Internal Security Watch

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darshan
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby darshan » 06 Dec 2019 17:47

chetak wrote:This was an easy one since non muslims were also involved.

It thus becomes a secular act of justice in a twisted way.

If all the accused were from among the pissfools only, then the telangana govt would not have had the political b@!!$ to do this.

+1
Did TV interview brigade ever trace down family and pictures of the muslim mastermind involved? Truck owners? Routes? Cargos?

Karthik S
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Karthik S » 06 Dec 2019 19:53

[quote="hnair"][/quote]

hnair, didn't get your message, what allegations are you referring you?
Last edited by Karthik S on 07 Dec 2019 12:05, edited 1 time in total.

habal
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby habal » 06 Dec 2019 20:07

One curious point to note is that in both nirbhaya case and in the priyanka case, the rapists belong to the transportation sector.

The transport sector in India (both passenger and freight) is notorious for bribing local police and bribing their way out of interstate traps set on them by local authorities and local police/mvd on a regular basis and it is a welk oiled system of bribes that lubricate this system. Whether it is driving while drunk, overloading, mistatement of goods invoice, taking more than permitted, underage driving lorry by cleaners, solution for all these situations in India is a bribe. In nirbhaya case that tourist bus operator had no permit to operate in delhi on that route that day, they did so repeatedly after paying bribes to traffic cops.

Is it possible that this daily breaking of laws by tourist buses, inter-state truckers & goods transporters is what acts as a trigger for sexual violence. Afterall, what is there in a law, everything can be handled with a bribe in their world no ?

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby VinodTK » 06 Dec 2019 20:09

Rape is horrible, but encounters are a blot on our system, says

New Delhi: Reacting to the encounter of Telangana rape and murder accused, Congress leader Karti Chidambaram said that ‘encounter’ killings are a blot to the system.
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"I don't know facts of what happened in Hyderabad. As a responsible person, all I can say is, it must be thoroughly enquired into, to find out if it was a genuine encounter whether they were trying to flee or it was anything else," Chidambaram said.

Congress leaders Husain Dalwai said that taking of the law into the hands by police cannot be supported.

"The encounter is wrong and cannot be supported. Police taking law into their own hand and destroying it cannot be supported," he said and demanded an inquiry into it.

All four accused in Hyderabad veterinarian's rape and murder case were killed in an encounter at 3:30 am on Friday, the Cyberabad police said.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby VinodTK » 06 Dec 2019 20:20

VinodTK wrote:Rape is horrible, but encounters are a blot on our system, says

New Delhi: Reacting to the encounter of Telangana rape and murder accused, Congress leader Karti Chidambaram said that ‘encounter’ killings are a blot to the system.
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"I don't know facts of what happened in Hyderabad. As a responsible person, all I can say is, it must be thoroughly enquired into, to find out if it was a genuine encounter whether they were trying to flee or it was anything else," Chidambaram said.

Congress leaders Husain Dalwai said that taking of the law into the hands by police cannot be supported.

"The encounter is wrong and cannot be supported. Police taking law into their own hand and destroying it cannot be supported," he said and demanded an inquiry into it...


Better late than never: Jaya Bachchan on Hyderabad rape accused encounter
Samajwadi Party MP Jaya Bachchan on accused in the rape and murder of the woman veterinarian in Telangana killed in an encounter: Der aaye, durust aaye...der aaye, bohot der aaye.


I am against all types of encounters: Owaisi

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Karan M » 06 Dec 2019 20:25

Vikas wrote:Encounter was more for getting the rapist monkey off the back rather than sending message to any criminal. Now everyone can have a sigh of relief and go back to regular life. Singham movie is over guys.
Now no one will ask the govt as why there was no cops around or why her sister had to run from one Precinct to another to get the complaint lodged as per media.
Meanwhile some other girl somewhere is getting raped while Media applauds the encounter specialists.


How can you be certain this was the case? Is it merely because these are cops, so they are by necessity crooks or crooked, or sab mile huen hain ji? Could it be possible the politicians and cops are as frustrated as anyone else and decided to make an example of these 4 guys - even if going by mass market belief the cops did an encounter? This may be the cops method to handle the issue of "running from one precinct to another" and to "ensure no other girl somewhere is not getting assaulted". Quips around "Singham movie is over guys" apart, the fact is this is not the first time AP guys have resorted to such methods.

https://theprint.in/india/social-media- ... ld/328497/
https://www.freepressjournal.in/india/w ... rs-in-2008

VC Sajjanar has also played key role in the encounter killing of naxal Nayeemuddin alias Nayeem. Back then he was the IG Special Intelligence Branch that deals with the naxals. Nayeem was shot dead in the Hyderabad outskirts.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby ArjunPandit » 06 Dec 2019 21:02

habal wrote:One curious point to note is that in both nirbhaya case and in the priyanka case, the rapists belong to the transportation sector.


another aspect is that this is a completely male profession, no contact with fairer gender. From my limited experience, I have seen lack of girls in a team esp in indian context has this serious drawback. Men folk go on slippery slope. Dont need to remind even the GDF folks. Most Men tend to behave in front of women. Lack of women in this sector has this problem. People in transportation with interstate work also have additional problem of lack of checks by family/parents. Truck drviers and interstate drivers etc also has another side effect of travel away from family in rough conditions.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Sachin » 06 Dec 2019 21:50

hnair wrote:Similarly, used to be a time, if you commit a capital crime in India (even if it is involuntary manslaughter or negligence), you are ostracized by society and mostly spend in jail till trial.

Belur Srinivasa Iyengar's murder case was one which rocked Bengaluru in the early 1950s. The summary of the case was that three people who held grudge against the lawyer Iyengar broke into his house killed him, two of his sons, his mother and man servant. And they also looted the place. The murder happened on June 1956. By September, 1957 the case had already passed the stages of Session Court with the Karnataka High Court turning down their appeal. By August 1958 their appeals had reached Supreme Court, it was heard and appeals dismissed. That is within a time span of two years the judicial process was completed. And on December, 1958 , the three guilty Govinda Reddy, Krishna Reddy and Muniswamy Reddy where executed at Central Prison, Bangalore.

In those days looks like this "judicial activism" and certain eminent (!?) lawyers of New Delhi having access to the Supreme Court like it was a Magistrate's Court etc. was not there. Justice was served fast and hot. And off course the "trial by media" also did not exist and there were better work ethics in the media industry as well. In the present case at Hyderabad, I did see some of the media outlets taking out the they were poor, so they did not get justice drama.

Gerard wrote:India only has 138 police per 100,000 population. Italy has 453 per 100,000

A police man in India have to don the roles of a family counselor, crisis negotiator, crime scene analyst, traffic management expert all at the same time. And this is when he also have to know the laws of the land, and also enforce them in a way it pleases multiple stake holders. All this when the Police Act also says that a police man is expected to be on duty 24/7. That is no fixed holidays, no vacations and no family time. Yet they are to be calm and composed and be a person who makes no mistakes. The pay they get at times is lower than that of a Lower Division clerk in government service. 61 police men have committed suicide in Kerala alone, since 2015. And this is a state where people talk about high HDI, and foreign standard life style etc. :roll:.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby darshan » 06 Dec 2019 21:58

Sachin wrote:And off course the "trial by media" also did not exist and there were better work ethics in the media industry as well. In the present case at Hyderabad, I did see some of the media outlets taking out the they were poor, so they did not get justice drama.
:.


*****, identity and pictures – How Media and Social Media treated Hyderabad victim with complete insensitivity
https://tfipost.com/2019/12/***** ... nsitivity/
Even before the lascivious and disgusting minds trended her name on a ***** site, the victim’s name went trending on Twitter and her identity was also revealed by several mainstream media outlets. Not only her name, even her pictures, including burnt pictures, were published by several mainstream media outlets.

The media outlets seem to have no respect for Supreme Court guidelines, according to which no media house or person is permitted to print or publish the name of the victim, or even in a remote manner disclose any fact which can lead to the identification of the Hyderabad victim and making her identity known to the public at large.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Vips » 06 Dec 2019 22:42

Skanda wrote:
ShyamSP wrote: ...
All 4 accused in Hyderabad vet rape and murder case killed in police encounter
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/a ... 2019-12-06


Will be interesting to know whom the liberal media will Lynch now given that Telangana has no BJP Govt. Plus, some sort of street justice was required here. The parents of one of the killers was brazen to say, "my son is a juvenile so he will be fine".

Also, a precedent has been set perhaps lessons learnt from the nirbhaya trial.


One of the rapist/murderer in the Nirbhaya case was a Juevenile minor muslim. He spent just 2 years in the prison and is out now. The system is broken and taken advantage of. Vigilantism is sometimes required and is justified. Making this comment with all seriousness and knowing all the consequences.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Gerard » 07 Dec 2019 00:11

Xpost

So the Swedish King and Queen are urging an end to sexual violence in India. How touching. Sweden has a rape rate of 63.5 rapes per 100,000 population vs the Indian rate of 1.8 rapes per 100,000 population. UK has now issued a travel advisory warning of rape in India. London has 20.9 rapes per day compared to 5.1 a day for New Delhi. All of India has 94 rapes per day. England and Wales alone have 160 rapes per day. Their Swedish Majesties need to eradicate sexual violence in Stockholm and have a word with their cousin Elizabeth Windsor.

http://worldpopulationreview.com/countr ... y-country/
The ten countries with the highest rates of rape (number of incidents per 100,000 citizens) are:

South Africa (132.4)
Botswana (92.9)
Lesotho (82.7)
Swaziland (77.5)
Bermuda (67.3)
Sweden (63.5)
Suriname (45.2)
Costa Rica (36.7)
Nicaragua (31.6)
Grenada (30.6)


https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/se ... n-a-decade
Rape charges, prosecutions and convictions in England and Wales have fallen to their lowest levels in more than a decade.

The steep decline comes despite the number of rapes the police record more than doubling over six years to 58,657 in 2018.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-50622051
According to the latest government crime figures, police registered 33,658 cases of rape in India in 2017 - an average of 92 every day.


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-47959684
If a man goes back on his promise to marry a woman, can sex between consenting adults then be considered rape?
The Indian Supreme Court recently answered this question with a "yes".In a significant verdict, the court upheld a trial court order convicting a doctor of rape in the central state of Chhattisgarh because he had a consensual sexual relationship with a woman after he'd promised to marry her, but then went back on his word and married someone else.

This is not a rare case - according to the government's crime data for 2016, police recorded 10,068 similar cases of rape by "known persons on promise to marry the victim". In 2015, that number was 7,655.


https://www.theguardian.com/global-deve ... lse-claims
According to the National Crime Records Bureau, a total of 38,947 rape cases were reported in India in 2016. In 10,068 cases – about a quarter – the women claimed it was rape on false promise of marriage. In Andhra Pradesh state, 45% of all rape cases filed in the past two years fell into the false marriage category.
“When a relationship ends, women who have had consensual sex make false accusations of rape under promise of marriage out of vengefulness, to hurt the man. Or they do it to extort money out of him, promising to withdraw the charge if he gives them what they want,” says lawyer Vinay Sharma.

In many cases, false rape accusations are simply the result of parents covering up the “shame” of an unmarried daughter having sex. Research carried out in 2015 by journalist Rukmini Shrinivasan, who worked for the Hindu newspaper at the time, revealed that when parents discover their unmarried daughters are in a sexual relationship, their horror at potential “dishonour” to the family name leads many to make spurious allegations of rape, having first bullied their children into submission.
By their logic, saying a daughter has been raped is preferable to people thinking she is sexually active. Shrinivasan stumbled upon this finding after discerning a pattern in the charge sheets she examined in Mumbai. Time and again, it was the same story: the victim had been picked up in a moving car, given a drink laced with sedatives to render her unconscious, and raped.

The recurrence of the sedative-laced drink seemed striking. Then the penny dropped. “This allegation is important because it is necessary to show that consent was not given, to protect the girl’s reputation,” says Shrinivasan.

Sharma supports her findings. He says the same story can be found in 50 of his 90 cases. “Only the names, dates and locations are different, otherwise they all narrate the story of sedatives and drinks when in fact the girls were in a relationship and willingly having sex,” he says.

Shrinivasan’s research into the 460 rape cases that came to trial in New Delhi in 2013 revealed that “more than one third turned out to be cases of couples having consensual sex outside marriage but, when the parents found out, they went to the police to end the relationship”.


https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-38796457
Her first discovery was that the media's alarm about stranger rape was overblown.
"Stranger rape, the thing that gets most highly reported in India, was an absolutely tiny category," she says. It accounted for just 12 of the 460 cases.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby nachiket » 07 Dec 2019 00:43

To anyone who supports what the Hyderabad cops did, I only want to ask one question. How confident are you that the cops will arrest the right people for every crime? Are they so infallible that they could never make a mistake?

In the Kathua rape case, one of the accused was acquitted during the trial while the others were convicted. Witnesses came forward stating that they had been forced to give false evidence against that person. If the police there had "encountered" everyone when the media and people were baying for blood, he would have been killed along with the rest. The crime there was equally horrendous and if people are justified in asking for instant justice in this case, then that is equally so in that one.

Imagine a Muslim girl getting raped and murdered in a Congress ruled state. These people created "Saffron Terror" out of thin air. You don't think they can force the cops to arrest some troublesome Hindu men to hide the real perpetrators, especially if the real ones are politically connected? The cops can just kill them and we're done with it, because this is normalized and even encouraged by everyone. No one will be the wiser while the msm will happily chant "justice done" since evil yindoos had committed a crime on a Muslim and got their comeuppance.

We are sliding down a slippery slope here. The Mumbai police used this extensively to get rid of gangsters once and we all cheered because we wanted clean streets. Later on it turned out some politicians and cops were in cahoots with Dawood and helped him eliminate his rivals using police encounters. I was on the opposite side of this argument once but my views have changed over time once I realized the dangers of this approach.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby nachiket » 07 Dec 2019 00:55

Sachin wrote:
nachiket wrote:The police are just covering up their incompetence and inability to conduct an actual investigation constructing a real case that can get a conviction in the court by basically committing extra-judicial killings. Are we absolutely sure all 4 were definitely involved in the crime?

:roll:. Why don't the legal luminaries and arm chair generals just don a police uniform and conduct the investigations themselves? I am sure they will certainly surpass the Telengana Police known for their incompetence and inability. The indian judicial system is extremely slow, and to be frank it is now very favourable to criminals. We are still aping the British judical process & systems which worked once upon a time in a tiny country like UK. This case would get dragged on for ever. There are lawyers who are willing to help the criminals; not because of their sense of justice but that would help them get more name & fame. <snipped>

If we are not allowed to criticize any actions not pertaining to our own occupation without being asked "Why don't you do it yourself?", then we should all stop posting on this thread, unless we are employed by one of the agencies responsible for internal security in India. We should shut down the Mil Forum too for everyone except ex-servicemen and DRDO scientists.

Yes our judicial system is terrible. We need to ask our political masters why reforming that is never a part of anyone's manifesto. There are millions of cases pending in the courts because many positions of judges are vacant> Even the currently sanctioned strength is not filled up when we actually need to increase it to cope with number of cases. Rules regarding bail etc. in violent offences also need to be changed. The juvenile law was fixed after the Nirbhaya case. They could have used it in this one but the case never reached court.

The police definitely deserved criticism in this case for the way they acted when the victim's family came to lodge a complaint.

As for lawyers "helping" rape accused, they are entitled to a lawyer to defend them in our justice system, which is no different from any justice system anywhere else. The standard of evidence needed in rape and murder cases is also similar to other countries.

One bad decision "not reforming the justice system" cannot be fixed by another bad one "allowing police to kill the accused because it will take too long to get justice".

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Karthik S » 07 Dec 2019 00:57

nachiket wrote:To anyone who supports what the Hyderabad cops did, I only want to ask one question. How confident are you that the cops will arrest the right people for every crime? Are they so infallible that they could never make a mistake?

In the Kathua rape case, one of the accused was acquitted during the trial while the others were convicted. Witnesses came forward stating that they had been forced to give false evidence against that person. If the police there had "encountered" everyone when the media and people were baying for blood, he would have been killed along with the rest. The crime there was equally horrendous and if people are justified in asking for instant justice in this case, then that is equally so in that one.

Imagine a Muslim girl getting raped and murdered in a Congress ruled state. These people created "Saffron Terror" out of thin air. You don't think they can force the cops to arrest some troublesome Hindu men to hide the real perpetrators, especially if the real ones are politically connected? The cops can just kill them and we're done with it, because this is normalized and even encouraged by everyone. No one will be the wiser while the msm will happily chant "justice done" since evil yindoos had committed a crime on a Muslim and got their comeuppance.

We are sliding down a slippery slope here. The Mumbai police used this extensively to get rid of gangsters once and we all cheered because we wanted clean streets. Later on it turned out some politicians and cops were in cahoots with Dawood and helped him eliminate his rivals using police encounters. I was on the opposite side of this argument once but my views have changed over time once I realized the dangers of this approach.


+1, law has to run its course, accused has to be pronounced guilty after following due procedure and process, and then be sentenced based on the crime.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Gerard » 07 Dec 2019 01:19

To anyone who supports what the Hyderabad cops did, I only want to ask one question. How confident are you that the cops will arrest the right people for every crime? Are they so infallible that they could never make a mistake?


The Ryan International School case shows how an innocent man can be arrested and allegedly tortured by police. Were it not for the CBI getting involved, the bus driver may be on death row today and a murderous teenage schoolboy may have killed other little boys like Pradyuman Thakur.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby darshan » 07 Dec 2019 02:07

I'm looking at the whole thing as nothing but political advantageous cleansing. Stat analysis on encounters from the religious perspective would lead to many interpretations and implications for internal security similar to Dawood. Setting up of Hindus has happened multiple times.

Example, UP bragged about encounters but what if they are all lopsided because Hindu areas are walk in the park to raid and engage criminals while muslim areas aren't.

Where was this top cop sleeping and hiding till now? Or is it the first case of rape in the whole state? His action clearly sent a message that if you're a hindu and dalit suffering from muslim atrocities, then you don't deserve quick justice.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby vishvak » 07 Dec 2019 03:31

That is within a time span of two years the judicial process was completed.
..
And off course the "trial by media" also did not exist and there were better work ethics in the media industry as well.

The 'popular' cases seem to be in such ways that they are not in Gujarat for example (where other type of cases are).

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Vayutuvan » 07 Dec 2019 06:21

tandav wrote:How to reform the Indian Bureaucracy : Police, IAS, IPS, Judiciary: At least the Politicians we can throw out every 4 years.


5 years (in India). :wink:

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby SriKumar » 07 Dec 2019 08:37

The fact that this encounter happened is because the judiciary takes years or a decade or more to decide rape/murder cases. The people made most irrelevant by this killing that has been applauded by the public are the judiciary. They were always irrelevant to dispensing justice anyway. It is pointless to talk about law and due process when it takes a decade or more to decide a case. During that time, witnesses forget, witnesses die, evidence gets lost/contaminated. The person who benefits the most from this is the criminal as it gets more difficult if not impossible to prove anything after that length of time. This has been the case for 20+ years now and getting worse. There is no justice for common people. The machinery for a judicial process benefits only those who receive a paycheck for holding the posts in the system- and those who can buy patronage. This encounter wont change anything though- the judicial process will run just as slowly (whether it is due to the byzantine rules, or the judges or the lack of them, the police or lack of them, or the lawyers who ask for postponements, or shoddy crime scene processing methods, or the ante-diluvian equipment police work with etc etc) and get slower as more cases come into the system.

As for slippery slope, there are tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands) of rape cases pending in courts all over India. If a hundred more encounters took place, that is still less than 1%. it will still not come close to a slippery slope. The last encounter for a crime on a woman in A.P. was 11 years ago (Acid attack). That's one per decade and hardly a slippery slope. I'll be glad to talk about slippery slope and openly eat my words if the encounters for rape reach, say, 10 or 20 per year. By comparison, rape is on an almost vertical slope that was polished to a shine and sprayed with oil- with a resulting friction coefficient of 0.00000000000000001.

Society degrades and starts to go to hell when justice is not dispensed. There is limit to how much indifference the common man will accept from the justice system, and I would argue, the tolerance to this indifference ought to be low. In India, it is remarkably high and I pray to the Almighty that public patience becomes lower. Perhaps it is such a sign that the pressure for 'fast justice' came from aam janata who have seen too many rape and murder cases not come to a resolution. I for one, will not preach about justice, due process, patience and respect for law to them.

So what if this one case had been fast-tracked and convictions handed out in January 2020. The 1000s of other rape and murder cases will continue at their glacial pace guided by 'due process' while the victims, grieving parents and relatives will continue to wait years and years after this encounter case goes off headlines and we on BRF move on to discussing BJP's prospects in the next election that comes along, and Praveen Patil's analysis of it.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby arvin » 07 Dec 2019 09:25

SriKumar wrote:The fact that this encounter happened is because the judiciary takes years or a decade or more to decide rape/murder cases. The people made most irrelevant by this killing that has been applauded by the public are the judiciary.


No sir. The encounter happened because the accused were from poor families. Such kind of instant 10 day justice is more dangerous than judiciary taking 10+ years . As nachiket gave the example of encounters of mumbai underworld , people who were bumped off were small frys coming from poor families, while the big fish politicos and mafia bossess got away.
I agree, the problem here is slow judiciary. The solution is to speed it up via political means available.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby SriKumar » 07 Dec 2019 09:32

^^^Such analysis is easy to do as long as it excludes the victims- women who have been raped and are waiting for justice (And women and men who have been murdered). I would argue that they need to be considered too , to get a more wholistic and rounded picture. That is what I tried to do in my post rather than just focus on this one case. Slippery slope slips both ways.

I have been hearing about speeding up slow judiciary for ages now. The lawyers on this thread can speak more knowledgeably than I and, I fervently hope, firmly contradict me when I say 'ain't gonna happen in the next 50 years'. The question then is what happens during the interim while people are waiting for the judiciary to speed up.

By the way, yaaaar, no 'Sir' for me. I am just an anonymous poster and not aspiring to or desirous of any 'Sir-dom'. I could even be a madam (in burqua) for all you know. :)

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby darshan » 07 Dec 2019 10:27

Encounters of easy pickings aren't due to slowness of justice system.
I checked the acid attack encounters and it's the same thing. Easy pickings.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Vikas » 07 Dec 2019 16:59

Karan M wrote:
Vikas wrote:Meanwhile some other girl somewhere is getting raped while Media applauds the encounter specialists.


How can you be certain this was the case? Is it merely because these are cops, so they are by necessity crooks or crooked, or sab mile huen hain ji? Could it be possible the politicians and cops are as frustrated as anyone else and decided to make an example of these 4 guys - even if going by mass market belief the cops did an encounter? This may be the cops method to handle the issue of "running from one precinct to another" and to "ensure no other girl somewhere is not getting assaulted". Quips around "Singham movie is over guys" apart, the fact is this is not the first time AP guys have resorted to such methods.
[/quote]

Simple questions -
1. Is it police's job to render Justice and act as Judge ?
2. How do we know that they accused were guilty or that all of them were equally guilty ?
3. Even if we accept all the arguments and assume that fast track court would have decided upon this case , Can someone claim with certainty that court would have given all of them, capital punishment ?
4. Do we really trust Indian Police when it comes to making someone accused especially in high profile cases ? Posters here have given multiple examples.
5. By the way, The frustrated politician first blamed the victim.
6. Would you prefer the same solution if someone in Kashmir accuses Indian soldier of Rape & Murder ?

As much as we all are dismayed and disgusted by rapes, and that Instant justice may also bring gratification, but It has no place in the civilized world. Extra Judicial killings have never lowered the crime rate unless LEA are strengthened along with the whole crumbling Judicial system.

Meanwhile society picks up its clues from LEA and starts killing accused, first the rapists, then burglars and later maybe just the corrupt.
But having said all that, Unless Judicial system improves and actually works, we will see more killings by all and sundry. Otherwise Next time maybe, I too will stand on the side of the cops applauding them for encounter.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby darshan » 07 Dec 2019 18:35

Only thing I noticed is that the public celebrations prevented even sane media people from asking or commenting on contrary points. No one in media even brought up the rape cases in the area or the state in the same timeframe.

With all that focus, no channel picked up other cases to talk about?

Media stopped talking about institution failures.

No one asked simple question like how and why perpetrators' hands and legs were so free to grab and run.

No one asked about how about others that may also want quick justice.

No one asked if encounters would have happened if all were from proper Hyderabad and muslims.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby SriKumar » 07 Dec 2019 18:44

The encounter was a political decision. Supported by the people. Easy pickings is the easier way of characterization. Public anger was not due to easy pickings.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby vishvak » 07 Dec 2019 18:52

No one asked if encounters would have happened if all were from proper Hyderabad and muslims.
more likely if victim were hindoo 'male' in a violent incident. Though that doesn't justify anything like that crime.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby SriKumar » 07 Dec 2019 19:00

Vikas wrote:
Simple questions -
1. Is it police's job to render Justice and act as Judge ?
2. How do we know that they accused were guilty or that all of them were equally guilty ?
3. Even if we accept all the arguments and assume that fast track court would have decided upon this case , Can someone claim with certainty that court would have given all of them, capital punishment ?
4. Do we really trust Indian Police when it comes to making someone accused especially in high profile cases ? Posters here have given multiple examples.
5. By the way, The frustrated politician first blamed the victim.
6. Would you prefer the same solution if someone in Kashmir accuses Indian soldier of Rape & Murder ?

As much as we all are dismayed and disgusted by rapes, and that Instant justice may also bring gratification, but It has no place in the civilized world. Extra Judicial killings have never lowered the crime rate unless LEA are strengthened along with the whole crumbling Judicial system.

Meanwhile society picks up its clues from LEA and starts killing accused, first the rapists, then burglars and later maybe just the corrupt.
But having said all that, Unless Judicial system improves and actually works, we will see more killings by all and sundry. Otherwise Next time maybe, I too will stand on the side of the cops applauding them for encounter.
I'll answer 3 questions of yours that have easy answers: 1, 3 and 4 are to be answered 'No'. Speaking for myself, I do not trust 'confessions' police claim the criminals have given, even in simple/obvious cases. After 3 hours in a police station, anyone will confess to anything.

The L&O system is already broken down- it is not some future situation but already happening. The judicial system much more so than the police system (IMO anyway)- atleast the police are around and visible even if they donot want to register an FIR. My question to you is what about the victims- how long do they wait for justice, and will they EVER get it when cases drag on for years. Will you trust anything that a witness says about something that happened 10 years ago? I will not. Even 2 years is very long time for people to recall events with perfect clarity.....I dont know how such statements are taken seriously in court of law after 5 and 15 years. Yet these are considered a sacrosanct outcome of 'due process'.

The current system favors (and by a big margin) the criminal, lawyers (generally speaking- but not always), judges and politicians. One needs to look no further than the rape victim who was burnt 90% on her way to testify, or the other rape victim 4 months who was hit by a truck hired by a BJP politician owned by a Samajwadi politician? (and her close relatives were killed). There are thousands of cases that dont even make the front page news like these did. THeir suffering is no less, and in some cases even more than the current situation. THe L&O system is already broken down- it is not some future situation but already happened. The question is: how does a society handle its L&O when the supreme authority (in this case the courts) are dysfunctional.
Last edited by SriKumar on 07 Dec 2019 19:17, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby vishvak » 07 Dec 2019 19:06

Just speculating only.. by cutting over support to UT of J&K and utilising funds better each year?!

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby darshan » 07 Dec 2019 19:08

SriKumar wrote:The encounter was a political decision. Supported by the people. Easy pickings is the easier way of characterization. Public anger was not due to easy pickings.

Public anger was channeling towards the govt institutions ineptness and one also needs to see whether it would have been allowed to reach that point if all involved were muslim.

Public anger demanded answers and not encounters. Shame on public too for not getting angered about other Hindu case. I get angered equally when some Hindu is killed. There wasn't even five percent of anger in the same public when Hindu dalit was raped and killed by muslims in the same state few days before this.

Neither there was anger across the country when multiple illegal Bangladeshis raped and killed within last two months.

There's no L&O in India. Yes, breaking news. Public should have been angry for last few decades everyday. Even when population was less and less mobile. Celebrating Hindus should know very well that tomorrow it can be your brother or father being framed and bumped off by this so called top cops who specializes in encountering Hindus majority of times. And, casteism in celebration is also on full display when you're not disturbed when it's Hindus from dalit community and poor.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby SriKumar » 07 Dec 2019 19:23

Yes, thanks for the pearls of wisdom 'public should have been angry everyday'. And everything has to be looked at under the Hindu-Muslim lens. And nothing can be done until that is solved .... Nice. You'll be waiting a long time.....just like the public that you wanted to be angry everyday.

The status quo has carried on for ages now. Fast-tracking this case would not have carried much meaning- to me anyway (I am not saying that an encounter was the answer) because the rest of the mountainous problem is still there but not in the headlines. When the amount of angst reached a certain level, and the system is dysfunctional, people will take law into their own hands (mob lynchings, hiring goondas to get back your loan etc.) or force the authorities to do something draconian. We have seen plenty of cases of the former, now we are seeing cases of the latter.
Last edited by SriKumar on 07 Dec 2019 19:39, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby DharmaB » 07 Dec 2019 19:26

My views on practical policing and judiciary...

In any society it is the fear of mob justice that prevents the crime at the first place. When a weak target is surrounded by masses, no one dares to commit any crime on them, not because of the fear of police or law, but due to fear of mob justice. And practically that fear has to stay, however strong the law, judiciary becomes. And may be this is the reason why we don't want to make any stringent laws against mob lynching. Just think what happens if everything has to be properly taken care as per the procedures and by only law enforcement agencies. It would only bind the hands of good people and embolden the bad to commit crimes if they truly aware of the loopholes in the system.

Just think how the justice was maintained through out the history (especially in India, which was called land of Dharma, in ancient times). It was by applying common sense in assessing the crime, and the criminals in a short span of time by efficient use of available resources, rather than sticking to the idea of perfect execution of procedures. In actuality there is no end to the definition of perfection, and there is no end to the "doubts", because the more one drags and lapse the time, the more imperfect the case becomes hence cannot be maintainable. There has to be a line drawn, where one can confidently prove the crime, then deliver the justice, instead of giving place to doubts using the loopholes in procedures.

It is very true that "Justice delayed is Justice denied".

With all this technology evolved, why it has become so difficult to deliver justice in a speedy manner and in time before it loses its meaning ?
It is because we are hanging on to definitions like "Total Justice" or "Perfect Justice" or "No single innocent should get punished even at the cost of 100 culprits escaping it"... These are not the practicalities of justice system which can hold good for long. It would only lead to the instances more like Hyd encounters and many more mob lynchings in future, which is only a slap on law & justice system to remind every one that it is not working and it needs to be changed to a more practical level where it appears to be working good by results, not just by the definitions.

The Britishers had to be blamed for leaving us into this mess & we are not finding it easy to come out of it.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby SriKumar » 07 Dec 2019 19:47

DharmaB wrote:With all this technology evolved, why it has become so difficult to deliver justice in a speedy manner and in time before it loses its meaning ?
This is very important point that I rarely see people advocating justice and 'due process' bring up. Is there a point in time when justice loses its meaning. There sure is...but difficult to define. However, I dont see any acknowledgement or a discussion of this important point. It is as if it did not matter if the judgement came after 20 years. In civil cases involving money, it can be even longer than that.

It is because we are hanging on to definitions like "Total Justice" or "Perfect Justice" or "No single innocent should get punished even at the cost of 100 culprits escaping it"...
agree 100%.

These are not the practicalities of justice system which can hold good for long. It would only lead to the instances more like Hyd encounters and many more mob lynchings in future, which is only a slap on law & justice system to remind every one that it is not working and it needs to be changed to a more practical level
Exactly what I was trying to say. And if that does not happen, there will be more of mob justice, and whoever can hire muscle is the law. The open support of the public for this encounter is a big slap the justice system (as you said) and (IMHO) is a warning to the justices of their irrelevance. I dont think anything will come of it though.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby darshan » 07 Dec 2019 20:02

Let's get one thing straight that there's no indication of any civil disobedience or mob justice that people are trying to justify encounters on slowness.

All indications for marches and protests were pointing towards many questions that would have to have been answered by the govt institutions.

Or was it that local Cyber businesses didn't want their work schedules be affected by protests and marches? I can see all angles except angry Hindus wanting mob justice.

If a cop felt that there's need for quick justice and wanted to do something about it and he did fake encounters, then he needs to face the music. It's as simple as that even if people find it commendable. Not something that can be tolerated or allowed post saffron terror set up and Kathua episode.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby SriKumar » 07 Dec 2019 20:59

The decision to kill was political and would have to be cleared by the CM. The cops did not need to do any killing. UP has the same cops as before but encounters started after Yogi.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby arshyam » 08 Dec 2019 07:04

DharmaB wrote:The Britishers had to be blamed for leaving us into this mess & we are not finding it easy to come out of it.

We need to stop blaming the British beyond a point - they did not ask us to continue with the colonial administrative machinery post-independence. That was entirely our choice, as was the choice to not think of changing anything over six decades. The fact that the police still operates under an 1861 law written for the benefit of a colonial administration only proves my point. The end result is that this machinery, which includes the whole edifice supported by IAS, IPS and the (judicial) district magistrates, inspires little confidence in the common man. In fact, the common man understands this so well that he is not asking why the poor victims never thought to call the police as a first resort - there is an understanding, even if unwritten, that calling them would not have helped. In any situation, the initial reaction in India is to NOT involve the police, and sadly, it is with good reason. Till we fix that, nothing will change and we will discuss yet another horrendous crime a decade later.

This does not take anything away from the reality of the tough lives of police officers - I am sure an overworked police force is a good contributor to this lack of confidence.

Lastly, I understand this was only a tangential point in your post, DharmaB-ji, but we tend to blame the British for creating a bunch of problems (which they definitely did), but we almost never analyse why we didn't fix those problems and let them fester over time. Heck, when it comes to L&O, we have hardly even tried to reform. This crime in a different country would have involved the police from the get go, and the victim might have been saved at least from death.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Kati » 08 Dec 2019 11:01

Why is the public in general is so much supportive of the alleged encounter?
It's because the public have very little faith in the justice system. Too many criminals get out on bail, and commit more crimes.
Attention must be given to restore some faith in the justice system.
Think of the recent case of alleged rapist out on bail murdering the victim.

There should be a law which must restrict the giving generous bails to alleged violent criminals.
If an alleged criminal gets out on bail, and commits another violent crime, then the judge granting that bail must be held partially
responsible for the second crime.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Vidur » 08 Dec 2019 13:12

Karan M wrote:
Vikas wrote:Encounter was more for getting the rapist monkey off the back rather than sending message to any criminal. Now everyone can have a sigh of relief and go back to regular life. Singham movie is over guys.
Now no one will ask the govt as why there was no cops around or why her sister had to run from one Precinct to another to get the complaint lodged as per media.
Meanwhile some other girl somewhere is getting raped while Media applauds the encounter specialists.


How can you be certain this was the case? Is it merely because these are cops, so they are by necessity crooks or crooked, or sab mile huen hain ji? Could it be possible the politicians and cops are as frustrated as anyone else and decided to make an example of these 4 guys - even if going by mass market belief the cops did an encounter? This may be the cops method to handle the issue of "running from one precinct to another" and to "ensure no other girl somewhere is not getting assaulted". Quips around "Singham movie is over guys" apart, the fact is this is not the first time AP guys have resorted to such methods.

https://theprint.in/india/social-media- ... ld/328497/
https://www.freepressjournal.in/india/w ... rs-in-2008

VC Sajjanar has also played key role in the encounter killing of naxal Nayeemuddin alias Nayeem. Back then he was the IG Special Intelligence Branch that deals with the naxals. Nayeem was shot dead in the Hyderabad outskirts.


I agree.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Vidur » 08 Dec 2019 13:14

Kati wrote:Why is the public in general is so much supportive of the alleged encounter?
It's because the public have very little faith in the justice system. Too many criminals get out on bail, and commit more crimes.
Attention must be given to restore some faith in the justice system.
Think of the recent case of alleged rapist out on bail murdering the victim.

There should be a law which must restrict the giving generous bails to alleged violent criminals.
If an alleged criminal gets out on bail, and commits another violent crime, then the judge granting that bail must be held partially
responsible for the second crime.


Judiciary in India is almost like a sovereign nation who's values are drawn from colonial masters interpersed with deep corruption, ego and sense of entitlement. Reform is extremely difficult.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby Vikas » 08 Dec 2019 16:03

I sometimes wonder why there aren't more encounter deaths in India knowing that the criminals are hardly afraid of Police or Judiciary hence give a damn, Police which is brutal to a large extent and is armed to some extent. These two are chemicals sufficient to cause a explosive reaction.

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Re: Internal Security Watch

Postby sanjayc » 08 Dec 2019 16:15

Vidur wrote:
Kati wrote:Why is the public in general is so much supportive of the alleged encounter?
It's because the public have very little faith in the justice system. Too many criminals get out on bail, and commit more crimes.
Attention must be given to restore some faith in the justice system.
Think of the recent case of alleged rapist out on bail murdering the victim.

There should be a law which must restrict the giving generous bails to alleged violent criminals.
If an alleged criminal gets out on bail, and commits another violent crime, then the judge granting that bail must be held partially
responsible for the second crime.


Judiciary in India is almost like a sovereign nation who's values are drawn from colonial masters interpersed with deep corruption, ego and sense of entitlement. Reform is extremely difficult.


The major cause of this debasement is the direct entry of lawyers into senior judiciary. Most of these lawyers are crooks. This needs to end and a National Judicial Service constituted.


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