Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-370 goes missing

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby Cybaru » 13 Mar 2014 10:10

No data from the engines if it spun down normally kinda indicating landing or did the data stop mid way at high revolutions indicating a disaster ?

Lots of interesting data captured for sure.
http://www.rolls-royce.com/about/techno ... ystems.jsp

The sense tab seems interesting

Would the pressure difference in the engine flying 100 feet off the deck not be different than one flying 30,000 ft ?

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby Shreeman » 13 Mar 2014 10:41

negi wrote:^ From above

U.S. counterterrorism officials are pursuing the possibility that a pilot or someone else on board the plane may have diverted it toward an undisclosed location after intentionally turning off the jetliner’s transponders to avoid radar detection, according to one person tracking the probe.

Why would one make these manual on a jetliner to begin with ? Avoiding radar detection for what (I mean for normal ops unless hijacked) ?


Historically, to transport war material in conflicts. Or when not given overflight rights, no functional ATC (africa).

Now, to not overwhelm airport towers when not flying. These are still very simple devices, not smart enough to know when to squawk or not squawk.

squawk codes are dynamic, asssigned per flight, depending upon the flight may be more than one, per ATC handover. This is why you have three (or at least 2) devices. One transmits, the other is programmed with the next leg before a switch, a third in standby in case one of the two goes out, redundancy etc. Probably also saves a bit of time than having to program the only one and switch over at handover or something.

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby nawabs » 13 Mar 2014 10:45

But it certainly does not look like pilot suicide or any human interference for which the pilots alone can be assigned fault because otherwise they would have shut off ACARS too, right? And even if others are involved, there would have been time for pilots to send some type of distress signal.

And acc. to New Scientist, RR was supposed to have recieved only 2 reports, with the 3rd during cruising not received. Now, it seems they did.
Last edited by nawabs on 13 Mar 2014 11:13, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby wig » 13 Mar 2014 10:56

there is an interesting story, today suggesting the plane may have continued flying for around four more hours beyond its last known position - strange there does not seem to be much by the way of privacy!
US investigators and national security officials base that belief on what the paper reports as "data automatically downloaded and sent to the ground from the Boeing 777's [Rolls Royce] engines as part of a routine maintenance and monitoring program."

The focus overnight has been on the satellite images from Sunday, but released yesterday by the Chinese, showing three pieces of unidentified debris positioned in line with what might be expected from the planned route, but certainly not four hours beyond where it was when last in contact.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -live.html

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby anmol » 13 Mar 2014 11:05

Vietnam says area where images show possible plane debris already searched
foxnews.com | Mar 13th 2014

China's official Xinhua News Agency reported late Wednesday a government website has satellite images of suspected debris from the Malaysia Airlines plane that vanished last week with 239 aboard, but Vietnam said the area had been thoroughly searched.

The satellite images from the morning of March 9 appear to show "three suspected floating objects" of varying sizes in the sea off the southern tip of Vietnam and east of Malaysia – a part of the original search area for the aircraft, which was en route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing.

However, there was no immediate confirmation of the reported debris from the airline or Malaysian authorities, who urged caution over the findings.

Pham Quy Tieu, Vietnam's deputy transport minister, told The Associated Press that the area had been "searched thoroughly" by forces from other countries over the past few days. Doan Huu Gia, chief of air search and rescue coordination center, said Malaysian and Singaporean aircraft were scheduled to visit area again Thursday.

Malaysia's civil aviation chief, Datuk Azharuddin Abdul Rahman, said Malaysia had not been officially informed by China about the images, something he said was a "a breach of protocol."

He said if Beijing informs them of the coordinates, Malaysia would dispatch vessels and planes.

Until then, he urged caution, noting that the general area had been searched several times and the images were taken on Sunday. "There have been lots of reports of suspected debris," he said.

"If we get confirmation, we will send something," he told The Associated Press early Thursday.
Until then, he urged caution. "There have been lots of reports of suspected debris."

Meanwhile, The Wall Street Journal reported early Thursday that U.S. aviation investigators and national security officials believe the plane flew for about four hours past the time it reached its last confirmed location, according to data automatically downloaded and sent to the ground from the Boeing 777's engines as part of a routine maintenance and monitoring program.

U.S. counterterrorism officials are exploring the possibility that a pilot or someone else on board the plane may have diverted it toward an undisclosed location after turning off the plane's transponders to avoid radar detection, a person tracking the investigation told The Journal.

Vernon Grose, a seasoned National Transportation Safety Board investigator and consultant, told Fox News his preliminary assessment was that if the plane disintegrated, he would expect to find large pieces of wreckage, including the wings, the horizontal stabilizer in the tail and the vertical fin.

One of the objects reportedly spotted in the Chinese satellite images would be consistent with a jet's wing.

If this is the wreckage, Grose said the black boxes should be located in fairly short order.

However, with the passage of time since the satellite images were taken, it is far from certain that whatever they show would be in the same location now.

The Xinhua report did not say when Chinese officials became aware of the images and associated them with the missing plane.

Two-thirds of the passengers on the flight were Chinese, and the Chinese government has put increasing pressure on Malaysian officials to solve the mystery of the plane's disappearance.

The latest report came as Malaysia’s civil aviation officials said Wednesday in Beijing that the final voice communication heard from the missing Malaysian Airlines jet to air traffic controllers was, "All right, good night," The Straits Times reported.

The message was reportedly sent from the cockpit to the controllers in response to being informed that the plane was entering Vietnamese airspace.

Amid intensifying confusion and occasionally contradictory statements, the country's civil aviation authorities and the military both said the plane may have turned back from its original route toward Vietnam, possibly as far as the Strait of Malacca on the eastern side of the country.

Authorities have not ruled out any possible cause for the plane’s disappearance, including mechanical failure, pilot error, sabotage or terrorism in the disappearance of the plane. The 777 is a modern aircraft with an excellent safety record, as does Malaysia Airlines.

In June 2013, Boeing issued a safety alert to Boeing 777 operators, telling them to inspect for corrosion and cracks in the crown fuselage around a satellite antenna. The alert says one airline found a 16-inch crack in one plane, then checked other 777s and found more cracking.

"Cracks in the fuselage skin that are not found and repaired can propagate to the point where the fuselage skin structure cannot sustain limit load," Boeing said. "When the fuselage skin cannot sustain limit load, this can result in possible rapid decompression and loss of structural integrity."

Fox News' Catherine Herridge and The Associated Press contributed to this report

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby Shreeman » 13 Mar 2014 11:07

nawabs wrote:But it certainly does not look like pilot suicide or any human interference for which the pilots alone can be assigned fault because otherwise they would have shut off ACARS too, right?


True, and the time reported is somewhat in line with fuel carried. There is way more supporting decompression a la payne stewart than anything else.

But Mangolians will say ACARS may not have been a part of their checklist. Not everyone pays for it.

Paranoia aside, the preoblem is where to look. Its too big a search area.

But if they knew the flight time, who knows what else is known but not published yet.

Then again....

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby nawabs » 13 Mar 2014 11:35

Seems there is no GPS with ACARS data received. Further flight path may be difficult to decipher unless someone was tracking it.

Conspiracy theory doing rounds about somekind of 'asset acquisition'. More specifically, about Freescale semiconductors employees onboard.

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby Shreeman » 13 Mar 2014 11:50

nawabs wrote:Seems there is no GPS with ACARS data received. Further flight path may be difficult to decipher unless someone was tracking it.


Different elements. Existence of engine performance data has been disclosed. Presumably this contains major performance changes -- climb/top-off/descent/etc. Should not be hard to discern if at any point a landing like situation develops or if engines reported landing (data has height, even without other parameters will tell major portions apart). Clean spool down will mean human agency and will be proof of mangolian theories or at least need for uegent help. Thus also the dhoti shiver re. hijack.

Other elements of ACARS may also exist or may not.

I stick to original theories. Its just one plane, no need to make a boston marathon out of it.

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby Singha » 13 Mar 2014 11:51

does this mean F18 type planes are also equipped with automatic transmitters back to HQ that upload periodic data ... nice of sher khan to track his assets so nicely. they will get a entire history of usage if they want like endomondo just with one black box that keeps logging flight data.

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby Shreeman » 13 Mar 2014 11:54

nawabs wrote:Seems there is no GPS with ACARS data received. Further flight path may be difficult to decipher unless someone was tracking it.

Conspiracy theory doing rounds about somekind of 'asset acquisition'. More specifically, about Freescale semiconductors employees onboard.


Freescale employee bit is a red-herring. These folks were malaysian and chinese. Freescale expertise on this plane is overblown. The company outsources a million things. That one I can discount even more than the mangolian theories.

Military planes are a different species. Still end-use verification is not vague in any way.

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby nawabs » 13 Mar 2014 11:59

http://www.rolls-royce.com/about/techno ... ystems.jsp

Captures three types of reports:

The first are snapshots, where the sensor data listed above is captured and collected into a small report. This is carried out during take-off, during climb and once the aircraft is in cruise.

The second type is triggered by unusual engine conditions. Examples might be if an engine exceeded its TGT (Turbine Gas Temperature) limits during a take-off. These reports contain a short time-history of key parameters to enable rapid and effective trouble-shooting of the problem.

The final type is a summary, which is produced at the end of the flight. This captures information such as maximum conditions experienced during the flight, and power reductions selected during take-off and climb.
Last edited by nawabs on 13 Mar 2014 12:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby wig » 13 Mar 2014 12:01

it appears that data was transmitted in two bursts to the engine maker, Rolls Royce in this case .The data is from the Airborne Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS). The data may help investigators understand what went wrong with the aircraft, no trace of which has yet been found. . If every engine is piously transmitting data to its maker I wonder what operators do to fly their machines without informing all and sundry. from the above it appears that the flight path is tracked routinely.

the maker of the missing Boeing 777's Trent 800 engines, Rolls Royce, received two data reports from flight MH370 at its global engine health monitoring centre in Derby, UK, where it keeps real-time tabs on its engines in use. One was broadcast as MH370 took off from Kuala Lumpur International Airport, the other during the 777's climb out towards Beijing.

As the engine data is filtered from a larger ACARS report covering all the plane's critical flight systems and avionics, it could mean the airline has some useful clues about the condition of the aircraft prior to its disappearance.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -live.html
Last edited by wig on 13 Mar 2014 12:07, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby Prasad » 13 Mar 2014 12:02

Singha wrote:does this mean F18 type planes are also equipped with automatic transmitters back to HQ that upload periodic data ... nice of sher khan to track his assets so nicely. they will get a entire history of usage if they want like endomondo just with one black box that keeps logging flight data.

Not sure about khan mil assets but Boeing and Airbus both have stations monitoring planes worldwide. Air France flight that crashed was transmitting acars data until the last moment. Airline chooses what package to use, based on cost like dish tv packages.

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby nawabs » 13 Mar 2014 12:02

If they received an "unusual engine condition" report but no "summary" report, that could indicate that the flight did not end with a controlled landing (the unusual engine condition could have been flame out due to fuel starvation)

On the other hand, if they received a summary report, then the plane could be wheels down somewhere. Though what exactly triggers the summary report? Weight on wheels?

The content of the data they have will be very telling.
Last edited by nawabs on 13 Mar 2014 12:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby Prasad » 13 Mar 2014 12:05

Acars data is sent back either using vhf ground stations or through satcom. If they did receive spool down reasons at RR then the plane is certainly wheels down somewhere. Doesn't look like this particular plane had satcom antenna installed.

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby Atri » 13 Mar 2014 12:10

ok.. now my CT totally pulled out of my musharraf is that some has forced the plane to run and run and die. (literal translation of hindi - dauda dauda ke maara).

only a professional airforce can do it.. question is, why?

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby Yogi_G » 13 Mar 2014 12:12

My CT list,

1. Captured by UFOs ( I am serious )
2. Captured by Aceh Islamist rebles, plane camouflaged, secret negotiations with Malaysia and Indonesia.

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby Shreeman » 13 Mar 2014 12:23

nawabs wrote:If they received an "unusual engine condition" report but no "summary" report, that could indicate that the flight did not end with a controlled landing (the unusual engine condition could have been flame out due to fuel starvation)

On the other hand, if they received a summary report, then the plane could be wheels down somewhere. Though what exactly triggers the summary report? Weight on wheels?

The content of the data they have will be very telling.


^^^ True.

Dont have factual information re. hoiw this plane transferred ACARS or how often AHM reported or what. In my extremely limited understanding, those are types of reports, and within available bandwidth more data is likely sent (one cruise report in 14 hour flight will be silly) as often as possible. This summary is an engine report, probably triggered by spool down. I suspect multiple abnormal/unusual reports may have been sent and received. If its VHF transmission, they have more than just the data due to range. This is only engine performance. What else was using ACARS or ACMS?. AHM in a civil airliner is probably not top secret, mangolians probably know what is on the air waves.

Not sure why they are releasing this in pieces. A lot of fuel would have been saved if this was disclosed up front.

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby Suraj » 13 Mar 2014 12:28

Engines have a specific landing mode, including the potential activation of thrust reversers, that will surely be logged by the engine management system and would be part of the summary report.

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby Singha » 13 Mar 2014 12:34

VHF would not work in middle of oceans? satcom appears more reliable just like making a thuraya phone call but via inmarsat(ships use it)?

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby Shreeman » 13 Mar 2014 12:39

Singha wrote:VHF would not work in middle of oceans? satcom appears more reliable just like making a thuraya phone call but via inmarsat(ships use it)?


Boeing says MH370 had no satcom (april airworthiness directive did not apply). They have data. Who know how.

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby Lalmohan » 13 Mar 2014 12:58

acars is optional, the extent of reporting optional. nav data if used is from INS. INS is coupled to GPS for update/correction. satcom is optional (and expensive - so not everyone automatically goes for it). outside vhf range, transmissions are not made. engine and other health reports are standardised and preset and transmitted at set intervals if in radio range - for maintenance log purposes. at best the last acars report would have been in vhf range from malaysia - say kuala terenganu or kota bahru airfield radios and then she's out over the sea - so it would have reported back on presumably all-izz-vell parameters

decompression is very possible, the turn around and descent could be to head for penang (large airfield) and possibly the crew lost situational awareness (like Air France) and she came down into the sea and sank fast

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby nawabs » 13 Mar 2014 12:59

WSJ - “The disappearance is officially now an accident and all information about this is strictly handled by investigators,” said another Rolls-Royce executive, citing rules by the International Civil Aviation Organization, a United Nations agency.

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby Sri » 13 Mar 2014 13:35

Missing Jet ‘May Have Flown for Extra Four Hours’

This means the plane may have traveled more than 2,000 additional nautical miles, reaching points as far as the Pakistani border or even the Arabian Sea, says the Journal.


India has also now agreed to help out with efforts. “Malaysia and India are in contact on this since yesterday and contact points are being discussed. These contact points will ascertain what assistance is required and what India can offer,” a spokesman at New Delhi’s Foreign Ministry said on Wednesday.

India boasts a large military command in its territory in the Andaman and Nicobar islands and operates navy patrols in the busy shipping routes of the Malacca Strait.

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby abhischekcc » 13 Mar 2014 13:37

If the airplane was diverted towards an undisclosed location, then it was probably carrying something of strategic value - that was intercepted.

The fact that China has put 10 satellites in service to find the plan indicates that they knew about this shipment, and were probably behind it.

And if the above scenario is true, then it is quite possible that the plane may have indeed been shot down.


I wonder what the cargo was - gold from western countries or a new type of virus?

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby habal » 13 Mar 2014 13:49

search is now shifted to Andaman Sea.

this is the most sophisticated form of hijack. If it had been guided away under instructions of ATC for fear of carrying some deadly consignment, then they would have known the location.

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby member_28352 » 13 Mar 2014 13:58

Where could the plane have gone. From as near as Andaman/Nicobar islands, a lot of them uninhabited, to eastern Sri Lanka, to islands of the Maldives or furthermost to Diego Garcia. Quite a large area to search.

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby krishnan » 13 Mar 2014 14:01

The report further says that American counterterrorism officials are probing whether the pilot or anyone else on board the aircraft could have forced the plane to another destination - after switching off the aircraft’s transponders to evade detection by radars.


i always thought radars dont need all these and will detect anyway

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby chetak » 13 Mar 2014 14:02

shiv wrote:Searches over vast areas of ocean are costly in fuel and airframe life. Other than coordinating with other search agencies and doing its bit, India need not go overboard in this wild goose chase. Why should India search with no holds barred in the Andaman sea while people are still searching in the South China sea?

If a P8 searches in a grid pattern 10 km wide and 100 km long it's stated range can cover about 10,000 to 20,000 sq km. depending on how far away the search as to start

But a circle with a radius of 1000 km from where the aircraft took off has an area of 3 million sq km. If 20% of that falls in the Andaman sea, it would require about 50 or more 5-6 hour sorties. If two P8s were used during the day just for this it could still take a month of continuous operation just for this search. It would be silly to divert every IN asset just for this, with no clue about where to look. That plane could be anywhere judging from the accuracy of sightings and "last seen" reports. The world was, and remains a big place.



Very true Hakim saab.

We may simply not be able to afford such an all out intensive search in terms of platform hours. Especially when the malays are playing very cagey and very close to their chest. Seems more like a political issue more than anything else.

This is not to sound cynical but practical, keeping in mind our own requirements. Vital assets will be laid up for long weeks and months in refit and inspections to make them sea and airworthy again. With the coming elections and some period of uncertainty expected, best to keep our powder dry to cater for unwanted neighborly attentions......

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby Lalmohan » 13 Mar 2014 14:02

what if it continued to turn and headed east... thats the only place for open water - until the good ol' spratley islands and then the philipines
heading west, she would have gone over the control area for alor star, georgetown, phuket before coming into the nicobar chain - no way she could have flown at altitude and made it all the way across there without being picked up on radar

so actually, ghost plane flying for 5 hours undetected over open water is not credible. she has come down and lies in davy jones locker

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby krishnan » 13 Mar 2014 14:08

Objects spotted by China not MH370 debris

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby chetak » 13 Mar 2014 14:11

krishnan wrote:
The report further says that American counterterrorism officials are probing whether the pilot or anyone else on board the aircraft could have forced the plane to another destination - after switching off the aircraft’s transponders to evade detection by radars.


i always thought radars dont need all these and will detect anyway


Very true, subject to the radar horizon onlee.

If the target is below the radar coverage, it will not be seen on the radar but some fishermen etc or passing ships etc will see it maybe and surely hear it if within range.

Looks like someone surely had very good knowledge of the radar coverage zones across multiple countries and also the clear path to evade most of the sensors.

Such knowledge is only available from military or intelligence sources and not from some chota mota countries either.

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby Lalmohan » 13 Mar 2014 14:18

the transponder is like IFF, identifies the aircraft on rader with a specific 'code', as opposed to a blip if no transponder

other possibility is a mid air collision with an unidentified aircraft - military or 'un-civil' (myanmar junta, indonesian pirate private jet, drone..., etc., etc.)
should have left debris, but possibly weather/sea conditions led to rapid sinking

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby Singha » 13 Mar 2014 14:20

imo she crossed Sumatra on a SW heading, continued for 5 hrs before ditching in middle of IOR north of kerguelen islands. emptiest quadrant of the world, not even any islands for a vast stretch.

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby krishnan » 13 Mar 2014 14:22

so if it was switched off then did some air defence shot it down as it couldnt identify it as as friend or foe ??? chinese also delayed letting people known about the sat image, wonder why

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby krishnan » 13 Mar 2014 14:23

Singha wrote:imo she crossed Sumatra on a SW heading, continued for 5 hrs before ditching in middle of IOR north of kerguelen islands. emptiest quadrant of the world, not even any islands for a vast stretch.


:mrgreen:

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby shiv » 13 Mar 2014 14:25

Any one searching on land?

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby nawabs » 13 Mar 2014 14:34

Now Malaysia’s defence and acting transport minister Hishammuddin Hussein said reports that the plane stayed in the air for several hours after losing contact were “inaccurate”. Hussein announced that Malaysia has shared raw military radar data with its international partners.

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby member_28440 » 13 Mar 2014 14:45

Malaysian Airlines MH370 Mystery – Hidden in Plain Sight

20 passengers on-board the flight were experts in this technology.

They belonged to a Austin, Texas-based company Freescale Semiconductors.

The 20 Freescale employees, among 239 people on flight MH370, were mostly engineers and other experts working to make the company’s chip facilities in Tianjin, China, and Kuala Lumpur more efficient, said Mitch Haws, vice president, global communications and investor relations.

“These were people with a lot of experience and technical background and they were very important people,” Haws said. “It’s definitely a loss for the company.”

Loss of employees on Malaysia flight a blow, U.S. chipmaker says

In Malaysia, Freescale’s modern operations facility that manufactures and tests integrated circuits (IC) is based in Petaling Jaya.

Based on information obtained from Freescale’s website, the facility began operations in 1972 covering an eight hectare site and is specifically designed for the manufacturing and testing of microprocessors, digital signal processors and integrated radio frequency circuits.

It also owns Freescale RF which is involved in creating solutions for Aerospace and Defence listed below.

1. Battlefield communication

2. Avionics

3. HF Radar – Band L- and S-

4. Missile Guidance

5. Electronic Warfare

6. Identification, friend or foe (IFF)

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Re: Malaysian Arilines Flight MH-370 goes missing

Postby Singha » 13 Mar 2014 15:05

in peacetime nobody would shoot a unid object just like that. this is no washington DC, lutyens dilli or better yet - Chelyabinsk type secret n-weapons city.


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