India Media role in contempt and derision about India

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Feb 2014 08:06

There is s difference between healthy self criticism and contempt and derision. The dividing line between the two is admittedly vague, but healthy criticism and introspection becomes derision and contempt when the same cliched statements are repeated again and again and again in the media with no attempt to move on in the light of new developments. These repetitions become particularly nasty when they are the same criticism levelled against India by foreign media who might have an agenda of simply being critical for the purpose of provoking religion based social revolutions in india funded by evangelical entities in the USA or Islamist causes.

A few facts that need to be recalled.

India has had more people than most of the other countries in the world throughout history. Exactly for that reason India will always have greater absolute numbers of sufferers of common diseases or undernourished people. At the other extreme, as nutrition improves in India - India will also end up having more obese people than almost any other country simply because our absolute numbers are large.

As an analogy India has more tigers than anywhere else in the world. For that simple reason India also has more tigers dying every year than anywhere else in the world. That does not mean India is doing nothing about preserving tigers. Similarly, India has more children under five years than any other country in the world. An partly as a result of that India has more malnourished children who are dying than anywhere else in the world. That does not mean that nothing is being done to make thngs better = or that it is a heartless Hindu population who don;t care that results in this.

For may decades I felt that smart Indians went into technical fields and the losers went into the media. Media people were, in my view, under educated and underinformed and prone to blindly take any inputs from any foreign media. This has not changed a lot although a younger generation of smarter Indians are now entering the media albeit in junior positions - while the seniors are the same dullards at the helm.

As a result of having a populous nation of a large number of illiterate people, with an elite minority of Indians who get their inputs from foreign media, we find that our own media in India are full of people who simply end up echoing and copying all the criticism of India that appears from the western media.

Western media say that India is a caste ridden unfair society. Indian media say "Yes yes yes, India is is a caste ridden unfair society"

Western media say India has rampant slavery, and Indian media say "yes yes yes, India has rampant slavery"

Western media say that India is full of rapists, and Indian media say "ts yes yes, India is full of rapists"

There is no analysis of slavery or rapes abroad, or social inequity. Just plain India bashing. The Indian media belong to an elite class who like to lecture Indians about how bad they are and the media and elite with access to the media believe that they stand shoulder to shoulder with the great west in trying to wag a finger and correct India.

I am hoping to use this thread as a repository of news articles where India is simply bashed using the standards sentences (like "80000000000 Kashmiris raped by Indian army" and "India fails again in .."

I will start with one example that i saw today and will try and fill up the thread with both Indian and western media xamples of standard lines used to bash India.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Feb 2014 08:12

Our friend Hemant Kumar Rout writes
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=20834

India once again failed in its much-hyped Agni Pariksha. After an abortive mission on Tuesday, the proposed night trial of 700-plus km range Agni-I was postponed for indefinite period reportedly due to technical glitches in the missile system on Wednesday.

In 2009, such an attempt to fire 2000-km range Agni-II had ended in a failure as the missile developed snags during second phase separation and deviated from its coordinated path before plunging down in the sea.

It does not matter how mny successes there are but the man has to self flagellate and write stuff that would make anyone interested in bashing India laugh with contempt at the incompetence of rocket science in India.

Why do indians have to do this? Are they trying to show that they have some advanced and "balanced" western thought processes? Indian reporters need to stop mindless India bashing. Is it possible that Indians have such a low self image of their own countrymen and nation that they want to set themselves apart as higher evolved beings who can see a different truth?

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 21 Feb 2014 15:17

Very good to open the subject. I would just like to add, that India obtains special attention for this kind of coverage in the global media.

Where are the similar hard edged articles written about the Philippines, Indonesia, Brazil, Nigeria, Estonia? Appearing on a regular basis, and often written by people of those ethnicities( like Manu Joseph for the NY Times, for example, or Haroon Siddiqui of the Toronto Star).

Philippines, Indonesia, Brazil et al would have any number of issues/controversies of the kind associated with India, yet we rarely, if ever read about them.One exception was the "Imelda Marcos and her collection of shoes" sensation, something that was repeated so often, to the exclusion of just about all other problems in the Philippines. And used more for humorous effect, than as a catalyst to investigate corruption in that country.

Because of its accessibility and the willingness of many Indians and ethnic Indians to denigrate their country/of origin, India tends to be more in the spotlight than most other developing countries.

habal · Post by **habal** » 21 Feb 2014 16:27

2 points,

1. Denigrating, or abusing India is the only way many of these people can show up in the west as 'Not Indians' a particularly paki phenomenon but shared by many Indians for variety of reasons. They can distance themselves from Indic, which in any case stands for bribery, corruption, woes, heat, dust, calumny, & what not that typifies India in their perception.

2. Secondly their abiilty to sleep with goris also depends upon how much they can disassociate themselves from their Indic roots and make themselves acceptable to the western cliches about a non-christian, but english speaking, non-white country. They need to be good uncle tom's to score success in this field. Criticism gives the westerner an automatic comfort level by validating their supremacy. They have to cater to the sense of hurt, rejection, sin etc embedded in the western psyche when it comes to relating to non-Christian ethos.

Sonugn · Post by **Sonugn** » 21 Feb 2014 16:38

Should see the glee on the faces of brownsahebs when goras nod in agreement during discussions.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 21 Feb 2014 19:42

Recently you may have seen that Penguin Books India "voluntarily withdrew" a piece of trash peddled by Wendy Doniger, University of Chicago *orn peddler who is notorious for her India/Hindu-bashing. Here are some questions posed by NDTV's "senior whatzit" in the US to some of the people in the US who have been trying to voice concerns about the activities of Doniger and her cohorts, through letters to the editor etc (hardly constitutes violence, does that?)

Have you received any response from the White House or US authorities and universities on the petition you have filed? (well, not counting the call from BO yesterdin..)
Though 'The Hindus' has been banned in India, (no it has not!!!) do you realistically believe that the US (which is a civilized gora nashun where chote-chote bacche bhi acchee tarah angreji mein baat karte hain) will do the same?
What eej yuwar response to the liberal view that in a democracy all ideas must be allowed to come forward?
What are the other efforts including protests that you are planning to initiate in the coming weeks?
There are reports of the book disappearing from US universities including Illinois and Pennsylvania. Is this true? Please detail.
Who are the group/groups of people behind your effort? Can you explain your motivation.

(Also send a picture of the hole in yuwar head)

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 21 Feb 2014 19:54

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Very good to open the subject. I would just like to add, that India obtains special attention for this kind of coverage in the global media.

Where are the similar hard edged articles written about the Philippines, Indonesia, Brazil, Nigeria, Estonia? Appearing on a regular basis, and often written by people of those ethnicities( like Manu Joseph for the NY Times, for example, or Haroon Siddiqui of the Toronto Star).

Philippines, Indonesia, Brazil et al would have any number of issues/controversies of the kind associated with India, yet we rarely, if ever read about them.One exception was the "Imelda Marcos and her collection of shoes" sensation, something that was repeated so often, to the exclusion of just about all other problems in the Philippines. And used more for humorous effect, than as a catalyst to investigate corruption in that country.

Because of its accessibility and the willingness of many Indians and ethnic Indians to denigrate their country/of origin, India tends to be more in the spotlight than most other developing countries.

As a matter of fact, from time to time, NYtimes, LATimes etc. do carry pointed "informative" articles about places like Indonesia etc.

But more interesting is the way we tend to ask, "why is NYTimes bashing India only, why don't they bash Indonesia, Nigeria etc. equally?" in a thread that is about Indian media's role in what I'll call infantilizing of India vis-a-vis the West.

The demands for fairness and equality in bashing by West sound to my ears like a child, upon being beaten by its parent, whining, but why don't you beat my brother also, when he was just as bad?

In such a dynamic, there is no question about who is the child and who is the parent; NYTimes et al are the parents, and we are the children. The debate is only about the kind of parenting we receive.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Feb 2014 20:19

Jan 2011 post about a 1997 op-ed in Ind Express by Gautam Sen...

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 3#p1010103

ramana wrote:When it comes to internal matters of India some of us bat for the Lefties and the same people bat for US when it comes to India and the outside world.

Is this the new Left/Liberal?

To reiterate Gautam Sen's excellent article

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 71#p965771

The trouble with Third World leftists - The Indian Express

Title : The trouble with Third World leftistsAuthor : Gautam Sen
Publication : The Indian Express
Date : March 12, 1997

The failure of Third World elites to understand the West is partly due to what can be described as sample bias, although private career interests are important as well. Their exposure to the West is primarily through its universities which are relatively liberal though largely powerless. And exposure to the Left in countries like the UK is especially consequential because, while their radical views have little impact on their own societies, they successfully brainwash Third World elites who wield power at home.

Academics like Maurice Dobb and Harold Laski who decisively perverted the world-view of a whole generation of Indians were cranks, irrelevant to the governing elites of Britain. But even now Indians recall these names with misguided awe.

The principal damage inflicted by such Western duplicity is to encourage Third World intellectuals to oppose their domestic ruling order implacably, in the name of the class struggle, even if it fatally undermines the state apparatus. The dire necessity of a strong state, domestic social cohesion and military prowess are thus opposed by this strata of Third World society.The other lamentable deficiency in their education is the obsession with the idea of progress. The consequence is the belief that the world is gradually becoming a better place and Western societies and their politicians today are better than their ruthless predecessors. There is no evidence for sustaining this conviction, but it aids old-fashioned re-conquest of the Third World.

The Left in the UK is completely united with its government in the murderous project in Iraq. One Israeli diplomat has remarked that Saddam Hussein was always his country's preferred choice because he was the only politician capable of preventing Iraq from allying with either Syria and/or Iran - "he represents equilibrium", he asserted. According to him, the US and its allies had always supported Saddam and it was only his nuclear ambitions that prompted intervention.

The allure of international seminars as well as the fear of
traditional bases of Third World protest, inevitably religious,
reinforces the covert and, increasingly, public support of Third World Leftists for Western imperialism. The backing of the international Left and its Third World allies for the mass murder taking place in Algeria is a case in point. India's secular Left wing defenders of Islam quickly adopt the militant anti-Islamic rhetoric of their Western sponsors as soon as they land at the airport!

Given the enduring influence of colonial education, only prolonged and deep estrangement from the dominant Western intellectual perspective allows one to see things differently. China's elites, unlike India's, are relatively immune, because they do not understand English and cannot therefore absorb this virus as a matter of course.

It is noteworthy that the two societies which gave authentic
verdict to significant recent events are theocracies that value their intellectual autonomy. Iran was perturbed by the destruction of Iraq during the Gulf War despite Iraq's bloody aggression against it earlier. And Israel lodged the solitary protest against the mass murder of Bosnia's Muslims. The ignorant and sycophantic Indians sent a parliamentary delegation to Belgrade to commiserate with Slobodan Milosevic, the architect of genocide in Bosnia.

A momentous military and economic re-conquest is therefore
occurring without the necessary response on a war-footing from the elites of countries like India. Western powers are penetrating and occupying the Third World through investment and trade, helped powerfully by the control of international credit and treaties like the World Trade Organisation as well as the transmission of ideas and sources of individual reward. The military dimension of this policy has already been demonstrated in Iraq, with terrible consequences for its civilian population. India, Iran and North Korea are now in the firing line.

(The writer is a lecturer in the politics of the world economy at the London School of Economics)

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 21 Feb 2014 20:24

Statement from Smt. Monica Arora, advocate who won Penguin's Hearts and Minds

Intolerance in the name of freedom of expression
"I was shocked and aghast to read the comments of author Wendy Doniger calling Indian Judiciary as the main villain in this case. Equally shocking was the article of Ram Chandra Guha carried by your esteemed newspaper stating that courts have failed to protect artistic rights. Equally stunning was the letter of Arundhati Roy calling us Hindu fanatic outfit, fly-by-night-outfit and fascists on the one hand and threatening Penguin with protests outside their office on the other hand. All these three reactions displayed the same mindset which is anti Hindu mindset and holds “we will obey the law, if it suits us otherwise damn it.”

Wendy Doniger wrote in her ill famed book that Swami Vivekananda & Mahatma Gandhi advised people to eat beef. Mangal Pandey hero of 1st Independence Movement was under influence of bhang, opium, alcohol; Rani Laxmibai was loyal to the British. Shivalinga is a representation of the male sexual organ in erection. Lord Rama said only an idiot like father would give up a good son like him for the sake of pretty women. The map of India is shown without Kashmir.

The objectionable passages are per-se defamatory, objectionable and insulting to our freedom fighters and the Hindu Gods. Eminent personalities including former ambassador, historian, educationist, freedom fighter approached court of law for deletion of such passages. After 4 years of legal battle, Penguin agreed to withdraw this book and gave an undertaking to the court to this effect. Hence the withdrawal of this book is an outcome of a valid, legal battle fought by people of eminence in this vibrant democracy.

Further this lynch mob and intolerant pseudo-secularists in the name of freedom of expression are crying from rooftops and demanding freedom of defamation.

India is governed by Rule of Law which states that law is Supreme and governs the whole country and its people. Article 19 of the Constitution of India states the fundamental Rights of freedom of expression which comes with reasonable restrictions in public order, morality, unity and integrity.

But the likes of Arundhati Roy are alien to the concept of Rule of Law. She has been more in the news for being on the wrong side of law and was even held guilty for Contempt of Court. Criminal cases were lodged against her for sharing platform with separatists and preaching the separation of Kashmir from India. She has questioned the use of the word ‘Bharat’ for India by Penguin, not realizing that Article 1 of the Constitution of India calls “India, that is Bharat shall be a union of states.”

Hence the aforementioned people are damning the Indian Courts, damning the publishing house which stated that it respected all religions and damning the group of eminent, educated people who out of their conviction did not resort to any violence but adopted purely legal, civilized means to approach the Court of law for a legal remedy for their legitimate legal grievances. But these champions of freedom of expressions have took upon them their favorite agenda to attack all those who do not agree with them and who dare to talk in favour of Hindus or the Freedom Fighters of this country. They are the likes of the American President who openly declared “Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists.” Similarly they declare that either you are with us or you are fascists, extremists and fanatics. This intolerant section has one motto damn everyone who does not agree with them in the name of freedom of expression.

I most humbly state that merely getting an International award does not make you Ms. Wendy Doniger and Ms. Arundhati Roy above the Indian Law and does not give you a right to damn the Indian Courts, Judiciary and all these voices who disagree with you. Further it does not give you freedom to defame the freedom Fighters and any religion in the name of freedom of expression."

Advocate Monika Arora
Supreme Court
Advocate for Sh. Dinanath Batra

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 21 Feb 2014 20:34

I wasn't looking at it from the parent-child analogy, KLN Murthy! More like, India being a developing, third world country with some traditional 'power structures' still in place, and with poverty, overpopulation and corruption, it would share a lot of problems with countries like Indonesia,Brazil, Nigeria et al. But we don't get those hard, harsh remarks from within those countries, that we often see from India. Nor do we hear of controversies such as this recent one involving Wendy Doniger in India.

There must be books, movies, plays, paintings, sculptures and individual academics which outrage or offend people in those places. Why don't we hear of them, and why aren't those controversies brought to international attention, the way the same issues are raised in India? That's what I'm referring to.

Absolutely, the condescension of the NY times, Washington Post, CBC and BBC must be countered as much as their double standards with respect to India and other developing nations. One example of condescension, or putting the questioner in a position of authority, would be something like "Dr Radhakrishnan( ISRO chairman) I'm trying to get a sense of why now, why is it necessary for India to send a satellite to Mars now, when critics would argue that the country has many other priorities" . As someone pointed out, that same question is not asked of China, Russia or France. Nor is the Cambodian, Mongolian, Peruvian, Mozambiquan or Lithuanian broadcasting corporation asking India or ISRO that type of question!

Sonugn · Post by **Sonugn** » 21 Feb 2014 21:06

The problem, from my perspective, is that the capturing of the corridors of power by a right-wing party strengthens groups in society with a narrow vision of modernity, a deep dislike of intellectual freedom, a commitment to sanitise Hindu history, and to persist in an unabashed encroachment on the rights of others.

The Hindu at it again.

MurthyB · Post by **MurthyB** » 22 Feb 2014 01:02

shiv wrote:Our friend Hemant Kumar Rout writes
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=20834
India once again failed in its much-hyped Agni Pariksha. After an abortive mission on Tuesday, the proposed night trial of 700-plus km range Agni-I was postponed for indefinite period reportedly due to technical glitches in the missile system on Wednesday.

In 2009, such an attempt to fire 2000-km range Agni-II had ended in a failure as the missile developed snags during second phase separation and deviated from its coordinated path before plunging down in the sea.
It does not matter how mny successes there are but the man has to self flagellate and write stuff that would make anyone interested in bashing India laugh with contempt at the incompetence of rocket science in India.

Why do indians have to do this? Are they trying to show that they have some advanced and "balanced" western thought processes? Indian reporters need to stop mindless India bashing. Is it possible that Indians have such a low self image of their own countrymen and nation that they want to set themselves apart as higher evolved beings who can see a different truth?

Some thoughts on this. As you say, going into medicine and engineering is what "sensible" middle class family kids do. Even if you don't get an engineering seat, you can do some BSc degree and go to an NIIT type of place and still get into IT. What I have seen anecdotally in my family is that people who do all this are generally conformists. There is one guy in my extended family who was a rebel, and went into the Army instead. Afterwards, he was even more rebellious and married someone a) older than him, b) who was divorced c) who already had a couple of kids, and d) of a completely different religion, forget caste etc. I always thought that he went into the Army not because of patriotic feelings, but more as a giant FU to his family. Anyway, his marriage pretty much ended his relationship with most of his family.

So what about journalists then? Is this a profession that non-conformists go into? Are they pacifists? Leftists? Contemptuous of naked celebration of nationalistic fervor? A psychological profile would be useful, because it doesn't sound like journalism enjoys a glamorous reputation as a career, and draws from a normal sample. And as I said, even if you cannot crack engineering through the front door, you can get in through the back door. So if you choose to do something like journalism, it might not be that you couldn't get engineering, but motivated by other things.

Even if you get into engineering, there is a pecking order there, with the highest rankers at the IITs going to CS, and next EE, all they way down to metallurgy or materials science. Even there, the materials guys will try to sneak into EE later, and the mechanical guys into CS. I have a friend who got into engineering and could have even gotten CS by her rank, but instead chose environmental engineering based on some youthful exuberance for saving the environment. There has always been a lingering resentment on her part towards CS and the lucrative opportunities that exist in that field, which have only exploded over time. Add to that the fact that environmental engineering soured on her as the day to day career experience involved doing boring audits and compliance docs rather than running around Greenland saving whales, and the resentment has multiplied. Coming back to journalists , if they were non-conformists, do they resent engineers on a personal level? When an Agni fails is it "Ha ha, these overrated engineers, can't make their thing work, while I can finish my report and do my job ha ha" on a personal level?

To test my theory, I looked at this fellow's facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/hemant.k.rout? ... wse_search

and nothing pops out. He has written glowingly about the LCA before. He is also not young and impetuous. Maybe it is his editor?

Another issue is attitude toward the defense industry in general. In America, I have met many bright American engineers who have complete hatred for the defense and armaments industry. For a long time, I even used to wonder who in America builds their military hardware, because throughout my education and career, I only met people who were strongly opposed to building weapons of war. I would assume that in Pacifist India, these feelings would be greater and deeper.

When you are in India writing reports and doing your job, thinking in global terms is probably the farthest on your mind. On top of that, it's not clear how much defense reporting matters to the public at large, and how much attention it is given in newspapers. So it could be any number of these issues.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Feb 2014 07:06

BR exposed her aeons ago as being nothing more than a pompous hypocrite,poseur,and parasite,sucking from the teats of "Mother India" and its Muddle Class,as well the tits of her Western patrons,who used her as a convenient scalpel to slice at India's oriental traditions and culture,alien to occidental minds,in an attempt to denigrate our unique way of life and values.

Why no one listens to Arundhati

Saturday, 15 February 2014 22:47
Prateek Chadha

Whatever your views on the merits of Penguin’s actions in withdrawing Wendy Doniger’s book, ‘The Hindus’, it is hard to read Arundhati Roy’s open letter to Penguin and not cringe. In her letter Roy does what she does best. She is undoubtedly extraordinarily gifted when it comes to constructing beautiful prose, but sadly when it comes to writing on issues that affect the wider public, it seems beautiful prose is the extent of her gifts.

A closer analysis of her beautiful prose reveals that she has not really thought about how hypocritical she is being [or as many suspect, that she is a rather big hypocrite]. If she is in fact as deeply concerned with Penguin’s failure to protect its authors as she claims to be, the logical course of action would be for her to immediately drop them as her publisher. She would hit them where it hurts the most- their pockets; and if she is truly as non- materialistic as she has long claimed, the monetary loss that she would face should be of no significance. But for reasons best know to Roy that has not happened.

Instead of putting her money where her mouth is, Roy insists that Penguin is obligated to fight on behalf of everyone that has a problem with people demanding a ban on the book. According to Roy, Penguin and the people that work there should not only pay vast legal fees to fight for her cause, but also risk imprisonment under the Indian Penal Code as it exists- all while she does nothing beyond writing a letter.(!)

Nor does Roy help her case by somehow connecting a settlement made by an international publishing house after years of litigation with the potential rise of “fascists” in India’s next general election (which I think it is reasonably safe to assume refers to the fact that Narendra Modi and the BJP might attain a majority). How Roy thinks convincing Penguin that taking up this issue is unlikely to endear it to what might possibly be the next government might encourage Penguin is unclear. I would argue that it is more likely to discourage Penguin to do as she asks, than it is to encourage it (assuming for the sake of argument that Roy is right in her thesis about the ‘fascists’).

Personally, I agree that the book should be available to the public and that those that have a problem with it should not read it. But, that said, the law in India allows people to object to the content of books and Penguin has to operate within the bounds of the law. It is not incumbent on anyone, much less on a business run for profit to fund legal battles for changing the law (and in fact, there is a strong argument to be made for the fact that large publishing houses should not be throwing cash into legal battles with the express aim of determining to what extent their actions can be regulated). As a prominent citizen and a veteran of taking on the State, Roy is far better placed to campaign for whatever change in the law she feels is needed than almost anyone else.

Why she seems to be shying away from doing so is anyone’s guess- and till she actually walks the talk, her letter is no more than the piteous bleating of a hypocrite.

- See more at: http://www.theindianrepublic.com/tbp/on ... 0SXI1.dpuf

Abhijit · Post by **Abhijit** » 22 Feb 2014 09:44

I had written about a part of this observation. The 'journalists' in India, write in Indian publications (online or print) as if they are writing for a global audience - or rather US/UK audience. They write stories as if they are not Indians but some super-smart mavericks posted to a third-world country by the superpower/superpoodle.

Suppose Obama meets Shinzo Abe.
How American media will cover this: President Obama met with Japanese Prime Minister Mr. Abe.

Suppose Indian FM (MEA) meets, say, the FM of Japan.
How does Indian English media cover this: Indian foreign minister met with Japanese FM.

Hello? Most of the English media jokers think of themselves as working for NYT or WAPO or something.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Feb 2014 09:57

Abhijit wrote:I had written about a part of this observation. The 'journalists' in India, write in Indian publications (online or print) as if they are writing for a global audience - or rather US/UK audience. They write stories as if they are not Indians but some super-smart mavericks posted to a third-world country by the superpower/superpoodle.

Suppose Obama meets Shinzo Abe.
How American media will cover this: President Obama met with Japanese Prime Minister Mr. Abe.

Suppose Indian FM (MEA) meets, say, the FM of Japan.
How does Indian English media cover this: Indian foreign minister met with Japanese FM.

Hello? Most of the English media jokers think of themselves as working for NYT or WAPO or something.

Excellent point and fits in perfectly with a concept originally brought in by ramana (credited to his son) - i.e linguistic fractal recursivity. In this case Indian media people simply pick up the attitudes of the "greater media" of the US/west and apply those attitudes towards the "lesser" India and Indians, positioning themselves among the "greater" western media.

I think you said it just right:

write in Indian publications (online or print) as if they are writing for a global audience - or rather US/UK audience. They write stories as if they are not Indians but some super-smart mavericks posted to a third-world country by the superpower/superpoodle.

Naturally, these idiots love phrases like "globalization", and "global village". That gives them the necessary excuse to write like prats.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 22 Feb 2014 13:24

I present to you the golden standard for contempt, derision and condescension
When VAroon mentioned MAnu Joseph, this article came to my mind.

Indian Spiritualism Made for the Modern Age

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 22 Feb 2014 13:27

The House Negro.
What Malcolm X said is still valid today as the salvery is intellectual. Indian journalists who work for furreign media outlets remind me of this. They undermine INdian interests and protect the master.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 22 Feb 2014 17:09

Neela wrote:The House Negro.
What Malcolm X said is still valid today as the salvery is intellectual. Indian journalists who work for furreign media outlets remind me of this. They undermine INdian interests and protect the master.

Wow, THANKS! That was quite an experience, listening to him. I can see why so many people looked up to him - and why he was viewed as such a threat by the Other Side. Also, I can see why African Americans of MLK's time empathized with Indians of the Freedom Struggle and of the 1960s.

A far cry from both the majority of AAs of today and the desis of todin, the lifafa writers of desh.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 22 Feb 2014 19:33

>>How does Indian English media cover this: Indian foreign minister met with Japanese FM.

perhaps these ddm buy into the whole 'world citizen' thing, aided by the 'indian bad, western good' thinking from childhood.

it is a means of "i am not one of these people", who are caste ridden, outdoor crapping, eating with hands etc people. i am above these people, see i have different views, that is better.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Feb 2014 20:00

Gus wrote: it is a means of "i am not one of these people", who are caste ridden, outdoor crapping, eating with hands etc people. i am above these people, see i have different views, that is better.

There is a class of people in India, whose attitude towards any form of Indian pride or nationalism is equated with "rightwing Hindutva". You don't even need to be a particularly ardent Hindu to be dubbed thus. Those that are accused of being supporters of rightwing Hindutva are the equivalent of field negroes. Those that make the accusation are house negroes. But the master is gone from the house. The "house" in India is still protected by the Indian house negro in his masters absence. His master's voice can be heard in the media and in literature, and acceptance by the master can occur in various ways that may include easy visas and other support

For Indians we need better terminology to refer to Indian House Negroes. DIE - deracinated Indian elite may be a good expression - but I would like an expression that is easily understandable. DIE is a nice acronym but the expansion is unclear. Any ideas?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Feb 2014 22:17

Indian media will be the vehicle for the UC Berkeley group's propaganda campaign. So wonderinf if we should collect in this thread the US base RNI moves? Or else we lose focus.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 22 Feb 2014 23:36

Yes, but so far it's been platitudes and no sign of action. We need research.... and remember that BRF is monitored by the same folks.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 23 Feb 2014 00:02

I had written about a part of this observation. The 'journalists' in India, write in Indian publications (online or print) as if they are writing for a global audience - or rather US/UK audience. They write stories as if they are not Indians but some super-smart mavericks posted to a third-world country by the superpower/superpoodle.

Suppose Obama meets Shinzo Abe.
How American media will cover this: President Obama met with Japanese Prime Minister Mr. Abe.

Suppose Indian FM (MEA) meets, say, the FM of Japan.
How does Indian English media cover this: Indian foreign minister met with Japanese FM.

Hello? Most of the English media jokers think of themselves as working for NYT or WAPO or something.

That is nothing saar: Indian media often refer to US presidents as President joe blow etc, that is without a qualifier of exactly whose el presidente this is and, of course, it is always el Presidente not el presidente.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 23 Feb 2014 00:34

Abhijit wrote:I had written about a part of this observation. The 'journalists' in India, write in Indian publications (online or print) as if they are writing for a global audience - or rather US/UK audience. They write stories as if they are not Indians but some super-smart mavericks posted to a third-world country by the superpower/superpoodle.

Suppose Obama meets Shinzo Abe.
How American media will cover this: President Obama met with Japanese Prime Minister Mr. Abe.

Suppose Indian FM (MEA) meets, say, the FM of Japan.
How does Indian English media cover this: Indian foreign minister met with Japanese FM.

Hello? Most of the English media jokers think of themselves as working for NYT or WAPO or something.

It could also be because they write for News syndicates. I have seen Indian authors, based on their names, go extra mile to explain names. For example if a report has two individuals with the same last name, they would explain the individuals are not related. An average Indian is likely to know that. They would also sometimes go about explaining how some Indians use just one name. Outsourcing could be one cause.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 23 Feb 2014 01:55

shiv wrote: There is a class of people in India, whose attitude towards any form of Indian pride or nationalism is equated with "rightwing Hindutva". You don't even need to be a particularly ardent Hindu to be dubbed thus.

DoCJi, not trying to provoke you or disagree with you, but if I recall past discussions, when I criticized Bollywood Muslims for not espousing enough Indian pride, and instead sucking up to TSP, you accused me of exactly the same thing, namely, you asked me to come out and say I am a "rightwing Hindutvaadi" and that I hate Muslims

.Has there been a change in you recently?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 23 Feb 2014 02:07

SwamyG wrote:
Abhijit wrote:I had written about a part of this observation. The 'journalists' in India, write in Indian publications (online or print) as if they are writing for a global audience - or rather US/UK audience. They write stories as if they are not Indians but some super-smart mavericks posted to a third-world country by the superpower/superpoodle. ...

Might also be because they write for News syndicates. I have seen Indian authors, based on their names, go extra mile to explain names. For example if a report has two individuals with the same last name, they would explain the individuals are not related. An average Indian is likely to know that. They would also sometimes go about explaining how some Indians use just one name. Outsourcing could be one cause.

Not quite. When they write for a Syndicate they DO go the extra mile: on their knees. With their tongues to the sand. They add at the end an all-important explanation for their masters:
Hindu-ruled India and Secular, Tall, Fair, Tight-Ass*d Pakistan have fought four wars over the disputed Himalayan territory of Kashmir. Pakistan is a major front-line, goat-loving ally of the United States in the Global Offensive Against Terror (GOAT).

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Feb 2014 02:37

a typical example.

http://www.dw.de/hindu-fanatics-celebra ... a-17430907
Hindu fanatics celebrate hatred

snippets :-

While the world celebrated love, Hindu fanatics used Valentine's Day to show their hatred of modernity.

....
In India, the world's largest democracy, freedoms of all kinds have been rolled back over the past decades.
....
The withdrawal of American academic Wendy Doniger's eminently readable book The Hindus....

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 23 Feb 2014 04:06

CRamS wrote: DoCJi, not trying to provoke you or disagree with you, but if I recall past discussions, when I criticized Bollywood Muslims for not espousing enough Indian pride, and instead sucking up to TSP, you accused me of exactly the same thing, namely, you asked me to come out and say I am a "rightwing Hindutvaadi" and that I hate Muslims .Has there been a change in you recently?

and you are still wrong.

this is not a religion specific phenomenon.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Feb 2014 07:27

CRamS wrote:
shiv wrote: There is a class of people in India, whose attitude towards any form of Indian pride or nationalism is equated with "rightwing Hindutva". You don't even need to be a particularly ardent Hindu to be dubbed thus.
DoCJi, not trying to provoke you or disagree with you, but if I recall past discussions, when I criticized Bollywood Muslims for not espousing enough Indian pride, and instead sucking up to TSP, you accused me of exactly the same thing, namely, you asked me to come out and say I am a "rightwing Hindutvaadi" and that I hate Muslims .Has there been a change in you recently?

You are calling my statement an "accusation"?

CRamS do you want me to change and retract the statement? Do you feel a sense of shame at having the "rightwing Hindutva" label attached to you? Do you believe that it was an unfair label that you do not want?

What is relevant to this thread is the fact that "Hindutva" has been made equal to "righwing Hindutva" which is equal to bigotry, support for genocide, slavery and social discrimination to the extent that people do not want to wear the label Hindutva for fear of being branded with attributes they do not have.

This is ignorance at a fundamental level which has been pushed too far.

We need to digress briefly into Indo-European languages. We have words like:
Pure: Purity (the state of being pure)
Modern: Modernity (the state of being modern)
Proper: Propriety (the state of being proper)
Libre (freedom): Liberty (the state of being free)

If you come to Sanskrit you have words like "astu" - exist - and "astutva" - the state of existing. Similarly you have the label "Hindu" and the word "Hindutva" meaning the state of being a Hindu.

Unfortunately in India, you can be Hindu, but "the state of being Hindu" has been made synonymous with bigotry genocide, slavery, religious intolerance and social discrimination. In other words, you are allowed the freedom to go so far as saying "I am a Hindu" but when you claim the status of being Hindu you are a rapist/murderer/bigot. Perhaps you have bought into this meaningless dichotomy judging from your reluctance to be counted among people who claim Hindutva. This dichotomy was not brought in by Wendy Doniger, but by Indians who bought into the idea that being Hindu means being a rapist/murderer/bigot, and therefore "Hindutva", the state of being Hindu means just that.

It is the role of media to correct what is wrong, as opposed to perpetuating misinformation. But the media themselves suffer from the idea that Hindu come in two categories, with one set, the "Hindutva" - being bigot/rapist/murderers. One has to exclude oneself from the state of being a Hindu in order to avoid being dubbed a rapist/murderer/bigot. There is, in edumacated Indian minds a feeling of apology wherein one needs to advertise that one has corrected oneself despite being a Hindu and that one is not a rapist/murderer/bigot by admitting that one is a Hindu but does not exist in a "state of being a Hindu". wtf? Are we really so smart as we claim to be?

We have fiddled with our education and filled our academia and media with people who are apologetic about the state of being a Hindu, which means that one must be a rapist/murderer bigot. How did Indians get to be this way? It's not Wendy Doniger that is doing this, she gets enough Hindus who worry about the state of being Hindu and imagine that they would be bigots by being Hindu.And it is these people who see no issues with Doniger. Once you are converted into imagining that your own heritage is demonic, anyone who agrees with you is your ally.

panduranghari · Post by **panduranghari** » 23 Feb 2014 15:43

shiv wrote:
For Indians we need better terminology to refer to Indian House Negroes. DIE - deracinated Indian elite may be a good expression - but I would like an expression that is easily understandable. DIE is a nice acronym but the expansion is unclear. Any ideas?

@rajivmalhotra Sepoy is a special kind of crony: serving the cause of Western Universalism imposed upon Indians. A perfectly fine term just like 'crony'

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 23 Feb 2014 21:48

From TOIlet of India.
Why never questions whether Mighty Mo of Makkah slept with children?

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 23 Feb 2014 22:14

ramana wrote:Indian media will be the vehicle for the UC Berkeley group's propaganda campaign. So wonderinf if we should collect in this thread the US base RNI moves? Or else we lose focus.

India News a Hindi channel is going crazy right now (@10:35 pm IST on 230214) projecting Rajan the plant in RBI, as the white knight fighting Dawood. Fighting by outlawing the currency issued prior to 2005. Could this be the start? or the methodology?

[OT]
Shiv ji, did your stand on some other forum got labeled as Hindutva vaad?

But then at a larger scale, what has changed, this is how it was forever. Though I do feel for the predicament of the non-Hindutva-vaadi hindu trying to live peaceably with his Hindutva

.

The good thing though is that only the people with a will to give as good as they got, ultimately get attracted towards Hindutva-vaad.[/OT]

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 24 Feb 2014 04:14

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?289559

Well, the current discourse on Indian culture and society is deeply flawed, even though it dominates the educational system and the media. This story about “Hindu religion” and “the caste system” started out as an attempt by European minds to make sense of their experience of India. Missionaries, travellers, and colonial officials collected their observations; Orientalists and other scholars ordered these into a coherent image of India. In the process, they drew on a set of commonplaces widespread in European societies, which all too often reflected a Christian critique of false religion.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 24 Feb 2014 04:44

ramana wrote:Indian media will be the vehicle for the UC Berkeley group's propaganda campaign. So wonderinf if we should collect in this thread the US base RNI moves? Or else we lose focus.

Just noticed this !! Onlee few hours late in having the same thought. Yudhbhumi is in India while Yodhas can be stationed few thousands Yojan away. Wounded Dushman now wait for opportunity to strike.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 24 Feb 2014 04:45

panduranghari wrote:
shiv wrote:
For Indians we need better terminology to refer to Indian House Negroes. DIE - deracinated Indian elite may be a good expression - but I would like an expression that is easily understandable. DIE is a nice acronym but the expansion is unclear. Any ideas?
@rajivmalhotra Sepoy is a special kind of crony: serving the cause of Western Universalism imposed upon Indians. A perfectly fine term just like 'crony'

DIE= Angrezo Ki Nazayaz Awlad.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Feb 2014 07:14

panduranghari wrote:
@rajivmalhotra Sepoy is a special kind of crony: serving the cause of Western Universalism imposed upon Indians. A perfectly fine term just like 'crony'

Yes sepoy is a good term.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 24 Feb 2014 07:29

gumasta?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Feb 2014 07:41

SwamyG wrote:http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?289559

Well, the current discourse on Indian culture and society is deeply flawed, even though it dominates the educational system and the media. This story about “Hindu religion” and “the caste system” started out as an attempt by European minds to make sense of their experience of India. Missionaries, travellers, and colonial officials collected their observations; Orientalists and other scholars ordered these into a coherent image of India. In the process, they drew on a set of commonplaces widespread in European societies, which all too often reflected a Christian critique of false religion.

This is a beautifully worded passage summarizing an absract thought. For all the tens of thousands of words I type I still find it difficult to express some things in an easily understandable manner.

Among the most vicious Gordian knots needing to be untied is the fact that Indian society still uses the concept of jati, which translates roughly as clan to find mates who speak the same language, hail from the same geographic area and share a common micro-culture and cuisine. This system is made more complex by the fact that Indian society does not have the individual as the primary unit. It is the family that is the primary unit. Individual decisions are always run through a filter of family opinions.

Both these facts grate uncomfortably against western social mores that have been pushed on Indian society as "modern and desirable". "Individual freedom" is touted as the most important freedom in the west - especially in the US to the detriment of family. And in fact individual freedom extends only so far - because after a point government and society step in even in the west to curb individual freedom in favor of the many. Only family and social structures that protect the family have been rendered irrelevant.

Social stratification in the so called caste system is no different from social stratification anywhere else - but as long as it occurs in India it is dubbed as "caste system" and bad. Most Indians live confused lives in which they are taught that "caste" is bad and are apologetic about it, even while their lives are built around an extended family support system which is what "caste" actually is. India are unable to say how caste can be both good and bad and revert to apology without understanding that what they call "caste" was not meant to be a system of stratification as interpreted by missionary and other Christian observers from Europe.

What is known as "caste" is actually our identity that indicates which part of the country you hail from, who your extendd family are and what your social customs are. Even educated Indians are unable to parse the fact that "caste" has been dumbed down into four groups and painted as being rigid in those four groups. In fact the word "caste" needs to be discarded. Even among those four groups are a million sub-families indicative of language, geographic origin and culture. The variety is so large that Europeans were unable to make sense of it. Indians who learned about it from the European viewpoint are now unable to see it the way it works in India.

None of this is intended as an apology. The minute people start saying things the way I have done - he is reminded of all the bad things the system has and that he is trying to hide and obfuscate. In fact, the obfuscation is on the other side. The fudging comes from not understanding a complex system in the first place and dumbing it down to call it bad. The system has areas where discrimination occurs, and intermarriage is vetoed by a family decision, but without looking at how the system works for a very large number of people it is plain GIGO to paint is as bad. However this is what has been done, and sepoys continue that trend.

Maybe Indians are not that smart? Yet.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Feb 2014 07:42

Gus wrote:gumasta?

Well I have a friend called "Gumaste" - which is a family name, so maybe Sepoy is best?

chandrasekhar.m · Post by **chandrasekhar.m** » 24 Feb 2014 10:08

what about these terms:
burra sahib/pukka sahib/brown sahib
yes-man