flour costs 5£ for 20 kg while pills bury or shaktibhog will set me back £15 for 20kg). Again the argument that returns in India are much higher and thereby they do it is frankly ridiculous. If that was the case, everybody in the world would have been sprinting to India which is not the case at all. NRI can invest anywhere in the whole world and get returns equal or better than they can get in India and that is a fact. Ask raghuram rajan if you don't believe me. I don't want to get into slugfest on returns on here. The idea is to help India in every little way we can. Oh and above all there are less NRI desh drohi's than you would find in India.
But perhaps you have a different theory. If a person living in India ridicules the policy by its government it is passed as domestic resentment while if person outside does the same, it becomes pot shot ! Don't really expect judgement being passed upon people based upon their place of stay. Seems like double standard.
What I can infer from the argument is your extremely swift, short sighted and judgemental conclusion about Indian community abroad. Let me get even here, The truth is the society back home is way too negative than few naive Indians abroad could be and your above construct could very well be to protect that truth. This to me is not productive approach by any means. Not sure but I may well have to find out if there is any pattern on your thoughts about NRI by reading your old posts in spare time.

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby shiv » 03 Mar 2014 06:39

ashish raval wrote:
I can see the above post by me being used to construct an argument against Indian citizens living abroad. .

Nonsense. You are imagining things. It was not necessary for you to say that you live abroad and believe that Indians living abroad are in many ways superior to those who live in India. Yet you choose to do that.

That is an interesting point of view for me.

To me your post represents exactly the point I had been trying to make in the past, although not in the post you responded to. You like to call yourself Indian, but yet you consider yourself as being something superior to all other Indians, especially those living in India. I have pointed out the existence of this attitude many times before on this forum, but rarely have I seen anyone illustrate and prove my own point in a reply to to me as clearly as you have done. For that at least I am grateful, even though I have still not figured out why Indians need to go abroad to feel good about themselves and then look back at the old country and say "I am better now". Why not simply cut all ties with India and remain loyal and grateful to the host country that makes you what you are rather than thumbing a nose at other Indians and saying "Hah - look how much I can spend and how much I can invest?"

That is something I am trying to figure out. Why the split loyalty? Why not simply be a good citizen of Britain, with no need to show allegiance to the land that gave you nothing and remains backward? Does your success not stand out on its own? Instead does it stand out only in comparison to useless India and Indians as you seem to indicate in your post? You are lucky to have been accepted by a former world power - Britain, as a successful and equal citizen, and I believe that you could choose to discard your past, and your links with a third rate nation. You don't need India, even if you think you and Britain are aiding India. Why do you return only to mock? You don't need two countries. The one that enables you to buy things at high prices is your country. I am sure you can be perfectly happy there, without having to look back at the old beggar nation to reassure yourself about your runaway financial success. You can afford that country and you have ownership of that country. Why do you believe you need to exert some influence on India? And, given your attitude, do you seriously expect silent, uncritical gratitude from India? That is exactly the attitude taken by western nations who have either given their culture to India, or civilized India or have thrown some money at India. You have completely adopted, internalized and digested the attitudes of the west. What makes you Indian with such an attitude?

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby rgsrini » 03 Mar 2014 07:51

Ashish Raval wrote:All of the above comes at a cost much higher than buying local country food or clothes (and only thinking about self) which is way too cheaper than eating imported wheat flour, ok !! (I.e. Tesco wheat flour costs 5£ for 20 kg while pills bury or shaktibhog will set me back £15 for 20kg). Again the argument that returns in India are much higher and thereby they do it is frankly ridiculous. If that was the case, everybody in the world would have been sprinting to India which is not the case at all. NRI can invest anywhere in the whole world and get returns equal or better than they can get in India and that is a fact. Ask raghuram rajan if you don't believe me



Wow! Didn't realize that you do so much sacrifice to "save India". Thanks a lot sirji... India and Indians should fall at your feet and be at your service for ever! It does make you more Indian than the thankless Indians living in India.

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby ashish raval » 03 Mar 2014 13:15

shiv wrote:
ashish raval wrote:
I can see the above post by me being used to construct an argument against Indian citizens living abroad. .

Nonsense. You are imagining things. It was not necessary for you to say that you live abroad and believe that Indians living abroad are in many ways superior to those who live in India. Yet you choose to do that.

That is an interesting point of view for me.

To me your post represents exactly the point I had been trying to make in the past, although not in the post you responded to. You like to call yourself Indian, but yet you consider yourself as being something superior to all other Indians, especially those living in India. I have pointed out the existence of this attitude many times before on this forum, but rarely have I seen anyone illustrate and prove my own point in a reply to to me as clearly as you have done. For that at least I am grateful, even though I have still not figured out why Indians need to go abroad to feel good about themselves and then look back at the old country and say "I am better now". Why not simply cut all ties with India and remain loyal and grateful to the host country that makes you what you are rather than thumbing a nose at other Indians and saying "Hah - look how much I can spend and how much I can invest?"

That is something I am trying to figure out. Why the split loyalty? Why not simply be a good citizen of Britain, with no need to show allegiance to the land that gave you nothing and remains backward? Does your success not stand out on its own? Instead does it stand out only in comparison to useless India and Indians as you seem to indicate in your post? You are lucky to have been accepted by a former world power - Britain, as a successful and equal citizen, and I believe that you could choose to discard your past, and your links with a third rate nation. You don't need India, even if you think you and Britain are aiding India. Why do you return only to mock? You don't need two countries. The one that enables you to buy things at high prices is your country. I am sure you can be perfectly happy there, without having to look back at the old beggar nation to reassure yourself about your runaway financial success. You can afford that country and you have ownership of that country. Why do you believe you need to exert some influence on India? And, given your attitude, do you seriously expect silent, uncritical gratitude from India? That is exactly the attitude taken by western nations who have either given their culture to India, or civilized India or have thrown some money at India. You have completely adopted, internalized and digested the attitudes of the west. What makes you Indian with such an attitude?


Now you are trying to make it personal to me (or perhaps it was always intended to be). I had not started it, you did as your comments were clearly in the context about the LA times article where Indian citizens abroad posts their views. You have made judgement about attitude of NRi's in the above post here. Now I don't want to indulge in discussion of attitude of my own countrymen living in India on this matter or else this place will get indulged again in east vs. west debate. Your post conveys your feelings very well above. Why don't you tell people from who are living in India to be loyal to India first rather than lecturing and questions Indians living abroad to prove their loyalty to their karmabhumi rather than matrubhumi. I don't have to prove to anyone where my loyalty lies. Go and first question to Sonia Gandhi or Kashmiri's to prove their loyalty and then come to me. I have seen worst comments by Indians living in India about India than my post meant to be. My post was mere to highlight a simple point that our babus either don't understand gravitas of situation or have shut down eyes like cats do and say I don't see anything coming ! And I don't see anything deriding about highlighting that.

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby shiv » 03 Mar 2014 14:23

ashish raval wrote: Why don't you tell people from who are living in India to be loyal to India first rather than lecturing and questions Indians living abroad to prove their loyalty to their karmabhumi rather than matrubhumi. I don't have to prove to anyone where my loyalty lies.

No your loyalty is split between Britain and India. You have already made a post about your wealth, status and choices in Britain. You don't need India, but you choose to take as much of India as you please, and in whatever way you please based on old links, while you retain what you like about Britain with justifiable pride in your adopted country. To that extent you are no different from the person in Karachi who has family in India, whose loyalty is split between India and Pakistan. He lives in Pakistan as a proud citizen of Pakistan, and wishes that India would change to suit his world view. That person in Karachi has as much of a right to dictate what Indians should be doing as you do having made the choice to live in Pakistan and then look back at India's faults as you have done, and lecturing or mocking Indians just like you are doing. He too might believe, as you do, that people and leaders in India are no good and that he, living in Karachi, knows what is better. If an Indian in India hears a lecture from you and also hears one from the chap in Karachi, who should be believed as the person whose advice is better?

I am sure this analogy is hurtful to you, but that is what it looks like from where I sit. Please tell me why such an analogy is wrong. I am willing to learn.


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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby ShauryaT » 03 Mar 2014 19:18

shiv wrote:No your loyalty is split between Britain and India.
The question of split loyalty will arise only if the person in question is a NRI, such as myself and for those who have chosen to forego their Indian Citizenship, their loyalty has to be to the state they have chosen to become part of. There is a very straight forward relationship between loyalty to a state and the expectation that the state in turn would protect its citizens. This is a mutual and exclusive relationship. Splits are not allowed by most. Confusing cultural choices, familial ties and goodwill with loyalty is a grave mistake.

For NRI's the longer they stay outside, the more rooted they become to a foreign land and the degree of their sense of loyalty to India will invariably be compromised and for most severely so. On a personal note, it is very boring to hear the same old whines about India from NRI's and PIO's and all the wonderful things that NRI's have done for India. Added: My experience is MOST NRI's in the west have a minimal sense of loyalty to the Republic of India and do take up citizenship of a foreign state as soon as the opportunity to do so materializes or when hard choices are to be made. For most, the choice is about what is most convenient to their personal interests and allegiance to a far away state and former home is a low priority.

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby shiv » 03 Mar 2014 21:46

ShauryaT wrote:For NRI's the longer they stay outside, the more rooted they become to a foreign land and the degree of their sense of loyalty to India will invariably be compromised and for most severely so.

Perfectly natural and entirely understandable. You cannot sit in a foreign country and sing Jana Gana mana every day for 20 years

It is primarily the Indians in India who are needlessly cursing India whom I was concerned with in this thread. Of course some of them might live abroad and pour out their crap from there, but if they have a dual allegiance their viewpoint is understandable, although I would still object to silly and needless comments. If you are a citizen of a foreign country you are a citizen of that country and any allegiance you show to that country cannot be described as being a sepoy. Sepoys/SLIME/DIE are Indians with no other nationality who bitterly rail against India at the slightest notice. But Indians who hold citizenship of a foreign country can certainly display classic sepoy mentality and they can be used by foreign media to give an "Indian colour" to critcism. I am referring to the Angana Chatterji types.

As I stated earlier when there are a whole lot of people, foreign commentators (Pakis BBC, CNN), derisive Indians in India (SLIME/DIE/Sepoys) etc making nasty remarks about India and Indians continuously and relentlessly - all of them claim that they mean well for India and that India should learn from them. Even Pakis do that. When the volume of such comments is large - every man and his uncle can get away with making a potshot and then claim that he is the most well meaning person on earth and Indians need to learn from him.

The point is that such derisive potshots are unnecessary in an environment in which India takes a lot of "hits" about caste, slavery, badbad Hindus. The entire space in which people can post information is filled with comments that say something about stupid India, Indians or India laws or people, or their habits, their food, their air, their language, their smell etc. This has to end somewhere.

A person proudly defending his right to do that on here is definitely going to get called out.

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby Vayutuvan » 03 Mar 2014 22:19

JE Menon wrote:Seems they have taken the comments section off... No longer visible or clickable

It is still there but there seems to be a problem with the display. Sometimes the comments come some time they don't.

Oh, Missmarple and nurse x have gone quiet after after Ralphy's warning and the paki question to marple :)

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby ashish raval » 04 Mar 2014 00:06

shiv wrote:
ashish raval wrote: Why don't you tell people from who are living in India to be loyal to India first rather than lecturing and questions Indians living abroad to prove their loyalty to their karmabhumi rather than matrubhumi. I don't have to prove to anyone where my loyalty lies.

No your loyalty is split between Britain and India. You have already made a post about your wealth, status and choices in Britain. You don't need India, but you choose to take as much of India as you please, and in whatever way you please based on old links, while you retain what you like about Britain with justifiable pride in your adopted country. To that extent you are no different from the person in Karachi who has family in India, whose loyalty is split between India and Pakistan. He lives in Pakistan as a proud citizen of Pakistan, and wishes that India would change to suit his world view. That person in Karachi has as much of a right to dictate what Indians should be doing as you do having made the choice to live in Pakistan and then look back at India's faults as you have done, and lecturing or mocking Indians just like you are doing. He too might believe, as you do, that people and leaders in India are no good and that he, living in Karachi, knows what is better. If an Indian in India hears a lecture from you and also hears one from the chap in Karachi, who should be believed as the person whose advice is better?

I am sure this analogy is hurtful to you, but that is what it looks like from where I sit. Please tell me why such an analogy is wrong. I am willing to learn.


That is incorrect. You have made fundamental error in assuming that I am citizen of Britain. On the contrary, I have chosen not to be a citizen of Britain although I have the option to become one. Additionally, I have never spoken or flaunted anything good about Britain and you are free to sift through my old posts to prove that otherwise. You are taking things out of context to prove a point. But even that does not take away my fundamental right to criticise my country on anything which is wrong.

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby ramana » 04 Mar 2014 00:16

ashish, why are you taking this personally to a general comment?

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby Raja Bose » 04 Mar 2014 02:29

ShauryaT wrote:My experience is MOST NRI's in the west have a minimal sense of loyalty to the Republic of India and do take up citizenship of a foreign state as soon as the opportunity to do so materializes or when hard choices are to be made. For most, the choice is about what is most convenient to their personal interests and allegiance to a far away state and former home is a low priority.


That is exactly correct but nothing to do with having a minimal sense of loyalty. Even the average IA jawan (whom I consider to be the benchmark of patriotism) feels more allegiance to his comrades and his paltan during battle as opposed to his country. Jawans repeatedly state that they are ready for die for their comrades and to keep the izzat of their paltan. When hard decisions need to be made (whether life-or-death or not), one's choices are driven by one's loyalty to one's close ones, not to a country. The country is too large an entity to feel anything but symbolic allegiance towards. So its hardly an NRI thing.

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby ShauryaT » 04 Mar 2014 05:30

RB: I have tried to provide the matter of loyalty a narrow definition of allegiance to a state, expressed through retention of citizenship for an NRI. Now, one may reject the above and provide a broader set of views, but the above is my preference of how to test the logic of the matter of loyalty as others are too subjective and quite frankly irrelevant from the prism of a state expecting loyalty from its citizens and uphold the laws of that state, in this case of India's.

A sovereign state expects loyalty from its citizens and has all the powers to enforce such measures on its residents. However, for an NRI this power of the state weakens as its sovereign powers cannot or are difficult to reach the concerned citizen, creating fissures in an NRI's sense of loyalty due to distance and time.

We may be speaking in two different planes. I do not disagree that is how some may feel, based on the IA Jawan example you have provided and the idea of loyalty to a state is not how people may "feel" about the issue. However, what I am referring to is not feelings but a state enforces this obligation on its citizens and the IA Jawan or the average Abdul has no choice on the matter and the state has all the powers necessary to enforce any violations and keep its citizens accountable. A NRI citizen's choice to stay away from the reach of the sovereign powers of a state and staying away from the environment of that state weakens the state's hold, even for the most diligent of self described patriots. It is my submission that most NRI's have a minimal sense of allegiance to the Republic - the feeling part. Now, if you are trying to say, that this sense of allegiance to a larger entity is lacking in many residents also, all I can say to that is a union is a work in progress and India is still at it. The Republic of India is after all a fairly new concept in context of the timelines of the nation we belong to. NRI's have that choice to not fully submit to their part of the contract being cross border, Residents do not have this choice, Jawan or Abdul. The state demands absolute loyalty, felt or not is a separate issue.

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby Vayutuvan » 04 Mar 2014 05:42

It is possible to be both loyal and honorable. Criticizing the state and taking/asking for corrective actions when it is in the wrong is one of the duties of citizens of any country - democratic or not. Of course, when disagreements arise, a totalitarian state with a strong coercive executive under its control can enforce the demands of loyalty from its citizens - resident or even non-resident.

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby Pratyush » 04 Mar 2014 06:05

But there is huge difference in criticism and derision. Criticism is offered with an expectation that the subjet will improve. but derision is offered that nothing will change.

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby UlanBatori » 04 Mar 2014 08:15

Bhyfor all this bellyaching about citjen-jehaaz? All r welcome in Ulan Bator.

New term: Menial Sepoys. :mrgreen:

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby ashish raval » 04 Mar 2014 12:09

ramana wrote:ashish, why are you taking this personally to a general comment?


Well sir, I felt my post in other forum was taken out of context and used here to construct argument for the case and hence I feel to defend it until someone proves otherwise regarding the original comment about our strategic preparedness. I would be more than happy to be proven wrong about my original comment than using it to argue that I am deriding India in any manner even if it is used for general population. That is my only point.

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby merlin » 04 Mar 2014 12:41

Raja Bose wrote:
ShauryaT wrote:My experience is MOST NRI's in the west have a minimal sense of loyalty to the Republic of India and do take up citizenship of a foreign state as soon as the opportunity to do so materializes or when hard choices are to be made. For most, the choice is about what is most convenient to their personal interests and allegiance to a far away state and former home is a low priority.


That is exactly correct but nothing to do with having a minimal sense of loyalty. Even the average IA jawan (whom I consider to be the benchmark of patriotism) feels more allegiance to his comrades and his paltan during battle as opposed to his country. Jawans repeatedly state that they are ready for die for their comrades and to keep the izzat of their paltan. When hard decisions need to be made (whether life-or-death or not), one's choices are driven by one's loyalty to one's close ones, not to a country. The country is too large an entity to feel anything but symbolic allegiance towards. So its hardly an NRI thing.


Hmm, I wonder what will the jawans do if it ever came to choosing between comarades/paltan and the country. Then we will really know if they have any sense of loyalty to their country or not.

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby member_22733 » 04 Mar 2014 14:03

^^^^ Very similar concept (loyalty towards country or comrades) is explored in this movie:

Dr Strangelove or how i learned to stop worrying and love the bomb

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby shiv » 04 Mar 2014 14:45

ashish raval wrote: On the contrary, I have chosen not to be a citizen of Britain <snip>But even that does not take away my fundamental right to criticise my country on anything which is wrong.


I am leaving out errors in your interpretation of what I have said. This was never intended to be about NRIs or Indians abroad. It was about any Indians, but especially those within India who are derisive and mock India in the same way that CNN, BBC or Pakistanis might do. I think your posts deserved special attention as being mocking and derisive combined with blowing your trumpet about the expensive food you buy from haute society outlets like TESCO.

Your responses fitted in perfectly with what I wrote in the early posts of this thread, and that had nothing to do with NRIs. You tell me you are not one and that makes your post even more deserving of mention. Your mockery and arrogant self aggrandizement posted under the faux and retrospectively applied excuse of the well meaning Indian and what you consider your " right to criticise my country on anything which is wrong" only indicates lack of insight into what you are doing. You have a right to criticise any country, but you need to think about which country you describe as "mine". Clearly you don't stop to think if YOU might be wrong. It's other Indians who are wrong. Not you.

Let me cross post what you wrote earlier so that others can judge what you have said while you exercised your " fundamental right to criticise". The reference to "Indians" in third person as you exclude yourself from the group and laugh at those Indians wetting their pants, is an absolute classic. If you were not British when you made that comment, you certainly weren't Indian either.

ashish raval wrote:Hehe and Indians are wetting in their pants to give few missiles to Vietnam ! Supa dupa power.


ashish raval wrote: indian citizens abroad are more Indians than many could ever be living in India.

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby shiv » 04 Mar 2014 15:26

merlin wrote:Hmm, I wonder what will the jawans do if it ever came to choosing between comarades/paltan and the country. Then we will really know if they have any sense of loyalty to their country or not.

This is a paradox that was solved by military training centuries ago.

Since the paltan is fighting for the country and not doing amonkey ayesha the question cannot arise for the following reason.

Each man of the paltan is ready to protect the life of his mate and give his own life, if necessary (but not needlessly) while doing that. In every case the giving of life is for the country because the life is being taken by the "dushman". If one man dies while helping the other man live, the other man will consider it a dishonor to not live up to the sacrifice of the fallen comrade. That means wreaking revenge on the dushman, which is the same as fighting for the country

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby member_20317 » 04 Mar 2014 16:02

^
So that means even if a soldier is deputed to some other paltan he would still be doing his duty regardless of his affections/attachments/feelings/communication/rapport, for/with, his original/new paltan/country/buddy.

Probably more than the distance in space, it is the distance in time that draws people including soldiers apart. A WW-1 or WW-2 BIA soldier may get forgotten for his sacrifice.

The country on the other hand is inseparable from its existence in time.

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby merlin » 04 Mar 2014 16:29

shiv wrote:
merlin wrote:Hmm, I wonder what will the jawans do if it ever came to choosing between comarades/paltan and the country. Then we will really know if they have any sense of loyalty to their country or not.

This is a paradox that was solved by military training centuries ago.

Since the paltan is fighting for the country and not doing amonkey ayesha the question cannot arise for the following reason.

Each man of the paltan is ready to protect the life of his mate and give his own life, if necessary (but not needlessly) while doing that. In every case the giving of life is for the country because the life is being taken by the "dushman". If one man dies while helping the other man live, the other man will consider it a dishonor to not live up to the sacrifice of the fallen comrade. That means wreaking revenge on the dushman, which is the same as fighting for the country


Well then they are fighting for the country is it not. Just that it seems more fashionable to put it that they don't really fight for the country but for the paltan/izzat, etc.

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby ShauryaT » 04 Mar 2014 19:21

A TRADITION OF RAPE
So what is sex by consent in India? The majority of women, rather girls, are married “off” by their parents or families to boys they hardly know. Even in the more “progressive” cases where the boy and girl are allowed to get to know each other, the decision is taken not by the girl or boy. This, I think, has some very important implications.

First, that sex with a person who is almost a stranger is not uncommon and is implicitly accepted. It is not the person but the context that makes the person sex-worthy. I will not have sex with a stranger, but make him wear a connubial turban (or whatever local wedding gear), take the seven rounds around the sacred fire and sex between us is sanctioned! Therefore, when families, or even the police, encourage a girl to marry her rapist it has a cultural basis and endorsement – don’t view him as a rapist but your husband, and voila the defilement is deified, the ruin transformed into respect, and both the lives are sorted out.

Second – this is a point that intrigues me, sometimes humorously, but usually with sadness – what if the girl doesn’t want to have sex, or what if the boy doesn’t? But, there they are, from the very first celebrated “suhaag raat” (the nuptial night), both forced into consummation, eagerly awaited by both the families, with questions of pregnancy starting from almost the first week. There is very little space for the girl to say, “no…please, not tonight, not like this, not again”.

Third, if the girl is unhappy, doesn’t enjoy the sex they are having, or is being forced, who does she tell? Usually – no one. Her parents and family have invested a lot in this liaison. She would feel guilty to jeopardise that, as well as her family’s and her own “respect” in society. Her gentle hints, hesitant murmurs of concern, complaint, to her mother, aunt, in-laws will usually be soothed by, “It’ll be ok, have a child and it’ll be fine”. So, what would be considered rape in many societies is accepted as a “normal” course of filial events.

Unless there is a major shift away from this arranged marriage by the family, unless this very important social, religious and cultural tradition is challenged and overhauled, we cannot expect meaningful debates on rape in India. Women need first to reclaim their bodies and establish their power and choice over them. This is particularly important among the educated, economically independent women of India. They need to realise that there is a direct connection between women abdicating their power of consent for sex to their parents, and men perceiving women as powerless, at the mercy of the man – to do as he likes with her.


I was led to the above article from somewhere on this board. Apologies if this was posted earlier. It is a perfect example of how a deracinated mind can take a very well established tradition, a tradition which has helped build an institution, holding society together and instead of focusing on instances of abuse in the system ends up attacking that very institution and its associated traditions under the influences of the ideas of "individual choice". The author makes aspersions and links beyond the understanding of the author. Just like the AAP makes noises about the system without understanding how to manage the reform process, these social anarchists do the same on our traditions and institutions. Underlying all of this is the matter of individual choice and freedom, taken to its extremes is the direct opposite of Dharma, which seeks to bind individuals, families and the larger society into an interweaving web, making a nation.

We do have some real issues of women's security in the public place, especially in some parts of the country and abuses within the institution of marriage to deal with, but is this the way to go about them with contempt and derision?

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby Pranay » 04 Mar 2014 19:43

On the subject of terminology for those afflicted... Here in the States, different communities have come up with the following terms for those among them with such symptoms...

1) Coconuts - Brown outside, white inside (lots of coconuts in the Indian Media fraternity)

2) Oreo Cookies

3) Bananas

#'s 2 and 3 i leave it up to the reader's imagination on who uses them....

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby ShauryaT » 04 Mar 2014 20:29

shiv wrote:
ashish raval wrote: indian citizens abroad are more Indians than many could ever be living in India.
Funnily enough, I hold the opposite view. Indian citizens abroad could not ever be more Indians than Indians living in India. A few minor exceptions notwithstanding and I am not talking of feelings or a state of mind here. So, when NRI's critique, it should be done with sensitivity. If my Brother calls me a fool, I may just hug him, if my neighbor does so, i may send my dog to poop in his yard.

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Re: India Media role in contempt and derision about India

Postby JE Menon » 04 Mar 2014 20:44

On the LA Times site, the Swede(?) is back... and has responded to a Dutchman(?) with some vim and venom.

http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-indi ... z2umZ0W7pi


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