Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 22 Nov 2019 09:26



Brilliant!! Provides strong OIT support and demolishes several AIT lies. I love how multidisciplinary scientists from India are taking apart AIT.

Lie #1: the original lie. There was no Saraswati. There was only an Indus civilization
Lie #2: there was a Saraswati, but it was the corrupted version of Harahvaiti, which was a river in Afghanistan that the Aryans first encountered
Lie #3: Saraswati river existed. But it was seasonal. The civilization depended on monsoon rains & were subject to the vagaries of the river

Reality #1: Saraswati existed. In modern times, the Gaggar Hakra flows in its paleochannel. The original river is very ancient: 80k years old :shock:
Reality #2: It was big & perennial from 80kya - 20kya. Importantly, it was perennial 9kya - 4.5 kya (Saraswati/Harappan civilization time window)
Reality #3: It supported the most extensive Bronze Age civilization
Reality #4: The Rig Veda spoke of this very same, massive Saraswati river, that was "as wide as the ocean" & "flowed from Himalayas to the sea"
Reality #5: Since the Saraswati started breaking up around 4500 years ago, it marked the zenith & subsequent decline of the Harappan civilization
Reality #6: The above dates place Rig Veda comfortably prior to 4500 years ago
Reality #7: After 4500 years ago, the Saraswati civilization de-urbanized, people moved upstream and downstream of the river

sudarshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2544
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 05 Jan 2020 21:35

Rig Vedic references to Yahweh?

Disappointed in above article. Repeatedly makes the claim of "Rig Veda mentions Yahweh multiple times," but doesn't present a single verse in corroboration.

Does the Rig Veda really mention Yahweh?

If the word Yahweh had been used only infrequently in Hindu scriptures, we might have assumed that it was an orchestrated import. But on the contrary, the word appears dozens of times in the Rig Veda, in multiple declensions, as a noun, a verb, an adverb or an adjective.


You'd think a claim like the above would be easy to back up with verses.

sudarshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2544
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 06 Jan 2020 08:40

One of the commenters seems to have torn into the author of that article. I wish the comment hadn't been that rude, but I agree with the gist of it.

Either the author took Swarajyamag for a ride, or somebody took the author himself for a ride. Either way, Swarajyamag's credibility has taken a hit in my eyes, if they're going to publish such arrant nonsense as the above with no oversight or cross-checking.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 06 Jan 2020 09:44

Shoddy article. I think Swarajya is probably understaffed and sometimes an farticle likes this slips through the cracks.

Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21175
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem » 06 Jan 2020 11:03

sudarshan wrote:Rig Vedic references to Yahweh?Disappointed in above article. Repeatedly makes the claim of "Rig Veda mentions Yahweh multiple times," but doesn't present a single verse in corroboration.Does the Rig Veda really mention Yahweh?
If the word Yahweh had been used only infrequently in Hindu scriptures, we might have assumed that it was an orchestrated import. But on the contrary, the word appears dozens of times in the Rig Veda, in multiple declensions, as a noun, a verb, an adverb or an adjective.

You'd think a claim like the above would be easy to back up with verses.

Author may have picked up the idea from here
http://www.himavanti.org/en/c/himavanti ... ndian-veda

sudarshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2544
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 08 Jan 2020 04:52

Prem wrote: Author may have picked up the idea from here
http://www.himavanti.org/en/c/himavanti ... ndian-veda


That link does quote verses with locations, thanks. And there are also a lot of "yahvah"s in those verses. The correspondence with "Yahweh," if any, is at best tenuous, just based on similar sounds. Anyways....

Rony
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3281
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 23:29

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rony » 30 Jan 2020 07:20

https://twitter.com/NirajRai3/status/12 ... 53057?s=20


Another Breakthrough -
introgression of indicine-derived DNA into Central Italian white cattle breeds, possibly as the result of several gene flow events during agro-pastrolist Out of India Migration about 8000 years ago.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-57880-4


Deans
BRFite
Posts: 1359
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Deans » 08 May 2020 14:41

I'm not sure this book has been mentioned so far - I've just finished reading `The Sarasvati Civilisation' by Maj Gen GD Bakshi .
Its free on Kindle unlimited - though I would urge Rakshaks to buy it.
The author needs no introduction and I've had the pleasure of knowing him personally - one of the few writing on this subject, who has a pro India / Indic view.

The book has a great deal of research across multiple disciplines - geology, archaeology, remote sensing, religious texts, linguistics etc.
Impressive that he has moved from writing on military subjects to a book in this area- which required a huge amount of research at the age of 70
with no backup (a good editor would have add more value though). A must read for all true Indians and a book that needs to be widely publicised.

Rony
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3281
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 23:29

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rony » 12 May 2020 02:58

'Majority South Asians are descendants of Harappans'

"There was no Aryan invasion or migration but movement was happening throughout from the beginning of agriculture in South Asia....neither Steppes pastorals nor Iranian farmers contributed to the South Asian ancestry," he said.

According to him, in Rakhigarhi samples they found that Harappans were not carrying any genetic signatures from Iranian-related ancestry. Genetically, Steppe introgression has not happened until 1000 BCE. Mixing with Steppes was gradual and not sudden and thus rejects the invasion or replacement of the local South Asian with Steppes.

Prof Shinde said that it was also evident that there was a significant movement of Harappans towards Central Asia. There is presence of Harappan-like ancestry in Turkmenistan and Iran contemporary to Mature Indus Valley era. The genetic results also indicate that Vedic knowledge was indigenous and not brought by so-called Indo-Aryans.

Rony
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3281
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 23:29

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rony » 26 May 2020 03:20

Proto Indo-European Mythology: Nick Allen Was More Of A Seer Than We Realised

Nick Allen has repeatedly shown that in many parallel motifs in the Mahabharata and in Homer’s epics, the Indian version contains a spiritual element lacking in the European version.

So, yoga existed in the Indo-European homeland, but the Greeks lost it.

The logical explanation, which stares him in the face but which he as an invasionist fails to draw, is that this dimension was lost in the rough and tumble of the trek to their historical habitat.

The most precious elements are the ones that get lost most easily, such as in a corpse, where the brain starts disintegrating at once whereas the skeleton can last for centuries.

Similarly, the twists in the story were more or less preserved but the subtle yoga teachings in it were gradually forgotten, with only a remnant like the Single Eye reminding of it.

In that case, India was their common homeland, but only the stay-behind Indians had the comfort of a stable situation where they could preserve the most subtle layer of their stories.

The invasionist explanation would be that the Aryan barbarians did not have this profound layer to their narratives, but reinterpreted these once they interiorised the native Indian tradition of yoga.

This is not impossible, but in that case they would not so much have added a new content to their old stories, but adopted the appropriate aboriginal stories that transmitted the yoga doctrines.

This promising first impression needs to be verified in closer research, informed by a knowledge of Indian spirituality.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 02 Jul 2020 00:51

Sharing some amazing new insights by a Russian Archaeologist Dr. Alexandr Semenenko. His work/book promises to be as pathbreaking as those of Shrikant Talageri.



Key points

1) AIT crapologists have been lying about Sintashta/Andronovo "war chariots". Dr. Semenenko shows that historically, there has been a difference between a horse-drawn cart (vs) a horse-drawn war chariot. All the archaeological evidence we have from Sintashta etc are meagre wheel fragments. Based on less than 1/8th of a wheel fragment, an entire war-chariot with axles, stands, scaffolding etc has been cooked up. They're most likely carts.

2) He affirms that the Sanauli chariot is a true horse-drawn war chariot. Its body/wheels have been extremely well preserved and satisfy the requirements of a war chariot. Not to mention other finds in the grave like antenna swords, copper helmets etc

More posts to come on this .....

sudarshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2544
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 04 Oct 2020 06:16

XPost from Strat thread:

In case Shri Nilesh Oak is still following this thread, or if somebody has his ear (assuming he isn't already aware of this - for all I know, he might even be a mover behind this):

darshan wrote:
Keshubhai Patel reappointed as Chairman of Shri Somnath Trust for one more year
https://www.deshgujarat.com/2020/09/30/ ... more-year/
...
Prime Minister Narendrabhai Modi during the meeting suggested to plan a development project with scientific basis regarding Indian dating of Shri Krishna era, Dwapar to Kaliyug shift and Vaikunth of Shri Krishna, while discussing the development of Golok Dham in Somnath, the place where Shri Krishna left his body.
...

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 05 Oct 2020 00:04

An excellent article that talks about the missing link between Harappan civilication and the Vedic people. Provides good evidence about how the fire altars at Kalibangan etc were really Vedic altars. Also debunks claims by charlatans like Anthony who tried to make Kurgan burials look like Ashwamedha sacrifice

https://www.indictoday.com/long-reads/roots-vedic-rituals-harappan-fire-worship-vedic-parallels/

ashbhee
BRFite
Posts: 118
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 07:05

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ashbhee » 05 Oct 2020 11:34

Michael Witzel has published paper critiquing Talageri Ji's work. It has 10 points where Talageri ji is wrong according to to Witzel. At places you fell like you are reading a tabloid website and not an academic paper, I only eyeballed it. I cannot wait for Talageri Ji to respond to this and tear it apart. I will just wait for Talageri Ji's response and not waste my time reading this.

Edit:
Link removed.
Last edited by ashbhee on 06 Oct 2020 00:24, edited 1 time in total.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 05 Oct 2020 13:34

Request you to kindly remove the link. Let's link Talageri's response, which is sure to come as you mention.

Witzel is a long-in-the-tooth joker. No need for us to give publicity to his garbage

All these years, Western Indologists were afraid of taking on Talageri because of his rigor. So, they pretend like he & his work don't exist. Witzel is now asking for it.

ashbhee
BRFite
Posts: 118
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 07:05

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ashbhee » 06 Oct 2020 00:24

Prem Kumar wrote:Request you to kindly remove the link. Let's link Talageri's response, which is sure to come as you mention.

Witzel is a long-in-the-tooth joker. No need for us to give publicity to his garbage

All these years, Western Indologists were afraid of taking on Talageri because of his rigor. So, they pretend like he & his work don't exist. Witzel is now asking for it.


Link removed.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 21 Oct 2020 14:30

Another blow to AIT & support for OIT

Researcher Chakraborthy confirms pervasive milk-product-usage in the Indus Valley Civilization from at least as far back as 2500 BCE!!

Its interesting to note that the earliest lactase-persistence in Europe was discovered in an individual there between 2450 and 2140 BCE

In conjunction with genetic, textual (Rig Vedic) & archaelogical data about how Zebu bulls colonized the West, the picture is becoming very clear. Pastoral Indus Valley people moved West, gave them cattle-rearing techniques and brought language/civilization to them.

Do you like cheese? You can thank the Indus Valley Civilization for it

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 22 Oct 2020 12:39

The evidence for OIT is coming thick & fast!!

New paper by Gyaneshwar Chaubey & others. They analyzed ancient-mtDNA from Mesopotamia and demonstrate that these are descendants of people from the Indian Subcontinent. The aDNA is from samples ranging from 2500 BCE till 500 AD.

The authors also say that its possible that the Sumerian civilization was founded by Indian immigrants (though more proof is needed)

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0073682

For instance, it is commonly accepted that the founders of Sumerian civilization came from the outside of the region, their exact origin is, however, still a matter of debate. It is suggested that migrants of Iranian, Indian [32], [33] or even Tibetan affinity [34] founded the Sumerian civilization, which suggestion can be supported by comparing the Tibeto-Burman and Sumerian languages [35]. The migrants could have entered Mesopotamia earlier than 45 centuries ago, during the lifetime of the oldest studied individual, as the Tibetan Plateau was peopled more than 20 Kyrs ago [21], [36]. However, one also should consider the possibility that studied individuals belonged to the groups of itinerant merchants moving along a trade route passing near or through the region, since a recent comparative study of strontium, oxygen, and carbon isotopes content in enamel indicates that people from Indus Valley were present in southern Mesopotamia 3 Kyrs BC [37].

hanumadu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4831
Joined: 11 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby hanumadu » 22 Oct 2020 14:28

^^^
Published: September 11, 2013


Looks like an old paper.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 22 Oct 2020 20:27

Good catch. But its an important data point in favor of OIT & I hadn't seen before now

ashbhee
BRFite
Posts: 118
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 07:05

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ashbhee » 24 Oct 2020 02:43

Not directly related to OIT but some of you might find this interesting.
11th century Kannada inscription referring Bangalore by its name. This is from the time of Ganga dynasty.

https://bangaloremirror.indiatimes.com/ ... 010648.cms

ashbhee
BRFite
Posts: 118
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 07:05

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ashbhee » 25 Oct 2020 06:09

Shrikant Talageri Ji was on Cārvāka Podcast Oct 21st 2020.


Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 26 Oct 2020 19:10

Dr. Gyaneshwar Chaubey demolishes another dumb lie by Witzel. Readers of this forum would recall Witzel's half-baked theory about how Mundas were the original inhabitants (the "Adivasi" bunkum) of India.

Y-chromosome analysis by Dr. Chaubey has shown that the Munda-founders entered India from South East Asia as recent as 3000 BCE. There were 4 founders who likely brought in the Munda languages & the Tibeto-Burman language into India

The AIT pack of cards is falling down one by one

Dr. Chaubey exposes Witzel's Munda lie

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2658
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 31 Oct 2020 11:56

Brilliant paper by Kalyan Sekhar Chakraborthy et al. Demonstrates with high rigor the consumption of milk & milk-products in mature Harappan times at the very least & possibly going back to 6000 BCE when cattle domestication was first done in the region.

Analysis was done based on absorption of fatty acids in the pottery used for cooking/storing. Pottery samples are from what is modern-day Gujarat

Implications

1) Pastoralism/cattle-herding was well developed in the IVC, likely before any other civilization & certainly the Steppes
2) Lactose tolerance mutation likely evolved in Indian subcontinent and it spread from here to the West
3) The paper shows that the cattle didn't forage in the wild but consumed agricultural crops. Supports the Rakhigarhi aDNA & other studies, which show that agriculture was an independent development in the IVC and likely predated even that in the Fertile Crescent. Busts another myth that India *imported* agriculture knowhow from the Fertile Crescent

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-72963-y


Return to “Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yagnasri and 69 guests