Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
ShauryaT
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5350
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 06:06

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by ShauryaT »

peter wrote: एकाचेतत्सरस्वती नदीनां शुचिर्यती गिरिभ्य आ समुद्रात्।RV 7.95.2
Pure in her course from the mountains to the oceans,

अम्बितमे नदीतमे देवितमे सरस्वति।
अप्रशस्ता इव स्मसि प्रशस्तिमम्ब नस्कृधि || - RV 2.41.16
Best of mothers, best of rivers, best of goddesses Sarsawati,
we are untrained and ignorant. Give us knowledge and wisdom.

इयं शुष्मेभिर्बिसखा इवारुजत्सानु गिरीणां तविषेभिरूर्मिभिः।
पारावतघ्नीमवसे सुवृक्तिभिः सरस्वतीमा विवासेम धीतिभिः॥ - RV 6.61.2
O Saraswati, your mighty currents break the mountains as easily as lotus stems. Let us invite with holy hymns and songs.

यस्या अनन्तो अह्रुतस्त्वेषश्चरिष्णुरर्णवः।अमश्चरति रोरुवत्॥ - RV 6.61.8

Whose limitless, unbroken flow, swift moving with rapid rush comes forward with a roar.
OK, can you make sense of all the saraswati verses, when saraswati is a physical river?
Below from RV 6.61 on Sarasvati.
1. To Vadhryasva when. be worshipped her with gifts she gave fierce Divodāsa, canceller of debts.
Consumer of the churlish niggard, one and all, thine, O Sarasvatī, are these effectual boons.
2 She with her might, like one who digs for lotus-stems, hath burst with her strong waves the ridges of the hills.
Let us invite with songs and holy hymns for help Sarasvatī who slayeth the Paravatas.
3 Thou castest down, Sarasvatī, those who scorned the Gods, the brood of every Bṛsaya skilled in magic arts.
Thou hast discovered rivers for the tribes of men, and, rich in wealth! made poison flow away from them.
4 May the divine Sarasvatī, rich in her wealth, protect us well,
Furthering all our thoughts with might
5 Whoso, divine Sarasvatī, invokes thee where the prize is set,
Like Indra when he smites the foe.
6 Aid us, divine Sarasvad, thou who art strong in wealth and power
Like Pūṣan, give us opulence.
7 Yea, this divine Sarasvatī, terrible with her golden path,
Foe-slayer, claims our eulogy.
8 Whose limitless unbroken flood, swift-moving with a rapid rush,
Comes onward with tempestuous roar.
9 She hath spread us beyond all foes, beyond her Sisters, Holy One,
As Sūrya spreadeth out the days.
10 Yea, she most dear amid dear stream, Seven-sistered, graciously inclined,
Sarasvatī hath earned our praise.
11 Guard us from hate Sarasvatī, she who hath filled the realms of earth,
And that wide tract, the firmament!
12 Seven-sistered, sprung from threefold source, the Five Tribes' prosperer, she must be
Invoked in every deed of might.
13 Marked out by majesty among the Mighty Ones, in glory swifter than the other rapid Streams,
Created vast for victory like a chariot, Sarasvatī must be extolled by every sage.
14 Guide us, Sarasvatī, to glorious treasure: refuse us not thy milk, nor spurn us from thee.
Gladly accept our friendship and obedience: let us not go from thee to distant countries.
[/quote]

I personally do not have an understanding of Shiksha, Vyakarana, Nirukta, Nighantu, Chhanda, Jyotish, Kalpa, etc to make my own determinations and at least two Indian authors steeped into the practices of the system disagree with the Griffith based transliterations used above. I will have to rely on their judgment as over ruling these transliterations of Griffith along with a severe critique of Sayana by both Swami Dayananda Sarasvati and Sri Aurobindo. If you can provide translations of works by those steeped into our traditions with knowledge of the above elements then I am more than willing to read and understand these alternate view points.

The verses to Agni, Indra and who the Dasyus are more absurd.

Added: In the above, what are the chances that Griffith had Poseidon in mind when he enquired on Saraswati and Sayanna told him Saraswati is the lost/mythical river and the goddess has magical powers of learning.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by shiv »

Nilesh Oak wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:
Genetically speaking, there seems to be no trace of any genetically significant movement of Indo-European people into Europe either (unless it is the farmers, but linguists think that 8000 years ago is too far back. The last population-genetically significant influx of people into India was 12,000 years ago or earlier.) /ufg_paleogenetik/publications/2013/Lazaridis-2013.pdf
A Gupta ji,

What genetic evidence (studies, etc.) lead to the evidence of significant influx of people into India around 12000 years ago (~ 10,000 BCE) or earlier?

TIA

Nilesh
None AFAIK. The "ASI/ANI" mix was more than 12000 years ago. But the interesting marker M 17 originated near Gujarat and went all the way to central Asia, Russia and Poland.. But another marker M 548 originated in Poland 6000 years ago and is not found in India. So no movement from there in the last 6000 years
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Nilesh Oak »

ShauryaT wrote:
peter wrote: एकाचेतत्सरस्वती नदीनां शुचिर्यती गिरिभ्य आ समुद्रात्।RV 7.95.2
Pure in her course from the mountains to the oceans,

अम्बितमे नदीतमे देवितमे सरस्वति।
अप्रशस्ता इव स्मसि प्रशस्तिमम्ब नस्कृधि || - RV 2.41.16
Best of mothers, best of rivers, best of goddesses Sarsawati,
we are untrained and ignorant. Give us knowledge and wisdom.

इयं शुष्मेभिर्बिसखा इवारुजत्सानु गिरीणां तविषेभिरूर्मिभिः।
पारावतघ्नीमवसे सुवृक्तिभिः सरस्वतीमा विवासेम धीतिभिः॥ - RV 6.61.2
O Saraswati, your mighty currents break the mountains as easily as lotus stems. Let us invite with holy hymns and songs.

यस्या अनन्तो अह्रुतस्त्वेषश्चरिष्णुरर्णवः।अमश्चरति रोरुवत्॥ - RV 6.61.8

Whose limitless, unbroken flow, swift moving with rapid rush comes forward with a roar.
OK, can you make sense of all the saraswati verses, when saraswati is a physical river?
Below from RV 6.61 on Sarasvati.
1. To Vadhryasva when. be worshipped her with gifts she gave fierce Divodāsa, canceller of debts.
Consumer of the churlish niggard, one and all, thine, O Sarasvatī, are these effectual boons.
2 She with her might, like one who digs for lotus-stems, hath burst with her strong waves the ridges of the hills.
Let us invite with songs and holy hymns for help Sarasvatī who slayeth the Paravatas.
3 Thou castest down, Sarasvatī, those who scorned the Gods, the brood of every Bṛsaya skilled in magic arts.
Thou hast discovered rivers for the tribes of men, and, rich in wealth! made poison flow away from them.
4 May the divine Sarasvatī, rich in her wealth, protect us well,
Furthering all our thoughts with might
5 Whoso, divine Sarasvatī, invokes thee where the prize is set,
Like Indra when he smites the foe.
6 Aid us, divine Sarasvad, thou who art strong in wealth and power
Like Pūṣan, give us opulence.
7 Yea, this divine Sarasvatī, terrible with her golden path,
Foe-slayer, claims our eulogy.
8 Whose limitless unbroken flood, swift-moving with a rapid rush,
Comes onward with tempestuous roar.
9 She hath spread us beyond all foes, beyond her Sisters, Holy One,
As Sūrya spreadeth out the days.
10 Yea, she most dear amid dear stream, Seven-sistered, graciously inclined,
Sarasvatī hath earned our praise.
11 Guard us from hate Sarasvatī, she who hath filled the realms of earth,
And that wide tract, the firmament!
12 Seven-sistered, sprung from threefold source, the Five Tribes' prosperer, she must be
Invoked in every deed of might.
13 Marked out by majesty among the Mighty Ones, in glory swifter than the other rapid Streams,
Created vast for victory like a chariot, Sarasvatī must be extolled by every sage.
14 Guide us, Sarasvatī, to glorious treasure: refuse us not thy milk, nor spurn us from thee.
Gladly accept our friendship and obedience: let us not go from thee to distant countries.
ShauryaT ji

Is it fair to say that you are agreeing (or at a minimum.. accepting as one of the many legitimate meanings) with translations of verses provided by Peter ji?

I read translation of Griffith provided by you. Recognizing that translation is a challenge (this can be seen in translations of those who have attempted translation within our tradition.....I have few in Hindi, in Marathi (in part) ), I can see the meaning of river Sarasvati through Griffith translation.
--
You ask, if all the verses wherever 'Sarasvati' appears can be translated with meaning that is consistent with river Sarasvati. This is a good question. I don't know the answer. It is certainly on my projects to do (way down in priority due to other active projects). However, I also want to point out that if few of the references to 'Sarasvati' from Rigveda do not appear consistent with 'River' symbolism/meaning, that by itself does not affect the argument for interpretation of 'Sarasvati' as river in other places. After all Sanskrit words (I Know .. I know.. :).. the arguments... Rigveda is NOT in Sanskrit...and all that) do carry multiple meanings (not just dual) and depending on accent + hrasva or dirgha, may mean different things. In addition, Rigveda is in the form of poetry.. and this also means.. sometime the meaning is to be taken literally, other times allegorically and so on. That is where those who are mighty knowledgeable than you and me can shed some light, if they choose to and are wiling.

The discussion can take places with specifics and by sticking to specific references (not some general comments). Thank you.

Well, we will continue our efforts....

Thank you for posting specific translations (both you and Peter ji).
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Nilesh Oak »

^^
Another sincere attempt in deciphering the meaning of Vedas (not limited to history and geography) is by Dr. P V Vartak.

I have the book. I have shuffled through it, however have not read with the attention and time it deserves.

For those who may be interested. The copy I have is in Marathi. I hope it is also been translated in English.

'Vaidic Vijnan va Veda-Kala-Nirnay' by Dr. P V Vartak (in Marathi).. First Published 2004. The copy I have is from 2012.

Regards,
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Nilesh Oak »

matrimc wrote:Nilesh: I acquired a book from some old book sale which I thought might be of interest to you.

Archaeological Atlas of the World by David and Ruth Whitehouse

If you are interested, please say so - I will mail it to you. If you do not want it, then I will send it to anybody else on BRF who is interested (in the US only please) and willing to give me their US postal address (home or PO Box).
Matrimc,

I would love to have it, however, if someone else who is actively working on this area wants it, S/he may deserve it more.

Thank you. You have already sent me another one (Archeological dating methods and such).

You have my mailing address.

Regards,

Nilesh
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Prem »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... =TOI_AShow

4,000-year-old house found at Baghpat village offers rare clue to Harappan habitatio
MEERUT: Here's something for history buffs to get excited about. The Archaeological Survey of India (ASI), in excavations carried out at Chandyan village in Baghpat, have found remnants of a house that corresponds to the late Harappan period. The discovery is important since, according to archaeologists, this is the first time evidence of habitation pertaining to that period has been found in the Upper Doab region between Ganga and Yamuna.The late Harappan phase pertains to the period starting around 1900-1800 BC when the Indus Valley Civilization, popularly known as the Harappan Culture, began to decline. The civilization, which is known for its superior urban planning, is believed to have flourished in the period between 3300 BC to 1300 BC in what is today Pakistan, northwest India and parts of Afghanistan and Balochistan.Earlier in August, a human skull with a copper crown corresponding to the late Harappan period, was accidentally discovered at a brick kiln site in the village. The ASI started excavating the area on November 27 and found, to its delight, a number of items that pertained to the 4,000-yr-old era. "Till date, we have excavated around 20 burial pots, a pelvic bone of the same man whose skull we had found with a copper crown and a few beads like carnelian, faience and agate. However, the most interesting development, undoubtedly, is the evidence of habitation which was found for the first time. We excavated a mud wall with post holes where wooden pillars were probably fixed to support thatched roofs. We also found multi-level foundations that supported structures in different times," said AK Pandey, superintending archaeologist, ASI.
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12066
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Vayutuvan »

Nilesh: next Wed I will mail it to you (Jan 7th 2015 I guess), unless somebody else claims it.
Virendra
BRFite
Posts: 1211
Joined: 24 Aug 2011 23:20

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Virendra »

Nilesh Oak wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:
Genetically speaking, there seems to be no trace of any genetically significant movement of Indo-European people into Europe either (unless it is the farmers, but linguists think that 8000 years ago is too far back. The last population-genetically significant influx of people into India was 12,000 years ago or earlier.) /ufg_paleogenetik/publications/2013/Lazaridis-2013.pdf
A Gupta ji,

What genetic evidence (studies, etc.) lead to the evidence of significant influx of people into India around 12000 years ago (~ 10,000 BCE) or earlier?

TIA
Nilesh
It must be the Thangaraj paper based on Haplotype diversity. If it is from that paper, then the argument was not to stress that there was a major influx before 12 KYA. It was rather to say that if at all a major genetic influx occured in India, timing is certainly before 12 KYA not after that.
A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12069
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by A_Gupta »

Language and genetics in the context of the British Isles - probably a test case for some ideas?
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/featu ... shancestry
A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12069
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by A_Gupta »

I was referring to this:
http://www.newslaundry.com/2014/08/11/i ... me-aryans/
The migration that led to the Indo-Eurasian stock, according to these scientists, happened not 3,500 years ago but rather 12,500 years or earlier.
A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12069
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by A_Gupta »

Also this:
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magaz ... yrevisited
Q—Oppenheimer’s article shows the futility of letting scientists loose on purely historical questions, which are better tackled by historians, archaeologists and linguists. There is no essential connection between where your ancestors came from in the Neolithic period and what language you speak or how you behave culturally. In any case, statistically all of us are descended from everyone: allowing 25 years per generation, in the 62 generations since 450AD, we have had 4.6 x 10^16 direct ancestors, more people than have ever existed, and so we must be related to everyone on earth many times over.

Martin Nichols

A—From your first sentence it seems you must long for the good old days when historians, archaeologists and linguists could speculate on European invasions by Indo-Aryans, Kurgan horsemen and Celts, free of troublesome biological evidence. If you read my article and book, you will realise that your second sentence contains my starting point or null hypothesis: that connections between culture and genes are likely to be tenuous and that individual cases where this is claimed have to be tested appropriately.

Stephen Oppenheimer
A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12069
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by A_Gupta »

Also see this:
http://www.amazon.com/Eden-East-Drowned ... bc?ie=UTF8
Eden in the East: The Drowned Continent of Southeast Asia
This book completetly changes the established and conventional view of prehistory by relocating the Lost Eden—the world's first civilisation—to Southeast Asia. At the end of the Ice Age, Southeast Asia formed a continent twice the size of India, which included Indochina, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Borneo. In Eden in the East, Stephen Oppenheimer puts forward the astonishing argument that here in southeast Asia—rather than in Mesopotamia where it is usually placed—was the lost civilization that fertilized the Great cultures of the Middle East 6,000 years ago. He produces evidence from ethnography, archaeology, oceanography, creation stories, myths, linguistics, and DNA analysis to argue that this founding civilization was destroyed by a catastrophic flood, caused by a rapid rise in the sea level at the end of the last ice age.
vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by vishvak »

As long as there was Aryan invasion theory, it was very much provable. However, when there is a change in view then it appears that the 'first civilization' was lost only. If it was lost only, it could have lost anywhere, no?
sudarshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3018
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by sudarshan »

RajeshA wrote:
sudarshan wrote:<OT> Rajesh ji, hope you saw my e-khat (sent Dec. 1st). </OT>
Ow! Haven't been checking that account! Will get back to you soon!
Not sure if you responded, saar. Hope it didn't go to spam and get flushed.

Anyways, you seem pretty busy with other stuff right now, so peace.
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Nilesh Oak »

Thanks for your responses Shiv ji, Virendra ji and A Gupta ji.

---
Shiv Ji,

I had not come across that 12000 BP (or BCE) timeline anywhere in Genetics research.. so was surprised. Thanks.

Virendra ji,

What you wrote is/was indeed my guess.. but wanted to ensure if there was some new research that I was not aware of.

A Gupta ji,

Thanks for the link.
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4218
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Prem Kumar »

Sorry to interrupt the thread, but I wanted to put in a request. Rajiv Malhotra is writing a book on Sheldon Pollock and is crowdsourcing information from his Yahoo Group. He wants to rebut a particular point that Pollock makes. Reproducing it here below
Pollock claims that Valmiki wrote Ramayana (1) using the Buddhist Jataka tales by copying some of the stories, and also (2) borrowing the type of metre used in Jataka.

He also says that Sanskrit literature (kavya) begins only after Jataka.

Jataka tales are well known as Buddhist writings. So this puts Valmiki's Ramayana and all Indian literature a few centuries after Buddha, as per Pollock. It also makes Ramayana a derivative of Buddhist writings.

I welcome receiving any fact based and well referenced counter arguments.

Regards,
Rajiv
He is asking specifically about when Ramayana was "written". If any gurus know details, please join the group RajivMalhotraDiscussion@yahoogroups.com and contribute (OR) share here and I will be happy to be the courier boy
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by shiv »

Nilesh Oak wrote:T
I had not come across that 12000 BP (or BCE) timeline anywhere in Genetics research.. so was surprised. Thanks.
Nileshji the only significance of 12,000 years is that it corresponds to the end of the last ice age (the last glacial maximum) which is said to have depopulated large parts of Europe and North Yamrika

The relevant paper is here
http://repository.ias.ac.in/51846/1/42-PUB.pdf

The M 17 haplotype is about 15,000 years old in the Gujarat region and its diversity gets lesser as you get further although it is found in Eastern Europe. I am not sure if someone else has coined it but I like to call the R1a1a1 (M 17) haplotype marker as the Sanskrit gene
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Nilesh Oak »

Prem Kumar wrote:Sorry to interrupt the thread, but I wanted to put in a request. Rajiv Malhotra is writing a book on Sheldon Pollock and is crowdsourcing information from his Yahoo Group. He wants to rebut a particular point that Pollock makes. Reproducing it here below
Pollock claims that Valmiki wrote Ramayana (1) using the Buddhist Jataka tales by copying some of the stories, and also (2) borrowing the type of metre used in Jataka.

He also says that Sanskrit literature (kavya) begins only after Jataka.

Jataka tales are well known as Buddhist writings. So this puts Valmiki's Ramayana and all Indian literature a few centuries after Buddha, as per Pollock. It also makes Ramayana a derivative of Buddhist writings.

I welcome receiving any fact based and well referenced counter arguments.

Regards,
Rajiv

He is asking specifically about when Ramayana was "written". If any gurus know details, please join the group RajivMalhotraDiscussion@yahoogroups.com and contribute (OR) share here and I will be happy to be the courier boy
PremKumar ji,

Feel free to edit/forward/not forward/post...etc. as you see fit.
--

I know the specific point Rajiv ji wants to refute is 'Valmiki Ramayana was "WRITTEN" after Buddha.

Here are some indirect but relevant points....about the 'written aspect'

(1) Negative evidence - No inadvertent mention of Buddha or Mahabharata or any of the royalties (that existed and well documented.. in Indian history) in Ramayana.
(2) Social norms - Vasistha or even Sumant (oridinary minster) scolding the Queen (Kaikayee) was unheard of in Buddha times, even during Mahabharata times, and certainly a no-no during the time Pollock is claiming.
(3) When does Pollock think Mahabharata was written? (I am sure conveniently ...after Ramayana.. but then one never knows. JNU clan of old have written most idiotic statements about these...e.g. Ramayana was written/happened after Mahabharata and such.. hence my note). If he think Mahabharata was written before Ramayana, then his whole argument collapses without anyone having to do anything.....Mahabharata quotes Ramayana - many times---verbatim, other times, incidents of Ramayana.. in numerous places...but not the other way round (Ramayana does not quote Mahabharata...on morality, social customer, analogy..Nada).
(4) Pollock would have to claim (may be he does) that author of Ramayana wrote it.. while remaining COMPLETELY unaffected by all past history of his time (after Jataka) or social norms prevailing before or contemporary to his time... Ramayana social customs, role of women is extremely broader and different than that of post-Buddha times. In Ramayana - women did 'Sandhya', had a 'thread ceremony', went to war with their husbands, were considered natural choices (whether the women themselves accepted or not) for the throne (it was suggested that Sita may sit on the throne.. or Tara (wife of Vali) may sit on the throne)..
---
Now on the historicity (timing) aspect... for a minute keeping aside when exactly Ramayana was "WRITTEN"

(1) Ramayana refers to clearly (in not indistinct terms) setting of sun on Nakshatra Pushya, during the season of Hemant! This puts the lower bound of ~11000 BCE for this to occur. (Actual timing could be anywhere from 11000 BCE to 17000 BCE.
(2) Ramayana refers to Chaitra as the month of Pre-autumn (Sharad)---based on descriptions (forests bloomed with flowers, rainclouds and peacock dancing). This leads to time period of 10500 BCE - 15000 BCE
(3) Ramayana refers to Ashwin as the month of spring/early spring/late spring... This leads to time interval of 10500 BCE - 15000 BCE

This means, even assuming for a minute, that Ramayana was written post-Buddha, the author of Valmiki Ramayana had pre 10500 BCE as the timeline in his mind. Assuming this to be a great fiction, still a marvelous knowledge of Astronomy on the part of author (such a knowledge did not exist in Europe until 17th -18th century CE). At a minimum, Pollock would have to concede on this point. Do remember Indologist crowd (especially academic) is disappointing in comprehending Astronomy and Archeo-astronomy.. or science in general.

At the risk of suggesting something that Rajiv ji would not have time for (or may find it irrelevant for his theme) work of Dr. P V Vartak on Ramayana (Wastav Ramayana) or my book 'The Historic Rama' is worth referring to for many aspects that likes of Rajiv ji may employ..but something I may not recognize of use to him..

My humble $0.02, for what it may be worth. (Rajiv ji has PDF version of my books).

Nilesh
Virendra
BRFite
Posts: 1211
Joined: 24 Aug 2011 23:20

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Virendra »

It would be a good idea to study the genetic history (i.e. migrations) of domesticated animals like Cow, Mouse, Dog etc.
That would corroborate the assertions like M17.
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Nilesh Oak »

PremKumar ji,

Valmiki Ramayana also has references to 'flowing Sarasvati' and based on Archeology and stuff (water levels, drying up of sarasvati bed and construction in sarasavati bed that is dated to ~2000 BCE.. which means Sarasvati dried before that time.

This puts lower limit of 2000 BCE.
--
Of course this by itself does not say anything on when Valmiki Ramayana was "WRITTEN"

for what it may be worth...
member_22872
BRFite
Posts: 1873
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by member_22872 »

Nilesh ji and others, this could interest you, recently Pollock seems to propose that Ramayana was composed based on Jataka tales, and that date of Ramayana could very well be around that time of Jataka tales were written.
cut-pasting from RM ji's forum :
In 1989 Indian Journal of History of Science, a paper titled "A Fresh Glimpse On The Date of Mahabharata" by S A Paramahans of Department of Mathematics of BHU was published (attached with this mail). This paper tries to look at epigraphic evidence to put Kurukshetra War at ~3000 BC. This paper can be found online (thanks to Digital Library of India).

One point in this paper is particularly striking. This is with reference to Panini and his usage of names from Mahabharata. Since it is accepted by western indologists that Panini was in fact 4th BC figure, it is difficult or rather impossible to place Valmiki Ramayana after Jataka Tales.

I quote from the paper:

"It is well known that in Indian scriptures, there is neither any person of special distinction of the name Mahabharata, nor is there any race of this name. Hence Webber's assumption that the term Mahabharata of Panini does not denote the epic of this name is baseless. 'Drona' also occurs in the aphorisms of Panini. Panini futher refers to Vidura (III.2.162), Vasudeva and Arjuna (IV.3.98), Yudhistira (VIII.3.95), Bhima (III.4.74), Nakula (VI.3.75), Andhakas, Vrisnis and Kurus (IV.1.114) and also the Gandiva bow (V.2.110)."

As an example "vAsudevArjunAbhyAm vun" is from Chapter IV, 3rd Pada and 98th sutra in Ashtadhyayi. The explanation from Vasu Sirsa Chandra's translations is as follows:

"Q) The word vAsudeva being the name of Kshatriya would have taken "vujn" (वुञ्) by the next sutra, and there is no difference here between वुन् and वुञ्, why then include the word vAsudeva in this sutra?

A) The word vAsudeva here is the name of the God (in which all dwell - vasati asmin) and not the designation of a kshatriya"

If it is required for the sake of completeness, I would be more than happy to publish the exact Panini sutras that the paper mentions.

Unless Pollock would like to move Panini closer to Jataka Tales, it is rather impossible to move Mahabharata after Jataka tales. Since Mahabharata has a section on Ramopakhyana, it is also not possible to move Ramayana closer to Jataka Tales.

Of course, there could always be an argument that names being mentioned in Panini Ashtadhyayi is not a proof that Mahabharata happened before him. But then, not all names used in Mahabharata (and found in Panini) are found elsewhere too! The context of Panini's sutras also increases the probability that Panini framed sutras based on examples from Mahabharata.

Regards
jkv
And I uploaded the paper here : A Fresh Glimpse On The Date of Mahabharata" by S A Paramahans
I think RM ji should be made aware of Nilesh ji's work.
member_22872
BRFite
Posts: 1873
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by member_22872 »

In the language of the "Aryans" :
Saraswati in the Rg Veda : A case of misguided research :
[youtube]mWZeHaIiy30&app=desktop[/youtube]
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Nilesh Oak »

PremKumar ji,

Additionally, when Valmiki Ramayana refers to Gods, it is exclusively Vedic. Also when Vishnu is mentioned (see below for Vishnu comparison with Rama), e.g. Rama and Laxman are compared with Indra and Vishnu..in that sequence. Thus at the time of writing of Ramayana, Indra was considerd superior to Vishnu. This refers to then a time period when likes of Vishnu Purana or Bhagavat Purana did not exist. It is a fair to assume that author of Ramayana (if he was post-Buddha, would have been aware and influenced by it)
Thus since Vishnu Purana and Bhagavat Purana (both can be dated to ~1600 BCE based on astronomy references within them) are long before Pollocks Buddha (500BCE), it is then interesting that writer of Valmiki Ramayana who wrote this post Buddha was not influeced/aware of existance of Vishnu Purana and Bhagavat Purana...BTW. both these Purana mention Rama story..

Sure it compares Rama with Vishnu (Many researchers take these as later additions.. which could very well be.. but my approach is to leave them as is without additing my $0.02. otherwise one gets into the problem of considering anything that does not fit one's theory as later additions and/or interpolations)
--
Venug ji,

Thank you. I am going to download that paper next. (your link)
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Nilesh Oak »

Venug ji,

Thanks for the paper.

Other than the fact (which is useful and has value) that the paper was published in a 'peer reviewed journal' and in English, and thus can be quoted very easily.. (also focus on words employed by Panini), there is nothing original or fresh about it. The tile has 'A Fresh glimpse' in it.. and hence my comment.

Dr. Vartak has writen about it as early as 1971, and he is in fact quoting Tilak, Lele, Kane, S B Dikshit. These latter group wrote over a period of 1890-1960 CE.
SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36424
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by SaiK »

Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Nilesh Oak »

venug wrote:In the language of the "Aryans" :
Saraswati in the Rg Veda : A case of misguided research :
[youtube]mWZeHaIiy30&app=desktop[/youtube]
Thanks Venug ji,

Nonsense of Rajesh Kocchar exposed...
Prem
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21233
Joined: 01 Jul 1999 11:31
Location: Weighing and Waiting 8T Yconomy

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Prem »

its Romanian or S-indian Yindian Lipi

Image
Satya_anveshi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3532
Joined: 08 Jan 2007 02:37

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Satya_anveshi »

A bit of OT but thought the audience here will be interested in this nicely made intro. Even though it is in Marathi, I am sure folks will be able to make sense of majority of the content and find it useful:

Misra
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 100
Joined: 19 Nov 2009 09:03

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Misra »

Does anyone have access to this paper and can post a synopsis of any relevant bits?

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop ... 4285a.html

From the abstract:

"Here we surveyed a total of 5321 Y-chromosomes from 127 Asian populations, including novel Y-SNP and microsatellite data on 461 Central Asian males, to ask whether additional lineage expansions could be identified. Based on the most frequent eight-microsatellite haplotypes, we objectively defined 11 descent clusters (DCs), each within a specific haplogroup, that represent likely past instances of high male reproductive success, including the two previously identified cases. Analysis of the geographical patterns and ages of these DCs and their associated cultural characteristics showed that the most successful lineages are found both among sedentary agriculturalists and pastoral nomads, and expanded between 2100 BCE and 1100 CE."

The "two previously identified cases" included here are those of Genghis Khan and Giocangga.
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12066
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Vayutuvan »

Nilesh Oak wrote:I would love to have it, however, if someone else who is actively working on this area wants it, S/he may deserve it more.
Thank you. You have already sent me another one (Archeological dating methods and such).
You have my mailing address.
Nilesh: Look for a packet in USPS snailmail most probably tomorrow if you have not received it already.
sudarshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3018
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by sudarshan »

Is there a concise summary of the genetic evidence pertaining to AIT somewhere, explained in layman terms without all those "haplotypes" and "haplogroups" jargon? Need it to refute a pesky and persistent AIT-fan. TIA.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by shiv »

sudarshan wrote:Is there a concise summary of the genetic evidence pertaining to AIT somewhere, explained in layman terms without all those "haplotypes" and "haplogroups" jargon? Need it to refute a pesky and persistent AIT-fan. TIA.
Written by me. Copyright belongs to me - part of a chapter from a book that I was writing but is now in suspended animation
One of the early genetic markers relevant to languages was something that was called “R1a” and was found to occur in Eastern Europe, Eurasia and India. This gene marker is found in the Y-chromosome (that is in men only) and was hailed as the Indo-European “Aryan” marker gene that could possibly be linked with the spread of proto-Indo European languages. The gene marker was found in skeletons and mummies from the steppe regions of Eurasia as well as in faraway places like Germany and India and was assumed to be the gene associated with people, who were given the name “Aryans”, who allegedly conquered their way to India starting from Eurasia. However, as genetic research became more sophisticated and widespread, the R1a story changed.

In 2010, a group led by Underhill published a paper dealing with R1a. They discovered that the R1a marker has sub-parts that were present in different population. One such R1a related marker called M17 was present in people from India, the Eurasian steppes and Eastern Europe and Russia. This had been found in mummies discovered in Eurasian graves as well. But the M17 marker was found to have its oldest origins in western India - around the Gujarat region and was about 12,000 years old in this area. In other areas, the M17 marker was much less old - down to about 6000 years in some parts of Europe. This basically means that R1a cannot have spread from Europe to India and if at all, the spread is likely to have occurred from India towards Europe. Further evidence comes from the discovery of another gene marker associated with M17, called the M548. The M548 marker is found widely in eastern Europe among people who have M17. But the M548 marker is less old, at about 6000 years and is absent among Indians, ruling out the possibility of Europeans carrying that marker having migrated from the steppes to India any time in the last 6000 years. This finding in itself rules out any invading or “clan by clan” migrations to India from Eurasia 4,500 years ago.

In an earlier paper in 2003, Kivisilid and others had already noted that the M17 marker was oldest in south Asia, and that it was present in high frequencies among Dravidian language speaking Indian tribal groups such as Chenchus, Valmikis from Andhra Pradesh and Kallar tribals of Tamil Nadu. The language spread theory made up on linguistic grounds had postulated that these Dravidian speaking tribals were the “Dravidians” who were driven south by the invading Aryans, who later avoided intermarrying with these groups by creating a caste system where Aryans formed the high castes and the tribals formed the lowest castes. The presence of these so called “Aryan” genes among Dravidian language tribals makes nonsense of the Aryan-Dravidian theory, a basically racist concoction that has been carried too far my modern day linguists and anthropologists.

Genetic studies have also discovered that genes found among Indians are are among the oldest in the world. In a study of mDNA inherited from the mother Kivisilid and colleagues note that that a component called the haplogroup M “was brought to Asia from East Africa, along the southern route, by the earliest migration wave of anatomically modern humans, 60,000 years ago”. The paper goes on to note that “Less than 10% of the maternal lineages of the caste populations had an ancestor outside India in the past 12,000 years” What this means is that Indians share a lot of extremely ancient genes that cut across all caste groups. Meanwhile the study also notes that Indians totally lack a certain gene (that serves as protection against HIV infection) that is commonly found in Europe, central and west Asia, showing that there has been virtually no gene flow (or major migration of people from those regions) since that gene arose. Another finding was remarkable one of male inherited Y chromosome markers that could be linked to the patrilineal “gotra” system of India among both tribals and high caste populations, disproving the idea that gotras were created as part of the caste system by invading Aryan speakers of Indo-European languages from Europe.

A 2009 study by Sharma and others took the genetic studies relating to Indians to a new level. This group of researchers studied the genes of hundreds of high caste Brahmin individual and compared them with the genetic signatures of thousands of lower caste Indians. They also correlated these findings with the genetic picture of hundreds of Greeks, Macedonians and central Asians, whose ancestors have all been credited with bringing a language that became Sanskrit language to India. Earlier studies had predicted that upper caste groups in India would show a genetic resemblance to people from central Asia and Eurasia while lower caste groups would show a greater genetic difference from those groups in support of the language spread theory. This theory was proven wrong in the 2009 study. It was found that the M17 sub group of R1a most probably originated among an Brahmin (upper caste) group in India and was not brought in from outside. But even among the lower caste groups the age of the sub group R1a was much older than the age of the same sub group in central Asians and Eurasians. This finding supports the possible origin of the M17 sub group in the Indian sub continent, and simultaneously rules out the possibility of the gene having been carried into India by migration of anyone - Indo-European speakers or not in the 1500 BC to 1000 BC time frame. In fact the findings suggest a migration of men carrying the M17 marker towards Eurasia. On average the Indian origin genetic markers were the oldest - being two to three thousand years older than the European markers. These findings go against the theory that invaders or migrants from Europe or Eurasia migrated to India and invented the caste system to ensure that they remained at the top of the social pecking order. It is likely that the caste system was invented in India and cannot be associated with the migration of Indo-European language speaking people from the west.

A research study of genes of south Indians in Tamil Nadu in the extreme south of India was done by Arun Kumar and colleagues and published in 2012. The study showed that genes shared between caste Brahmins and among tribal people dated back to a period far earlier than the time frame stated by the hypothetical migration of Brahmins carrying European genes to South India. The study concludes “The study populations from Tamil Nadu were characterized by an overwhelming proportion of Y-chromosomal lineages that likely originated within India, suggesting a low genetic influence from western Eurasian migrations in the last 10 Kya.” 10 Kya means 10,000 years, a fact that places these findings thousands of years before the supposed invasion or migration of Aryans from Eurasia, bringing language and caste with them

Furthermore the research study by the Sharma group referred to earlier study showed that there was no particular difference in gene distribution between upper and lower caste groups in India. In both upper and lower caste groups, genes that were common in central Asians were seen only in low frequencies. This finding once again shows that there was no migration or invasion of people from Europe or central Asia to India, and that the caste system was not established as the invading (or migrating) proto-Sanskrit speakers from Eurasia formed separate high caste groups in India. If there was no large scale invasion or migration, the idea that proto-Sanskrit was brought to India by these groups is false. The latter theory, built up on unreliable linguistic grounds can be discarded by the findings of genetic studies. It is ironic that science took 200 years to catch up with the imprecise conjecture based on linguistic assumptions and constructs which have themselves been passed off as science.
sudarshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3018
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by sudarshan »

Great shiv ji, thanks. Would it violate your copyright if I summarized some bullet points from this write-up? What I need are bullet points, and I suspect many others could use them also.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by shiv »

sudarshan wrote:Great shiv ji, thanks. Would it violate your copyright if I summarized some bullet points from this write-up? What I need are bullet points, and I suspect many others could use them also.
Use as you want - the reason I used the word "copyright" is a sort of "claim" that I am making now - should i ever publish and then get accused of plagiarizing from the web - I need to say that what was on the web was what I wrote in the first place.
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Nilesh Oak »

Matrimc, ji,

received the book (yesterday - 29 Jan 2015). Thanks,

Nilesh
Last edited by Nilesh Oak on 30 Jan 2015 23:12, edited 1 time in total.
Nilesh Oak
BRFite
Posts: 1670
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Nilesh Oak »

Sudarshan,

You may want to write a footnote (whereever you use the bullets) stating.. from the upcoming book by Shiv XXXX. It then creates another online imprint of original contributor. just my $0.02.

Nilesh
Gus
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8220
Joined: 07 May 2005 02:30

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Gus »

Shiv, if the book needs more hours from you, can you please do an article, for now?
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4218
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by Prem Kumar »

^ Second that.

I'd suggest a Blog post or an article in one of the new RW online portals like SwarajyaMag (which is off to a great start and is hungry for guest articles). As Gus says, you could publish an article (even focusing on just say M17 or R1a) there and state that this is all part of a forthcoming e-Book. The Swarajya articles are widely read, mainly because people like Prasanna Vishy (CEO) have a lot of Twitter followers.

Just a suggestion
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34982
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by shiv »

Gus wrote:Shiv, if the book needs more hours from you, can you please do an article, for now?
My book is currently like a collection of well researched chapters with no coherent/coordinated purpose. On their own they may have some value - so maybe I will post stuff that others my find useful at least in terms of cross references from where data was sourced.
disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 8243
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Post by disha »

shiv wrote:
Gus wrote:Shiv, if the book needs more hours from you, can you please do an article, for now?
My book is currently like a collection of well researched chapters with no coherent/coordinated purpose. On their own they may have some value - so maybe I will post stuff that others my find useful at least in terms of cross references from where data was sourced.
Can you, even if it is a scan post all of it? We will collectively figure out a way to put this together cohesively.
Post Reply