Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr 2014

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anupmisra
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby anupmisra » 09 May 2014 15:34

SSridhar wrote:
Pakistan has the capacity to produce 100,000 megawatts (MW) of electricity for the next 200 years as the country has reserves of coal comparing to combined oil reserves in energy equivalent terms of Iran and Saudi Arabia.


And here's the clincher:

Shaikh said there was an estimated 170 billion tones coal reserves to satisfy the energy needs of Pakistan. The reserves are buried deep under the desert sands and are separated by the reservoirs of fossilised aquifers.


There ya go! Bountiful energy and water. Happy times are just around the corner. Except that the land called al-bakistan will soon resemble it true inner arabian self:

Image

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby SSridhar » 09 May 2014 16:02


shiv
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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby shiv » 09 May 2014 17:00

arun wrote:Which are the most affected parts of the country and why?

North and South Waziristan together account for more than half of Pakistan's polio cases. Children in North Waziristan are at particular risk, as a ban on vaccination has been in place in the region since June 2012.

What is your view on the Taliban and other militant groups' violent opposition to polio vaccination campaigns, arguing that they are a cover for foreign spying?

The delivery of healthcare is impartial. WHO has repeatedly stated that public health interventions should not be used for any other purpose than the improvement of people's health.

How does the WHO intend to convince people of its vaccination program as there are still widespread public fears in the country that the vaccine leads to infertility?

The Pakistani public actually wants vaccination and has some of the lowest refusal rates in the world (less than one percent nationally). In parts of the country, there is mistrust of outsiders which is channeled into vaccination mistrust and rumors.

From here: Clicky

The snippets above, and earlier news that Pakjab had been trying to isolate people from Baluchistan and NWFP by preventing entry of unvaccinated people - that is by drawing a virtual internal border in Pakistan gave me thought.

I don't know whether my thought has any real strong basis or whether it is simply high hopes i.e. I am having the KL part of KLPD hoping for news that Shitistan is splitting. Anyhow let me post my thoughts.

It seems to me that gradually - almost in little hints and nudges - Pakis are looking at Waziristan and some of the other troubled areas in the west as a separate country. They do not declare it as separate but they are treating it that way.

Why do I say this?
1. Drawing an internal border in Pakistan because they cannot immunize children in Waziristan
2. Stating that Pakistan has "some of the lowest refusal rates in the world" for polio imunization. Clearly they are not including Waziristan in the Pakistan that they are talking about which has "some of the lowest refusal rates in the world". Waziristan has 100% refusal - which is the highest in the world - and unless it is not part of Pakistan that statistic excludes parts of Pakistan.

So we find Pakis not including parts of Pakistan that have declared independence as parts of Pakistan while they still pretend they have awhole country.

I hope the PD half of KLPD does not come and slap me in a few years. :((

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby Harish » 09 May 2014 18:21

shiv wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Many deceptions of Nawaz Sharif - G.Parthasarathy, Business Line

Sadly, few of our national leaders, perhaps with the exception of Narasimha Rao, understood how to deal with a complex personality like Nawaz Sharif.

As a new Government is scheduled to assume office soon in South Block, it will hopefully avoid getting starry-eyed about the prospects of immediate “breakthroughs” in relations with Pakistan.

The author is a former High Commissioner to Pakistan.


Goes to show how the entire Indian government bureaucracy who advise the government as all equally stupid in imagining that there can be any breakthroughs with Pakistan. problem is - for the past decade - with ignorant and arrogant bums like MSA and Kapil Sibal near the top coterie - everyone has closed their eyes and ears about Pakistan. A pity. Pakistan may yet screw us with an attack and open a few eyes - but as long as terrorism is low key Indians will be asleep. After all mugging is required to pass the IAS exam. Not thinking, And no exam needs to be passed to become a politician. With these people at the top nothing will move. I will be at the forefront of the criticize Modi campaign if his government is as blind as the Sonia-MMS combine


Something seems to happen to those who ascend to the reins of power in this country. They become sick(ular). Reasons and mechanisms unknown. I was reading NaMo's interview to ToI and it smacked of naive, starry-eyed optimism. He might as well have been a Congi.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby Rajiv Lather » 09 May 2014 18:57

Harish wrote:
Something seems to happen to those who ascend to the reins of power in this country. They become sick(ular). Reasons and mechanisms unknown. I was reading NaMo's interview to ToI and it smacked of naive, starry-eyed optimism. He might as well have been a Congi.


Exactly !

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby rgsrini » 09 May 2014 21:01

^^Saar. In his interview with Arnab, he was clear that no talks until terrorism stops. I believe he also mentioned that if India is strong, then all the problems will get resolved. Let us wait to see his appointments post election and after the government is formed. In any case, I highly doubt if he will ever be as horrible as MMS or Gujral.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby Gagan » 09 May 2014 21:21

The problem with being 'strong' is that Pakistan launches terror attacks because they want to show that they are 'strong' too.
At some level engagement will have to go on. Track II will always go on.

What one wants, is a strong thappad, with lasting repercussions every time the Pakis cross the line.

I favor reclaiming territory for each digression by them.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby shiv » 09 May 2014 21:42

I take back my words that Indians are not writing informed stuff about Pakhanaland. This one from IDSA ooks good - 156 pages (linked above)

Religion as the Foundation of a Nation - The Making and Unmaking of Pakistan

Here is an interesting quote, which I have read before but today it gave me a special aha moment
Jinnah initially was for accommodation within a united India in which Muslims had guarantees against their exploitation by the Hindu majority. The demand for Pakistan as a separate homeland was seriously taken up by him much later and that too more as a bargaining chip to secure the requisite guarantees for Muslims in post-British India


Jinnah played a game of "who'll blink first" and lost. He (any everyone esle in the Muslim league) had no idea what Pakistan was supposed to be. They simply expected that the Congress would be scared of splitting the country and acquiesce to separate Muslim electorates within India.

As it turned out, splitting the country was though to be a better idea than having mad fissiparous Muslims sitting in India rather than just those who wanted to stay in India. So they got Pakistan and did not know what to do with it.

I have reached page 14 of the pdf and it's looking good

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby RCase » 09 May 2014 23:49

SSridhar wrote:Alla'h Ta'ala has at last shown mercy.

Pakistan has capacity to produce 100,000 MW electricity for 200 years !
Pakistan has the capacity to produce 100,000 megawatts (MW) of electricity for the next 200 years as the country has reserves of coal comparing to combined oil reserves in energy equivalent terms of Iran and Saudi Arabia.


AoA! Bakistan is strategic to the world's future energy requirements. Forget kafir Yindia begging the Land of the Pure to buy stolen power from Bakistan's rivers. Bakistan being soup-e-rear, nooclear power can export its TFTA power to Yindia!

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby ramana » 10 May 2014 00:15

anupmisra, Looks like Bakis found the Zam Zam aquifier along with coal!!!

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby Gagan » 10 May 2014 00:16

Al Bakistan has Soup-e-rear power source too - Pindi chana gas! (refered to in local dialect as paad)
It sometimes causes vaccum explosions in the overcrowded cities and in Khyber Pakhtookhwa, but that is because the civlian gorment is corrupt and does not safely store the immense gas emissions.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby Prem » 10 May 2014 00:27

="RCase"][quote="SSridhar"lla'h Ta'ala has at last shown mercy.
Pakistan has capacity to produce 100,000 MW electricity for 200 years !

This Dil Behlane ki yeh kaffir khyal kaffi hai was expected after the news about india's potential to generate 1000Gw power from solar alone. in the meantime, mercury rising ..
[url=http://www.dawn.com/news/1105248/pakistans-water-crisis-now-at-par-with-terrorism-report]Pakistan's Water Broke

Pakistan's water crisis now at par with terrorism: report :((
MALSIMABAD: Pakistan’s water crisis is now at par with terrorism in terms of being an existential threat to the country’s security. This was the major concern raised by respondents, interviewed for Islamabad based think tank Jinnah Institute (JI)’s latest research report “Pakistan’s Water Discourse: Attitudes on Water Management Practices”, launched on Friday.The Jinnah Institute report collated perceptions of a wide range of policy stakeholders on the political economy of water management practices in Pakistan.According to the report, insufficient water storage capacity has greatly impacted the availability of water, while public debate on developing new infrastructure has stalemated in recent years.The limits of state capacity in addressing water-related challenges, underpinned by inadequate social infrastructure, lack of political consensus and financial constraints have been cited as the major roadblocks by a majority of respondents.Some water experts warn that Pakistan should prepare for an "environmental disaster", with the country’s seasonal monsoons shifting away from traditional catchment areas toward Afghanistan. ( Allah favouring Afghanistan over Poaoqolotoonland) This trend has multiplied the potential for flash floods and erratic rainfall.Annual water availability per capita has fallen drastically since Partition, from approximately 5000 cubic metres to nearly 1500 cubic metres, impacting marginalised communities and women the most. On the subject of trans-boundary water sharing, a majority of interviewees felt that the Indus Waters Treaty (IWT) had stood the test of time and largely served to protect Pakistan’s interests.However, they also expressed a dire need for a framework or treaty with Afghanistan to prevent future conflict between the two countries on the Kabul River.Former Amb. Shafqat Kakakhel spoke at the event and said the report supplements and aids a rich body of documentation.Former WAPDA Chairman Shamsul Mulk also spoke at the event and suggested that all objections on river flow data between provinces should be taken up in the Council of Common Interests (CCI).

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby Prem » 10 May 2014 01:17

Aqal Ke Qacche Qabila Nation Nahi Bacche: kauva Chall Hans Ki Chaall Orr Apni Bhi Bholl Gya
Let’s beehive like a nationBy Shamshad Ahmad

The scene of a Pakistan-bound refugee-packed train in a documentary film took me back subconsciously to the fateful train journey that my family (I was only a small child then) undertook in 1947 while migrating from India to the newly-created state of Pakistan leaving behind millions of others, their hearths and homes, their landed properties and their ancestral history of thousands of years to submerge into a new larger national identity. No sacrifice then was greater than freedom. No wonder, for my family as indeed for millions of others, it was a momentous decision to opt for Pakistan.
Memories of many scary moments and painful experiences from those days are still seared into my mind. I cannot forget the moments when our train, after crossing into Pakistan, steamed into Harbanspura Railway Station with everyone on the train crying with joy and raising spontaneous slogans “Allah-o-Akbar” and “Pakistan Zindabad”. Looking into the mirror, we only see a mutilated and disjointed nation. We see a mass of hollow people with wooden faces leaning together as a paralysed body making gestures without motion and reflecting an image of what TS Eliot once described as “shape without form and shade without colour”. We find ourselves a hapless nation, debilitating itself physically as well as spiritually and a country looted and plundered by its own rulers, left with no dignity and independence. We are not even ashamed of what we are doing to ourselves. We have become a begging-bowl country. The world also calls us the ‘most dangerous nation’ on earth. Isn’t it time for us to change and behave like a nation? :shock: Indeed, a nation, like an individual, is an organic entity which goes through different life-stages from birth and infancy to the identity crisis of adolescence, then evolving into a robust maturity and adulthood, and if not nourished and sustained through institutional strength with political, economic, social and moral steadiness, fading into decline and decadence. These stages are partly the result of government policies, priorities and patterns of governance, partly of the way leadership functions or malfunctions, and partly of the changing perceptions and preferences of the people. As a nation and as an independent state, where do we stand today?
With the Quaid-e-HAzam’s early demise, Pakistan was orphaned in its very infancy and lost the promise of a healthy youth with acute systemic deficiencies and normative perversities restricting its orderly natural growth. After the Quaid, it was left without any sense of direction and in a state of political bankruptcy and moral aridity. It started cutting itself into pieces, losing within less than quarter of a century not only its own half but also its very rationale that had inspired its founding fathers to struggle for a separate homeland for the Muslims of the subcontinent. The real Pakistan disappeared with its tragic dismemberment, and whatever was left is the pillage ground for its self-serving rulers.We are still not decided on some of the vital questions related to our statehood. Pakistan came into being in the name of Islam and democracy :rotfl: but it has lived without practising both. A country, which was considered a ‘20th century miracle’ of a state and which was fought and won entirely through democratic and constitutional struggle now itself struggles haplessly for genuine democracy and constitutional primacy. It is unsure of what its own original rationale was and what it stands for today. In the process, it is suffering an ideological ‘schizophrenia’, with a total disconnect between the vision that inspired its creation and its actual phonotypical behaviour.To make things even worse, in recent years, the so-called liberal elite and our pseudo intellectuals have been wilfully distorting our history, misleading the youth that Pakistan’s birth was only ‘an accident of history’ and that the India-Pakistan border is no more than an artificial ‘thin’ line drawn on paper. They are naïve enough to believe that if we were to erase this ‘thin’ line, there would be no India-Pakistan problems and we would live happily thereafter at peace together as ‘one people’ with no need for any armed forces. They are sadly mistaken and need a tutorial in history to know that Pakistan is not an accident of history.Those of us familiar with the history of the subcontinent know why having lived together for centuries, Hindus and Muslims remained poles apart in their attitudes to life with a different worldview altogether. This distinctiveness of the two communities was evident in the ‘encounter’ between Hindu and Muslim cultures that began over a thousand years ago. And yet, they remained distinct and far apart. Nobody can deny this reality; otherwise, there would not have been two states carved out of India in 1947.Pakistan came into being as a result of a long struggle and with unquantifiable sacrifices. It is now a reality with its borders drawn in blood that cannot be erased, not even through any ‘goodwill’ gestures that some of our ruling elite and media friends are eager to make.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby Anujan » 10 May 2014 01:35

Shiv-ji

Read numerous acounts of Jinnah all of which are true (to some extent). Basically fellow was not religious at all. On top of that he was barely even Indian. Or middle eastern for that matter. He didn't speak Persian or Arabic. Barely spoke Gujarati and Urdu. Was comfortable in suits and spoke English. Then how did he become a champion of partition? What did happen was an extaordinary convergence of interests which plagues Pakistan to this day.

The congress party was started as a coffee club of meritocracy + aristrocracy filled with western educated people. Jinnah was a part of that. Closer to independence though, they had the expedience of fighting elections. So leaders who were popular started an influx. People who were educated and popular started dominating. Think of Jinnah as an arstrocrat, Gandhi (educated + popular) and they both share the stage with some random popular semi educated people. Typically Hindi speaking paan chewing SDRE who has never been to London.

The power of aristrocracy was slipping. Being a leader of India was no longer like joining the Lahore gymkhana club. This was Jinnah's major takleef. He even had unkind things to say about Gandhi who he saw as a hypocrite for having abandoned his western ways.

His disappointment (and subsequent inability to win elections) would have ended in a whimper. There are interesting parallels. If you look at 1971 constitutional amendment in India to abolish privy purses (essentially free money given to random raja ranis by government of India ) the aristrocrats yelled and screamed and fought elections and lost. Then accepted the reality and quietly went home.

Except in Jinnah's case it was not just a disappointed aristrocracy but also a disappointed segment of population (which was expecting the glory of the mughal rule to return after the British left. They were sorely disappointed that there are going to be messy elections and not necessarily a monarchy or theocracy. (More on this later)

Jinnah wanted to marry his personal disappointment with popular fears and coat it with the paint of "minority protection". Therefore his proposal of 1/3 representation and various formulas which were rejected. Ofcourse he couldn't ride the tiger and partition happened.

Record of his disappointments are many. He proudly claimed he got Pakistan with just a typewriter and later lamented " what have I done"

His legacy continues till today. A bunch of pious faithfuls ruled by an aristrocracy which has to pander to the faithfuls now and then (but they enjoy their whiskey, women and song). Sometimes there are friction leading to people getting qadrified but Pakistan is slowly and steadily approaching its logical destination: a country with a power structure that reflects popular will and aspiration (eternal jihad, short shalwars and long beards). The marriage of convenience between aristrocracy and unwashed develops cracks when there is no external enemies to fight.

In short, is Jinnah "secular". I would think so. In his personal behavior and habits he showed no religiosity at all. Was he a hypocrite who exploited religious sentiments for power grab? Absolutely. Does that mean be was somehow "pro minority" not at all. Was he pro oligarchy? Totally. Essentially an oligarch who appeased religion for power grab and ended f'ing up the whole region. Hence the contradiction in all his speeches and actions and Pakistanis to this day wonder "What did the Quaid want?" -- whatever helped him with power grab.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby anupmisra » 10 May 2014 03:45

ramana wrote:anupmisra, Looks like Bakis found the Zam Zam aquifier along with coal!!!


Filtered water using charged charcoal.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby Cosmo_R » 10 May 2014 04:13

@Anujan ^^^ re Jinnah:

Irfan Hussain and the other guy who was a paki journo in DC (now dead) were just two who shed the light on Jinnah.

What he wanted was to be PM of India. Gandhi (according to them) supported him. Nehru (according to them) in his devious manner (and his liaison with the fair Edwina) outmaneuvered him on the basis that what he demanded (what we now call 'Class B' shares with 2-10x voting power) was 'disproportionate' representation for Muslims in a United India.

Rejection of this eminently rational :) idea meant Partition which therefore, was the fault of Nehru and the Hindus.

Whatever their reasons, these two as an example, believed that and I suspect that was what Jinnah himself thought or convinced himself of. This narrative is well established in the paki mind.

Personally, I think he just wanted to rule India, got frustrated, took his marbles and went elsewhere to sulk. I say this because (available to googlers) he eventually planned to retire to his home in Bombay.

But as we all know, "you can't go home again..."

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby Agnimitra » 10 May 2014 05:08

Anujan wrote:In short, is Jinnah "secular". I would think so. In his personal behavior and habits he showed no religiosity at all. Was he a hypocrite who exploited religious sentiments for power grab? Absolutely. Does that mean be was somehow "pro minority" not at all. Was he pro oligarchy? Totally. Essentially an oligarch who appeased religion for power grab and ended f'ing up the whole region. Hence the contradiction in all his speeches and actions and Pakistanis to this day wonder "What did the Quaid want?" -- whatever helped him with power grab.

Was "Allama" Iqbal secular? If personal habits and indulgences are the yardstick, then a case could be made that 1Ball was also secular. He indulged in liaisons and even orgies at times. Loved his wine, women and song. But all was woven into his "mystic" Sufi-gari. The "bold" and tempestuous assertion of one's "will" at the cost of another's is central to Iqbal's Islamism, which tries to marry a misunderstanding of Nietzsche's Ubermensch with Bhartrihari's ethics. The Superman must be bold and willful and contemptuous of those people who worship weakness (of which Gandhi must have been a symbol to their superficial minds). He must have a will to power. Thus, many very fashionable poets and writers who are Islamic icons in the subcontinent were not very halaal in their personal habits. That includes Ghalib and many others. In the Islamic mindset, the poets and the faqihs are sometimes at loggerheads, but the two streams join in certain individuals. In this romanticization, Jinnah, Iqbal, etc were such individuals. There are some high profile Companions of the Prophet who were also like that - not following any rules. BUT...they absolved themselves from rules by either making the ultimate sacrifice in jihad, or by being ace fighters or consultants and playing a decisive role in inflicting defeat on the kaafir. Clearly, Jinnah and Iqbal did this for many, or so they believe.

Jinnah may not have been overtly religious, but there was definitely some sense of superiority vis a vis Hindus. That in itself is enough to be Islamic. I have noticed a trans-generational evolution among Indians who convert to Islam or Christianity:
1. First generation convert is usually on fire, very motivated to preach, and very humbly grateful for being saved from his previous Hindu identity. Still retains a sense of community with Hindu jaatwallahs. But critical of their philosophies, etc.
2. Second generation convert has hand-me-down conviction and pride in separate identity. Fanatic about ritual observance and community duty. Very allergic to philosophies or practices of Hindus or others. Climbs the social ladder aggressively. Considers himself part of a trans-national chosen group at the cutting edge of God's plan for humankind.
3. Third generation - higher educated than #1 or #2. Has contempt for the "superstitious" part of his family's faith. BUT...retains a sense of superiority over Hindoos...considers his family's choice to convert correct, and a step in the right evolutionary direction. Considers himself a finished product of sorts. Considers himself capable of cherrypicking the good from everywhere, including from some parts of Hinduism.

Jinnah and Iqbal were like #3.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby SSridhar » 10 May 2014 06:13

shiv wrote:I take back my words that Indians are not writing informed stuff about Pakhanaland. This one from IDSA ooks good - 156 pages (linked above) . . . .I have reached page 14 of the pdf and it's looking good

I completely agree. I completed the first chapter, "The Origins of Muslim Separatism and the Pakistan Movement". I find it very accurate and elaborate too and captures all the points that we have discussed here for ages in a precise and cogent manner. I am adding this to the first post.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby r_subramanian » 10 May 2014 06:58

2 Indian reporters told to leave Pak in a week

Two Indian journalists based in Islamabad have been asked to leave Pakistan in a week’s time after their visas were not renewed for the last two months. No reasons have been given for the move.

The Pakistani High Commission in New Delhi said it had not received any communication from the foreign ministry in Islamabad on this issue. There was no official word from the Ministry of External Affairs in Delhi either.

The two journalists, Snehesh Alex Philip from the Press Trust of India and Meena Menon from The Hindu, were “verbally” told by the Pakistani foreign ministry Thursday that they should leave the country “within a week”, it is learnt.

Philip and Menon went to Pakistan in August 2013 and were given visas for three months and they were renewed every three months.
...

URL: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... in-a-week/

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby Anujan » 10 May 2014 07:28

^^^
This comes a year after they kicked out Anita Joshua of the Hindu and Rezaul hasan laskar of Press Trust of India. Which came soon after they kicked out Nirupma Subramanian.

Agnimitra wrote:Jinnah may not have been overtly religious, but there was definitely some sense of superiority vis a vis Hindus.

I should have enclosed "secular" in quotes. by "Secular" I did not mean "subscribing to the philosophy that one's opportunities should not depend on their religion. I mean more in the sense of "Doesnt care two hoots about the inconvenient aspects of his religion"

Yes Jinnah had some sense of superiority vis a vis Hindus. It is also important to note that he had the same sense of superiority vis-a-vis unwashed masses of his own co-religionists. Gandhi was a polar opposite -- no wonder that they never got along. This sense of superiority of Pakistani ruling classes vis-a-vis SDREs and their own co-religionists continues to this day. Good example is ZAB. Called his own countrymen as idiots.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby shiv » 10 May 2014 07:29

I just wonder whether we Indians (Hindu majority) have been completely delusional and applied the word secular to issues where it was never ever applicable.

Somehow we stupidly imagined secularism to mean giving equal weightage to all religions. Secularism never meant that. Secularism was always about equal weightage to all Christian sects, and when applied to Islam "secularism" was about considering all Muslim sects (Shia, Sunni, Ahmedi etc) equal. Secularism was never designed to allow heathen religions into equality and it is laughable that the foremost followers of the biggest heathen religion talk the loudest about their secularism - like a community of black Pygmes discussing elections to Ku Klux Klan club.

Basically this was because - a someone pointed out above - the Indian elite like Nehru and Jinnah considered themselves both white and Indian. Since their religion was not worn on the shoulder their behavior was secular - in that they did not trip the warning signs of Christian secularism by either pushning one sect, or heaven forbid, talk about heathen religions.

When people like Stephen Cohen talk of a secular Pakistani army they are referring to the equality of all Muslim sects in the Pakistan army (which is probably no longer true). Pakitan will be seen as secular as long as Muslim sects are considered equal. India can never be secular because it seeks to introduce a heathen religion into the pristine field of egalitarian secularism

When will Indians understand this?

I have the seed thoughts for a new thread here. is there any existing thread to strip "secularism" bare or is it too well known a topic?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby arun » 10 May 2014 08:49

r_subramanian wrote:2 Indian reporters told to leave Pak in a week .........{Snipped}...........

URL: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... in-a-week/


If this results in a cessation of travel to and from the Islamic of Pakistan, it is a good thing.

Meanwhile a Wall Street Journal article on the subject:

Two Indian Journalists Likely To Be Ousted from Pakistan

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby Prem » 10 May 2014 09:06

arun wrote:
r_subramanian wrote:2 Indian reporters told to leave Pak in a week .........{Snipped}...........URL: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... in-a-week/
If this results in a cessation of travel to and from the Islamic of Pakistan, it is a good thing. Meanwhile a Wall Street Journal article on the subject:Two Indian Journalists Likely To Be Ousted from Pakistan


India should put Dawn's Naqvi on Donkey to Lahore. :wink: Dont tell me he is Indian. someone told me a mighty sperm swam all the way from Jeddah with stop in Karachi to give him birth.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby shiv » 10 May 2014 09:13

SSridhar wrote:
shiv wrote:I take back my words that Indians are not writing informed stuff about Pakhanaland. This one from IDSA ooks good - 156 pages (linked above) . . . .I have reached page 14 of the pdf and it's looking good

I completely agree. I completed the first chapter, "The Origins of Muslim Separatism and the Pakistan Movement". I find it very accurate and elaborate too and captures all the points that we have discussed here for ages in a precise and cogent manner. I am adding this to the first post.

Good move

Here is the first para of the book
http://idsa.in/system/files/monograph36.pdf
Creation of Pakistan, a concept that flourished in the wasteland of an inferiority complex according to M.J. Akbar, was a unique human and political experiment. There are not many examples in the history of the mankind of attempts being made to create a nation by joining a vast multitude of people in the name of just the religion, disregarding the divisions among them due to ethnic, linguistic, regional, social and cultural factors, further accentuated by a total absence of any shared political ideology. The vision for the Islamic state of Pakistan tended to gloss over the fact that despite its fervent wish to be a strongly unitary and monolithic order, Islam had actually developed into a sharply divided philosophy under which the separating lines between the state, the society and the personal lives of the human beings were totally obliterated and sharp disagreements emerged over interpretation and
implementation of socio-religious beliefs and practices. The polity of the South Asian sub-continent was entering into totally unchartered waters with the endeavour to create in such a divided society a religion- based but ‘sectarian-neutral’ state, in which the polity and the religion were supposed to coexist side-by-side and, yet, the differing sectarian identities and commitments of its subject would not seriously impact on the interaction among them

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby KLNMurthy » 10 May 2014 10:30

Rajiv Lather wrote:
Harish wrote:
Something seems to happen to those who ascend to the reins of power in this country. They become sick(ular). Reasons and mechanisms unknown. I was reading NaMo's interview to ToI and it smacked of naive, starry-eyed optimism. He might as well have been a Congi.


Exactly !


Unlike the congis who fly off the handle and run their mouths, Modi gives measured and responsible replies, especially when it comes to foreign policy matters. In that same interview, when Arnab asked what he is going to do about US spying on India, he simply said he cannot act on news media reports; if he were to be in power, he will ascertain the information, analyze it, and make a decision.

This is a serious man. He is not a paki with verbal diarrhea. He is not there to give jingos a hard-on. He will decide what to do, and then he will see to it that it is done. At least, that's the overwhelming impression I get of him. If I am right, he would be absolutely unique among the leaders of any country on earth today.
Last edited by KLNMurthy on 10 May 2014 10:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby KLNMurthy » 10 May 2014 10:35

Jhujar wrote:Aqal Ke Qacche Qabila Nation Nahi Bacche: kauva Chall Hans Ki Chaall Orr Apni Bhi Bholl Gya
Let’s beehive like a nationBy Shamshad Ahmad

The scene of a Pakistan-bound refugee-packed train in a documentary film took me back subconsciously to the fateful train journey that my family (I was only a small child then) undertook in 1947 while migrating from India to the newly-created state of Pakistan leaving behind millions of others, their hearths and homes, their landed properties and their ancestral history of thousands of years to submerge into a new larger national identity. No sacrifice then was greater than freedom. No wonder, for my family as indeed for millions of others, it was a momentous decision to opt for Pakistan.
Memories of many scary moments and painful experiences from those days are still seared into my mind. I cannot forget the moments when our train, after crossing into Pakistan, steamed into Harbanspura Railway Station with everyone on the train crying with joy and raising spontaneous slogans “Allah-o-Akbar” and “Pakistan Zindabad”. Looking into the mirror, we only see a mutilated and disjointed nation. We see a mass of hollow people with wooden faces leaning together as a paralysed body making gestures without motion and reflecting an image of what TS Eliot once described as “shape without form and shade without colour”. We find ourselves a hapless nation, debilitating itself physically as well as spiritually and a country looted and plundered by its own rulers, left with no dignity and independence. We are not even ashamed of what we are doing to ourselves. We have become a begging-bowl country. The world also calls us the ‘most dangerous nation’ on earth. Isn’t it time for us to change and behave like a nation? :shock: Indeed, a nation, like an individual, is an organic entity which goes through different life-stages from birth and infancy to the identity crisis of adolescence, then evolving into a robust maturity and adulthood, and if not nourished and sustained through institutional strength with political, economic, social and moral steadiness, fading into decline and decadence. These stages are partly the result of government policies, priorities and patterns of governance, partly of the way leadership functions or malfunctions, and partly of the changing perceptions and preferences of the people. As a nation and as an independent state, where do we stand today?
With the Quaid-e-HAzam’s early demise, Pakistan was orphaned in its very infancy and lost the promise of a healthy youth with acute systemic deficiencies and normative perversities restricting its orderly natural growth. After the Quaid, it was left without any sense of direction and in a state of political bankruptcy and moral aridity. It started cutting itself into pieces, losing within less than quarter of a century not only its own half but also its very rationale that had inspired its founding fathers to struggle for a separate homeland for the Muslims of the subcontinent. The real Pakistan disappeared with its tragic dismemberment, and whatever was left is the pillage ground for its self-serving rulers.We are still not decided on some of the vital questions related to our statehood. Pakistan came into being in the name of Islam and democracy :rotfl: but it has lived without practising both. A country, which was considered a ‘20th century miracle’ of a state and which was fought and won entirely through democratic and constitutional struggle now itself struggles haplessly for genuine democracy and constitutional primacy. It is unsure of what its own original rationale was and what it stands for today. In the process, it is suffering an ideological ‘schizophrenia’, with a total disconnect between the vision that inspired its creation and its actual phonotypical behaviour.To make things even worse, in recent years, the so-called liberal elite and our pseudo intellectuals have been wilfully distorting our history, misleading the youth that Pakistan’s birth was only ‘an accident of history’ and that the India-Pakistan border is no more than an artificial ‘thin’ line drawn on paper. They are naïve enough to believe that if we were to erase this ‘thin’ line, there would be no India-Pakistan problems and we would live happily thereafter at peace together as ‘one people’ with no need for any armed forces. They are sadly mistaken and need a tutorial in history to know that Pakistan is not an accident of history.Those of us familiar with the history of the subcontinent know why having lived together for centuries, Hindus and Muslims remained poles apart in their attitudes to life with a different worldview altogether. This distinctiveness of the two communities was evident in the ‘encounter’ between Hindu and Muslim cultures that began over a thousand years ago. And yet, they remained distinct and far apart. Nobody can deny this reality; otherwise, there would not have been two states carved out of India in 1947.Pakistan came into being as a result of a long struggle and with unquantifiable sacrifices. It is now a reality with its borders drawn in blood that cannot be erased, not even through any ‘goodwill’ gestures that some of our ruling elite and media friends are eager to make.

From Shamshad Ahmed's lips to God's ears. May his kind prevail and may pakis stay away forever from India.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby KLNMurthy » 10 May 2014 10:38

Cosmo_R wrote:@Anujan ^^^ re Jinnah:

Irfan Hussain and the other guy who was a paki journo in DC (now dead) were just two who shed the light on Jinnah.

What he wanted was to be PM of India. Gandhi (according to them) supported him. Nehru (according to them) in his devious manner (and his liaison with the fair Edwina) outmaneuvered him on the basis that what he demanded (what we now call 'Class B' shares with 2-10x voting power) was 'disproportionate' representation for Muslims in a United India.

Rejection of this eminently rational :) idea meant Partition which therefore, was the fault of Nehru and the Hindus.

Whatever their reasons, these two as an example, believed that and I suspect that was what Jinnah himself thought or convinced himself of. This narrative is well established in the paki mind.

Personally, I think he just wanted to rule India, got frustrated, took his marbles and went elsewhere to sulk. I say this because (available to googlers) he eventually planned to retire to his home in Bombay.

But as we all know, "you can't go home again..."


Very succinct description of what actually happened. These are the core facts on top of which the lies of Pakis, Jaswant Singh, Advani, and all of the DIE are built.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby KLNMurthy » 10 May 2014 10:42

Agnimitra wrote:
Anujan wrote:In short, is Jinnah "secular". I would think so. In his personal behavior and habits he showed no religiosity at all. Was he a hypocrite who exploited religious sentiments for power grab? Absolutely. Does that mean be was somehow "pro minority" not at all. Was he pro oligarchy? Totally. Essentially an oligarch who appeased religion for power grab and ended f'ing up the whole region. Hence the contradiction in all his speeches and actions and Pakistanis to this day wonder "What did the Quaid want?" -- whatever helped him with power grab.

Was "Allama" Iqbal secular? If personal habits and indulgences are the yardstick, then a case could be made that 1Ball was also secular. He indulged in liaisons and even orgies at times. Loved his wine, women and song. But all was woven into his "mystic" Sufi-gari. The "bold" and tempestuous assertion of one's "will" at the cost of another's is central to Iqbal's Islamism, which tries to marry a misunderstanding of Nietzsche's Ubermensch with Bhartrihari's ethics. The Superman must be bold and willful and contemptuous of those people who worship weakness (of which Gandhi must have been a symbol to their superficial minds). He must have a will to power. Thus, many very fashionable poets and writers who are Islamic icons in the subcontinent were not very halaal in their personal habits. That includes Ghalib and many others. In the Islamic mindset, the poets and the faqihs are sometimes at loggerheads, but the two streams join in certain individuals. In this romanticization, Jinnah, Iqbal, etc were such individuals. There are some high profile Companions of the Prophet who were also like that - not following any rules. BUT...they absolved themselves from rules by either making the ultimate sacrifice in jihad, or by being ace fighters or consultants and playing a decisive role in inflicting defeat on the kaafir. Clearly, Jinnah and Iqbal did this for many, or so they believe.

Jinnah may not have been overtly religious, but there was definitely some sense of superiority vis a vis Hindus. That in itself is enough to be Islamic.
...



This idea of ubermensch Muslims living life to the full (mainly by eating vast amounts of beef and copulating as much as possible) in contrast to the repressed vegetarian weakling Hindus remains a standard theme in the speeches of Akbaruddin Owaisi.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby abhijitm » 10 May 2014 10:47

Gagan wrote:The problem with being 'strong' is that Pakistan launches terror attacks because they want to show that they are 'strong' too.
At some level engagement will have to go on. Track II will always go on.

What one wants, is a strong thappad, with lasting repercussions every time the Pakis cross the line.

Exactly. Talk is not the problem. Talk without thappad that is. You slap them hard and kick paki a$$ and then say we want to talk. Who cares then? What makes blood of jingo boil is only talk-talk but no slap-slap which is going on for last decade or so.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby SSridhar » 10 May 2014 12:17

Another Controversy - Edit, DT
The Supreme Court (SC) after a lapse of two years has accepted Zaid Hamid’s petition seeking a treason trial against some senior journalists who also happen to be associated with the South Asia Free Media Association (SAFMA). The allegation against SAFMA and the journalists is that they have been busy subverting and undermining the Two-Nation Theory and the glory of Islam. The petition even implicates the ministry of information and the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) Directorate for allowing such treacherous activities to continue. {AoA}

When the petition was first moved in 2012, it was rejected on some legal flaws by the SC’s registrar. Since then the petition had not been bought forward and neither did Zaid Hamid try to push the case. Its sudden acceptance, especially in the aftermath of the attack on Hamid Mir makes the whole affair rather intriguing. Why would the SC take up a petition now against the journalists, one of whom is Hamid Mir and some others when an application has been filed by in the Pakistan Electronic Media Regulatory Authority (PEMRA) against the television channel Mir works for to cancel its licence? Already petitions after petitions are being filed against the media group in question, most of them having been turned down by the courts. What persuaded the SC to intervene in a situation that is going to reinvent a new controversy?

Before this messy game of accusing fellow Pakistanis for their unpatriotic stance begins, it seems pertinent to question how the Two-Nation Theory and the glory of Islam are to be defined. Is there any unified and consensual definition of the Two-Nation Theory? Even if we manage one, is not the very idea behind this theory —there were two nations in India, Hindu and Muslim — irrelevant after the creation of Pakistan? Once Pakistan was created, the driving force of the Two-Nation Theory should have logically come to an end. On the definition of the glory of Islam, what scale would be used to measure it? Would it be checked against a Pakistani’s position on India, the US or Afghanistan or will there be some deeper scrutiny on morality, etc? Filing a petition on such vague concepts would only muddy the waters further and simply be a waste of time in defining things that do not really matter at the present. *

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby Agnimitra » 10 May 2014 13:05

Anujan wrote:I should have enclosed "secular" in quotes. by "Secular" I did not mean "subscribing to the philosophy that one's opportunities should not depend on their religion. I mean more in the sense of "Doesnt care two hoots about the inconvenient aspects of his religion"

Yes Jinnah had some sense of superiority vis a vis Hindus. It is also important to note that he had the same sense of superiority vis-a-vis unwashed masses of his own co-religionists.

Not exactly the "same" sense of superiority vis a vis unwashed co-religionists versus all (including educated) Hindoos. W.r.t. one's own "uncut diamond" co-religionists, there is still the sense that they possess a primeval sort of "power" and their ability to mobilize is greater than the Hindoo. They feel that this primeval power was unlocked by affiliation with their particular religion, and the culture of its Master Races. Jinnah played a very high stakes political game, and he couldn't have done so without feeling that Islamist "street action" was capable of taking on a Hindoo majority. Jinnah was also the defence in the case of the unwashed carpenter-turned-ghazi Ilm-ud-din, who murdered an educated Hindu publisher in Lahore for blaspheming the Prophet.

shiv wrote:I just wonder whether we Indians (Hindu majority) have been completely delusional and applied the word secular to issues where it was never ever applicable.

Somehow we stupidly imagined secularism to mean giving equal weightage to all religions. Secularism never meant that. Secularism was always about equal weightage to all Christian sects, and when applied to Islam "secularism" was about considering all Muslim sects (Shia, Sunni, Ahmedi etc) equal. Secularism was never designed to allow heathen religions into equality and it is laughable that the foremost followers of the biggest heathen religion talk the loudest about their secularism - like a community of black Pygmes discussing elections to Ku Klux Klan club.

Basically this was because - a someone pointed out above - the Indian elite like Nehru and Jinnah considered themselves both white and Indian. Since their religion was not worn on the shoulder their behavior was secular - in that they did not trip the warning signs of Christian secularism by either pushning one sect, or heaven forbid, talk about heathen religions.

When people like Stephen Cohen talk of a secular Pakistani army they are referring to the equality of all Muslim sects in the Pakistan army (which is probably no longer true). Pakitan will be seen as secular as long as Muslim sects are considered equal. India can never be secular because it seeks to introduce a heathen religion into the pristine field of egalitarian secularism

When will Indians understand this?

I have the seed thoughts for a new thread here. is there any existing thread to strip "secularism" bare or is it too well known a topic?

Shiv ji, try the Bharatiya thread in this main forum. Or there is a "secularism - boon or bane" thread in GDF.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby arun » 10 May 2014 17:15

Article on the thrall in which the Mohammadden Ashraf religious elites of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan hold the masses.

The Purest of the Pure Ashraf religious elites are four different spiritual gaddis (seat of the dynasties) inamely Hur Jamaat (led by Pir Pagara), Ghousia Jamaat (led by PTI leader Shah Mehmood Qureshi), Sarwari Jamaat of Makhdooms of Haala and Jilani Gaddi of Pir Gul Mohammad Shah Jilani.

As insurance to fend off cries of Wajib ul Qatal, article adds “This phenomenon of avid following is not limited to the Muslims, and there have been spiritual leaders in local Hindus as well”:

Pirs of Sindh: Blind faith

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Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr 2014

Postby Peregrine » 10 May 2014 21:09

Two dead, 30 injured in Sindh earthquakes
KARACHI : A series of small earthquakes hit southern Pakistan on Friday, killing at least two persons and injuring 30 others, officials said.

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Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr 2014

Postby Peregrine » 10 May 2014 21:23

In search of education
A nation - Pakistan - without education is little more than a gathering of apes and monkeys. (This is one well known fact that we Indians are all aware of) Unless we start investing massively in education, science, technology and innovation, as was done by Singapore, Korea, Malaysia, China and others, we - Pakistanis - are destined to remain a nation of apes and monkeys.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby schinnas » 10 May 2014 22:58

Jhujar wrote:Pakistan's Water Broke
Pakistan's water crisis now at par with terrorism: report
MALSIMABAD: Pakistan’s water crisis is now at par with terrorism in terms of being an existential threat to the country’s security....On the subject of trans-boundary water sharing, a majority of interviewees felt that the Indus Waters Treaty (IWT) had stood the test of time and largely served to protect Pakistan’s interests.


This is something I don't fully comprehend. Pakistan and India have two critical bilateral agreements / treaties - 1) IWT and 2) Simla accord. While India is sincere in honoring IWT, Pakistan never respects Simla agreement to resolve Kashmir bilaterally. What prevents us from equating these two and squeezing STFU-P every time they try to take up Kashmir internationally. I don't buy the theory that our sincerity in honoring IWT is critical for us to eventually get China agree to (and abide by) similar such agreements for Brahmaputra. China doesn't play ball that way from what I understand.

I hope the new government realized this fully and as part of the river integration project integrates tributaries of Indus to a national river network. Am I asking for something unreasonable?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby Prem » 11 May 2014 05:56

BJP’s election rhetoric may impact Pak-India ties; uncertainty in region

LCG= Lahori Channa Gas

Islamabad: Narendra Modi’s likely ascension to Indian premiership has caused huge uncertainty in the region. And his foreign policy inclinations, identified for his anti-Muslim rhetoric, are not known. This has added to concerns of neighbours in particular, said speakers at a roundtable discussion ‘Contemporary Regional Dynamics in Nuclearized South Asia’ held here other day.
“We do not expect justice and fair play in these matters based on politics. We do, however, ask for a credible system at the regional and global level for the reduction of uncertainties caused by developments like the rise of Modi in India”, said Pakistan’s former ambassador to Russia Mr Khalid Khattak while addressing t
he seminar organized by Strategic Vision Institute the experts called for a credible system that could address such uncertainties. Indo-US nuclear cooperation had served a bigger blow to the non-proliferation initiative than the Ukraine crisis, Khattak said while adding that nuclear proliferation should not be viewed separately from the political context. He stressed upon to analyze the required political environment to deal with proliferation matters.Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) is expected to emerge as the single largest party in the ongoing elections in India. MrModi has been named as BJP’s candidate for the office of the prime minister while BJP manifesto pledges to give up “no-first-use” policy on nuclear weapons, once voted into power.Moreover, foreign policy inclinations of Modi, identified for his anti-Muslim rhetoric, are not known. This has added to concerns of neighbours in particular.President Strategic Vision Institute and Author Dr Zafar Iqbal Cheema on this occasion said that BJP’s belligerent election rhetoric could impact bilateral Pak-India ties under a likely BJP government.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby shiv » 11 May 2014 09:52

Jhujar wrote:BJP’s election rhetoric may impact Pak-India ties; uncertainty in region

LCG= Lahori Channa Gas

We do, however, ask for a credible system at the regional and global level for the reduction of uncertainties caused by developments like the rise of Modi in India

That's a no brainer. Have a system of regular army coups like shitistan

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby Vikas » 11 May 2014 11:06

^ Give up Nukes and we promise, all uncertainties will be removed.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr

Postby pgbhat » 11 May 2014 11:32


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Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr 2014

Postby Peregrine » 11 May 2014 15:23

Pakistan again violates ceasefire along LoC in Poonch
JAMMU : Pakistani troops again targeted Indian posts along the line of control (LoC) in Poonch district of Jammu and Kashmir, drawing a retaliation from Indian troops.

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