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Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Posted: 25 Apr 2017 16:20
by rkhanna
Sicanta wrote:
rkhanna wrote:{I have a question - are the villagers working for monetary benefits or is it ideological? Former would be easier to wean away. Plus what does indeed happen at these mines?}

IMO - neither . its just their way of life. Most have family members with the rebels, alot of the older ones have been ex rebels themselves so are partial to them. The rebels inturn protect the villagers from other rebel factions / Police harassment / etc etc. The Rebels control the economy of the local areas so there is a co -dependence.

There is not much of Ideology left its business.


Thanks. I have another Q - if the maoist leaders have freedom of movement including attending such meetings with administration and cops, what xactly are we, including crpf, fighting against and to what end? I mean since your post makes it clear that maoist writ runs uncontested in these areas, why show subservience to them and their obvious demands in return for concessions regarding shooting films and god know what else; why bolster their confidence by arranging meetings and openly accepting their dominant position? Is road building and other developmental activities being undertaken and secured by the blood of our soldiers useless?


Sirji - I am not qualified to answer this but nonetheless i will share the below quote from wiki


"In 2007, it was estimated that Naxalites were active across "half of the India's 28 states" who account for about 40 percent of India's geographical area an area known as the "Red Corridor", where, according to estimates, they controlled 92,000 square kilometers. In 2009, Naxalites were active across approximately 180 districts in ten states of India[27] In August 2010, Karnataka was removed from the list of Naxal-affected states[22] In July 2011, the number of Naxal-affected areas was reduced to (including proposed addition of 20 districts) 83 districts across nine states"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naxalite% ... insurgency

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Posted: 25 Apr 2017 16:21
by rkhanna
"I'm curious how the Maoists acquire ammunition for their AK-47 and INSAS, unless there is massive pilferage of State and Central forces armories. One needs ammunition to practice to build and retain proficiency.
"

3 Sources

1. Stolen from Indian Police/Security personal
2. Bought from Indian Police/Security Personal
3. China and other Interested Third Parties


Understand that at their heart Naxals are smugglers. Smuggling routes takeing them all across to places such as Bangladehs, Myanmar, Thailand, etc. And these smuggling routes provide great inroads into the subcontinent for SEA smugglers as well. Naxals are relatively cash rich

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Posted: 25 Apr 2017 16:44
by Cosmo_R
^^^ One the basic components of a modern 'Westphalian State' is sovereignty—the absolute monopoly of the state over violence. We let the Naxalites exist at the peril of the Indian State.

It is indeed a failure of governance and of the Indian parliamentary/judicial/federal system. Law and order is a State responsibility but state politics are all about getting to the trough and staying there.

Neither the Naxals nor the stone pelters fear the Indian Government—only taxpayers do. As Machiavelli, said:

"...men have less scruple in offending one who is beloved than one who is feared, for love is preserved by the link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of punishment which never fails."

http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince17.htm

Which is why there needs to be overwhelming violence against enemies of the state—and not these 'peace missions' that do an ==

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Posted: 25 Apr 2017 17:20
by rkhanna
^^ Agreed. but what do you do when in a number of cases the Naxals and the Indian Government Machinery is hand in hand?

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 25 Apr 2017 17:37
by shyamal

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Posted: 25 Apr 2017 19:39
by darshhan
Cosmo_R wrote:^^^ One the basic components of a modern 'Westphalian State' is sovereignty—the absolute monopoly of the state over violence. We let the Naxalites exist at the peril of the Indian State.

It is indeed a failure of governance and of the Indian parliamentary/judicial/federal system. Law and order is a State responsibility but state politics are all about getting to the trough and staying there.

Neither the Naxals nor the stone pelters fear the Indian Government—only taxpayers do. As Machiavelli, said:

"...men have less scruple in offending one who is beloved than one who is feared, for love is preserved by the link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of punishment which never fails."

http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince17.htm

Which is why there needs to be overwhelming violence against enemies of the state—and not these 'peace missions' that do an ==


But maybe the euro style westphalian model is not suited to India.

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 25 Apr 2017 20:49
by Gyan
From the arms, ammo and wireless sets captured by Maoists, its clearly evident that the CRPF party was very heavily armed. Lot of hits would have been absorbed by BPJs. Any ambush could have been broken up by use of UBGLs & LMGs. It seems that CRPF personnel did not get "special" jungle training. Maoists area requires training for full scale military warfare and not only "armed civilian policing". It seems that no wireless message was dispatched inspite of atleast "5 wireless" sets. Sad possibility is that personnel may have been sleeping without guard and/or unknowingly used Maoists as porters. Which is blandly called "breach of established patrolling procedure" in military terms.

As a military forum, we should stop squealing like monkeys and look at situation practically. Govt is opening up a sensitive area and there are bound to be causalities. Jungle warfare is manpower intensive, bloody business and we will make sacrifices. Idea is to train and equip our soldiers to extract maximum pound of flesh. We need to improve our training, equipment, electronic & human Intel and hit the overground supporters. For every dead soldier, kill 10 overground workers of Maoisits.

Modi was able to prevent terrorism in Gujarat inspite of ISI being desperate to use Muslim dis-satisfaction in Gujarat against him. This/Sukma was perhaps a tactical failure at local level but we should use it to make tactical, strategic and geopolitical improvements.

From the reports it seems that CRPF patrol had around 90-100 soldiers but instead of moving in 3 separate self supporting groups, they might have all have been moving together. The ambush took place in broad daylight which indicates that some workers, porters, villagers and even Maoists were moving together or along with the CRPF patrol. The heavy losses indicate that the whole CRPF patrol had let down their guard for lunch and most of them were asleep when they were ambushed. Most of the deaths may have taken place in the first minute with Maoists creeping right upto the CRPF personnel undetected and then CRPF party broke up (running helter skelter and firing randomly all over the place). This is a tactical failure not that of Modi. CRPF command is to be directly blamed for its failure to provide training and instill discipline.

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 25 Apr 2017 21:34
by Singha
I think large numbers and the arsenal of weapons they carried might a induced a false sense of security. . Its a failure of their patrols leaders if security procedures were violated.

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 25 Apr 2017 21:39
by Singha
Chandragupta wrote:Recon UAVs and simply following SOPs laid down by the CRPF itself can save a lot our good men. I have to say that Rajnath Singh as HM has simply failed to sort out Naxals. We need an iron fist to squat the maoists. At the very least, let our men have good equipment. They don't even have basic supplies there in the jungles.


They had a massive amt of weapons which were looted.

Let us wait for tactical details of the ambush and aftermath to emerge ...

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 25 Apr 2017 21:41
by shyamal
It seems Monday was the weekly market day and lot of people movement was happening. The naxals came camouflaged as market going villagers.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 364595.cms

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 25 Apr 2017 21:41
by SRoy
Not in any particular order.

Fight against Naxalism/Maoism will have collateral damage.
The original Naxal movement was stamped out with iron fist.

Cannot keep on treating the tribal terrorist with kid gloves. They have to pay ... sooner or later.

People need to grow out of juvenile hero worshiping. A rock star spymaster as the NSA has been a complete failure for internal security. A policeman is a policeman, and policemen have limitations when it comes to planning and threat assessment. Need a warmongering General to deal with organized anti-Indian conglomerates like J&K Muslims, JNU gangs and tribal terrorists.

Lets stop wailing. Not disrespecting dead, but our para-paramilitaries lack the training, discipline and morale to fight a long drawn out conflict. They are good as local bullies. Want to check? Ask any army men that jointly work with BSF troops in J&K, CRPF even worse.
British era organization called the "Police" and the manpower that was meant to terrorize Indian subjects in colonial times goes by the name IPS. They are the ones to blame for pitiful condition of the paramilitary forces.

What is the good explanation for 3 or 4 border forces, 4 or 6 central police forces for internal security? Consolidate, depute the leadership from Army.

Finally, on the political front. Look at a composite picture ... J&K situation, periodic unrest by media and academia, Naxals, radical Muslims. What do we see? Actually there is nothing from the government for us to see.

Sorry, Mr. Modi lacks the pair of essentials to carry out necessary actions involving the strong arm of the state.

Is he looking for the opportune moment or thinking "Vikas" a.k.a. development will bring the "misguided" in line? If so, tell that to the widows and orphans already.

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 25 Apr 2017 22:20
by Neela
(read the link from The Hindu and prepare to puke. Arming tribals against Maoists was termed vigilantism by Chindu)
Case: Nandini Sundar ( JNU) and Others vs State of Chattisgarh .
Argument: State of Chattisgarh armed locals and gave them title of SPOs . SPOs poorly trained ,without adequate compensatio.And indulged in gross misuse of power
Verdict: SC deems actions of State of Chattisgarh unconstitutiional and bans use of SPOs (Salwa Judum) by State
Instrumental in disarming locals in their fight rendering them helpless when Maoists came for their villages.

Result? 1800 CRPF men and counting. And unknown number of civvies tortured or killed by Maoists.

JNU has to feel the pain. I want them lured, setup , physically hurt & permanently handicapped. And then I want more cases foisted on them and their will to fight broken.

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 25 Apr 2017 22:27
by Karthik S
SRoy wrote:Not in any particular order.

Fight against Naxalism/Maoism will have collateral damage.
The original Naxal movement was stamped out with iron fist.

Cannot keep on treating the tribal terrorist with kid gloves. They have to pay ... sooner or later.

People need to grow out of juvenile hero worshiping. A rock star spymaster as the NSA has been a complete failure for internal security. A policeman is a policeman, and policemen have limitations when it comes to planning and threat assessment. Need a warmongering General to deal with organized anti-Indian conglomerates like J&K Muslims, JNU gangs and tribal terrorists.

Lets stop wailing. Not disrespecting dead, but our para-paramilitaries lack the training, discipline and morale to fight a long drawn out conflict. They are good as local bullies. Want to check? Ask any army men that jointly work with BSF troops in J&K, CRPF even worse.
British era organization called the "Police" and the manpower that was meant to terrorize Indian subjects in colonial times goes by the name IPS. They are the ones to blame for pitiful condition of the paramilitary forces.

What is the good explanation for 3 or 4 border forces, 4 or 6 central police forces for internal security? Consolidate, depute the leadership from Army.

Finally, on the political front. Look at a composite picture ... J&K situation, periodic unrest by media and academia, Naxals, radical Muslims. What do we see? Actually there is nothing from the government for us to see.

Sorry, Mr. Modi lacks the pair of essentials to carry out necessary actions involving the strong arm of the state.

Is he looking for the opportune moment or thinking "Vikas" a.k.a. development will bring the "misguided" in line? If so, tell that to the widows and orphans already.


+108

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 25 Apr 2017 22:31
by Neela

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Posted: 25 Apr 2017 22:49
by Sicanta
Ground Report: How Bastar Has Been Preparing For The Final Push Against The Maoists

https://swarajyamag.com/politics/ground ... he-maoists

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 00:06
by ramana
See and shed a tear.

Karthik S wrote:Image

Priti Gandhi‏Verified account @MrsGandhi
Daughter of CRPF martyr Inspector Raghbir Singh salutes her father during his funeral in village Sathiala near Amritsar.


Does it remind of daughter of Col MN Rai. Waiting for a severe retribution.

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 00:16
by Cosmo_R
darshhan wrote:
But maybe the euro style westphalian model is not suited to India.


In what sense? What's the Indian model?

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 00:44
by Chandragupta
Doval needs to go. We all thought he was going to change things, wreck havoc in Pakistan, break the back of jehadis and naxals and the fifth coloumn and may be even get Dawood and Hafiz assassinated.

So many wet dreams. Hah.

Modi ji has lost the plot. 56" ki chaati, not really. Sack Doval, and stop chanting Vikas Vikas Vikas. We need retribution for our fallen and respect for our serving. Instead of this, he wants to modernise Madrassas. Aak thoo. If there was a better alternative than NaMo, my vote aould be for them in 2019 but alas, the country is full of jaichands and there is no choice for deshbhakts except for Modi.

It seems we will have to wait for 2024 and Yogi to reach the PM gaddi to see some action and who knows even he might want to modernise Masjids.

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 01:32
by Raja Bose
Looks like one squad of 15 jawans got attacked and wiped out and when a second squad went to investigate they got wiped out too. It was not a set piece battle where 99 men got attacked but a fluid one and CRPF dead were found all over the area which is why there were initial reports of MIA.

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 01:35
by ramana
RB, The odd thing is the press hasn't given us one article that lays out what happened. This feeds the outrage.

Please post any news reports as they come.

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 01:55
by Raja Bose
I have no hopes from the DDM. What I posted is chai wallah level though I heard it from multiple sources in a consistent manner so it's not total hearsay. Such incidents have happened in the same exact fashion for decades now whether in Vietnam (many times), Sri Lanka (incident involving Mahar) and now here. In each case the leadership learned, made changes and the lessons were pushed all the way down to the trooper level. Here despite Dantewada we see a repeat again and again. There are really no radical solutions required here. The BSF and army have already pioneered the way how it's done in a structured manner. What it needs is spine and balls on part of the IPS, IAS babudom and netas to make this happen on a logistics, training and organizational level. The jawan with a gun can do nothing if the organization and logistics to support him is poor. And to be honest, the blood of any one of those jawans is more precious than any fat babu.

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 02:43
by ramana
Well from reports what I gather is a party of ~100 CRPF company was sent to guard a road building construction crew.

Around 12:30 pm, 300 Naxals attacked the CRPF party. A group of armed sentries was posted while the rest were having lunch. The sentries fired back and a few died. Some of those unarmed also died.
On Twitter some one posted the weapons lost by the dead personnel: AK-47s, INSAS rifles etc.
The battalion is 74 Bn CRPF which is one of the newly armed with Ak-47s.
The firefight lasted about an hour.
Some of the wounded were evacuated by helicopters.
The CRPF published the names and pictures of those killed in action.

Some one said about 80 Naxals were killed of the 300 that attacked.

One of the jawan's Sher Mohammed (who is one of the 6 injured) mother said her whole village was proud that he shot 5 of them dead.

So yes the casualties are bad but all this should be seen in perspective.

The Company Commander Inspector Raghubir Singh, died and his daughter's picture is posted above.

Could something have been done different?
Yes always but this would be second guessing the late CO without any facts yet to emerge.

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 03:05
by atamjeetsingh
https://twitter.com/prabin1206/status/8 ... 9681712128
Injured officer giving instruction to jawans,Tell HQ to act if not now then when, not to go forward, need able bodied person to evacuate injured, make smoke for helis to locate, to secure their party, make sure no cross fire among crpf parties. Tell 6Bn command is in their hand now. We have lots of ammunation, keep firing single round.
While jawans are saying pls dont talk sir.

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 03:13
by Sicanta
The way the maoist chief kishen was targeted, this hidma too should be finished off. Will send the required message while keeping the developmental work on in bastar.

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 03:30
by ramana
atamjeetsingh wrote:https://twitter.com/prabin1206/status/856864319681712128
Injured officer giving instruction to jawans,Tell HQ to act if not now then when, not to go forward, need able bodied person to evacuate injured, make smoke for helis to locate, to secure their party, make sure no cross fire among crpf parties. Tell 6Bn command is in their hand now. We have lots of ammunation, keep firing single round.
While jawans are saying pls dont talk sir.



Do we want to second guess this brave man?

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 03:53
by Raja Bose
ramana sir, the CO was in the first group it seems and he was not found in the initial search hence declared MIA. This is really dense scrub forest where the primary clearing is where the road is being built. The CO on the ground cannot do much if he is not given the right tools or support. In this and other cases he died with his troops. He did his duty and beyond. Problem is same cannot be said about his superiors who are away from the front lines. This situation where a large body of troops gets attacked and wiped out when they are resting or having lunch or otherwise have let down their guard a bit is quite common in jungle guerilla warfare and has happened to the best of armies including IA in Sri Lanka and US Army in Vietnam. It happened to the CRPF on Dantewada too when they roamed around searching for the CO's missing radio and then took a break due to hot weather when the Naxals attacked. But in CRPF's case it just keeps getting repeated on the same scale again and again. Something is badly broken.

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 04:02
by Raja Bose
Sicanta wrote:The way the maoist chief kishen was targeted, this hidma too should be finished off. Will send the required message while keeping the developmental work on in bastar.


His days are numbered just like that terrorist kishenji. But killing him is like killing raktabeeja. The root needs to be cut out and they reside in cushy bungalows, clubs and universities in Delhi and other metros.

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 09:40
by Singha
there is a alarming number of media and HR activists who belong to delhi but 'work for tribals' in such areas.

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 09:42
by Singha
question is how do the naxals manage to extricate all their dead bodies and vanish clean? it cannot be easy to carry bodies or wounded in the jungle. points to a good number of civilian porters.

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 10:24
by Gyan
Neela wrote:(read the link from The Hindu and prepare to puke. Arming tribals against Maoists was termed vigilantism by Chindu)
Case: Nandini Sundar ( JNU) and Others vs State of Chattisgarh .
Argument: State of Chattisgarh armed locals and gave them title of SPOs . SPOs poorly trained ,without adequate compensatio.And indulged in gross misuse of power
Verdict: SC deems actions of State of Chattisgarh unconstitutiional and bans use of SPOs (Salwa Judum) by State
Instrumental in disarming locals in their fight rendering them helpless when Maoists came for their villages.

Result? 1800 CRPF men and counting. And unknown number of civvies tortured or killed by Maoists.

JNU has to feel the pain. I want them lured, setup , physically hurt & permanently handicapped. And then I want more cases foisted on them and their will to fight broken.


Who filed the PIL in Supreme Court? Overground Maoist sympathiser, funded by foreign NGOs having NRI husband connected to media? Guess the name!

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 10:31
by Sicanta
Lots of details but in hindi

15 फीट ऊंचाई से पेड़ों पर चढ़कर की फायरिंग

http://mnaidunia.jagran.com/chhattisgar ... ws-1121318

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 11:26
by Sachin
Raja Bose wrote:The BSF and army have already pioneered the way how it's done in a structured manner. What it needs is spine and balls on part of the IPS, IAS babudom and netas to make this happen on a logistics, training and organizational level

My understanding is that BSF is also a CPO, and are staffed at the higher level by the same IPS chaps. So if BSF can have a better way to deal with insurgency and the IPS people out there can adopt, I don't see why it cannot work in CRPF itself. Perhaps one thing which can be done would be to depute/transfer BSF IPS officers with good skills to re-orient CRPF.

Sicanta wrote:The way the maoist chief kishen was targeted, this hidma too should be finished off.

Tend to agree with you. The fact that this fellow's name is released gives an impression that our agencies have got more information that they have released. This Hidma was supposed to have killed in an attack some time in December last year (or Jan this year). But that seems to be a false news.

Re: BSF, CRPF and other Paramilitary Forces Discussion

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 13:38
by Aditya_V
Sicanta wrote:Ground Report: How Bastar Has Been Preparing For The Final Push Against The Maoists

https://swarajyamag.com/politics/ground ... he-maoists


Very goo article, reading it many times Tribals are quoting the Maoists came in 2004 and thrashed them. UPA victory and Maoist resergence went hand in hand. While the long battle is being fought, hope the perpetrators and supporters of the latest crime are taken to task.

It looks like the Northern part of the Maoist belt around, BIjapur, Jagdalpur, Indravati National Park along with Gadhchorli in Maharastrahas had very good progress, it is the 2 forests around Chintagupha and Bheji where the last 2 attacks have happenned. If these guys can be encircled to a few villages and now should be eliminated and thier ties to Businessmen, NGO and Lutyens cabal should be exposed.

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 14:11
by rohitvats
Sachin, difference between BSF and CRPF is in the role and orientation of the force and its troops. BSF mans the border and does not under policing tasks. While not termed as a Para-military, they're the closest we've to one after Assam Rifles. ITBP is also in the same league. Tough men who undergo tough training to handle sensitive tasks on the border. Along many stretches of Leh-Tibet, HP-Tibet and UK-Tibet borders, it is the ITBP which is upfront and then IA comes in. BSF and ITBP are trained both in terms of tactics and psychologically, to deal with the enemy. Assam Rifles, of course, is in a different league given its association with the army.

CRPF is a central armed police force for all seasons.

A battalion or men under it would be one day deployed into anti-Naxal ops and then shifted to poll duties later. Every Bn coming into the theater will learn the trade from ground-up in a hard way. COBRA Bn from the same organization has a pretty stellar record - men with better training and oriented for the task.

Given the extend of Naxal problem, it will take at least 5-6 years of sustained ops to clear them plus another 5+ years to ensure they don't germinate again. It is required that CRPF converts about 150 battalions (about 80 are deployed in Naxal corridor) into something like RR - troops trained from ground-up for hardcore action. And develop an ecosystem for such a task - training establishment, troops rotation policy, organic medical and engineering support, helicopters, pay-scale and additional perks.

There is a Counter Terrorism and Jungle Warfare College (CTJW) is located at Kanker in Chhattisgarh - it was established by an ex-IA officer who had at one point headed the famed CIJW School in Vairengte. He was invited by CH CM it seems. This is used by police of CH and few other states.

And while CRPF has multiple institutes for CI and Anti-Terrorism, this is a specialized training given after initial induction and that too, not on a mass scale.

Armed violence of many shades is a reality in India - a strong CRPF will go a long way in ensuring IA is removed from many IS tasks and CRPF can neutralize the danger.

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 14:31
by rkhanna
Courtesy Kunal B @DFI

Image
Image
Image

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 17:23
by kmkraoind
ANI @ANI_news
West Bengal: BSF has detected a 100 metre-long tunnel at India-Bangladesh border in Fatehpur under North Dinajpur district.
Image

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 18:52
by Neela
Rahul Pandita
@rahulpandita

Terrible pictures emerging from #Sukma site: private parts of several jawans severed. Have seen the pictures myself +


Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 19:26
by Karthik S
Neela wrote:
Rahul Pandita
@rahulpandita

Terrible pictures emerging from #Sukma site: private parts of several jawans severed. Have seen the pictures myself +



Hmm if it were made public, will the eventual public outrage make the govt to move from kadi ninda to kadi saza.

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 20:37
by Aditya_V
Puthiyatamurai Tamil Channel is reporting for the last 1 hour that 10 Maoists have been killed in Sukma encounter today.

Re: Internal Security Watch

Posted: 26 Apr 2017 20:56
by prahaar
Karthikji, these Maoists are not sitting in a garden waiting for HM or PM to change his mind. Consider the pain of the personnel's families before making those statements. Those pictures not becoming public does not mean PM or other people involved will not know about them. What is worse than inaction is hasty action.