Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1513
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Pulikeshi »

JE Menon wrote:The Sanatana Dharma is not an absolutist faith system. It is a relativistic life system. Faith is neither a necessary condition, nor a sufficient condition but it is a perfectly viable one.

In absolutist religions, faith is a necessary condition, and a sufficient one. In other words, faith alone is enough to be considered religious.
Just my opinions for what it is worth.
  1. SD is a action based, not a faith based system - it is based on Karma (action) very different from faith and belief.
    To clarify: one can commit all kinds of acts and be absolved of consequences by faith or belief alone in these
    other faiths or religions. in SD no such possibility arises, every action has to be paid for and enjoyed ;-)
    Further even the Gods are held to the same rules, even the Creator (if one exists) is not free of this burden.
    The misunderstanding of Karma as fate has perhaps tracked the decline of the SD civilization and colonization.
    Practically, this fatalism or defeat needs to be rejected outright and current resurgence needs to see the light.
  2. SD is very clear about the framework and the pramanas it rests on. There is nothing relativistic or ambiguous.
    This relativity business was a WU response to show up the "flaky" foundation of SD, but there is no real evidence.
    Every actor has to decide for themselves (different from free will) which path they will ACT upon.
    That the individual intelligence is given this honor is to aid evolution. The reason we are able to even discuss
    these things today is the relentless defense of the non-relativist and unambiguous way of life. We would be
    insulting our ancestors to suggest SD is relativistic. Sorry if this response is a bit over the top...
    All encoded non-relativistic, unambiguous laws are obsolete as the ink drys, SD framework understand this and provides a way out...
The Marusthalivad (Religions of the Desert) are not based on any pramanas. If one says Śabda, then it is easily shown to be hearsay by unverifiable authors, in a language that suffers low fidelity, the mechanics of translation and information loss.

Finally, Marusthalivad specify that actions are not important, your belief or faith is important.
This flies in the face of pramana based evidentiary approach of the SD system.
Only our actions can be judged, never our beliefs!
Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1513
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Pulikeshi »

There is a bit of confusion on thread after thread on BRF along two aspects:

1. The perceived, right or wrong, grievance of Hindus historically to just about now...
2. The desire to react to WU and other external influences, either by becoming them or rejecting them...

There are lots of smart people on this board and around the world who understand these issues at various levels -
Just one word of useless advice if you want it -
  • There is no way to reform both the nation-state of India (the legal and governance mechanisms) and the
    SD system. The mixing of these two has lots of odious consequences. One can only tackle either the civilization
    or the nation-state that sits uncomfortably on top of this foundation, but not both at the same time...
    This may make you uncomfortable or dismiss my point, but I seriously urge you to think why this is the case.
    Good news is each of us has then the luxury to pick one or the other to tackle...
  • There was no glorious past, other than one we can conjure, but there is the possibility of a glorious future,
    one that each of us can have impact on in our own small way.
Finally, pardon the unwanted advice - just something that has been nagging me for a while now.
csaurabh
BRFite
Posts: 974
Joined: 07 Apr 2008 15:07

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by csaurabh »

shiv wrote: One thing that western materialistic science of the external world never learned is that you cannot divorce science from life on earth and achieve a meaningful long term result. You cannot have science useful to man if there is no human, and you cannot have humans existing in isolation from other life forms and the eco system and environment. This statement has deeper implications that might seem apparent. In fact one implication is that we can never have self sustaining human habitation on Mars. The subject is OT here, but what is NOT OT here is to ask if we can keep the earth itself self-sustaining for humans and other life. Escape to Mars ain't gonna happen in a hurry - but surely there are lessons about living on earth that modern science, detached as it is from the "humanities" has not tried to address? Can there be limits on human life? Can there be limits on human needs? Would those limits be reached simply because the earth does not have the resources for human desires? Western science is not even trying seriously on these lines. There are lessons in the Indian way which I believe the world needs to learn.

If intelligent thinking humans have existed for 50,000 years, Christianity and Islam achieved dominance mainly by looting and subjugating in the last 2000 to 1500 years. Initially it was looting others - but now it is looting the earth because both religious philosophies and their descendants demand great pleasure in this life and nothing credible thereafter. So our entire earth is held hostage to a philosophy that has no idea where human life is headed and is unable to dip back 5,000 or 10,000 years because all that is "false" . Science and philosophy are interconnected - and English is not enough.
Very thoughtful. I am reading some literature along the same lines.

Here is an excerpt talking about the Ik people - selfishness and individualism taken to the end result.
The small tribe of Iks, formerly nomadic hunters and gatherers in the mountain valleys of northern Uganda, have become
celebrities, literary symbols for the ultimate fate of disheartened, heartless mankind at large. Two disastrously conclusive
things happened to them: the government decided to have a national park, so they were compelled by law to give up hunting
in the valleys and become farmers on poor hillside soil, and then they were visited for two years by an anthropologist who
detested them and wrote a book about them.
The message of the book is that the Iks have transformed themselves into an irreversibly disagreeable collection of
unattached, brutish creatures, totally selfish and loveless, in response to the dismantling of their traditional culture. Moreover,
this is what the rest of us are like in our inner selves, and we will all turn into Iks when the structure of our society comes all
unhinged.
The argument rests, of course, on certain assumptions about the core of human beings, and is necessarily speculative. You
have to agree in advance that man is fundamentally a bad lot, out for himself alone, displaying such graces as affection and
compassion only as learned habits. If you take this view, the story of the Iks can be used to con- firm it. These people seem to
be living together, clustered in small, dense villages, but they are really solitary, unrelated individuals with no evident use for
each other. They talk, but only to make illtempered demands and cold refusals. They share nothing. They never sing. They
turn the children out to forage as soon as they can walk, and desert the elders to starve whenever they can, and the foraging
children snatch food from the mouths of the helpless elders. It is a mean society.
They breed without love or even casual regard. They defecate on each other's doorsteps. They watch their neighbors for signs
of misfortune, and only then do they laugh. In the book they do a lot of laughing, having so much bad luck. Several times
they even laughed at the anthropologist, who found this especially repellent (one senses, between the lines, that the scholar is
not himself the world's luckiest man). Worse, they took him into the family, snatched his food, defecated on his doorstep, and
hooted dislike at him. They gave him two bad years.
It is a depressing book. If, as he suggests, there is only Ikness at the center of each of us, our sole hope for hanging on to the
name of humanity will be in endlessly mending the structure of our society, and it is changing so quickly and completely that
we may never find the threads in time. Mean- while, left to ourselves alone, solitary, we will become the same joyless,
zestless, untouching lone animals.
But this may be too narrow a view. For one thing, the Iks are extraordinary. They are absolutely astonishing, in fact. The
anthropologist has never seen people like them anywhere, nor have I. You'd think, if they were simply examples of the
common essence of mankind, they'd seem more recognizable. Instead, they are bizarre, anomalous. I have known my share of
peculiar, difficult, nervous, grabby people, but I've never encountered any genuinely, consistently detestable human beings in
all my life. The Iks sound more like abnormalities, maladies.
I cannot accept it. I do not believe that the Iks are representative of isolated, revealed man, un-obscured by social habits. I
believe their behavior is something extra, something laid on. This unremitting, compulsive repellence is a kind of
complicated ritual. They must have learned to act this way; they copied it, somehow.
I have a theory, then. The Iks have gone crazy.
The solitary Ik, isolated in the ruins of an exploded culture, has built a new defense for himself. If you live in an unworkable
society you can make up one of your own, and this is what the Iks have done. Each Ik has become a group, a one-man tribe
on its own, a constituency.
Now everything falls into place. This is why they do seem, after all, vaguely familiar to all of us. We've seen them before.
This is precisely the way groups of one size or another, ranging from committees to nations, behave. It is, of course, this
aspect of humanity that has lagged behind the rest of evolution, and this is why the Ik seems so primitive. In his absolute
selfishness, his incapacity to give anything away, no matter what, he is a successful committee. When he stands at the door of
his hut, shouting insults at his neighbors in a loud harangue, he is city addressing another city.
Cities have all the Ik characteristics. They defecate on doorsteps, in rivers and lakes, their own or anyone else's. They leave
rubbish. They detest all neighboring cities, give nothing away. They even build institutions for deserting elders out of sight.
Nations are the most Ik-like of all. No wonder the Iks seem familiar. For total greed, capacity, heartlessness, and
irresponsibility there is nothing to match a nation. Nations, by law, are solitary, self-centered, withdrawn into themselves.
There is no such thing as affection between nations, and certainly no nation ever loved another. They bawl insults from their
doorsteps, defecate into whole oceans, snatch all the food, survive by detestation, take joy in the bad luck of others, celebrate
the death of others, live for the death of others.
That's it, and I shall stop worrying about the book. It does not signify that man is a sparse, in- human thing at his center. He's
all right. It only says what we've always known and never had enough time to worry about, that we haven't yet learned how to
stay human when assembled in masses. The Ik, in his despair, is acting out this failure, and perhaps we should pay closer
attention. Nations have themselves become too frightening to think about, but we might learn some things by watching these
people.
Taken from the book "Lives of a cell" by Lewis Thomas
http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/cell.pdf
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

JE Menon wrote:^Not sure if the Brits came up with the idea, but certainly they are the ones to have transmitted it in a general sense - that "laws and morality cannot occur without religion"; earlier in the Indian context the Islamic rulers came up with the proposition that "laws and morality cannot occur without Islam" (in the sense of outside Islam).

I think the Brits had a more pernicious impact on the Dharmic worldview in that they generalised in a "secular" fashion the idea that "laws and morality cannot occur outside religion" - and that set us Hindoos off on a wild goose chase to try and demonstrate that we were just like them too. Understandable then, to some extent as they ruled directly and obviously. Not acceptable since at least the 1960s. It's taken some time, but I believe realization is gradually dawning, and being vigorously expressed.
This is how I imagine it in my mind's eye

Brits ask Hindoo: "What's your religion?"

He says "You wha'?"

Brit: "I mean who's your God? What's your holy book?"

Hindoo: "Here: 33 crore Gods, 10,000 books"

Continuing to read Edward Said it becomes clear that the technique used by the Brits as well as the french and other Europeans was to have "orientaists" whose personal experiences were recorded in "reference volumes" as if they were general observations of the entire people. If a guy saw a man bonking in public the textbook entry might be "The Indians have a tendency to indulge in public, acts between man and woman that are the most private of affairs in Britain"

It is not at all surprising that they got hold of a handful of Hindus and did a mish mash description of "Hindoo religion" that became the official version.

But what is more irritating is the way Indians were fed teh same stuff in their schooling and were told "This is your rekligion. This is what the Hindu religion means". So in a span of a few decades Indiasn were converted from a people who did not know what the fuk the word religion meant to a people who knew all about the Hindoo religion with its holy Gita and all the degenerate practices of its followers.

Now we have the 4th or 5th generation of Indians fed on "Hindu religion" as per original British textbooks written based on volumes like "Code of Gentoo laws" Caste, Sati bla bla.
JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7127
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by JE Menon »

^^Exactly how I see it. I do feel though, that things are beginning to change for the better... I hope I'm right. What's your sense of this doc?


@Pulikeshi
>>SD is very clear about the framework and the pramanas it rests on. There is nothing relativistic or ambiguous.

So, not subject to personal interpretation? If subject to interpretation, what do you mean by nothing relativistic?

By relativistic what I meant was that the SD has no "my way or the highway to hell" injunction as in the so-called "great monotheistic religions".
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

JE Menon wrote:^^Exactly how I see it. I do feel though, that things are beginning to change for the better... I hope I'm right. What's your sense of this doc?
JEM it is definitely changing - but I feel I must do my bit. When I look back at my life and the lives of my parents and grandparents and those of my childrens' generation - the latter now being adults - I get the sense that I, and my generation were the most deeply and profoundly colonized. The fact that so many of my generation can see the light is heartening. Whatever the degree of colonization of Hindutva-vadis - there is one thing that they deserve credit for - colonized or uncolonised - they felt that something was wrong and protested. Maybe some of them are protesting stupid colonized things - but that is better than sitting back and swallowing the shit my generation cheerfully swallowed.

I include Rajiv Malhotra and SB Balagangadhara in "my generation" although they are both older. "My generation would be about 10 years older than me and 10 years younger. We were shaped as much by events in India as events abroad. Post independence India needed the sort of education that my Macaulayised generation got and we filled up places in the west that were opened up both the the UK and America. The 60s were a time when the US was really a leader in many ways - but strangely it was also a time when Britain was leading the US psychologically and in some respects technologically. Britain has now sunk and the stars that a generation earlier than mine had about Britain have winked out. My generation grew up with starry eyes about the US - it used to seem like an ideal land in the 60s and 70s. The faults it had were hidden, but they are all coming out now.

Jindals' statement that "We came to the US to become Americans and not Indian Americans" is both correct and wrong. India gave Indian Americans a powerful identity and a home that would welcome them if things did not work out in the US (or elsewhere). That is such as strong confidence giver that few actually fail to do the things they went to do. Somehow something good, positive and comforting about home blasted through the fog of colonization, contempt and self deprecation. I have often referred to how India felt like a rock to me even if it was reported as being in flames on TV in the UK. One evening spent listening to AIR news and Indian classical/bollywood music would give me the strength to keep going despite being a hardcore Macaulayite with contempt for desi films in those days.
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Prem »

shiv wrote:JEM it is definitely changing - . I have often referred to how India felt like a rock to me even if it was reported as being in flames on TV in the UK. One evening spent listening to AIR news and Indian classical/bollywood music would give me the strength to keep going despite being a hardcore Macaulayite with contempt for desi films in those days.
New Macaulayite Macchars Making Music Again and Singing New tune.
http://qz.com/324481/these-are-the-ten- ... t-century/

These are the 10 commandments of Hinduism in the 21st century ( check the SDRE Photu)
The suddenness of this development has startled many in the West who had viewed Hinduism, from a distance, as essentially amorphous, complex, largely confined to within India, above all exotic, and therefore far removed from the swords and the ploughshares of today’s world.
That contemporary Hinduism might prove to be a manifestation of popular sociocultural trends in a country of over a billion people has prompted serious reflection on a number of questions: What will Hinduism in the future look like? How will the new Hinduism impact politics, business and culture in 21st century India? These are questions that are now relevant not only to academicians but also to foreign policy strategists, the media and business people across the world.
Although there is nothing equivalent to an Encyclical that has been issued by any reputed Hindu thinkers or religious leaders, there are nevertheless the outlines of a 21st century Hinduism that can be discerned through what appears in the India media, films, books and magazines, and from the writings and speeches of influential Hindu intellectuals and political leaders.Analysed through the lens of contemporary modernism as applied to the popular Indian culture of today, these outlines form something like an emerging ten commandments or ten guidelines of future Hinduism:
21st century Hinduism will be increasingly monolithic, i.e. a single broad thread of Hinduism will dominate across the different regions and communities of India rather than the multiplicity of practices in the past. In this post-colonial process, many of the subsects and parallel strands of Hinduism, such as Tantra, will be substantively discarded.
Hinduism in the future will increasingly seek to become a component of national and political identity, similar to the association that Christianity and Islam have established in other parts of the world. Thus, Hinduism will identify itself with a particular geographic entity—the South Asian subcontinent—and incorporate the notions of “us” and the “other.” :lol:
The understanding of Hindu scriptures will move rapidly to a symbolic interpretation rather than a literal one. To give just one example, Draupadi’s five husbands will be viewed as the five aspects of the perfect man rather than proof of historical polyandry. 21st century Hinduism will be receptive enough of modern science and technology to acknowledge that myths are overwhelmingly just inventions by creative minds, stories useful as guidelines for life but not at all indicators of past fact.
In this process, the pantheon of Hindu gods and goddesses will assume only symbolic significance in worship, a development already much evident in contemporary India.Of the pantheon, Ram and Sita will take front stage as the ideal for men and women respectively. Krishna will continue to be the overarching source of inspiration for Hindus through the Bhagavad Gita, but will recede somewhat as the role model for the average Hindu, reflecting the pronounced puritanism that can be observed in urban India today.
Ganesha will continue to rise in prominence as the symbol of the globally successful, outward looking, materialistic and self confident 21st century Hindu, as against the conventional image of the Hindu in the past as provincially oriented, inward looking, spiritually inclined and humble. ( Where is Wendy & Wiener Wisdom)
Hinduism in the future will seek to become the major basis for the conduct of daily life by Hindus. The gap between religion as practiced in private and life as led in public will diminish. The role of religion will be seen as one that provides guidelines rather than requiring conformity to practices. But 21st century Hinduism will explicitly assert that morality cannot be legislated, and instead requires cultural awareness.
Exactly following this approach, the Hindu woman will need to continue to take primary responsibility for family and relationships, customs and culture, and public morality in general. To this extent, the Manusmriti :cry: will continue to be seen as broadly the source of guidance, but not in any sense binding or prescriptive.
The relationship of Hinduism to other religious minorities will be based on a majoritarian foundation, just as Christianity forms the framework in the United States. Thus, Wendy Doniger and other similar writers and artists can expect increasingly aggressive opposition to their views.
Sanskrit will be universally taught to all Hindus and become the language for worship by all sections of society. 21st century Hinduism will recognise that the exclusivist view of Sanskrit as the property of Brahmins has badly damaged Hindu society over the millennia. With the blurring of its association to Brahmins and upper castes, Sanskrit will become the crucial and critical key to the blurring of caste boundaries and the eventual elimination of caste.
Much of this will be immediately denounced as extremist Hindutva. But in this process, it should also be recognised that these “ten commandments” are not entirely without merit. The perspective that morality cannot be entirely legislated, but needs cultural renewal, probably makes instinctive sense to Indians, many of whom have been repulsed by recent public discussions of the lurid details of the high profile sexual harassment cases, for example. Similarly, the idea that Sanskrit might hold the key to mitigating the worst excesses of caste has the potential to radically transform the discourse on that historical evil.These ten commandments, so-called, might be viewed as robbing Hinduism of precisely its tolerant core, its universal appeal and its manifold sources of beauty, and substituting in its place a dry, colourless list of prescriptions. But they also might indicate that the 21st century Hindu has decided that it is finally time to shake off the past and embrace the future. To the modern Hindu, only some of the innumerable trappings of traditional Hinduism may be relevant or necessary.
If, in the process of this refashioning, some controversies arise, those are only to be expected, would be his response. The new politics, the new culture, the new aggressiveness, may not be everybody’s cup of tea. But in the perspective of the emergent 21st century Hinduism and to its followers, the pluses far outweigh the minuses.
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12089
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Vayutuvan »

Jhujar:

The author Murali Murty is a Doctoral student at National Institute of Advanced Study whose founding people are
Founder Chairman J. R. D. Tata
Founder Director Raja Ramanna
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

In general - I find that all Indians are brought up with a sense of respect for animal life - but I need people to imagine an animal that horrifies and disgusts them - but an animal they have to study and write about.

So you are there - living among these animals - yet detached from them. You observe them. You note the way they writhe and fight amongst each other making the most unearthly noises. You see how they do not differentiate between dung and food and eat dirt with food. You note them copulating in public. You are disgusted by the smells. But you believe you are a scholar whose duty it is to study and write about these disgusting creatures. So you take your diary back home to where you came from and you write a book detailing everything about these contemptible animals that you have studied to "further the scope of knowledge and science". This book then becomes a reference volume. Anyone who might possibly travel to an area where these animals exist (or similar ones) will be forewarned and forearmed by your selfless labour of documenting these disgusting creatures. Your work is the foundation, teh sheet anchor that moulds attitudes of generations of people who are to come after you because they all study your book and then write books that ad to your observations.

This in fact is the manner in which Europeans studied the east - including India. Throughout every work there is a thread of moral, religious, racial and scientific superiority. The east is documented as a visitor may "document" the behaviour of monkeys. All literature that exists - particularly dominated by English literature and the literature of European languages carries this attitude of European superiority looking down on the specimens of eastern life - who have already been studied and codified and standard rules have been created to refer to them and deal with them. In our education we absorb all these attitudes and when we absorb these attitudes we too gain the feeling of superiority of the west. We to see all teh warts of the east - which we expose with western norms of humour and contempt. For example "monkeys" - the west has contempt for monkeys. It is always only the inferior idiot who dresses up like a monkey - like that guy in the image dressed up like Hanuman.

The west sets the tone. The Brits could be as racist as they come. they could have caused millions of deaths of Indians, but that is all forgiven and forgotten as we "agree" with them. We do not want to see our soldiers goose stepping like the Wehrmacht. Nazis- bad. Allies good. When anything is said in the west and promoted by its media -it carries a deep sense of truth that we are happy to echo, knowing that when we echo that, we are morally right and will have the support of the morally, economically and technologically superior west. When we have to say something against the west we face a mental block. It is jealousy or inability to differentiate good from bad that makes us question the norm set by the west . After all, we ("our kind") have already been described by scholars who have observed and written about us. We know we have faults. We know those faults were exposed and written about by respected western scholars and their work exists in the libraries of a hundred western universities. If those studies about us and our kind had not been done by those sacrificing scholars who observed us in our past, we would never have known our faults. So we cannot oppose the words that some from the west and we will not use our brains to question the most obvious inconsistencies and the most egregious statements as long as we can live in the comfort zone of agreeing with the morally superior west.

Western science has divided up ancient epochs into "ages" like "pleistocene" and "holocene". Today's paper has someone saying that we have now entered the "anthropcene" era meaning we are now in an age where man rules and make makes a huge difference and that this age started the day the first nuclear bomb was testes. The western cockiness in this is amazing - but no one is going to question it. All previous ages have been named retrospectively, looking back at the past. Now, suddenly, we have this idea that "Man, specifically western man, is the greatest and this age must be named after him and what he did in 1945". The best part about this is that if human life ends because of an asteroid hitting us 500 years from now this name will be totally fake. But it is a sign of cockiness and self aggrandizement to declare that the world revolves around western man - specifically USA nowadays

Indians will be the first to laugh if we talk about ages of man like Kaliyuga. Kaliyuga is mythology. Holocene and Anthropocene are "science". When an Indian says what might happen in future - it is laughable astrology. But that article posted by Jhujar above - all predictions. That's not astrology. It's logic. Mental colonization is deep and insidious
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

matrimc wrote:Jhujar:

The author Murali Murty is a Doctoral student at National Institute of Advanced Study whose founding people are
Founder Chairman J. R. D. Tata
Founder Director Raja Ramanna
I have been asked whether I want to become a member of NIAS. Maybe I should take up the offer.
member_22733
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3788
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by member_22733 »

shiv wrote: The west sets the tone. The Brits could be as racist as they come. they could have caused millions of deaths of Indians, but that is all forgiven and forgotten as we "agree" with them. We do not want to see our soldiers goose stepping like the Wehrmacht. Nazis- bad. Allies good. When anything is said in the west and promoted by its media -it carries a deep sense of truth that we are happy to echo, knowing that when we echo that, we are morally right and will have the support of the morally, economically and technologically superior west. When we have to say something against the west we face a mental block.
That is the crux of mental colonization. If you are colonized, you agree with your colonizer that you DESERVED to be colonized, you deserve to be shamed as and when needed, you deserve to be corrected by the colonizer as and when needed because you are so backward. That agreement is automatic (and hence its deep) and involuntary. The colonizer need not even be there for you to agree with him. He need not even have to corrupt you to make you agree with him. It is an automatic response.

As an example, when I was waay too deep in colonized territory, the first reaction to a scientific paper bearing a western name would invoke a very different reactions in me than a paper bearing an Indian name. Obviously I was a deeply sikular individual back then. Same with folks in media, govt. , schools, everywhere. This is why I argued in another thread that liberation from colonization is a fundamentally violent event, it needs one form of violence or the other to remove colonized minds from positions of power that are held long after the colonizer is gone.

The harm it does to society is due to the necessity of conformance. In a society you are expected to conform to standards that are usually set up by power centers. If the people who run the power centers are themselves colonized, then the standards they set will necessarily be colonial standards not much different from the standards set by the colonizer himself. They will also use the same tactics that the colonizer used to suppress any native assertion or revolt. Since they were themselves a part of such suppressive actions before.

Thus the necessity of conformance propagates colonialism in the society, in possibly every walk of life.

Sorry to bring in politics in this thread (but this is my last on the politics side of this):
Modi won the power on the back of democracy, but then the colonized are using the very same democracy and media to destroy any "native" assertion that non-colonized Indics would try. Leela Samson is the latest example. Unless they are evicted with force, we will not change much.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

LokeshC wrote: The harm it does to society is due to the necessity of conformance. In a society you are expected to conform to standards that are usually set up by power centers. If the people who run the power centers are themselves colonized, then the standards they set will necessarily be colonial standards not much different from the standards set by the colonizer himself. They will also use the same tactics that the colonizer used to suppress any native assertion or revolt. Since they were themselves a part of such suppressive actions before.

Thus the necessity of conformance propagates colonialism in the society, in possibly every walk of life.
Very insightful. And it has deep implications for us.

When you look back at a time before independence - you find that (I repeat myself here) the world was in a flux. Nazi Germany was breaking free from the shackles imposed on it. Italy had Mussolini. India on the other hand was under British subjugation. It was natural for Indians to look outside of India for inspiration and Nazi Germany was definitely an inspiration at that time. While some Indian troops actually fought for the Germans, people in India like Veer Savarkar were inspired by the way Germans were being united against colonial European powers and he indicated that in his speeches.

But Germany lost the war and the victors have done everything to declare the defeated as the worst scum on earth - to be condemned and mocked. In doing that the victors of WW 2 have absolved themselves of all blame for all the colonial excesses they committed and act as if all excesses belong to Nazi Germany and all goodness to the allies.

These are the very attitudes that we have picked up from our colonial masters. We hate anything that Nazi Germany represents. So we question Veer Savarkar's credentials because how could this man be good if he saw something good in Nazi Germany? We are programmed to oppose anything that we associate with the Nazi Germany and forget that they served as an inspiration when we were down and out and it is totally out of context and complete mental colonization to echo the western victors' line on the issue without analysis
Pulikeshi
BRFite
Posts: 1513
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 12:31
Location: Badami

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Pulikeshi »

JE Menon wrote: So, not subject to personal interpretation? If subject to interpretation, what do you mean by nothing relativistic?

By relativistic what I meant was that the SD has no "my way or the highway to hell" injunction as in the so-called "great monotheistic religions".
Again my two purana paisa!

This is not the real difference. In SD the underlying structure of the universe is based on Rta (righteousness).
Dharma, injunctions to uphold Rta, are coded in the Sruti - but is unchangeable.
The Smriti, cyclic injunctions to uphold Rta, are rewritten for each age.
In any case Dharma is coded and is quite unchangeable for a given age.
SD understands the unchangeable and ever-changing and how to handle the two, no one else figured this out!
As I was the original proposer of this eons ago on BRF - the WU and Wuized have petrified Smriti, whereas what is needed is a rewrite.

There is no personal interpretation - no unbound freedom for personal interpretation.
Declining through the ages we are currently at a "I am an Hindu and I have the freedom to believe whatever I want..."
This is especially so for WU adopted Hindus who trust in the modern constitution, but are not aware of SD's structure.
Like I have said before - SD is not about beliefs it is about your actions. You can believe whatever you want,
but your actions are in congruence with the Dharma injunctions or they are not.

Whosoever the actor (Humans or otherwise) - are either inline with the injunctions or they are not, and there is a
well established method to decipher the Smriti and Sruti texts and provide guidance if required.
Dharma is highly opinionated, categorized by actor type, hyper aware of context especially time and place, but not relative or ambiguous.

PS: WU Religious scholars use the 'moral relativistic' term both in ignorance and in derision.
My sincere hope this does not find support from our intellectuals.
JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7127
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by JE Menon »

^^Fair enough.

But then,

>>In SD the underlying structure of the universe is based on Rta (righteousness). Dharma, injunctions to uphold Rta, are coded in the Sruti - but is unchangeable.

Leaving aside what righteousness means in a universal sense, what are these unchangeable injunctions?
ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5351
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by ShauryaT »

JE Menon wrote:^^Fair enough.

But then,

>>In SD the underlying structure of the universe is based on Rta (righteousness). Dharma, injunctions to uphold Rta, are coded in the Sruti - but is unchangeable.

Leaving aside what righteousness means in a universal sense, what are these unchangeable injunctions?
Quick one. There are two other "high principles" of SD. Namely Satyam and Yagnyam. Do not like the word injunction, to describe them and hence I call them "high principles". We will have some difficulty in these translations as the framework under which we use these words are different from the frameworks where words like injunction were framed, for there is no top-down or organized authority to executed these "injunctions".

Another question usually asked is "who" decides these high principles, well it is "coded" in the shrutis validated by our experiences. We will have to take such 2-3 high principles and construct our frameworks around them. To me they are, Satyam, Ritam, Yagnyam.
vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by vishvak »

21st century Hinduism will be increasingly monolithic ..
The 10 commandment article does not believe in north/south India? More like their own projections on others. There seems to be no light thrown about who created mess of paki/bangla/goa/ over hundreds of years sultanate+colonial times.
ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5351
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by ShauryaT »

I would like to post this article here as a reminder of the challenge faced by Indian intellectuals.

The article below from the prism of WU based values and structures makes complete sense but the entire framework is set in a western narrative, regardless of which side of the debate one is. In the western framework an "individual" is the only entity around whom a state has to administer its laws and citizens "rights" being protected through the framework of laws and other adjuncts of the state.

However, what Pratap and many others miss to dwell into is, not a "rights" based framework but one built around our own experiences, which is a framework around "duties". Ashrama Dharma requires one to pass on their wealth to children before one dies. The obligation to care for elders is of Grihastas. These are the concepts that are far more amenable to Indian experiences and these are the one's that ought to be developed instead of the constant aim at copying the west and their experiences. It will eventually lead to the state being responsible for elderly care, as in the west and it does not just stop there.

Our constitutional framework is not suited for such an exploration, under our 1935 act. The onus is on Indian intellectuals to frame such a "duties" based framework, in light of our civilizational learnings, around principles, values and objectives that need to be gleaned based on past lessons. Where are these intellectuals?

http://indianexpress.com/article/opinio ... -taxes/99/
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

vishvak wrote:
21st century Hinduism will be increasingly monolithic ..
The 10 commandment article does not believe in north/south India? More like their own projections on others. There seems to be no light thrown about who created mess of paki/bangla/goa/ over hundreds of years sultanate+colonial times.
That article is not all bad:

Quotes:
Hinduism in the future will increasingly seek to become a component of national and political identity, similar to the association that Christianity and Islam have established in other parts of the world. Thus, Hinduism will identify itself with a particular geographic entity—the South Asian subcontinent—and incorporate the notions of “us” and the “other.”
Nothing wrong here - those are the facts
------------
21st century Hinduism will be receptive enough of modern science and technology to acknowledge that myths are overwhelmingly just inventions by creative minds, stories useful as guidelines for life but not at all indicators of past fact.
True
-------------
But 21st century Hinduism will explicitly assert that morality cannot be legislated, and instead requires cultural awareness.
Absolutely correct
-------------
The relationship of Hinduism to other religious minorities will be based on a majoritarian foundation, just as Christianity forms the framework in the United States.
I see no sin in this
-------------

I started off thinking I will write a strong rebuttal - but the article is OK and it would be a self goal to "rebut" the article.
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12089
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Vayutuvan »

Pulikeshi: I understand Rta to mean nature. Roughly, of course, as no exact English word can be found for most samskruta pada.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

If you accept that the origin of the entire universe was nothingness - or a single point and then creation of all things occurred in a "big bang" - or by perturbations and contrasts within nothingness, one can build up what is known of the universe in scientific terms. One can theorize that the bang created energy which condensed into subatomic particles or whatever - and all that led to matter and matter led to celestial bodies led to planets led to life led to humans.

The word "rta" or "rtam" refers to that process. It expresses what is and what will be and is unchangeable by us. The ultimate truth. Dharma itself has two separate connotations. One is the "state of being" of any object - rock or subatomic particle or tiger. The "dharma" of that entity is its true nature. It is a fixed quality that no one can change or do anything about.

Arising from this is the question of what is dharma for humans? One could go back to the previous step and say that human dharma is the "true nature" of humans, but then what is true human nature? This question plunges human existence into the realm of philosophy.

Hindu dharma defined true human nature as human behaviour that corresponds with creation and the order of the universe. The argument, in short is as follows: (my words)

Humans have the capacity to do anything. Be greedy, murderous. Selfish. Destroy animal and plant life. Destroy each other" etc. But if humans did all this it would mean bugger all to rta eventually. Humans would likely snuff themselves out, probably snuff out much life on earth, but that would simply be the order of the universe. The universe would continue - perhaps even with a much more sensible and "dharmic" life form somewhere else on some other planet. Or even without that. rta does not care either way. So humans are welcome to fuk things up but they only think they are going against the order of the universe. They are not. They are simply going against what preserves them and their lives.

So what should humans do actively to conform with the order of the universe?
1. Take action to preserve human society
2. Act to preserve life on earth
3. Respect the truth of the universe that is unchangeable

So human dharma is one of actions that humans should take in an ideal case scenario to maintain human society and life on earth. Human dharma has been defined time and again by various people in smritis and those recommended actions are not all fixed in stone although some are.

All Gods come after, and beneath these fundamental truths - although some fundamental truths have been given names of Gods - like the act of creation would be Brahma and destruction would be Shiva. The "knowledge and awareness" needed for the act of creation (big bang?) would be Brahma's female consort Saraswati, and the energy to destroy would be Shiva's consort Parvati/Durga/Shakti.

My two renminbi
csaurabh
BRFite
Posts: 974
Joined: 07 Apr 2008 15:07

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by csaurabh »

ShauryaT wrote: Our constitutional framework is not suited for such an exploration, under our 1935 act. The onus is on Indian intellectuals to frame such a "duties" based framework, in light of our civilizational learnings, around principles, values and objectives that need to be gleaned based on past lessons. Where are these intellectuals?
I do not think such intellectuals are coming out any time soon. We may need a good 20 years of Modi/Hindutva rule to even start thinking about it.

What is called 'religion' or 'culture' is really a giant scale social engineering system that moulds how people think and behave. Islam for example, is a social engineering system geared for war and nothing else- and does brilliantly in that regard. It is only when the wars have stopped along with the flow of loot, jizyah, slaves then it stops working so well. That is why Islamic states are in a state of decay. Another way to look at it is that these are diseases of the mind. Hindus are suffering from sickularism. Muslims are suffering from Islam. I am hopeful that sickularism will end in the next 20 yrs, but I don't see how Islam can be cured.

Another elephant in the room is that now a whole lot of young women have grown up with the idea that women are absolutely exactly equal to men in every way, not taking into account whether 150,000 years of hunter gatherer farmer life has exactly prepared them for the type of mental and physical stress associated with most jobs. That is another mess. Sure it has some positive results and broke a good many stereotypes but it has also led to a lot of harm. To paraphrase a quote from a website, women have sacrificed almost all of their real power on the altar of absolute equality. They have exchanged the good qualities of women for the bad qualities of men.

It may discomfort people to learn that our nation was founded on the wrong principles, but that is really the truth. Socialism and Secularism are the more obvious ones, but there is also the Macaulay education ( FAIL! ), the IAS ( the idea that one can 'administer' something while knowing nothing about it ), License raj, the Legal system, media, Islamic Bollywood and so on. We are still following documents written under colonial rule such as the Indian Police Act. Other systems such as reservation and decentralization of power to municipalities/gram sabhas have worked to some extent but have created problems of their own.

Most of all I feel like we need our own language. English is not going to do it.

It will take decades to clean up all this mess. Modi and team have done a very good job so far- Reforming Planning Commission, key economic reforms such as Land bill, labour act. , judges appointment system, and a good deal of work in reforming the education sector . But while political support is absolutely necessary, it is not enough by any means. We must all do our own bit and by that I mean on a personal level at the very least.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

csaurabh wrote: Another elephant in the room is that now a whole lot of young women have grown up with the idea that women are absolutely exactly equal to men in every way, not taking into account whether 150,000 years of hunter gatherer farmer life has exactly prepared them for the type of mental and physical stress associated with most jobs. That is another mess. Sure it has some positive results and broke a good many stereotypes but it has also led to a lot of harm. To paraphrase a quote from a website, women have sacrificed almost all of their real power on the altar of absolute equality. They have exchanged the good qualities of women for the bad qualities of men.
The worst part is that biologically women have a type of physical strength and mental attributes that is suited for their role in childbearing. And apart from just child-bearing, child rearing is equally important - so "family" and "home" become important. Modern "universalism" is driving women to become part of the "productive workforce" (paid slaves) as if child bearing and rearing are not productive work. Home work is considered unproductive. The equality nonsense is driving down fertility and making people do a toss up between number of working hours (earning capacity) and maintenance of population size and demographic profile.

If you look at old hunter gatherer societies, or even agricultural societies or even trade classes - women may have been "at home" but they constantly contributed useful "work" in terns of food processing, mending of tools, caring for the sick education etc. Pulling all women into "paid employment" and making human lives dependent on someone else' enterprise is what modern societies are doing - ensuring that women who have children or are sick or caring for the sick are actually poorer because they can't do "paid work". Poverty has been defined around money; money has been made the most important commodity to acquire, and the definition of poverty has been linked to lack of money. This is an utter disaster.
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by RamaY »

JE Menon wrote:Leaving aside what righteousness means in a universal sense, what are these unchangeable injunctions?
The unchangeable things are:
1 For something to be truth/unchangeable, it has to be Satyam, Anantam and Jnanam. In other words, only Satyam, Anantam and Jnanam is absolute and everything else is Jagat (Jayate, Gachate iti Jagat = Things that come and go, hence temporary, irrespective of timeline).
>> A note for scientific minds: If something is observed separate from the observer then it is not absolute truth but just controlled/limited perception/interaction of the observed & observer.

2 In the Jagat (Birth-Life-Death cycle); every action will have consequences and the doer is responsible for that. Wherever 'Ego' exists Karma will catch up. Even when when Ego is conquered, the karma will result in consequences; Its just that the doer doesn't experience the consequences with Ego/I-ness; hence is absolute. The consciousness of doer will reap the consequences; in multitude of lives & in multitude of forms.


Dharma is contemporary and contextual application of above two unchangeables.
JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7127
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by JE Menon »

>>For something to be truth/unchangeable, it has to be Satyam, Anantam and Jnanam.

What is the basis for this claim?
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by RamaY »

JE Menon wrote:>>For something to be truth/unchangeable, it has to be Satyam, Anantam and Jnanam.

What is the basis for this claim?
The proof of this hypothesis is Vedas, hence the term "Veda Pramana". Every Upanishat and BG (being essence of Vedas as culmination of different Samhitas) presents this proof in different angles; same as a scientific theorem can have multiple proofs. That is why Hindu scholars caution us against reading Vedas as any other book (learning something different from you). When you learn Vedas in a sampradaya (traditional teaching method) then you will become aware of this proof (which is nothing but Tat Tvam Asi). This is similar to what Shreemanji has cautioned us about modern education here (difference between 'learning' HTML and 'becoming/being' HTML-guru)

Pick any Haindava commentary (I recommend likes of Adi Samkara, Ramana Maharshi etc) of any Upanishat and you will get one of these proofs (and there are many).

I can take any Upanishad and provide this proof, but it can be OT or called Hindutva.

I recommend every inquiring mind to learn a Upanishat and its proof in a traditional darshana as an academic experience. It is a highly rewarding experience.

Read: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1784398
Last edited by RamaY on 24 Jan 2015 00:33, edited 1 time in total.
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12089
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Vayutuvan »

Here is a short irrefutable answer:

Ekam sat viprah bahudA vadanti

tat satyam
tat sundaram
tat jnAnam

The "tat" in the above is the sentence above the three lines. See the difficulty in explaining the above. Once one starts explaining there is no end to the explanation itself. It loses not only its sundarata but jnAnata as well.

The above argument is not all that different from modern day cosmology theory - the big bang. Of course, I am not claiming that sanAtana dhArmicA knew about big bang.

Sometimes people solve a problem by guessing (intelligently) an answer and try to prove it true retroactively. It may be that the question needs to be altered somewhat. This is a valid scientific process. Even a stronger statement can be made that this is a valid mathematical process.

1 .Make a conjecture.
2. Prove the conjecture.
3. Prove a generalization of the conjecture from which the proof of the conjecture follows as a special case.
4. Sometimes a modified conjecture might be proved.

Refutation works the other way. If a special case is refuted any generalization is refuted as well.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 24 Jan 2015 06:37, edited 1 time in total.
ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5351
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by ShauryaT »

I think we have to move beyond this eternality debates, ultimate realities, etc and use our entire civilizational experience and post 2-3 constructs based on which a new framework can be based.

Think of the words of the pre-amble as these high level constructs. Think of the constitution as an exposition of these 2-3 constructs. The words today are sovereign, democratic, socialist, secular, republic. One can take the articles of the constitution to test if in concept they are true to preamble. This is not about what is eternal, a constitution is not but should be long lasting.

What are these 2-3 constructs based on which you would want a redefinition of our laws. To ensure that these laws confirm to the high principles of a new preamble. Yet at the same time, provide a new framework and at the same time stays true to the high principle of our heritage.
None of the words today have that connection to our past or experiences.
Tuvaluan
BRFite
Posts: 1816
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Tuvaluan »

Enduring truths have to be associated with laws of nature or at least compatible with it. Truths related to mental state of human beings is subjective and not truths at all -- they are "the truth" in a limited context. Outside of hard sciences and mathematics, it is very hard to prove the objective truth of some statement that depends on some unstated assumptions that can be considered "obviously true" in all contexts.

Maybe there are such assumptions that can be spelt out but just declaring that satyam, jnanam, and anantham are obvious unchangeable truths is like saying that barglefluff, sploog, and hafnitz define the ultimate truths that cannot be questioned. The words satyam, gnanam, and anantham obviously refer to states of the mind that cannot be experienced by anyone outside the context of the head where these truths are unravelled, and are thus not explainable. As the tamil saying goes "sonna anubavikanum, aaraaya koodathu" (you have to experience it, not debate about it).

Throwing out words without background does very little to address the question of what these unquestionable truths are, and these obviously has to be something non-trivial that can be used to define what is right and ethical behavior under different contexts -- that is, if the eventual goal is to form sound policies and rules based on these truths. Maybe that is not the intent and I am just misreading what is being written, but just saying.

correction:replaced first word "unenduring" with "enduring", which is what I meant to write.
Last edited by Tuvaluan on 24 Jan 2015 06:20, edited 1 time in total.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

ShauryaT wrote:I think we have to move beyond this eternality debates, ultimate realities, etc and use our entire civilizational experience and post 2-3 constructs based on which a new framework can be based.

Think of the words of the pre-amble as these high level constructs. Think of the constitution as an exposition of these 2-3 constructs. The words today are sovereign, democratic, socialist, secular, republic. One can take the articles of the constitution to test if in concept they are true to preamble. This is not about what is eternal, a constitution is not but should be long lasting.

What are these 2-3 constructs based on which you would want a redefinition of our laws. To ensure that these laws confirm to the high principles of a new preamble. Yet at the same time, provide a new framework and at the same time stays true to the high principle of our heritage.
None of the words today have that connection to our past or experiences.
This is not possible until we explain the meanings of the words: "sovereign, democratic, socialist, secular, republic" and why they should be retained or discarded.

"Sovereign" means a ruler who is absolute master over his domain. It this refers to an independent state - I see no problem but there are some issues with the word that I will try and state in due course

"Democratic" - "people ruled" - no issues

"Socialist": Is this an economic definition or a political one? As an economic one it has its uses. As a political one it invariably means that the "state owns everything". In fact if you look at the problems Christian Europe had with "sovereigns" - a sovereign owns everything. A person who is not a sovereign cannot own anything. This led to classic feudalism. India was never like this. Socialism pretends to hand everything to the "collective" but the collective becomes the central state. So socialism is fine at a local level, but at bigger levels democracy is better. The words social and democracy taken together are probably OK

"Secular": This is a nonsense word. Pluralism is better, but the word "Dharma" needs to appear somewhere.

"Republic"- no issues

India is a people-ruled state where primacy is accorded to duties to family, society, nation and environment and no God can claim sovereignty over these principles. "Lords", "Gods" and "Divine sovereigns" cannot be cited as sources of laws to regulate or control society.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

Tuvaluan wrote:Unenduring truths have to be associated with laws of nature or at least compatible with it. Truths related to mental state of human beings is subjective and not truths at all -- they are "the truth" in a limited context. Outside of hard sciences and mathematics, it is very hard to prove the objective truth of some statement that depends on some unstated assumptions that can be considered "obviously true" in all contexts.

Maybe there are such assumptions that can be spelt out but just declaring that satyam, jnanam, and anantham are obvious unchangeable truths is like saying that barglefluff, sploog, and hafnitz define the ultimate truths that cannot be questioned. The words satyam, gnanam, and anantham obviously refer to states of the mind that cannot be experienced by anyone outside the context of the head where these truths are unravelled, and are thus not explainable. As the tamil saying goes "sonna anubavikanum, aaraaya koodathu" (you have to experience it, not debate about it).

Throwing out words without background does very little to address the question of what these unquestionable truths are, and these obviously has to be something non-trivial that can be used to define what is right and ethical behavior under different contexts -- that is, if the eventual goal is to form sound policies and rules based on these truths. Maybe that is not the intent and I am just misreading what is being written, but just saying.
+1
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12089
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Vayutuvan »

Any mathematical theory is constructed out of axioms. Can I derive everything from "Ekam sat viprah buadA vadanti"? If not, what other axioms need to be added? What is the minimal set? If one does not start from Peano's axioms then one does not have a proof of Godel's theorems. The question boils down to whether nyAya and its seqeuel navya nyAya are valid. Can we reduce Mathematical Logic to navya nyAya or can we reduce navya nyAya to western logic? If not, is one more powerful than the other, i.e. can one prove more theorems in one which cannot be proven in the other?
JE Menon
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7127
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by JE Menon »

>>The proof of this hypothesis is Vedas, hence the term "Veda Pramana". Every Upanishat and BG (being essence of Vedas as culmination of different Samhitas) presents this proof in different angles

This is not proof ... this is just a statement, another claim. Someone else will say the same thing about the Bible and associated texts or the Koran and associated texts.

Tuvaluan has given the answer I would have liked to give...
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

JE Menon wrote:>>The proof of this hypothesis is Vedas, hence the term "Veda Pramana". Every Upanishat and BG (being essence of Vedas as culmination of different Samhitas) presents this proof in different angles

This is not proof ... this is just a statement, another claim. Someone else will say the same thing about the Bible and associated texts or the Koran and associated texts.

Tuvaluan has given the answer I would have liked to give...
There is a self referential problem in saying that "satyam, jnanam and anantam are the ultimate truth.

"satyam" is the ultimate truth
"jnanam" is knowledge of that
"anantam" - is an-anta or "non ending" - boundless, limitless that which encompasses all of existence

If you believe it, fine. If you don't believe it one can debate it and prove its truth and if anyone needs proof in the words of a European, try reading Spinoza - it's all in there. I kid you not.

These are metaphysical truths that can be proven by debate and logic, but we need to define how Indian society moulded itself based on the acceptance of these truths. At one level ultimate metaphysical truths have to impinge in some way on human society. And that connection was made in Hindu society. In contrast to this connection between creation and life, let me point out that living your life today it does not make one whit of a difference to you whether you came into existence because of a big bang or whether some God made you.

On the other hand the Hindu view postulated that whereas human society (and all of existence) has come into being from these profound and logically deducible truths, it behoves humans to conform to certain unavoidable norms and laws that these truths place on all life-forms. The logic is that human life involves both misery and happiness and while some misery is unavoidable the overall duty of a human is to see if he can reduce misery for others while he seeks pleasure/release. For this purpose certain behavioural guidelines are made under the title "dharma".

While dharma is not imposed as a top-down law It is postulated that following dharma is unavoidable and flouting its norms will have long term consequences to human society and environment. Hindu theory does not debate and struggle with the question of whether or not man's actions can be damaging to society and the world. That is a accepted as a possibility unless man conducts himself according to the rules of dharma.
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by RamaY »

ShauryaT wrote:I think we have to move beyond this eternality debates, ultimate realities, etc and use our entire civilizational experience and post 2-3 constructs based on which a new framework can be based.

Think of the words of the pre-amble as these high level constructs. Think of the constitution as an exposition of these 2-3 constructs. The words today are sovereign, democratic, socialist, secular, republic. One can take the articles of the constitution to test if in concept they are true to preamble. This is not about what is eternal, a constitution is not but should be long lasting.

What are these 2-3 constructs based on which you would want a redefinition of our laws. To ensure that these laws confirm to the high principles of a new preamble. Yet at the same time, provide a new framework and at the same time stays true to the high principle of our heritage.
None of the words today have that connection to our past or experiences.
ShauryaT garu,

Please visit Bharatiya (open forum) thread. These discussions were held there. Don't remember if you participated then. It would be injustice to those members who already spent lot of time and presented lot of thoughts in that thread.
Tuvaluan
BRFite
Posts: 1816
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Tuvaluan »

The "axioms" of reality are likely to be staring us in the face and it may be based on obvious "truths" we all know:

1. It is an infinite universe in size
2. It is an infinite universe in time.
3. It follows from 1 and 2 that earth will be around far longer than the human race -- we know that most planets die in a few million years anyway.
4. The human race needs to follow rules that allow it to survive as long as possible.

Of course, the more fundamental question then is why should rule 4 be required at all -- my view is that the longer the human race survives, the more likely it is going to be able to enjoy this planet until its eventual death. But then if the human race ends up blowing itself up, nothing really happens to the universe…it will still carry for a few 100 billion years more whether we all exist or not.

So any rule or policy should have the property that fits in with 4, and this means that the rules themselves cannot be rigid and unchangeable but must change themselves along with the context of reality if they end up contradicting rule 4. If we view "dharma' in this context, then it obviously cannot be imposed top-down in practise, as that concentrates power at the top and makes it more likely that rule 4 will be violated. Just my 2 annas.

Just to emphasize what 1 and 2 really mean -- this is one of a 100 billion galaxies that have existed for billions of years, and this galaxy is a 100 million light years away and contains about a 1000 billion stars (never mind planets). All of the confusion abounds because our puny minds cannot really comprehend this vastness and draw the right conclusions from our insignificance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1 ... dAL48P5NJU

http://www.spacetelescope.org/images/heic1502a/
Last edited by Tuvaluan on 24 Jan 2015 07:48, edited 1 time in total.
RamaY
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17249
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 21:11
Location: http://bharata-bhuti.blogspot.com/

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by RamaY »

Tuvaluan wrote:Enduring truths have to be associated with laws of nature or at least compatible with it. Truths related to mental state of human beings is subjective and not truths at all -- they are "the truth" in a limited context. Outside of hard sciences and mathematics, it is very hard to prove the objective truth of some statement that depends on some unstated assumptions that can be considered "obviously true" in all contexts.

Maybe there are such assumptions that can be spelt out but just declaring that satyam, jnanam, and anantham are obvious unchangeable truths is like saying that barglefluff, sploog, and hafnitz define the ultimate truths that cannot be questioned. The words satyam, gnanam, and anantham obviously refer to states of the mind that cannot be experienced by anyone outside the context of the head where these truths are unravelled, and are thus not explainable. As the tamil saying goes "sonna anubavikanum, aaraaya koodathu" (you have to experience it, not debate about it).

Throwing out words without background does very little to address the question of what these unquestionable truths are, and these obviously has to be something non-trivial that can be used to define what is right and ethical behavior under different contexts -- that is, if the eventual goal is to form sound policies and rules based on these truths. Maybe that is not the intent and I am just misreading what is being written, but just saying.

correction:replaced first word "unenduring" with "enduring", which is what I meant to write.
1. Hard Science itself is changing as humans find new Truths about nature (as they call it). Truth is truth whether it is proven using experiment A (Math) or B (Physical experiment) or C (Thought experiment). Mathematical proves themselves start with basic axioms to prove more complex realities. In my example, the observer/you is the first axiom. People get tangled because I am not using Latin letters and instead am using Sanskrit words.

2. Satyam, Anantam and Jnanam are no different from Consciousness>Energy>Matter (in all its infinite forms), infinity etc as people use in science and mathematics field. It is similar to real numbers being defined as something that starts in observable reality but strech into infinity which is non-observable.

3. As science and math have its only symbolic language, Vedic proofs have their own symbols, axioms and theorems.

The issue is probably people's ignorance about Vedic symbols and axioms. This one can understand. One must be willing to learn these symbols and axioms to learn Vedic proofs.

But asking someone to explain Vedic proofs using scientific symbols is same as asking someone to explain science using plain English.

P.S: I was answering JEM's question on Hinduism. But it seems you and ShauryaT are trying to take the discussion toward developing a Hindu Constitution a.k.a New Dharma Shastra. Bji and I tried to do that a few years ago in (deleted) civilizational thread. Then RajeshA, Atri, Agnimitra & Harbans Ji et are trying to do that in Bharatiya thread for past couple of years. I wish you the best in your pursuit.
Last edited by RamaY on 24 Jan 2015 07:52, edited 2 times in total.
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12089
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Vayutuvan »

3 does not follow from 1 and 2. Either you make it an axiom or you don't need it since it can be derived from 1 and 2. As for 4 why? Are you making it an axiom because you are human? Why the antropocentrism? May be it is irrelevant whether humans survive or not in the larger scheme of things.

By the way all those quantifications do not really answer the fundamental question of why human beings need to work in their self-interest.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 24 Jan 2015 10:00, edited 1 time in total.
Tuvaluan
BRFite
Posts: 1816
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Tuvaluan »

matrimc wrote:3 does not follow from 1 and 2. Either you make it an axiom or you dud rad it since it can be derived from 1 and 2. For 4 why? Are you making it an axiom because you are human? Why the antropocentrism? May be it is irrelevant whether humans survive or not in the larger scheme of things.

Only 1 and 2 are axioms and 3 is based on human knowledge at this time -- 4 is just conjecture as to the possible lessons from 1 and 2 and 3, and you are right, I should say it is not just humans that are important but the entire system that allows earth to be in shape so life can thrive…why? just because…if it doesn't it is no big deal either way. Nothing really matters.
Last edited by Tuvaluan on 24 Jan 2015 08:03, edited 3 times in total.
Tuvaluan
BRFite
Posts: 1816
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by Tuvaluan »

The word "proof" is being bandied about quite arbitrarily -- mathematical proofs are derived from the fundamental axioms that construct a frame work and other "truths" that can be derived from these axioms --- and this "proof" has a very specific meaning in a specific context set by the axioms. A simple "truth" like "parallel lines never meet" is false when you switch from euclidean geometry to spherical geometry, and this is the case where we can precisely define axioms, unlike reality which more complex and messy.

Reality is different for every person, so what seems like an obvious assumption to one person will not be obvious to a different person raised in a different reality. Anyone who pretends that some text contains truth that deals with all these realities will have do a lot better than pretend that the proof exists but is a deep sekrit that can only be figured out by people delve into it…sounds a lot like the bozos who come around and tell me that I really need to read the text of religion X to understand "truth" as revealed by someone who created a billion trillion stars spanning all of space and time on a lazy weekend.

If the truth were actually in any text, there should not be much of a problem writing it out and spelling out the contours of this "universal truth" as explained by the text…and maybe there are such truths, but just throwing out random phrases and words and making claims about their truthiness will not help convince people of the usefulness of the idea or thought process.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Western Universalism - what's the big deal?

Post by shiv »

matrimc wrote:May be it is irrelevant whether humans survive or not in the larger scheme of things.
It probably is.

We can take this line of reasoning further. Why is an individual alive? Why do I or you stay alive at all? Why not just die. Stop eating. Stop doing all the things that you never asked to do like breathe, drink, eat etc?

It turns out that once you are born there are things that keep you alive even before you can reason out why you are doing those things. That does not mean that those things are "right". Maybe it is all pointless.

Then again, my individual view, or yours, need not be the only decider. there may be others who feel it is right to live. And still others who feel that God made them to live and be selfish. Is it possible to reconcile all these impressions of life and reach one universal conclusion about what is right for life?

It turns out that there is a paradox. While everyone dies inevitably and unavoidably, everyone who is born seems to want to live as long as he can. Should one aspire to simply accept the end result and die right away or go with one's senses and try to live? There is a definite Hindu aspect to the answer and there are answers from other religions as well.
Post Reply