I am not against the findings presented or the observation made out of it. But some of the words used are not correct. I am trying to change thme. Also trying to present an alternate view point with the same facts
shiv wrote:Let me stick to what I see are contradictions in the tenets of WU
The recommendations are
1. Children must not be made to work to earn a living - yes I wholeheartedly agree
2. Children must be educated - of course, this goes without saying
But, WU also says
3. men and women to have equal opportunity to work for a living - fine. This sounds OK at first glance.
But let me get back to children.
If children must have a happy childhood, they have a right to a stable family. A stable family means mother and father - i.e. an adult male and an adult female dedicated to looking after the child who will not work and will be educated.
Why do children not have the right to a stable family? You can give them a right to not work and say that "someone else" - parents/guardians/state will look after their education and safety. But why absolve parents of the responsibility to a child? How come parents, who are punished for hitting a child are not punished for the long term psychological abuse inflicted on a child by fighting, separating and coupling with someone else who does not have the duty or intention of protecting the child.
In WU "rights" are restricted to individual pleasure and self fulfilment. The child gets his right to education and right to play and not work - but the parents have the right to not maintain a stable family for their own selfish reasons. They are not trained, warned or punished for that as they would if they were identified as being visibly cruel to the child.
West do have the mechanisms to get people trained for family life. But in a free soceity things are different
shiv wrote:
As for the adult man and woman - they are needed for the work force. Their health and independence is important so that they can be "productive workers". Devoting time to bringing up a child in a secure family environment is not considered "productive work". "Productive work" is a job that earns them money and probably and employer a huge profit. This is a greedy short term view that is already showing its ill effects in societies.
It is in fact plain wrong. There is lot more freedom for a child to pursue his / her carreer in West than in India. About family work, I will comment later about my observations
shiv wrote:
Devoting time to holding a stable family, making adjustments in personal needs for the child and one's spouse for the purpose of providing the child a stable environment is essential for society. Often one or other partner has to stay off work for varying periods of time for this purpose. This should not be considered "lost work time" Bringing up a child in a stable environment is a worthy and essential cause and a fundamental right for the child even if this right goes unrecognized in WU.
There are rights and duties but there are few more important things than that
shiv wrote:According to sociologist Jill Manning, the research indicates p.ornography consumption is
associated with the following six trends, among others:
1.Increased marital distress, and risk of separation and divorce
2.Decreased marital intimacy and sexual satisfaction
3.Infidelity
4.Increased appetite for more graphic types of p.ornography and sexual activity associated with abusive, illegal or unsafe practices
5.Devaluation of monogamy, marriage and child rearing
6.An increasing number of people struggling with compulsive and addictive sexual behavior
The right question to ask is if any partner is indulging in the above behaviours would the other person continue the relationship. I will comment on the reasons why there are freedoms for doing so too
shiv wrote:In 2002, the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers reported the following as the most
salient factors present in divorce cases:
68% of the divorces involved one party meeting a new lover over the Internet.
56% involved one party having “an obsessive interest in p.ornographic websites.”
47% involved spending excessive time on the computer.
33% involved excessive time spent speaking in chat rooms.
The right question to ask is if any partner is indulging in the above behaviours would the other person continue the relationship. I will comment on the reasons why there are freedoms for doing so too
shiv wrote:It appears to me that business lobbies in the west have a greater influence than society or people on what happens.
There is a gun lobby, a beef lobby, a p.orn/sexual freedom lobby etc. These lobbies manage to lobby support for their own business interests over and above societal interests and people are fragmented and told "fuk society, look for your individual pleasure. You want sex, guns food" etc.
This, as suggested by those 4 videos linked earlier make a mocakery of democracy. It is ironing that this is the democracy that is being touted as "best for everyone"
In fact one could argue that Ram Rajya or rule of Mahomet were better for people under those regimes than this democracy.
I would not say that there are other better models, may be they are competing models. I am not sure about the virtues of rule of Mahomet.
Ok let me say about the Western model which is anyway the thread
One of the main suggestion is that western models allow criminal elements in the soceity. If you look at the statistics, the crime rate would be high than most of the countries. But neither the citizens of those countries nor the citizens of other countries have any complaints against them. It is always expected that the justice department would be impartial and the criminals are punished. Added to this the same western countries mock other countries with descriptions like "rape capitla of world". But if the statistics are to be believed, that is not so and the western countries have more rape cases per capita than other countries. So whats happening? Why is that so?
There can be reasons like there is little documentation or cases taken up in the third world countries. And so statistics are not showing the right picture. But this is only a part of the answer. Actual answer to be found is why there is more rape in Western societies?
Shiv earlier talked about the freedom. That could be the reason or actually the reason. There is lot more individual freedom for all the individuals and it prompts criminal elements of soceity and also people with suppressed criminal feelings to express fully using those freedoms. The Justice department of the western soceities are capable of handling all these cases and criminals get punished. If you look at the life of a criminal after he is released from prision, it is like they cannot apply for any decent jobs or vocations. If you are attempting to make it big in western soceities you need to be an individual where there are no issues like this
The third world countries also wonder why US people are worried about President's Clinton infidelity when they themselves are like that. But the infidelity is one way to pull a person down in US so that others take their place
So if freedoms are there and the individuals miuse it, then it disqualifies them to make it big. So its a way to weed out bad people out of the system. The visitors to these countries first see these individuals and they are impressed. No wonder people like to stay in a Western society. But always forget that these individuals are combed ones where there are no issues against them. After seeing this they clamour that this is not so in their home country and probably the reason is the govt at the centre state etc. But few people introspect to see how things are in their home country
In the third world countries, most of them ruled by western countries and others in the western influence, sees the western models and tries to emulate them. But they dont emulate them in sprirt but only in creating some infrastructure. But then they dont get the same experience and results. So then blame goes to the western model not to the way it is implemented
If you take the case of India and do a survey of senior government officers how many will come clean? If there is a sustained way of cleaning the system there will be a way for good people to succeed in India. Its again our inertia to do the right thing
But in doing so Western societies pay a high cost for family well being. Most of the individuals cannot even decide whether they need family and would look for arrangements outside it. Some do not marry and they dont have any children too. There are several children under single parent who finds it is difficult to sustain their life.
It is the byproduct of success. If you want success then this is the way. If you think that success comes from suppressing individual freedoms, may be that is not correct
My two paise. I am sure I didnt made sense. But just put my view point which is derived from brief exchanges from several individuals from both India and western world