Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul 2014

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby sunnyP » 09 Oct 2014 18:38

India warns Pakistan of high price after more fighting in Kashmir


Pakistan's Major General Khan Tahir Javed Khan, responsible for the section of the border where the violence has broken out, said that India had fired 20,000 shells so far this year, compared to just 200 in 2012.

He also said he had been trying to meet his Indian counterpart since the exchanges of fire began, but they would not return his calls.


http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/10/0 ... AN20141009

So they start the firing then when things start to go against them they want to talk?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby Abhi_G » 09 Oct 2014 18:41

Hakim Saab is also commenting on the article.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby Shrinivasan » 09 Oct 2014 18:42

Modi and Doval have played this out multiple times... Please listed to couple of speaches by Doval Sahab before becoming NSA. These guys prepared for a situation like this.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby CRamS » 09 Oct 2014 18:47

JwalaMukhiJi/KLNMurthyJi,

Not even for a nanosecond am I second guessing ModiJi's strategy. This game has to change, and he set it motion to do so. I was just wondering as to what would be the longer terms game plan. Both operationally and strategically, thats all. But it maybe too early to speculate all that.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby Shrinivasan » 09 Oct 2014 19:00

CRamS wrote:JwalaMukhiJi/KLNMurthyJi,

Not even for a nanosecond am I second guessing ModiJi's strategy. This game has to change, and he set it motion to do so. I was just wondering as to what would be the longer terms game plan. Both operationally and strategically, thats all. But it maybe too early to speculate all that.

CRAMs, couple of Prestitutes kept asking Jet-Li about his strategy... Visibly annoyed, he brushed them aside as "I will not be talking about our strategies and let it out here", have you noticed there ar absolutely no leaks... No 1-1 interviews. Not even election Rhetoric. All thag we got are...
- a sentence from Modi that evrything with become fine soon.
- a sentence from Rajnath Singh that Modi has laid out the broad strategy
- a press conference by Jet-Li to announce he is firmly in control of the situation

People like Jitendra Singh or Kiren Renju were visiting the front lines to meet displaced people as well as BSF. Even loose canons like Abdhullas have been reined in... Bharka Mutt is busy interviewing Poonam Mahajan. Next she will do a cookery show perhaps?????

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby Raja Ram » 09 Oct 2014 19:45

I had a feeling that it was going to be different right from the time when there was an attack in Herat on our Consulate on the day of the swearing In. It was reported then that Modi, at that time PM in waiting, called up and spoke to people there and took a briefing.

But it would not be right to assume that this response is purely due to Modi. If you recall, even during the last days of Anthony and Bikram Singh, there was an exercise to put in place a system of response that enabled Operational Level commands to do certain things. The professional force, that is Indian Army had worked on the same over a period in time and I am guessing they were clearly drawn up response plans.

So from a professional angle it was possible that there was a clearance to draw up a response plan that was devoid of any geo political considerations during the last days of the previous administration. What is probably new is that the professionals were allowed to do what is needed with a clear enunciated framework. They were asked to execute the plans without any micro management or second guessing.

Second, what is new is probably an integrated multi level monitoring and management with the apex point being the PMO, possibly under the NSA. There was probably representation from Intelligence Services, Armed Forces, Home Ministry and the MEA. And this integrated approach was probably coordinated and carried through right down to the operational theaters.

Which means a lot of things. That there was multiple inputs getting in and managed all the way up with a minute by minute oversight on what was happening. That the calibration and escalation of the response was monitored. The international fall out, perception management and media management has been done very tightly.

Hence there has been less visibility and the fact that the response has been massive is only evident from the kind of reaction that is coming from the other side from strong wailing for international intervention, to criticism of NS and the wild mood swing from threats (by Mush and Jehadi Hafez) to bravado to pleading for ending this by the PA.

The question of Pakistan's ability to sustain. I don't think they can go on beyond a few weeks if this level of sustained battering is administered. The blow back has to be through an attempt by the so called non-state actors to do a spectacular assault. But this response would also be examined by the PA leadership very carefully. Because if there is such an attempt they can be assured of a disproportinate beating by an assertive GOI that seems to have made it clear to international powers that India will not hesitate to do so. The PA will have to factor in the seeming inability of the benefactors to step in and put pressure on India.

I believe that if the back down happens then it will be the PA that will have to do so and that is what possibly NS is secretly wishing for as well. By starting this Pakistan has once again miscalculated.

We are in for a couple of interesting weeks next.

As usual my ramble. Take it for what it is worth.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby Anujan » 09 Oct 2014 19:55

Praveen Swami has written an article on how it was all one huge misunderstanding onlee due to a minor bush fire near a BSF post. Remember his grandmother story from the last flare up?

My reading of the tea leaves is as follows: Pakistan was essentially doing terror tactics on the border. Shooting at BSF posts and providing covering fire for infiltration is one thing, but their border action teams started setting up ambushes on our patrols. In one incident sleeping soldiers were killed. In another incident a couple were beheaded. This time apparently 2 IEDs were detonated several meters inside indian territory and 2 Jawans died. So Paki army is doing what they do best: Terrorism. If they cant get people in to attack JK and Mumbai, they do it themselves in the border.

Probably our armed forces have had enough of this, and is responding to terrorism how civilized nations do. With guns from professionals. I wish for peace between India and Pakistan at the border. After all it is the poor villagers at the border and the Jawans who are paying the price. But those terrorist Mofos should be taught a lesson on why terrorism is unacceptable.

And yes, speeding up procurement of 155mm tube artillery will help convince them.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby KLNMurthy » 09 Oct 2014 19:55

CRamS wrote:JwalaMukhiJi/KLNMurthyJi,

Not even for a nanosecond am I second guessing ModiJi's strategy. This game has to change, and he set it motion to do so. I was just wondering as to what would be the longer terms game plan. Both operationally and strategically, thats all. But it maybe too early to speculate all that.


I think Modi has made his approach very plain, in his many campaign speeches as well as in post-election statements. There is no mystery, we just have to listen and assume he is stating what is actually on his mind:

1. Never be an aggressor, but never allow anyone to stare India down
2. Develop, improve, and make India a better country
3. Bring out universal values of Indian culture and free up Indians to own those values.
4. Based on those universal values, be always prepared and open to co-operating with anyone in constructive endeavors.

1 implicitly means we don't try to control anyone or make them "do" anything our way. We will be fine as long as they don't try to put us down, in which case they will be made to pay a price.

This approach defines his strategy for Pakistan as well as the rest of the world, including USA, China, news traders, or whoever. Everything else is operational detail.

It means that bad behavior by Pakistan will draw a suitable response calibrated to encourage the correcting of that bad behavior--as one might do with a toddler having a tantrum; e.g., the foreign secretary talks cancellation and now the "cancellation" of flag meeting. The government will have no interest in speculation over Pakistan's internal compulsions (and implicit alibi-making for such behavior) which makes it act in this way; such things will be left to the media, unlike during the Vajpayee administration--recall that during Kargil, George Fernandes was speculating that Badmash was probably blameless, and it was the military which was acting on its own. It would also have no interest in the innate character of Pakistan, its people, Islam, or a host of other things. It leaves those things to "the experts". Note the refusal to deal with the question in Modi's Zakaria interview.

It also sets positive expectations: Modi's statement to Zakaria about Indian Muslims' patriotism, as well as his statement to CFR about China's ancient and sensible civilization which would not like to get itself isolated--have to be seen in this light.

This approach and strategy won't satisfy everyone--I, for one, think there should be more aggression against evil forces. But Modi is the leader, and he is a leader who relentlessly focusses on the positive aspect of things. So, too bad for people like me. At least there is clarity and steadfastness of purpose, and focus on positive accomplishment.

What happens when the positive expectations are not met? Again, Modi's own statements give a clue. He is avowedly an optimist, a man who plans for success and doesn't worry overmuch about failure. That is the "gamble" of his administration--enough good things, green shoots will happen that those failing to meet positive expectations will simply be sidelined, and the national enterprise will simply go on towards its destiny.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby KLNMurthy » 09 Oct 2014 20:09

Raja Ram wrote:...
The question of Pakistan's ability to sustain. I don't think they can go on beyond a few weeks if this level of sustained battering is administered. The blow back has to be through an attempt by the so called non-state actors to do a spectacular assault. But this response would also be examined by the PA leadership very carefully. Because if there is such an attempt they can be assured of a disproportinate beating by an assertive GOI that seems to have made it clear to international powers that India will not hesitate to do so. The PA will have to factor in the seeming inability of the benefactors to step in and put pressure on India.

I believe that if the back down happens then it will be the PA that will have to do so and that is what possibly NS is secretly wishing for as well. By starting this Pakistan has once again miscalculated.

We are in for a couple of interesting weeks next.

As usual my ramble. Take it for what it is worth.


The current escalation follows the Kargil pattern:

1. Start something tactically brilliant, expect the usual dozier-flinging ballroom dance and the payoff of "internationalizing" as well as echandee gain.
2. Get an unexpectedly stern response.
3. Bring out civilian mouthpieces, whining about India "not being responsible." This is the playground equivalent of the bully, when confronted, saying, "arre bhy you are taking so seriously, cool down onlee."
4. Realize that it is not just posturing by India and look for a downhill-skiing path.

1-3 have happened, Modi is expecting 4 to happen, that is the "all will be fine soon" comment.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby KLNMurthy » 09 Oct 2014 20:18

Anujan wrote:Praveen Swami has written an article on how it was all one huge misunderstanding onlee due to a minor bush fire near a BSF post. Remember his grandmother story from the last flare up?

My reading of the tea leaves is as follows: Pakistan was essentially doing terror tactics on the border. Shooting at BSF posts and providing covering fire for infiltration is one thing, but their border action teams started setting up ambushes on our patrols. In one incident sleeping soldiers were killed. In another incident a couple were beheaded. This time apparently 2 IEDs were detonated several meters inside indian territory and 2 Jawans died. So Paki army is doing what they do best: Terrorism. If they cant get people in to attack JK and Mumbai, they do it themselves in the border.

Probably our armed forces have had enough of this, and is responding to terrorism how civilized nations do. With guns from professionals. I wish for peace between India and Pakistan at the border. After all it is the poor villagers at the border and the Jawans who are paying the price. But those terrorist Mofos should be taught a lesson on why terrorism is unacceptable.

And yes, speeding up procurement of 155mm tube artillery will help convince them.


Praveen Swami, smart though he is, gets lost in the weeds and the details. Sometimes, like other leftists, he makes use of the details to create confusion and distract from larger strategic goals and objectives.

The logic is this:

* There are details, as well as some kind of proximate provocation, like the bushes thing.
* Such proximate causes will always be there.
* But pretend that there is nothing beyond the proximate cause--so, there only a "misunderstanding" in the bushes, no overall enmity or overall need to defend against an enemy.
* It is a pretense and deliberately dishonest, because, under other circumstances, lefties will happily talk about "context", "historicity" and so on.
* The reader who is looking for answers but is generally unaware will get some sort of satisfaction / fulfillment out of this kind of article because (a) the reader doesn't really know what the problem / question is (what is the underlying disease of which this present behavior is a symptom?) and (b) the leftie writer states a problem of his own choice (what is the logical trigger for the present symptom?) and answers it (it has to do with bushes).

Presto. The leftie is now established as a "respected analyst" and "expert" on security.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby ramana » 09 Oct 2014 20:20

A_Gupta wrote:
hnair wrote:Thx A_Gupta, buggers have blocked Indian based IPs. Tried with a US proxy and it goes through


I left some comments there on Facebook, including one that the Army was lying to them as it did about OBL. This is a reply I got from a motorma Seema Munawar:

Arun Gupta you don't know Pakistan Army, they were fully aware of the fact that Osama Bin Laden died in Tora Bora. What Americans did was just a drama. So don't underestimate Pakistan Army they are just watching and waiting."



Watching and waiting like the two vagrants on a park bench in "Waiting for Godot!"

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby sudhan » 09 Oct 2014 20:32

Gurus,

I am confused. What are the packees getting at? I am at a loss here to understand.. I can think of a few rudimentary scenarios. Please feel free to poke holes in them. Or come up with more..

1) They want to oust Nawaz:

- Im Le Dim and Qadri failed dramatically, people are left disillusioned, Army seen as squeamish and indecisive. Need to restore manliness and restore echandee.
- What better way than the tried and tested "Provoke India and get our collective asses walloped, meanwhile Nawaz runs to Unkil to stop the carnage. Then when Nawaz comes back, declare him a traitor as the brave mujahid of TSPA were "this" close to conquering all of kashmir. Have a lambost cleaned and ready for Nawaz on his return"
- Start with skirmishes and escalate, target civilians, that should provoke India to come out swinging. And follow the rest of steps in page 72 of TSPA rulebook laid down by their chief Assclown, PervAss Musharaff

(or)

2) The EyeeAssEye is losing grip on the greener Jeehardis, should do something to divert their attention away from their own hairy backsides..

- Provoke India and after India's retaliation watch the greener vermin crawl out of the woodwork waving their AKs in the air and shouting slogans against the yevil yindoo India.

By striking the civilian population in India they have made their Intentions clear: Draw in India into a fight which will result in more Civilian casualty on the Paki side than on the Indian side (given their settlements are must closer to the border than India). This can potentially be used by the pigs as a bargaining chip internationally. But again to what end? In this scenario if all their prayers are answered and India stops hitting back and comes to the table, they know they can never even dream of getting any concessions on Kashmir or anything else.

Conclusions..

1. The pigs are clumsy and they cannot think straight and with the long term future in mind. They think with their kidneys and act irrationally to fix their day to day problems by their ever reliable 'get-out-of-jail' card , India. They use the card repeatedly without thinking about an exit strategy or the blowback it might cause.
(or)
2. There is something bigger afoot and the pigs want India's attention suitably diverted to pull this off.

Anyway there is no way I can see them come out of this self created mess unscathed. 1 or 2 with the new goverment packees will come out of this severely violated.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby Anujan » 09 Oct 2014 20:33

Aslam Beg wrote an article in the nation that OBL was killed in Bagram, his clone was brought to abbottabad, placed there and killed by Americans to defame Pakistan. He doesnt explain how a dozen of his wives and 3 dozen kids were running around in Abbbottabad.

http://nation.com.pk/columns/22-May-201 ... abad-House

Enjoy. This is from their chief of Army staff. What do you think random abduls on the street will be like?

Also this gem. They managed to involve Raymond Davis too :rotfl:
http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat-ma ... n_lade.php

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby harbans » 09 Oct 2014 20:35

Modi, Doval and possibly some other strategists have actually got Pakis in a bind. The Paki assumption was that just like firing in the air during marriages in their Barbarization (i avoid the word Civilization for obvious reasons) is the norm so too firing across the border if they face defeat in Hockey, don't like a Bollywood release, want to infiltrate terrorists, or if a Commandant is in a pissed mood and wants to take it off on the idol worshippers across. All these were the norm so far for the Ghazi across. India would fire back small arms ,max a few areas would volley HMGs or the odd 80mm mortar in case things were bad. Then they'd raise a white flag pick a phone and end it till the next time any of the above list were to happen. Pakis gamed nothing more than this as Indian leaders would restrict the Army responding with a degree of heavy handedness.

When Modi responded with ferocity the Army was caught pants down, the Political setup is pretty divided, they have a Kejri, Tahrir, unpopular badmash, a dynastic playboy cum buffoon, an Army with it's pants down in many areas in the NW, a Baluchistan in boil, beards dominating from Peshawar to Karachi..the country just didn't game India's response. The Army can't takeover openly, a next level escalation response will mean 155 mm shells pounding them that will make the leadership and Army even more unpopular. That is why the PA was desperately calling the Indian side..arrey yaar choddo. But with India not responding, Modi apparently rallying with nary a comment, it clearly shows Modi is far more savvy and has gamed this well beyond the Paki capacity to think. This will end either with the Paki guns on silence mode for many hours atleast or Dehati Aurat calls up Modi or something.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby Anujan » 09 Oct 2014 20:47

Pakis at a very basic level are rational. The between 2003 and 2007 or so, there were close to zero firing incidents at the border. The ceasefire held. At that time, we built a fence, and even though that would help us curb infiltration, the Pakis didnt open up firing at this scale.

Two things are happening there. First they are laying the groundwork in JK and in Afghanistan to go back to the 90s where they could have various yahoos, smuggle drugs, use the money to fund Jihadis in Afghanistan and India. The second is that they have been getting a series of musharraf kicking on various dabba-e-zabba operations. Their soldiers are asked to fight their own citizens and co-religionists. This is sure to put pressure on the Army. Their soldiers should be shown that India is the enemy and Pakistan is still fighting them. What best way to let off steam than kill a few Indian patrols in the border? Do not forget that Pakistan army is in a war against Pakistan for close to a decade now, that too for a few scraps of equipment and a few coins thrown by their american masters. That ought to be pretty demoralizing.

We have to realize that we are at a couple of disadvantages. We might respond in full force to the current provocation and Pakis might even stop, but they control flare ups. They could very well dig in, resupply, move forces around and provoke us again by killing a few of ours in the border. We are reactive in that sense. The second elephant in the room is that we do not have a credible response to terror attacks. Even Modi government has few options apart from issuing statements, canceling talks and shooting off a few artillery rounds.

Unless we develop covert capabilities and retaliate in kind, or come up with other clever ideas (I dont know what), I feel that we are still reactive, we still do not have options.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby Raja Ram » 09 Oct 2014 20:48

^^ crazy fellow that Aslam Beg!

What is to be understood is this. For India, Pakistan is not a priority. It is not of any interest or benefit. It is a reality and an artificial entity that is slowly going down. What needs to be done is to minimize the impact to India. Other than that Pakistan is irrelevant to India's agenda beyond a nuisance factor.

For Pakistan though, India is the priority number 1 to 10. Its existence is dictated by what India does or does not do it. If India refuses to engage, Pakistan cannot be held together. They need to have India as the focus point to prop up the artificial state.

I think KLNMurthy has got i absolutely right with regard to the new GOI's agenda with regard to Pakistan. They were invited and given a choice. Give up terror, let us talk and settle things down. Then concentrate on your country and economy. We can make things happen if you join us. Our vision encompasses growth for all and security for all in the region. Give up your irrational fear about India and secure your survival and future. If you persist with your current policies, then be prepared to pay the price. There will be no more patience and understanding extended but a response that will inflict pain.

Pakistan, true to its trait and past history, elected to disbelieve India and have made their choice clear. That is to persist with their efforts to dismember India. They have miscalculated once again and they are paying the price. Soon, they will run out of patience and their benefactors too will run out of patience. Without their support, Pakistan will descend into a civil war that will make Afghanistan's and Syria's look like a picnic.

That is what awaits them. India has to be prepared to deal with the impact and minimize the effect on our plans and goals.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby member_28797 » 09 Oct 2014 20:56

The best thing to do is capture 3/4 of Bakistan and push the cattle class poulation to a remote 1/4th corner. Atleast we can make good use of that fertile land. The 1/4th cartoons can live with their little caliphate and sing their "gazwa-e-hind" qawali all they want. Pakistan is our land after all.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby krisna » 09 Oct 2014 21:11

heart warming to read about massive response of IA against napakis.
:)

was reading the yebil brf in office on surface with the bold stfup heading , my colleague eyes popped up but did not say anything. he is from our friendly neighbourhood. :mrgreen:

the response from Indian side will be duly noted by saarc and beyond. This will have positive impact on India's relations with others.
as the saying goes - smile people smile back, smile with a gun they will fall at you from a distance (something to that effect)

napakis will run to 3.5 more often than not in the next 5 years if these continue in various forms of engagement.

8) chai pakodas for now.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby member_28714 » 09 Oct 2014 21:17

Raja Ram wrote:^^ crazy fellow that Aslam Beg!

Pakistan, true to its trait and past history, elected to disbelieve India and have made their choice clear. That is to persist with their efforts to dismember India. They have miscalculated once again and they are paying the price. Soon, they will run out of patience and their benefactors too will run out of patience. Without their support, Pakistan will descend into a civil war that will make Afghanistan's and Syria's look like a picnic.




Sir, with all due respect, Pakistan will not go away, neither can it be wished away. And all these theories about the breakup of Pakistan will just be theories. Pakistan will remain as a unified entity until India destroys it, irrespective of how much turbulence exists inside. Why? Because they have extremely fertile lands. As long as Pakistan grows enough food to feed its population, the existence of India will ensure that Pakistan remains as a single unit. And as long as Pakistan remains as a single unit, it will continue to hurt India, and not just through terrorism and force but also due to the fact that the South Asia syndrome will continue to exist.

When I say India must destroy Pakistan, we cannot do so through nukes. Nukes have to be what we use to finish Pakistan, not to initiate the destruction. In order to destroy Pakistan we need to starve them. And for that the Indus must run dry. And then they will initiate a nuclear war, then we finish them.

As long as Pakistan remains fertile, it will remain as one. For Pakistan, Allah, India and food is all they need to stay as a unit. When food disappears, Pakistan will too.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby Ambar » 09 Oct 2014 21:22

Anujan wrote:Aslam Beg wrote an article in the nation that OBL was killed in Bagram, his clone was brought to abbottabad, placed there and killed by Americans to defame Pakistan. He doesnt explain how a dozen of his wives and 3 dozen kids were running around in Abbbottabad.

http://nation.com.pk/columns/22-May-201 ... abad-House

Enjoy. This is from their chief of Army staff. What do you think random abduls on the street will be like?

Also this gem. They managed to involve Raymond Davis too :rotfl:
http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat-ma ... n_lade.php


This particular line from the beloved gerenal takes the cake !

The USA had been our ally for the last half a century and we also earned the title of the most allied ally and the non-NATO ally of USA, and yet we have been stabbed in the back and are being blamed for failing to protect ourselves from this friendly deceit.
:rotfl:

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby khan » 09 Oct 2014 21:37

Watched Arun Jaitley's press conference.

The thing that stood out to me was his disinterest in operational details. This essentially means that the PA is at the IA's mercy - which I am sure is giving the Paki's nightmares.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby Anujan » 09 Oct 2014 21:42

hnairogolis: Not to start a firing incident in Kerala border and all, but the paki army chief, the bad Sharif, does have a strong resemblance to Mohanlal. :mrgreen:

Bad Sharif:
Image

Mohanlal:
Image

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby hnair » 09 Oct 2014 21:47

#%@*%#$@&($&^%!!!

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby Gus » 09 Oct 2014 21:55

endhaa idhu..ban pannu saare andha aala.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby Cosmo_R » 09 Oct 2014 22:14

Anujan wrote:....

We have to realize that we are at a couple of disadvantages. We might respond in full force to the current provocation and Pakis might even stop, but they control flare ups. ...

Unless we develop covert capabilities and retaliate in kind, or come up with other clever ideas (I don't know what), I feel that we are still reactive, we still do not have options.


+1

You can't elect to field all the time. You have to get batting time too.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby Kamboja » 09 Oct 2014 22:18

So STFUP is proceeding along the usual ladder of probing/escalation that it duly follows whenever a new government takes office in Delhi. Diplomatic irritants (rubbing Hurriyat talks in the face of GOI), and now border ambushes, firing on BSF outposts, and targeting Hindu/Sikh civilians.

It's only a matter of time before they go to the next rung of the ladder, i.e. a major terrorist attack (probably preceded by a string of minor blasts across tier 2 Indian cities). I've been impressed by the govt's handling of the situation so far. But as Anujan points out above, we remain reactive to this STFUP pattern of escalation -- which at this point almost seems like instinct to them.* What options do we have in the face of another 26/11?

2 additional thoughts:
1. This may be completely naive, but in case of another 26/11 is it not in the realm of possibility to impose a naval blockade on Karachi? Would this cross STFUP's nuclear threshold?
2. *Given how predictable STFUP's ladder of escalation is at this point, I almost wonder if they are acting on instinct when they initiate tactically brilliant moves like this latest border firing. When rakshaks ask 'why', perhaps they need to consider the possibility that they are simply doing what they always do -- a la the scorpion and the frog. It's in their nature, this is just what they do at this time of year, and they can't even contemplate what another course of action would look like.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby KLNMurthy » 09 Oct 2014 22:57

Anujan wrote:Pakis at a very basic level are rational. The between 2003 and 2007 or so, there were close to zero firing incidents at the border. The ceasefire held. At that time, we built a fence, and even though that would help us curb infiltration, the Pakis didnt open up firing at this scale.

Two things are happening there. First they are laying the groundwork in JK and in Afghanistan to go back to the 90s where they could have various yahoos, smuggle drugs, use the money to fund Jihadis in Afghanistan and India. The second is that they have been getting a series of musharraf kicking on various dabba-e-zabba operations. Their soldiers are asked to fight their own citizens and co-religionists. This is sure to put pressure on the Army. Their soldiers should be shown that India is the enemy and Pakistan is still fighting them. What best way to let off steam than kill a few Indian patrols in the border? Do not forget that Pakistan army is in a war against Pakistan for close to a decade now, that too for a few scraps of equipment and a few coins thrown by their american masters. That ought to be pretty demoralizing.

We have to realize that we are at a couple of disadvantages. We might respond in full force to the current provocation and Pakis might even stop, but they control flare ups. They could very well dig in, resupply, move forces around and provoke us again by killing a few of ours in the border. We are reactive in that sense. The second elephant in the room is that we do not have a credible response to terror attacks. Even Modi government has few options apart from issuing statements, canceling talks and shooting off a few artillery rounds.

Unless we develop covert capabilities and retaliate in kind, or come up with other clever ideas (I dont know what), I feel that we are still reactive, we still do not have options.


1. Terrorism won't stop as long as pakistan and Islam exist. At best, it will be suspended for long periods of time. So, stopping terrorism is not a realistic goal; controlling and mitigating, yes. If that's reactive, too bad I guess.
2. Secret of pakis' lives is that they exist to lord it over Hindus. That means they have to have some kind of relationship with Hindu-stan, and it has to be a relationship in which they feel like they have the upper hand and ultimate say in how things go. Way they see it, it is a traditional marriage in which they call the shots.
3. Downside of 2 for pakis is that it gives the "wife" all the power, if the "wife " is strong enough and intelligent enough. As long as the "wife " has love for the "shohar" this is fine for the "shohar." But once the "wife" has no more emotional feeling for the "shohar" and instead has contempt, the "shohar" enters a living hell. His only solution is to emotionally detach himself as well.
4. Pakis are fundamentally unintelligent and stupid creatures, so they are incapable of realizing this and freeing themselves.
5. This model of paki mind, once understood by Indians, opens up many options to hurt and harm pakistan. To see the amount of pain we can cause them with almost no effort, please see the Brigadier 's Modest Proposal article which I believe is at the start of this thread.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby Skanda » 09 Oct 2014 23:37

http://tune.pk/video/2871153/when-muham ... in-gujarat

When Muhammad-Tahir-ul-Qadri Thanked Narendra Modi in Gujarat. Qadri is a RAA agent.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby Anujan » 09 Oct 2014 23:37

An interesting thing to note is that the border firing incidents stopped when musharraf was in power and had to handle massa. He was playing a double game, yes. By sheltering good Taliban, Osama and terror attacks in India, but probably came under political pressure by massa to concentrate on Taliban and not get into shootong matches with India.

The firing and border skirmishes started when Pakis got civilians in the helm, who'd get an earful whenever they took any trips abroad and the TFTAs were free to do whatever they wanted while maintaining vagueness about whose responsibility it was to maintain relationship with India and afghanistan. This started in 2008, and that's when Pakis learned to "manage" massa and tested limits. NATO blockades ityadi was started by Ashphuck. Previously mushrarraf after hearing the with us without us speech from Amritaraj wouldn't even whimper when drones attacked. Now we have bad Sharif.


This whole point of going back to the 90s with border skirmishes, Taliban etc started as soon as army lost power and therefore also didn't have the responsibility to run Pakistan.

Dictatorship in Pakistan is good for us. We should strive for that.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby svinayak » 09 Oct 2014 23:46

From a Friend

I was speaking with a Cricket player of Pakistani origin recently, while at a break during the game. He mentioned various juicy inside stories, not that I hadn't heard some of them from friends and colleagues earlier.
What I heard from this guy was how the Army ran every single venture, directly or by proxy. Every single real estate transaction had to go thru the scrutiny and approval of the local commander. Deals are made and wheels are greased this way. Most such Army folks know their kids future in Pakistan is limited, so the ill gotten funds find a way to Swiss banks and American Universities. It pays for the Army to keep the conflicts with India alive. It pays for the Army to keep Taliban alive, they share from the poppy trade booty. It pays for them to shelter Dawood Ibrahim, he finances most of the ISI "ventures". Such being the case, which idiot thinks "Aasha aur Aman" and such lofty dreams of peace in the sub continent will ever come to fruition?!
What exactly is the outcome from having groups of "Indians and Pakistanis" outside of the continent, while in reality the country of Pakistan is run by the biggest Mafia in the world, the one that can go to bed with the likes of Dawood Ibrahim, ISIS, Taliban and Al Qaeda, while keeping the country impoverished and India bleeding forever?!

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby member_27776 » 09 Oct 2014 23:51

If India needs to try something different to deter the TSP misbehavior from across the LOC, why not try to bringing back the Nazi style super guns. Get a few refurbished/modified 16 inch naval guns, mount it on railroad tracks and fire away. These guns failed in WWII because of Allied air power and the Pakis have none here. Just for the piskological and propagandu value alone this is worth a try.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby MurthyB » 10 Oct 2014 00:00

Anujan wrote:How credible is that screenshot thing? Who is the guy? Or is it just some chair marshal speculation?

If true, what did our brothers across the border do to piss our Armed forces off this much?


The site has been restored now. But I can vouch that when I posted that screenshot, it was by going to the site and taking the screenshot, so it was definitely hacked at that time.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby A_Gupta » 10 Oct 2014 00:02

From the Praveen Swami article:
The fighting may continue to spiral, and Indian commanders have warned the government that a meltdown of the ceasefire which came into place on the Line of Control in 2003 will hurt their counter-terrorism efforts in Kashmir. Fighting along the Line of Control, the army says, would make it impossible to conduct the aggressive patrolling and ambushes that have claimed the lives of 18 terrorists in the last 30 days.

”There are elections coming in Kashmir,” a senior army commander told The Indian Express, “so blocking infiltration is absolutely critical. Letting the Line of Control go up in flames will be a gift to Pakistan — and we shouldn’t let them provoke us into rash actions”.
- See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... 3tph3.dpuf


i.e., Praveen Swami's spin is that it is more advantageous for India to quiet things down than for Pakistan - there is no amount of pain that would induce Pakistan to climb down.

What do peeples think?

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby ramana » 10 Oct 2014 00:12

By hanging out too long with the Bakis, the US also have become two faced takiya scum for them.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby Dipanker » 10 Oct 2014 00:27

^ I would tend to think India has a big enough army to walk and chew gum at the same time. I am always circumspect of what Praveen Swami writes and question his motive.


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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby A_Gupta » 10 Oct 2014 00:29

Dipanker wrote:^ I would tend to think India has a big enough army to walk and chew gum at the same time. I am always circumspect of what Praveen Swami writes and question his motive.


Funny, "big enough to walk and chew gum at the same time" is the exact phrase that I was thinking as I posted :)

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby KLNMurthy » 10 Oct 2014 01:27

A_Gupta wrote:From the Praveen Swami article:
The fighting may continue to spiral, and Indian commanders have warned the government that a meltdown of the ceasefire which came into place on the Line of Control in 2003 will hurt their counter-terrorism efforts in Kashmir. Fighting along the Line of Control, the army says, would make it impossible to conduct the aggressive patrolling and ambushes that have claimed the lives of 18 terrorists in the last 30 days.

”There are elections coming in Kashmir,” a senior army commander told The Indian Express, “so blocking infiltration is absolutely critical. Letting the Line of Control go up in flames will be a gift to Pakistan — and we shouldn’t let them provoke us into rash actions”.
- See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... 3tph3.dpuf


i.e., Praveen Swami's spin is that it is more advantageous for India to quiet things down than for Pakistan - there is no amount of pain that would induce Pakistan to climb down.

What do peeples think?


Swami also promotes the line that it was a a misunderstanding (just as pak amby receiving Hurriat was jusy bad timing) hence not worth responding to. Pakis' biggest asset is that Indians don't have the fire of long-haul enmity in their bellies and are always looking for a reason to stop fighting. Swami serves this cause by giving that reason to Indians.

India now laid down a clear rule for TSP: they started thd firing, there can be no talking while firing is going on. The goal is not exactlh to make them stop the firing--or make them choose one or the other kind of behavior, a common error in the past--it is to show we mean it when we say "no talking while you are firing." As a corollary, we will fire back as much or as little as we wish, in retaliation.

I think Modi govt will be fine with keeping up the present level of engagement indefinitely, and ignore all domestic and foreign critics. It is up to Pakistan whether they will restore the ceasefire. India under Modi will be perfectly ok with whatever choice they make. What the bsf and army do to defend themselves, that's just operational detail.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby CRamS » 10 Oct 2014 02:37

Pravin Swami is a slime ball except that he is pedantic in his writings but at the end of the day, he peddles a combination of WKKish, Uncle lifafa, and leftist narrative.

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Re: Sunni Terrorist Fragments of Unstable Pakistan - 19 Jul

Postby Shreeman » 10 Oct 2014 02:52

CRamS wrote:Pravin Swami is a slime ball except that he is pedantic in his writings but at the end of the day, he peddles a combination of WKKish, Uncle lifafa, and leftist narrative.


The media's job should be to report the news, not create it. The opinion pieces have run out of propaganda value, and the media outlet that recognizes it (and can present the news in one languyage instead of thge urdu/english mix they put forth now) has a huge business opportunity. There is no lack of news -- face and page time to opinion is actually preventing news being seen/read.

The other idiots -- of any hue -- all face a sardesai sooner or later.


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