Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

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Prem Kumar
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 13 Dec 2020 17:26

Hi: am using IE terminology because the data supporting the assertion that "Indian and most European languages belong to a family" is quite strong (though individual languages may vary in the strength of affinity)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 13 Dec 2020 20:03

Prem Kumar wrote:Hi: am using IE terminology because the data supporting the assertion that "Indian and most European languages belong to a family" is quite strong (though individual languages may vary in the strength of affinity)


So if I understand correctly - Indian and European languages *are* related, with the original source being India (so no proto IE); scripts being different between India and Europe could be because of Greek adopting a convenient script from Asia to represent its sounds; scripts within India are very much related, being also of greater sophistication than what is currently in use in Europe, from the point of view of organizing the consonants based on point of articulation, etc. (i.e. - a lot of hard research went into designing the script); differences in scripts between India and Europe does not knock IE?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 26 Dec 2020 00:27

^^ Correct.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 26 Dec 2020 00:41

1) Exciting development from a new area of research! By analyzing proteins from dental samples, researchers have ascertained that by ~1700 BCE, people in the Mediterranean region like Israel were already consuming turmeric, sesame & bananas from the Saraswathi Civilization!

2) Another interesting datapoint: King Ramesses 2 was buried circa 1200 BCE, with peppercorns from India

Indians were running the most powerful economy & trade-routes during those days. Puts paid to the AIT nonsense that some pastoralist nomads came in from the Stepps to give us culture/language.

3) What's very interesting to me is "bananas". Its perishable. So, if the Levant region people were eating them, it means that either the Indus Ships were very fast/reliable. Or Indian immigrants into the Levant had imported the seeds and locally growing those crops. Not sure if the latter is possible, given the climactic conditions in the Levant. In either case, very strong case for OIT

4) Another interesting data-point is that, as a Twitter handle brought out:

What is also known for sure is 1600 BC #Babylonia(South #Iraq) was under #Indoaryans #Kassites (called #Kashi), #Assyria (North Iraq & #Syria) was Indoaryan #Mittani next to #Indoeuropeon #Hittite in #Turkey, they lasted for 300 years, their language & culture for centuries more


These Out-of-India emigrants, who established powerful empires in Iraq, Syria, Turkey etc, would have facilitated trade from their mother-country, i.e India. They were the ruling elites!

https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/12/16/2014956117

Curry spices and exotic fruits from Asia reached the Mediterranean and were being eaten by Europeans 3,700 years ago, study claims

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 26 Dec 2020 01:25

Combine the above introduction of foods, with 2 other data points:

1) Circa 1600 BCE, there is an influx of Bos Indicus (Zebu bull) in the Levant. See the Twitter thread below for pictures of Zebu bulls in Israel. Zebu bulls had been introduced by Indians into Mesopotamia a 1000 years earlier (3rd millenium BCE)

https://twitter.com/Dauhshanti/status/1342135220561014785

2) In the 3rd millenium BCE, tin-bronze artifacts representing a new culture (possibly elites) made their appearance in Anatolia and the Aegean. These artifacts were made in the Indus valley and the copper came from the Aravalli hills (based on lead-isotope analysis). See Twitter thread the research paper below

https://twitter.com/anilksuri/status/1341232269772476416

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/295148527_Early_Bronze_Age_Metallurgy_in_the_North-East_Aegean

3) In a nutshell, starting in 3rd millenium BCE (possibly earlier) and continuing into 2nd millenium BCE, there is a significant immigration of elites from India into North and South Iraq, Israel, Aegean & the Mediterranean area, Anatolia etc. These elites brought with them cattle (& rats too), tin-bronzes, new kinds of food and other tech advances. They also setup trading outposts, ports and other channels of commerce. Some of these channels might have already existed. They must have been strengthened by the migrating elites. This points to multiple Out-of-India waves of people, goods, animals & tech!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 01 Jan 2021 21:03

Tantalizing post by aDNA (Rakhigarhi) researched Dr. Niraj Rai on Dec 30, 2020. Year 2021 promises to be exciting!!

https://twitter.com/NirajRai3/status/1344333524745166850

Massive migrations from Steppes to Bronze Age India was indeed a myth. We have gathered Ancient DNA evidence now. The findings will be out next year. Thanks to the great efforts of scientists from India, USA, UK and others. Warm Greetings for upcoming 2021!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rony » 02 Jan 2021 22:26

Prem Kumar wrote:Tantalizing post by aDNA (Rakhigarhi) researched Dr. Niraj Rai on Dec 30, 2020. Year 2021 promises to be exciting!!

https://twitter.com/NirajRai3/status/1344333524745166850

Massive migrations from Steppes to Bronze Age India was indeed a myth. We have gathered Ancient DNA evidence now. The findings will be out next year. Thanks to the great efforts of scientists from India, USA, UK and others. Warm Greetings for upcoming 2021!


AMT proponents will argue that they never claimed "massive migrations from Steppes to India". Their claim is small waves of immigrants migrated from Central Asia to Sindhu-Sarasvati valley after the collapse of Sindhu-Saraswati civilization and these new small groups of immigrants inserted their language Sanskrit through elite dominance to the remnants of the Sindhu-Saraswati population who moved further east by then . To disprove AMT in their eyes, it would have to be proved that IE languages originated in Indian subcontinent.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 03 Jan 2021 11:03

Yes, they will. But:

1) Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The burden of proof is on them
2) Corollary: claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence

In short, we should move on towards internalizing the idea of OIT, develop more scholarship around it & teach it to our kids. Those who have a political agenda to further AIT will accept no level of proof

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 08 Jan 2021 17:41

Dr. Shiv's book on AIT is finally out! Please buy your copy on Kindle below. I just did.

Aryan Invasion: Myth or Fact?: Uncovering the evidence

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby disha » 09 Jan 2021 01:59

Prem Kumar wrote:Dr. Shiv's book on AIT is finally out! Please buy your copy on Kindle below. I just did.

Aryan Invasion: Myth or Fact?: Uncovering the evidence


I bought 5 copies of it (paperback) and will be buying more. Please buy four and gift three and ask them to gift to additional three. Spread it out to your younglings, in schools & colleges and their teachers as well. If anybody has an issue with you and states that Aryans are a fact, then ask them to argue based on facts and ask them to direct those facts to the authors.

My daughter's history teacher climbed down from "Aryan Invasion Theory" to "Aryan Diffusion Theory"! That is a huge climbdown in a generation. The Aryans never invaded. They just "diffused" everywhere!!

Anyway the good part about the Aryan diffusion theory is that it opens up the possibility of aryan suffusion theory as well :rotfl: The aryans could have suffused all things indic and took with them to europe from central asia. Exended the suffusion more then the aryans become so suffused with indics that they are indics themselves. :-)

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Vayutuvan » 10 Jan 2021 08:25

Is it possible to buy from US on this site?


Prem Kumar
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 10 Jan 2021 12:09

Also, after reading, lets all leave detailed reviews on Amazon (explaining why the concepts in this book are important), so that we can help future buyers.


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 13 Jan 2021 16:16

This might have been shared before. An excellent overview of the extensive evidence of spoked wheels across a huge geographical & time-swath, in terracota, copper etc. Starting all the way from Early Harappa, which makes ours the oldest civilization to use spoked wheels.

Not surprising, considering that we dominated worldwide trade & were the most hi-tech civilization

https://www.academia.edu/41275548/Invention_and_Development_of_Spoked_Wheel_A_Harappan_Perspective

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby SandeepA » 13 Jan 2021 17:26


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rony » 26 Jan 2021 07:48

Two OIT supporting scholars got Padma awards for 2021. Archeologist B B Lal got Padma Vibhushan. Greek Indologist Nicholas Kazanas got Padma Sri.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 26 Jan 2021 10:19

Fantastic! Hope they honor Shrikant Talageri & Koenraad Elst also soon.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 02 Mar 2021 00:36

A new, good Twitter handle to follow: @TrueShoebill

She has pointed out some key papers that pre-dated Semenenko's work but reinforce the same point, viz. the Sintashta burials were of carts & not chariots. Most definitely not war chariots.

https://sci-hub.st/10.1017/s0003598x00084192 --> by the authors Littauer, M. A., & Crouwel, J. H. (1996)

From the above paper: they argue that, based on the dimensions, these Sintashta carts would be too unstable for anything more than ceremonial use

The shortest ancient nave of which we know on a two-wheeler is 34 cm in length, and the great majority are 40-45 cm .. The long naves of ancient 2-wheelers were required by the material used: wooden naves revolving on wooden axles cannot fit tightly, as recent metal ones do.

The short, hence loosely fitting nave will have a tendency to wobble, and it was in order to reduce this that the nave was lengthened. A wobbling nave will soon damage all elements of the wheel and put all parts of the vehicle under stress.

If the vehicle should hit a boulder or a tree stump, the wheel rim would lose its verticality and, so close to the side of the body, could damage that as well as itself.


Feku Anthony, in his book, made references to the above paper but sidestepped the arguments because he had no counter.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 02 Mar 2021 01:04

A well-researched piece by Jaideepsingh Rathod, where he argues why the "White Steppe language incursion into Indus" has no ground to stand on.

https://www.brownpundits.com/2021/03/01/the-fair-skinned-sintashta-folks-did-not-spread-indo-aryan-languages-in-india/

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby AshishA » 02 Mar 2021 19:03

Has anyone posted on this? I am re posting it in case it was missed. Sanauli's chariot carbon dating done. Its around 1900 BC. It demolishes the AIT. The link to the article is below.

https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/carb ... ion-theory

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Arima » 02 Mar 2021 22:48

AshishA wrote:Has anyone posted on this? I am re posting it in case it was missed. Sanauli's chariot carbon dating done. Its around 1900 BC. It demolishes the AIT. The link to the article is below.

https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/carb ... ion-theory


very nice article.

more burial we uncover faster AIT theory can be buried for ever. we need to reclassify sanskrit away from Indo European language and also do away with word dravida language. this word is lingering for over 100 years with no real proof of dravidan language, or race or ethnicity. this should drive deep into heart of dravida polity who are nothing but BIF.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 03 Mar 2021 13:29

AshishA wrote:Has anyone posted on this? I am re posting it in case it was missed. Sanauli's chariot carbon dating done. Its around 1900 BC. It demolishes the AIT. The link to the article is below.

https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/carb ... ion-theory


I think this was posted before, but its a good article. Worth posting/reading again.

I believe aDNA from Sanauli is being analyzed. Lets see.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 03 Mar 2021 13:32

Must-watch video! "Secrets of Sanauli"

Its been getting very good reviews and has interviews with the key people involved in the project like Prof Manjul etc

https://www.facebook.com/gurucharan.kamal.5/videos/2869749993261020


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