Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 21 Apr 2014

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 13 Jul 2014 03:13

Arjun wrote:Highly evangelical religions have always tended to attract the lower IQ segment of the population - so there's no particular mystery to this. Both evangelical Christianity & Islam, as examples, are growing rapidly WITHIN The US - and the PEW statistics on education and other attainment by denomination are there for all to see.

I don't think you meant to say that.

Most Hindus converted out of fear for their lives. They chose to live rather than die. Note the Rajpoots who either fled to the hills (such as to Nepal or the Terrai), or chose to wander in the west as gypsies, or accepted the conversion rather than be killed. Read Sita Ram Goel's Heroic Hindu Resistance to Muslim Invaders. Many others converted due to financial reasons (bribes, taxes, levies...). I read somewhere that some rajas and sardars of villages in Sindh and Punjab converted with a guarantee from the invaders that their subjects will be spared the conversion. True? Who knows. Many of these converts reverted to Hinduism once the invaders had gone away. Thirdly, there were a few opportunists among the higher castes (Brahmins and Kshatriyas) who chose to convert as that would enable them to continue to remain in positions of power. Sufis also did their bit by mixing elements of Vedic beliefs with islam as a means to induce the lower castes over.

Pakistan is the end result of the admixtures of all of the above. The pakis that still carry Rajpoot surnames are a case in point. Many Rajpoots that serve the paki army come from Pakjab. Their successive losses and their penchant for fighting on behalf of the highest bidder all reflect their history. Therefore, untrustworthy by nature.

JMTC

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 13 Jul 2014 03:42

Pakistan is just a product of landowning classes coopting the aristocracy with their fear of democracy and both of them making a fool out of the clergy into supporting them.

The making a fool out of the religious people has continued to this day when they have been again made a fool out of to get their sons and daughters killed for strategic depth in Afghanistan and to give India a thousand cuts.

True renaissance can happen only when the religious types demand land reforms from the landed arostrocracy as repayment of the blood of their brethren sent to fight in Afghanistan and India. They should also question the jernails who continue to drink their whiskeys, get plots of land, get cushy jobs post retirement and mete out collective punishment while in service.

For all the sacrifice that the righteous and the faithful have done, why are they still being exploited by the army and the landed aristocracy and being denied their fair share of the spoils and a seat in the decision making table?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Jul 2014 03:48

Good idea. Should spread it around.

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 13 Jul 2014 04:10

Rana wrote:How does it make sense to have a pipeline from Iran through Pakisatan to meet India's needs, and at the same time justify a pipeline going the other way to export from India? Would like to see those two project reports for creative cost benefit analysis.

SSridhar wrote:It makes sense because both are 'peace pipes'. The policy confusion wrt Pakistan continues. Just as some of us here expected.

Sridhar Ji & Rana Ji :

The so called Iran-Pakistan-India - as well as the Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan-India - Natural Gas Pipe Line(s) would supply Natural Gas to Pakistan as well as India.

Cheers

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 13 Jul 2014 06:38

KLNMurthy wrote: The RAPEs seriously believe that their lowly status in the world vis-a-vis Indian SDREs is because India has cultivated a better image. Articles like this are their actual, earnest effort to fight back in this image war that exists in their mind.

I agree. Successive governments in Pakistan felt that all that ailed Pakistan was lack of a 'suitable image' and they set about polishing it. In 2004, Musharraf had authorized a project called “Softer Image of Pakistan”, to project the country in a better light abroad. Musharraf strongly felt that the US had sullied the fair image of Pakistan after 9/11 even though none of the hijackers was from Pakistan and even though Pakistan had captured a large number of Al Qaeda/Taliban terrorists and handed them over to the US ! So, he set about rectifying that image by hiring Ogilvy at a huge cost to do so, even as all the money was coming from the US itself ! It reminds one of that cartoon of the bomb coming from the US, passing Pakistani hands and then being lit under the American behinds.

Inside the country, however, failures were explained away by blaming others, usually Yahud, Hanud & Nasara.

In order to present an image of “shining Pakistan” to not only its own people but also the rest of the world, the Pakistani government started fudging figures and removing those in Planning Commission who were a hindrance to this process. This ‘window dressing’ assumed huge proportions during the tenure of Prime Minister [Short Cut] Abdul Aziz and President Musharraf that when Aziz quit the job, the whole edifice collapsed like a pack of cards.

Even when the events of 1947, 1948, 1964, 1965, 1971 and 1999 proved otherwise, the Pakistani military claimed victories lest the carefully cultivated image of superior strength of the Pakistani military vis-a-vis India be shattered.

What is the thinking behind the 'image' projection ? The US leaders and academics were naively taken in by the larger-than-life image of Pakistani military and its generals, probably propagated by the British and swallowed hook-line-and-sinker by the Americans. For example, a Harvard professor of fame like Samuel Huntington said of Ayub Khan thus: "More than any other political leader in a modernising country after World War II, Ayub came close to filling the role of a Solon or Lycurgus, or 'Great Legislator' on the Platonic or Rousseauean model." President Eisenhower and Vice-President Nixon were also equally charmed by Ayub Khan. Added to this was John Foster Dulles' impression of 'Pakistani Muslim Gurkha' soldiers and more importantly, the negative impression of India that added to Pakistan's 'image' even more.

So, they are convinced that it is 'good image' that matters after all.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Jul 2014 06:43

Baikul wrote: A while ago- don't have so many posts on BR so it should not be hard to find- I'd proposed the filter of (IIRC) 'Rejection and Divorce' for understanding the actions of a Pakistani individual, group, caste, sect, organization or even the entire nation state.

<snip>

Whereas other healthier cultures also 'accept and assimilate' apart from 'rejecting and divorcing', Pakistan and Pakistanis can only do the latter.

I have found this framework to be useful if one wants to predict how they will react over a period of time to pretty much anything.

+1

"Rejection and Divorce"

That was one heck of an insightful post - I need to burn those words into my memory - "rejection and divorce" because that is exactly how Pakis have behaved. When I think about it, the explanation rejection and divorce is a far more lucid explanation of Pakistani actions than what Stephen Cohen acknowledged " Cutting off one's nose to spite one's face"

What bothers me is the following. What exactly was the factor that made a series of Pakistani leaders, Paki movers and shakers to carry exactly this attitude forward for over six decades. Surely - somehow, somewhere, someone should have had the brains to figure out that rejection and divorce from parts of yourself cannot be beneficial. You only get smaller, not bigger,

There is this mysterious concept of "Pakistaniyat" - the "idea of Pakistan". A Paki on DFI got angry when I mocked that idea but the idea itself is so vague, I cannot help suspecting that this Paki rejection and divorce are inextricably linked to the idea of Pakistan. The Idea of Pakistan seems to have the following components

Moral, legal, physical and cultural superiority over Hindus/India
God given right to rule
Islam
An strange idea that Allah will somehow come to their aid every time no matter what

I have put Islam lower on the list because Islam does not appear to be the first priority. Even Islam and Muslims will be killed and rejected if they deviate from the first two ideals.

All this classifying is all very well - but how come no Pakistani figured out that this game is a dead end?

Maybe Pakis fooled themselves into thinking that US aid and US support will get them India. I tink one statement stand out in my mind

hans ke liye Pakistan. Lar ke lenge Hindustan

roughly translatable as:

We laughed while we got Pakistan. We will fight and get India

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Jul 2014 07:06

Shiv, May be the innermost layer that propels the Paki hamartia of "R&D" (TM Baikul) is they still retain "neti, neti!" : Not This, Not This!" from their Hindu ancestors.
----------------
For lurkers Hamartia = Fatal Flaw in Greek!

After all Hindus are Sukrat ka baap and Aflatoon ka abba!!!

Again inn case you need to know
Sukrat = Socrates
Aflatoon = His disciple Aristotle

sadhana · Post by **sadhana** » 13 Jul 2014 07:31

1. I am guessing, historically, the Turki/Persian speaking ruling class lived in isolation from the ruled, separated from them via language, class, origin, walled cities.
Some Pakistanis actually have that historical isolation as their cultural inheritance, and remain mentally separated from those they rule over. Pakistan nationalism would have been the modernizing way out of that isolation via common nationhood but didn't have sufficient success.

2. The custom of marrying cousins perpetuates insularity of a community with the rest of the population. A study done in UK and quoted on BRF some years ago noticed this major difference in how Sikh and Muslim immigrants from adjoining regions in India/Pak assimilated in wider UK society. Sikhs are forbidden from marrying within family/relations so had to cultivate widening circles of people after every marriage with strangers. Muslims married within family, often importing brides from back home so became more and more inward looking and insular as a community in contrast.

3. In my view, the Pakistani elite have scant memory or tradition of or respect for any anti-colonial struggle. They consider themselves inheritors or associates of the departing British rulers- independence and self-rule was won from Hindus not the British. Nationalism and common cause among Pakistanis is defined wrt Hindus not the British. The British connection was/is desired and the loss of it lamented. Hence, the feudal social and economic relations between Pakistanis of various classes that existed before the British continued unexamined and unchallenged for many decades(by and large). (My wild guess is -no such thing as an Indian independence movement is taught in their textbooks).

4. Muslim society respects force and power as source of legitimacy among rulers more than public consent via elections or anything else. So caring for other people is less successful than individual efforts to gain power. Any Muslim social reformer/activist will be respected, but will gain little (moral or any other) power over people from the respect he/she earned. To be respected, he needs to have a militia or enormous wealth.

JMTC.

partha · Post by **partha** » 13 Jul 2014 08:41

Many interesting terms and theories get proposed in this thread from time to time like R&D by Baikulji. Can they all be saved somewhere for future reference? BRF dictionary can probably be extended for this purpose. Ping Armenji.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Jul 2014 08:42

sadhana wrote:1. I am guessing, historically, the Turki/Persian speaking ruling class lived in isolation from the ruled, separated from them via language, class, origin, walled cities.
Some Pakistanis actually have that historical isolation as their cultural inheritance, and remain mentally separated from those they rule over.

An excellent, archivable post there sadhana.

It could not have escaped the consciousness of this ruling class that coercive military power is the key to maintenance of such power and status along with the isolation from the ruled. This gels in perfectly with several other things that have come up on BRF

1. Ramana's observation that the behaviour of the ruling class of Pakistan is like that of a "kabila" - a military camp.
2. The dependence, intermarriage and admiration of the elite Pakistanis and the Pakistani military and the inability of Pakistan (the country) to divorce governance from the military
3. The isolation of the elite from the proletariat - allowing the "other Pakistani" elite to stage Vagina monologues, fashion shows and have un-burqa-ed Filipino maids in pants - at least until Mumtaz Qadri established a new way of thinking with Salman Taseer as an example
4. Islam being fully compatible with all the above ideals - the oligarchy and the coercion.
5. It explains how teh army and the elite are the primary maintainers of the "idea of Pakistan" and what you have summed up probably corresponds exactly to the idea of Pakistan

It is also noteworthy that all Track II dialogue tales place between an English speaking elite of India and the elite of Pakistan who represent the kabila, but their Indian counterparts don;t seem to have understood this. Hence we get morons like Mani Shankar Aiyer, and wotzisname Kulkarni and others

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 13 Jul 2014 08:58

shiv wrote:
Baikul wrote: A while ago- don't have so many posts on BR so it should not be hard to find- I'd proposed the filter of (IIRC) 'Rejection and Divorce' for understanding the actions of a Pakistani individual, group, caste, sect, organization or even the entire nation state.

<snip>

Whereas other healthier cultures also 'accept and assimilate' apart from 'rejecting and divorcing', Pakistan and Pakistanis can only do the latter.

I have found this framework to be useful if one wants to predict how they will react over a period of time to pretty much anything.

+1

"Rejection and Divorce"

That was one heck of an insightful post - I need to burn those words into my memory - "rejection and divorce" because that is exactly how Pakis have behaved. When I think about it, the explanation rejection and divorce is a far more lucid explanation of Pakistani actions than what Stephen Cohen acknowledged " Cutting off one's nose to spite one's face"

What bothers me is the following. What exactly was the factor that made a series of Pakistani leaders, Paki movers and shakers to carry exactly this attitude forward for over six decades. Surely - somehow, somewhere, someone should have had the brains to figure out that rejection and divorce from parts of yourself cannot be beneficial. You only get smaller, not bigger,

There is this mysterious concept of "Pakistaniyat" - the "idea of Pakistan". A Paki on DFI got angry when I mocked that idea but the idea itself is so vague, I cannot help suspecting that this Paki rejection and divorce are inextricably linked to the idea of Pakistan. The Idea of Pakistan seems to have the following components

Moral, legal, physical and cultural superiority over Hindus/India

God given right to rule

Islam

An strange idea that Allah will somehow come to their aid every time no matter what
I have put Islam lower on the list because Islam does not appear to be the first priority. Even Islam and Muslims will be killed and rejected if they deviate from the first two ideals.

All this classifying is all very well - but how come no Pakistani figured out that this game is a dead end?

Maybe Pakis fooled themselves into thinking that US aid and US support will get them India. I tink one statement stand out in my mind
hans ke liye Pakistan. Lar ke lenge Hindustan
roughly translatable as:
We laughed while we got Pakistan. We will fight and get India

If we are going to use the "rejection and divorce" metaphor to explain Pakistan, then we have to note that it is a very dysfunctional and clingy kind of divorce we are talking about. When a person divorces a spouse, he or she may go about their personal life in a normal, healthy way after a period of adjustment to the change. That's a healthy kind of divorce. The other kind of divorce is a tantrum and a refusal to even acknowledge that there is a mutual responsibility to work together and manage differences. In a divorce like that, the divorcing partner doesn't just peacefully "leave", he or she remains obsessed with everything the divorced ex-partner does, one moment badmouthing them, another moment trying to harm them, all the while demanding that the divorced partner somehow continue to "take care" of the divorcing partner, in a one-way street demand for affection.

In the first kind of divorce, children have a good chance of growing up more or less normal, whereas the second kind is a factory for making problem children who grow up into problem adults, thus perpetuating the dysfunctional irresponsible DNA across generations.

The second kind of divorce describes Pakistan's attitude towards India. It is an almost intractable situation, one thing the divorced partner is advised to do is to not accept the role that the divorcing partner has written out for them, out of old habit, "concern for children", or whatever, instead just take a firm line on the separation, pushing away all overtures and attempts to establish a relationship and make claims on the divorced partner's affection etc.

Stepping outside the metaphor, what keeps TSP going in a material sense is USA's aid and support; but what keeps it up psychologically and spiritually is India's willingness to act as the dharma-patni who has been divorced by a bad-character scoundrel of a husband, but who willingly and patiently plays a supportive role--albeit sometimes grudgingly, albeit reacting harshly at times--that the scoundrel has written out for her. Compare the number of times Indian voices say, "a strong and powerful Pakistan is in India's best interests" with the number of times Pakistani voices say, "a strong and powerful India is in Pakistan's best interests" to see what I mean.

And shiv, as long as India continues to play its part in this one-sided sick romance, it is not a dead-end for Pakistan, and that is why it is able to keep up the game indefinitely--it has played it for nearly 70 years, and the board has not changed significantly; Pakistan continues to rack up emotional / psychological sustenance points at a pace that maybe slow, but still steady.

The way to put an end to the beast is to take away the psychological support, and yes "love", that India is providing for Pakistan. To withdraw support in this way is a long way from happening, since India is caught deep in the throes of this dysfunctional and, for India, harmful and costly, relationship.

The risk is that, if Pakistan ever gets psychologically hollowed out by India's full and complete rejection and loses all hope, will it despair enough to start a nuclear war? I personally think the survival instinct is too strong for that to happen realistically. Also, as the silly and pathetic attempt to boost their "image" shows, Pakis are, as a class, low-down creatures who will talk big, but only aspire to nothing more than crumbs of other people's dross. That's not the psychology of people who, like mighty Samson, will bring down the temple on themselves and their enemies.

It will take time to change India's attitude towards Pakistan, away from today's knee-jerk "love" to something that is not quite hate, but utter indifference and a desire to be as far away as possible from Pakistan, emotionally speaking. But this time period can be used to work out how to engineer and manage the psychological collapse of Pakistan.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 13 Jul 2014 09:32

Sialkot Statistics is in fact Sialkot Spellingmistake

http://tribune.com.pk/story/734985/govt ... as-a-typo/

After being caught out giving incorrect economic growth rate for its first fiscal year, the government said on Saturday that the 3.3% growth rate reported to the International Monetary Fund (IMF) was a ‘typo’ and an ‘inadvertent oversight’.

The finance ministry further said that whereas for FY2014-15, the GDP growth of around 4% was mentioned instead of 5% – yet another ‘typo’. It added that the same clarification has also been issued to the IMF.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Jul 2014 09:45

KLNMurthy wrote:
In the first kind of divorce, children have a good chance of growing up more or less normal, whereas the second kind is a factory for making problem children who grow up into problem adults, thus perpetuating the dysfunctional irresponsible DNA across generations.

The second kind of divorce describes Pakistan's attitude towards India. It is an almost intractable situation, one thing the divorced partner is advised to do is to not accept the role that the divorcing partner has written out for them, out of old habit, "concern for children", or whatever, instead just take a firm line on the separation, pushing away all overtures and attempts to establish a relationship and make claims on the divorced partner's affection etc.

Stepping outside the metaphor, what keeps TSP going in a material sense is USA's aid and support; but what keeps it up psychologically and spiritually is India's willingness to act as the dharma-patni who has been divorced by a bad-character scoundrel of a husband, but who willingly and patiently plays a supportive role--albeit sometimes grudgingly, albeit reacting harshly at times--that the scoundrel has written out for her. Compare the number of times Indian voices say, "a strong and powerful Pakistan is in India's best interests" with the number of times Pakistani voices say, "a strong and powerful India is in Pakistan's best interests" to see what I mean.

And shiv, as long as India continues to play its part in this one-sided sick romance, it is not a dead-end for Pakistan, and that is why it is able to keep up the game indefinitely--it has played it for nearly 70 years, and the board has not changed significantly; Pakistan continues to rack up emotional / psychological sustenance points at a pace that maybe slow, but still steady.

Unfortunately what you say about India's "everlasting" love for Pakistan is true. Sati Savitri can't hold a candle to us dharmic injuns here

"Mera ghar khula hai, khula hi rahega tumhaare liye" is India's overall idiotic lament." - riding on the back of serial excuses - "They are like us only", "We cannot choose our neighbours" etc.

I suspect some inroads have been made into Indian brains by Pakistani acts of love like 26/11. Unrelenting terrorism from 1979 to 2009-10 have had some effect on the Indian psyche - but the old guard still call the shots.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 13 Jul 2014 09:56

shiv wrote: ...

Unfortunately what you say about India's "everlasting" love for Pakistan is true. Sati Savitri can't hold a candle to us dharmic injuns here

"Mera ghar khula hai, khula hi rahega tumhaare liye" is India's overall idiotic lament." - riding on the back of serial excuses - "They are like us only", "We cannot choose our neighbours" etc.

I suspect some inroads have been made into Indian brains by Pakistani acts of love like 26/11. Unrelenting terrorism from 1979 to 2009-10 have had some effect on the Indian psyche - but the old guard still call the shots.

I think love-taps like 26/11 generate more puzzlement and anger than the beginnings of any kind of a hard-edged, diamond-like understanding and clarity regarding Pakistan vis-a-vis India. (BRF being a kind of ivory-tower exception). So we go between raging and unrealistically wanting to wage a shooting war and showering love, hoping that this time they will "see reason." It is very hard for people to reject their own feelings, usually feelings come first and logic comes later; but on the whole, our feelings about Pakistan are what are leading us on the wrong path. The feelings are wrong because Pakistan is such an outlier in reality, but human mind doesn't deal well with outliers.

How wrong are the feelings and how much of a psychological outlier is Pakistan? As gauged from Sudheendra Kulkarni's output from his recent excursion to Pakistan, basically all that Pakistanis said, and have consistently been saying, is: hey India, please do x, y, and z for us, and we Pakistanis will think about you in a more kindly way. Not even by mistake have they ever said: India, please do x, y and z for us, and we will definitely do p and q, and will negotiate on r.

This is an absurd bargain that Pakistan offers us time and again, and yet it is also a completely honest one. They have never broken their word to us, because they have never given it; we, meaning hifalutin brahmin-type intellectuals with awe-inspiring academic pedigrees like Sudheendra Kulkarni et al, have time and again, simply failed to hear what Pakistanis have been saying to us. I don't really know why, and as a rule, I don't buy readymade pat explanations like we are stupid, or the individuals concerned are traitors, and so forth. But what I suspect is that we, literally, can't believe that we are hearing something so absurd and outrageous, therefore our minds invent something that is more believable.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Jul 2014 11:04

KLNMurthy wrote: But what I suspect is that we, literally, can't believe that we are hearing something so absurd and outrageous, therefore our minds invent something that is more believable.

This is correct IMO - but it is equally true of the US as new views of Pakistan come in from people like Gall, Fair and even Riedel. This in fact is what made me lament the absence of an India based think tank on Pakistan - that is why I started that thread in the hope that someone's attention would be attracted.

The US, for all its academics and think tanks is only now just beginning to catch on - but to their credit the new views on Pakistan are coming from people who are able to publish books and have hifunda interviews in various places (apart from making a few dollars from the books).

In India, outside of BRF (we are amateur outsiders who are hardly taken seriously) we have some people who are clued in about Pakistan, but a coherent response does not exist.

One rant I have been having for a long time is that a "coherent response" to Pakistan would be to educate Indians about what Pakistan is all about. That is simply not happening. And India does not have the sort of literate society that the US has who will pick up books or book reviews and read. Our level of awareness is indicated by that video of three separate eyewitnesses (including a policewoman) of an IJT crash a couple of years ago all saying the pilots jumped out.

I asked Pillai a former Home secretary (when he was in office and giving a lecture in bangalore) why the GoI did not tell Pakistan about its deeply biased anti-Hindu and anti India material in is school textbooks. He gave me a silly reply that meant nothing. Forget Pakistan doing something about it - at least Indians will learn the truth if GoI got its act together.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 13 Jul 2014 11:08

When physicians fall sick

Lament about Karachi's situation:

I sometimes worry if Karachi has not already reached a point of no return – that there is little that can be done at this stage.

One knows that Karachi still functions. But just look at how its citizens are coping with the rigours of living their lives one day after another. Karachi is a mega city, as any city that has a population of more than 10 million is classified. A city of this size and importance has to have certain attributes in the domain, for instance, of public transport, civic utilities, health, education and housing. This is what urban development is all about.

But there is something larger than these tangible assets that a city must possess to generate wealth and opportunity. It is its human resource, reflected in its intellectual and cultural environment. It is this environment that promotes creativity and innovation. A large city is a magnet for the most enterprising, imaginative and ambitious people in its hinterland. There are cities that are the repositories of the entire country’s talent and entrepreneurial spirit. Cities like New York, London and Paris have a global appeal in this respect.

For the best people in any profession, Karachi is becoming a great place to go away from. This week, I learnt about another medical expert who left in a hurry after he received a letter for ‘bhatta’ with a bullet in the envelope. Now, take this ‘bhatta’ syndrome. How would it be possible at this scale without the knowledge or connivance of parties and groups – and also the police - who are dominant in a particular locality? This could be one of my arguments in suggesting that those who are at the helm at the provincial or the city levels are themselves the problem.

In my perennial lament about Karachi, I am fond of giving two examples: commuters herded like animals on the roofs of the rickety buses and shameless cheating in public examinations year after year. These are examples from separate sectors and show how the decision-makers and the planners and the administrators have betrayed Karachi. In the process, they have undermined their own future prospects.

When I identify the ruling politicians as the main culprits in making Karachi so dysfunctional, the purpose is not to validate the induction of any kind of army rule, even when there is any constitutional sanction for it. Our past experience of army rule must disabuse us of any such misgivings. Besides, what does the army know about how a city functions in the creative disorder of its human aspirations?

But that leaves us in the cul-de-sac of how those who profess to have a democratic mandate to govern can be reformed. This crisis has national dimensions but there is this unique situation in Karachi that it is largely deprived of any ownership or affection for its well-being. It is also helplessly fragmented in terms of its social, economic and political linkages. The city, it would appear, has no soul.

Questions for knowledgeable BRF analysts:

Just how deep is Karachi's malaise? Will the fighting and killing stop if there is war with India?

Presumably, despite its problems, Karachi is still a net wealth generator for Pakistan. What needs to happen for that to stop and for it to become a completely worthless cesspit of misery, intrigue and murder?

Are there any levers at all for India to use in discreetly helping Karachi in its descent into Jahannum? Maybe through the Balochis or Afghans?

What will it take to turn Lahore into Karachi?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Jul 2014 11:26

KLNMurthy wrote:

Just how deep is Karachi's malaise? Will the fighting and killing stop if there is war with India?

Presumably, despite its problems, Karachi is still a net wealth generator for Pakistan. What needs to happen for that to stop and for it to become a completely worthless cesspit of misery, intrigue and murder?

Are there any levers at all for India to use in discreetly helping Karachi in its descent into Jahannum? Maybe through the Balochis or Afghans?

What will it take to turn Lahore into Karachi?

Here is my take:
1.Just how deep is Karachi's malaise? Will the fighting and killing stop if there is war with India?
The malaise is deep, but the killing will stop because parts of Karachi will be burning if war happens

2. Presumably, despite its problems, Karachi is still a net wealth generator for Pakistan. What needs to happen for that to stop and for it to become a completely worthless cesspit of misery, intrigue and murder?
To me the frequent statements that it is a net weath generator for "Pakistan" is similar to "islam is the fastest growing religion". Karachi is a wealth generator for a multitude of groups because it is a hub for smuggling. It probably contributes a lot more to private incomes than the public exchequer. The statement that it is reputed to contribute 25% of Pakistan's revenue, if not an outright lie, only indicates how dysfunctional the rest of the country is.

3. Are there any levers at all for India to use in discreetly helping Karachi in its descent into Jahannum? Maybe through the Balochis or Afghans?
I have no direct answer to this question. But I think Indians (smugglers, tax avoiders, exporters and their political friends) are making money out of Karachi as well and do not want things to change

4.What will it take to turn Lahore into Karachi? I just think that Lahore could be made into Beirut rather than Karachi. Sunni Islam should rule in Lahore. Karachi is "secular"

partha · Post by **partha** » 13 Jul 2014 11:31

Karachi is definitely in deep trouble. This picture was posted a few months ago in this thread which shows Taliban controlled areas of Karachi.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Jul 2014 12:51

Excerpts from Christine Fair's new book
http://www.thefridaytimes.com/tft/the-a ... -pakistan/

It was in the 1960s that the army increasingly linked itself to the ideology of Pakistan and thrust itself into the role of protecting this ideology, the cornerstones of which were Islam and a perpetual hostility to India… Pakistan Army’s adoption of a religious ideology did not, in fact, conflict with the British model. After all, the British had long made use of religion in their military training. The British emphasis on martial races compelled them to devise elaborate handbooks so that officers could identify and recruit such races, including the Punjabi Musalmans and the Sikhs. This attention to religion continued once the recruits had joined the force and resulted in the codifying of some forms of religious practice and even of appearance, such as the requirement that Sikhs keep their hair uncut and wear a turban (Gell 1996). The British also took care to enforce religious practice among its officer corps, as attested in some Pakistani officers’ biographies… Given that the British made use of religion, it should not come as a surprise that the Pakistan Army continued to do so upon independence.

<snip>

It is clear from both Ayub’s autobiography and the Foreign Affairs essay that among the key elements of his conceptualization both of the ideology of Pakistan and of Pakistani nationalism were “Pan-Islamic aspirations and fear of Hindu and Indian domination” (Haqqani 2005, 42). In Friends not Masters he argues that the cause of Pakistan’s most significant problems is India’s “inability to reconcile herself to our existence as a sovereign independent State. The Indian attitude can only be explained in pathological terms. The Indian leaders have a deep hatred for the Muslims… From the beginning, India was determined to make things difficult for us”.

Later in the same volume, Ayub, describing India’s posited hegemonic impulses, its implacable hostility to Pakistan, and the intolerance of the Hindu priestly caste, the Brahmins, contends:

India was not content with her present sphere of influence and she knew that Pakistan had the will and the capacity to frustrate her expansionist designs. She wanted to browbeat us into subservience. All we wanted was to live as equal and honourable neighbors, but to that India would never agree. It was Brahmin chauvinism and arrogance that had forced us to seek a homeland of our own where we could order our life according to our thinking and faith… There was [a] fundamental opposition between the ideologies of India and Pakistan.

Ayub’s writings evince a belief that, should Pakistan’s ideology fail, Pakistan would also fail. To ensure the success of this ideology, and thus of Pakistan, then, his government had to actively promote it and secure its legitimacy within Pakistan.
- See more at: http://www.thefridaytimes.com/tft/the-a ... i7rgU.dpuf

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 13 Jul 2014 13:42

Why Arabs Lose Wars

http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

I know that porkis have a different way of doing things, inherited from the British, but that was a long time ago.

How much has things changed right now and how much of these arab qualities now infest the porki way of doing things?

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 13 Jul 2014 13:51

>>Maybe someone should point out to the thoughtful author author that the great liberal champion of civil liberties, Jinnah ...It has persisted to this day when Qadri, who shot salman taseer was garlanded and showered with rose petals by lawyers. Maybe Bjorn Biglund should point this out? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilm-ud-din

Apparently Sven Smalgand has pointed this out (see below, with due thanks to your post), but it appears Dawn does not consider the likes of Smalgand worthy - experienced as its editors are with the bigger ones of Khyber Pakhthunkwa.
_____________________________________________
A very strange article by Noorani. As a close observer of Sooth Asian Affairs, I have noticed a strange tendency among local observers such as the writer to completely ignore the log in his Netherlands, while focusing on the twig in someone else's teeth. Consider for example, this paean to Djinnah as a "great liberal and champion of civil liberties"... (just to clarify, eating pork and drinking whiskey does not make one a liberal, just a porcine cuisine & scotch connoisseur). His bigotry was on full display when he argued in favor of Ilm-ud-din who had murdered a certain publisher Rajpal because his feelings were hurt that Rajpal's company published the book "Rangeela Rasool". Just for publishing, not writing. Djinnah spoke out in favor of Ilm-ud-din and defended him vehemently in court. This liberal hero is the one who started the tradition of defending people who murder citing blasphemy. If he was alive he would have defended Qadri, who shot Salman Taseer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilm-ud-din

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 13 Jul 2014 16:41

Once her visa is cleared, she will be back to her true self.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 13 Jul 2014 16:43

Anujan wrote:Sialkot Statistics is in fact Sialkot Spellingmistake
http://tribune.com.pk/story/734985/govt ... as-a-typo/

Incredible! Typo! Yeah right, a "Typo" becomes "Ipso Facto" based on its source. Now a few clerical heads will have to "Rollo". Even this statement "post facto" is grammatically incorrect at so many levels-

“Due to an inadvertent oversight the expected GDP growth of 4.3% was mentioned as 3.3%”

Inadvertent oversight!! I guess in pakiland there are advertent oversights too. I can't believe that anyone with an iota of sense would make this up. But then we are talking about an nation of people brought up on "incest". I guess the next logical extension of this argument would be to have IMF and world bank proof-read all paki finance ministry projections prior to releasing it for public consumption.

Apparently this was not the first time the pakis have attributed their inability to speak the truth the first time (in other words lie blatantly) to "typos". After all, in Dec. 1971 while the paki army was surrendering in droves, Dawn was still headlining how they were winning on all fronts and had the baniyas on the run.

Must have a been a typo.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 13 Jul 2014 17:26

Arun Menon wrote:Why Arabs Lose Wars

http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

How much has things changed right now and how much of these arab qualities now infest the porki way of doing things?

Although dated, this is a very useful and incisive article. It cuts to the chase. I wonder if we at BR have dissected and analyzed this officer's findings in another thread. This may be out of context, but in my opinion, rather than just overlaying paki army cultural attributes with those of their arab cousins based on this report, I wonder how much of this also applies to the Indian army. Perhaps this is better off in another thread.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 13 Jul 2014 17:45

The subcontinental middle class
By Umer Farooq April 3, 2012

Interesting read although a bit dated.

Indians had just embarked on the path of economic liberalization...he said that he dreaded the time when Pakistani middle class would envy Indian middle classes. My hindsight compels me to conclude that what the Pakistani government official said was right. The time when Pakistani middle classes will envy and copy Indian middle classes has arrived.

Difficult to say how the people in Pakistan will react to this news that Indians are now taller than they were in 1990s (or before 1990s) and how their chauvinistic feeling (that they are fed with by the overly militarized state apparatus) will be affected if this news is reproduced in Pakistani media at a large scale.

For instance, when we went to war with India, almost half a century ago, we were told (mostly through media) that Indians were shorter and thinner and therefore were unfit for fighting. This proved wrong when our army was met with six feet tall Indians in the battlefields.

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 13 Jul 2014 17:53

KLNMurthy wrote:Questions for knowledgeable BRF analysts:

Just how deep is Karachi's malaise? Will the fighting and killing stop if there is war with India?
Since Afghan jihad in 70's there has been tremendous influx of unwashed abduls settling in Karachi. They bring no employable skill set other than being daily labor. To use them wisely you need either lots of factories or lots of construction. Pakis have neither at that scale. Now Abduls produce 10 children per family so the population multiplies by geometric progression. since 1979 I presume 2 generations are already born in Karachi. Add to that the deep tribal culture they still cling on to. Example for disputes between two pakthoons they still have to go back to NWFP family villages for jirgas to solve them. All these uneducated unskilled abduls have only one way to make money. Either snatch cell phones, smuggle heroin from bad lands or kidnapping and all 3 are flourishing. I know a friend whose uncle was kidnapped few months ago. He was a banker and the initial ask was for Rs 1 Crore eventually thro mediators (included police and politicians) it was brought down to 10 lacs he was released no one in Karachi carries good cell phones in public. Most people (not army families or politician families) buy simple cars so as not to attract attentions... Know another guy whose parents moved to Karachi from Faisalabad to be with their daughter who was a banker but could not handle the life there and in couple of years moved back to home town. The infrastructure is crumbling and crime is rising with the killing of that police office who was know as encounter specialist I think the police force is under shock and it not serious about crime preventions. Karachi is run by different gangs, Mohair gangs, Pakhtun gangs, Baloch gangs and jihadis. All of them are aligned to either ISI or politicians so have some protection.

Presumably, despite its problems, Karachi is still a net wealth generator for Pakistan. What needs to happen for that to stop and for it to become a completely worthless cesspit of misery, intrigue and murder?
I think for all its ills there is TINA factor that makes Karachi going. The biggest advantage it has is that it is the only port city for 20+ odd crore people (add Afghan population whose trade is also linked to Karachi bin qasim port). Sindhi communities have been traders example the lohana and memon communities are trading communities and Karachi is their home. What needs to happen is that gangs need to lower their bar on who to kidnap as they keep going down the food chain and start kidnapping small business owners, medium management employed people the cost of operating business goes up and slowly the business become uncompetitive.

Are there any levers at all for India to use in discreetly helping Karachi in its descent into Jahannum? Maybe through the Balochis or Afghans?
Frankly there is no need for it. Between breeding abduls and amoeba Karachi is already going to Jahannum and needs very little help from anyone. Last I heard it was 2 crore population and more moving every day. The transportation is the worst for any metropolis and non existent development.

What will it take to turn Lahore into Karachi?
Lahore is different breed. It isn't as welcoming to abduls from Balochistan and Pakhtunistan as Karachi is. I think Sindhis were too tolerant for too long and now the chain reaction is beyond control for them. Lahore has been kept in check my pakjabis.

My take on some of these questions in blue

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 13 Jul 2014 18:07

shiv wrote:
hans ke liye Pakistan. Lar ke lenge Hindustan
roughly translatable as:
We laughed while we got Pakistan. We will fight and get India

More like

We laughed and took pakistan, we will fight and take India

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 13 Jul 2014 18:17

Sir Zaid (pbuh) Hamid's next Amar Singh moment

Apparently anjem chaudhry and ISIS are a jehudi/hanudi/amriki kanspiracy to malign and divide malsic civilization! Also claims that baki fizzleyeens flew turki F-16 against the yehudis three years ago.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 13 Jul 2014 18:53

Stemming outbreaks: Eighth patient dies of Congo hemorrhagic fever at HMC
http://tribune.com.pk/story/734275/stem ... er-at-hmc/

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 13 Jul 2014 20:34

Pakistani Authors Find a Market in India

Indian publishing houses are giving young Pakistani writers a much-needed outlet for their work.

But what sells? What kinds of stories are Indian publishers looking for these days? “With Pakistan, I think globally it is the same stereotype that sells or the exact opposite of which, in its own way, reinforces the stereotype by presenting a complex society into simplistic duality,” observes the young author, “It is terrorism, Islamization…topics like these that reinforce the biases of the Indian audience, and that sells. A book doesn’t need to tackle these issues head-on to generate interest. It could also talk about certain topics with these things in the background. You can notice [this] in Bilal Tanweer’s The Scatter Here Is Too Great and also in Saba Imtiaz’s Karachi, You’re Killing Me!“

Shazaf Fatima Haider, another young Pakistani author whose debut novel, How It Happened was published by Penguin India in 2013, states that currently, Pakistani writers now have insight into the mechanics of book publishing.

Like Khalid, Haider feels that “tales of suffering and oppression seem to have more of a market abroad.”

“International readers want to know what it’s like being a Pakistani – how much prejudice, danger does one face as a minority, as a woman, as a citizen of a metropolis that has been the subject of many a bomb attack,” she states, “Stories in those sensational contexts do tend to find an eager market. Oh, and put a woman with a veil on the cover – that’s key to selling a book.”

KJo · Post by **KJo** » 13 Jul 2014 20:45

chetak wrote:
More like

We laughed and took pakistan, we will fight and take India

I thought it was the other way around.

Lar ke liya Pakistan, Hans ke lenge Hindustan.

Which means that the skinny weak short Hindooooos are pushovers and we strong fair tall and tight @$$ed pure Pakistanis will laugh as we take over Hindoooostan.

RCase · Post by **RCase** » 13 Jul 2014 21:14

Watch from about 36:25 min to 38:30 for the true qadrifying experience of Karachi for the average Paki!

Pakis visiting from abroad are scared from the moment the get out of the airport. If that be the case, the Pakis living in Karachi sure will be paranoid every moment.

kish · Post by **kish** » 13 Jul 2014 21:22

Take that joo yindoos. bakistan is "planning" to take on Indian pharma companies in Nigeria.

IANS is one of the most anti-India news agency & it has been quoted by another anti-India news portal "twocircles" run by "peaceful people".

[url=httpxxx://twocircles.net/2014jul13/indian_pharma_firms_face_competition_pakistan_nigeria.html#.U8KZsaOHJM4]Indian pharma firms face competition from Pakistan in Nigeria[/url]

Submitted by IANS on 13 July 2014 - 2:29pm

By Francis Kokutse,

Accra : As Indian pharmaceutical companies prepare to increase the volume of their trade in Nigeria, it is becoming clear that they would have to compete companies from their closest neighbour, Pakistan, which have given the signal that they are keen to take a slice of Nigeria's growing market in the health sector as well as pharmaceutical products.

The Pakistani companies plan to achieve this by establishing hospitals and partnering with Nigerians to establish pharmaceutical companies, Pakistan's High Commissioner to Nigeria, Muhammed Saleem, has said.

"We are also looking at having joint ventures in opening up hospitals. We are not looking at Nigeria as a market, we are looking at Nigeria as a partner and that is our intention in this part of the world", Saleem said.

As part of the move, the Nigeria-Pakistan Pharma Investment Forum (NIPIF 2014) was held in the Nigerian commercial capital, Lagos, last month.

About 50 investors from Pakistan attended the forum together with two each from Jordan, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and Ghana. This shows how serious Pakistani companies are in their bid to make an inroad into Nigeria.

Saleem said Pakistan, currently exporting $200 million of pharmaceutical products, was planning to increase that to $500 million. Out of the $200 million, trade with Nigeria accounts for only $7 million.(most likely sialkot statistis)

He said his country wanted to produce quality drugs and medicines in Nigeria which would be made available to hospitals locally.

(Francis Kokutse can be contacted at fkokutse@gmail.com)

sadhana · Post by **sadhana** » 13 Jul 2014 21:42

Thanks, shiv.
The religious parties of Pakistan may have the most roots in the common people among all parties, but their need to find solutions within religion has a silo effect on their mindsets. They refuse to relate to anything or anyone outside of their religious agendas. The ethnic political parties too are more cadre-based but are similarly limited by their ethnic basis.
These parties have also been severely handicapped by their members either being targeted or being co-opted by the military and elite.

And now no one can really ascend to power in Pakistan without having jihadi militias being involved in their organizational and muscle work. The Pak Army is taking care of that.

arun · Post by **arun** » 13 Jul 2014 21:53

kish wrote:Take that joo yindoos. bakistan is "planning" to take on Indian pharma companies in Nigeria.

IANS is one of the most anti-India news agency & it has been quoted by another anti-India news portal "twocircles" run by "peaceful people".

[url=httpxxx://twocircles.net/2014jul13/indian_pharma_firms_face_competition_pakistan_nigeria.html#.U8KZsaOHJM4]Indian pharma firms face competition from Pakistan in Nigeria[/url]

Submitted by IANS on 13 July 2014 - 2:29pm

By Francis Kokutse,

Accra : As Indian pharmaceutical companies prepare to increase the volume of their trade in Nigeria, it is becoming clear that they would have to compete companies from their closest neighbour, Pakistan, which have given the signal that they are keen to take a slice of Nigeria's growing market in the health sector as well as pharmaceutical products.

The Pakistani companies plan to achieve this by establishing hospitals and partnering with Nigerians to establish pharmaceutical companies, Pakistan's High Commissioner to Nigeria, Muhammed Saleem, has said.

"We are also looking at having joint ventures in opening up hospitals. We are not looking at Nigeria as a market, we are looking at Nigeria as a partner and that is our intention in this part of the world", Saleem said.

As part of the move, the Nigeria-Pakistan Pharma Investment Forum (NIPIF 2014) was held in the Nigerian commercial capital, Lagos, last month.

About 50 investors from Pakistan attended the forum together with two each from Jordan, the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and Ghana. This shows how serious Pakistani companies are in their bid to make an inroad into Nigeria.

Saleem said Pakistan, currently exporting $200 million of pharmaceutical products, was planning to increase that to $500 million. Out of the $200 million, trade with Nigeria accounts for only $7 million.(most likely sialkot statistis)

He said his country wanted to produce quality drugs and medicines in Nigeria which would be made available to hospitals locally.

(Francis Kokutse can be contacted at fkokutse@gmail.com)

Sialkot Statistics or Madrassah Maths aside, very poor editorial control by IANS. The Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s exports of pharmaceuticals to Nigeria of USD 7 Million is a pathetically puny fraction of India’s USD 307 Million exports of pharmaceuticals to Nigeria last year(Indian Pharma Exports to Nigeria Hit $307m Annually).

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 13 Jul 2014 23:30

Is it an Aeorplane? Is it a Bus? It is Pakistan’s Latest Ultra Modern Air Cooled Metro Transportation!

Cheers

Peregrine · Post by **Peregrine** » 14 Jul 2014 00:07

Ban on Indian mango exports to EU is a unique opportunity for Pakistani exporters

Pakistani mango growers slice in to India market

Mango exports: Pounce while India is still out, says expert

Finally :

Mango crisis: Pakistan unclear over export strategy

ISLAMABAD: Harvest Tradings Director Ahmad Jawad has said expats living in the US might once again wonder whether they will be able to buy Pakistani mangoes from their local grocery stores.

“Pakistan has been working for a long time to tap into the American market with its high quality mangoes. The conditions and requirements set for Pakistani mango exports to the US have made it a costly matter.”

Although Pakistan has its own irradiation plant in Lahore – M/s Paras Foods – under a joint venture of Pakistan Horticulture Development and Export Company (PHDEC), but it has not been approved by the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) yet.

However, Islamabad and Washington agreed that irradiation was the best treatment. To facilitate this, the USDA created a first of its kind system to allow safe import and irradiation of Pakistani mangoes in the US, but this option is economically not viable for Pakistani exporters.
Cheers

Rana · Post by **Rana** » 14 Jul 2014 02:19

anupmisra wrote: I don't think you meant to say that.

Most Hindus converted out of fear for their lives. They chose to live rather than die. ... Many others converted due to financial reasons (bribes, taxes, levies...).

Imagine signing up for a credit card which promised you jobs, contracts and money in a recession, but which you could not close your account from (for which you could be killed) and could not carry another card, and your descendents would also have to sign up for automatically. A marketing manager's dream...no attrition, generations of customers, top of wallet always...and the beauty of arab colonialization. Nobody even calls it that. McCauley's children are derided, but not Aurangazeb's.

Ironically, the descendents are finding that the "card" is at times the kiss of death on resumes in the US. No jobs, contracts or money anymore, the revenge of history.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Jul 2014 06:04

Shiv, Ian Talbott, the Oxford don, quotes Sikander Hayat Khan stating that the British will be forced to accede to creation of Pakistan as the sword of BIA was the Pakjabi contingent.

BTW, Yash Chopra parodies the Hayat Khan family in Veer Zara to a lot of TSP/RAPE takleef.

So its not in 1960 that PAA found the idea of Pakistan but in 1947.

Khuda fece!!!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 Jul 2014 06:41

KJoishy wrote:
I thought it was the other way around.

Lar ke liya Pakistan, Hans ke lenge Hindustan.

No
http://www.outlookindia.com/article/Hin ... tan/212897

' After the announcement of the Partition and the acceptance speeches of the leaders on 3 June 1947, some enthusiastic slogan-maker of the Muslim League had come up with a hot one:

hans ke liya hai Pakistan
lar ke lenge Hindustan.)