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Internal Security Watch

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby chetak » 30 May 2017 17:34

x posted from the political thread

Two decades after this letter, and little has changed. The State continues to discriminate between terrorists and policemen in favour of the former.


Ungrateful Nation: Letter to Prime Minister I K Gujral by K P S Gill

same letter here too

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/kpsgill/terrorism/97PM.htm



29 May 2017

Ungrateful Nation: Letter to Prime Minister I K Gujral by K P S Gill


Punjab Director General of Police, K.P.S. Gill, wrote a personal letter to then Prime Minister Inder Kumar Gujral, on 30 May 1997, after attending the funeral of Senior Superintendent of Police, A.S. Sandhu, who committed suicide, thanks to the harassment unleashed by our human rights industry. As we mourn the passing away of Mr Gill on 26 May 2017, we reproduce the letter. The indictment of various organs of the government, especially the Judiciary, warrants attention even today as we cope with myriad challenges. It would be pertinent to remember, and it was my proud privilege to state this before Mr Gill at a seminar during the NDA-I, that grim as the Punjab militancy problem was, it was resolved, not by the Indian Army, but by a Police officer of exceptionable ability and men of valour who recognised and trusted his leadership. As we salute them all, we hope that the nation – above all, the political class – will draw the appropriate lessons from this chapter in our history for other troublesome theatres – Editor]

30th May, 1997
New Delhi

To,
The Hon’ble Prime Minister,
Government of India,
South Block,
New Delhi

Dear Prime Minister,

1.1 I am writing to you on my return to Delhi from the funeral of SSP A.S. Sandhu. I have maintained a silence on events in Punjab for over two years in the hope that the leadership of the nation will do justice, now that peace has returned to the state, to those brave men and women who made this peace possible.

1.2 Recent events, however, force me to speak out now; a continued silence on my part would be a betrayal of trust, an abdication of responsibility. I cannot remain silent when the memory of the men who sacrificed their lives under my command is denigrated; and when those who have survived the greatest of dangers and made immeasurable sacrifices in campaigns during a virulent proxy war are subjected to an unprecedented and unprincipled inquisition.

1.3 Men in the uniformed services are bound by a rigid discipline that imposes a code of silence on them, even when they are subjected to the greatest injustices. It is a measure of their commitment that, despite the deepest despair among the rank and file of the Punjab police, brought into dramatic focus by A.S. Sandhu’s suicide, no voice has been raised in protest.

1.4 I owe these men a debt of gratitude, as I believe this entire nation does. I therefore wish to draw your attention, and through you, the attention of the Minister for Home Affairs, the Indian Legislature and Judiciary, to urgent and distressing realities of the Punjab situation.

2.1 You have most perceptively observed, on your recent visit to the state, that the battle in Punjab was the nation’s battle, and that, consequently, the entire nation must share its costs. But what about those who were at the vanguard of this battle? Having served the national cause, are they now simply to be forgotten? Or worse, to be persecuted with impunity?

2.2 You are known to appreciate the finer nuances of Urdu poetry. Ram Prasad ‘Bismil’s’ lines can perhaps best express the sentiments of the ordinary policeman of Punjab today:

Ham bhi bach sakte the ghar pe reh kar,
Ham ko bhi maan baap ne paala tha dukh seh seh kar.

2.3 For over a decade, to wear a police uniform in the Punjab was to proclaim yourself a wilful target for preferential terrorist attack. Yet thousands of men in uniform stood as a bulwark of democracy against the unconstrained depredations of the extremists. Thousands sacrificed their lives. Thousands of others witnessed the murder of their parents, their brothers and sisters, their wives and their children.

2.4 At this time, the actions - or the failure to act - of every other branch of Government demonstrated their abject surrender before terrorism. But officers from these services are today enjoying the fruits of peace in Punjab.

2.5 This is an old story. Those who do nothing, those who risk nothing, not only ensure their survival; they equally ensure that they will return to positions of power and pelf, their “honour” intact. But the best of men, who put their lives on the line, having survived the guns of the terrorists, find themselves targets of a sustained and vicious campaign of calumny, of institutional hostility and State indifference.

2.6 The ultimate irony is that the instruments and institutions of democracy are, today, arrayed against the very people who made democracy possible in Punjab. For those who were comprehensively defeated in the battle for ‘Khalistan’, ‘public interest’ litigation has become the most convenient strategy for vendetta.

2.7 The ‘targets’ of this vendetta are being denied even the basic minimum of an impartial investigation and competent defence; even the uniform and equitable application of peacetime laws and processes. Simultaneously, they are subjected to a sustained process of ‘trial by the Press’ in which utter falsehoods are reported as truths without qualification, even though the matters that are written of are sub judice.

2.8 At the same time, the doctrine of equality before law is invoked to incarcerate police officers with the very terrorists they fought and protected the nation from. No thought is given and no provision made for their security. These officers are assaulted in jail, and no visible action is taken against their attackers. The State’s mechanism for investigation and litigation is disproportionately focused against the police even as many of the terrorist leaders who inspired and participated in some of the most heinous crimes walk free.

2.9 It appears almost as if the State is discriminating between terrorists and policemen in favour of the former.

3.1 The question repeatedly asked in this context is, ‘Were they any police excesses?’ Only a liar or a fool would deny that random excesses occurred in a campaign of the magnitude and duration of the struggle in Punjab. Wherever such excesses were detected, action was inevitably taken. The real question is whether a strategy of State Terrorism was adopted by the police; and the answer is unequivocally in the negative.

3.2 The evidence is visible everywhere in the Punjab. The victory over terrorism was not merely a military victory, it was a moral victory. Nowhere in the world has State Terrorism, irrespective of how many people it killed or tortured, ever been able to extinguish an ideology as completely as the idea of Khalistan has been extinguished in Punjab. An idea can never be destroyed by violence. Blood fuels revolution. Each police excess creates new enemies for the force and for the State it represents. Police excesses of the magnitude being alleged would have created an ever-widening base of support for terrorism. Instead, it was the support of the people in Punjab that made the decisive win over the militants a possibility. Sickened by the extremists’ acts of senseless violence, it was the people who opened the floodgates of information to the police. The victory over the venomous advocates of Khalistan was a people’s victory. That is why there is such a mood of celebration and freedom in Punjab today. Were this not so, terrorism would still be an overwhelming reality in the state.

3.3 The police strategy against terrorists gave the latter four options. The first three were conventional measures of response: the possibilities of arrest, flight, or armed engagement. The fourth option was offered in the later phases of the campaign. The terrorists were told that, if they chose surrender, they would be welcomed and embraced with warmth. At first all surrenders took place in my presence and in some cases in the presence of the then Chief Minister. But after a while the deluge became difficult to handle, and SSPs were authorised to accept surrenders. The largest number of surrenders were before SSP A.S. Sandhu. And yet, he was a “blood thirsty man”!

3.4 It must, nonetheless, be recognised that the situation that prevailed in Punjab for over a decade was a state of war - a proxy war, perhaps; “low intensity conflict” as others prefer to term it - but war, nonetheless. The Punjab Police and various central forces were engaged, not in simple law enforcement activities, but a battle to retain control over large areas of the sovereign territory of the Indian Union, against an utterly unscrupulous and heavily armed enemy who recognised no constraints.

4.1 It is for your government and for the nation’s Parliament to debate on, and define, the appropriate criteria to judge the actions of those who fought this war on behalf of the Indian State and people. What you decide will have far-reaching consequences for other theatres of current conflict. A great urgency must attach to these initiatives, if future tragedies are to be averted. A delay in addressing these issues will affect the destiny of India far more than any other single decision your government may currently be contemplating.

4.2 Low intensity wars are presently being fought by our forces in Kashmir, in Assam, in Manipur in Nagaland, and in Tripura. India, in fact, is being subjected to a systematic and sustained strategy of destabilisation from within and without, a strategy that preys on every incidence of local disaffection; it is imperative that we should define a systematic and proactive strategic response to this challenge.

4.3 The low intensity war that took place in Punjab, and those occurring in other areas of the country today reflect a pattern that can only be expected to grow in the future. Unfortunately, these are still dismissed by the national leadership as ‘non-military threats’ and an ill equipped Home Ministry is required to deal with them. The result is that the Army is repeatedly called out in these conflicts to ‘aid civil authority’. The fact is that neither the police nor the army, by virtue of their basic orientation and training, are properly equipped to handle these crises.

5.1 There is another vital issue that I would like to raise here. In a democracy, the conduct of every arm of government, every wing of the State, must be subject to review. And yet, the conduct of the judiciary throughout the years of terror in Punjab has completely escaped examination.

5.2 What is to be said of judges who failed to consider overwhelming evidence of the most heinous crimes? Who failed to administer justice according to the laws of the land for over a decade in terrorist related cases? Even in a case as fully documented as Operation Black Thunder, where the entire action was carried out in full view of the media, not a single conviction was pronounced.

6. I urge upon your government to take up these issues urgently and seriously and to take necessary steps, in combination and co-ordination with all other arms of India’s democratic polity, to ensure necessary action on the following:

6.1.1 In view of the future threat potential of low intensity wars, it is crucial that a radical reformation of internal security forces be initiated, creating the skills, knowledge, attitudes and infrastructure necessary to confront this danger, and possibly raising entirely new forces to grapple with this specific hazard.

6.1.2 The parameters within which each agency of government must respond to such challenges should also be debated in detail by your government and by the legislature. The powers, the range of extraordinary actions permitted in these situations, and the applicable legal criteria and context of evaluation of these actions - whether these are the same as those applicable in peacetime or are to be akin to articles of war, or are to be redefined in terms of the new category of “low intensity wars” - should be clearly determined and suitably legislated.

6.1.3 Until the necessary criteria are sufficiently debated, defined and legislated, immediate steps should be taken to ensure that the pattern of humiliation through litigation and trial by the media is prevented forthwith. This trend of ‘punishment before trial’ must cease immediately.

6.1.4 Police personnel who may be facing charges should be assured a fair investigation and a fair trial. To this end, the State must create a fund to ensure that the best legal assistance, advice and representation are made available to them.

6.1.5 Police personnel under investigation or trial should be incarcerated only if there are sufficient grounds to believe they are attempting to coerce witnesses, destroy evidence, or in any other way to distort the processes of justice. In every such case due care must be taken to ensure their safety in jail so that the unforgivable incidents of the past are not repeated.

6.2 Lest any of this be misinterpreted or misrepresented as a plea for ‘immunity’, let me state explicitly that I am not asking for immunity, either for any member of the Punjab Police, or for myself. But let the investigations and trials be according to the laws of the land, and let the special circumstances that prevailed in Punjab be taken into consideration by the statutes applied. Investigations and trials should not proceed according to the processes that are being improvised from day to day to implicate the police in Punjab.

6.3 A Constitutional Commission should be set up to examine the records of judicial processes and judgments during the years of terrorism in Punjab; to identify the judicial officers who failed to discharge their Constitutional obligations, and to honour their oath to dispense justice without fear or favour; to determine their accountability; and to take suitable action to ensure that the judicial and criminal justice system does not collapse or fail ever again in the face of lawlessness.

6.4 As a corollary to the preceding point, a Commission also needs to be appointed to identify officers in all branches of Government and Administration who were guilty of wilful and gross dereliction of duty during this period, in order to ensure a system in which acts of cravenness are punished rather than, as is the present case, rewarded.

These steps demand the active involvement and participation of the judicial and legislative wings of the State. I am, therefore, taking the liberty of sending copies of this letter to the Chief Justice of India, the Speaker of the Lok Sabha and the Chairman of the Rajya Sabha.

Thanking you,

Sincerely yours,

K P S Gill
(Personal Correspondence)

Singha
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Singha » 30 May 2017 19:15

Prophetic letter...

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Karthik S » 30 May 2017 20:04

Looks like Zakir Naik has applied for Malaysian citizenship. Will extraditing him from there be easier than extraditing from SA?

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Supratik » 30 May 2017 20:09

This organized Islamist conversion business of women used to happen in WB. This has also been reported from UP specially western UP. Most of Zakir Naik's converts are women. It is a common practice in Bdesh and Pak. The story line in these cases is the same. Without organized opposition you will not be able to prevent this within Indian Union. Both Tapan Ghosh and Yogi use their groups to rescue such girls. You need something similar in Kerala.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby gakakkad » 30 May 2017 20:16

Karthik S wrote:Looks like Zakir Naik has applied for Malaysian citizenship. Will extraditing him from there be easier than extraditing from SA?


Has he not been banned from Malaysia ? Why does he need an extra citizenship ?

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Hari Seldon » 30 May 2017 20:51

'Terrorists in Kashmir will not live to see this winter' Army vows to wipe out militancy

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/kash ... 64863.html

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby sum » 31 May 2017 06:41

^^ Truely scary days ahead for the rurds in J&K. No more Ramzan candlelights/peace offerings etc.

Pig hunting seems in high gear and with routinue pre-emptive strikes on any TSPA-ian trying to help them from across the LoC, not too much help around either.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby svenkat » 31 May 2017 22:47

https://thewire.in/140978/k-p-s-gill-role-model/

Basant Rath is 2000-batch Indian Police Service officer who belongs to the Jammu and Kashmir cadre.

@KanchanGupta
This scurrilous attack on KPS Gill for waging war on terrorism is penned by a serving IPS officer of J&K cadre.

J Gopikrishnan‏ @jgopikrishnan70
Attn : @IPS_Association & @HMOIndia
Anything to say on this nasty article on KPS Gill by 2000 Batch IPS guy Basant Rath?

Rahul Pandita‏Verified account @rahulpandita
He has been itching to get relieved for a long time. I wonder why nobody is paying heed.


Basant Rath‏ @basant06
I have a low opinion about the IPS. Here are the facts.

Siddharth‏Verified account
@svaradarajan
Powerful piece on the Hashimpura custodial massacre by @basant06, a serving police officer who has a conscience, is outspoken & writes well!
Basant Rath‏ @basant06
Thank you, Sir. Thanks for what you have been doing for India's journalism. Thank you for being the change.

Supratik
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Supratik » 31 May 2017 23:09

Old Siddy is the agent of change? That exposes Rath's inclinations. Nobody reads Wire other than lefties. At least some people read Hindu.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby chilarai » 31 May 2017 23:16

Hari Seldon wrote:'Terrorists in Kashmir will not live to see this winter' Army vows to wipe out militancy

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/kash ... 64863.html


already hizbul #1 is starting to resemble taliban #3 :rotfl:

just need to keep the pressure up, all these terror sherror business would go for a toss !

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Falijee » 01 Jun 2017 05:39

Dr Zakir Naik: India to use diplomatic power to bring wanted terrorist back

Islamic preacher Zakir Naik, who is wanted by the National Investigation Agency (NIA) in cases relating to terror and money laundering, is seeking citizenship in Malaysia, reported PTI quoting NIA sources. Naik has been changing his base quite frequently after the NIA moved the Interpol for issuance of a Red Corner Notice (RCN), international arrest warrant, against him, the NIA sources said.
As per the agencies’ sources, the Indian government is planning to use its diplomatic channels to frustrate all attempts by Naik to get citizenship in any country. They also added that the Malaysian authorities were aware about terror cases pending against the Islamic preacher. Naik had first come under Indian security agencies’ scanner after Bangladeshi newspaper ‘Daily Star’ reported that one of the attackers of the July 1 terror attack in Dhaka, Rohan Imtiaz, ran propaganda on Facebook last year quoting the controversial preacher. According to India news reports, his present whereabouts are unknown . There were rumours that he was granted Saudi citizenship, but this cannot be confirmed . IMO, it is plausible that the Saudis may be secretly "sheltering" him. In the past, they had no qualms in granting refuge to tyrants like Idi Amin and former Tunisian President Ben Ali !

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Bhurishravas » 03 Jun 2017 00:54

Didnt know where to put this. Mods, please help.
Lord Hanuman is being spat upon and shoe patted in this video. High blood pressure patients, dont watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2IwcNU9QA0

IMHO, there are no more than 20/25% Hindus in India. The rest of the so-numbered 80% are either accidental `Hindus`, opportunistic `Hindus` or the ones on their way out. And that is why insulting hindu beliefs through beef fest or by calling a hindu goddess prostitute or the videos like the one above do not encounter the resistance that it would have if Hindus were truly in majority in India.
As `hindus on their way out` grow in strength, we may see more disturbances in the country than we are doing today.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Gagan » 03 Jun 2017 01:01

How will he get to Malaysia from KSA hain ji? Overfly India?
:twisted:

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Rudradev » 03 Jun 2017 01:09

Bhurishravas wrote:Didnt know where to put this. Mods, please help.
Lord Hanuman is being spat upon and shoe patted in this video. High blood pressure patients, dont watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2IwcNU9QA0

IMHO, there are no more than 20/25% Hindus in India. The rest of the so-numbered 80% are either accidental `Hindus`, opportunistic `Hindus` or the ones on their way out. And that is why insulting hindu beliefs through beef fest or by calling a hindu goddess prostitute or the videos like the one above do not encounter the resistance that it would have if Hindus were truly in majority in India.
As `hindus on their way out` grow in strength, we may see more disturbances in the country than we are doing today.


Keep a level head and recognize who exactly is doing this.

Bhim Sena aka Mahaghatbandhan 2.0. Led by Chandrashekhar Azad Ravan ( latest avatar of Kanhaiya, Hardik Patel, Arvind Kejriwal series of operatives ).

It is being done EXACTLY in the hope that Hindus will lose their cool and react violently against Dalits who had nothing to do with it. So that another 2002 narrative can be built, this time undermining caste solidarity.

Be angry by all means, but let anger sharpen your mind, not uproot it. Hysterical response is exactly what this video is being circulated to provoke.

Watching this video and then spewing a bunch of unwarranted BS conclusions regarding how many % of Hindus are "accidental Hindus" would come under the category of hysterical response (with intense ovarian involvement).

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby ashish raval » 03 Jun 2017 03:59

These mofos should be dumped on an island where comodos are living. These are pretty criminals who suddenly got enfranchised with criminality with money flying around to do stupid things like these. Hindus would be better of without such sub zero IQ creppy crawlies in desh..

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Bhurishravas » 03 Jun 2017 12:41

Rudradev wrote:
Bhurishravas wrote:Didnt know where to put this. Mods, please help.
Lord Hanuman is being spat upon and shoe patted in this video. High blood pressure patients, dont watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2IwcNU9QA0

IMHO, there are no more than 20/25% Hindus in India. The rest of the so-numbered 80% are either accidental `Hindus`, opportunistic `Hindus` or the ones on their way out. And that is why insulting hindu beliefs through beef fest or by calling a hindu goddess prostitute or the videos like the one above do not encounter the resistance that it would have if Hindus were truly in majority in India.
As `hindus on their way out` grow in strength, we may see more disturbances in the country than we are doing today.


Keep a level head and recognize who exactly is doing this.

Bhim Sena aka Mahaghatbandhan 2.0. Led by Chandrashekhar Azad Ravan ( latest avatar of Kanhaiya, Hardik Patel, Arvind Kejriwal series of operatives ).

It is being done EXACTLY in the hope that Hindus will lose their cool and react violently against Dalits who had nothing to do with it. So that another 2002 narrative can be built, this time undermining caste solidarity.
Be angry by all means, but let anger sharpen your mind, not uproot it. Hysterical response is exactly what this video is being circulated to provoke.
Watching this video and then spewing a bunch of unwarranted BS conclusions regarding how many % of Hindus are "accidental Hindus" would come under the category of hysterical response (with intense ovarian involvement).


In other words, bury your head in sand.
I know a lot of people here have a problem with Jholachaap JNUites. But interestingly, there is little analysis of what is going on there and let me do it for you. A majority of students(highly educated/politicised) vote and support a non-national, non `hindu` narrative. Saying that they are brainwashed is simplistic. The truth is that they dont identify with the version of hinduism that most people at BR or RSS identify with. There is no hindu unity for them. The hindu religion is to be reviled as it is and has been a source of their exploitation and oppression. And that is why pamphlets declaring hindu goddesses to be prostitutes appear there. It is the state writ that suppresses such acts and therefore the state is to be opposed too.
Who supports the narrative of hindu unity. The one that is propagated by RSS and is accepted wihout question elsehwere. It is the upper caste hindus or uneducated so called "lower caste" who voted en masse for Narendra Modi. I am willing to bet that most of us here on BR are upper caste hindus and not more than 20% so called lower caste fellas.
Who is Chandrashekhar Azad? Isnt he an educated lawyer?!As education seeps in, what is the guarantee that the rest of the society will not go down the JNU path. In fact, barring a few OBCs, what we see mostly on social media is an educated class of so called low-caste people taking radical anti-hindu positions. Arent the brahmins in Tamil Nadu and Kerela enjoying the hospitality of their hindu unity brethren. What is the position of DMK vis-vis hinduism?!Isnt it a hindu bashing party that is partly suspected of having separatist tendencies and had overtly demanded a separate Dravida Nadu in its earlier Avatar?
Yes, we should not react to videos where hindu gods are being spat upon because the video has an ulterior motive?! Reacting will divide the imaginary hindu unity and even more importantly it might endanger the all important BJP votes. We might as well spit ourselves if it ensures that 2002 narrative is not built again.
Talk of bullshit. Hindu unity, nationalist political party are imaginary constructs. If you cant defend your gods for some greater political goal, then that goal has already become unachievable.
Cheers. Enjoy your abode wherever you are.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby prahaar » 03 Jun 2017 12:53

Bhurishravaji, what you have said is exactly what Bheem Sena or Sambhaji Brigade or Periyar Brigade is saying. Only with sadness about the situation and anger against Hindus. So called lower class is a fact of life, did you read about a Jat Sikh killing himself when he found that his wife's mother was a Dalit (father was a Jat Sikh)? There are numerous people working from all sides to bridge these isolated islands.

Reacting against hate propaganda must be done in a smart manner, attack the idea not the individual or his/her social milieu.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Bhurishravas » 03 Jun 2017 13:12

prahaar wrote:Bhurishravaji, what you have said is exactly what Bheem Sena or Sambhaji Brigade or Periyar Brigade is saying. Only with sadness about the situation and anger against Hindus. So called lower class is a fact of life, did you read about a Jat Sikh killing himself when he found that his wife's mother was a Dalit (father was a Jat Sikh)? There are numerous people working from all sides to bridge these isolated islands.

Reacting against hate propaganda must be done in a smart manner, attack the idea not the individual or his/her social milieu.


Yaar, Noone is attacking anybody individually or whatever milieu. I just pointed out some facts. And I might agree that some people are noble minded and might be trying to bridge the social divisions. But what I see is a bigger and faster centrifugal force driving people apart. There is emerging a social class which does not believe in any such woolly notions of hindu unity. And this is the educated elite who will be guiding the future generations of their community forward.
And I wonder how the video is hate propaganda. It is an expression of a section of a community that believes in ambedkar and despises hindu gods. It is hate propaganda only if it is doctored or fake.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby shyamal » 04 Jun 2017 02:18

Propaganda need not be based on fake or doctored info.
Caste is our bane. There is no denying that. And caste discrimination is very real.
We need to see the bigger picture and not do hindu on hindu(even in thoughts and words) over this kind of provocation. That would only give our enemies an easy win.

I do not know about north India. In Bengal atleast Hindu identity is reasserting itself. Yes, there s a lot of opposition but its growing.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby JE Menon » 04 Jun 2017 11:42

>>I just pointed out some facts.

Which facts? Please clarify. I read your post which elicited a response from RD, and I did not see any facts just assertions. Kindly elaborate.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Tamang » 04 Jun 2017 12:05

This Chandrashekhar Azad guy seems to be newest hope for commie/break India gang after their investment in Hardik Patel, Jignesh Mevani, AK, Kanhaiya etc sank without a whimper. As of now I have not seen any traction for this CA on either Lutyen's Media or SM.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Chandragupta » 04 Jun 2017 12:15

No Dalit in his right mind will insult their gods. This is a setup to incite violence nothing else. Some picture also showed Muslim involvement in these protests.Lets not lose our cool. If Hindus were no longer Hindus, we would not be watching a saffron surge in India.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Bhurishravas » 04 Jun 2017 14:55

JE Menon wrote:>>I just pointed out some facts.

Which facts? Please clarify. I read your post which elicited a response from RD, and I did not see any facts just assertions. Kindly elaborate.


These
And that is why pamphlets declaring hindu goddesses to be prostitutes appear there.

Who is Chandrashekhar Azad? Isnt he an educated lawyer?!

Arent the brahmins in Tamil Nadu and Kerela enjoying the hospitality of their hindu unity brethren. What is the position of DMK vis-vis hinduism?!Isnt it a hindu bashing party that is partly suspected of having separatist tendencies and had overtly demanded a separate Dravida Nadu in its earlier Avatar?
Last edited by Bhurishravas on 04 Jun 2017 15:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Bhurishravas » 04 Jun 2017 14:59

Chandragupta wrote:No Dalit in his right mind will insult their gods. This is a setup to incite violence nothing else.


I live in JNU. I see it everyday. "So called dalits" dont give a f""ck about your gods. There are cultural programs on Ambedkar`s birth anniversary. All night they gave gaali to hindu gods and goddesses on loudspeakers in front of Sabarmati hostel. That was just one day.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Bhurishravas » 04 Jun 2017 15:05

shyamal wrote:That would only give our enemies an easy win.


The definition of enemy is different for different people. For DMK it is the Hindu Panini. To believe that everyone shares your world and social view is naive. The massacre of Bhumihar Brahmins in Bihar by CPI(ML) in caste wars is a pointer.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Singha » 04 Jun 2017 15:07

those are special JNU trained dalit-commie-islamofascist hybrid mutation.

one has to look at the outside world.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Bhurishravas » 04 Jun 2017 15:29

Singha wrote:those are special JNU trained dalit-commie-islamofascist hybrid mutation.
one has to look at the outside world.


That is the simplistic assessment i was talking about. As if JNU is on Mars.
What happened in Saharanpur and the above video is an iteration of larger malaise.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby sanjayc » 04 Jun 2017 15:29

Bhurishravas wrote:
Chandragupta wrote:No Dalit in his right mind will insult their gods. This is a setup to incite violence nothing else.


I live in JNU. I see it everyday. "So called dalits" dont give a f""ck about your gods. There are cultural programs on Ambedkar`s birth anniversary. All night they gave gaali to hindu gods and goddesses on loudspeakers in front of Sabarmati hostel. That was just one day.


These dalits are victims of communist brainwashing at JNU. Most Hindu scriptures are written by those who would today be called dalits. This artificial category is a British mischief invented in 1930s, and perpetuated by Congress and communists. There are dozens of revered Hindu saints who would fall into Dalit category.

This is a nice page for this:

http://www.hindupedia.com/en/Dalit_Hindu_saints

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby sanjayc » 04 Jun 2017 15:50

Bhurishravas wrote:
Chandragupta wrote:No Dalit in his right mind will insult their gods. This is a setup to incite violence nothing else.


I live in JNU. I see it everyday. "So called dalits" dont give a f""ck about your gods. There are cultural programs on Ambedkar`s birth anniversary. All night they gave gaali to hindu gods and goddesses on loudspeakers in front of Sabarmati hostel. That was just one day.


What do you mean by "your gods"?

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Anindya » 04 Jun 2017 16:41

Rohingyas slowly getting into familiar businesses

Myanmar national arrested for trafficking 20 girls to India

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby rsangram » 04 Jun 2017 17:11

Bhurishravas wrote:
prahaar wrote:Bhurishravaji, what you have said is exactly what Bheem Sena or Sambhaji Brigade or Periyar Brigade is saying. Only with sadness about the situation and anger against Hindus. So called lower class is a fact of life, did you read about a Jat Sikh killing himself when he found that his wife's mother was a Dalit (father was a Jat Sikh)? There are numerous people working from all sides to bridge these isolated islands.

Reacting against hate propaganda must be done in a smart manner, attack the idea not the individual or his/her social milieu.


Yaar, Noone is attacking anybody individually or whatever milieu. I just pointed out some facts. And I might agree that some people are noble minded and might be trying to bridge the social divisions. But what I see is a bigger and faster centrifugal force driving people apart. There is emerging a social class which does not believe in any such woolly notions of hindu unity. And this is the educated elite who will be guiding the future generations of their community forward.
And I wonder how the video is hate propaganda. It is an expression of a section of a community that believes in ambedkar and despises hindu gods. It is hate propaganda only if it is doctored or fake.



Totally agree with Bhurishravas. "Putting your head in the sand" is exactly what it is. One may argue for different strategies and tactics for dealing with a certain situation, but one cannot and should not hide facts or not mention them or bury them in the sand or sweep them under the rug. If there is a movement in India among a significantly large section of the population, even if it is 5 or 10%, and the movement is advancing, unchecked, unresisted, unchallenged and even unacknowledged just because we dhoti shiver that even talking about "is exactly what these anti-nationals want" and will help them mobilize greater numbers in their favor, then Bhrishravas is right, you have lost already. That is a losers creed, and loser thinking. It is even more serious, but along the same lines, as denying your own army casualties. This sort of thinking arises more out of denial, delusion and yes, cowardice.

The rule of thumb of a winner is, to state the truth, whatever it is, openly, boldly, clearly, unequivocally and categorically. Whatever it is. Anything else is just plain cowardice and another form of dhoti and pant shivering. What passes here, among certain people is the opposite. Stating and acknowledgment of truth and facts is branded as dhoti shivering. It is an old "Islamist" tactic - perpetrate abuse and atrocity on someone and then accuse the victim of perpetrating that atrocity both on themselves and the perpetrators, and some on this forum have learnt well from the Pakis, but instead of the Islamists who perpetrate this on "others", some here use this tactic against their own - for speaking the truth and laying out facts.

Can anyone explain, why concealing or hiding or sweeping under the rug, the fact that Hindu Gods are being severely insulted, buy us ? No one is saying that we should go about inflicting mass punishment or group punishment against a section of the population. Bhrishravas is only arguing that we should spread awareness, so people know what is going on and punish just those people, who perpetrate such acts. Under the Indian constitution and IPC, inciting religious hatred is a criminal offence. I would like to see it being used against the anti-Hindu for once.
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby rsangram » 04 Jun 2017 17:26

JE Menon wrote:>>I just pointed out some facts.

Which facts? Please clarify. I read your post which elicited a response from RD, and I did not see any facts just assertions. Kindly elaborate.


JE,

Bhurishravas has responded to you, by highlighting facts in his post, that you asked for.

But, may I ask, what is wrong with assertions ? Just about everything posted here is assertion (opinion). Simply asking a question like you did, clearly implying that his assertions have no merit, because he has not stated any facts (an assertion, on your part, which I might add, happens to be untrue), without providing any counter arguments, is just innuendo, bordering on a slur.

It is not really very "clever", and is negative. I would have loved to see counter arguments from you, rather than "chankyan" put downs like that. What does this sort of put down accomplish, other than to diminish a person, who is simply trying to post his opinion. He did not attack you personally. I am disappointed in you. Instead of diminishing him, this sort of thing diminishes you, particularly, when reading your posts elsewhere, including a detailed response to one of my own posts, I know you are capable of making powerful arguments, which I may not agree with, but they are well thought out.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Karthik S » 04 Jun 2017 20:20

Republic‏Verified account @republic
#BREAKING: NIA's most-wanted man Ansari has been arrested by Bihar Police on the Indo-Nepal border

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Bhurishravas » 04 Jun 2017 23:48

These dalits are victims of communist brainwashing at JNU.

It is the other way round. Communists were giving a platform to so called lower castes to air their anger at the state` and `prevalent social structure`.

Last year BAPSA(Birsa Ambedkar Phule) Association fought the elections for the first time in JNU and they came second. Same `social justice` plank as the commis.
In fact, so scared were the commis of BAPSA that SFI and AISA, two of the largest leftist student organisations aligned to fight BAPSA. An unheard of alliance in even Commi politics.
And BAPSA fought the elections because so called dalits are unwilling to let brahmins like Kanhaiya Kumar lead their `social justice` movement. No matter how loudly jokers like Kanhaiya Kumar or other commis shout support to `anti-brahminism`, they are not needed or welcome because of their birth status.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Supratik » 05 Jun 2017 00:50

Mods,

Thread is being derailed.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby shyamal » 05 Jun 2017 01:12

Bhurishravas wrote:
shyamal wrote:That would only give our enemies an easy win.


The definition of enemy is different for different people. For DMK it is the Hindu Panini. To believe that everyone shares your world and social view is naive. The massacre of Bhumihar Brahmins in Bihar by CPI(ML) in caste wars is a pointer.


Ofcourse everyone does not share my world view :)

I know who I consider enemy. And I am talking about them.

Politics in places like JNU or JU are completely different from politics of the rest of the population. Yes, periodically outfits like Bhim Sena and various ultra left outfits are floated to test the waters.
As long as the general populations keeps its cool and does not overreact to this kind of provocation they soon fade out.

Our focus should be on removing discrimination and other such disuniting factors from among hindus. Despondence because a (very small) section of Dalits are abusing hindu gods is an overreaction - and thats just what this propaganda aims for.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby shyamal » 05 Jun 2017 01:28

rsangram wrote:
Can anyone explain, why concealing or hiding or sweeping under the rug, the fact that Hindu Gods are being severely insulted, buy us ? No one is saying that we should go about inflicting mass punishment or group punishment against a section of the population. Bhrishravas is only arguing that we should spread awareness, so people know what is going on and punish just those people, who perpetrate such acts. Under the Indian constitution and IPC, inciting religious hatred is a criminal offence. I would like to see it being used against the anti-Hindu for once.


I can speak from my own experience.
No one hides the fact that these outfits abuse hindu gods.
For example - the fact that Durga was abused as a prostitute by these JNU-chhaap groups was given wide publicity in Bengal.
That is one of the reasons that CPI(M) has completely lost its base in West Bengal and is now fighting desperately with BJP to retain the "chief opposition party" tag.
No CPI(M) guy had abused Durga. Just the association of CPI(M) with those outfits was enough to ruin them.
Whenever they open their mouths about communalism now, they are mocked.

These incidents actually lead to greater hindu consolidation if played intelligently.

Whats the use of imprisoning a few low level workers of these fringe outfits? It will only give them more sympathy and publicity. Let the anger burn the puppet-masters instead :)

These incidents can be really useful in the hands of kommunals to make the point that Hinduism Khatre mein hain :)

These posts are seriously off topic for this thread. Requesting the mods to put them in an appropriate thread.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby rsangram » 05 Jun 2017 09:46

shyamal wrote:
rsangram wrote:
Can anyone explain, why concealing or hiding or sweeping under the rug, the fact that Hindu Gods are being severely insulted, buy us ? No one is saying that we should go about inflicting mass punishment or group punishment against a section of the population. Bhrishravas is only arguing that we should spread awareness, so people know what is going on and punish just those people, who perpetrate such acts. Under the Indian constitution and IPC, inciting religious hatred is a criminal offence. I would like to see it being used against the anti-Hindu for once.


I can speak from my own experience.
No one hides the fact that these outfits abuse hindu gods.
For example - the fact that Durga was abused as a prostitute by these JNU-chhaap groups was given wide publicity in Bengal.
That is one of the reasons that CPI(M) has completely lost its base in West Bengal and is now fighting desperately with BJP to retain the "chief opposition party" tag.
No CPI(M) guy had abused Durga. Just the association of CPI(M) with those outfits was enough to ruin them.
Whenever they open their mouths about communalism now, they are mocked.

These incidents actually lead to greater hindu consolidation if played intelligently.

Whats the use of imprisoning a few low level workers of these fringe outfits? It will only give them more sympathy and publicity. Let the anger burn the puppet-masters instead :)

These incidents can be really useful in the hands of kommunals to make the point that Hinduism Khatre mein hain :)

These posts are seriously off topic for this thread. Requesting the mods to put them in an appropriate thread.


I dont agree that we should not apply the law for any reason. There should be no discretion in application of law. If someone breaks it, law should be applied to them, without looking left, right, up, down, inside, outside, and without regard to what is "expedient". In fact, anyone who uses arbitrariness in application of the law or selectiveness in its application, should be treated as a criminal and severely punished, whether they be IAS officers, or IPS officers or the Netas.

But we can agree to disagree and move on.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby shyamal » 05 Jun 2017 14:08

I am sure that kind of mindless approach would be very convenient for the forces that wish harm to my country. We are fighting a war of ideas and we do need to be expedient. Igniting caste fault-lines is the only ammunition left to the scoundrels. We need to deny them that opportunity. For that purpose, if we have to be selective and perform taqiya we should definitely do so :)

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby JE Menon » 05 Jun 2017 14:42

Bhurishravas wrote:
JE Menon wrote:>>I just pointed out some facts.

Which facts? Please clarify. I read your post which elicited a response from RD, and I did not see any facts just assertions. Kindly elaborate.


These
And that is why pamphlets declaring hindu goddesses to be prostitutes appear there.

Who is Chandrashekhar Azad? Isnt he an educated lawyer?!

Arent the brahmins in Tamil Nadu and Kerela enjoying the hospitality of their hindu unity brethren. What is the position of DMK vis-vis hinduism?!Isnt it a hindu bashing party that is partly suspected of having separatist tendencies and had overtly demanded a separate Dravida Nadu in its earlier Avatar?


One and two only reinforce RD's argument. Point 3 has been going on virtually since independence, is part of the domestic political milieu and is being steadily handled (not without bloodshed on the non-Communist side, but not only).


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