Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

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shiv
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

viv wrote:What are these Indian ethos that need to be infused into the democractic process?
By requiring our elected leaders to remember the values of dharma
1. Truthfulness
2. Lack of greed and desire for excess
3. Doing one's duty
4. Keeping family and nation ahead of self
5. Compassion for the poor and weak
6. Encouraging education and respect for knowledge and teachers
7. Maintaining harmony in society and the world

If these are not universal values, or universally applicable values, someone please remove my ignorance.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Pulikeshi »

shiv wrote: I am looking for a straight, no beating about the bush, no buggering about answer. I believe I made one such post. Pulikeshi has made one above although he stops short of saying "Dharma is defined as:"
I've seen the short comings in my argument as well as those made by others over the years on BRF... on the same token, I've seen strengths as well in what has been articulated, albeit by a few.

I have no hesitation to say Dharma was defined as I have it above from the texts. These declarative statements in SD are typically made, not as many suspect despite conventions in practice, but because of exemplary empirical evidence that had shown their benefit in practice. Conventions have a bad habit of lagging the situation on the ground. This is exactly the reason why declarative amendments are required. This is an entirely opposite process to the West and Middle-Eastern Religions in that their declarations were to drive conventions in society and every denomination that arose from them are really conventions, with no means to amend the original declaration.

Quick example with some humor - the topic of adultery was treated variously in the Dharmasutra. Originally, the husband committing the act was held accountable, whereas the women especially if she was married to another was not held accountable. Yagnavalkya Smrithi (II 285) took a different take and made adultery punishable for both man and a woman, but it made the punishment of the woman half that of the man. Now Section 497 I.P.C however specifically stated that a woman shall not be punishable agreeing with the more original law books, but this was incongruous with Yagnavalkya, even worse holy seculars saw this violated Article 14 of the Constitution. The Supreme Court has held that sec 497 I.P.C was not violative of Article 14 on the grounds that sex formed a valid basis for classification as also on the ground that Act 15(3) enabled the State to make special provisions in favor of women. Now the Law Commission in a report took a dim view on all this and recommended equal punishment by a majority opinion - I have not looked at all this more recently since I came across this amusing mess several years ago. Today the law may gloriously punish both the man and the woman with five year imprisonment, fines or both... but it can be challenged again and again on the grounds of its establishment - the adulterous woman is bullet proof :mrgreen:

This amusing example establishes the confusion of conventions based society that periodically declares its values, when mis-interpreted by a declarative rights based framework results in a colossal mess, but adultery is emancipation Indian women, a simple way to stick it to the man, literally! :-) Ironically, people do not know or live by 497 I.P.C, but even worse they have not the resource to understand its origins in Smrithi, in this the seculars have digested SD without knowing what they are doing... and point this out is mumbo, jumbo. All this and other arguments have been slowly but surely been pushing me to the conclusion that I do not know what Dharma is for this current age and most of the people that I know either don't care or do not know either. Even if I or any others make declarative claims, they have to be necessarily based on exemplary conventions validated as beneficial on the ground. However, I am at a loss to decipher these conventions in our current age. I fear Indian society is fractured beyond repair and is heading towards the individual rights based model without knowing what is right!

Those asking for a relook at the constitution and rights based approach etc. are themselves stuck in the quagmire of having grown up in a rights based declarative educational model. While I have been harsh in my criticism of these behaviors, I am well aware of my own shortcomings and inability to clearly identify and articulate what Dharma is for our current times. Those looking at making Dharma as something simple and personal are quite missing the point I am making, either in complete awareness or in complete ignorance. Just as the followers of SD have regressed into only keeping their kitchen and home shrine pure, their values have been reduced to their person and body.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by johneeG »

johneeG wrote: Coming to the natural state of things:I don't know what is the meaning of 'natural', but I would use the word 'harmonious'. Those attitudes and actions which are harmonious are to be encouraged. What is harmonious?
Giving happiness to most of the people most of the time.

So, harmonious can be called as 'Dharma'.

Para-upkaraya punyaya papaya para-peedanam
Helping others is Dharma and harming others is Adharma.

Of course, it requires people to rise above Kama, Krodha, Lobha, Moha, Madha, and Mathsarya. It requires people to give up bad habits. It requires most people to follow proper Dharma. It requires the elites to follow Dharma.

Broadly, the general Dharma for all:
In Hinduism, there are 2 types of Dharma:
a) Samanya Dharma (General)
b) Vishesha Dharma (Special) (Contextual)

Samanya Dharma(General):
It seems, according to Manu:
ahimsa satyam asteyam shaucham indriyanigrahametam
samasikam dharmam chaaturvarnye abhravin manuh

Ahimsa(Non-violence), Satyam(Truth), Asteyam(Non-Stealing), Shaucham(Cleanliness) and Indriya-nigraham(Control of senses) are the Dharma of all the 4 varnas.


The general Dharma applicable to all are:
Ahimsa(Non-violence),
Satyam(Truth),
Asteyam(Non-Stealing),
Shaucham(Cleanliness) and
Indriya-nigraham(Control of senses)

The priority is also clear. Ahimsa(Non-Violence) has the highest priority(over and above Satya/Truth also).
Ahimsa Paramo Dharmah.
Ahimsa is the highest Dharma.
So, when there is a conflict between Ahimsa(Non-Violence) and Satya(Truth), then Ahimsa get higher priority.

These 5 are the general rules for all.Then, there are special rules. The special rules are based on the time, place, circumstance and subject. It varies from person to person, from gender to gender, from place to place and time to time.

The Special rules have higher priority than the General rules. So, a soldier, whose special duty is to kill, is exempted from the general rule of Ahimsa.

Killing oneself(suicide) is considered highest himsa(violence). Suicide is a bigger offense than the Murder. The punishments given for the same crime are not equal. The one with higher privileges gets higher punishment for the same crime.

So, Hindhuism is neither strictly contextual nor totally ignorant of context. The problem that other systems generally suffer is when they are either totally contextual or totally devoid of context. Hindhuism has more elegant solution to this by dividing the Dharma into two parts one that is based on context and one that is absolute.

So, there are two sets of values: universal harmonious values and contextual harmonious values.

Universal harmonious values which should be followed by everyone are:
Ahimsa(Non-violence),
Satyam(Truth),
Asteyam(Non-Stealing),
Shaucham(Cleanliness) and
Indriya-nigraham(Control of senses)

The contextual harmonious values are defined based on time, place, circumstance and object. However, one most important point is that in Hindhu system, Contextual harmonious values i.e. Vishesha Dharma gets higher priority than the Samanaya Dharma(Universal harmonious values). 

If we are to equate the Universal harmonious values(Samanaya Dharma) with human rights and the Vishesha Dharma(contextual harmonious values) are equated to national laws, then according to the Hindhu system national/local laws have higher priority than human rights. Because the national/local laws are framed based on the unique situation of that particular national/locality.

Of course, it understood in Hindhuism that in the long run, all national laws/local laws must be in accordance with the universal harmonious values(Samanya Dharma).
Ahimsa(Non-violence),
Satyam(Truth),
Asteyam(Non-Stealing),
Shaucham(Cleanliness) and
Indriya-nigraham(Control of senses)
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shiv
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

ramana wrote:
In 1748, Montesquieu said" Liberty is the freedom to do what the laws allow,..."
When I think about it, this example is a fantastic illustration of western views on freedom, liberty and rights. (Credit to Balu via A_Gupta for opening my eyes)

From the above quote by the unpronounceable Montesquieu, liberty is a cage that allows freedom within the cage built by laws.

When western societies (originally European) were ruled by the church, all laws were laws laid down by the church. So liberty was freedom within the cage of Christian laws. This framework had two major flaws. One was that it could not accommodate different factions within Christianity, and later, as colonization progressed, this framework could be broken by someone who claimed that he was not Christian and therefore not bound by Christian laws.

The solution was "secularism" where God was removed, but the laws retained - so the laws became "Universal". The idea was that all those former Church laws were fine but were applicable to everyone because the Church and Christianity were removed from the rank of lawmaker. These are the "Universal laws" that have moved on to become "western universalism". The only modification as far as India is concerned was to declare a set of practices as "Hindu practices" - some of which were banned and others allowed - so that Hindu too could say "We have religion". Liberty is now a cage within which people have the freedom to do what the secular (formerly Christian) law allows.

One could ask, "What is bad about Universal laws (formerly Christian laws)? After all if they are for the good of all people there is no need for anyone to oppose them or complain about them? I believe there are hundreds, if not thousands of examples where these secular laws, originally established by the Church, are in conflict with the liberties and freedoms of Indian society.

You have the right to own property today? But what about laws that allow you to renounce everything? For that, by law, you have to be declared legally dead. You will have to make a will and leave your worldly possessions to someone else for that. If you take up a vow of renunciation and become a mendicant, what laws allow you to beg? Begging is bad isn't it. If begging is bad, renunciation is bad and material possessions are necessary and good. Is there no right to be voluntarily homeless with NFA (No Fixed Address).

What if a person who has renounced everything changes his mind. For example an old man who has renounced everything finds that his son and daughter have died in an accident leaving behind two small children? By our legal system this man is dead and has no identity as a living person. What legal basis will he have for becoming guardian of the children he has renounced?

What laws allow you the right to remain naked as a sadhu, covered only in ash? Can you be a sadhu and walk into a club - say to give a talk?

You have a right to life, but where is the right to die? What about the right to give up one's life and die in meditation and by starvation after one has completed one's life's duties? Is there a right to allow a malformed child with one head, one heart and two bodies to die in peace rather than sentencing one body to death by surgery and possibly losing the other one as well? Whose morality gives one a right to life? Whose morality gives one a right to die? Which educated Hindu has actually looked at such things critically?

If I spend time on this I am sure I can come across many more examples where the liberties allowed by Indian tradition are restricted by Universal laws arising out of Christian tradition.

Gradually, we are wiping out the old India and we are adopting western ways and western method of dealing with the world starting with declaration of dharma as religion. Maybe that is good, maybe it is bad but it is a loss. We are a headless nation where "Hindutva" itself maybe a brain fart in which no one knows what being Hindu might be if Hinduism is not a religion. Universalism has successfully converted Hindu identity into "I am a Hindu because I am a follower of the Hindu religion". No one is a follower of Hindu dharma because when anyone asks "what is dharma" we can only say "duuuuh!". But we got a lot of answers for "Hindu religion" where we do not say or do or worship things that Christians or Muslims do.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Pulikeshi »

^^^good post, couple of points:

1. Your intuition on anti-patterns as a method to interrogate universal claims is on solid ground. This has indeed come up informally by Indian writers, but you are correct in that no SD thinker has questioned this comprehensively.

2. Montesquieu's quote in itself is the idea that - If you have the liberty to act outside of law, then so do I and any others. Therefore no one has liberty...

3. That said, our judgement of this as a cage, is also because in as much as we are stuck in, and are comfortable with the perch based on conventions, we have the luxury to judge Montesquieu's argument as declarative and limiting.. but that is my view. As I find similar thought in the Smrithi, but this does not take away from the other points you make on the cage.

4. Your final point on "I am a Hindu because I am a follower of the Hindu religion" is quite right... Unfortunately, Sanathana Dharma will neither remain Sanathana, nor will it be Dharma without active argumentation, declaration of best conventions to be adopted and its subsequent defense.

5. I will keep repeating this point - none of the schools of SD - philosophical thought, scientific thought, mathematical thought, social thought, none but none are complete. They are all works in progress based on conventions, once in a while one or another author declares a few ideas always carefully saying, scholar x says this and scholar y say this, but here is what I expound...

For current generation the challenge is how to understand these conventions while understanding the following -
Dharma remains Sanathana because it is neither perfect nor complete, it is a journey quest... with some mile markers.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Vayutuvan »

shiv wrote:
matrimc wrote: Is it different from "dharmO rakshati rakshitA:"?
What would that mean in English? You have to decide if freedom is different from dharma.
Can you define dharma?
Can you define freedom?
PS Just noticed that Pulikeshi has put up a list. I can see nothing in that list that equates with the sense in which "freedom" is used.
Shiv ji:

No I cannot define dharma because it is a free variable in a meta rule. My understanding is (loosely speaking) is that sanatana dharma is similar to but brooder than what has been termed Logical Positivism and has been discredited because of non-expressiveness of the English in particular and Germanic languages in general.

Let us say ancients over several millennia of churning the ocean of knowledge and experience have come up with a meta rule which goes something like the following (A stands for "forall" and E stands for "exists" though in logical formalism they are represented as upside down A and mirror image of E whose tines point leftward but in ASCII A and E are the usual notation as long as one follows the convention of not using these two symbols for anything else - neither literals nor variables but part of the alphabet, or equivalently one can assign a "reserved" or "distinguished" status to these two alphabet)

A x: If x is defended, x defends.
or
A x: if x is protected, x protects.


Since x is not defined x is called a free variable (i.e. x is not bound to any particular abstract or concrete "thing")

If one takes the above as template, then concrete rules can be generated.

Example 1: Substitute gOw for x, produces the concrete rule: if cow is protected, cow protects. Which is a true from empirical observation. Ancients would have seen situations that during years of plenty they butchered the cows then during lean times they had nothing to fall back. So the protect your cows from raiders.

Example 2: x <- Leader(s). if Leader(s) is(are) protected, he/she/they will protect.

Example 2a: X <- yagnya

Example 3: A smart gal came up to the guru(s) and said "I protected a cow thief. Instead of protecting me (and my property) he in fact stole my herd. Stop making these stupid rules." and modified the rule to constrain x to a set of objects which will yield only statements that are empirically observed to true.

(as an aside, Tautology is hereditary but a contradiction is not. In other words, every tautology whether it is ground (A true observation, axiom that is assumed to be true) or derived to be true from ground remains a tautology for aall time to come. This hereditary property is what is used by Godel to prove his two incompleteness theorems of Arithmetic based on Peano's axioms.

A few centuries passed and another person came up with the idea binding x with a set instead of only singleton objects.
So instead of listing each of the rks, he compiled them together into a book called rkveda and said
x <- rkveda where rkveda = {rks}.

x <- { rks in rk veda, yajur veda, sama veda, atharvana veda } and so on.

Climbing the ladder of this abstraction one eventually ends up with the definition for dharma which is "protecting dharma in turns protects you"

Why was Cong(I) routed in recent elections? They were unable to see beyond the immedaite vote bank politics and did not protect sanatana dharma so sanatana dharma did not protect them. IOW, they subverted secularism and secularism kicked them out.

(PS: I see Shiv posted something about xtianity. Simplistically speaking the schism between Roman Catholics and Church of England was because Pope did not follow his dharma of protecting the King of England's right to annul his marriage).
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_20317 »

matrimc ji,

could you run the following minor changes in your logic. Minor because for all practical purposes the change in logic will not change the output significantly (chicken>egg>chicken>egg....). Nonetheless a reasonable introduction because that is how people actually speak/think.

Interchange:
A x: If x A is defended, x A defends.
or
A x: if x A is protected, x A protects.


x being a free variable does not have any preferences and may actually at times protect/defend despite being or not being protected/defended in return.

Further:
the gOw, the girl and the thief are all parts of A and not that of x. A in turn is part and parcel of x.

hence gOw may actually not give any milk even if well fed during lean seasons. The immoral thief may actually protect the gOw esp. if its giving milk and so long as the thief has custody of the gOw and the girl while having all the organs and physical properties to remain alive may actually be dead in the lean season simply because x has decided to play truant from her body despite her actually having been compassionate towards the thief & the gOw.

Thus A (collective of gOw, girl & thief) will protect/defend if protected/defended in return subject only to the will of the free variable x.



Added Later :

Think of it like this. What would the girl in obviously difficult situation ask:

I had helped the thief and he robbed me! Hey Bhagwan aisa mere saath hi kyun ? :cry:

or

I had helped the thief and he robbed me. What are the rules of engagement that put me in such a compromised position ? :idea:
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Pulikeshi wrote: no SD thinker has questioned this comprehensively.
Another thought occurred to me today, walking to the local market for Ganesh chaturthi shopping. There will be homongous piles of garbage to be cleared after the festival - I will come to that later.

I referred to the right to be a sanyasi or a wandering mendicant, musician or beggar even. These are things that have defined India's character, and even if I were to shake my head with regret and claim that modernity is taking all these things away - a few things have to be kept in mind. Change is not just inevitable - it has already happened and our thinking needs to change. We need to be innovative and fresh if we are going to complain about modernization and western universalism

For example, if we allow sanyasis, sadhus and mendicants to wander about without identity, they are still alive and will need toilet facilities and places to bathe. Bathing in ponds and rivers is out. That means that we must either declare this wandering about as illegal, or make it illegal for them to defecate or urinate wherever they want. But first we must build vast numbers of public toilets. In India we don't think about these things. We make bicycle lanes for "eco friendly" people with high incomes. The difference between the west and India is not that the former are imposing their universalism on us but we don't know what effect we have on our surroundings and what we should be doing to change ourselves. The west has ready made solutions. Make sanyasis and mendicants illegal. Put homeless in homes keep people off the streets. Count, document and identify everyone. For this we will howl and say "westernization is killing our culture". But Indians are not coming up with Indian solutions

Bangalore has an area of 1200 sq km (assume 30x40 km) and a population of 9 million. Garbage from central Bangalore has to move at least 30 km to get anywhere outside Bangalore. 2 million households will generate about 5000 tons of fresh vegetable garbage over Ganesh chaturthi over the next 2 days. That is at least 2500 lorry loads over and above the normal garbage load. Over the next 2 days. Ganesh pooja is all about anointing Ganesha with dozens of varieties of flowers and leaves. Would it be "western universalism" or "Christian secularism" to ask people to use fewer flowers and leaves for their poojas? I can write this on BRF but anyone who writes this sort of stuff will be accused of being anti-Hindu. This definitely gives the feeling that being Hindu is to be completely without community sense.

Even on BRF on earlier years, the news that pollution levels rise sharply during Diwali is greeted by the accusation that "anti-Hindu forces" are raising such fears. I bet it will happen again later this year. We can, as Hindus reduce our own pollution. But we will pollute first as part of a Hindu right, and then we lament western solutions to western ills.

Hindus in India are deeply ill and barely aware of the problems that they can themselves solve. Western universalism scores over us because we refuse to acknowledge that Hindus too can do some harm to the environment
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_23692 »

shiv wrote:
Pulikeshi wrote: no SD thinker has questioned this comprehensively.
Another thought occurred to me today, walking to the local market for Ganesh chaturthi shopping. There will be homongous piles of garbage to be cleared after the festival - I will come to that later.

I referred to the right to be a sanyasi or a wandering mendicant, musician or beggar even. These are things that have defined India's character, and even if I were to shake my head with regret and claim that modernity is taking all these things away - a few things have to be kept in mind. Change is not just inevitable - it has already happened and our thinking needs to change. We need to be innovative and fresh if we are going to complain about modernization and western universalism

For example, if we allow sanyasis, sadhus and mendicants to wander about without identity, they are still alive and will need toilet facilities and places to bathe. Bathing in ponds and rivers is out. That means that we must either declare this wandering about as illegal, or make it illegal for them to defecate or urinate wherever they want. But first we must build vast numbers of public toilets. In India we don't think about these things. We make bicycle lanes for "eco friendly" people with high incomes. The difference between the west and India is not that the former are imposing their universalism on us but we don't know what effect we have on our surroundings and what we should be doing to change ourselves. The west has ready made solutions. Make sanyasis and mendicants illegal. Put homeless in homes keep people off the streets. Count, document and identify everyone. For this we will howl and say "westernization is killing our culture". But Indians are not coming up with Indian solutions

Bangalore has an area of 1200 sq km (assume 30x40 km) and a population of 9 million. Garbage from central Bangalore has to move at least 30 km to get anywhere outside Bangalore. 2 million households will generate about 5000 tons of fresh vegetable garbage over Ganesh chaturthi over the next 2 days. That is at least 2500 lorry loads over and above the normal garbage load. Over the next 2 days. Ganesh pooja is all about anointing Ganesha with dozens of varieties of flowers and leaves. Would it be "western universalism" or "Christian secularism" to ask people to use fewer flowers and leaves for their poojas? I can write this on BRF but anyone who writes this sort of stuff will be accused of being anti-Hindu. This definitely gives the feeling that being Hindu is to be completely without community sense.

Even on BRF on earlier years, the news that pollution levels rise sharply during Diwali is greeted by the accusation that "anti-Hindu forces" are raising such fears. I bet it will happen again later this year. We can, as Hindus reduce our own pollution. But we will pollute first as part of a Hindu right, and then we lament western solutions to western ills.

Hindus in India are deeply ill and barely aware of the problems that they can themselves solve. Western universalism scores over us because we refuse to acknowledge that Hindus too can do some harm to the environment

Very insightful. You put your finger on the problem. Let us be very clear on certain things.

1. First of all, not everyone who wears saffron or who is a nomad is automatically a holy man. That does not even make him a Fakir.

2. A real holy man will never allow himself be a part of any problem. A real holy man is at least enlightened enough to know that at the very least, he needs to do no harm. A real holy man also knows not to dirty things. A real holy man is obsessed with cleanliness and does not differentiate between not dirtying public spaces and keeping himself clean.

3. Our Indic culture already had a solution for it, thousands of years ago, and we still have the solution. Bathing and defecating were not the only problems that ascetics and holy men faced or face. They faced an even bigger problem. Food. Eating. Keeping themselves adequately nourished and keeping themselves clothed (for the most part, the naga sadhus found a solution to the problem of staying poor and being clothed, which was that they stayed naked, a brilliant and uniquely Indian solution, and no one minded that, in fact our culture respected that and them). Our culture's solution to enable holy men freedom to travel and seek was that the rest of us gave them alms and fed them.

4. A Purely indic solution to holy men defacation, bathing and waste disposal, which is still workable and still practical, is that just like the rest of us, still feed them, the rest of us can provide our home bathrooms to them and provide our home trash cans to them. The holy men were known not to accept certain kind of food, if they considered it unclean, so they can also decline bathing in and disposing their waste in those of our homes, who will in turn throw that trash in public areas, rather than properly dispose them off.

5. The solution is there, it is uniquely Indic, dharmic and ingenius, practical and very doable and best of all does not cost get the government involved and does not cost any one anything, except for each of us, some water, some very small sewage fee and some very small cost of disposal of the holy men's waste. Each of us, even the poor, can afford that marginal additional cost. SO, WHY DONT WE DO IT ? Because, as a cultural value, we do not consider public cleanliness important enough. Everyone will think me crazy, if I said that one can live without eating. But no one will consider me crazy in India, if I said that one can live with dirtying our public spaces. In fact, the other way around. I bet you, more than half the people will consider me crazy if I start saying that we should keep our public spaces clean. "Dont lecture us", people will tell me with a great deal of hostility. "Western stooge", someone on BRF will call me ((whisper) some may even call me a Western Universalist....but shhhhhhhhhhh, I didnt say it). Seriously, though, the point is, that no one considers it important therefore, even a costless solution, totally rooted in our culture does not get implemented.

6. Of course, we Indians are smart enough to only allow real holy men the use of our facilities, not fake godmen. And no, it is also not a question of someone being a stranger. We Indians, still, help strangers all the time and have a unique sixth sense to know which stranger to trust and which to not trust. I can bet you, that if we as a people just consider keeping our public spaces clean important enough, no real holy men will be short of a bathroom or a waste disposal facility, without the government or the community having to build any bathrooms, not even one.

7. Now the same, I believe goes for the normal people, at least in cities and even small towns. Villages, I can understand, there may not still be enough facilities to go around. But in cities and towns, I truly believe that if a person is just willing to take a tiny bit of trouble, he can, in today's India, still find a public bathroom or can find a private place at a very small charge to take care of his bodily functions and cleanliness. Of course, it wont be so convenient that he can just take two steps or move right across the street from him and do it in open, but a little bit of trouble or paying a small charge will take care of this problem, if there is a will. The problem is that there is no one there to tell people, that defacting in the open is bad or beneath a person's own dignity. When is the last time, you heard anyone going out and telling our people that ? Is it taught in schools ? Do "social activists" and NGOs, even "Western NGOs" tell people that? It was only Modi who in a first of any person of authority in India in the past 65 years, who said it recently in an address to the nation. Certainly the rest of the government does not tell the people that or at least has not so far. All these institutions, whether they be the government or NGOs or Social Activists, will instead be the first to come out on the streets, teaching people their RIGHTS. "People have a right to build on any vacant piece of public land they can find", they would say with self righteous indignation (as long as you dont occupy the vacant public land outside my house, that is). "People have a right to free housing, free land, free food, free everything", they would proclaim. But no one will tell them that the free land, the free housing, the free food they get, they also have the responsibility to keep their own public areas clean. No, no one will say that. So, when something is not considered important in a culture, it is called, "not a cultural value". Public space cleanliness, in today's India, is not an Indian cultural value. If it were to merely become a value, we have a low cost or practically a no cost solution with an Indic ethos already.

8. Same thing goes for most of our problems that we face. If we were to just make it a cultural value, we already have ingenius, low cost and almost perfect solutions with no environmental side effects to most of our problems. Just to illustrate that cleanliness is not the only issue which is not a cultural value, but has a very elegant Indic solution, let me point out another problem. If service to our fellow man or service to humanity becomes our cultural value, we will practically alleviate the medical care problem in our country. We dont need a Western solution. We indics have a great tradition of informal social contracts. As long as a doctor believes that a patient is not taking advantage of him, an Indian doctor, even in today's India (yeah, yeah, I know all about horror stories of unnecessary surgeries and tests and medication), but still, even in today's India, most doctors will not turn back a patient, even in the middle of the night. The reason, that the doctors have become greedy and Westernized right now is because they see the rest of the society becoming greedy and they dont trust their patient to not take advantage of them. So, if we have a system, where a patient voluntarily pays the doctor whatever they can and develop that trust in the doctor, I believe we can go a long way in solving our medical care problem. By the way, here again, we are leveraging a uniquely Indian asset, that no one else has. The ability to have that human connection between two human beings and develop that level of trust. In the West, with all the higher standards of behavior in general, it will never be the case that two individuals will be able to develop the level and kind of trust that we indics, at our best, are capable of.

9. Lastly, going back to the cleanliness problem. No, I dont believe that it is caused in any major way, in India, because we dont have public toilets. No, I dont believe that in India, the problem of public space filth is caused because we dont have enough trash bins in public spaces or that we have not come up with an alternative to the "harijan" system. No. The problem of sanitation in India is simply because all our institutions of authority have stopped talking about duty of each individual, about the dharma of each individual. Cleanliness is not a cultural value. RIGHTS are a cultural value. Getting something for nothing based on the numerical superiority of one group or caste of people over others, is a cultural value. Cleanliness is not a duty, not a dharma, not a cultural value. If somehow, it were to become a cultural value and each individual's dharma, and each individual understands it, either through cultural osmosis or through education, we already have the problem licked. No need for massive Western style solutions of building massive public toilets or massive landfills.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

rsangram wrote: 9. Lastly, going back to the cleanliness problem. No, I dont believe that it is caused in any major way, in India, because we dont have public toilets. No, I dont believe that in India, the problem of public space filth is caused because we dont have enough trash bins in public spaces or that we have not come up with an alternative to the "harijan" system. No. The problem of sanitation in India is simply because all our institutions of authority have stopped talking about duty of each individual, about the dharma of each individual. Cleanliness is not a cultural value. RIGHTS are a cultural value. Getting something for nothing based on the numerical superiority of one group or caste of people over others, is a cultural value. Cleanliness is not a duty, not a dharma, not a cultural value. If somehow, it were to become a cultural value and each individual's dharma, and each individual understands it, either through cultural osmosis or through education, we already have the problem licked. No need for massive Western style solutions of building massive public toilets or massive landfills.
The individual who defecates in the open is perfectly happy about his personal cleanliness. He does not need lectures from anyone about cleanliness. He defecates out in the open and cleans himself and then washes his hands before he re enters his house. The problem is that his faeces is contaminating my water supply. He doesn't know it. That is the problem. His idea of cleanliness is affecting my health. He already thinks he is clean. He needs to be educated first, and later compelled not to do anything that affects the health of others..

You might want to have a look at this article in Todays paper

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 358270.ece

The interesting thing is that 20% increase in toilets results only in 10% decrease in open defecation and almost no decrease in diarrheal diseases.

In fact basic public health info needs to be taught in school about how polio, typhoid, cholera and jaundice are caused by bugs that come out with motions and when those motions get mixed with water and someone drinks the water that person gets one or more of those diseases. Instead we teach them about Siraj-ud Daula and Aurangzeb's benign rule because Indians, as you know don't have a history tradition so what everyone esle writes is Indian history
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by A_Gupta »

There is a "yuga dharma" as well.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

rsangram wrote:
I bet you, more than half the people will consider me crazy if I start saying that we should keep our public spaces clean. "Dont lecture us", people will tell me with a great deal of hostility. "
rsangramji - I don't want to divert the topic of this thread too much. I have been part of a citizens initiative for cleaning up garbage in Bangalore for over a decade now and the reaction that people have is definitely not what you say. Perhaps Bangalore is more organized than where you live - do you live somewhere in Bihar?

If that is the response you get where you live - it is not the response that seems to be evident from "Clean up Patna" or "Clean up Surat" efforts. Perhaps you need to reconsider the stereotypes you are creating.

Clearly there are others working on the problem too - have you tried contacting them? What response have you got from like-minded people? I don't think you are alone - some of your posts sound like you may feel you are a lone martyr.

See these links
http://nidan.in/nidanwp/nidan-swachdhar ... ited-nspl/
http://newmediacomm.com/swm_events/patn ... 0Patna.pdf
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by A_Gupta »

About definitions, I wouldn't worry too much about the seeming difficulty in giving a definition for dharma. The philosopher Wittgenstein pointed out that we all seem to know what games are, but it is difficult to define game.
Wittgenstein's explanation is tied up with an important analogy. How do we recognize that two people we know are related to one another? We may see similar height, weight, eye color, hair, nose, mouth, patterns of speech, social or political views, mannerisms, body structure, last names, etc. If we see enough matches we say we've noticed a family resemblance. It is perhaps important to note that this is not always a conscious process — generally we don't catalog various similarities until we reach a certain threshold, we just intuitively see the resemblances. Wittgenstein suggests that the same is true of language. We are all familiar (i.e. socially) with enough things which are games and enough things which are not games that we can categorize new activities as either games or not. (from Wiki)
or
Consider for example the proceedings that we call "games". I mean board-games, card-games, ball-games, Olympic games, and so on. What is common to them all? -- Don't say: "There must be something common, or they would not be called 'games' "-but look and see whether there is anything common to all. -- For if you look at them you will not see something that is common to all, but similarities, relationships, and a whole series of them at that. To repeat: don't think, but look! --

Look for example at board-games, with their multifarious relationships. Board games, what are some? Consider chess, of course, but think also of monopoly. Now pass to card-games; here you find many correspondences with the first group, but many common features drop out, and others appear.

When we pass next to ball-games, much that is common is retained, but much is lost.-- Are they all 'amusing'? Compare chess with noughts and crosses. Or is there always winning and losing, or competition between players? Think of patience. In ball games there is winning and losing; but when a child throws his ball at the wall and catches it again, this feature has disappeared. Look at the parts played by skill and luck; and at the difference between skill in chess and skill in tennis.

Think now of games like ring-a-ring-a-roses; here is the element of amusement, but how many other characteristic features have disappeared! sometimes similarities of detail.

And we can go through the many, many other groups of games in the same way; can see how similarities crop up and disappear.

And the result of this examination is: we see a complicated network of similarities overlapping and cries-crossing: sometimes overall similarities.

67. I can think of no better expression to characterize these similarities than "family resemblances"; for the various resemblances between members of a family: build, features, colour of eyes, gait, temperament, etc. etc. overlap and cries-cross in the same way.-And I shall say: 'games' form a family.
And we extend our concept ... as in spinning a thread we twist fibre on fibre. And the strength of the thread does not reside in the fact that some one fibre runs through its whole length, but in the overlapping of many fibres.
----
So it is with Dharma. If each person has their sva-dharma, then that may be an indication of how rich a concept it might be. Yes, there are some common principles (satya, ahimsa, ....) but they are not to be viewed as axioms of a deductive system. Rather, they are constitutive principles, like atoms, that can be put together in myriads of ways to create all different kinds of molecules.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Arun the need for "definition" of dharma falls within the observation made by Pulikeshi about declaration versus convention.

Hindu history is so long that we have a tremendous amount of confusing material about the who, what, where and when of dharma. And because certain practices commonly associated with dharma - satya, ahimsa, family values etc became social memes, they have rarely been listed as a declaration. Hindus get them in a hint-hint nudge-nudge format via stories, legends and conventions

It is essential that - for this age at least, we need to declare, as a list, certain norms of dharma, leaving the list open for other more context dependent dharmas - like justification for killing a human when he is an armed hostile enemy soldier.

The more we beat about the bush about what is required as dharma, the further we recede from protecting dharma - which ultimately constitutes an Indian ethos that generally explains and illustrates Indian behaviour. Because we fail to assert and declare what dharma should be seen as, we leave the field own for every western scholar to interpret India the way they want. That in turn affects Indian behaviour in some way - as beautifully illiustrated by Balu when he shows how Indians were forced into a declaration of what is their religion.

I believe that things like truth, family values, cleanliness, education etc are absolute and universal concepts in dharma that are non controversial and should simply be declared as a part of dharma by us educated English speaking Indians. We have to take the issue forward - depending on ancient texts for quotes can only get us so far.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by A_Gupta »

shiv wrote:I believe that things like truth, family values, cleanliness, education etc are absolute and universal concepts in dharma that are non controversial and should simply be declared as a part of dharma by us educated English speaking Indians. We have to take the issue forward - depending on ancient texts for quotes can only get us so far.
No problem with that. It is as controversial as "the science of nutrition tells us how much protein, carbohydrates, fat, vitamins and minerals we should eat". But then it gets complex - what stage of life are you in? what is your size? what is your current state of health? etc., etc., etc.

The goal is to get people to think about, recognize dharma and act accordingly, not to define it, just as the goal of "game" is not to define it but to play it and play it well -- but taking the non-controversial things and saying "these are dharma" (sotto voce, "until you are ready for more") is fine with me.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Arun - I am particularly and consistently insistent on illustrating the value of "family" as part of dharma and the need to care for children and parents. These values seem like "obvious" modes of positive and beneficial behaviour. But if they are, they should be declared to be as such.

In western literature and in the media I find a strange disjunction between the findings of social scientists and the actual direction in which western society seems to be heading. It is easy to find references to the importance of family. How a stable family leads to the development of stable adults. The need for a father in the the home for the proper social development of boys. The fact that broken homes lead to problems later on. Exposure to violence and pjorn in childhood both lead to behavioural change in adulthood. All this information is easily available and accessible. But none of this information can be put into practical social use in the west because of the way "individual rights" are viewed in the west. Western society has gradually moved towards broken homes - with the secondary effect of the elderly needing governmental intervention for their care, which should ideally come from family.

If you look at this from the "dharma" point of view it is easy to judge that some kind of effort to keep family intact and instil a sense of individual responsibility to family in everyone seems desirable. Of course there are a thousand questions about marriage, divorce, incompatibility, marital cruelty etc that need to be answered, but the overall thrust towards intact families and responsibility towards children and parents appears to be an ideal worth preserving.

Is it being actively preserved in India? In fact it would be possible for an educated and "aware" Hindu to compile the research findings about broken families as proof that intact families as per dharma are desirable.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by ShauryaT »

shiv wrote:If you look at this from the "dharma" point of view it is easy to judge that some kind of effort to keep family intact and instil a sense of individual responsibility to family in everyone seems desirable. Of course there are a thousand questions about marriage, divorce, incompatibility, marital cruelty etc that need to be answered, but the overall thrust towards intact families and responsibility towards children and parents appears to be an ideal worth preserving.
Ashrama Dharma or living as per the four stages of one's life. It is an anchor feature of the the dharmic way of life along with Kama or the fulfillment of desires. There are 16 events in one's life to mark the fulfillment of these desires (I advocate some changes here for the times). As an NRI, the physical distance that prohibits taking care of your parents and other elders in the family is a huge silent cost paid by most NRI's and their families, especially sons who are obligated to perform these duties and no amount of remittances can compensate. The sad part is in the formal declarative frameworks we follow today, such obligations and duties have no backing in law, leaving many elderly vulnerable.

What we need are laws that reinforce Ashrama Dharma, where the state assists the Grihasta - the house holder with ways to promote the fulfillment of obligatory duties to the best of one's ability. Passing on of assets to children when you are ALIVE not dead would be the natural state, when one enters the obligatory stage of Sanyasam - simply means your sansaric responsibilities are over now and you are under the care of your children. The government can encourage programs such as savings schemes for a Grihasta to enable them to save to fulfill obligations for children and elders alike. In extreme cases, where such obligations are not fulfilled and the state has to step in, penalties and the force of law can help draw the line on where does the framework stand - with individual rights or with obligatory duties.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

ShauryaT wrote: As an NRI, the physical distance that prohibits taking care of your parents and other elders in the family is a huge silent cost paid by most NRI's and their families, especially sons who are obligated to perform these duties and no amount of remittances can compensate.
Shaurya I empathize with your pain but the fact is that it is still being done believe it or not - and you too have probably done a lot. Speaks volumes for the depth to which these memes have bee instilled. They must not be frittered away. NRIs hardly "escape". Some solution is reached, even if the situation seems sad.

My parents may have been lucky in a sense because I moved back, but when my mother passed away suddenly I offered to finish off the rites - but no. My older brother in massaland put everything aside and was here to do what was needed. And he's certainly not the only one who goes through these sacrifices.

But if you sit on the side and watch NRIs - you find that they are doing their dharmic duties by and large. Why? All is not lost. We need to declare that these are dharmic duties. That is why they are done. They are necessary for stability of family and society.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by TSJones »

If you reject so called western universalism then you need to start writing in Hindi. Stop using English. That way you will have a more exclusive forum totally dedicated to Bharatiya. You won't be bothered by pests such as me and you will bask in the joy of your native language exclusive to your ideological needs. NaMo highly recommends this. NaMo speaks and understands English but he makes a point of speaking Hindi in public. No English for him.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

TSJones wrote:If you reject so called western universalism then you need to start writing in Hindi. Stop using English. That way you will have a more exclusive forum totally dedicated to Bharatiya. You won't be bothered by pests such as me and you will bask in the joy of your native language exclusive to your ideological needs. NaMo highly recommends this. NaMo speaks and understands English but he makes a point of speaking Hindi in public. No English for him.
:lol: Nice try, but not good enough. Those of us who live in India spend most of the days speaking in some Indian language. On a typical day I speak 3 Indian languages apart from English.

Actually I think Indians will come of age when we make English "our own". Everyone publishes an English dictionary and you have many national versions of English dictionaries. It should not be difficult to publish an Indian English dictionary that gets updated with Indian usages like "co brother" and "prepone". But Indians are stuck in two groups - one group like me and many others - fluent in English and identifying with the colonisers and contemptuous of the native Indian of the poor English and funny accent. And the other group that sees English as the language of the colonizer.

Both will meet when Indians adopt English with comfort. One of the reasons why the language is easy is because after a point the cognate words are so similar to Indian languages that they are easy to learn. Indian languages have so much taken from Sanskrit and Sanskrit has so much in common with Latin and Germanic languages.

You Americans have done some serious bullshit with English and still have the gumption to call it English. That will be done in India as well. That will be universalism.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by ramana »

TSJones wrote:If you reject so called western universalism then you need to start writing in Hindi. Stop using English. That way you will have a more exclusive forum totally dedicated to Bharatiya. You won't be bothered by pests such as me and you will bask in the joy of your native language exclusive to your ideological needs. NaMo highly recommends this. NaMo speaks and understands English but he makes a point of speaking Hindi in public. No English for him.

TSJ, For you kind information and gnan, there are more speakers of English in India than in England. And BTW these facts are from PBS show on English hosted by Robin McNeil.


Its fitting to call it Inglish.

By 2030 Indian English will the largest English speaking population and will own that language like the borg that India is!
Already Indian origin writers are dominating even American publishing industry.
Why don't you watch and learn instead of spitting bile.
You are seeing a new transformation and can tell your great grand kids you saw it happen!!!
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Yayavar »

Ramana: for years now when "corrected" on pronunciation by colleagues I have been saying I speak 'Inglish', you guys speak American; and god knows what the 'Englandish' people speak. The last one usually gets a laugh and we move on.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by TSJones »

ramana wrote:
TSJones wrote:If you reject so called western universalism then you need to start writing in Hindi. Stop using English. That way you will have a more exclusive forum totally dedicated to Bharatiya. You won't be bothered by pests such as me and you will bask in the joy of your native language exclusive to your ideological needs. NaMo highly recommends this. NaMo speaks and understands English but he makes a point of speaking Hindi in public. No English for him.

TSJ, For you kind information and gnan, there are more speakers of English in India than in England. And BTW these facts are from PBS show on English hosted by Robin McNeil.


Its fitting to call it Inglish.

By 2030 Indian English will the largest English speaking population and will own that language like the borg that India is!
Already Indian origin writers are dominating even American publishing industry.
Why don't you watch and learn instead of spitting bile.
You are seeing a new transformation and can tell your great grand kids you saw it happen!!!
I'm just following NaMo's thinking, that's all. Why use the language of colonialism to express the Indic ideology and opposing western universalism?
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Prem »

TSJones wrote:
ramana wrote:
I'm just following NaMo's thinking, that's all. Why use the language of colonialism to express the Indic ideology?
Cut the iron with iron and use poison as antidote to poison. These are two sayings among few favo"u"rite Indian things.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Rudradev »

TSJones wrote:If you reject so called western universalism then you need to start writing in Hindi. Stop using English. .
Thank you for a splendid illustration of exactly what I was trying to describe in my post here: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 9#p1705539

This response is akin to the Maitre d' at Le Frou Frou saying:

Eef you want to eat Bourguignon, monsieur, you have to wait for a reservation, wear a jacket and tie, order the escargots and rissoles on the side, and know which wine goes with what.

Othairwise, stick to your stinky samosas!
Bollocks. I can make bourguignon at home and eat it if I want. With papad on the side. Or I could hire a French chef to make it and serve it to me at home. And then eat it with my fingers while wearing a dhoti if I so choose.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by MurthyB »

TSJones wrote: I'm just following NaMo's thinking, that's all. Why use the language of colonialism to express the Indic ideology and opposing western universalism?
Pax people, pax. Western universalism can be opposed in English just as well; all we have to do is to take English back from the clutches of Anglo supremacists, bigots, believers in American exceptionalism, misogynists, Hinduphobes and a variety of other wrong-headed characters in America and England, whose colossal ambition to control India’s vast intellectual legacy is only matched by their abysmal ignorance of what it means and how it works.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by svinayak »

We are all NaMo people writing and speaking in ENGLISH
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_23692 »

Thanks for the links.

Do I live in Bihar ? Close enough. Right in the thick of the Hindi belt. In some ways Bihar is much better than where I live. In Bihar they stab you in the chest. Where I live, they will give you a hug and stab you in the back. Yes, and here it is an extremely lonely battle against filth on the outside and more importantly filth on the inside, which causes the filth on the outside. Here people will breathe foul air, drink gutter water, live in filth, all they care about is ownership of land, more land, then even more land and stacks of currency notes in their vaults, not even in the bank.

Where I live, there is no professional, educated, middle class. Most people are actually not poor. But you have the elite and the rest. The rest are traders, small business people, farmers, shop keepers, grain merchants, some labor. These "rest" have great aspirations, to be part of the elite, part of the mafia and they leave no stone unturned to climb into that elite. They have extremely limited, almost no exposure to Western Universalism. Whatever they do, good and bad, arises almost completely out of their Indianness. The elite are a combination of Western Universalists and those sons of soils who have risen to the top via mafia type activities, such as sand mafia, forest mafia, kerosene mafia, mining mafia, land mafia, government contracts mafia, trash mafia, usury mafia, pig mafia, cattle mafia, diesel mafia, press mafia...you get my drift...and the public infra-structure, public facilities and public spaces suck, but it is all rooted in Indianness, not Western Universalism, so much so that sometimes when I meet a Western Universalist, even a complete sell out buffoon here, it almost feels like fresh air. For a change, I get to listen to idiocy of the "other" variety.

I believe I am correct in generalizing. Bangalore may be different, but it is an exception in India. And I bet you, even in a place like Bangalore (I have visited Banglore a few times, by the way), in percentage terms, there will be a tiny minority who may think like you, but with the growing population you may find a few hundred or a few thousand like minded people, which keep you from getting lonely in your quests.

Even among your cohorts in Bangalore, who may feel strongly like you about keeping public areas clean, you will find a commonality. They are all products, although a very small subset of, Western education system (even if they were educated in India). That is such an irony. The Indian Indians, who have had no exposure to Western education system, who are the vast majority, who you would think would worry more about things like public spaces, and order, unfortunately, in practice are the worst offenders. That is why I find India upside down. Indian Indians have no sense of ownership of their country, its resources, its public spaces, despite being rooted here for longer than anybody has been rooted, just about anywhere.
Last edited by member_23692 on 29 Aug 2014 02:03, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by TSJones »

Actually NaMo is for western universalism style check banking for every citizen including a mandatory life insurance policy. Really, he seems like a pretty sharp guy.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Pulikeshi »

TSJones wrote:If you reject so called western universalism then you need to start writing in Hindi. Stop using English. That way you will have a more exclusive forum totally dedicated to Bharatiya. You won't be bothered by pests such as me and you will bask in the joy of your native language exclusive to your ideological needs. NaMo highly recommends this. NaMo speaks and understands English but he makes a point of speaking Hindi in public. No English for him.
For all I know ur Marimuttu Kariyappan from Koothappar throwing pebbles in the lake. :mrgreen:
That said:

1. No one will reject everything because rejection & reduction is itself Western Universalism.

2. How will 'they' digest you unless English is itself digested - Cricket is now Indian!

3. If OIT is proven, the English was onlee possible due to Indian genius - simble on lee :P

4. Some of 'they' speak English and Six other languages - but 'us' do not even 'se habla español!"

5. Always ask yourself what would a Dharmic do?
Last edited by Pulikeshi on 29 Aug 2014 04:57, edited 1 time in total.
member_23692
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_23692 »

TSJones wrote:If you reject so called western universalism then you need to start writing in Hindi. Stop using English. That way you will have a more exclusive forum totally dedicated to Bharatiya. You won't be bothered by pests such as me and you will bask in the joy of your native language exclusive to your ideological needs. NaMo highly recommends this. NaMo speaks and understands English but he makes a point of speaking Hindi in public. No English for him.
Why do Voice of America and BBC broadcast in Arabic, Spanish, Russian, Chinese, Farsi then ? By doing so, are they endorsing communism, ISIS, Shiite Mullahism, Maoism, Castroism ? There are plenty of US Senators, Congressmen and even Presidential Candidates who are for "English" as a national language.
shiv
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

TSJones wrote:Why use the language of colonialism to express the Indic ideology and opposing western universalism?
Wow! Don't know if this was a fluke - but that is an insightful question.

Language and culture are interlinked. When you learn a language you automatically imbibe the predominant culture that is riding on that language. For many Indians English becomes the predominant language and the culture and attitudes spread by that language nowadays are predominantly American. (It used to be British about 50 years ago.)

The unique thing about the English speaking Indian who has imbibed western (American/British) culture is that he does not respond positively to information that denigrates the western culture he has absorbed when the language used for criticism is an Indian language. It sounds like xenophobia and ignorance. In other words he responds somewhat like the British colonial masters used to do when criticized - that is to hit back with a totally closed mind and contempt and claim that a person who does not know English cannot be in a position to criticize anything western.

That is why this entire debate has to be conducted in English. No Indian fan of western universalism allows any communication outside of English. Whatever differences in attitudes that may exist have to be adequately translated into English

If you watch TV debates in India nowadays - you find that the Congress party has political figures whose English is refined, of generally neutral accent and erudite. BJP spokespersons sound more Indian - in accent and attitudes. Guess who are the favorite western universalists of this board? Arundhati Roy. Amartya Sen. Mani Shankar Aiyer. Listen to them speak sometime. Compare that with Modi
TSJones
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by TSJones »

5. Always ask yourself what would a Dharmic do?
Most excellent question and to the point.

Live the talk and walk the walk.

I have to say this: whatever I think about NaMo is beside the point. You see, I was taught at the USMC NCO school that there is no better leader than a living example. You must do what you say you will do and go by the standards you are espousing for others to follow.. It is of paramount importance not only to the Corps but your own personal life. You can't lead from behind.

NaMo for better or worse lives the talk, walks the walk as far I can see. I may not like some of it, but I cannot fault his leadership.

So, I am judging the responses on this thread to his stated leadership of what he wants the Indic state to be. It maybe unfair but it does not matter what I think since I am not Indic nor am I citizen of Bhatatiya, now does it?
Pulikeshi
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Pulikeshi »

TSJones wrote:Actually NaMo is for western universalism style check banking for every citizen including a mandatory life insurance policy. Really, he seems like a pretty sharp guy.
You will have to work harder than to make superficial jibes, esp on this forum.

The idea of banking, interest (which was forbidden in the Christian-Islamic culture) was adopted from SD.
If you read the Manu Smrithi, you are bound to understand that the very American way of treating a Corporation
as an individual for tax and legal purposes had its origins in the Smrithi. That these individuals have no Dharma is exactly why they several of them are parking all their money elsewhere to evade taxes in the US.

Sreni (Trade partnerships) had been insuring the poor (free of cost) against calamities for time immemorial.
I am glad you agree with the ideas of the East, that you are loathe to acknowledge loudly...
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Manish_Sharma »

SEVEN TYPES OF RELIGION

| From the book The Beloved part 2. Pune 1976 |

~Osho



RELIGION is a very complex phenomenon. Its complexity has to be understood.

There are seven types of religions in the world. The first type is ignorance-oriented. Because people cannot tolerate their ignorance, they hide it. Because it is difficult to know that one does not know, it is against the ego, people believe.

Their belief systems function to protect their egos. They are helpful, but in the long range they are very harmful. In the beginning they seem to be protecting, but finally they are very destructive. The very orientation is in ignorance.

Religion is light, religion is understanding, religion is awareness, religion is authenticity. But a major part of humanity remains in the first type of religion. It is simply to avoid the reality, to avoid the gap that one feels in one's own being, to avoid the black hole of ignorance.

The people of the first type are the fanatics. They cannot even tolerate that there can be other sorts of religions in the world. Their religion is THE religion. Because they are so afraid of their ignorance, if there is some other religion also then they will become suspicious, then doubt will arise.

Then they will not be so certain. To gain certainty they become very stubborn, madly stubborn. They cannot read others' scriptures, they cannot listen to other nuances of truth, they cannot be tolerant to other revelations of God.

THEIR revelation is the only revelation, and their prophet is the only prophet. Everything else is absolutely false. These people talk in terms of absolute, while a man of understanding is always relative.

These people have done great harm to religion. Because of these people, religion itself looks a little stupid. Remember not to be a victim of this first sort. Almost ninety percent of humanity lives in this first sort of religion, and that is in no way better than irreligion.

Maybe it is worse -- because an irreligious person is not fanatic. An irreligious person is more open, at least ready to listen, ready to talk things out, ready to argue, ready to seek and inquire. But the first type of religious person is not even ready to listen.

When I was a student in the university I used to stay with one of my professors. His mother was a very devout Hindu; completely uneducated, but very religious.

One day on a cold winter night, fire was burning in the room in the fireplace, and I was reading RIG VEDA. She came by the way and she asked, "What are you reading so late in the night?" Just to tease her, I said, "This is the Koran." She jumped over me, took away the RIG VEDA and threw it in the fireplace and said, "Are you a Mohammedan? How do you dare to bring the Koran in my house!"

Next day I told her son, my professor, that, "Your mother is a Mohammedan" -- because this sort of thing has only been known to be done by Mohammedans.

Mohammedans burnt one of the greatest treasures of the world, the library of Alexandria. The library was the greatest in the ancient world. The fire continued for almost six months, the library was so big.

It took six months for it to be burnt down completely. And the man who burnt it was a Mohammedan, Calipha. His logic is the logic of the first type of religion.

He came with a Koran in one hand and with a burning torch in the other, and he asked the librarian, "I have a simple question. In this big library, millions of books are there...."

Those books contained all that humanity had learned up to that time, and it was really more than we know now. That library contained every information about Lemuria, Atlantis, and all the scriptures of Atlantis, the continent that disappeared into the Atlantic.

It was the ancient-most library, a great preserve. Had it still been, humanity would have been totally different -- because we are rediscovering many things which had already been discovered.

This Calipha said, "If this library contains only that which is contained in the Koran, then it is not needed; it is superfluous. If it contains more than is contained in the Koran, then it is wrong.

Then it has to be destroyed immediately. Either way it has to be destroyed. If it contains the same as the Koran, then it is superfluous. Why manage such a big library unnecessarily? The Koran is enough. And if you say that it contains many more things than the Koran, then those things are bound to be wrong, because the Koran is THE truth."

Holding the Koran in one hand, he started the fire with the other hand -- in the name of the Koran. Mohammed must have cried and wept that day in heaven, because in his name, the library was being burnt. This is the first type of religion. Always remain alert, because this stubborn man exists in everybody.

I was reading just the other night....

The two old codgers had equal reputations for being stubborn. When they encountered each other in situations where one had to give in, a third party usually had to settle the issue. One day the old fellows, each driving a large load of hay, met on a narrow lane. Both determined not to give an inch.

Finally one said to the other, "I am prepared to stay here as long as you want to wait." He took out his newspaper and began to read. The other filled his pipe and smoked contentedly. After half an hour of silence he leaned forward and called out to his neighbor, "Would you mind letting me read the paper when you are through?"



THIS stubborn man exists in everybody, and this is the lowest type of man. It exists in Hindus, it exists in Mohammedans, it exists in Christians, Buddhists, Jains -- it exists in everybody

And everybody has to be aware not to get caught. Only then can you rise to higher sorts of religion.

The problem with this first type of religion is that we are almost always brought up in it. We are conditioned in it, so it becomes almost normal. It looks normal. A Hindu is brought up with the idea that others are wrong. Even if he is taught to be tolerant, that tolerance is of one who knows towards others who don't know.

A Jain is ABSOLUTELY brought up with the belief that only he is right; others are all ignorant, stumbling, groping in darkness. This conditioning can become so deep that you may forget that this is a conditioning, and that you have to go above it.

Mulla Nasrudin was telling a friend his future through palmistry. He said, "You will be poor and unhappy and miserable until you are sixty."

"Then what?" asked the man hopefully.

"By that time," said Nasrudin, "you will be used to it."

That's the problem: one can become used to a certain conditioning, and one can start thinking as if it is one's nature, or as if it is the truth. So one has to be very alert and watchful to find this lowest possibility in oneself and not get caught in it.

Sometimes we go on working hard in transforming our lives, and we go on believing in the first type of religion. The revolution is not possible -- because you are trying something which is so low that it cannot be really religious. The first type of religion is just religion in name; it should not be called religion.

One man was saying to another, "My son-in-law, the doctor, has been treating a patient for yellow jaundice for twenty years. He just found out the man was Chinese."

"Ain't that something?" said the other man.

"What is terrible is, he cured him."

Twenty years treating a man for yellow jaundice -- he may be a Chinese, but how long can he protect himself? If continuously you work on yourself with a wrong attitude, your nature starts yielding.

You start functioning the way you want to function. Yes, the habit can become second nature. Unfortunately, sometimes it becomes first nature, and nature is completely forgotten.

The characteristic of the first sort of religion is imitation. It insists on imitation: imitate Buddha, imitate Christ, imitate Mahavir, but imitate. Imitate somebody. Don't be yourself, be somebody else. And if you are very stubborn you can force yourself to be somebody else.

You will never be somebody else. Deep down you cannot be. You will remain yourself, but you can force so much that you almost start looking like somebody else.

Each man is born with a unique individuality, and each man has a destiny of his own. Imitation is crime, it is criminal. If you try to become a Buddha, you may become an imitation Buddha.

You may look like Buddha, you may walk like Buddha, you may talk like Buddha, but you will miss. You will miss all that life was ready to deliver to you. Because Buddha happens only once. It is not in the nature of things to repeat. God is so creative that He never repeats anything.

You cannot find another human being in the present, in the past, or in the future, who is going to resemble you exactly. It has never happened.

Man is not a mechanism. He is not like Ford cars on an assembly line; you can produce millions alike, exactly alike. Man is a soul, is individual.

Imitation is poisonous. Never imitate anybody, otherwise you will be a victim of the first sort of religion, which is not religion at all.


Second type

Then there is the second type. The second type is fear-oriented.

Man IS afraid, the world IS a strange world, and man wants to be secure, safe. In childhood the father protects, the mother protects. But there are many people, millions of them, who never grow beyond their childhoods. They remain stuck somewhere, and they still need a father and a mother. Hence God is called the Father or the Mother. They need a divine Father to protect them; they are not mature enough to be on their own. They need some security.

One psychologist, Winnicott, has been working with a particular problem with small children for many years, and he has discovered many beautiful things. They are pertinent.

You may have watched small children with their teddy bear, or their toy, their special toy, or their blanket, or something that has a special personality to the child. The teddy bear...you cannot replace the teddy bear. You may say that you can find a better one, but that doesn't matter.

There is a love relationship between the child and HIS teddy bear. His teddy bear is unique; you cannot replace it. It becomes dirty, it becomes smelly, rotten, but the child goes on carrying it. You cannot find a new one, a fresh one. Even parents have to tolerate it. Even they have to respect, because a child feels offended. If the parents are going to travel, they have to tolerate the teddy bear also; they have to treat it almost as a member of the family. They know this is foolish, but for the child it has significance.

What significance does the teddy bear have for the child? It is objective in a way. It is there, outside the child; it is part of reality.

Certainly it is not just imagination, it is not just subjective; it is not a dream, it is there. But it is not totally there; many of the child's dreams are involved in it. It is object, objective, but much subjectivity is involved in it.

For the child it is almost alive. The child has projected many things onto the teddy bear. He talks to the teddy bear, sometimes he becomes angry and throws it away, then says'I am sorry' and takes it back. It has a personality, almost human.

Without the teddy bear he cannot go to sleep. Holding, hugging, he goes to sleep; he feels secure. With the teddy bear the world is okay, everything is okay. Without the teddy bear he is suddenly alone.

So the teddy bear exists in a totally new dimension which is neither subjective nor objective. Winnicott calls it 'the transitory realm': a little objective and a little subjective. Many children grow physically, but they never grow spiritually, and they need teddy bears all their lives. Your images of God in the temple are nothing but teddy bears.

So when a Hindu goes into the Hindu temple, he sees something which a Mohammedan cannot see. The Mohammedan can only see a stone statue.

The Hindu sees something which nobody else can see; it is his teddy bear. It is objectively there, but not totally objective. Much subjectivity of the worshipper is projected on it; t functions as a screen.

You go to a Jain temple. You may be a Hindu, but in a Jain temple you will not feel any reverence arising in you. Sometimes you may even feel a little offended, because Mahavir, his statue, is nude, naked.

You may feel a little offended. You may like to go out as soon as possible; you may not feel any respect. But then there comes a Jain with tremendous respect; it is his teddy bear, and he feels very protected.

So whenever you are in fear, you start remembering God. Your God is a by-product of your fear. When you are feeling good, unafraid, you don't bother. There is no need.

THE second type of religion is fear-oriented. It is very ill.

It is almost neurotic -- because maturity only comes to you when you realize that you ARE alone, and you have to be alone, and you have to face the reality as it is. These transitory teddy bears are just of your imagination; they are not going to help. If something is going to happen, it is going to happen; the teddy bear cannot protect you. If death is going to happen, it is going to happen. You go on calling to God, but protection cannot come to you. You are calling nobody, you are simply calling out of fear. Maybe calling loudly gives you a certain courage.

Maybe praying...prayer gives you a certain courage, but there is no God to respond to it. There is nobody who is going to respond to your prayer. But if you have an idea that somebody is there to respond to your prayer, you may feel a little relieved, relaxed.

Once I saw Mulla Nasrudin praying very devoutly. When he had finished his NAMAJ, I asked him, "Mulla, there must be some problem; you were praying so deeply. Please answer my one question: is your prayer ever answered?"

He said, "Yes, one way or the other."

But if the prayer is answered one way or the other, what is the point of it? Yes, sometimes it coincides with facts, sometimes it does not coincide with the facts, but your prayer makes no difference to the facts. It may make a little difference in your mind, but it makes no difference in reality.

The fear-oriented religion is the religion of 'don't': don't do this, don't do that -- because fear is negative. The Ten Commandments are all fear-oriented -- don't do this, don't do that -- as if religion is nothing but avoiding -- don't do this, don't do that -- closing oneself in safety and security, never taking any risk, never moving on the dangerous path, in fact not allowing yourself to be alive. Just as the first type of religion is stupid, fanatic, the second type of religion is negative. It gives a certain stiffness, up-tightness. It is childish. It is a search for security which is nowhere possible, because life exists as insecurity. God exists as insecurity, danger, and risk.

THE key word for the fear-oriented religion is "hell', and of course, repression, continuous repression: don't do this.

The second type of person is always afraid -- what to eat, what not to eat, whether to love a woman or not to love a woman, whether to make a house or not to make a house. And whatsoever you repress, you are never free of it; in fact, the more and more you are in its power.

Because when you repress a thing it goes deeper into your unconscious. It reaches to your very roots and poisons your whole being.

I have heard....

An old-timer was seeing a movie for the first time. He was known to be a very religious man, a man who used to do his prayer regularly, fulfill all the duties, had never been known to get involved in any sort of problematic situations.

He was, in short, a very simple man -- but not so simple inside. At one point in the feature, a bevy of shapely girls dashed across the screen. They crossed a railroad track, reached a swimming pool and began to disrobe for the plunge.

They had taken off their shoes, stockings, shirts, skirts, and were beginning on...and a passing freight train sped across the screen and obscured the view. When it had passed, the next scene showed the girls frolicking in the water.

The old-timer saw the show again and again and again. At length an usher tapped him on the shoulder. "Are you not ever going home?" he asked.

"Oh, I reckon not yet for awhile," said the old-timer. "One of these times that darned train is going to be late."

Deep inside you will always carry whatsoever is repressed. You may follow the religion as ritual, but it will never become your heart.

I have heard an anecdote:

For centuries European Jews were the victims of organized persecution, called pogroms. These pogroms took place so often that Jews developed a sense of humor about them.

In a small town in Poland, soldiers broke into the house of Ostrovoski and his family. Living with him were his wife, three daughters, two sons, and his very aged and religious mother. She was known around almost as a saint.

"Line up!" shouted the sergeant in charge. "We are gonna beat up all the men and rape all the women!"

"Wait," pleaded Ostrovoski. "You can wallop me and my sons, abuse my wife and daughters, but please sir, I beg you, don't rape my mother. She is seventy-five years old and very religious."

"Shut up!" yelled the old woman. "A pogrom is a pogrom!"

Remember, repression is not a way towards freedom. Repression is worse than expression, because through expression a person is BOUND to become free one day or other.

But through repression, one always remains obsessed. Only life gives you freedom. A lived life gives you freedom, an unlived life remains very attractive, and the mind goes on roaming around whatsoever you have repressed.

Smulovitz, aged eighty-three and widowed, refused to be placed in just any Miami Beach old-age home. "I won't eat anything," he declared to his son, "unless it is strictly kosher."

The son searched for weeks and finally found a place that served meals in accordance with the Jewish dietary laws. He placed his old father in the home, secure in the knowledge that his father would be eating only kosher food.

Three days later he came for a visit and learned that the old man had left and checked into the Fontainbleau Hotel. The boy rushed over to the hotel, got a key, went upstairs, opened the door, and there was his father in bed with a blonde. They were both stark naked.

"Poppa, how could you?" asked the bewildered boy.

"But look," said the old man, "I'm not eating."

People who live through rituals out of fear may avoid one thing, but they will fall into another -- because the understanding is not their own. It is just fear-oriented. It is hell they are afraid of.

A real religion gives you fearlessness: let that be the criterion. If religion gives you fear, then it is not really religion.


Third type

The third type of religion is out of greed.

It is a 'do' religion. Just as the fear-oriented is a 'don't' religion, the greed-oriented is a 'do' religion: do this. And just as the fear-oriented religion has the key word 'hell', the religion of greed has the key word 'heaven'. Everything is to be done in such a way that the world -- the other world -- is completely secure and your happiness beyond death is guaranteed.

'Do' religion or greed religion is formal, ritualistic, ambitious, desire-oriented. It is full of desires. See the Mohammedan concept of paradise, or the Christian concept of paradise, or the Hindu concept of paradise. Degrees may be different, but this is a very strange thing: all that these people say one has to deny oneself in this life, they go on providing in heaven in great quantities.

You are to be celibate here just to achieve heaven where beautiful APSARAS, always young, stuck at the age of sixteen, are available. Mohammedans say, "Don't take any alcoholic beverage. But in heaven, rivers of wine! No need to be worried."

But this seems to be absurd. If something is wrong, it is wrong. How can it become good and right in heaven?

Then Omar Khayam is right. He says, "If in heaven rivers of wine are available then let us practice here, because if we go unpracticed, it will be difficult to live in paradise.

So let this life be a little rehearsal, so that we have the taste, and we have the capacity." Then Omar Khayam seems to be more logical. In fact, he is joking against the Mohammedan concept of paradise. It is foolish; the whole concept is foolish. But people become religious out of greed.

One thing is certain: that whatsoever you accumulate here will be taken away; death will take it away. So the greedy person wants to accumulate something which cannot be taken by death.

But the accumulating idea, the desire to accumulate, remains there. Now he accumulates virtue. Virtue is the coin of the other world. He goes on accumulating virtue so he can live in the other world forever and forever, in lust.

This type of man is basically worldly. His other world is nothing but a projection of this world. He will do because he has desires, and he has ambition, and he has a power-lust, but his doing will not be of the heart. It will be a sort of manipulation.

Mulla Nasrudin and his young son were driving in the country one winter. It was snowing; their bullock-cart broke down. They finally reached a farm-house and were welcomed for the night.

The house was cold and the attic in which they were invited to spend the night was like an icebox. Stripping to his underwear, the Mulla jumped into a featherbed and pulled the blankets over his head. The young man was slightly embarrassed.

"Excuse me, Dad," he said. "Don't you think we ought to say our prayers before going to bed?"

The Mulla stuck one eye out from under the covers. "Son," he said, "I keep prayed up ahead for situations just like this one."

Then things are just on the surface. Greed and fear and ignorance are just on the periphery.

These are three sorts of religions -- and they are all mixed together. You cannot find a person who is absolutely, purely of the first type or the second type or the third type.

Wherever greed is, there is fear; wherever fear is, there is greed; and wherever greed and fear exist, there is ignorance -- because they cannot exist without them. So I am not talking about pure types. I am classifying simply so that you can understand well. Otherwise they are all mixed.

These three are the lowest types of religion. They should not be called religions.


The forth type

Then there is the fourth type: the religion of logic, calculation, cleverness.

It is 'do' plus 'don't' religion: worldly, materialistic, opportunistic, intellectual, theoretical, scriptural, traditional. This is the religion of the PUNDITS, the learned scholar who tries to prove God through logic, who thinks that the mysteries of life can be understood through the head.

This type of religion creates theology. It is not really religion but just a very faint carbon copy of it. But all the churches are based on it. When a Buddha exists in the world, or a Mohammed, or a Krishna, or a Christ, then pundits and scholars and learned people, intellectually clever and cunning people, gather together around them. They start working hard: "What does Jesus mean?"

They start creating a theology, a creed, a dogma, a church. They are very successful people because they are very logical people. They cannot give you God, they cannot give you truth, but they give you great organizations. They give you the Catholic Church, the Protestant Church.

They give you great theologies, just clevernesses, nothing of the real experience; just intellectual, head-oriented. Their whole edifice is as if one is making a house of cards: a small breeze and the house is gone. Their whole edifice is such, as if one is trying to sail in a boat of paper. It looks like a real boat, the form is of a boat, but it is a paper boat. It is doomed, it is already doomed. Logic is a paper boat. And life cannot be understood through logic.

I have heard about one American:

A very wealthy American was convinced that an atomic war was just around the corner, and determined that he would survive it.

He bought an acre of land in the middle of the Arizona desert and employed a labor force to build him a home five miles underground. It was to be encased in lead fifty yards thick, and equipped with its own power plant which would supply sufficient electricity to give him light, heat, and purified air for at least ten years.

Frozen food, water, cigars, alcoholic refreshment, for the same period of time had to be provided, together with every conceivable aid to luxurious living. The job was completed in three years at a cost of five hundred thousand million dollars.

The proud owner went to the desert to inspect it, and a red Indian shot him in the back with an arrow.

That's how life is: you make all the arrangements and just one arrow is enough to finish you. Man is very fragile.

How can man's logic understand reality? Man is so limited, his understanding is so short-sighted. No, there is no way through logic. Through logic a philosophy is born, but not real religion.


THESE four are ordinarily known as religion.


The fifth type

The fifth, sixth and seventh are the real religions. The fifth is the religion based on intelligence; not on logic, not on intellect, but on intelligence. And there is a lot of difference between intellect and intelligence.

Intellect is logical; intelligence is paradoxical. Intellect is analytical; intelligence is synthetical. Intellect divides, cuts into pieces to understand a thing. Science is based on intellect, dissection, division, analysis. Intelligence joins things together, makes a whole out of parts -- because this is one of the greatest understandings: that the part exists through the whole, not vice versa. And the whole is not just the sum of the parts, it is more than the sum.

For example, you can have a rose flower, and you can go to a scientist, to a logician. You can ask him, "I want to understand this rose flower"; what will he do? He will dissect it, he will separate all the elements that are making it a flower. When you go next you will find the flower gone. Instead of the flower there will be a few labelled bottles. The elements have been separated, but one thing is certain -- there will not be any bottle on which will be the label 'beauty'.

Beauty is not matter and beauty does not belong to parts. Once you dissect a flower, once the wholeness of the flower is gone, beauty is also gone. Beauty belongs to the whole, it is the grace that comes to the whole. It is more than the sum.

Then only parts are there. You can dissect a man; the moment you dissect, life disappears. Then you know only a dead body, a corpse. You can find out how much aluminium is there and how much iron and how much water (eighty percent or something); you can find the whole mechanism the lungs, the kidneys, everything -- but one thing is not there: life.

One thing is not there that was the most valuable. One thing is not there that we wanted to understand really, and everything else is there.

Now even scientists are becoming alert that when you take blood out of a man's bloodstream and you examine it, it is no longer the same blood.

Inside the bloodstream of the man it was alive, throbbing with life. Now it is just a corpse. It cannot be the same because the gestalt has changed. You can take the color of the rose flower from it, but is it the same color?

It looks the same but it cannot be the same. Where is that fragileness? Where is that aliveness, that throb of life? When it was in the rose flower it was in a totally different arrangement and life was present.

It was full of presence; God was there beating in its heart. Taken out, the part is there but you cannot say the part is the same. It cannot be because the part exists in the whole.

Intellect dissects, analyzes. It is the instrument of science. Intelligence is the instrument of religion; it joins together.

Hence, the greatest science of spirituality we have called Yoga. Yoga means the methodology to join. Yoga means to put things together. God is the greatest totality, all things together.

God is not a person, God is a presence, the presence when the total is functioning in a great harmony -- the trees and the birds and the earth and the stars and the moon and the sun and the rivers and the ocean -- all together. That togetherness is God. If you dissect, you will never find God.
Dissect a man; you cannot find the presence that was making him alive. Dissect the world; you cannot find the presence that is God.


Intelligence is the method to join things together. An intelligent person is very synthetical. He always looks for a higher whole, because the meaning is always in the higher whole.

He always looks for something higher in which the lower is dissolved and functions as a part, functions as a note in the harmony of the whole, gives its own contribution to the orchestra of the whole but is not separate from it. Intelligence moves upwards, intellect moves downwards. Intellect goes to the cause.

Please follow it; the point is delicate.

Intellect goes to the cause; intelligence goes to the goal. Intelligence moves into the future, intellect moves in the past.

Intellect reduces everything to the lowest denominator. If you ask what love is, intellect will say it is nothing but sex -- the lowest denominator. If you ask what prayer is, the intellect will say it is nothing but repressed sex.

Ask intelligence what sex is, and intelligence will say it is nothing but the seed of prayer. It is the potential love. Intellect reduces to the lowest; it reduces everything to the lowest.

Ask intellect what a lotus is, and it will say it is nothing, just an illusion; the reality is the mud -- because the lotus comes out of the mud and again falls back into the mud. The mud is the real, the lotus is just an illusion. Mud remains, the lotus comes and goes.

Ask intelligence what mud is, and intelligence will say, "It is the potentiality of being a lotus." Then mud disappears and millions of lotuses flower.

Intelligence goes to the higher and higher and the higher, and the whole effort is to reach to the ultimate, to the pinnacle of existence.

Because things can be explained only through the higher, not through the lower. You don't explain through the lower, you explain away. And when the lower becomes too important, all beauty is lost, all truth, all good. Everything that has any significance is lost. Then you start crying, "Where is meaning in life?"

In the West, science destroyed every value and reduced everything to matter. Now everybody is worried about what is the meaning of life, because meaning exists in the higher whole.

See, you are alone; you feel, "What is the meaning of life?" Then you fall in love with a woman; a certain meaning arises. Now two have become one -- a little higher. A single man is a little. Lower than a couple. A couple is a little higher. Two things have joined together. Two opposite forces have mingled, the feminine and the male energies. Now it is more of a circle.

That's why in India we have the concept of ARDHANARISHWAR. Shiva is painted as half woman and half man.

The concept of ARDHANARISHWAR says that man is half, and woman is half. When a man and woman meet in deep love, a higher reality arises: certainly greater, more complex, because two energies are meeting.

Then a child is born; now there is a family -- more meaning. Now the father feels a meaning in his life: the child has to be brought up. He loves the child, he works hard, but work is now no longer work. He is working for his child, for his beloved, for his home.

He works, but the hardness of the work has disappeared. He is not dragging it. Tired of the whole day, he comes home dancing. Seeing the smile on his child's face, he is tremendously happy. A family is a higher unit than the couple, and so on and so forth. And God is nothing but the communion of all, the greatest family of all.

That's why I go on calling these orange people my family. I would like you to disappear in the whole. I would like you to be so absorbed in the whole that you remain individual, but you become part of a greater unity, bigger than you. Meaning arises IMMEDIATELY whenever you become part of a greater unity.

When a poet writes a poem, meaning arises -- because the poet is not alone; he has created something. When a dancer dances, meaning arises. When a mother gives birth to a child, meaning arises.

Left alone, cut from everything else, isolated like an island, you are meaningless. Joined together you are meaningful. The bigger the whole, the bigger is the meaning. That's why I say God is the biggest conceivable whole, and without God you cannot attain to the highest meaning. God is not a person; God is not sitting somewhere. Those ideas are just stupid. God is the total presence of existence, the being, the very ground of being.

GOD exists wherever there is union; wherever there is Yoga, God comes into existence. You are walking alone; God is fast asleep. Then suddenly you see somebody and you smile; God is awakened, the other has come in.

Your smile is not isolated, it is a bridge. You have thrown a bridge towards the other. The other has also smiled, there has been a response. Between you both arises that space I call God -- a little throb.

When you come to the tree and you sit by the side of the tree, completely oblivious to the existence of the tree, God is fast asleep. Then suddenly you look at the tree, and an upsurge of feeling for the tree and God has arisen.

Wherever there is love, God is; wherever there is response, God is. God is the space; it exists wherever union exists. That's why I say love is the purest possibility of God, because it is the subtlest union of energies.

Hence the insistence of the Bauls that love is God. Forget God, love will do. But never forget love, because God alone won't do.

Intelligence is discrimination, understanding. Truth is the key word, sat. The man who moves through intelligence moves towards SAT, truth.

Higher than intelligence is the sixth type of religion. I call it the religion of meditation.

Meditation is awareness, spontaneity, what the Bauls call SAHAJA MANUSH, the spontaneous man. Freedom -- it is non-traditional, it is radical, revolutionary, individual.

The key word is CHIT, consciousness. Intelligence is still the highest form of intellect, intelligence is the purest form of intellect. The ladder is the same. Intellect is going downwards on the same ladder, intelligence is going upwards, but the ladder is the same. In meditation the ladder is thrown. Now, no more movement on the same ladder, neither upwards nor downwards. Now, no more movement, but a state of no-movement inside, a drowning into oneself, a sinking in.

Intellect is other-oriented; intelligence is also other-oriented. Intellect cuts the other, intelligence joins the other, but both are other-oriented. So if you understand rightly, the first four types of religion I don't call religion. They are pseudo-religions. Real religion starts with the fifth type, and that is the lowest, but REAL.


The sixth type

The sixth type of religion is that of meditation, consciousness, CHIT. One simply moves into oneself. All directions are dropped, all dimensions dropped.

One simply tries to be oneself, one simply tries just to be. That is where Zen exists, in the sixth type of religion. The very word 'Zen' means DHYANA, meditation.


The seventh type

Then comes the highest type of religion, the seventh: the religion of ecstasy, SAMADHI.

Just as the fifth type has the key word SAT, truth, and the sixth type, the religion of meditation, has the key word CHIT, consciousness, the seventh. the highest, has ANAND, bliss, ecstasy. That is the key word: SAT-CHIT-ANANDA, truth, consciousness, ecstasy.

The Bauls belong to the seventh type -- joy, celebration, song, dance, ecstasy -- ANAND. They make meditation tremendously joyful -- because a person can be meditative and can become sad. A person can be meditative and can become very silent and may miss bliss. Because meditation can make you silent, absolutely still, but unless dance happens in it, something is missing. Peace is good, peace is very beautiful, but something is lacking in it; bliss is lacking. When peace starts dancing it is bliss. When peace becomes active, overflowing, it is bliss. When bliss is enclosed in a seed it is peace. And when the seed has sprouted, not only that, but the tree has bloomed and the flowers have come and the seed has become a bloom, then it is SAMADHI. That is the highest type of religion.

Peace has to dance

and silence has to sing.

And unless your innermost realization

becomes a laughter,

something is still lacking.

Something still has to be done.

http://www.friakademi.se/downloads/OSHO-7Types.html
Last edited by Manish_Sharma on 29 Aug 2014 05:57, edited 2 times in total.
shiv
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

rsangram wrote:They are all products, although a very small subset of, Western education system (even if they were educated in India). That is such an irony. The Indian Indians, who have had no exposure to Western education system, who are the vast majority, who you would think would worry more about things like public spaces, and order, unfortunately, in practice are the worst offenders. That is why I find India upside down. Indian Indians have no sense of ownership of their country, its resources, its public spaces, despite being rooted here for longer than anybody has been rooted, just about anywhere.
I think it is even more upside down than you have (rightly) recognized

The western educated WU activists who are fighting the "Indian" polluters think western. They are unable to see the issue from the eyes of the Indian who has a different concept of ownership and use of public space than the western influenced hygiene activist like you or me. Unless the latter (we) start thinking like the former we will not be able to provide solutions without attracting apathy at best and hostility at worst.

Look at it in this way - the Indian polluter is only capable of thinking what he knows. You and I have the advantage of knowing something totally different. But we also have the advantage of trying to think like the Indian polluter and ask why he acts that way. Ultimately a solution that suits all will have to come from a meeting and understanding of the motives of particular behaviors.

I am certain that the hostility you face and the frustration you show are directly related to a massive difference in the way you and "they" think. As long as that continues, nothing will change. You have to be more intelligent than "them" and think like them and explain yourself to them in terms that they can understand. That is the only way forward.

of course the possibility exists that parts of India like Bangalore will gradually influence other states and finally force your part of the country to change. Bangalore is bad in a thousand different ways - but there is a culture of trying to make things better for all. Ahmedabad is better than Bangalore an many ways - but that is OT and my laptop is out of battery power.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_23692 »

shiv wrote:
rsangram wrote:They are all products, although a very small subset of, Western education system (even if they were educated in India). That is such an irony. The Indian Indians, who have had no exposure to Western education system, who are the vast majority, who you would think would worry more about things like public spaces, and order, unfortunately, in practice are the worst offenders. That is why I find India upside down. Indian Indians have no sense of ownership of their country, its resources, its public spaces, despite being rooted here for longer than anybody has been rooted, just about anywhere.
I think it is even more upside down than you have (rightly) recognized

The western educated WU activists who are fighting the "Indian" polluters think western. They are unable to see the issue from the eyes of the Indian who has a different concept of ownership and use of public space than the western influenced hygiene activist like you or me. Unless the latter (we) start thinking like the former we will not be able to provide solutions without attracting apathy at best and hostility at worst.

Look at it in this way - the Indian polluter is only capable of thinking what he knows. You and I have the advantage of knowing something totally different. But we also have the advantage of trying to think like the Indian polluter and ask why he acts that way. Ultimately a solution that suits all will have to come from a meeting and understanding of the motives of particular behaviors.

I am certain that the hostility you face and the frustration you show are directly related to a massive difference in the way you and "they" think. As long as that continues, nothing will change. You have to be more intelligent than "them" and think like them and explain yourself to them in terms that they can understand. That is the only way forward.

of course the possibility exists that parts of India like Bangalore will gradually influence other states and finally force your part of the country to change. Bangalore is bad in a thousand different ways - but there is a culture of trying to make things better for all. Ahmedabad is better than Bangalore an many ways - but that is OT and my laptop is out of battery power.
All what you say is true, and I understand the spirit in which you say it.

But we must be careful in how we state it, so that it does not sound like, if Indian Indians dont see something as a problem, then there is, in fact NOT a problem. That would then be in essence saying that whatever the Indian Indians do, is by definition correct. If that were so, then we would not have, as Indian Indians, lost 80% of our sphere to influence and consistently been humiliated over 1000 years. Some powerful Indian Indians, at the time thought it right, without any prompting from Western Universalism, that siding with Ghori against their own brother was not a problem. Indian Indians, in the millions thought over the millenia that converting to Islam was "not a problem", some still do. Indian Indians have over last 65 years elected the most horrendous criminals in Dharmic history, and saw no problem with it, a majority still dont see it as a problem.

Coming to the "problems" in my neck of the wood, I dont think it is necessarily because I cant think like them and devise "a smart solution", which would "outsmart" them, that I am ineffective. It certainly can be part of a problem. How big a part, I will let others judge. I am sure at any point in time, Prithviraj Chauhan or Maharana Sangram Singh in Panipat or Maharana Pratap Singh or any number of Indians could have been even smarter, and had they been sufficiently smarter, they might have won. Of course, I am not in any way comparing myself to those illuminaries, simply name some recognizable names to make a point.

At some point, all the smarts and all the soft stuff, which all have their place, dont work. At some point, you require coercive elements in the right proportion. Without that, sometimes, all the smarts, unfortunately, stay ineffective. Trust me, it is not difficult for me or you or most of us to think like the mafia and predict how they will act. The problem is not predicting their actions, the problem is that after you have thought like them and anticipated their actions, you come to the conclusion that they will only respond to coercion, and then you dont have that coercive element at your disposal. so you watch helplessly and hopelessly as people around you commit suicide and drag you down with them.

I am adding this as an after thought, but I think it is related to the point. This unwillingness to acknowledge the fact that coercion in any constructive process is a necessary element, is I think not only a symptom of us Indians living in denial but is a very dangerous ostrich like act. All of our 3000 years, some say 5000 years of Dharmic cultural evolution took place under systems of governance which had coercive elements of varying degrees. You think we developed this "civilization", over many millenia, which has many flaws admittedly, but it is a civilization nevertheless (most people in this world cannot claim to have the heritage of a true civilization), through non coercive democracies or anarchies or petty mafia form of governance?

Yes, and I will freely admit that you require less coercion in relative terms in a Bangalore or a Mumbai to have the Indian Indians do the right things, than say in a Delhi or the Hindi belt. But not that much less. After all, we are all Indians.
Last edited by member_23692 on 29 Aug 2014 07:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Pulikeshi »

^^^ Regarding Ganesha/Diwali and pollution etc... some quick thoughts:

1. When a few hundred or thousand families practiced these festivals and followed very simple sustainable ways to celebrate the festival - clay idols, small sparkle sticks, etc. there were no scaling issues.

2. When population grew, but the festival practices could not be fulfilled by traditional methods, the only system that provided solution was 'mass production,' automated manufactured idols, etc. Further, the fireworks got more and more elaborate.

3. Now that the scaling problem has been identified, several moves towards eco-friendly idols etc. have started, esp in Bangalore, but these too are western ideas and the solutions are expensive, no harm in borrowing them, but clearly no one wants to make a declaration that only hand made clay idols, either in India, with Indian clay, and with bio-degradable paints etc. are per Dharma etc. Or even better find new solutions...
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Pulikeshi »

TSJones wrote: So, I am judging the responses on this thread to his stated leadership of what he wants the Indic state to be. It maybe unfair but it does not matter what I think since I am not Indic nor am I citizen of Bhatatiya, now does it?
TSJones-san - First it does matter to you as you are on a site called Bharat Rakshak, albeit surprisingly the names of the country - Bharat - seems to escape you. Second - good or bad, right or wrong - PM Modi represents all of India. What you or I think of him or not, his view of the future has been voted on by the largest mass of humanity on Earth. What some of us argue and fine tune on BRF is a small subset of that overall thinking no doubt and many here care about Bharat as a civilization, even if the country of India given its democratic setup eventually finds it way after trying all the other wrong ways. This must be very familiar and comforting to you.
shiv
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Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

rsangram wrote: But we must be careful in how we state it, so that it does not sound like, if Indian Indians dont see something as a problem, then there is, in fact NOT a problem. That would then be in essence saying that whatever the Indian Indians do, is by definition correct.
This is true anywhere in the world.

If 100% of a population have no problem with something, then for them it is not a problem.

If one person has a problem, then it is his problem. The 99.9999% who do not see the problem like this one person does need to know why this guy has a problem.

Do you know exactly what your problem might be in this situation? I am not saying you are wrong and "they" are right. You are likely right and "they" are all wrong. But what makes you right?

I am dead serious about this question - more serious than you might think.

Exactly why is garbage a problem? I have asked this before. If there is garbage outside everyone's house in the street, and people just ignore it and feel or see no ill effects, why do you see it as a problem? Remember that I am questioning you and you need to know exactly why garbage is a problem. General answers like "Garbage causes and spreads disease" are not good enough? What disease? Your wealthy neighbours are also healthy and have access to all the medical care they want. So what disease are you talking about? This is what needs to be conveyed to the community of garbage sceptics. How to convey it is the next step.

For example, for years in Bangalore people complained that it was garbage that caused mosquito breeding. In fact mosquitoes do not breed in garbage. They breed in pools of stagnant water that collect in coconut shells and old tyres and open pots or bottles in people's homes. (I have seen mosquitoes breeding in a fishbowl in a lawyer's office) Garbage is a problem for some other reason - not because mosquitoes breed in garbage. Once the government figured this out they attacked the mosquito problem using specific public educational measures that have actually worked.
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