Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

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member_29089
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby member_29089 » 13 Oct 2015 14:59

Jhujar wrote:My daughter has to write Essay on Soul and for reference sake i opened the Al Qitab on Kena Upanishad and found reference to Corn.But Corn was "discovered" in Amreeka by Euro. Does it mean Upanishad was composed after Columbus arrived to steal gold from Indians ?



Corn in old-english means grain of any kind. Book of Genesis also mentions "corn"

And to his father he sent after this manner; ten asses laden with the good things of Egypt, and ten she asses laden with corn and bread and meat for his father by the way. Genesis 45:23

PS "asses" here means donkeys because there was no pakistan at that time

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 13 Oct 2015 17:55

Also Jowar (sorghum) in Kannada is known by the same word as corn - i.e "Jola" where the "l" is retroflexed

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Paul » 13 Oct 2015 19:38

My condolences to Stallone...

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby RajeshA » 13 Oct 2015 23:53

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Agnimitra
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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Agnimitra » 14 Oct 2015 06:32

^^^ Links:
Native American Wedding 'Rite of the Seven Steps'

Another link on Native American Wedding Vows

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby member_28652 » 18 Oct 2015 19:43

I am watching Barkha talk with Vikram Seth. He said Hinduism came from outside so who are we to tell anyone how to live. AIT seems to be proven fact for him.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby SaiK » 18 Oct 2015 20:38

so what was inside before it was proven to be from outside?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Vayutuvan » 18 Oct 2015 20:47

Once one gets a booker prize - in seth's case isn't it for A Suitable Boy which is wailing about an era gone by where arranged marriages were the norm - they start singing the tune of world citizen etc. some people think that booker is a precursor to Nobel. I see this disease afflict mostly the Indian booker winners. Others engage in activism in favor of their own communities/nations but Indian elite push the burra saheb's PoV. Some are aspirational white sahebs.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Vril » 19 Oct 2015 13:16

http://www.vina.cc/2015/09/28/6000-year ... ania-iraq/


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6000 year old Lord Rama and Hanuman carvings in Silemania, Iraq

AN ANCIENT RAM-CHAPEL IN SUMER

One of the major triumphs of modern archaeology was the hair-raising discoveries of Sir Leonard Woolley at Ur. Amidst the ruins of Ur, he unearthed a Ram-chapel but totally missed its relevance in world history. This crucial finding not only bridges the wide gaps between Indian tradition and archaeology but also unfolds the historic bonds that once united ancient India, Iran and Sumer. Ram-Sin of (Larsa) to whose memory this chapel was dedicated must have been Rama of Valmiki. The name Ararama of Larsa may be an echo of Rama. This Ram-Chapel of Ur is the earliest known memorial to the great Rama and may have been erected by Dilmun merchants who resided nearby. Dilmun was always mentioned in the Sumerian texts together with Magan and Melukkha and it is possible that these three states were somehow allied to each other.

RAMA, BHARATA & LAKSHMANA IN SUMER

The Cambridge Ancient History[xvi][iii] which is usually not considered as a sourcebook for Indian history by writers like Romila Thapar contains priceless information relevant to Indian ancient history. In the highly authentic Sumerian king list appears such hallowed names as Bharat (Warad) Sin and Ram Sin. As Sin was the Moon god Chandra Ram Sin can be seen to be same as Rama Chandra. Bharat Sin ruled for 12 years (1834-1822 BC), exactly as stated in the Dasaratha Jataka. The Jataka statement, “Years sixty times hundred, and ten thousand more, all told, / Reigned strong-armed Rama”, only means that Rama reigned for sixty years which agrees exactly with the data of Assyriologists. Ram Sin was the longest reigning monarch of Mesopotamia who ruled for 60 years. The mention of the father in the inscriptions of both Warad Sin and Ram Sin is noteworthy and may point to a palace intrigue. Joan Oates is not aware of the Ramayana but writes with great insight (p. 61) that Warad sin was manoeuvred to the throne by his father. In Mesopotamia, a prince normally became king only after the death of his father. Lakshmana, mentioned the Bible as Lakhamar, ruled as a great king.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby johneeG » 20 Oct 2015 01:45

Petra, Jordan - Is it an ancient Shiva Temple complex?
Note: This article has also been published in the Viewzone magazine and the Graham Hancock website.

Petra, the ‘rose red city, half as old as time’, located in modern day Jordan, is undoubtedly one of the most dramatic archaeological sites of the world. In a recently conducted Internet poll, it was voted by internet users as one of the ‘seven wonders of the modern world’. In this abandoned city, which lies hidden behind impenetrable mountains and gorges, magnificent rock-cut temples and palaces have been carved into towering cliffs of red and orange sandstone. The most famous of these structures is the ‘Al Khasneh’ (or the ‘Treasury’), which was made famous in an Indiana Jones film.

Historians tell us that sometime during the 6th – 4th centuries BC, the Nabataeans, a nomadic tribe from north-western Arabia, entered the region of Petra, and established their cultural, commercial and ceremonial center at Petra. Petra was located strategically at the intersection of the overland Silk Route which connected India and China with Egypt and the Hellenistic world, and the Incense Route from Arabia to Damascus. It soon developed into a thriving commercial center. Sometime during the 3rd century BC, the Nabataeans began to decorate their capital city with splendid rock-cut temples and buildings. Their economic prosperity and architectural achievements continued unabated even after they came under the control of the Roman Empire in 106 CE. The neglect and decline of Petra started soon after Emperor Constantine declared Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire in 324 CE. A series of earthquakes crippled the region in the 7th – 8th centuries and Petra disappeared from the map of the known world, only to be rediscovered centuries later in 1812, by a Swiss explorer named Johann Burckhardt.
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Fig 1: Al-Khazneh (The Treasury) at Petra. Source: Wikipedia / Bernard Gagnon
While the architectural grandeur of Petra continues to captivate us, the mysterious religious beliefs of the Nabataeans have puzzled historians. Within the temple of Al Deir, the largest and most imposing rock-cut temple in Petra, is present an unworked, black, block of stone, like an obelisk, representing the most important deity of the Nabataeans - Dushara. The term Dushara means ‘Lord of the Shara’, which refers to the Shara mountains to the north of Petra. The symbolic animal of Dushara was a bull. All over Petra, Dushara was represented symbolically by stone blocks. At the entrance of Petra there are three massive standing blocks of stone, known as Djin blocks, which were sacred to the inhabitants. There are nearly 40 such Djin blocks present throughout Petra. In addition, at religious sites throughout the city, the Nabataeans carved a standing stone block called a baetyl, literally meaning ‘house of god’. A baetyl physically marked a deity's presence. It could be a square or rounded like a dome. Some baetyls’ were depicted with a lunar crescent on the top. The Nabataeans also appear to be snake worshippers. One of the most prominent structures in Petra is the snake monument, which shows a gigantic coiled-up snake on a block of stone.
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Fig 2: Dome-shaped Baetyl. Source: Nabataea.net
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Fig 3: Baetyl with lunar crescent on top. Source: Nabataea.net
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Fig 4: Petra snake monument. Source: Nabataea.net
This unusual array of symbolic elements associated with the chief god of the Nabataeans, Dushara, may have confounded historians, but to anyone familiar with the symbolism of the Vedic deity Shiva, the similarities between Dushara and Shiva will be palpable. Shiva is still worshipped all over India in the form of a black block of stone known as a Shiva Linga. A Shiva Linga, which is essentially a ‘mark’ or ‘symbol’ of Shiva, sometimes appears as an unworked block of stone, much like the idol of Dushara in the temple of Al Deir; but typically it is represented by a smooth, rounded stone which resembles some of the rounded ,dome-shaped, baetyls that we find in Petra. Shiva is also associated with the mountains; his residence is supposed to be in the Kailash Mountain in the Himalayas, to the north of India, where he spends most of his time engaged in rigorous asceticism. His symbolic animal is a bull, named Nandi, which is commonly depicted kneeling in front of the Shiva Linga. Pictorial depictions of Shiva always show a crescent-shaped moon in his matted locks, much like the lunar crescent that appears on top of certain baetyls in Petra; and on top of the Shiva Linga is present a coiled-up serpent, bearing a strong resemblance to the serpent monument of Petra. It is evident that Shiva and Dushara are symbolically identical, leaving little scope for doubt that Dushara must indeed be a representation of the Vedic deity Shiva.
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Fig 5: Black stone Shiva Linga in the coils of a seven hooded serpent. Lepakshi, Andhra Pradesh, India, 16th century. Credit: Bibhu Dev Misra
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Fig 6: The 65 feet high statue of Shiva in Bangalore, India, with snakes coiled around his neck and the crescent shaped Moon on his matted locks. Source: Wikipedia / Kalyan Kumar
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Fig 7: Giant Monolithic statue of Nandi, the bull, facing the shrine, at the Halebidu Temple, Karnataka, c. 12th century AD. Credit: Bibhu Dev Misra
The similarities, however, do not end here. The consort of Dushara was known to the Nabataeans as Al-Uzza or Al-lat. She was a goddess of power and a goddess of the people, and was symbolized by a lion. Lions are present at many sites in Petra. At the Lion Triclinium in Petra there are two massive lions protecting the doorway. Lions are also seen at the Lion Monument in Petra, a public fountain, where refreshing water for the perspiring pilgrims would have sprouted from the water outlet at the mouth of the lion. At the Temple of the Winged Lions, a considerable amount of material has been found, including feline statuette fragments, which emphasize the ‘feline’ association of the mother goddess. The supreme mother goddess was also symbolically associated with vegetation, grains and prosperity, and was frequently depicted holding cereal stalks and fruits.

Not surprisingly, the lion is also associated with the consort of Shiva, known as Parvati, Durga or Shakti. As per the Puranic legends, when the entire humanity was threatened by the evil Mahisasura, the goddess Durga, invested with the combined spiritual energies of the Hindu Trinity – Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva – and adorned with celestial weapons granted by the divine company of gods, rode her lion to battle this asura. The terrible battle raged over nine days, and on the tenth day Durga defeated and killed Mahisasura. Even now, the victory of Durga over the forces of darkness represented by Mahisasura, is one of the most widely celebrated religious festivals in India, known as Dussehra (or Dasha-Hara, Navratri, Vijaydashami) which is celebrated over a period of ten days.
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Fig 8: The idol of Al-Uzza, found in the Temple of the Winged Lions. Source: Nabatea.net
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Fig 9: One of the two reliefs of lion of the Lion Triclinium in Petra, Jordan. Source: Nabataea.net
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Fig 10: Durga on a Lion, slaying Mahisarura who has taken the form of a bull. Aihole temple complex, Karnataka, c. 6th century AD. Credit: Bibhu Dev Misra
There are indications that the Nabataeans, too, may have celebrated this ancient festival. At Petra, an elaborate processional way leads from the center of the city to the temple of Al Deir. In front of the temple there is a massive, flat, courtyard, carved out of the rock, capable of accommodating thousands of people. This has led historians to suggest that the Al Deir temple may have been the site of large-scale ceremonies. It is possible that this was a celebration of Dussehra, since Al-Uzza was the ‘goddess of the people’ and Dussehra is the celebration of the victory of the goddess over the forces of evil. It is not unlikely that the presiding god of the Nabataeans, Dushara, may have obtained his name from the festival Dussehra. The cult of Shiva-Shakti represented the sacred masculine and feminine principles, and the worship of Shiva has always been inextricably linked with the celebrations of Durga. Even now in rural Bengal in India, the final day of celebration of Dussehra (Basanti Puja) is followed by an exuberant worship of Shiva. For these people, it remains the most important festival of their annual religious calendar.

There has been some confusion among historians as to whether the consort of Dushara at Petra was Al-Uzza or Al-lat. We know that the Nabataeans worshipped the triad of goddesses - Al-Uzza, Al-lat and Manat – often depicted in Petra in the form of three baetyls, carved next to each other. Although it has been generally believed that the consort of Dushara may be Al-Uzza, the depictions of Al-Uzza in other places of Arabia do not support such an association. Al-Uzza (the ‘Strong One’) was the goddess of the morning and evening star. Isaac of Antioch (5th century CE) referred to her as Kaukabta, ‘the Star’. She was the virgin-warrior and the youngest in the goddess triad, fiercely protective, and a strong ally in an approaching battle. She was sometimes depicted riding a ‘dolphin’ and showing the way to sea-farers. She has been identified as the counterpart of the Indo-European goddess of dawn, Ostara, and the Vedic ‘Usas’. In the Rig Veda, there are around 20 hymns dedicated to the Usas, the goddess of dawn, who appears in the east every morning, resplendent in her golden light, riding a chariot drawn by glorious horses, dispelling the darkness, awakening men to action, and bestowing her bounty and riches on all and sundry. The phonetic and symbolic associations between ‘Uzza’ and ‘Usa’ indicate that they may be derived from the same source.

Al-lat was widely regarded as ‘the Mother of the Gods’, or ‘Greatest of All’. She was the goddess of fertility and prosperity and was known from Arabia to Iran. She was symbolically associated with vegetation, grains and prosperity, and was frequently depicted holding cereal stalks and a small lump of frankincense in her hands. In this respect, Al-lat is symbolically associated with the Vedic goddess ‘Lakshmi’, who is also considered as the goddess of prosperity and fertility, and is depicted holding cereal stalks and a container of grains. The third goddess of the Nabataean triad, Manat, is the oldest goddess of the Nabataeans, and also the most feared. She was the terrible, black goddess of death, destruction and doom, and was worshipped as a black stone at Quidaid, near Mecca. Nabataean inscriptions tell us that tombs were placed under her protection, asking her to curse violators. The symbolism of Manat bears stark resemblances to the Hindu goddess of death and destruction – Kali – who is also worshipped in the form of a black goddess.

We can, therefore, see that the Nabataean triad of goddesses – Al-Uzza, Al-Lat and Manat – corresponds to the Vedic goddesses – Usa, Lakshmi and Kali. And here is the interesting part - Even now, this goddess triad is worshipped in many parts of India, with the sole exception that Usa is often replaced by Saraswati, the goddess of learning and wisdom.

One of the most famous temples in India, which attracts millions of devotees throughout the year, is the Vaishno Devi temple in Jammu. This temple is dedicated to the goddess Vaishno Devi, who is an aspect of the goddess Durga. The primary shrine at Vaishno Devi, however, contains three pieces of stones representing the three goddesses – Saraswati, Lakshmi and Kali. It is believed that these three goddesses represent three different aspects of the all-encompassing mother goddess Durga, the consort of Shiva. Some other shrines in India have a set of three ‘Shiva Lingas’ which represent these three goddesses. The symbolic similarities with the Nabataean goddess triad are plainly evident.

This brings up an intriguing question. Is it possible that the consort of Dushara at Petra is neither Al-Uzza nor Al-lat or Manat, but the great mother Goddess of Arabia (whose name we do not know), of whom they are but three different aspects? The similarities between the Nabataean and Hindu goddess triads suggest such a possibility. We know that the three goddesses of the Nabataean triad were generally accorded equal importance (although at certain times and in certain places one of them became more prominent than others). Equally important is the curious fact that none of these deities have been associated with lions, anywhere in Arabia. This would imply that the Temple of the Winged Lions at Petra may not be dedicated to any of them, but to the great mother Goddess, the consort of Dushara. Perhaps, if we investigate along these lines, it may become possible to finally ascertain the real identity of the consort of Dushara.

Certain rituals associated with Shiva-Durga worship can also be found reflected in the religious practices of the Nabataeans. The Nabataeans ritually made animal sacrifices to Dushara and Al-Uzza, at the ‘High Place of Sacrifice’ in Petra. The Suda Lexicon, which was compiled at the end of the 10th century, refers to older sources which have since been lost. It states: ‘Theus Ares (Dushrara); this is the god Ares in Arabic Petra. They worship the god Ares and venerate him above all. His statue is an unworked square black stone. It is four foot high and two feet wide. It rests on a golden base. They make sacrifices to him and before him they anoint the blood of the sacrifice that is their anointment.’ The practice of anointing the Shiva Linga with red vermilion powder (Kumkum) continues to this date in India. It has also been noticed that most of the Djin blocks at Petra are located close to sources of running water, a fact which has left historians in a dilemma. However, such a peculiar alignment of Djin blocks can be easily explained once we remember that one of the most common practices of Shiva worship is to pour a kettle of water (or milk, curd, ghee, honey etc.) over the Shiva-Linga. This act is symbolic of the sacred river Ganges, which, after emanating from the toe of Vishnu, flows down the matted locks of Shiva. This is the reason why nearly every Shiva temple is also associated with a natural well or spring or a source of running water.
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Fig 11: Petra - High Place of Sacrifice. Source: atlastours.net
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Fig 12: Shiva Linga carved on the bedrock, at Hampi, Karnataka. Credit: Bibhu Dev Misra
The worship of Shiva-Durga, the sacred masculine and feminine principles, is as old as time itself. The presence of sacred pillars and dolmens, the ancient snake cults, the symbolism of the trisula / trident, the crescent moon etc. found at various archaeological sites across the world suggests that the worship of Shiva-Shakti was one of the most deeply entrenched belief systems of the ancient wisdom traditions. Among the ancient Semites, a pillar of stone was a sacred representation of a deity. In many texts, the ancient Hebrews are recorded setting up stones as monuments. Jacob set up a pillar and anointed it, in a manner starkly reminiscent of the Shiva worship rituals, while Joshua set up a sacred stone monument under a oak tree, just as a Shiva Linga is generally set up under a banyan tree:

"And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had set up for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it. (Genesis 28; 18-19).

"And Jacob set up a pillar in the place where he talked with him, even a pillar of stone: and he poured a drink offering thereon, and he poured oil thereon (Genesis 35; 14).

And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the LORD" (Joshua 24;26).


Pillars and Dolmens (stones arranged one on top of another) also constituted an essential part of Druidical worship, among the Celts of ancient Britain and France. In the Irish Druids and Old Irish Religions (1894), James Bonwick mentions that the Irish venerated their lithic temples. They not only anointed them with oil or milk, but, down to a late period, they poured water on their sacred surface so that the draught might cure their diseases. Molly Grime, a rude stone figure, kept in Glentham church, was annually washed with water from Newell well.
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Fig 13: Cylindrical, Linga-shaped stone in the center of the stone altar. Feaghna, Ireland, at least 2000 years old. Source: http://www.megalithic.co.uk
The geographical distribution of stone monuments extends from the extreme west of Europe to the extreme east of Asia, and from Scandinavia to Central Africa. In spite of centuries of destruction, stone monuments of every type abound in the British and Irish Islands, and some of the most remarkable structures in Europe are found there. In France some 4000 dolmens are present. In Northern and Central Europe they occur in Belgium, Holland and in the northern plains of Germany. They have been found in large numbers in Denmark and the Danish Islands, and also in Sweden. ‘Meteoric stones mounted on carved pedestals’ have been found in the farthest reaches of the Roman Empire, and one such piece is, at present, on view at the Etruscan Museum in Vatican, Rome.

Although this ancient faith was practised in large parts of the world since time immemorial, there appears to have been a renewed westward thrust soon after the conquests of Alexander, which invigorated the ancient land and maritime trade routes, popularly known as the Silk Route, which connected India and China with the western world.
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Fig 14: The Silk Route. Source: http://www.cais-soas.com.

In 329 BC, Alexander established the city of Alexandria in Egypt, which became a major staging point in the Silk Route. In 323 BC, Alexander’s successors, the Ptolemaic dynasty, took control of Egypt. They actively promoted trade with Mesopotamia, India, and East Africa through their Red Sea ports and over land. This was assisted by a number of intermediaries, especially the Nabataeans and other Arabs. Soon after the Roman conquest of Egypt in 30 BC, regular communications and trade between India, Southeast Asia, Sri Lanka, China, the Middle East, Africa and Europe blossomed on an unprecedented scale.

The Silk Route transformed into a highway for the cultural, commercial, technological, philosophical and religious exchanges between far flung kingdoms. Buddhism spread from the northern part of India into the farthest reaches of China. The Eastern Han emperor Mingdi is supposed to have sent a representative to India to discover more about this strange faith, and further missions returned bearing scriptures, and bringing with them Indian priests. Together with coveted merchandise, rock-cutting skills travelled eastwards along the Silk Road from India to China. Hundreds of rock-cut caves with statues of Buddha were built between 450 and 525 CE. Among the most famous ones are the Longmen Grottoes in China’s Henan province, a UNESCO World Heritage Site today. The Longmen grotto complex contains 2345 caves and niches, 2800 inscriptions, 43 pagodas and over 100,000 Buddhist images collected over various Chinese dynasties. The Yungang Grottoes near Datong in the province of Shanxi consists of 252 grottoes and more than 51,000 Buddha statues and statuettes, mainly constructed in the period between 460-525 CE.
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Fig 15: Yungang Grottoes, China. Source: Wikipedia /Felix Andrews
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Fig 16: Longmen Grottoes, China. Source: Wikipedia
There was also a westward flow of Eastern wisdom along the Silk Route. During the time around 320 BC, soon after the conquests of Alexander, the Mauryan Empire of India had extended its western borders to include nearly the whole of Afghanistan, and large portions of south-eastern Iran. Chandragupta Maurya had entered into a settlement and matrimonial alliance with the Greeks in 305 BC. Seleucus dispatched an ambassador, Megasthenes, to Chandragupta, and later Deimakos to his son Bindusara, at the Mauryan court at Pataliputra (modern Patna). The effect that this cultural exchange between two ancient nations had on the flowering of Greek philosophy and sciences during this period has been grossly underestimated by modern historians. In the Preface to the Vishnu Purana (translated 1940), the translator Horace Hayman Wilson, who was the Professor of Sanskrit at the Oxford University, writes:

“We know that there was an active communication between India and the Red sea in the early ages of the Christian era, and that doctrines, as well as articles of merchandise, were brought to Alexandria from the former. Epiphanius and Eusebius accuse Scythianus of having imported from India, in the second century, books on magic, and heretical notions leading to Manichæism; and it was at the same period that Ammonius instituted the sect of the new Platonists at Alexandria. The basis of his heresy was that true philosophy derived its origin from the eastern nations: his doctrine of the identity of God and the universe is that of the Vedas and Puráńas; and the practices he enjoined, as well as their object, were precisely those described in several of the Puráńas under the name of Yoga. His disciples were taught "to extenuate by mortification and contemplation the bodily restraints upon the immortal spirit, so that in this life they might enjoy communion with the Supreme Being, and ascend after death to the universal Parent." That these are Hindu tenets the following pages will testify; and by the admission of their Alexandrian teacher, they originated in India.”

It is, therefore, quite possible that the ancient faith of Shiva-Shakti may also have migrated westwards along these ancient trade routes during this time, and it was adopted by the Nabataeans. While it is possible that the Nabataeans may have worshipped Dushara prior to the construction of the monuments at Petra, there is very little evidence to support that. And even if they did worship Dushara prior to Petra, the stark similarities between the symbolic elements, rites and rituals of their faith with elements of Shiva-Shakti worship indicates that there must have been a cultural diffusion along the Silk Route which profoundly impacted and reinvigorated their religious beliefs.

The other intriguing question is, how did the Nabataeans suddenly acquire and master the technological and architectural sophistication necessary to execute the rock-cut monuments of Petra? Achieving such a level of finesse and perfection in rock-cut architecture takes generations. In the few centuries before Petra was established the Nabataeans had not constructed a single house in the desert, let alone grand temples. Is it possible that, like the ancient cult of Shiva-Shakti, the technology for building these rock-cut monuments was also transferred along the Silk Route?

It may be no coincidence that around the same time that the rock-cut monuments of Petra were being executed, sometime during the 3rd – 2nd century BC, an incredible array of 31 rock-cut cave temples were being carved into the sheer vertical side of a gorge, near a waterfall-fed pool, located in the hills of the Sahyadri mountains in western India, at a place called Ajanta, which is now a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

Ajanta is located 100 kilometers from the medieval town of Aurangabad (‘City of Gates’), which is situated right on the ancient Silk Route, and was a flourishing commercial center since time immemorial. In the ancient times, however, Ajanta itself used to be on the Silk Route. Buddhist missionaries used to accompany traders on busy international trade routes through India and the merchants, in turn, funded or even commissioned elaborate cave temple complexes that also offered lodging for traveling traders. Some of the more sumptuous temples included pillars, arches, and elaborate facades. Like Petra, the Ajanta caves had fallen out of use, and remained lost for centuries until 1819, when they were re-discovered by a British officer who was hunting a tiger in the region.

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Fig 17: Cave 9, Ajanta, India. Source: Wikipedia / Marcin Bialek
While in Petra only the exterior façade was decorated with sculptures, the cave temples at Ajanta are elaborately decorated, both outside and inside, with sculptures, paintings and murals, which are considered to be masterpieces of Buddhist religious art, and represent the most sophisticated rock-cut architecture of this period anywhere in the world. They mostly depict the Jataka tales that are stories of the Buddha's life in former existences as Bodhisattva. Many mythic elements from Hinduism are also depicted. Moreover, the interiors were designed to be functional, providing housing, worship halls, and even dining halls for the monks who lived there.

It is extremely improbable that two ancient cities located on the Silk Route, and worshipping deities that are culturally related, would happen to build some of the finest rock-cut temples of the world at around the same time, without having any cultural contact between them. Petra and Ajanta must be connected; and since the rock-cut architecture of India represents the highest achievements of engineering and aesthetics of that period, it can be supposed that the Silk Route acted as a conduit for the westward transfer of the Shiva-Shakti cult and rock-cut architectural skills, across the Arabian Peninsula, during the 3rd – 2nd centuries BC. However, since Petra stood at the crossroads of the trade route between the east and the west, there has been an amalgamation of various influences in its architecture. The Greco-Roman influence is apparent in the facades of many structures, which strengthened even further after the Roman occupation of Petra. Egyptian influences are also evident due to the presence of obelisks and funerary tombs throughout the city.

Many other rock-cut architectural sites were established along the Silk Route during this period. For instance, the monolithic Buddha statues and rock-cut monasteries of Bamiyan in Afghanistan were constructed between the 2nd - 7th centuries CE, while at Taq-e-Bostan in the Kermanshah Province of Iran a set of beautiful rock-cut caves and reliefs were built between the 3rd - 7th centuries CE. Both places are located right next to the ancient Silk Route.

The Nabateans built a few other cities in the desert, one of which is the archaeological site of ‘Shivta’ built in the 1st century BC on the 'Perfume Road' between Petra to Gaza. Like Petra, Shivta too was abandoned by the 8th – 9th century CE, after the ascendancy of Islam. A few kilometers from Shivta is located the ancient, biblical city of ‘Tel Sheva’, an archaeological site in southern Israel, which derives its name from a nearby ‘well’ or ‘water source’. The phonetic and symbolic similarities between these cities and ‘Shiva’ are obvious. In fact, the worship of Shiva-Shakti was widespread across the entire Middle East and West Asia, and penetrated deep into the farthest corners of Europe in the centuries before Christ. The biblical kingdom of ‘Sheba’ (Hebrew: Sh’va) believed to be in present day Yemen, as well as the archaeological site of ‘Shibham’ (Sanskrit: Shivam) located in Yemen, hint at the fact that entire kingdoms and cities were named after this deity.

It is unfortunate that these symbolisms and associations have been either overlooked or ignored by historians till now. What is even more regrettable is the fact that the Shiva Linga, and, in fact, any Pillar or Dolmen cult, has been uniformly interpreted as a form of phallic worship, when the information from the ancient sources clearly specify that the ‘pillar’ represents the ‘Cosmic Mountain’, the symbolic axis-mundi of the cosmos, around which the heavens revolve. It is a powerful cosmic symbol, fusing the divine masculine and feminine principles, whose meaning was universally understood by the ancient cultures, but whose real import has been lost to us now. Unless we begin to acknowledge the widespread presence of the Shiva-Shakti cult in large parts of the ancient world, and make a sincere attempt to understand the vast array of symbolisms associated with this ancient faith, we will continue to concoct a version of history that is illusory, fragmentary, and ultimately meaningless.

Posted by Bibhu Dev Misra at 11:14 AM


Link

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby johneeG » 20 Oct 2015 02:18

Ok, lets connect the dots:
Etruscan connection to Hindhuism - 800 BCE to 200 BCE: Link to post
Greek connection to Hindhuism is well documented. - 800 BCE to 200 BCE.
Petra, Jordan connection to Hindhuism - 300 BCE: Above post.
Roman connection to Hindhuism is also quite evident. Romans worshiped Mithra, the Sun God and Rome was established by Romulus(phonological similarity to 'Raama'). Moreover, Roman religion and culture was inherited from Etruscan and Greeks, both of whom seem to be closely connected to Hindhuism. - 300 BCE to 400 CE.
Armenian connection to Hindhuism - 400 CE: Link to post
Kaabah connection to Hindhuism - 400 CE: Link to post

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem » 20 Oct 2015 07:03

http://bigthink.com/ideafeed/can-spirit ... ce-coexist
What Happened When Einstein Met Indian Mystic Tagore

The nature of truth, reality, beauty and consciousness are the kind of weighty, meaty topics great minds love to discuss. In Germany in 1930, just such a conversation took place between Albert Einstein and Indian philosopher Rabindranath Tagore. Explored in the new book "Science and the Indian Tradition: When Einstein Met Tagore," by David L. Gosling, this dialogue wasn’t the usual religion vs. science debate you’re likely to see on CNN.Tagore says, “It is a relative world, depending for its relativity upon our consciousness.” His entire argument is that beauty and truth are completely dependent on humans observing them, that there is no beauty without an admirer, and no truth without a believer.Einstein disagrees with the truth aspect, stating that “the Pythagorean theorem in geometry states something that is approximately true, independent of the existence of man. Anyway, if there is a reality independent of man, there is also a Truth relative to this reality; and in the same way the negation of the first engenders a negation of the existence of the latter.”
On July 14, 1930, Albert Einstein welcomed into his home on the outskirts of Berlin the Indian philosopher, musician, and Nobel laureate Rabindranath Tagore. The two proceeded to have one of the most stimulating, intellectually riveting conversations in history, exploring the age-old friction between science and religion. Science and the Indian Tradition: When Einstein Met Tagore (public library) recounts the historic encounter, amidst a broader discussion of the intellectual renaissance that swept India in the early twentieth century, germinating a curious osmosis of Indian traditions and secular Western scientific doctrine.The following excerpt from one of Einstein and Tagore’s conversations dances between previously examined definitions of science, beauty, consciousness, and philosophy in a masterful meditation on the most fundamental questions of human existence.

EINSTEIN: Do you believe in the Divine as isolated from the world?
TAGORE: Not isolated. The infinite personality of Man comprehends the Universe. There cannot be anything that cannot be subsumed by the human personality, and this proves that the Truth of the Universe is human Truth.I have taken a scientific fact to explain this — Matter is composed of protons and electrons, with gaps between them; but matter may seem to be solid. Similarly humanity is composed of individuals, yet they have their interconnection of human relationship, which gives living unity to man’s world. The entire universe is linked up with us in a similar manner, it is a human universe. I have pursued this thought through art, literature and the religious consciousness of man.

EINSTEIN: There are two different conceptions about the nature of the universe: (1) The world as a unity dependent on humanity. (2) The world as a reality independent of the human factor.

TAGORE: When our universe is in harmony with Man, the eternal, we know it as Truth, we feel it as beauty.

EINSTEIN: This is the purely human conception of the universe.

TAGORE: There can be no other conception. This world is a human world — the scientific view of it is also that of the scientific man. There is some standard of reason and enjoyment which gives it Truth, the standard of the Eternal Man whose experiences are through our experiences.

EINSTEIN: This is a realization of the human entity.

TAGORE: Yes, one eternal entity. We have to realize it through our emotions and activities. We realized the Supreme Man who has no individual limitations through our limitations. Science is concerned with that which is not confined to individuals; it is the impersonal human world of Truths. Religion realizes these Truths and links them up with our deeper needs; our individual consciousness of Truth gains universal significance. Religion applies values to Truth, and we know this Truth as good through our own harmony with it.
EINSTEIN: Truth, then, or Beauty is not independent of Man?
TAGORE: No.
EINSTEIN: If there would be no human beings any more, the Apollo of Belvedere would no longer be beautiful.
TAGORE: No.
EINSTEIN: I agree with regard to this conception of Beauty, but not with regard to Truth.
TAGORE: Why not? Truth is realized through man.
EINSTEIN: I cannot prove that my conception is right, but that is my religion.
TAGORE: Beauty is in the ideal of perfect harmony which is in the Universal Being; Truth the perfect comprehension of the Universal Mind. We individuals approach it through our own mistakes and blunders, through our accumulated experiences, through our illumined consciousness — how, otherwise, can we know Truth?

EINSTEIN: I cannot prove scientifically that Truth must be conceived as a Truth that is valid independent of humanity; but I believe it firmly. I believe, for instance, that the Pythagorean theorem in geometry states something that is approximately true, independent of the existence of man. Anyway, if there is a reality independent of man, there is also a Truth relative to this reality; and in the same way the negation of the first engenders a negation of the existence of the latter.

TAGORE: Truth, which is one with the Universal Being, must essentially be human, otherwise whatever we individuals realize as true can never be called truth – at least the Truth which is described as scientific and which only can be reached through the process of logic, in other words, by an organ of thoughts which is human. According to Indian Philosophy there is Brahman, the absolute Truth, which cannot be conceived by the isolation of the individual mind or described by words but can only be realized by completely merging the individual in its infinity. But such a Truth cannot belong to Science. The nature of Truth which we are discussing is an appearance that is to say, what appears to be true to the human mind and therefore is human, and may be called maya or illusion.

EINSTEIN: So according to your conception, which may be the Indian conception, it is not the illusion of the individual, but of humanity as a whole.

TAGORE: The species also belongs to a unity, to humanity. Therefore the entire human mind realizes Truth; the Indian or the European mind meet in a common realization.

EINSTEIN: The word species is used in German for all human beings, as a matter of fact, even the apes and the frogs would belong to it.

TAGORE: In science we go through the discipline of eliminating the personal limitations of our individual minds and thus reach that comprehension of Truth which is in the mind of the Universal Man.
EINSTEIN: The problem begins whether Truth is independent of our consciousness.

TAGORE: What we call truth lies in the rational harmony between the subjective and objective aspects of reality, both of which belong to the super-personal man.

EINSTEIN: Even in our everyday life we feel compelled to ascribe a reality independent of man to the objects we use. We do this to connect the experiences of our senses in a reasonable way. For instance, if nobody is in this house, yet that table remains where it is.

TAGORE: Yes, it remains outside the individual mind, but not the universal mind. The table which I perceive is perceptible by the same kind of consciousness which I possess.

EINSTEIN: If nobody would be in the house the table would exist all the same — but this is already illegitimate from your point of view — because we cannot explain what it means that the table is there, independently of us.Our natural point of view in regard to the existence of truth apart from humanity cannot be explained or proved, but it is a belief which nobody can lack — no primitive beings even. We attribute to Truth a super-human objectivity; it is indispensable for us, this reality which is independent of our existence and our experience and our mind — though we cannot say what it means.

TAGORE: Science has proved that the table as a solid object is an appearance and therefore that which the human mind perceives as a table would not exist if that mind were naught. At the same time it must be admitted that the fact, that the ultimate physical reality is nothing but a multitude of separate revolving centres of electric force, also belongs to the human mind.

In the apprehension of Truth there is an eternal conflict between the universal human mind and the same mind confined in the individual. The perpetual process of reconciliation is being carried on in our science, philosophy, in our ethics. In any case, if there be any Truth absolutely unrelated to humanity then for us it is absolutely non-existing.It is not difficult to imagine a mind to which the sequence of things happens not in space but only in time like the sequence of notes in music. For such a mind such conception of reality is akin to the musical reality in which Pythagorean geometry can have no meaning. There is the reality of paper, infinitely different from the reality of literature. For the kind of mind possessed by the moth which eats that paper literature is absolutely non-existent, yet for Man’s mind literature has a greater value of Truth than the paper itself. In a similar manner if there be some Truth which has no sensuous or rational relation to the human mind, it will ever remain as nothing so long as we remain human beings.
EINSTEIN: Then I am more religious than you are!
TAGORE: My religion is in the reconciliation of the Super-personal Man, the universal human spirit, in my own individual being.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 20 Oct 2015 14:14

^^Dr David L. Gosling is the principal of Edwardes College, Peshawar University, Pakistan, and also teaches ecology in the University of Cambridge, where he was the first Spalding Fellow at Clare Hall. He has been the Director of Church and Society of the World Council of Churches, and is the author of Religion and Ecology in India and Southeast Asia.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Lalmohan » 20 Oct 2015 16:22

was thinking the other day that the association of the himalayas as the abode of the gods in the ancient texts may actually be from a time when the ice sheets were much further in to our plains and the saraswati flowed out of glacier snouts that perhaps were in the punjab

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby rishabhsood » 22 Oct 2015 04:30

Is there any link to a genuine argument about the effectiveness of ayurveda compared to allopathy and modern medical science. I had a debate with a medical practitioner according to whom allopathy is the last resort for Indians who are either extremely ignorant or treat allopathy or modern medical science inferior to ayurveda. As he says there are number of trials conducted worldwide on synthetic drugs and after years of research they have records regarding the trials and constituents. Such trials lack in ayurveda and moreover the practitioners prescribe allopathic drugs in their hospitals and clinics. Any lead ?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby RajeshA » 22 Oct 2015 14:12

rishabhsood ji,

I don't think that discussion belongs here!

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby johneeG » 23 Oct 2015 18:39

RajeshA wrote:
venug wrote:Resurrecting AIT, Manasatarangini's argument in support of AIT:
https://app.box.com/s/9t5jawga2ocoovvkhrsc


I think the major difference between AIT and OIT is a matter of terminology. Manasatarangini is willing to follow the AIT terminology, though I have utmost respect for him for his knowledge about our civilization and culture.

Many groups we consider Indians, AIT adherents simply call them outsiders. AIT adherents like to look at India with a much smaller geography while for OIT adherents, Indian geography includes current Pakistan, current Afghanistan and extended periphery including Tajikistan and Tarim Basin. AIT adherents like to put the center of Sanskrit as somewhere around the Caspian or Anatolia or Iran, whereas the OIT adherents, like me, see it as spreading from Saraswati-Yamuna-Ganga region.

In its core, the controversy is about where Sanskrit and the Vedic mythology and their initial forms developed - what the AIT adherents call as "Aryan culture". I would call it the Saraswati-Ganga culture. It is true that the "fair skin" component in India is dominant in Northwestern India, but that is simply a useless data point, because it does not mean that they contributed the language and culture to those further east and south in North India. I think they were the people who took the Saraswati culture Out-of-India and spread it across Eurasia.


I went through ManasTarangini's Arya Sutras and tried to critique it. I am posting my critique here:
ManasTarangini(MT) basically says that linguistic and genetic similarities are more important than Archeological(Sindhu-Saraswathi civilization). Personally, I neither agree or disagree with this view. To me, all these different fields have to brought together. Anyway, even if agree that linguistic and genetic similarities have higher precedence, then still it does not seem to prove AIT model.

I am only critiquing the relevant portions. There is lot of irrelevant material in Arya Sutras which I am ignoring.
ManasTarangini Arya Sutras wrote:• The core YV is associated with a more settled society and was most probably composed in large part using an Indo-Iranian precursor text in the Indian subcontinent: Note yajurveda has an Iranian cognate: the yasna-haptangaiti.


• The core RV and older sections of ancestral AV show signs of a mobile society which practiced a mixture of pastoralism and agriculture. This is generally consistent with the society of older layers of the Iranian Avesta.
How does it prove migration into India? It simply proves Out of India migration because the bigger branch is in India and smaller branch is in Iran. Actually, Eastern Iran was part and parcel of India at that time. So, it was not even outside India. Even if that place is considered outside India, then still it just shows that smaller groups migrated out of India. This is consistent with the Puranic and Vedhic narratives. They clearly say that Anus and others were nudged out of India by Purus and others. There was even a grand war called Dhasha-rajanya war.


ManasTarangini Arya Sutras wrote:• These texts show specific evidence for familiarity with regions closer to the Caspian/Black
Sea and more northern latitudes than bhArata:
I don't know which texts talk about caspian/black sea. I would expect the Vedhiks to be familiar with middle-east because of the presence of Assyrians(Asuras). Vedhiks were obviously familiar with Asuras. They had marital and business relations with them. And therefore, they would be familiar with middle-east in general. But, general familiarity is not same as intimacy. Vedhik texts show intimate knowledge only about Bhaarath. Not any other geography. Later, Vedhiks also had wars with Mlecchas(Anu of Babylonia). So, I would expect them to know about them quite well. Vedhas clears say that Anu went out of Bhaarath. So, I really don't see how Vedhas support any other theory except Out of India theory.
ManasTarangini Arya Sutras wrote:◦ familiarity and fear of snow/cold winters:
Himalayas
ManasTarangini Arya Sutras wrote:◦ memory of long dawns
???
ManasTarangini Arya Sutras wrote:◦ centrality of the fire cult:
fire is necessary in any conditions. Fire is necessary for cooking and protecting oneself in general. Therefore, its understandable that fire would become an important icon of worship. Most importantly, Fire cult shows metallurgy. A society involved metallurgy would be more inclined towards worship of fire. So, Vedhic society was a society of metallurgy.
ManasTarangini Arya Sutras wrote:◦ the natural habitat of Ephedra (soma),
Soma, its nature and location seem to be constantly changing with different sources giving different versions. That means there was no fixed definition of soma or its location. Anyway, I agree that Iran would be looked upon as a mythical area just as Himalyans were looked upon as a mythical area with supernatural twist. That means Iran and Himalayas formed the borders of India at the time and Vedhics lived within the India of these borders.
ManasTarangini Arya Sutras wrote:◦ the “fire in water legend”, which hints the characteristic geological setting with fossil hydrocarbon-powered mud volcanoes
This is simply volcanic eruptions in the sea. And it does not point towards middle-east. This actually points away from middle-east because there are no volcanoes in the sea in the middle-east. Such volcanoes exist in pacific and Indian ocean.
ManasTarangini Arya Sutras wrote:◦ linguistic evidence for contacts with Uralic languages.
This proves migration from India.
ManasTarangini Arya Sutras wrote:◦ close genetic relationship with Baltic and Slavic within Indo-European
This proves migration from India.
ManasTarangini Arya Sutras wrote:• The philological and linguistic evidence combined with genomic variation evidence suggests that the IA invasion was not likely to have been a product of elite dominance: it was a movement of a sizable population of IA speakers.
Philological and Linguistic evidence can support Out of India better than into India migration.


ManasTarangini Arya Sutras wrote:• Thus, the genomic variation evidence supports not negates AIT hypothesis, unlike what is spouted by those unfamiliar with such data in its original form


• An important aspect of this evidence is presence of shared variation with extreme northern Eurasian populations which is present in varNa populations, low in avarNa and nearly absent in several tribal groups.
It means that Varna groups migrated from India to Eurasia(middle-east and from there to Europe and central asia).


ManasTarangini Arya Sutras wrote:• This last piece of evidence makes it clear that the direction of migration was necessarily from outside India from regions beyond the Black and Caspian seas to India.
Why?

----
If someone can reach ManasTarangini, please show him the following two posts, I think they prove OIT conclusively:

johneeG wrote:^^^
The whole above paper seems to be based on Bhils, Gonds, and Khols being mentioned in Raamayana. Did the paper give any reference where they are mentioned?(So that, it can be cross-checked).
-----
X-post:

Lets see the various groups that were seen as antagonistic to ancient Hindhus:

- Dhasyus - mentioned in Vedhas.
- Asuras - mentioned in Puraanas, MB, Raamayana and Vedhas.
- Dhaithyas - mentioned in Puraanas, MB, Raamayana.
- Dhaanavas - mentoned in Puraanas and MB.
- Raakshasas - mentioned in Puraanas, MB, Raamayana.
- Pishachas - mentioned in Puraanas, MB, Raamayana.
- Yavanas - mentioned in Puraanas, MB, Raamayana.
- Mlecchas - mentioned in Puraanas and MB. Mostly, the puraanas mention them.

Dhaithyas & Asuras:
Now, Dhaithyas are sons of Dhithi. Asuras are also sons of Dhithi. Most probably, Asuras are same as Dhaithyas. However, initially, Asuras were not seen as opponents. Infact, the ancestors of the famed Puru are Asuras from mother's side. Yayathi married the daughter of Vrusha-parvan and the daughter of Shukra. Vrushaparvan is the the king of Asuras at the time. And Shukra was the priest of Asuras at the time. Asuras were similar to Suras in all aspects. The only problem was political rivalry.

The Assyrians had a god called Ashur i.e. Asura. So, it seems that they were Asuras as far as ancient Hindhus were concerned. So, they were similar to ancient Hindhus in all aspects. There were political differences with them. Except that, all others aspects of culture and civilization were similar. Infact, there were even blood and marital relations.

Dhaanavas:
Dhaanavas are sons of Dhanu. Dhaanavas seem to be a slighly later category than Asuras. Original rivalry was Sura-Asura. Dhaanavas were the allieas of Asuras. Dhaanavas are white and fled to sea. That would put them as nordic or Ionian.

Raakshasa, Yaksha & Pishacha:
Pishacha:
the word 'Pishacha' seems to be related to Pishitha-Ashana. It is generally translated as meat-eater. But, many groups seem to be eating meat. So, this Pishitha-Ashana seems to mean cannibal who eats all kinds of meat including the meat of human beings. Yakshas, Gandharvas, and Pishachas were ruled by Kubera who has his capital city in Alakapuri which is in himalayas. Kubera is the lord of northern direction. That also shows that these people lived in the north. I think that Pishachas refers to cannibals residing to the extreme north starting from northern Himalayas.

We are told that Paishachi language became extinct by the time of Gunadhya. Gunadhya's story has the mention of Vikrama. Gunadhya wrote his work during Shaathavahana rule in Paishachi. Shaathvahana rule seems to be around 1000 BCE. So, cannibals and their language became extinct in Bhaarath by the time of 1000 BCE. Originally, they seem to reside in the northern areas of Himalayas and further north.

In simple terms, it could means that cannibalism went out of mode by 1000 BCE and those people became civilized. Their outdated language may have become extinct. The language of Paisachi may have developed further into other daughter languages and the older language may have become extinct. The extinction language could also mean migration. But, I think its lesser possibility.


Raakshasa:
The word 'Raakshasa' seems to have been initially a good connotation. Later, it seems to have acquired negative connotations. General depiction is that the Raakshasas live in jungles. Though lanka is the kingdom of Raakshasas. The difference between Raakshasas and ancient Hindhus was: Raakshasas were really really dark. While, ancient Hindhus were slightly dark...dusky, brown, light dark. However, there were many ancient Hindhus who were more darker than others like Raama or Krushna. The word Krushna means black. The word Krushna has been applied to Krushna son of Vasudheva, Krushna Dhwaipayana i.e. Vyasa, Krushna i.e. daughter of of Dhurpadha, ...etc. That means all of them were darker than others. Yet, Krushna son of Vasudheva and Krushna daughter of Dhrupadha were considered very beautiful. So, darkness was not a symptom of uncivilizedness or ugliness. It seems that initially Raakshasas were considered good. So, strictly speaking there really was no racial or religious or political difference between Raakshasas and anceint Hindhus. Infact Raakshashas along with Yakshas were considered part of ancient Hindhu group i.e. Aryan. At some point, Raakshasas seem to have joined hands with Pishachas. That made Raakshasas also as enemies.

Yaksha:
Yaksha and Pishacha seem to be connected with same geography. Both seem to hail from north i.e. really really north. Yakshas were considered beautiful and stylish.

Raakshasas, Yakshas, and Pishachas were led by Kubera. For a brief period, Asuras and Raakshas were together led by Ravana, but it again reverted to Kubera.

Mahabhaaratha's explanation:
MB tells us that Yayathi had 5 sons. And he gave the kingship of his kingdom to Puru who was the youngest son. The other sons had the following fate:

- Yadhu - his descendents/followers did not follow a system of kingship. Yadhu's descendents followed a system of democracy rather than kingship. The followers of Yadhu were also cowherds or shepherds.

- Thurvasu - he became the leader of Yavanas. Yavanas did not follow a marriage system. And they were seen as generally uncivilized(An-Aryan). The word 'Yavana' or 'Javana' means fast which perhaps indicates the horses.

- Anu - he became the leader of Mlecchas. Mlecchas are people who did not worship fire i.e. they did not perform Yagnyas.

- Dhruhyu - he became the leader of Bojas. Bojas supposedly ruled in watery areas.(I don't quite understand this).

Yavanas:
Yavanas did not follow a proper marriage system. Yavanas are described as living in the north-west. Yavanas are described along with Kaambhojas(Iran) and Bahlika(Bactria). So, they seem to belong to nearby geography.

So, what is the geography of Yavanas?
Gaandhara is Afghanisthan. Kekaya is Pakhtunisthan. Sindh is Sindh. Sauvira seems to be Balochisthan. Yavana region is somewhere in between Kekaya, Gaandhara and Bahlika. Either the Yavanas are to the south-east of Gaandhara or to the north-west of Gaandhara.

The Yavanas seem to be nomadic tribes of the north-west with horses. They didn't have any civilization. They didn't have any navy.

Yavanas & Ionians:
Yavanas are generally assumed to be Greeks. The mainstream western historians(who push AIT themes directly or indirectly) seem to suggest that the word 'Ionian' is a corruption of the word 'Yavana'. And that the word 'Yavana' meant greeks because they had 'horses'. I don't think this reasoning is correct.

Firstly, the Ionian civilization was mostly a naval civilization. While, the Yavanas seem to be landlocked. The greeks didn't seem to have many horses because their regions didn't have them. Spain has horses in Europe and Greeks didn't seem to rule spanish areas. Even Romans came to control Spain much later after defeating Carthage. Only then, Romans could field superior cavalry. Until then, Romans had a very inferior cavalry. Generally speaking, Europe doesn't have horses and have traditionally depended on navy and infantry. So, greeks can't be an exception. The greeks fielded Phalanax and hoplites. Both are infantry based army divisions. So, greeks were not famous for their horses. They were famous for their navy and infantry if at all. So, why would they be called 'yavanas'. The only possibility is that the Yavanas of the north-west Bhaarath went to the islands of greece and settled there. This possiblity is more plausible. But, then how did they develop navy? Developing a navy is not easy and requires a lot of tech.

But, there is one interesting thing though: the mycenians were before the Ionians. Later these mycenians became Ionians. Mycenians started off as pirates. Phonicians also seem to have started off with piracy. The question remains if the Yavanas went to the greek islands and settled there, how did they develop the navy?

Mlecchas:
The ancient Hindhus' rivalry with Mlecchas was religious. Because mlecchas did not worship the fire. Their leader was Anu. Asuras, Dhaanavas and Raakshasas cannot be mlecchas because they all seem to perform Yagnyas unlike the Mlecchas.

The category of Mlecchas seems to be slightly later than Asuras, Dhaanavas, Raakshasa, Pishaachas, ...etc. So, mleccha group seems to have come slightly later.

Now, who are this mleccha? I think the crucial clue is: their leader was Anu.

I don't know if anyone had ever made this observation before, but I discovered something amazing. Maybe many people know about it. Anyway here it is: Ancient Babylonia has an epic called Gilgamesh which talks about Anunnaki who are descendents of Anu. They worship Marduk. Marduk's character is not properly understood by the mainstream historians. I think Marduk is related to Maruth i.e. wind god.

So, Mlecchas seem to be Babylonians who worshiped Maruth i.e. wind god.


Dhasharajanya War and Dhasyus:



Dhasha-Rajanya War:


Vedhas talk about a grand war called Dhasha-Rajanya war.

Participants of Dhasha-Rajanya war were:
Alinas - One of the opponents defeated by Sudhaasa at the Dasarajna. They are related to the Purus.
Bhrigus - They are related to the composition of the Atharva Veda. Bhrigus seem to have resided in the Kutch area. Bhrigus were also worshipers of Vishnu. Lakshmi is called Bhaargavi.
Bhalanas - Some scholars have argued that the Bhalanas lived in the Bolan Pass area.
Matsya - are only mentioned in the RV (7.18.6), but later in connection with the Śālva. The Kingdom of Mathsya is one of the Kingdoms in the north-west.
Parshu - Parshu seem to be Parshuraama faction. Parshu-Raama is supposed to be in the Avanthi region.
Paanis: wealthy merchants. The word 'Panya'(i.e. coin) seems to be related to Paani.
Purus: The heros of Rig Vedha. They ruled Kuru-Paanchala.
Druhyus: (RV I 1.126.7).
Anu: The Anus are descendents of Anu i.e. Annunaki.
Turvasas: (RV 7.18) Yavanas.
Shivas: (RV 7.18.6). Worshipers of Shiva.
Yaksuss: (RV 7.18). Either Yaksha or Yadhu.
Aja: he seems to be the ruler of Kaashi-Koshala.

The fight against Sudhaasa took place in the north-west on the banks of Parushini river. Some identify it as Ravi. Most of the kings seem to be from North-west. So, broadly, this seems to be a grand-fight between alliance of the west versus alliance of the east. The east seems to be led by the Purus while the western alliance seems to be led by Anus and Dhruhyus. From priestly class, Purus patronized the Vashishta and Vishwamithra while their opponents patronized Bhrigu.

BTW, the exact details about Sudhaasa are very confused. Different scriptures seem to tell us conflicting lineages.

Dhasha-Rajanya war is important because this seem to have forced certain factions to emigrate from Bhaarath. So, Anunnaki seem to have migrated to Babylonia after this war.


Dhasyu:

RV 7.18 talks about Dhasharajanya war. Then RV 7.19 talks about Dhasyus. Its almost like a continuation. So, I think there is some connection between these two.

The word Dhasyu means 'robber' or 'pirate'. Now, the Dhasyus seem to have been fought after fighting the the Dhasha-rajanya war. So, I think the 'Dhasyus' referred in the 7.19 were robbers in the north-west. The robbers in the north-west would be yavanas. RV 7.18 mentions Thurvasu. MB tells us that Thurvasu was the leader of Yavanas. Then RV 7.19 tells us about Dhasyus.


In summary,

- Asuras were Assyrians, Akkadians, Mesopotamians, ...etc.Ancient Iraq before the babylonian empire. The middle-east continued to have several of these kingdoms, so these groups also continued for a long time. I think this whole group starting from Iraq and upto Syria was considered as Asura.
- Dhaanavas were allies of Asuras. Dhaanavas were white and fled to sea. So, Dhaanavas were nordic or Ionian.
- Pishachas seem to be cannibal tribes residing in the northern himalayas and further north.
- Yakshas and Gandharvas also resided in the himalayan regions.
- Raakshas had become like Pishachas i.e. cannibals.
- Yavanas were the north-western uncivilized tribes with horses.
- Mlecchas were babylonians i.e. Iraq and descendents of Anu. Religious rivalry with them. Mlecchas worshiped Marduk or Maruth unlike fire or Yagnya. Remember that Maruths were accepted later as part of the pantheon. Originally, Maruths were sons of Dhithi(i.e. Asuras) who were accepted later.
- Dhasharajanya war happened in 2000 BCE- 1900 BCE. Dhasharajanya war forced certain factions to emigrate from Bhaarath.
- Dhasyus were pirates or robbers. They seem to be Yavanas led by Thurvasu.

The original MB would have happened around 2300 BCE, if it actually happened. That means that the MB war is older than Dhasha-rajanaya war. By DhashaRajanya war, Shiva was already known.

----
For reference:
Image

Link to post
johneeG wrote:X-posting:
RajeshA wrote:I was wondering about the word Mlechccha.

Could it be that it derives somehow from Mul + cchod (leaving base), or some Sanskrit variant of it. Could it be a word used for people in general who LEFT Aryavarta earlier, thus losing contact with the Vedic traditions?

Could it mean "Foreignized Indians" rather than just "Foreign"?

What do gurus think?


johneeG wrote:
Yes, saar. Its such a strange word. I think its connected to Accha. Accha means 'nice' or 'clean'. I think 'mleccha' is sort of reverse of 'accha'.

It seems there is a verb called 'mleccha' also. Link It means 'speaking indistinctly'.

There is another verb connected to 'mlai'. Link It seems to mean 'cast down', 'fade', 'vanish', ...etc. So, its definitely possible that the word 'mleccha' might mean people who 'vanished', or 'faded out' or were cast down. This seems to indicate some defeated people who vanished. And who spoke 'indistinctly'.


RajeshA wrote:johneeG garu,

I think the "academic view" is that Mlechcchas were


1) of non-Indian ethnicity
2) coming into India from outside India
3) speaking non-Sanskrit or non-Indic based languages,
4) non-Arya
5) non-Vedic, devoid of Brahmins
6) fallen or degraded
7) defeated
8 ) pushed out of India in past

I think the word for 3) would be Barbaras if there is no specific name for the race.

The issue is whether we can exclude 1) and 3) from definition of Mlechccha. It would help against AIT.

johneeG wrote:
RajeshA saar,

I don't know if 3) is directly related to 1). I think 3) could easily support OIT.

Lets consider all the data points:
- Dhasharajanya war tells us that the war was won by Sudhasa because of a flood brought by Indhra. They are presumed to have run away to some quarters.
- MB tells us that Anu was the ruler of Mlecchas. And that he was not made the successor of Yayathi.
- The word 'mleccha' means 'speak indistinctly'. There is a verb for it as well. The word 'mlai' means 'fade away' or 'cast down'.
- Gilgamesh tells us that Anunnaki(i.e. descendents of Anu) lived in Babylonia.
- Old Testament tells us that Babylonia is named after the 'tower of babel'. The 'tower of babel' story goes that earlier there used to be same language but the god(rain god) brought floods and made the 'language indistinct.' The word 'babel' means 'speak indistinctly'.After the flood, there was a west-ward migration.

I think all these data points are nicely fitting together. Each of them is supporting what the other is saying.

So, broadly, they are all saying that there was a flood. And the language became 'babbling' due to the scattering of the flood. Different sources are telling us the same story. Vedhas, MB, Gilgamesh, and Old Testament.

Actually, the word 'mleccha' seems to be directly related to 'babel' i.e. 'babbling' which is related to 'Babylonia'.


Link to post

Link to post

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 23 Oct 2015 20:29

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WaenzbSJwk

The Indo-Japanese connection - must watch

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby A_Gupta » 25 Oct 2015 00:02

Koenraad Elst:
http://koenraadelst.blogspot.com/2015/1 ... hapar.html
It gets worse, however, when a scholar simply ignores the findings in adjacent fields. This is what you see in the debates on Vedic chronology and the Aryan invasion. Thus, most historians laugh at the ignorant claims of some self-styled “history-rewriters” in the Hindu camp, who put the Mahabharata war in the 4th millennium BCE. These base themselves on scripture, treating it as a literal record, and date events in the light of a Puranic tradition dating the beginning of Kali-Yuga to 3102 BCE. To be sure, the doctrine of four world ages is as old as the epic, and even much older: judging from its presence among the Greeks and Germans, and even as far as the Mayas, it must have existed since distant pre-Vedic days. But the timespans attributed to them are far younger, betraying an estimate of the precession cycle discovered in ca. 150 BCE. These timespans are in thousands of years, not hundreds of thousands of years as in the Puranas. So the Mahabharata war can reasonably be estimated to about 1400 BCE, which is in tune with the genealogical data in the Puranas, their most historically reliable part.

But what is more, and now I come to my point, this scripturalist chronology flies in the face of the findings of several auxiliary sciences. Thus, chariot warfare is central to the Mahabharata’s plot: it cannot be an addition by a later editor. Now, we know through archaeology that war chariots (as distinct from slow carts) originated only in the 3rd millennium, and that the heyday of chariot warfare was the 2nd half of the 2nd millennium, before cavalry warfare took over. The war between the Egyptians and the Hittites, the Biblical pursuit of the Israelites by the Pharaoh, the Trojan war, all took place around 1200 BCE. To say that the Mahabharata battle took place in 3139, as traditionalists do, would imply that chariot technology took all of 1600 years to travel to West Asia. But we know that military technology travels very fast, because generals eager for victory quickly adopt whatever innovation is in sight. Moreover, it implies that the Indians had a more advanced metallurgy (needed to produce chariots, as well as swords and shields) than archaeology can trace for the 32nd century BCE.

Another auxiliary science is archaeo-astronomy. Among the astronomical circumstances described in the epic is the full moon near the star Magha/Regulus after the winter solstice. Now, this star, in its slow precessional movement of 1° per 71 years, has crossed the solstitial axis in ca. 2300. In 3139 BCE, it was some 12° before the solstice, whereas in ca. 1400 BC, it was some 13° past it, as required by the description in the epic. So, the traditionalist chronology ignores the contribution of astronomy.

Prof. Thapar will probably agree with me that traditionalist chronology is bad science because it ignores the findings of these other sciences. However, established chronology including her own school suffers from the same flaw. Thus, we have several astronomical data in Vedic literature that are incompatible with the established chronology. In the Kaushitaki Brahmana, dating from the late Rig-Vedic period, this solstice position of Magha is registered, so that points to ca. 2300. But according to her, this would mean at least 800 years before the Vedic seers started the composition of the Vedic hymns, and at least a thousand years before the Kaushitaki Brahmana was composed. The definitely post-Vedic book Vedanga Jyotisha gives two independent astronomical data that both necessitate its being written in the 14th century BCE, again centuries before its conventional date.

She has tried to explain this away by opining that the authors must have described reminiscences of a earlier positions passed down by their ancestors. But this is impossible: the Vedanga Jyotisha is a hands-on work on observational astronomy, it tells priests where to look in the sky when they want to conduct their rituals. What a strange world it would be, where everybody describes ancestral observations but no one describes what he himself actually sees. So, her escape clause is an explicit admission of what too many historians only do silently: ignore the findings of an important science adjacent and relevant to history-writing. The situation is that a handful of astronomical data consistently support a higher chronology, that not one of them supports the established low chronology, and that nonetheless most scholars in India and abroad proceed as if these data were not a permanent challenge to their conventional chronology.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby ashish raval » 25 Oct 2015 03:30

^^ don't agree that military technology will always travel fast when it is superior. It has been known that primitive use of gunpowder started 1.5 millennium ago in China before everyone else started using it so basing facts on questionable assumptions should be challenged.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby rishabhsood » 25 Oct 2015 03:39

RajeshA wrote:rishabhsood ji,

I don't think that discussion belongs here!



Rajeshji kindly guide me to the related forum <request hai ji>

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby RajeshA » 25 Oct 2015 13:57

rishabhsood wrote:
RajeshA wrote:rishabhsood ji,

I don't think that discussion belongs here!



Rajeshji kindly guide me to the related forum <request hai ji>


Perhaps one of these threads, may be useful


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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Agnimitra » 27 Oct 2015 00:09

JE Menon wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WaenzbSJwk

The Indo-Japanese connection - must watch

Ironic error message in the US: "This video contains content from External Affairs Ministry of India. It is not available in your country."

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 27 Oct 2015 12:07

^^that's weird, must be some block from the US side? Am pretty sure the MEA does not put such limitations itself.

But yes, ironic indeed.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby panduranghari » 31 Oct 2015 12:39

NASA link images from Kazakhstan

A new front of AIT?

The photos show at least 260 different earthworks — mounds, trenches and ramparts — which make up five basic shapes; among them a circle and a swastika. When the images were first spotted in 2007, on Google Earth, wild rumours circulated that the sites were designed by Nazis or even aliens.........


...... “The idea that foragers could amass the numbers of people necessary to undertake large-scale projects — like creating the Kazakhstan geoglyphs — has caused archaeologists to deeply rethink the nature and timing of sophisticated large-scale human organization as one that predates settled and civilized societies,” said Persis Clarkson, an archaeologist at the University of Winnipeg, who viewed some of Mr Dey’s images.

“Everything is linked through the cult of the sun,” Mr Dey told The New York Times.

He now hopes to create an operations centre at the site, for further research.

“We cannot dig up all the mounds. That would be counterproductive,” he said. “We need modern technologies, like they have in the West

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem » 01 Nov 2015 06:05

HARVARD RESEARCHER SHANMUGAMURTHY LAKSHMANAN: A NEW MODEL OF SCIENCE
http://www.synergies-journal.com/synerg ... lakshmanan

How can an energy body or energy be explained by modern science?

We need a paradigm shift approach to understand energy and that is luckily happening today. So far Western approaches on energy were limited by a cultural bias. When ancient science becomes inclusive in the broader domain of ‘Science’, then the understanding of energy will become clear to the West.

In the West or for anyone with only Western education, ancient Science needs to be relearned starting from its fundamentals. This should be a separate curriculum incorporated in the modern education system. Schools should include ancient science from a kindergarten level, so that it can be integrated in the future. Energy levels need to be understood by experience also. Experiments should be conducted in school so that students can feel these and explore what the techniques are. Or what the mental zone of frequency is that we need to understand energy etc. Now, if we pick chakras, nadis, energy bodies such as Astral and Causal bodies as fundamental axioms then it is possible to explain the phenomena of energy. When already something is constructed you don’t need new ways to explain this, we just need to accept it and then do experiments to prove or disprove it.

How can a bliss body and concepts like the spirit be explained by modern science?

Organizations such as the Society for Scientific Exploration are encouraging such studies now. I am also part of it. There are many such things that can be explained using modern Quantum Mechanics. However, there is a limitation in this approach due to the uncertainty principle. Therefore, there is a need for bringing the Ancient Axioms back into the picture to explain bliss body, spirit etc.,

How can the five elements be explained by modern science?

Simple ‘Femto-Technology’. In one of my paper titled “Ayurveda-Ancient Sceince and Technology- A quantum paradigm shift” I have clearly illustrated the construct (you can read it here).

Can you explain how modern evolution theory and quantum mechanics is also explained by the Vedic tradition?

When the essence of Eastern philosophy was discussed by Eastern scholars with some eminent scientists from the West, the core concept/philosophy was misunderstood. This later reappeared as the modern quantum mechanics but in that the connection to consciousness was removed, making it very materialistic.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Virendra » 01 Nov 2015 14:48

rishabhsood wrote:Is there any link to a genuine argument about the effectiveness of ayurveda compared to allopathy and modern medical science. I had a debate with a medical practitioner according to whom allopathy is the last resort for Indians who are either extremely ignorant or treat allopathy or modern medical science inferior to ayurveda. As he says there are number of trials conducted worldwide on synthetic drugs and after years of research they have records regarding the trials and constituents. Such trials lack in ayurveda and moreover the practitioners prescribe allopathic drugs in their hospitals and clinics. Any lead ?

Perhaps this paper came out for you only :)
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep15786#introduction
Please don't reply. Lets not derail the thread.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Agnimitra » 02 Nov 2015 22:30

JE Menon wrote:^^that's weird, must be some block from the US side? Am pretty sure the MEA does not put such limitations itself.

But yes, ironic indeed.

You are right. Cultiral content being published by MEA is being blocked by the US on YouTube.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Satya_anveshi » 02 Nov 2015 22:41

But why is there is no counter to it nor other versions of it available? No enterprising individual taking parts of the same video and creating like million of other videos of similar content?

Why is it one youtube video or nothing?

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Agnimitra » 02 Nov 2015 23:40

Agnimitra wrote:
JE Menon wrote:^^that's weird, must be some block from the US side? Am pretty sure the MEA does not put such limitations itself.

But yes, ironic indeed.

You are right. Cultiral content being published by MEA is being blocked by the US on YouTube.

Tweeted here
https://twitter.com/Parikramah/status/6 ... 4907465728

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem » 05 Nov 2015 07:59

Watch from 8 Minute onward

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Rony » 06 Nov 2015 15:39

Indus valley script

Mary Settegast found this relationship (below) between an Indus valley inscription and an inscription above a cave painting. The European cave inscription is of obvious Indus Valley origin, 2300 BC judging from the evolution of the sign Siva . The inference here is the Sanskrit sentence became European and Western Greek alphabets. The sentence structure is the same as the second and third lines of the Kabul manuscript.

Image
Image
Image

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Prem » 08 Nov 2015 07:28

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/calcu ... y-1.632433
Calculus created in India 250 years before Newton: study
(old news but still)
For years, English scientist Isaac Newton and German philosopher Gottfried Leibniz both claimed credit for inventing the mathematical system sometime around the end of the seventeenth century.Now, a team from the universities of Manchester and Exeter says it knows where the true credit lies — and it's with someone else completely.The "Kerala school," a little-known group of scholars and mathematicians in fourteenth century India, identified the "infinite series" — one of the basic components of calculus — around 1350.Dr. George Gheverghese Joseph, a member of the research team, says the findings should not diminish Newton or Leibniz, but rather exalt the non-European thinkers whose contributions are often ignored."The beginnings of modern mathsis usually seen as a European achievement but the discoveries in medieval India between the fourteenth and sixteenth centuries have been ignored or forgotten," he said. "The brilliance of Newton's work at the end of the seventeenth century stands undiminished — especially when it came to the algorithms of calculus."But other names from the Kerala School, notably Madhava and Nilakantha, should stand shoulder to shoulder with him as they discovered the other great component of calculus — infinite series."He argues that imperialist attitudes are to blame for suppressing the true story behind the discovery of calculus."There were many reasons why the contribution of the Kerala school has not been acknowledged," he said. "A prime reason is neglect of scientific ideas emanating from the Non-European world, a legacy of European colonialism and beyond."However, he concedes there are other factors also in play."There is also little knowledge of the medieval form of the local language of Kerala, Malayalam, in which some of most seminal texts, such as the Yuktibhasa, from much of the documentation of this remarkable mathematics is written," he admits.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby johneeG » 08 Nov 2015 07:33

The fact that both Newton and Leibniz 'discovered' calculus at the same time tells you that they discovered it from Kerala. Vasco Da Gama landed in Kerala and went back to Europe in 1500. Both Newton and Leibniz discovered calculus around 1700. Europe was interested in ancient knowledge at the time. Newton himself has talked about ancient knowledge. Voltaire(who is a contemporary of Newton and Leibniz) was praising India at the time. It was the start of Indo Mania in Europe.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Lalmohan » 11 Nov 2015 16:01

and many english traders had started arriving in the mughal court and were sending back stories of the fabulous wealth and power, as well as intellectual capital

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby member_27987 » 27 Nov 2015 16:15

Could some knowledge person please give a good rebuttal to https://www.saddahaq.com/who-are-we-4471 because I don't have the capability to do it myself.

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 27 Nov 2015 20:15

EswarPrakash wrote:Could some knowledge person please give a good rebuttal to https://www.saddahaq.com/who-are-we-4471 because I don't have the capability to do it myself.

Done
https://www.saddahaq.com/storydraft/f5f ... 667/rev/39

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby Pulikeshi » 28 Nov 2015 04:12

http://news.sciencemag.org/archaeology/2015/04/how-europeans-evolved-white-skin

The study revealed that a massive migration of Yamnaya herders from the steppes north of the Black Sea may have brought Indo-European languages to Europe about 4500 years ago.


Then, the first farmers from the Near East arrived in Europe; they carried both genes for light skin. As they interbred with the indigenous hunter-gatherers, one of their light-skin genes swept through Europe, so that central and southern Europeans also began to have lighter skin.


How Farming Changed European Genome

Here we report a genome-wide scan for selection using ancient DNA, capitalizing on the largest ancient DNA data set yet assembled: 230 West Eurasians who lived between 6500 and 300 BC, including 163 with newly reported data. The new samples include, to our knowledge, the first genome-wide ancient DNA from Anatolian Neolithic farmers, whose genetic material we obtained by extracting from petrous bones, and who we show were members of the population that was the source of Europe’s first farmers. We also report a transect of the steppe region in Samara between 5600 and 300 BC, which allows us to identify admixture into the steppe from at least two external sources. We detect selection at loci associated with diet, pigmentation and immunity, and two independent episodes of selection on height.

The original paper can be read read only - link is in the article...

There are at least 5 or so unique characteristics of farming cultures that can be used to trace the direction of population flow...
The tragedy of Euro-centric research means a focus on skin color and tallness - :evil: :(
It is a shame that there are no funding agencies in India that can carry out these projects to get better insight...

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby JE Menon » 28 Nov 2015 09:37

shiv wrote:
EswarPrakash wrote:Could some knowledge person please give a good rebuttal to https://www.saddahaq.com/who-are-we-4471 because I don't have the capability to do it myself.

Done
https://www.saddahaq.com/storydraft/f5f ... 667/rev/39


Doc have they published it? Tried both links, no sign of your comment...

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Re: Out-of-India - From Theory to Truth: Part 2

Postby shiv » 28 Nov 2015 14:09

JE Menon wrote:
Doc have they published it? Tried both links, no sign of your comment...

Can't see it. Nevermind. I was simply copy paste from the book I am working on. These morons need a book worth of rebuttals. I haven't decided whether to make it one ebook or multiple blog posts. I prefer dumping the whole book in one go


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