Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Rajiv Lather · Post by **Rajiv Lather** » 16 Mar 2014 20:18

The reason why I keep going back to the flight simulator is that the pilot may have been finding solution to landing on a shorter, under-prepared strip, even a belly landing to reduce the ground pressure. He would have, of course, also practiced all the twists and turns, which the US authorities are now calling "evasive tactical air maneuvers"

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 16 Mar 2014 20:23

Can 777 be refueled midair? can a change kit be applied to refuel? Was it the Non xrayed cargo? If refueled midair how many hours the engines would run?

Regarding the zigzag aircraft movements earlier published, I am thinking the aircraft was circling for some time and landed / crashed somewhere

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 16 Mar 2014 20:24

Missing Plane 'May Have Sent Signals On Ground'

The missing Malaysia Airlines plane carrying 239 people could have been on the ground when it sent its last satellite signal, an official has said.

The final 'ping' was picked up nearly seven hours after the flight vanished from air traffic control screens.

At first it was thought contact was lost less than an hour into its flight from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing on March 8.

But now investigators say a 'ping' was detected from one of two air corridors going north and south from the sea off Malaysia.

One is a northern route stretching thousands of square miles from northern Thailand to Kazakhstan and the other is a southern zone from Indonesia towards the southern Indian Ocean.

Twenty five countries have now joined the search which has changed from shallow seas to large areas of land crossing 11 nations as well as deep and remote oceans.

Questioned by Sky News, one official said: "It is possible for the aircraft to be transmitting on the ground as long as there is electrical power to the aircraft's system."

In reaction, John Lindsay, former head of air safety at British Airways, told Sky News: "It would be a possibility and perhaps a probability that the aircraft is on the ground transmitting those signals.

"If this has been a very carefully orchestrated, pre-planned event then the aircraft and its passengers are the asset of the people who perpetrated this activity.

"It would be bizarre to destroy your asset by running out of fuel and crashing it anonymously into one of the oceans or a land mass without declaring what the point of the exercise is.

"The auxiliary power unit would have enough fuel to keep running for days and keep the plane powered up for some considerably longer period."

Investigators said contact was lost with air traffic controllers north of Malaysia, about 40 minutes into the flight.

They said someone on board turned off the two communication systems, the ACARS and transponder, and the plane was deliberately diverted west.

There are four lines of inquiry that authorities are focusing on - hijacking, sabotage, and personal and psychological problems.

Investigators are looking at pilot Zaharie Ahmad Shah and co-pilot Fariq Abdul Hamid's personal and religious backgrounds.

Police have been searching their homes and have also examined a flight simulator at one of the properties.

Cheers

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Mar 2014 20:25

symontk wrote:Can 777 be refueled midair? can a change kit be applied to refuel? Was it the Non xrayed cargo? If refueled midair how many hours the engines would run?

Regarding the zigzag aircraft movements earlier published, I am thinking the aircraft was circling for some time and landed / crashed somewhere

afaik no 777 has yet been used for military role so no AAR kit exists. Boeing had proposed the KC-777 tanker concept but I guess usaf wanted the cheaper 767.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Mar 2014 20:34

symontk wrote:Can 777 be refueled midair? can a change kit be applied to refuel?

777 is a dedicated commercial aircraft. Refuelling piping adds weight and makes flying costiler for airlines who would are looking even at 0.5% fuel savings as significant.

Besides, if hijackers already had a refuelling aircraft why on earth would they have to steal a 777?

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 16 Mar 2014 20:35

Alien abduction then?

If the plane has not crashed, that means somebody somewhere has a Boeing 777. Can they use it for military purposes or do a 9/11 redux?

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 16 Mar 2014 20:58

Singha wrote:Diego Garcia to my limited idea has only bombers because its middle of nowhere and way outside unrefueled radius of any fighter, but for seaward defence and rescuing pilots of bombers ditching in ocean, they keep at least one ddg lurking around in segments frm dg to afpak.
i read of one rescue of four b1 crew during goat days in af.ddg rushed to spot at night and used rigid hull inflatable fr pickup.

Midair refueling ?

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 16 Mar 2014 21:02

matrimc wrote:
Singha wrote:Diego Garcia to my limited idea has only bombers because its middle of nowhere and way outside unrefueled radius of any fighter, but for seaward defence and rescuing pilots of bombers ditching in ocean, they keep at least one ddg lurking around in segments frm dg to afpak.
i read of one rescue of four b1 crew during goat days in af.ddg rushed to spot at night and used rigid hull inflatable fr pickup.
Midair refueling ?

Only possible if it is wireless enabled.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Mar 2014 21:06

Nijalingappa wrote: Only possible if it is wireless enabled.

Also 3G enabled.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Mar 2014 21:07

When YSR helicopter went missing, the US had taken 20,000 radar images from space to locate the helicopter crash site. How come we dont hear about US sats taking pictures etc now?

saip · Post by **saip** » 16 Mar 2014 21:09

Missing Flight Pilots Refused to Fly Together: Malaysian Minister

Why were they forced to fly together then? And what is the plane in the picture with four engines?

Link

I think it is A380?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 Mar 2014 21:11

^^
A 380

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Mar 2014 21:12

Latest nugget..the allright goodnight last radio contact was made on edge of Malay atc zone well after someone went down into avioncs bay and disabled acars. Maybe there is no alarm shown in cockpit for this.

saip · Post by **saip** » 16 Mar 2014 21:15

But to do that they have to open the panel door (which is outside the cabin door) with 'special tools' and walk down few steps and find all the breakers to pull in a sequence. While this is being done the Flight Attendants, were overpowered? If a pilot has done this, it wont raise any alarms. Even some 777 pilots are on record saying that they would not offhand know how to do this.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 16 Mar 2014 21:18

GoI should insist on those intermediate pings to continue searching, however if this was a consolidated picture by Inmarsat, meaning those pings lie on the same corridors then the plane could be farther out from the Igrex waypoint along those arcs and they had a landing point in mind, they don't need to wait around in a zone with no radar coverage and we know it flew its full range of available fuel, atleast we think, but by hiding such detail, some countries can scour BoB

if those pings reveal a different flight pattern, we need to know while possibly the radars at A&N would have seen something, if they were switched on

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 16 Mar 2014 21:19

RAMESHJ wrote:Pakistan not hiding missing Malaysian jet

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report-pa ... al-1969847

The Pakistan government has denied media reports that said the missing Beijing-bound Malaysia Airlines jetliner, with 239 passenegers and crew on board, might be hidden somewhere in Pakistan.

Shujaat Azeem, special aviation assistant to the Pakistan prime minister, said the flight disappeared very far off from Pakistan, was never visible on the country's radars, and hence there was no chance Pakistan was hiding it, The Nation reported.

This smells the most stinking fish. They are denying, they are involved? Typical paki trait.

saip · Post by **saip** » 16 Mar 2014 21:23

But the pings may not mean the plane was travelling along those arcs, right? It could be circling say after the very first ping while the hijackers were deciding what to do. It might have been on the ground while the engines were running for whatever reason. The pings only show the distance from the satellite and not the direction.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 16 Mar 2014 21:23

from gupta saars link..

Measure the power level of the signal as received at the satellite. The antennas on the satellite and the plane amplify the signal more at some elevation angles than others. If you know the transmission power accurately enough, and know how much power was received, you can estimate the angle it came from. This again would produce a similar range from the sub-satellite point, expressed as a circle on the Earth’s surface.

We can see that the search locations are based on exactly these curves at a given distance from the sub-satellite point. However, it is unlikely that the measurements are more accurate than within say 100 miles

here is a link with a clear map of inmarsat 3 coverage....

http://www.marlink.com/pdfs/Targeted_po ... _u0zNZ.pdf

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Mar 2014 21:24

saip wrote:Missing Flight Pilots Refused to Fly Together: Malaysian Minister

Why were they forced to fly together then? And what is the plane in the picture with four engines?

Link

I think it is A380?

i think that's incorrect. Straits times reports they never asked to fly together that's all.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 16 Mar 2014 21:25

this whole thing is suspicious. that entire area is high surveillance zone. china, india, US naval assets, other SE Asian radar coverage.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 16 Mar 2014 21:26

from Gupta sirs links

>>Measure the power level of the signal as received at the satellite.

my questions ...

is this power a funtion of linear distance of the aircraft to the satellite ?

>> The antennas on the satellite and the plane amplify the signal more at some elevation angles than others.

is this plane simple trigonometry ? if so than would it be indicative of the altitude ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Mar 2014 21:30

777 must have around 10 flight attendants...seems to me similar sized gang of hijacker shock troops, demolition door openers, aero engineer and pilot would have to be in pax list if both the pilots are innocent.
surely with ten out of 253 there is chance of good leads if they look properly.

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 16 Mar 2014 21:33

They could have used Jammer for disabling the ACARS, they weren't probably aware of the flight system pings that were 1hr apart to jam it, surely they were 'radar conscious'

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 16 Mar 2014 21:37

The Cargo compartment and airline fuel are kept closer. So if any cargo went non xrayed, it could be a refueling eqpt

If you have enough technicians it can be done on ground after reaching some location. Then it would have flown some where else. It could now be in western hemisphere too

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 16 Mar 2014 21:50

Those ping timepoints starting with 3:11AM one are ABCDE while only F is deduced, unless ABCDE is within 100 miles zone we will have a non-linear pattern and then fuel doesn't allow it upto Kazakh territory

based on the search zone given to IN by Malay with US inputs, they wanted a 600km by 15km zone searched that is 600km west of A&N and 500km east of Indian coastline and a possible crash point further south of southern India, thats too far from point F anywhere on the arcs based on the fuel left

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Mar 2014 22:02

Btw couple yrs ago a cheen sf unit tracked and killed a criminals gang in golden triangle who had killed some Chinese traders or fishermen....the revenge attack took place in golden tr somewhere.
this was lauded as evidence of its growing power in the region.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 16 Mar 2014 22:06

Could all this be a drama enacted to study the asserts and capabilities of India in the region? Say, the World powers have concluded that Modi will be the PM, they would want to know what India's military can and cannot do. Is that a possibility?

CNN is slowly giving up. If sufficient data about India has been collected, then scapegoats will be found, or even the actual truth be let out.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 16 Mar 2014 22:19

This site can search satellite images. I did search it and one shot did get something that looked like an airplane nose. HOw do i get back to what i searched? Was trying to tag it when it went random to some other map. Plus no clue which part is being searched. Anyone ever used it?

http://www.tomnod.com/nod/challenge/mal ... map/714059

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 16 Mar 2014 22:31

How about after the crash into IO a sub surfaced where the plane went down and scuttled the debris?

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 16 Mar 2014 22:37

shiv wrote:[ 777 s require a proper 2 km (at least) runway which is hard enough to with stand 200 tons hitting the surface via a few wheels - translating to thousands of kg/sq cm. If the wheels sink, the plane's nose will plough into earth and produce an almighty funeral pyre.

That is right. I know it for a fact that Boeing designed reference runways for 777 before the plane was delivered.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 16 Mar 2014 22:41

If this was such a meticulously planned Ops, Then there is no way on earth that they would just let the plane crash with no clarity on motive, not even one last AoA.

CT: Could it be that a new type of weapon was being tested like super powerful EM shock wave which made the plane to just vanish without a trace and will reappear in a far off corner after few weeks/months/years maybe.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Mar 2014 22:45

Philadelphia experiment mki for attacking on the move targets

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 16 Mar 2014 22:48

Is China checking which countries in the region are are radar-nude? They made lots of noise initially. Now it is Unkil.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Mar 2014 23:04

Since the standard for CTs* has clearly gone down here

Let me post this technical pooch:
A camera on the ISS (Internashunal Ishbace Ishstashun) can easily photograph South IO several times per din, and I bet they have very high res cameras there. Cloud images can see contrails of aircraft if magnified sufficiently (Remember 'NASA' photos "proving" land causeway existing across 'Ram Sethu' when there were just wisps of cloud over the region??). Once left behind, these contrails persist for a couple of hours at least, and they keep getting bigger as they diffuse and collect more ice crystals from surrounding air. The contrails are very distinctive - there is nothing natural that generates something like that.

Now the So IO region is one ordinarily empty of aircraft contrails. Not many flights daily to Antarctica from Karachi. So any sight of these in the given time frame is a giveaway. This aircraft was flying after the sun came up (if the CTs are correct), so there was daylight during that time. Why hasn't someone found these? They would point pretty accurately at where the plane went, until it started desending. Even then the vortex would show some ice formation, but the engine exhausts would not be rolled into them. I am pretty sure there are plenty of satellites up there like NOAA, Indian Remote Sensing etc that would have sent these images down. LEO satellites go around say 14 times per din, or even more. LEO orbit period is around 90 minutes on up, hain?

*: Let me explain. A CT advanced in the first hours after a mystery occurs, and based on rigorous GUESS analysis of ALL known facts, is a scientific hypothesis. A work of art as much as deep science. It is done with a pure heart, entirely to help the authorities think straight and start ASAP on SAR in the right place, finding the real perps, and preparing to counter further catastrophes IMMEDIATELY.

One advanced 7 days later, when the authorities clearly know more than they are saying, is merely idle gossip. The pure-hearted purveyor of CTs shuns these.

Mahesh_R · Post by **Mahesh_R** » 16 Mar 2014 23:05

SwamyG wrote:Could all this be a drama enacted to study the asserts and capabilities of India in the region? Say, the World powers have concluded that Modi will be the PM, they would want to know what India's military can and cannot do. Is that a possibility?

CNN is slowly giving up. If sufficient data about India has been collected, then scapegoats will be found, or even the actual truth be let out.

+100 I am as well getting the same feeling...no doc proof that the plane was in IO and just making a case to map our backyard..

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 16 Mar 2014 23:06

SwamyG, you don't need a 777 full of passengers to drag out of somewhere and do that. There are a 100 ways to do it very simply.

UB: Even if they have a hi resolution camera..how do you search and analyze an area several million square kms of ocean? What are the resources and time needed?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 16 Mar 2014 23:12

UB: Even if they have a hi resolution camera..how do you search and analyze an area several million square kms of ocean? What are the resources and time needed?

If it is ISS they should crowd-source the analysis. The resolution needed is MUCH less (I mean much coarser) because you are looking for 1 lines (or 1 line from that height) that is hundreds of miles long, or at least dozens of miles long. One plane width at origin, then grows and grows proportional to x^something for miles and miles behind.

Unmistakeable. Once you see something coarse, then all kinds of zoom in and analysis can be done, and you can pretty much tell how many hours old it is, what weight class of plane made it, etc. And you just follow it in the direction of decreasing width until you either find the flying plane or the last evidence of a contrail which means (a) engine out (b) air temperature became too warm, meaning altitude too low) or (c) wind blew very strong at high altitude.

NASA routinely made STS images available. Why not ISS? And if ISS can take these, I bet there are all sorts of other cameras that do it. Remote sensing sats also do sensitive IR, so they should have picked up the engine heat signature (that may indeed be very very small and resolution is a problem). But the contrails initially have hot air in them.
This is why we asked many dins pehle, why, if they could detect the thermal difference due to a submarine wake from a satellite in James Bond days (premise of "Spy hu love me") , this could be so hard.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 16 Mar 2014 23:13

CNN claim India has suspended the search and asked Malaysia to provide "updated" information.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 16 Mar 2014 23:23

UB: I did post a site that seems to be doing crowd sourcing search on this plane. But i don't seem to know which part is being searched. They don't give lat/long but map numbers. But yes, the best way to go about is crowd source searches in these sort of issues. Many ships go down without 'trace' each year, even the hydrostatic release life rafts are never found, though my guess is they must be floating somewhere in the vast ocean for sometime at least. Hope there is a website that devotes exclusively to this kind of crowd source search with feeds from whatever sources made available.

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 16 Mar 2014 23:27

I am not an aviation guy so a naive question. Is it possible that the pilots did AOA and dived the plane in to the ocean and the plane has sunk to the bottom of the ocean in one or two pieces and no evidence like oil and bags will come to the surface?